Maybe Red Team are dum-dums
#lore-and-universe
gilded mason
stoic hamlet
I don’t consider that fight scene canon
gilded mason
Neural physics
stoic hamlet
Hehehe
gilded mason
||Magic||
sonic ridge
In halo 3 in the cutscene after the flood why is arbiter and Johnson like basically trading weapons
gilded mason
To facilitate inter-species unity, I imagine
sonic ridge
Alright
versed helm
Well, i don't think they really had a chance vs Atriox honestly
Also, Red Team got out of Cryo not long after the battle, so that could of been a reason
And atriox had that weapon that basically incapacitates the foe while you are using it, I do think it was a little unrealistic they would of just rushed him one at a time, espescially because Jerome is supposed to be one of the better Leaders in the Spartan-IIs
stoic hamlet
Also the ending of the fight where Alice just.....stands there with a loaded BR and a clean shot at his exposed head
limpid meadow
The first Spartan to rush Atriox was likely doing so to trying to pull out Douglas away from Atriox. The second had been disarmed and only had a knife. Have to CQC in that case. After that, Douglas was already at Atriox's feet, so, yeah.
humble yacht
I think Atriox has more experience fighting spartans than Red Team had fighting Brutes
limpid meadow
Hard to justify Alice's action at the end. Maybe she was out of ammo, maybe she suspect he might have an energy shield?
They do got a notification that more hostiles are on the way and it's possible she wants or needs to conserve ammo.
humble yacht
Though after reviewing the cutscene and seeing how he just overpowers them, I think it would have been better to see him utilize traps and such in addition to his strength to take them out. Something to example his experience in dealing with the "demons"
limpid meadow
I don't think Atriox has much experience with Spartans.
Via his dialogue we can see that this encounter confirmed his suspicions that Spartans were just humans under that armor.
humble yacht
halopedia says his early work with the covenant involved him hunting and killing spartans
limpid meadow
Oh.
Well, it says he was charged with hunting them down.
Not that he actually encountered them and killed them.
Based on his dialogue in HW2, I would guess that he may have some knowledge of Spartans, but not much direct experience.
humble yacht
i would expect that he has some spartan kills under his belt
limpid meadow
I doubt it
humble yacht
but HW2 may be the first time he saw underneath the helmet
limpid meadow
But we can't really go much further here. Much of Atriox's past is undetailed.
obsidian thistle
Still interesting he was like... 15 during the events of Silent Storm.
(Where he was there yet was asked by 343i to be removed from the book)
last anchor
Pretty sure it did have night vision
Also, the way he talks in-game makes it seem like hes only ever heard of them.
"Just a man", like he's dismissing the Covenant's title "demon" as he has the rest of their stuff.
vague scroll
Someone doubts the capacity for a giant monster to be silent... clearly they haven’t met Bigfoot.
gestures vigorously to conspiracy theory cork board
limpid meadow
@versed helm Atriox was already in the research center. All he would have to do is not move until Red Team got close enough to him.
limpid meadow
Spartans aren't perfect. They lose sometimes. It's as simple as that.
Because Atriox got the drop on them.
proud quail
doesnt atriox have freaky augments going for him
limpid meadow
He took one out immediate, then disarmed the other two
proud quail
iirc his left hand is a whole power fist on its own?
proud quail
meh, what's the difference
limpid meadow
That's why he could crush Douglas' shoulder
proud quail
and it really isnt good to sit down and go "why did a bunch of spartans got beat by a single guy?" outside of like
dramatic tension
a lot of things in halo's lore can be explained by just dramatic tension
limpid meadow
There's no problem with analyzing a scene like this.
I hate reverting to real-world reasoning if it's avoidable.
proud quail
why did heretic leader fired first instead of letting 343 explain things? dramatic tension. why didnt arbiter just dispatch johnson and miranda? dramatic tension
limpid meadow
But yeah, sometimes you have to. Such as with the Sentinel behavior against Enduring Conviction.
The Heretic Leader shooting is very easily explainable without reverting to "dramatic tension"
The Arbiter was unarmed when he encountered Miranda and Johnson.
full forge
why was he unarmed tho lmao
proud quail
idk, it always bothered me that you dont let the very holy relic crumble a religion before the arbiter
he didnt seem hotheaded and panicked for it
full forge
I know I had a sword and rocket launcher when I got to that scene
limpid meadow
Why was he unarmed is a good question
proud quail
also that
limpid meadow
But the fact remains that he is by then.
One could probably work out a reason if necessary though.
full forge
Maybe he didn't want to damage the Index...?
limpid meadow
Very well could be
humble yacht
Since people get to that point in game with varying weapons and reserve ammo, saying he arrives there with a sword or whatever is not canon
It could very well be that canonically he had just exhausted all weapons in getting through the flood to get to the index
limpid meadow
That's another good explanation
All we know for sure is that he's unarmed when confronting Miranda & Johnson.
humble yacht
Thought exercise: if thel had beaten Keyes and Johnson to the index, would he have realized something was wrong about halo?
gilded mason
Canonically, Thel was attempting a melee run through the Quarantine Zone. For E-cred.
midnight loom
wow. so many people that know as much lore as I do!
stable schooner
To that Chimera I say nah
limpid meadow
@humble yacht Probably. Tartarus would still have betrayed Thel.
humble yacht
What I mean is
Thel is not a reclaimer
Theoretically that means he would not have been able to physically retrieve the index
It should have rejected him
And if that happens, that would cause me to doubt my established idea of what halo was if I were Thel
stable schooner
Your not a Former Elite Zealot and the Arbiter Though.
They still wasn’t convinced until Oracle told him the truth. I doubt this conundrum would shake his faith enough.
feral perch
Perhaps. Regret was able to get Ripa onboard with using Anders to unlock the Forerunner Dragoons. The Prophets could have explained this other problem away.
humble yacht
Yeah but in this case thel’s only concern was retrieving the icon. If the icon were unretrievable it would be a cause for concern
And if he got there first, no way would he let humans touch the icon upon their arrival
So he’d just be sitting on top of Johnson and Miranda wondering why the index wouldn’t come out of it’s box
stable schooner
I don’t see how he would get there first in anyway but as already said theirs the problem of Tartarus there to betray him either way
humble yacht
That’s not really relevant to what I’m asking
stable schooner
I think it is cause Arbiter wouldn’t have enough time to seriously ponder it with Tartarus right behind him.
humble yacht
Tartarus only betrayed him after getting the index
If the index were not yet retrieved then there would be no point for Tartarus to betray him to get it
feral perch
Shouldn’t he have questioned the heretic humans being able to retrieve the index anyway?
humble yacht
Tartarus would similarly be standing there with no index being like “what the flood”
stable schooner
I disagree Tartarus already knew humans were needed for the Icon. Arbiter was there to clear the way.
And we see High Charity has back up humans so even if Miranda and Johnson were killed Tartarus and his Brutes would still dispose of Arbiter who in this scenario can’t actually get the Icon.
humble yacht
Then that would suggest Tartarus was in on the lie
limpid meadow
Not necessarily
stable schooner
Tartarus was Though
humble yacht
If that’s the case then Tartarus was a traitor to brute kind.
He owed it to his people to point out that major inconsistency
This makes him much worse of a person
stable schooner
I mean Tartarus willingly lit the ring upon Oracle telling him the truth
humble yacht
Not just blindly devoted but also willfully ignorant
full forge
And sometimes for Tartarus to be a big dumb stinky head.
humble yacht
Not just dumb. Criminally negligent
stable schooner
Honestly though my second favorite Character in Halo 2.
rustic canyon
hmmm I got Oblivion and Meridian divide now to wait for the next thing
fair hazel
you should read them
sonic ridge
If sangheilis don’t like being called elites why do they refer to each other as elites in 2 and 3
feral perch
Wow, I just realized the Spartan Laser doesn’t make an actual appearance in any Halo novel, unless it’s in Meridian Divide.
sonic ridge
You don’t need spartan laser just plot armour
carmine sleet
They refer to each other as Elites because back then, the species name, Sangheili wasn't really known to the wider Halo community
sonic ridge
F
left portal
Same question as why do they speak English and not subtitled-Sangheli? 😛
carmine sleet
Because Bungie wanted the players to understand what they are saying during the Covenant side of Halo 2. Not everyone wants to read subtitles
stable schooner
Though of course Elites like the Arbiter and Rtas do know English
stoic hamlet
But they wouldn’t speak it
stable schooner
I mean they spoke it to Hood and all the Humans in Halo 3 unless you think their Speaking Sangheili to them
humble yacht
Did he speak English to the gravemind?
The gravemind would know both languages after all
stoic hamlet
I’d guess no, and that John’s suit/Cortana translated to him.
While yeah, Gtavy would know the language
stable schooner
But would he speak Sangheili to John. I feel like to lay down the law that conversation was in English but it’s problematic with the Monitor, Gravemind, Arbiter and maybe Chiefs suit all knowing multiple Languages
versed helm
only on languages known
fair hazel
Well thel would know English.
humble yacht
Well the gravemind broadcasts telepathically
I’d expect he can broadcast respective languages to intended recipients
Perhaps arbiter heard it in sangheili while John heard it in English
I’d expect regret to know English but he may have been speaking sangheili or sanshyuum and Cortana May have been translating for our benefit like she did before
last anchor
The Gravemind probably just broadcasts in a base-line frequency and the speech centers of the victims brain convert it into understandable speech
fair hazel
Uh
I don’t think that’s very scientific
Regret was being puppeted
One of the things is that the way he speaks.
stoic hamlet
He doesn’t have to speak like that. He just chooses to.
fair hazel
Gravemind is a sentient amalgamation of flood super cells and neural network ?
“Base line frequency”
That’s just :/
Grave mind speaking like that, feels@like ifnwould@ be language dependsnfn
humble yacht
All thumbs I see
stable schooner
Man talking about Plot double Standards, the Elite Zealots, Councilors and Hunters will work with the Marines on Great Journey no prob but their all Hostile to Chief on High Charity.
humble yacht
I don’t remember hunters helping marines
humble yacht
The only allied hunters are right before Johnson shows up with the scarab
stable schooner
Nope wrong Chimera theirs 2 imprisoned with the Councilors.
humble yacht
Oh yeah
But those hunters never help marines
There aren’t any marines around to help
stable schooner
No they just save them from Brutes. Theirs literally Stacker and Banks prisoned with Johnson.
humble yacht
You’ll have to show me the scene because I’m racking my brain and can’t remember seeing marines and hunters on screen at the same time during an arbiter mission
stable schooner
You the Freed 2 Councilors and Hunters arrive right in time to stop Johnson, Stacker and Banks from getting executed by Brutes.
humble yacht
But Johnson is in the scarab
stable schooner
Not the 2 Sergeants though who you fight with against the Brutes
They have Plasma Pistols And it’s Stacker/Banks
humble yacht
The hunters on high charity didn’t have arbiter there to tell them not to attack humans
Those hunters on high charity just knew the brutes were betraying them, not that the covenant religion was a lie
stable schooner
I don’t think the Zealots And Councilors That arrived at the Control Room had Arbiter tell them to Work with Johnson. No one knew the covenant religion was a lie until the Oracle scene.
humble yacht
Maybe those elites helping fight Tartarus used context clues to recognize that Johnson was helping Thel at that moment
stable schooner
Yep little did we know the love of battle outweighs entire life faith for Zealots lol. I like to Headcanon though the Councilors saw the humans as fellow prisoners and found common cause.
humble yacht
When Thel meets rtas at the beginning of the level, rtas was somehow already totally willing to halt the great journey despite not having any idea why it was bad
All Thel had to say was “I must get inside” and rtas was like “ok, I’ll break you in”. Could be that rtas spread the word that the humans were helping out Thel and that’s why all those elite reinforcements ignored Johnson
Of course, that’s assuming those reinforcements were canon and not simply a gameplay necessity
stable schooner
I wouldn’t say gameplay necessity since it’s always those Ranks and they don’t actually damage Tartarus and their scripted Berserk upon the sight of Tartarus definitely seemed more a immersion thing but I mean that Rtas thing is true though. Shakey But I guess goes to show the Trust all Elites have towards the Arbiter.
For being disgraced he sure is never treated like it lol
humble yacht
Well once the brutes started killing their friends, I could see them suddenly value species over faith
gilded mason
They probably felt he was redeeming himself with his attempted Gas Mine sacrifice and Icon journey.
humble yacht
Besides, did all the covenant know it was Thel in that armor?
Was that a public announcement?
Rtas saw his mark and that’s how he found out
stable schooner
Even the Grunts worship him. I’m pretty sure it was with that massive crowd and it being a public humiliation
stable schooner
I mean Rtas worked for the Prophets so I’m sure he would be briefed
carmine sleet
I doubt they did announce Thel was the one who became Arbiter but it's likely many would've figured it out
gilded mason
He's exaggerating to emphasize that you can never be too careful with the Flood.
stable schooner
Actually your right Chimera since Truth and Mercy secretly did make him one and Regret didn’t know about the Arbiter so actually I think Rtas might have been one of the few that knew immediately anyways.
Yeah Rtas is definitely Exaggerating imo
Same conversation he calls it’s a small infestation.
humble yacht
It’s not exaggerated
It’s truep
If left unchecked one spore could destroy a species
stable schooner
I don’t think we’ve seen a case where a single spore infected an entire planet and Rtas doesn’t have the experience to confirm it
humble yacht
And while he did call that infestation “small”, that’s relative. The action necessary against a small infestation was on the level of annihilating half a continents
The way the Flood works, one spore could take a whole planet, assuming no resistance
stable schooner
I stand by Rtas isn’t a Flood Expert anymore then Master Chief is. It’s not like he spent years fighting the flood so while it’s possible he definitely can’t prove it and the infection capabilities of one spore is still out there.
humble yacht
But he smelled that stench before
stable schooner
I still think he meant Infection form specifically and lol
Yeah from that comic where he fought his Flood second in command
humble yacht
An infection form is only useful in creating a combat form
A single spore can convert any other cell into a FCS
So while it is a slow spread, it’s still a spread
There is no natural immunity to conversion either
stable schooner
Where has that actually factually happened before though
humble yacht
Even if you can’t become a combat form you can still be turned into flood biomass
There has always been resistance against flood which is why no single spore is ever given the chance to fully consume a species
Nobody is stupid enough to conduct that experiment
stable schooner
Or we don’t actually know it’s capabilities, exactly. I don’t think one spore can infect an Healthy Elite for ex.
humble yacht
Elites can be infected by spore inhalation
stable schooner
Or they could have made all the Elites Rangers just saying
humble yacht
The only factor would be time which would be based on number of spores inhaled
stable schooner
Where did that happen though.
humble yacht
In comics
stable schooner
What comic
humble yacht
I can’t recall
gilded mason
Last Voyage of the Infinite Succor
gilded mason
thank
stable schooner
That comic had his second in command physically hit by the flood im pretty sure, I’m talking specifically airborne.
humble yacht
Bero Kusavai. Converted by inhaling spores. Conversion was slower than that of a pod infector
Truth, too, was apparently infected by spores
stable schooner
Wear does it say that though, I’m pretty sure someone brought up that comic before and he was physically exposed to the flood though damage. Also Truth is debatable when theirs inactive Combat Forms all around him
humble yacht
I don’t have the comic but halopedia says he inhaled
Besides, it doesn’t really matter how a spore enters your body
Once it’s in, infection begins
stable schooner
Well HaloPedia is known to make mistakes that I’ve myself relied on too much so I’m gonna take that dubiously.Plus that logic would have to mean Flood Fog does not equal Spores, which is actually fine by me.
gilded mason
flood farts
humble yacht
Mona Lisa says infection can occur from getting wounded by combat form, as spores enter the wound
So that is effectively the same as breathing in a spore. Whether in your lungs or in your blood stream, the spore can start converting surrounding cells into FSCs
stable schooner
That’s direct wounds I don’t dispute. But when I think about it you don’t actually see physical Flood Spores floating when playing as the Arbiter. So I’m content with just fog not equal Spores
unique rune
I'm looking at a page of Last Voyage and it seems there's an otherwise normal Sangheili that starts transforming at some point while they're on the bridge arguing...
fair hazel
rtas fought the flod before and flood spore turned one of his team mates into a combat form if i recall
pretty sure it's the flood super cell that does the infecting when it goes in, by a slash for instance
unique rune
I'm actually having trouble figuring out how the scene works because I think it might actually be coming through a door with other combat forms following...
fair hazel
It would make sense to me energy shielding orking like that.
humble yacht
I mean, a FSC is just an activated flood spore
unique rune
Bero 'Kusovai is probably who you're thinking of
humble yacht
Spores are a cell fate that cells can use to maintain themselves in nutrient diffident environments
gilded mason
Though looking at the comic, Bero does have a buncha stuff stickin' outta him during his fight with Rtas. Might be an infection form, but maybe not.
humble yacht
Fungal cells also go into spore form for distribution
And when they land somewhere they activate and start dividing
fair hazel
this is not a flood spore. This is an infection form, more specifically a pod infector
gilded mason
We know, Erickyboo.
humble yacht
So a flood spore and a FSC are essentially the same thing
I dunno, not sure if ericky is following the key point of discrepancy
gilded mason
I don't think he is, yeah
humble yacht
It wasn’t an infection form ostral
humble yacht
Because it took forever for him to get to that stage
Infection form conversions take seconds
Conversions by spore exposure take much longer
vague scroll
that's their cells being converted into flood biomass
gilded mason
Why do they snap UNSC soldiers necks?
Everyone's neck flops down.
vague scroll
the bones inside get cracked by the transformation and expanion
if it helps your understanding, flood cells are essentially a hyper-volatile form of cancerous cells
humble yacht
The infection form injects flood cells into the host which rapidly mutate the host into a more dangerous form
vague scroll
the skin and organs are converted at such a rapid rate that the bone are contorted and warped and are broken under the pressure
humble yacht
The infection form controls the host through its nervous system
versed helm
Basically, Flood is OP
humble yacht
This is why if you crit shot a combat form it goes down
And why sometimes infection forms come back out of the body
versed helm
Flood is technically precursors yea?
vague scroll
the bone-like appendages are converted cell material that's hardened, almost like a giant toenail, the little tendrils are the flood infection form shifting up and to the surface of the flood
@versed helm its a very weird technicality but ye
gilded mason
they literally snap their neck as part of the halo 3 conversion animation
Got a shot of that? Can't find anything that clearly shows it.
versed helm
Wb the Suicidal Marines in the games, i know theres one in Reach, where else are there some?
@gilded mason it shows their bones breaking and neck snapping indeed
vague scroll
@versed helm Halo 2, 3
stable schooner
So I just checked none of those Spores are seen when playing Arbiter in Classic or anniversary on Sacred Icon so I’d say Fog not automatically equal Spores
vague scroll
Halo CE as well
gilded mason
@Ostral it shows their bones breaking and neck snapping indeed
I mean them doing it to themselves.
versed helm
Weren't the marines wanting to suicide because they were infected? @vague scroll
vague scroll
nope
gilded mason
And I don't see it in that youtube video, to be honest.
versed helm
it's easier to see in the game itself
stable schooner
So what common areas is it said Arbiter should have been infected?
humble yacht
Quarantine zone
gilded mason
Ah, that other animation definitely shows it, alrighty.
stable schooner
No Spores all just fog
humble yacht
Spores are in high charity but Chief had a helmet
versed helm
Are spartans immune? or do we have any examples of a spartan being infected?
humble yacht
Spartans not immune
gilded mason
Nobody is immune
stable schooner
Spores are seen in the final Halo 2 Cutscene but yeah that’s High Charity
versed helm
I mean to be infected i know they can be eaten still
humble yacht
It’s just Spartans too badass to let themselves get infected
UNSC created simulations around the potential of infected Spartans tho
versed helm
Don't energy shields pop some of the infection forms? idk why but i do swear they do
unique rune
No known instances of Flood-infected Spartans but they're no different from other sentient beings in that regard.
versed helm
and thats what the infection game mode is
stable schooner
Their isn’t even Any Spores around Gravemind when he’s still on the Ring. So Arbiter shouldn’t have been in danger any any point in Halo 2
unique rune
Energy shields can be used to destroy infection forms, but the way they pop on contact in-game isn't 100% accurate to it, I'm pretty sure.
humble yacht
Those Spartans were theoretically infected by spore exposure
versed helm
Didn't Jerome almost get infected after the outbreak on the SoF?
humble yacht
H2A’s infection mode, on the other hand, shows Infected Head Spartans, which are what would happen if an infection form got into a Spartans helmet
versed helm
That's another thing, can an infection form even penetrate MJOLNIR?
unique rune
Infection form manages to cut through the body suit and almost gets Chief.
stable schooner
So I feel much more resolved. No Spores by Arbiter in Halo 2 and he’s only on High Charity very shortly in Halo 3 with a Flamethrower
versed helm
Ohhhhh yea i remember that now
Weren't Sangheili around during the Forerunner-Flood war?
IIRC they were
gilded mason
Yeah.
Though they were apparently a whole lot less advanced. A life expectancy of 27 years, cripes.
versed helm
now it's like 200 years IIRC
gilded mason
At least.
versed helm
And how did the flood not wipe them out?
humble yacht
Conservation Measure
stable schooner
Now Floodgate I can’t tell if it’s soot and ash or Spores but I think its ash from the fires based on the white color
humble yacht
Floodgate is weird because when the cruiser enters earth space, it’s surrounded by a cloud of spores, but after it crashes, it’s not like it’s spewing a constant stream of spores out to infect the planet
vague scroll
it's possible it was an osmosis situation
that the spores was a expulsion of the ship's internal atmosphere because it wasn't vacuum sealed when it jumped into Earth's atmosphere
and by the time it crashed, it spit out most of its spores
humble yacht
All those ejected spores should have been carried across the world by atmospheric currents
Technically earth should have died just from that ship entering space
vague scroll
its possible that at the altitude at the time, they managed to prevent the spores from getting too far away
maybe the atmosphere was boiled with the glassing of East Kenya
coarse scarab
I mean they did glass half a continent to prevent it from spreading
humble yacht
That glassing occurred way after the ship arrived at earth
Airborne spores would have had plenty of time to spread
vague scroll
a day or two isn't too bad, I don't know, I'm just taking a guess here
stable schooner
Their is fires all around the crash site and the portal to the Ark but that’s all I got
versed helm
Does modern humanity have any artifacts from the Ancient humans? or do they have any idea of who they were?
humble yacht
They have an idea, yes
Not sure if they have artifacts
I think hellcat armor is based on Ancient Human designs
versed helm
Actually, didn't the Librarian tell John about the war?
humble yacht
She did
deft sentinel
Hey do you guys think that Grunts were designed to not be infected by the flood? Because they have the big metal thing on their back and they don't breathe in the spores because of their mouth masks?
deft sentinel
Yeah but it seems difficult
coarse scarab
They breath in special air from their planet
humble yacht
In halo wars they can become combat forms too
stoic hamlet
It’s not an anti flood measure
versed helm
Grunt weren't designed by covenant if that's what you think
stoic hamlet
It’s just how they breathe
deft sentinel
Oh alright
stoic hamlet
They can’t survive on oxygen
versed helm
Apparently, IVs need an acclimation to HELLCAT armor, yet the IIs don't
vague scroll
@deft sentinel the big tanks on their backs are methane breathing tanks
versed helm
weird
vague scroll
since Grunts can't breath oxygenated air
versed helm
In games with the IWBYD skull, they sometimes say lines about their methane tanks
obsidian thistle
https://www.halopedia.org/images/8/8f/HW2_-_Flood_Unggoy_form.jpg (Grunt combat Form if anyone wanted to see one of them)
coarse scarab
Oh cool
versed helm
that's horrifying
deft sentinel
All of them look horrifying
Even though the Flood looks scary, its kind of cool to have them around
coarse scarab
Ya that's like kinda their aesthetic
obsidian thistle
https://www.halopedia.org/images/4/46/Unggoy_Combat_Form.png (another one so you can see another form the Grunt ones can take)
versed helm
Anyways, why do the IV's need to be acclimated and can't naturally wear HELLCAT armor, yet the IIs can wear it just fine without nay acclimation?
Wait CIA, that said HW2, Are there Grunt forms in HW2?
obsidian thistle
Yes.
Grunt Flood Forms are in Halo Wars 2.
I mean... Awakening the Nightmare...
versed helm
I haven’t played ATN, i feel the flood story line in it was just rushed and there by pressure
vague scroll
generally from what I've heard, narratively, its somewhat stronger than the base game
if a bit short
versed helm
Well, it is just an add on
stoic hamlet
@versed helm probably because IV’s have weaker augmentations than II’s/III’s, or they’re simply closer on a genetics level.
That’s my best guess.
versed helm
I could see that, still just intrigued me
humble yacht
I wouldn't say that ATN is narratively stronger than the base story of HW2
it kicks off basically because a brute ignores orders, followed by a bunch of flood-killing filler, then ends with quarantine being reestablished
the overall impact on HW2 is quite minimal since the state of affairs at the end is the same as it was at the beginning
versed helm
What you call flood-killing filler
I call
Flood-killing badassery
Surprised that got through the filter
humble yacht
it didn't
versed helm
What
Badassery
And yes, Spartans are all equal generally
Though IIs and IIIs have more experience being Spartans
Though IIs and IIIs have more experience being Spartans
And I maintain that Chief is on a different level from everyone else cuz he's my childhood idol
gilded mason
Different augmentations
humble yacht
um, opposite actually
S-IV augmentations are mostly drug induced
S-IIs get the most surgical enchancements
stoic hamlet
Pretty sure it’s because they were augmented as adults
humble yacht
also advancements in augmentation technology
vivid dust
what the hell is that Flood Grunt
vivid dust
it looks so good wow
humble yacht
How you go from mostly drugs with the IIIs back to surgery with the IVs
so backwards
versed helm
I think the IIIs were pretty surgery as well
They're all pretty surgery
With a bit of drugs too
Except ORION
vivid dust
Was there a retcon though? About them lacking something for becoming combat forms?
stoic hamlet
III’s were mostly chemicals
versed helm
But they're not even really Spartans so get outta here
versed helm
SPARTAN-III transformed orphan children into a new breed of super-soldier using streamlined biological augmentation processes paired with experimental biochemical enhancement.
Says the Field Manual
stoic hamlet
IIRC it appears in Ghosts of Onyx
But more as like, they’d be in surgical facilities and stuff
Not undergoing full on surgery
versed helm
SPARTAN-IV is a revision and expansion of the ORION augmentation protocols using biological, chemical, and cybernetic enhancement methods developed for Spartan-II and Spartan-III.
humble yacht
I know there was some surgical alterations but not nearly as many or as invasive as it was in Project ASTER
for the IIIs
stoic hamlet
It was like 70% chemical to 20% surgical, or something.
The vast majority was chemical
humble yacht
when you also consider the increased success rate of IIIs over IIs, it seems like the transition to more drug-based augmentations led to more safety and success rate
versed helm
It seems to me that the field manual may be using "biological" instead of "surgical".
Assuming that the SIVs augmentations that seem to be surgical are surgical.
humble yacht
biological is too big an umbrella term to be synonymous with surgical
versed helm
I'm speaking contextually here.
If they were gonna use surgical, they would have for the IVs, right?
Maybe it was considered too intense for the kiddos or something
humble yacht
biological could refer to the gene therapy that S-IVs got
humble yacht
cybernetic would involve the surgery
versed helm
Not by definition.
humble yacht
from the organ implantations to the neural link
versed helm
So we've got two contextual interpretations.
humble yacht
those would be the cybernetic augmentations
versed helm
Unless you want to tell me that the Titanium-A and composite sheathing of the bones is cybernetic.
And same for the muscle being removed and reattached with woven-in synthetic poly-muscle fibers.
🤷
humble yacht
which project did those two things fall under
versed helm
SIV
humble yacht
because I've got ORCHID open in front of me and don't see those things
versed helm
I'll grab a photo if you like
humble yacht
Looking up Titanium-A, i also don't ever see it mentioned as a component in spartan augmentations
versed helm
Oh lawd I'm terrible at photos
Hopefully they'll be legible when they come through
Forgive the slow Aussie internet
Remember to open original and all that jazz
humble yacht
well then you should let CIA know because that seems like an odd thing to leave out from those halopedia entries
versed helm
Copy that
Actually, I'll take care of it myself
In a bit
But yeah, I mean, this whole thing's a bit of a grey area
I think it is conceivable that the revised surgical methods of the SIVs were more cost effective than the SIIIs biochemical stuff?
But I can't imagine the SIIIs would've had no surgery.
humble yacht
anyways, i would count those particular procedures as closer to cybernetic than biological
I didn't say they had no surgery
just mostly chemical/drugs
humble yacht
For the IVs, the most biological sounding augmentations are the gene therapy and the mylenation of neurons
I would count any artificial modification of a biological system that improves it's function to be cybernetic
so, yeah, people with pacemakers are cyborgs
versed helm
But what about people with knee reconstructions
humble yacht
yep
humble yacht
i think most people hear cyborg and assume a half robot half human superperson
which is an extreme example but not the only definition of cyborg
versed helm
It is both arguably terminology which has come to imply heavy augmentation
And also terminology which could be a little insensitive for someone with a pacemaker
humble yacht
restorative cybernetics as opposed to enchancing cybernetics
versed helm
Cybernetics for me imply a degree of computational activity.
Let me uh
Lemme look it up
humble yacht
It's connotations is what would make it insensitive because of how cyborgs are commonly depicted in media
versed helm
the science of communications and automatic control systems in both machines and living things.
lmao okay then
It seems fate has decided I was wrong this day
humble yacht
i already looked up the wiki entry
last anchor
We knew that from Initiation but its nice to get confirmation
The more we hear about the S-IVs the more they seem like 40ks Space Marines in what they can do
Truly transhuman
carmine sleet
In Bad Blood, we see the Grunt homeworld, Romeo was stationed there in 2558
last anchor
Also methane is just a really likely thing to breath
And it shows the S-IVs are seriously hardcore
The Gammas were. the Alpha and Beta companies didnt have the mutations.
That being said the fact one of them can go berserk and smash stuff always amuses me.
I always imagine Olivia, if she could talk while raging, sounding like Kreig from Borderlands 2
humble yacht
Breathing methane doesn’t make since at all
Unless it’s a mixture of methane with other gases like oxygen
Or unless their saying that spartan IVs can survive on one breath of O2 for 30 min
Like, spartan IVs are still human. They still need O2 for cellular function. You don’t just suddenly get to ignore Krebb’s cycle
The only thing I could see is that the lung augmentations are capable of filtering out toxins to a degree or have limited capability of synthesizing some form of oxygen from methane
midnight loom
Nah... I mean, ya know, the gammas and some spartan 111s were known to survive in space and survive under dificullt conditions
humble yacht
Surviving under stress is one thing
midnight loom
yeah?
humble yacht
Ignoring a basic cellular process is another
midnight loom
well, remember how in the lore dante, a spartan three was still walking after being shot in the heart by a plasma bolt on onyx
humble yacht
That just means he didn’t immediately go into shock
midnight loom
im pretty sure he wasn't a gamma tho
humble yacht
If not for shock, even a normal human could operate for a few seconds upon loss of heart function
midnight loom
so gammas are basically invincible for a minute or two
humble yacht
Not invincible
carmine sleet
Dante was a Gamma, the only S-IIIs not of Gamma on Onyx at that time were Tom and Lucy
humble yacht
Headshot still works
midnight loom
that's fair, but other than that...
stoic hamlet
It basically has to be a headshot or incineration
humble yacht
Cutting off limbs works too
midnight loom
they just cant move.
stoic hamlet
Aye, but they won’t die
carmine sleet
Also, he wasn't shot in the heart, he had a bunch of needler rounds blow up in his chest
midnight loom
oh yeah
stoic hamlet
Pretty sure his organs were liquid
humble yacht
But yeah, he ignore effects of shock and thus was able to operate on the remaining oxygen in his blood stream
stoic hamlet
^
stoic hamlet
They don’t feel shock in that state.
midnight loom
"I think i just got nicked"
humble yacht
Wouldn’t have been long but it’s explainable with modern understanding of human biology
midnight loom
"sir"
stoic hamlet
Honestly if he could have gotten to a hospital he might have lived
midnight loom
true true
humble yacht
Breathing methane, on the other hand, is not explainable
midnight loom
biofoam wont help tho
stoic hamlet
He had similar injuries to Linda
midnight loom
he would need halsey to immidiatly flash clone him organs like for linda
stoic hamlet
Not Halsey per se
stoic hamlet
Any doctor could do it
midnight loom
yeah
stoic hamlet
All they need is the right facility
midnight loom
halsey just has the most experience
humble yacht
Flash cloning isn’t instantaneous
midnight loom
uh.. almost instant
stoic hamlet
No
humble yacht
The subject would need to be on life support until the cloned organs grew to correct size
stoic hamlet
But it is possible to potentially have saved him had he been able to be placed in Cryo
stoic hamlet
Like Katana
stoic hamlet
They have
stoic hamlet
They’re all better now apparently and back in action
stoic hamlet
I think one of the Kilo-5 books?
midnight loom
that book
no
not kilo 5
i think i read all of them
i just remembered that onyx/trevelein was as big as a system
poor kurt
i liked him
051
stoic hamlet
It might have been a canonfodder
midnight loom
?
last anchor
Legacy of Onyx probably, it confirmed it
midnight loom
yeah
im pretty sure
whats gonna happen to cortana?
like is chief gonna capture her and use the chip to fix her?
humble yacht
No leak discussions here
humble yacht
Trailer discussion is fine
midnight loom
yeah ok
humble yacht
If it’s in a trailer it’s not a leak
midnight loom
but whuts gonna happen to cortana
there was the chip remember
and this sleuth used some hints in the trailer and all to get to a site
humble yacht
Nobody knows what’s gonna happen
humble yacht
If they did it wouldn’t be much a surprise in the game
midnight loom
well yeah thats true
warm ridge
As far as we know, there were 2 Proto-Graveminds in HW2. The one inside High Charity still, and the newly created one outside of High Charity. I believe the "Sentinel wall" blocked the proto-gravemind's reach from going outside, so a new one would've had to of been created outside.
"High Charity's Proto-Gravemind is a massive, highly adaptable biological weapon. It is a horrifying enemy, protected by every Flood beast on the Ark. Only fools and madmen dare to attack it without overwhelming force. "
Hence why a Proto-Gravemind was created outside the wall at all, so he could better "coordinate" his troops. Otherwise I honestly don't understand how so many Pure forms managed to survive at all.
Also, in the Feral stage, the Flood only has a single goal, infect enough bodies to create a Proto-Gravemind 1st and foremost, then a full on Gravemind.
@humble yacht @versed helm
midnight loom
yeah true
humble yacht
Wtf, talk about old topic
warm ridge
HW2's Phoenix logs also seem to suggest this "proto-gravemind" inside High Charity would rise again back to Gravemind levels, suggesting the only reason a Proto-Gravemind was created outside at all was to coordinate more Flood flesh to pour inside the ship rather then outside.
yea, I was late to the convo.
midnight loom
speaking about flood, have they gone to the interstellar stage?
warm ridge
Looters seem to of went onto an entirely different thing though lol.
midnight loom
to chase forrunners or something?
humble yacht
Pheonix logs don’t state the proto mind at the end was a different one than the leftover from inside HC
versed helm
I got the impression that the ones inside HC were feral.
midnight loom
hmmm true i guess
humble yacht
It also wouldn’t really make since that that large of a proto could be created in that short of time with such little access to new food
versed helm
A proto-gravemind would likely have been killed by the Halo pulse
warm ridge
It literally says "The Proto-Gravemind within High Charity is the shadow of a far greater threat"
midnight loom
yeah
versed helm
Oh nvm then
humble yacht
It could have moved/been moved
midnight loom
true true
warm ridge
Through a tiny hole that only Flood troops could of poured out of? Not likely.
Nor does it say anything about it being the same.
midnight loom
so u suggesting that the mind is like... new?
humble yacht
So we simply don’t know and have to draw our own conclusion based on what we’d like
humble yacht
No it’s a dumb dumb
midnight loom
omega get out his head
carmine sleet
There's likely more than one hole the Flood could've used to escape High Charity during ATN
humble yacht
It sticks forks in power outlets
warm ridge
as far as we know, the Phoenix logs suggest there were 2 Proto-Graveminds during HW2 ATN.
deft sentinel
lmao
warm ridge
nothing definitive, but it does suggest it.
humble yacht
I read them and never saw that suggested
midnight loom
hows season 18 anyways, omega
humble yacht
Only one proto is mentioned
midnight loom
yeah i think
warm ridge
@carmine sleet There was only a single hole that the Banished created via a Scarab beam. No other holes existed.
deft sentinel
No, but remember when there was a time that the Flood sides with Master Chief and Arbiter real quickly and then betrayed them?
warm ridge
@humble yacht Yes, the one inside High Charity. The Phoenix logs do not talk about any proto-gravemind existing outside of it at all.
but yet one was created outside of it, despite one already existing inside.
humble yacht
Or it was the same one as inside but just migrated
warm ridge
again, it doesn't say it migrated at all, or moved.
midnight loom
u sure it wasn't a key mind?
humble yacht
And it doesn’t say it was newly created either
warm ridge
It just says that there is a proto-gravemind inside high charity still that survived, and that's all we know.
The one inside high charity wouldn't of been newly created..? It survived H3.
carmine sleet
Maybe it was originally a smaller Proto-Gravemind and moved from inside because it needed to grow larger than it could inside
warm ridge
The one outside of High charity is newly created though.
humble yacht
Could be new, could be the same as the one inside
warm ridge
but again, as far as we know it's suggesting 2 Proto-Graveminds, not a singular one.
1 within High Charity's walls, and 1 that was created on the outside.
humble yacht
It’s only suggesting that if you ignor the possibility of migration
warm ridge
and as far as we know in HW2 ATN it never talks about "rebuilding itself" at all.
warm ridge
It would've had to been in pretty large chunks over-all, through a tiny hole.
carmine sleet
Rebuilding is different to moving from one place to another
midnight loom
yeah
warm ridge
That's pretty much the only way it would've been able to survive.
or "move" outside of High charity.
midnight loom
hmmmmmm
humble yacht
And it’s tentacles had a long reach
humble yacht
It didn’t have to come out of that one tiny breach in the shield
warm ridge
Highly doubt it would've moved itself underground without dealing with a mass of sentinels all underground.
hence again, why I'm pretty sure it created a new one entirely on the outside.
midnight loom
yeah...
carmine sleet
You'd be surprised at what can be used to dig through the ground
midnight loom
flood can transfer memories after all
warm ridge
also, if it was able to move underground at all, why would of the hole in the Sentinel wall needed to be created in the 1st place?
humble yacht
It doesn’t make sense to build an entirely new one outside if there was already a proto inside high charity
warm ridge
It's only option of escape was through a tiny hole, and it would've had to rebuild itself on the outside.
humble yacht
That would mean the flood ignored the easiest route to reaching the coordinated stage
midnight loom
yeah ig uess
warm ridge
unless the Sentinel wall blocks the "Flood's reach", and this hole just wasn't enough.
humble yacht
Well that’s an assumption you are able to make but I don’t subscribe to that without explicit defining of what that wall was and could do
warm ridge
It's the only thing that makes enough sense to me. If the Flood were capable of just digging a really massive hole in the Ark, why would the Sentinel wall be capable of keeping them contained? Likely because it also extends underground to.
versed helm
Agreed.
midnight loom
.like onyx
humble yacht
Also that assumption requires as of yet undisclosed mechanism by which the flood communicate
midnight loom
it was made of sentinels
versed helm
We can assume that the mechanism by which the Flood communicate is effectively psychic.
humble yacht
Honestly all of ATN is riddled with plot holes and unanswered questions
versed helm
With Keyminds in play that is.
warm ridge
The whole communication stuff is an entirely different thing, but the only thing that makes sense is the Phoenix logs do suggest 2 different Proto-Graveminds were formed, one that survived in High Charity, and this newly created one on the outside.
It even specifically says the Proto-Gravemind in High Charity was ready to rise again, if that's the case why was it outside, not inside?
midnight loom
hmmm
humble yacht
The Phoenix log is from tragic solitude and only mentions that he detected a proto inside HC when containing it
warm ridge
Look at the one called "Proto-Gravemind" log. It says it all right there.
humble yacht
The origin of the one we see at the end of the dlc is not explained and can be explained by multiple reasons
If you don’t like mine then tough
midnight loom
wasn't tragic solitude a forerunner
warm ridge
Tragic Solitude was originally a Forerunner yes, but he got turned into a Monitor the same way Chakas was turned into 343 Guilty Spark @midnight loom
midnight loom
oh yeah
warm ridge
In fact his original intentions into becoming one at all was to aid Humanity once they reached the installation.
but hey rampancy does crazy things
warm ridge
Cortana is a human AI and has a extremely limited life span, Forerunner AI's don't. As far as we know, the only way a Forerunner AI can become rampant is through isolation.
midnight loom
uh... or logic plauge
warm ridge
I don't think logic plague really causes rampancy, it causes you to fight for the Flood's side.
humble yacht
It induces the symptom of rampancy associated with turning on one’s creators and being angry
midnight loom
it destroys their mind
warm ridge
medicant was convinced the Forerunners killed the Precursors and went against the Mantle, so he sought the same vengeance the Precursors did.
humble yacht
But rampancy in forerunner AI is not fatal like in human AI
humble yacht
Honestly the definition of rampancy has been inconsistent throughout halo
midnight loom
see cortana
midnight loom
ummmm
warm ridge
Cortana didn't survive. The Cortana you see in H1-H4 is long dead.
The Cortana you see in H5 is many different rampant fragments of her original self that managed to be put back together after they accessed the Domain
midnight loom
chief rescued her before she went rampant. she went crazy after
humble yacht
Chief rescued her from early rampancy at the hands of the gravemind
She still went rampant later as part of her natural life span
midnight loom
ok... fair
warm ridge
@midnight loom read what I just said
midnight loom
yeah yeah i know
humble yacht
It was slowly killing her. She resisted but it was still a fatal condition
midnight loom
actually only one fragment is crazy and the rest are just confused
humble yacht
Had her rampant fragments not made it to the domain, they would have dissipated
warm ridge
^
midnight loom
hmmmm
humble yacht
So she got lucky
midnight loom
citation needed
clever fable
Did she not just try to run defrag from CMD
warm ridge
She herself is still technically dead though. It's an entirely different Cortana you see in H5 that doesn't have all the original "memories" or "functions" of Cortana.
clever fable
Coulda saved us a lot of trouble
warm ridge
@clever fable defrag 🤡
humble yacht
It’s a Cortana reconstitutes from an incomplete array of fragments
humble yacht
It’s like a Cortana missing her frontal lobe
versed helm
I don't subscribe to that notion entirely though.
midnight loom
she just needs to find her other peices
versed helm
I think it defeats the purpose.
warm ridge
you kinda have to considering it's what the official lore pretty much states.
in terms of Cortana at least.
midnight loom
huh
humble yacht
Dominion splinter is pretty clear about it
humble yacht
Deteriorating
warm ridge
Human AI's are like the brains of human minds in digital form basically. Once you take a section of the brain out, you get missing memories, missing functions, missing everything etc.
midnight loom
the created
clever fable
senile
clever fable
In my eyes the jedi created are evil!
humble yacht
We probably want to stay away from calling Cortana mentally ill
Scratch that
Definitely stay away
warm ridge
The "created" are simply many different human AI's that decided to join Cortana in the Domain. Other then that, we don't know much else.
humble yacht
Not just human
warm ridge
The created's army is simply the original army of the Ur-Didact, the Prometheans.
midnight loom
yeah
humble yacht
At least one forerunner AI is a Created member
clever fable
Which AI would that be
humble yacht
Well, senior member
midnight loom
hacked
warm ridge
Obviously the Warden Eternal @clever fable
warm ridge
but what I think actually happened is Cortana hacked the Warden's mind into joining her.
humble yacht
She did
midnight loom
exactly
warm ridge
but the Warden still has some limited functions though. He wouldn't just purposely walk you right to Cortana, now would he?
humble yacht
We saw that in dominion splinter
midnight loom
like halsey sort of manipulated endless summer on onyx
humble yacht
The warden appears to retain a limited degree of autonomy
He can choose how he executed cortana’s orders
Usually he chooses the most brutal route
warm ridge
His functions is to protect the Domain though, and Cortana made him see Blue Team + Osiris as threats to the Domain, so his function basically made him fight them.
humble yacht
He saw them as threats to her
clever fable
chose a pretty dumb route with osiris tbh
midnight loom
hmmm true
warm ridge
Pretty sure he saw them as threats to the Domain, not necessarily Cortana. After all, he even talked to Chief about "ripping her out of the domain and destroying her"
versed helm
By the way, my sticking point is that Cortana reconstructed from a fragment or a splinter whatever wouldn't be Cortana.
midnight loom
#blueteamgotpissedincryptum
versed helm
I think it may well be.
warm ridge
Dude, the Warden was already hacked before H5.
humble yacht
And laments to her that he could not protect her from Chief
warm ridge
Way before H5 ever happened, he was hacked.
humble yacht
I know person, you misunderstood my statement
versed helm
Splinters and fragments are portions of a whole, and if there is no other portion presumably they are the whole, even if technically damaged or altered.
humble yacht
He considered ripping her from the domain before she hacked him
He was just recounting that thought tonchief
warm ridge
and he specifically told Chief to also do this as well.
in a threatening way sure, but he was suggesting it.
midnight loom
yeah i guess
humble yacht
I don’t remember that line
obsidian thistle
Cortana is already damaged tbh. Missing stuff, and other stuff as detailed in the Loot Crate Data Drops could also be information on how she was "corrupted".
warm ridge
It's also suggested he can travel through Cortana's thoughts/mind to some extent, such as figuring out his name is John etc.
humble yacht
When did he tell Chief to remove Cortana?
warm ridge
highly doubt Cortana would've told him this info.
humble yacht
No she probably told him
clever fable
corrupted meaning what, donk? They can be converted or convinced of different causes from their original positions, but that's not much different than intensive conversation, yeah?
humble yacht
Or he intercepted her communication to John
humble yacht
Or the domain had a dossier on John
clever fable
I'd imagine taking them apart in some form would break them.
obsidian thistle
Oh I encourage anyone wanting to "research" Cortanas condition to read the stuff here. https://www.halopedia.org/Halo_Legendary_Crate/Data_Drops#Series_2_2
humble yacht
Please don’t tell me that’s the subject Denver crap
midnight loom
Detroit become human
humble yacht
@versed helm he was just saying he could have if he didn’t think she was worthy
obsidian thistle
Oh I am saying everything in that. I aint focusing on the Denver stuff.
humble yacht
But he was just Saving face
Warden might be a little salty that Cortana tricked him
clever fable
Warden confirmed a chump
obsidian thistle
I tbh am under the impression that the Logic Plaque is "1" possibility for Cortanas state.
warm ridge
@obsidian thistle https://www.halopedia.org/Warden_Eternal/Quotes
humble yacht
It’s possible but not one I hope for
I want logic plague as far away from this as possible
clever fable
on the fence about it. Not a lot of amazing ways to take her going forward.
humble yacht
Yes
midnight loom
yeah
humble yacht
Warden has singularities used for teleportation
midnight loom
rlly?
obsidian thistle
I way prefer the "she was already broken in Halo 4" theory. Cause tbh she was rampant, and the Domain has never been stated to "repair" the broken damage caused.
warm ridge
he even says it right here: ""Tell me, 117. When you tear Cortana from the Domain and crush her in your gauntleted fist... will you feel remorse?! Will you even understand you have refused?""
midnight loom
intrsting
clever fable
singularity weapons would be cool to have in Halo. Does that plasma pistol from H5 count as one?
warm ridge
That's literally the Warden suggesting it Chimera, what are you talking about?
warm ridge
I think you are to be honest.
clever fable
humble yacht
It was a a statement meant to break chief’s resolve
By making him think going forward would require killing cortana
It didn’t mean he wanted chief to do it
warm ridge
Chief already understood that before hand I'm pretty sure, and I'm also pretty sure the Warden also understood this.
midnight loom
soviet anthem intesefies
humble yacht
It’s like you’ve never heard bad guy speech before
clever fable
Would the hammer do anything special, donk? What cool effects would you like to see associated with one.
warm ridge
Another point, the Warden was originally going to kill Cortana's fragments and take them out of the Domain, instead Cortana's fragments hacked his mind, and basically forces him to do his will. He does make pretty suggestive comments about getting rid of her quite a lot to.
humble yacht
I don’t see why hammers would be associated with wardens
midnight loom
guns?
midnight loom
hahaha
warm ridge
In fact, in H5 he says "When Cortana first found Genesis, I swore to protect her."
despite when Cortana 1st found Genesis, he sought to destroy her.
humble yacht
This is because H5 was written before dominion splinter
midnight loom
true
clever fable
Would be cool, yeah.
warm ridge
In a lore perspective, my view makes sense in terms of all the different lines.
and it'll probably be just that with Infinite.
humble yacht
Please provide an example of warden complaining about Cortana or wishing her ill in H5
Your previous example doesn’t count as we already established that as a psychological attack rather than a legitimate wish
warm ridge
Again..
Leading Blue team to where Cortana was
Not making enough effort to "kill blue team" at all (he clearly could of)
Basically telling Chief exactly what to do, but in a way where Cortana wouldn't be suspicious
It all pretty much makes sense, all the way from Cortana hacking his form to.
I again, don't understand why your so against it.
humble yacht
Because it’s an interpretation that ignores blatantly obvious context on top of other things he said
Warden also didn’t lead them to her
He got in their way several times
midnight loom
in my opinion, warden just works for her to take control later
humble yacht
“Telling him what to do” is again a gross misinterpretation of that Line
And as for not seriously trying to kill Chief, that could be chalked up to Cortana staging all of that from the getgo
To tug on chief’s protec mode
Make him think warden was somehow controlling her when in actuality, it was the other way around
That’s if you assume his efforts weren’t in earnest
When they probably were but ultimately limited by gameplay balance
Because fighting 100 wardens only sounds good on paper
humble yacht
Yes. But the issue some people bring up is that if she could have stepped in then, she could have always
midnight loom
but still, linda could multishot
gilded mason
if she could have stepped in then, she could have always
Basically.
humble yacht
Also earlier blue team say that if Cortana wanted to reign in the warden, she could
gilded mason
Oh yeah, that line supports it as well.
humble yacht
But she didn’t
warm ridge
Back but I don't understand why you think it's gross when it's pretty obvious.
humble yacht
She was testing blue team on purpose
warm ridge
Everything else he said also points to my view point of the entire thing, so.
humble yacht
It really doesn’t
warm ridge
I really don't understand your view point at all on this, considering it all points back to when Cortana hacked the Warden and forced him to do her will.
humble yacht
You can read up to see how I refute your assertions
warm ridge
I already read all of it, again, my interpretation of it just makes more sense considering what we know.
Even the Monitor of Genesis was confused, because it explicitly went against protocol.
midnight loom
i guess
humble yacht
The only way it makes sense (marginally) is if Cortana’s hack of warden were incomplete
But there is nothing to suggest that she doesn’t have complete control over him
warm ridge
Which it highly likely was, and she's only able to control where he is, and what he controls. Just like she did with the Monitor of Genesis.
except she didn't have full control over the Monitor, and instead opted to lock her out entirely.
humble yacht
All she did with exuberant was lock out her access to systems
warm ridge
exactly what I just said dude.
humble yacht
That’s not the same thing as controlling someone
midnight loom
dunno
humble yacht
Because one fragment distracts him while 100s more slip by into the domain
warm ridge
She was programmed with every single UNSC/ONI "hack algorithm" that they had in 2552.
warm ridge
she was basically made to hack into and control a Covenant ship. Combine this with the knowledge of hacking Forerunner systems on Installation 04, and the Ark, well...yeah.
humble yacht
By the time she hacked him she was already empowered by the domain
warm ridge
other places that Cortana was to btw.
midnight loom
yeah haha
warm ridge
Yes, Cortana hacked the Warden once she was in the Domain and was capable to, she wasn't capable of hacking him when she distracted him.
It's still highly suggestive that he at least has control over his thoughts, and only wants to catch Cortana when she isn't looking. Until then, he basically has to obey her every order.
humble yacht
He has control over how he acts
warm ridge
..and where do you see this?
humble yacht
But his thoughts are in support of her
Well unless Cortana explicitly told him to attack Meridian with extreme prejudice, then that was his decision
All she wanted was the guardian
warm ridge
Not really, according to the things that he said in H5, he only "pretends" to support her so he can obviously get on her good side until he can take her out.
humble yacht
Nothing you’ve pointed out suggests pretending
warm ridge
I believe she specifically sent the Warden to Meridian in order to guide Blue team, hence why he didn't just out right attack them once they arrived, but he did with Osiris.
humble yacht
Please point out something that actually says that he’s faking his lowyalty
warm ridge
literally every comment he made in H5 and how he again, told Chief pretty much what to do.
That's not exactly something you'd give up to your enemy.
humble yacht
Lol
Every line in halo 5 huh
“I stand in defense of Cortana”
“I failed to protect you”
warm ridge
clearly you've never heard the part where she hacked the Warden and pretty much controls his every move.
humble yacht
Controlling his actions can be independent of controlling his emotions
He doesn’t serve her begrudgingly
He acts overprotective and recognizes her as the true inheritor of the mantle
warm ridge
"Now having full access to the Domain, Cortana sought to accomplish great works with the keeper's help. Cortana reprogrammed him and appointed him as her guardian—her Warden Eternal"
humble yacht
If his hack were incomplete then he’d be attacking Chief while saying “get this blue girl out of my head please, I don’t want to serve her!”
warm ridge
Yes, he serves her begrudgingly quite often. Not sure how you don't see this.
humble yacht
Again
Please state an actual line where he sounds begrudged
Because you’ve yet to
warm ridge
Once again, obviously he isn't going to show Cortana that he still has limited function.
That'd be just, what?
I already showed you everything, you're just on the exact opposite side of it.
my proofs don't change dude lol
humble yacht
There are several times when Cortana tells warden to stop attack chief and he ignores her
How would that not be him showing her he had limited function remaining?
warm ridge
Obviously because she didn't "tell him to stop" at all. She simply communicated to Chief telling him to stop, but in actuality she wasn't.
Again, this goes to the line where Linda said she could've stopped the entire fight no problem. Just like she did when over 100 of them appeared.
humble yacht
Then that supports my assertion that she used warden as a ruse to manipulate Chief
But if he wanted to defy her he would have done the opposite of what she wanted
warm ridge
I'm not against that point at all, she was trying to get Chief and the entirity of Blue team to "join her", she makes that obvious before she decides to trap them inside the Cryptum.
humble yacht
Also everything else about that level suggests both warden and chief can hear her
Since he responds to her sometimes
warm ridge
He wouldn't of been able to defy Cortana at all due to again, she controls his every move, Duh.
warm ridge
@versed helm She didn't destroy the other bodies because she didn't want to. She wanted them to fight Chief, because she was literally controlling him from the beginning.
again, She could've stopped every single fight and teleported Chief immediately to where she was. Instead she chose not to, and according to the Monitor, they were "activating" tons of other things for hours.
humble yacht
Well it’s just a possibility
A likely one
But not explicitly stated that she orchestrated that whole level
So no harm in not subscribing to the theory
warm ridge
huh, no one has written down every single 031 Exuberant Witness line like they have with the Warden.
She even does the same "Protocol dictates action" just like Guilty Spark did in H1 lol.
midnight loom
sorry i was gone. bathroom break
warm ridge
BTW if you're wondering about the "wondering around the facility for hours" here https://youtu.be/SnAUGUmHutM?t=250 (yes it's time stamped)
If you keep listening, later on she was even attempting to activate several high level communication systems as well, probably what she needed Blue team for. Also probably why the "transmission" she did at the end of H5 was received by every organic being that we knew of to.