Do Guardians have any actual weapons? i know obviously the EMP thing, but do they have anyhting else?
#lore-and-universe
humble yacht
I think halopedia says they have secondary defense armaments
vague scroll
They have two hardlight point defense cannons as support weapons
humble yacht
Wouldn’t be useful against a fleet of ships
Apparently they have 6 beam emission weapons for self defense
vague scroll
Could of sworn it was 2 but I don’t have Halopedia or Warfleet in front me atm
humble yacht
Halopedia cites warfleet saying they have 6 beam weapons, 2 pulse emitters, and 1 disruption generator
vague scroll
Ah there we go
humble yacht
The pulse emitters are for disabling power systems
humble yacht
What gravity pulses?
vague scroll
The knockback effect of the pulses
No ones ever said they were gravity but I guess that’s just an assumption Donk made
In my fanfics, I describe them from characters’ unreliable POV as gravity waves since it seems like a logical conclusion but that doesn’t inherently make them so.
Real life gravity waves are generally harmless.
Science only recently confirmed they exist as well.
humble yacht
If you’re going based off the affect the pulses have on Locke in that final level, seems more akin to conclusive blasts than gravity
vague scroll
Concussive, yeah. Agreed.
humble yacht
Locke feeing “heavy” and moving slowly seems to be due to his suit malfunction due to the electronic attack
vague scroll
Not sure about that part given his shields take a notable dip.
But don’t fully go down on the first fire.
humble yacht
When you think about how much MJOLNIR weighs, when power assist starts to go, even a spartan would have trouble moving
vague scroll
I agree with that, but even, then, the effects are kind of odd, like how firearms still function if they’re electronically dependent.
More so Covenant weapons anyway.
I’d say at this point there have been at least a half dozen different interpretations of what the Guardian EMP-like pulses actually are and how they work
Half of MJOLNIR GEN1
And GEN1 is about 450 kg
Wait, correction, half ton or 1000 lbs
humble yacht
Gen 1 is 1000 lbs, yeah
vague scroll
Oh wait, my math was right... 450 kg-ish
humble yacht
So if gen 2 is half that’d be ~500
vague scroll
Or therefore, 225 kg
humble yacht
Blue Teams’ armors appears to be GEN2 versions of GEN1 platforms
vague scroll
the official weight of individual MJOLNIR GEN2 suits is unknown, on average they’re described as half that of GEN1.
humble yacht
I’m sure some gen 2 weigh more than the average and some less
humble yacht
Since gen 2 armors are largely dependent on function and role
vague scroll
There wouldn’t be much of a difference
GEN2 in theory is better than GEN1 anyway...
versed helm
Gen2 was designed to close the augmentation gap between S-II/S-III and S-IV
vague scroll
^
versed helm
it's more machination than augmentation
but that has a coupling effect with augmentation too
vague scroll
All Spartans are equivalent supposedly when wearing GEN2
versed helm
not exactly
vague scroll
Well, summing it up for layman’s terms based on what’s said in New Blood
versed helm
it enhances the abilities of S-II/III as well
vague scroll
They don’t
You don’t notice them being present during the rest of the campaign of Halo 5
humble yacht
Cracks
vague scroll
Yep
versed helm
the visr's aren't clear
humble yacht
The only time we’ve seen cracks on the inside was with 6’s final fight
vague scroll
^
versed helm
those broke through the entire visr though
Kat's VISR in the Deliver Hope trailer (if we can accept the representation of it as canon) provide a good insight as well
vague scroll
Well, the Chief had his visor smashed by the Didact in the Escalation comics
Had one eye visible for part of the finale of the Next 72 Hours
vague scroll
It’s cheaper to integrate old proven systems than develop new ones anyway
subtle depot
@versed helm Because the gen1 they are allowed to wear has been upgraded to gen2 specifications shield and thruster wise. The Spartans themselves prefer to use it sometimes just because gen1 is very reliable albeit basic. Its because they trust it will always function
vague scroll
Buccaneer is great, I can’t possibly see anything going wrong there
last anchor
I just wanna know where the hell it came from
humble yacht
Tony Stark built it in a cave with a box of scraps
vague scroll
Tbh, I love the concept.
It can do everything GEN2 can do but it came to form in an unknown, strange, unusual sort of way. Clearly someone out there figured out the UNSC's formula, the future of supersoldier wars on the frontier are bright.
vague scroll
what if Chief did it?
humble yacht
I doubt chief understands mjolnir enough to leak design info
He’s just like “can I kill things with if?”
stoic hamlet
^
versed helm
I don't think it's in John-117's character to tell people about how MJOLNIR works regardless of his actual familiarity with the tech
But it's worth noting that there's no way a military like the UNSC would just hand SPARTANs the earlier MJOLNIR Marks without handing them a giant thick instruction manual as well, even though the first time John used the shielded MJOLNIR he had to put it on in a hurry and go fight in it
He probably couldn't tell you how to -make- it, but he could definitely tell you everything he's been able to squeeze out of it
But he won't.
disclaimer: I have no information on Halo newer than Reach so I might be totally wrong now with all the post-Bungie weirdness, maybe John is just a brick in boots now, I wouldn't know :U
carmine sleet
Pretty sure that in The Fall of Reach, they didn't get told to learn how the armour worked and while in First Strike, we see Spartans fixing their armour by using pieces from fallen comrades, it seems more like they learnt that through practical learning opposed to reading technical manuals and whatnot
And the only time Chief has been referred to as a brick was in Halo 2
vague scroll
I did that as a joke... I should have clarified. Didn't intend for you all to seriously consider that idea.
@versed helm everything about its description suggests its perfectly functional and since SPARTAN-IVs can use it, meets safety and operational standards
on the other hand, its really popular among fans for recreating Semi-Powered Infiltration armor when paired with the Pilot or variants on the EVA/Hermes helmets
versed helm
Well, even though all Spartans are supposed to be "Even" with Gen 2, i still think Spartan-IIs and IIIs have an advantage based on Experience
vague scroll
Technically that's trivial as well since the majority of SPARTAN-IVs have combat records as long or as impressive as that of the S-IIs and S-IIIs, maybe not to the near-mythical feats of strength and killing prowess but in terms of actual combat experience, there are more than a few in their ranks that can compare.
Buck is proof of that.
versed helm
Buck still looks up to the IIs and IIIs and says they're superior and more God-Like than the IVs many times in New Blood
vague scroll
Right, but that doesn't mean its an accurate depiction since New Blood was written in the first person and is subject to the Unreliable Narrator.
That same quote has him describes the IIs as "gods", IIIs as "demigods", and IVs as heroes of some subordinate degree. In a lot of ways, that could be considered hero worship - especially when we've seen IVs go toe to toe with IIs and match them. There's a lot of talk about John toying with Locke but at the end of the day, the fight did involve them both getting in more than enough hits.
versed helm
Well, i say at first, Chief wasn't trying, but then when Locke breaks his Visor, he stepped it up a notch, and locke didn't even get in a hit.
humble yacht
Neither of them was really taking the other seriously
versed helm
I'm not saying IVs arent as efficient as killing as IIs, but in a battle, i think the majority of the time, a Spartan II would win
humble yacht
Also after the visor crack, Locke switched from striking to trying to attach the device
vague scroll
we don't know whether they did or not, at the end of the day, how we look at the fight is conjecture.
humble yacht
He essentially fought that round 2 with one hand
Honestly his mistake was showing it to Chief like that
He should have downed him and attached it while his back was turned
versed helm
Do you think chief knew what it was?
vague scroll
^
versed helm
It does annoy me that they didn't make Elites as Agile in H4 and H5
they were basically brutes
stable schooner
Breh how do you go from Spartans to slow Elites Olive Lol. And gameplaywise 4 Elites have the same speeds as Reach Elites.
obsidian thistle
I'd say Halo 4 and 5 Elites are closer to their Reach counterparts.
They have a lotta similar ques.
carmine sleet
I honestly don't get the whole notion that H4/5 Elites are just Brutes reskinned that people have. Sure, the Elites look different and have dirtier gear but I've never found them to behave like Brutes at all
gilded mason
I think it's the visual design and their movements during cutscenes that give the vibe.
stable schooner
Cutscenes especially that Throne one vs that real albino Elite.
Or how Osiris just smashes Madama and his so called Zealots
gilded mason
Like the Blue Team intro where that one Elite waddles with huge lumbering steps.
versed helm
Yes, those cutscenes
humble yacht
I think that cutscene is less about incompetent elites and more about super competent Spartans
gilded mason
I'm talkin' about the Elite's movements, though.
versed helm
Yes, but most elites are dangerous with a sword, and spartans don't just ro sham bo, and charge at one with a sword
stable schooner
Yeah basically every Cutscene in 4 and 5 shows Elites lumbering around. Compared to Reaches Cutscene Elites doing flips and Parkour lol
fair hazel
I think that’s because it’s repeating talking points made by more famous YouTuber. So they repeat.
humble yacht
I can see that being a strong case
stable schooner
Those are fighting words.
humble yacht
Wouldn’t be the first time something like that happened
gilded mason
I think that’s because it’s repeating talking points made by more famous YouTuber. So they repeat.
Not sure what you're saying there. Are you saying the issue only exists in some youtuber's mind and others are just repeating it with no substance, or...?
stable schooner
Or you know theirs People like me who have played every single game and see how much slower Elites move and lumber around in 4 and 5s Cutscene compared to say Elites in 2s or Reaches Cutscenes.
humble yacht
To that point i would question whether you have empirically measured movement speed of elites in each condition
Or if you’re just going off appearances
stable schooner
No I’d call it commons sense as no Elite in a single 5 or 4 Cutscene moves or runs like the Arbiter in Quarantine Zone or the Zealots in Winter Contingency for ex. I remember people complaining longer then when any of the big youtubers made their videos on it. I think you guys are blindly defending 343s design choices or cinematic direction here.
humble yacht
Or we’re just not labeling the scenes as inherently bad or good and are just taking them on their own merit
stable schooner
Calling the moment of the Elites stiff is not calling them inherently bad
humble yacht
I dunno about that
I’ve never heard those descriptions used positively
Relating nu-elites to being sluggish and clumsy seems like a negative factor as opposed to simply a description
feral perch
The Halo 3 Arbiter definitely has weird torso movements akin to the 4 and 5 Elites
stable schooner
So if someone like Elites being slower would they consider it bad? Yeah cause most people think it contradicts how Elites we’re portrayed and how their still portrayed in gameplay.
humble yacht
Just because a cutscene doesn’t display them doing flips doesn’t mean they lost the ability to do flips
The cutscene in 5 was all about showcasing the ability of the Spartans
unique rune
I don't mind that Sangheili in 4/5 aren't as... graceful.
Makes enough sense to me given that they're not exactly proper Covenant military anymore.
feral perch
The Arbiter in 5 is quite nimble and deadly. I think it’s more about portraying the Covenant in a way that shows they’re less competent and powerful than the original.
humble yacht
You take on the other hand that winter contingency cutscene with the zealots and it was trying to show the exact opposite: the formability of the zealots
So in that scenario, their movements were exaggerated in a way that made them seem extra dangerous because that’s what the artists wanted to depict
“Holy crap these elites are scary” vs “holy crap these Spartans are badass”
stable schooner
Arbiter in 5 is true but that all happens in Gameplay and doesn’t wash away the previous Cutscenes in the same game. Elites are never shown slow in Reach though.
Again calling the new Elites slower is not inherently calling them bad depending on how you feel about the Elites depiction
feral perch
Attacking Noble 6 at the end makes them look slightly like they’re bumbling. The point there was to show Six went down fighting.
It’s all about who you want to focus on as the coolest people in the room, imo.
humble yacht
Pretty much
Let’s say that Jul’s guard had gone toe to toe with Osiris for an extended period of time, only succumbing to Osiris after a close and hard fought skirmish
It wouldn’t have established Osiris as a team of expert hunters
stable schooner
But they still killed him/her our main character and they run towards him faster push him off his feet leaping on him. Not comparable to any 4 or 5 Cutscene at all
gilded mason
I mean, those were Jul's guards. I'd expect them to be highly skilled.
humble yacht
They were
Which the fact that Osiris killed them quickly means they even more skilled
stable schooner
Vale literally led that Elite off that cliff. Nothing proves their skilled in that Cutscene
gilded mason
I rewatched the cutscene, they moved like they were in molasses.
Which the fact that Osiris killed them quickly means they even more skilled
To be honest, it just made me roll my eyes at them. Or in Locke's case, sputter.
stable schooner
Still contributing our opinions to Youtubers is weak and honestly petty. This wouldn’t be a constant criticism for years if it didn’t exist.
gilded mason
It was a bit insulting, yeah.
humble yacht
Of all my issues with H5, that scene was pretty innocuous
I think it’s worth bringing up because there are plenty of people who simply parrot or bandwagon when it comes to H5 and criticism
Not everyone, of course, but enough where one has to wonder whether someone actually knows why they say what they say
stable schooner
Olive said Halo 4 and 5. 😑 sounds like 343 Blind defense to me and still is quite hurtful.
humble yacht
Well 343 blind defense and 343 blind hate are cut from the same cloth
stable schooner
I wouldn’t call calling 343 Elites slow Blind Hate.
humble yacht
It’s at the very least generalizing
When people talk about 343 being slow and weighted, it makes me wonder where these speed demon elites they seem to expect came from
Because Bungie elites never made me really think “oh these boys are fast”
Even that reach cutscene with the zealots
I saw in those elites skill over speed
stable schooner
Arbiter dodging Miranda’s Dual SMGs was fast. A lot of people have definitely gotten an agile view from scenes like the Zealot though. And it’s like I think 343s Halo 5 Hunters are a better imaging of Hunters then 80% of Bungie Hunters doesn’t mean I hate Bungie Halo.
stable schooner
Still enough to escape them and he leaped on Johnson.
vague scroll
As soon as someone calls something common sense, the topic becomes about conjecture, not fact.
stable schooner
I know but he leaped something 343 Elites in Cutscenes never do
vague scroll
So this discussion on whether Sangheili are agile or not in a depiction is for all intents and purposes a pointless rehash
vague scroll
Yeah, I know. But it’s better to point out why it’s a pointless endeavor than to continue treading the same topic points again and again.
humble yacht
You’d think
vague scroll
Discussing it tends to encourage repeat offenders.
humble yacht
But pointing out pointlessness never works
I’ve tried that plenty
People just get defensive
vague scroll
Hmm, I guess that’s true. I guess there’s no way around it.
humble yacht
“Oh my opinion is pointless? Freedom of speech!”
stable schooner
Cough not once in this convo did you say let’s agree to disagree. And it’s to be expected from a view point that a large amount of Halo fans share.
humble yacht
Well agree to disagree usually comes when one is tired of the discussion
I havent reached that point yet
Besides I’m not trying to change opinions
I’m just kinda of tired of hearing complaints
Whether towards 343 or bungie, for that matter
vague scroll
If you want to discuss the canon pretense (which wasn’t the point of the conversation but I digress), cutscenes aren’t fundamentally canon-perfect as all canon sources tend to be. There are reasons, one or another why or how something appears as they do.
It would be more practical and time effective if we were to discuss if gameplay elements are faster or slower but I think that’s been pointed out as cut and dry in that Halo 4 and Halo Reach Elite animation and programming are relatively similar.
humble yacht
I’m not sure if anything about discussing a video game can be considered “time effective”. It’s entertainment after all
If anything, this is a time waster
Not that I mind that
Time wasting is often fun
vague scroll
That’s one way to knock the wind from my sails but yeah, good point there.
humble yacht
If you cure cancer from discussing halo tho, let me know, I’ll give you a medal
stable schooner
Well their pathfinding is worst in 4 making them seem slower during gameplay but their speed is indeed the same but I mean since this Lore and Universe I didn’t want to approach this from a Gameplay standpoint
vague scroll
Fair. Just the issue that depictions in the cutscenes aren’t often what they appear to be, as the same can be said about other lore media. Just because something appears slow doesn’t necessarily mean it is.
The Locke and Chief confrontation is infamous for that reason.
humble yacht
I wish I could be wasting time at home on my console than at work on my phone
vague scroll
I know the feeling.
humble yacht
yeah, Lock vs Chief gets unfairly dunked on
not the best choreographed scene for sure, but it's also not the worst thing ever
and then people love to say that it's wrong because Chief should have decimated Locke in like 5 sec
and I'm just there shaking my head
vague scroll
It took some time for the scene to grow on me, I didn’t particularly like it - still don’t, but I don’t hate it or even dislike it. Just initial shock of it not really feeling the same way that the Spartans felt during the first Osiris cutscene.
And I’m saying that from initial impression. I’m not particular to the scene whether it fits or not, I still mildly agree with the commonly noted feeling about that first Halo 5 opening cutscene feeling somewhat similar to the Avengers Ultron film cold open stylistically.
humble yacht
i wonder if that scene was mo-capped and that's why it seemed to lack in flamboyance
vague scroll
I have pretty good reason to believe it was mocapped.
Not that I have proof of such.
humble yacht
it did feel oddly realistic for a future super soldier fight
almost like a modern MMA fight
gilded mason
Can't imagine why it wouldn't be mocapped.
vague scroll
Having watched MMA, yeah it does look like it. A bit flashy here and there but it definitely seemed more like a MMA fight.
humble yacht
I mean that in the sense that it looks so clandestine because it's limited by the actors' ability to display a fight
instead of what you see in the opening cutscene
gilded mason
I think it would've helped if there was some editing to make the arm movements quicker. Or something.
humble yacht
it could have stood for some extra flair, sure
anyways
MB is dead, change my mind
😏
gilded mason
Consider this:
I don't want him to be dead. So he isn't.
humble yacht
but he wanted to be dead
gilded mason
His wants matter nothing to me.
vague scroll
Silly, robots don’t have emotions!
versed helm
isn’t he technically still alive? or at least a fragment
vague scroll
Olive, we’re joking.
humble yacht
I said "change my mind" ironically. I thought it went without saying that people who say that aren't actually looking to have their minds changed
vague scroll
I declare the Created an illegitimate form of government because my local representative is a very complex math problem!
versed helm
neat
humble yacht
but yeah, aside from the obvious gravitas of him dying on Installation 08, while technically he's not explicitly stated as dead, every bit of lore suggests that he died on the ring
or rather, there is no lore out there that suggests he didn't
even the lore around who brought the SoF to the Ark doesn't obviously point to MB
(though that's a theory that MB-survivalists cling to)
gilded mason
even the lore around who brought the SoF to the Ark
I wonder when that will ever be resolved.
last anchor
Probably in Infinite or near it if I had to guess
gilded mason
Eh, I don't see Infinite resolving HW plotlines
deft pulsar
@versed helm thanks man
versed helm
I went AFK so I couldn't respond to this when you said it, but -
Slipstream TechnicianToday at 10:37 AM Pretty sure that in The Fall of Reach, they didn't get told to learn how the armour worked and while in First Strike, we see Spartans fixing their armour by using pieces from fallen comrades, it seems more like they learnt that through practical learning opposed to reading technical manuals and whatnot
Yes, I explicitly pointed out that the Master Chief was introduced to the shielded version of MJOLNIR without a proper briefing because things were rushed due to Covenant invasion. I seriously doubt that they'd be handing him the original MJOLNIR he used without giving him a super-thick manual and training on it that we just didn't get to see on-camera. Recall that his original MJOLNIR armor was used during the late Insurrection and was filthy and battle-scarred by the time he got the shielded version and Cortana
My point stands: Spartans are probably given tons of instructions on how to use, maintain and fix their gear like any military personnel
carmine sleet
I was referring to when they got their first suits, Mark IV, not Mark V. I should've been clearer
They were given a briefing on what the armour is but they weren't given any sort of instruction manual to read
versed helm
My dude, Fall of Reach did massive timeskips a lot and left most of the Spartans' operations and education implied
I don't think Eric Nylund would've said "John returned to his barracks and picked up the 600-page instruction manual that was issued to him during briefing and began to read about biofoam injection ports."
last anchor
Spartans learn faster than normal humans anyway
versed helm
Just like how Top Gun doesn't go and show Tom Cruise cracking open the F-14C manual and reading for 5 hours
last anchor
Also they didnt have time to get the full covering, they got the MK IV and then the Unrelenting came back aroudn and Chief was liek "lets mess that thing up!"
versed helm
they do everything faster, except survive
They also do hypnotic suggestion during cryo in the Halo universe that helped get Blue Team up to speed
versed helm
Is it not? It's been a few years since I read it but I could've sworn that they feed some info during cryo
vague scroll
Sounds like Starcraft 2
deft pulsar
So I have the spartan field manual (the new one) and it says in Johnson's file that he was the first spartan?
vague scroll
project Orion 1
vague scroll
^
versed helm
Volunteers were augmented using chemical means and special training, not the full-on cyborg experience the S-IIs got
spartan-Is were way different
vague scroll
they’re not actually Spartans but considered them due to the sequence of evolution in UNSC supersoldier projects
humble yacht
^
versed helm
It's worth noting that Fall of Reach did a bunch of things that flew directly in the face of the games and future canon because Eric Nylund wrote it in 6 weeks and it hit the bookstore shelves before Halo 1 even came out
last anchor
The S-Is were the cornerstone of Halseys work.
She retroactively deisgnated them S-Is
humble yacht
Spartan-I is an unofficial designation
vague scroll
^
versed helm
Called the Spartan-IIs to honor the people from the ORION project
last anchor
Hence the S-IIs, IIIs, so forth.
I wonder if Nylund knew about the S-Is of if he just decided "Spartan-II" sounded super cool.
versed helm
i don't think Halsey led the S-1 project
last anchor
She did not no
She wasnt even an adult when it was initated. Im not sure she was alive
versed helm
Orca I think Nylund got handed the early version of the canon bible as it existed in 2001
Nyu land didn’t make the term Spartan-II up
And it probably mentioned that John was a S-II but didn't really say a lot about ORION
carmine sleet
Halsey only worked on the S-IIs. S-IIIs was led by Ackerson and S-IV was Musa
vague scroll
@versed helm on the other hand, Nylund didn’t consult with Bungie much when writing the novel either
deft pulsar
Let me get this straight.
Johnson is a Orion volunteer
Orion is basically what they did the Steve Rogers from marvel
I'm I right or close to it
vague scroll
Close enough
last anchor
Basically
versed helm
I have a friend who insists that -all- of Fall of Reach isn't canon because there is no artificial gravity on human ships in the book
vague scroll
Oh boy, that’s funny
versed helm
Whereas you see that there's gravity on the Autumn at the beginning of Halo
Anyone watch Eckharts ladder here for Lore?
But... Autumn is under thrust, and also it's a game from 2001 where they had to move the camera around a stationary model to make Autumn look like it was moving at all
Halo 1 is like... 40% compromises
vague scroll
The term “retroactive retcon” comes into play a lot in regards to a lot of large literary franchises
versed helm
(and a wonderful game)
gilded mason
retroactive retcon
That sounds redundant.
gilded mason
lol
versed helm
But yeah to get back to my original point: I'm sure the majority of S-IIs had plenty of instruction on the care and operation of their armor, it just doesn't make good media to have them sit down and read it for hours
deft pulsar
I'm replaying halo 4 and I was thinking about the infinity.
Where are its main canons?
carmine sleet
Isn't retcon short for retroactive continuity anyway?
vague scroll
In the front
versed helm
It's more fun to write Spartans playing with knives and whistling Oly Oly Oxen Free
gilded mason
Isn't retcon short for retroactive continuity anyway?
Yeah.
vague scroll
@carmine sleet you’re on the money
deft pulsar
U mean the mac @vague scroll
vague scroll
Yes
humble yacht
ugh
vague scroll
Those are the main guns
versed helm
One thing i quite still don’t understand is “The Domain” can someone explain to me basically what it is?
humble yacht
Lore says Infinity has 2 super MACs on the front
but H4 shows the weapons being beam weapons
smh
versed helm
I'm not gonna lie, I checked out of the Halo canon after Ghosts of Onyx and Reach
vague scroll
Have you tried Halopedia first? @versed helm
versed helm
Forerunner tech is my weak point in lore
gilded mason
One thing i quite still don’t understand is “The Domain” can someone explain to me basically what it is?
Huge thingy of data and knowledge...and stuff.
versed helm
It's not that I hate Halo or anything, it's just that my life exploded around 2013 and never got back to a point where I had time to think about it
gilded mason
versed helm
Hell, one of my IRL friends works for 343
feral perch
It's a living entity that contains the sum of all Forerunner and Precursor knowledge. It has the ability to alter this information as it sees fit. afaik
versed helm
Isnt it basically just a huge library?
humble yacht
if the librarians wrote all the books in the library, then yes
versed helm
that... can change history?
didn't they laminate a bunch of humans and kig-yar and keep them in Tupperware just in case the Halo Array was fired?
last anchor
Not quite.
Its basically a slipspace-borne knowlage and expereince repository
last anchor
More or less yeah
versed helm
wow, internet neat
vague scroll
It also seems to have its own conscience but that’s a story for a different time
humble yacht
who said it's in slipspace?
feral perch
Isn't it "Abaddon?"
last anchor
Well Cortana got to it via a slipspace jump
versed helm
also i heard the halo books did something incomprehensibly stupid and wrote 343 Guilty Spark to be like... a human mind in an orb now??? Like, 343 Guilty Spark had a childhood as some kind of primitive human???
vague scroll
Abaddon’s actual status is...
versed helm
Gravemind does NOT have access to the domain, correct?
is this true, please tell me it isn't
vague scroll
Questionable
feral perch
facepalm
last anchor
Spark's a composed human, yes.
feral perch
There's nothing wrong with that bruh.
last anchor
As are all Instillation mointors
humble yacht
Cortana got to Genesis via slipspace
versed helm
That's....
humble yacht
genesis is connected to the domain
versed helm
Isn’t Genesis the largest Planet we know of so far?
feral perch
Spark was a person who was severely injured. Not a child, a fully-grown person, afaik.
deft pulsar
If u look at the spirit of fire it has starboard and port side cannons and I know the spirit is a older ship but the infinity is a way bigger target and a larger ship sould have cannons or weapons around the ship or on its sides.
versed helm
So uncalled for? Why did Spark need lore like that? Couldn't he just be a weird AI created to care for the Arrays?
gilded mason
I imagine it fits better when read about in the book itself.
vague scroll
I mean Slipspace is a lot more versatile than Halo regular lore lets on
humble yacht
I don't think the Domain exists in slipspace or is Slipspace-born
last anchor
So Chief opens the Domain for her and THATS how she pulls in all the Guardians?
feral perch
Why does it bother you lol?
last anchor
That makes more sense to me
vague scroll
You need to read the Forerunner trilogy mate, it works out well
versed helm
It doesn't really jibe with anything we've learned about Spark up till that point
humble yacht
no, she was in the domain before contacting chief
versed helm
He was just a weird prissy toaster that dispensed exposition and made the story happen
feral perch
Sure it does.
versed helm
He was literally deus ex machina
vague scroll
Well, remember 343i chose to split ancient Humans and Forerunners as separate species
humble yacht
not true
feral perch
What's wrong with giving him a backstory? also Bungie did that
versed helm
They were? weren’t they
humble yacht
Bungie technically did that
gilded mason
Bungie already did that
versed helm
Does that mean 2401 Penitent Tangent was also an injured child? Mendicant Bias? The Didact and the Librarian?
vague scroll
Fair point
last anchor
Kinda/sorta. Bungie didnt really KNOw I dont think.
At least, they didnt have it written in stone yet
feral perch
Spark (his human name is Chakas) was not a child
versed helm
KNOw
humble yacht
2401 PT was a composed human, afaik
vague scroll
All halo monitors are
feral perch
Also, 000 Tragic Solitude was a composed Forerunner. He was the monitor on the Ark.
carmine sleet
I'm glad that Forerunners aren't ancient humans honestly, given how cliche it would've been
versed helm
Another thing we haven’t confirmed yet, Is OB able to be Logic plagued?
I liked the notion of the Monitors just being tools left to their own devices, like if your Roomba lost its mind after being left to work for millions of years
gilded mason
Actually, isn't a compelling theory out there was MB is actualy a bunch of composed humans?
versed helm
That's not goodd! I don't like that!
last anchor
Thats the one I heard
vague scroll
OB has a resistance to logic plague
last anchor
And that Offensive Bias was too
humble yacht
OB came into contact with the plague at the height of it's pathology and came away clean
humble yacht
so it appears that he is unable to be affected
versed helm
I don't like the notion that humans ARE made into monitors, that humans are The Most Important Species in the Canon
I thought that OB isn’t able to because he doesn’t care about anything excerpt for beating Mb
I'm fine with the whole "reclaimer/heir" thing
humble yacht
That's what I asserted about OB
last anchor
Well the Precursors did decide we'd be their reclaimers.
Then the Forerunners took issue with that and killed the Precursors.
humble yacht
he simply didn't consider the argument
feral perch
... but humans are the most important species in the canon. Also, some Forerunners were composed into Monitors. At least one. Not just humans.
deft pulsar
The knights are humans turned computers
gilded mason
but humans are the most important species in the canon.
no thank you
versed helm
i would make the arguement Forerunners are the most “important”
feral perch
yeah yeah yeah Sangheili lover 😉
versed helm
I just... Why was that a necessary choice? Does it truly add to their characters as they existed in the games and books? It seems bizarrely tacked on
Split lip
vague scroll
Because they wanted to go that route
versed helm
What about the Monitor aboard High Charity that raged out at the San'shyuum?
vague scroll
That’s MB mate
versed helm
Was that a human mind too?
humble yacht
that was an MB fragment
feral perch
I certainly think it does. 343 Guilty Spark's shell contained multiple personalities, actually. Not just his former human self, which was locked away so that Spark didn't remember he was a human. @versed helm
humble yacht
i think, unless you talking about a different AI than we thinking of
versed helm
So... Why would you make him a former human at all if it has no bearing on the Spark we saw in the games and books?
feral perch
And it'd quite possible that 2401 Penitent Tangent from Halo 2 was human at one point.
versed helm
"He was a human but he has no memory of that and it doesn't impact his character in any way"
vague scroll
Because people wanted more Guilty Spark...
feral perch
What do you mean books? He was only in The Flood novelization of CE before the Forerunner Trilogy
vague scroll
The Forerunner Trilogy and the recent Renegades book both focus heavily on Spark
feral perch
It actually does impact his character in one of the latest Halo novels.
versed helm
I'm trying to cover all my bases here, StoneWall, because people like you keep trying to make "gotcha" arguments
feral perch
What do you mean?
versed helm
So I mentioned the book(s) because I knew he was in some
vague scroll
He’s still alive is the point, I think we need to emphasize, his story didn’t end in Halo 3
versed helm
I felt like if I said "the Spark we know in the games" then someone would say "HE IS IN THE BOOKS TOO"
Hall 3
vague scroll
Best game ever amirite?
feral perch
if you go into lore and universe, prepare to be corrected. That's like, the entire point of this channel. It's happened to me and everyone else plenty.
vague scroll
Warthog run going down empty hallways.
versed helm
StoneWall, I don't mind being corrected, I do mind when people throw out my entire statement to point out a single mistake
feral perch
you just summed up this channel lol. I'm being partly sarcastic, heh.
Everyone is great here, no offense.
vague scroll
This is that place for gotcha arguments
feral perch
wait no
versed helm
No Offensive Bias
feral perch
come back my love
versed helm
So... this channel doesn't exist to discuss lore, it just exists for people to show off their ability to recall meaningless errata? Cool
vague scroll
He’s a robot he can’t return your affection Stonewall.
humble yacht
queue Lonely Man Theme from Incredible Hulk
versed helm
Is OB able to even have a conversation about anything other than MB?
feral perch
What if I'm into being ignored?
vague scroll
Then you’re perfect
humble yacht
Pretty sure OB is capable of such a convo but would chose not to engage in it
feral perch
cash register noise
humble yacht
Kind of like Android 16 with Goku
vague scroll
@versed helm it’s not but this channel does tend to be that way since you have a half dozen people at peak hours discussing a variety topics at breakneck speeds
feral perch
that's Nathan Fillion eyeing a cup of coffee.
humble yacht
i paused the cutscene at just the right time
versed helm
I feel like... the Forerunner era of Halo is best left shrouded in mystery, innuendo and implication, and the more we learn about what happened before the Halo array was fired for the first time, the less I care?
Some mysteries are best left up to speculation
gilded mason
I get you there.
vague scroll
I feel you there 110%
But I’ve kind of just accepted that this is the way the series went, I’ve had time to recouncile that concern
versed helm
We have to usually make huge assumptions about the Forerunners, to try and make arguement a, which i think 343 and bungie has bungie on keeping it vague
vague scroll
And decided just to find enjoyment in the fact that it has gone this way instead.
versed helm
Yeah, for me I stepped away from the series to deal with exploding life syndrome since Reach came out and now I'm starting to peek back in and .... I'm finding a lot of confusing stuff that makes me say, "What? Why!"
humble yacht
Sometimes fiction and wish fulfillment don't go hand in hand
versed helm
For the record, plenty of stuff pre-Reach also made me ask the same question of "Why would they do that"
feral perch
Hamish Beamish is a thing
versed helm
This isn't about "new is weird and bad I don't like it" and more about ... How does this impact the story as I know it? Does it make sense?
feral perch
He'll probably save the universe
vague scroll
I came into the series with Reach so I’m certainly a product of that generation with being more comfortable with where the series has gone
versed helm
I found it strange when I heard that a bunch of the cast of ODST reappears to become Spartans and get into backstabbing contests
feral perch
I got into Halo after buying an action figure of Jun because he looked cool.
feral perch
oh? how come?
versed helm
Honestly I always found the Flood to be the weakest part of the series overall, they were the part of the setting you had to suffer through to get to the really great stuff
humble yacht
to me, pre-Bear flood was just a misunderstood lifeform trying to survive
versed helm
Making the Gravymind more complex helped a bit, but still...
humble yacht
and that made it more interesting
feral perch
Hmmm, how do you feel about Prometheans?
obsidian thistle
I kinda prefer post Legends Flood. Aka the Flood when its like a liquid. And it being like an actual Flood.
vague scroll
Neural Physics, everywhere!!!
humble yacht
I'm fine with prometheans
versed helm
I know very little to nothing about them but it's my understanding the Didact reappeared to hateboner out on humanity and I think it's kind of dumb
My only true opinion of prometheans is that I heard their AI isn't very fun to fight in the games
feral perch
I see.
humble yacht
I don't get why an anti-Flood armiger would need a scary skull but w/e
vague scroll
The halo 4 depiction of the Didact is generally considered the weakest link in the narrative
vivid dust
that's an interesting take
feral perch
You need a lot of backstory from the Forerunner Trilogy by Greg Bear to understand the Didact's motivations. You get that in encapsulated form from the Halo 4 Terminals.
versed helm
I feel like adding additional factions to the narrative in the post-3 era when there was so, SO much fodder to explore in the aftermath of the Human-Covenant war was not the best choice
vague scroll
It’s one of those complaints that didn’t go away In Halo 5 either, that you needed to read a lot of background material to enjoy the full story
humble yacht
it's likely because they wanted to move away from the classic covenant species a bit
versed helm
I was very interested to see what kind of factionalism, civil war, politics, and new allies might come out of the armistice
feral perch
Halo 4 did deal with that somewhat, and the Kilo-5 trilogy especially focused on those issues.
gilded mason
I'm fine with Prometheans if they change gameplay stuff regarding them, outside the H5 Knight. Felt those had a nice miniboss appeal. But visual-wise, I'd prefer a different route.
obsidian thistle
Actually I found them to be understandable in the exposition cutscenes. And stuff off the beaten path. (The Didacts motives)
humble yacht
oh, a mainline halo game needs bigger stakes than political intrigue
obsidian thistle
But tbh its not 100% clear.
vague scroll
A bigger narrative complaint I have regarding the post-HCW era is that it’s a period of time only sectioned off to 5 years in universe
humble yacht
though I would like a spinoff that gets a little more personal and smaller stakes
versed helm
B-but why? Why do that when you could start showing the ambition of the Jiralhanae or the privateering space piracy of the Kig-Yar or the hidden mental potential of the Unggoy? What about the Yanme'e and their bugger power structure?
vague scroll
It’s not really enough time to feel out that time period
gilded mason
A bigger narrative complaint I have regarding the post-HCW era is that it’s a period of time only sectioned off to 5 years in universe
I really wish H4 was set maybe a decade or two later.
versed helm
You could do so many things with the setting. Human/Sangheili co-ed colonies.
feral perch
Halo Wars 2 does deal with the ambition of the Jiralhanae if you want to check that out.
vague scroll
They’ve managed to begin addressing that already Pidge
humble yacht
that sounds like fanfic
feral perch
Oh, and Halo: Envoy and Halo: Legacy of Onyx both have humans and Sangheili living close or alongside one another
vague scroll
@humble yacht maybe but Halo: Envoy is the beginnings of one
gilded mason
that sounds like fanfic
It's already happening?
obsidian thistle
The Yanme for the most part went back to their homeworld. Some still served in Juls Covenant. But it seems they werent a major role.
humble yacht
yeah it's just the phrasing
versed helm
Imagine if they built a new High Charity-esque station over the glassy remains of Reach and it became a sci-fi tower of babylon where lots of races come together to live, work, shop and play
humble yacht
co-ed colony
feral perch
so you may enjoy these servings of fiction
vague scroll
Ah okay
feral perch
... That's boring though. We need explosions, not cooperation. /s
humble yacht
sounds like someone wants more of that palmer poem
versed helm
Well, of course, then something comes to threaten that new peace
And they gotta band together or pick a side
stable schooner
Palmer poem was only the first Step
versed helm
It's not like Halo is incapable of doing this - the Insurrection brought some really good fiction
humble yacht
... stop
feral perch
Legacy of Onyx would probably appeal to you a quite a lot @versed helm
gilded mason
I hope that elite writes fanfiction next.
gilded mason
You know you want it
humble yacht
don't even go there
vague scroll
Kilo-5 touches on the internal crises of the UNSC and ONI, Sangheili civil wars, the Blooding Years, Halsey bad, Infinity - it covers a lot of stuff
feral perch
... Human named
versed helm
I think the last Halo book I read was uh
feral perch
Commander Palmer
versed helm
Also one of the best ones in my opinion and it was about
gilded mason
Love that one!
feral perch
would read 10/10
versed helm
Shoot, I can't remember the name but it was on an awful little space colony called The Rubble
gilded mason
Cole Protocol?
feral perch
The Cole Protocol
versed helm
Yeah that was a fun book, I liked the exploration of the different species' goals and interactions
Even if the pacing made me tired sometimes
vague scroll
@humble yacht if you like, I can send you a fanfic based on Palmer and that SOS Elite
humble yacht
I think a spin off game would be a great setting for that kind of thing
vague scroll
It’s a fun read
feral perch
man, Thel is a jerk in that book.
gilded mason
@vague scroll
Gimme.
feral perch
._.
versed helm
I guess what I really want is just Halo: Deep Space Nine
humble yacht
but any game with the Chief needs all of humanity to be at stake or it's like "what's the point"
vague scroll
It’s PG
gilded mason
👍
feral perch
there's summat 'afoul too-nite, and it's one o' dem fanfictions....
versed helm
Chimera, I was content with leaving the Chief on ice pretty much forever
versed helm
I was happy with letting his story end indefinitely, dude needs a nap
gilded mason
I guess what I really want is just Halo: Deep Space Nine
I like the sound of that.
obsidian thistle
I still wonder what post-2610 Halo is like.
versed helm
I've heard vague things about how Cortana's Rampancy was handled and ... noooooo. Nooooo ;;
vague scroll
I'd share the fanfic here but I don't think anyone cares to actually look at it besides Ostral
gilded mason
lol
vague scroll
plus links are weird on this discord
versed helm
oh and my favorite Halo book is probably Contact Harvest
feral perch
Cortana is evil and she's taken over the galaxy.
versed helm
Even if I can't visualize Mack the AI as anything but the TF2 Engineer
feral perch
well, not quite, but she's using Forerunner police cars to make people do what she wants. In a nutshell, lol.
vague scroll
that's oddly accurate...
obsidian thistle
Well post-2610 is the wild west of Halo. We have zero idea of what happens after January 2610. For all we know something big happens
feral perch
which one?
versed helm
Here's how old I am: I participated in the ilovebees ARG and picked up one of the "axon" payphones
vague scroll
@obsidian thistle I've made it a personal thing not to encourage Halo fanon writers to write in that era because its so blank
humble yacht
versed helm
I played a little Marathon when I was a kid too, I figured Cortana would EVENTUALLY become evil, I just didn't expect it to be done in such a silly way
humble yacht
you can't fill in canon with fanon tho
vague scroll
technically if its not been addressed HF allows it in its rulebook
gilded mason
@versed helm
If you're interested in more Covenant stuff, I recommend Broken Circle and Shadow of Intent. Silent Storm and Oblivion also have a good amount of time devoted to Covenant perspectives.
versed helm
Can we at least agree that the Keyes Loop wasn't as much of a galaxy-brain maneuver as it seems to be
vague scroll
yeah...
versed helm
Technically it shouldn't have worked at all, plasma torpedoes are supposed to be faster than the UNSC ships??
I feel like any emergency thrusters that could move the ship fast enough to dodge the torpedoes would also turn the crew into paste
vague scroll
that's the point of artificial gravity
feral perch
don't you dare insult a foundational naval victory in the halo universe
versed helm
there wasn't artificial gravity in Fall of Reach, Tide
They made a point of talking about "wow, the covie ships have artificial gravity somehow, cool"
versed helm
You're arguing retcons save the thing from the BOOK WHERE IT HAPPENED??
vague scroll
I'm arguing from present canon, don't really care how the book depicted it
feral perch
now you're getting the hang of discussions here
versed helm
Fall of Reach had the Keyes Loop, and in the Fall of Reach, there was no gravity on UNSC ships, so why would artificial gravity save them from themselves
vague scroll
things have changed, can't take the book at face value anymore
vague scroll
then Reach is in question too...
feral perch
won't be long til you're calling someone's opinion trash. sniffle They grow up so fast.
vague scroll
I feel old now.
versed helm
The Fall of Reach came out 18 years ago
feral perch
were it so easy
versed helm
But if we're just going to selectively discard events that happened in it as "non canon" then you're basically chopping away at the very foundation of the setting
versed helm
I... Augh!!
vague scroll
deleted, etc, etc
gilded mason
Them's the breaks.
obsidian thistle
Well the 2010 (well 2011 version if you really wanna be exact due to the fumbles in the 2010 version) version is the one we use.
versed helm
So you can use Fall of Reach as ammunition for your arguments when it's convenient for you, but if someone else uses the same book's contents, sometimes in the same -chapter- to refute those points, it doesn't matter?
Aaaa fandom is so exhausting aaaaaa
vague scroll
did I ever use Fall of Reach for anything?
versed helm
What did they change for the reprint???
Y-you specifically were arguing with me that artificial gravity protected people during an event in a book that had no artificial gravity
vague scroll
I don't remember. Pretty much my argument since jumping on here today was "you can't take depictions as they are"
obsidian thistle
Oh they fixed stuff later lore from the og release retconned
versed helm
Also I'm pretty sure that there is still inertia on UNSC ships, don't people fall over when they get hit?
vague scroll
that's the point of artificial gravity is it not?
versed helm
This makes so little sense, I am getting a headache, I'm just gonna shut up, you win I guess x_x;
vague scroll
sorry, looks like I killed someone's appetite, I've felt that on here before, you tend to get used to it
versed helm
So... regardless of artificial gravity, if a ship essentially fires several megatons of force through sideways thrusters, people inside are gonna get shaken up pretty badly
obsidian thistle
Ah the Commissioning trailer
versed helm
Whatever x_x; I'm out
humble yacht
underrated trailer
vague scroll
^
feral perch
everything is canon in Nylund (and Dietz) original books... except when it isn't, or is contradicted by anything newer than 2011, except Halo: Reach because we don't really know what is and isn't truly canon in certain instances there.
humble yacht
I kind of wish the theme of the game followed that horror theme of the trailer
vague scroll
welcome to the wild world of Halo lore, where everything is upside and inside out, I have to be frank and say, that's just how it is
feral perch
need an infusion?
stable schooner
Remember when Zealots were unique. Pre 2010 Bungie Remembers. Hey at least 343 is trying to make everything fit. Ok that trailer was pretty sick
vague scroll
maybe a back breaker
gilded mason
There there, BiR.
obsidian thistle
Well
Is anything really unique really unless explicitly said by the people heavily linked to said things/people
gilded mason
Me.
feral perch
who r is?
gilded mason
I am the only real thing here.
feral perch
nice
humble yacht
you're just brain chemicals
stable schooner
I mean if I cook a chocolate cake with sprinkles and Bananas on it but then remake it and it’s just a vanilla Cake I’d say it’s no longer unique
obsidian thistle
I forgot they kinda did...
versed helm
That's kinda what the bad guys from 4 and the Monitors are now, right?
"ooh we're humans from the Flood Wars that uploaded ourselves into robots"
humble yacht
Not really
sudden shuttle
hmm
gilded mason
Digital minds, rather.
obsidian thistle
Its "kinda" that. The devices used to store essences look like a brain.
feral perch
Forerunners and humans
versed helm
I'm just gonna leave Halo alone in my brain, permanently in a time capsule from right after Reach came out, a lot of this really hurts my perception of the series
sudden shuttle
343 has done a good job expanding halo lore tho, just not really on halo 5
versed helm
So many writers never asking themselves, "I can do this... but should I?"
humble yacht
They didn’t choose to become bots
versed helm
I just read the entire segment on "The Composer" and none of this sounds like a good story lmao
vague scroll
The didact zapped them with a death ray that makes them robots
versed helm
"we're going to devolve your genome and enslave your race because... reasons"
feral perch
Chakas was a friend of the Iso-Didact, Bornstellar-makes-eternal-lasting. He had his Geas, or genetic imprint, forcibly removed from him by a certain character. This damaged him so much that the only way to save him was for the Iso-Didact to upload his consciousness into the Monitor's shell. He was given a new personality, and that was 343 Guilty Spark.
"because... reasons?" No lol.
versed helm
I do not like any of that statement! Why couldn't he have just been made as a piece of equipment and slowly lost his mind like every other AI?
I don't feel like this adds depth, it just makes my head hurt
sudden shuttle
what.
feral perch
The Forerunners did that because ancient humanity attacked them, or rather, were burning their worlds to stop Flood infestation. It was seen as outright aggression and an act of war, so they devolved them to a point where they were no longer a threat.
versed helm
To me, this is the same kind of thing as "Dumbledore was always homosexual, it just wasn't relevant to Harry's story"
sudden shuttle
what are you talking about.
feral perch
... No, no it's not.
versed helm
What does this add to Spark? What does this add to his depictions as we've seen him up to this point? Why couldn't he just be that weird light bulb that runs the Installation?
stable schooner
Breh I’m really enjoying this channel today lol
carmine sleet
Because most AI aren't just made as simple equipment in Halo. Most Smart AI are created using a recently deceased brain
versed helm
Every single piece of new information on the Forerunners just makes them less mysterious, less powerful-seeming, less unknowable, and more just like... really big jerks
except for cortana
sudden shuttle
because they were?
obsidian thistle
Fun fact the voice actor of Spark loved Primordium. He actually also read the Audiobook. ;)
sudden shuttle
they tortured humanity and did flood tests on them
versed helm
I know how AI are built, Technician, I know about Smart AI, I know Dumb AI, I even played Marathon Durandal
they wanted to find a cure
feral perch
a new novel, called Renegades, expands on Chakas/Guilty Spark. He may have a part yet to play in future Halo games... maybe. There's some serious character development for him that really draws from the lore we find out about him in the Forerunner Trilogy.
versed helm
I just don't see why it had to be a human mind in this millions-of-years-old machine that goes around humming "Hmm hm hm, I am a genius! Ehehee!"
sudden shuttle
they killed the primordials and caused the start of the flood because they didn't have the mantle
vague scroll
Precursors*
feral perch
The Forerunners were jerks.
carmine sleet
Marathon isn't part of Halo, Pidge, just so you know
sudden shuttle
yeah precursors
versed helm
I know that, I'm expressing my long-term commitment to Bungie stuff
sudden shuttle
got mixed up
vague scroll
primordial is a term referring to the Gravemind variant in the Forerunner trilogy
sudden shuttle
yeah my bad
vague scroll
np
versed helm
You seem to be treating me like a clueless newbie and I'm trying to explain that you don't have to explain simple canon concepts to me
feral perch
I mean, building a set of ring worlds that wipes out the entire *GALAXY doesn't communicate "nice guys" to me, heh.
sudden shuttle
including when you build 7 of them
vague scroll
13 of them
sudden shuttle
13? huh
vague scroll
original set was 13
sudden shuttle
i'm losing my mind then huh
versed helm
i’m LOVING that the lore chat is active for once
vague scroll
nah, just too many books to keep track of
vague scroll
its still around
feral perch
The set of thirteen were smaller in diameter, right?
feral perch
Oh okay.
sudden shuttle
delta halo has flood on it still right? or did they die or something
versed helm
they do still i believe
feral perch
They died afaik.
vague scroll
we don't know
sudden shuttle
hm
feral perch
Swords of Sanghelios glassed it to oblivion...
vague scroll
supposedly UNSC and SOS forces quarantined it
obsidian thistle
Actually thats an anomally
versed helm
I feel like something is lost in having the Forerunners or direct witnesses to the Forerunners come out into the current setting and explain their actions, what they were like, what their motivations were. I think the Forerunners, like any sci-fi "precursor" race, should be one of those things where archaeologists and scientists are desperately trying to figure out the mysteries of the things they left behind.
The more you show the man behind the curtain, the less his wizardry excites and mystifies the audience.
Spark was intriguing because he treated John like John knew pretty much everything he did. He was always like "oh, you need a Level 10 combat skin, your current one is only Level 3, isn't that kind of odd? You should upgrade"
and everyone was like "WHAT IS A LEVEL 10 COMBAT SKIN LIKE? WHOA WHAT"
Implications, intrigue, mystery.
vague scroll
I mean, even then, contemporary Forerunners were wowed by their own predecessors amongst other Forerunner civilizations since their species went through several of their own dark ages
sudden shuttle
would you rather have the forerunners remain a mystery and never get information on them or know more about them
vague scroll
they lost the technology and know how that helped them defeat the Precursors in the first place
sudden shuttle
the master chief is related to the iso-didact in some way
feral perch
Pidge, you're not alone in feeling that way. There are plenty of others who would rather have a shroud of mystery around the Forerunners.
sudden shuttle
like in hce and h3
versed helm
Monk, I'd rather the Forerunners be largely mysterious in the way that real-life dead societies are. It's much more interesting that their only survivors are broken machines.
vague scroll
geas @sudden shuttle
sudden shuttle
ok
it's make sense to learn more about the forerunners
it's like discovering anicent egypt
feral perch
I've felt that way from time to time, but I also like the characters we were introduced to, and knowing some of their struggle.
sudden shuttle
and not trying to figure out more about it
versed helm
I'm fine with learning about them but it shouldn't be a full-on information buffet.
It'd be like if there was a real-life ancient Egyptian standing outside the Pyramids explaining every single weird little mystery that has kept people up at night.
Like, cool, now we know, but that's super underwhelming and not as cool as what any of us imagined
feral perch
We don't know everything about them. There are still several mysteries.
versed helm
I don't want to know more!
The stuff they've provided about them has killed my interest!
sudden shuttle
then don't worry about the forerunners then?
versed helm
Kiiiinda hard to do when they're the crux of the setting
feral perch
Well, you can look at it that way.
Would you say they were the crux of the setting of Halo: Reach?
Or the Covenant War?
sudden shuttle
forerunners will always remain mysterious to me
and good
idc that 343 gives us more information about them
it's interesting receiving information about them
vague scroll
that said, the reason the Forerunners created the Composer was an experiment to bridge the organic/artificial life divide.
The Humans getting devolved was a matter that the humans started attacking Forerunner worlds and glassing them to prevent Flood infestations from popping up, starting the Human-Forerunner War which the Humans lost. The Forerunners devolved them, putting them back on Earth - then the Flood returns and the Forerunners begin losing so they went to investigate the geas/memories of old Humans in hopes of finding a supposed cure that never actually existed.
The Composer was used by the Didact after being tortured by the Gravemind and decided after going insane that Humanity was responsible for the Forerunners losing against the Flood so he responded by using the Composer to turn them into automatons along with the rest of his own soldiers after they swore allegiance to him by any means.
sudden shuttle
and why they did that and stuff
versed helm
yes, they are absolutely the crux of the Covenant war. The Sangheili and the San'Shyuum went to war over Forerunner mysteries and whether or not to explore them.
The Lekgolo war was explicitly about the Lekgolo eating those relics. The Human-Covenant war was a direct result of a mostly-broken Monitor speaking up and saying "YOU ARE SO DUMB, THESE ARE RECLIAMER." Other races had huge motivations to try to work out this basically-unknowable tech and what it was made for.
But despite all of that, it was about their relics, their leftovers. It wasn't about Forerunner individuals or their aspirations or their prejudices.
The Forerunner were an extinct race that made the Halos and put a bunch of species on a Noah's Ark allegory to save them from the Flood. That's all they really needed to be; they were all dead and could stay that way.
stable schooner
You know this just made realize why I forget Precursors Actually exist in lore sometimes
versed helm
It cheapens their sacrifice and the power of the Array to have them show up right after the Human-Covenant war ended.
feral perch
I disagree highly.
sudden shuttle
the Didact was suppose to be meditating for 100,000 years due to the logic plague that the gravemind casted on him, like M32, however, his cryptum was turned off in some way and he has been seating in there for so long, that's why he wanted to kill humanity in halo 4
vague scroll
Others would argue that getting understand the Forerunners meant they became relatable and more understandable because they were fleshed out.
The Forerunner Trilogy, despite how its divided the series, has actually brought a lot of new and interesting and downright terrifying concepts to the Halo series that I think we are better for having.
sudden shuttle
this is a good reason to add information to the forerunners
vague scroll
Neural Physics is probably one of the coolest and scariest concepts I've seen in science fiction
versed helm
I don't think the Didact should've been brought back at -all-
feral perch
neural physics. iconic
sudden shuttle
why would the didact just instantly attack us and suddenly hate humanity?
why? who do you think should have replaced him?
vague scroll
I already explained that...
versed helm
I think he should've been a faceless character from the terminals in Halo 3, a long-dead figure
feral perch
There are two Didacts now too!
vague scroll
he hated humanity for killing trillions of people, Forerunners and their client species by burning their worlds
versed helm
I don't think the Didact should've come into play in Halo 4, I think a threat should've come from elsewhere other than "oop, can't use the Covenant for this game, so we need to use... something else from the setting... Oh, I know! Forerunners!"
feral perch
One is -composed?- and the other is probably dead.
vague scroll
... is killing trillions of his people not a good enough reason?
feral perch
Like, who's to say that a new threat wouldn't have been labeled as "the Covenant but not?"
versed helm
I am telling you that I think the Forerunners should be a passive force within the 2500s era of the setting. They should not be the dominating force of the narrative because it ruins any mystery of their motives or the way they behave.
It's like a monster movie. You don't show the whole monster.
Unless it's the climax and something truly exciting is happen, and you get to see a glimpse, and that's it.
feral perch
Well, they aren't now. Now it's Cortana and the Created.
sudden shuttle
imagine seeing only a leg of a monster
vague scroll
well good news is that they're not the defining force anymore, its a naked hologram chick
sudden shuttle
well not anymore
feral perch
.. She's got a suit of Forerunner armor
sudden shuttle
he has armor for some reason
vague scroll
@sudden shuttle is killing trillions not an acceptable explanation?
versed helm
And we've already covered how I feel about the way her rampancy is depicted
sudden shuttle
she
feral perch
and she wasn't naked before either
vague scroll
yeah she's in armor, but that takes away from the joke.
sudden shuttle
he also hated humans more i think from the gravemind
feral perch
just call her shodan with blewbs
vague scroll
the Gravemind tortured him to the point that he convinced him that the Humans were responsible for his pain
versed helm
I also think that adding near-immortal characters, other than the Gravemind, hurts any setting
sudden shuttle
how so
versed helm
The Gravemind is different because it's an Eldritch horror
vague scroll
I think I've answered your question Monk, unless there's something I've missed?
sudden shuttle
idk
versed helm
Because adding characters with living memories of the things that were exciting because they were unknown is detrimental to a story?
Especially if the only thing they do with those memories is get real mad and try to kill stuff?
vague scroll
Wasn't the addition of a Prothean soldier in Mass Effect 3 generally well recieved?
versed helm
I didn't play Mass Effect 3 but everyone I knew who liked Mass Effect didn't care for 3 very much
I also would say that Mass Effect's overall story is better suited to that kind of thing
vague scroll
it probably is ¯_(ツ)_/¯
feral perch
I don't see why it should be detrimental to the story. I like it a lot, they just needed to make his backstory more accessible for people who don't read the books.
versed helm
StoneWall, you can disagree with me all you like, but nothing you're saying is convincing me this doesn't just muddy the waters of canon for new or returning fans
vague scroll
either way, I agree the Didact in Halo 4 wasn't the best baddie since he didn't get much screen time or that his motivation wasn't really well explained beyond a wall of exposition that most people completely misunderstood
sudden shuttle
your not really convincing anyone pidge
vague scroll
but fundamentally I don't see an issue with the idea of "The Forerunners have returned."
versed helm
It's not even that it's necessarily a guaranteed bad idea to add these things into the setting.
The problem is that when you tell these things to uninformed people, their reaction should be "OHHHH, so that's why it's that way!" or "Oh, that makes sense"
Not "Wait, what???"
sudden shuttle
i don't see the difference
versed helm
I just think that a large, lore-filled story should be relatively internally consistent and that the motivations of the characters should make sense
That is not a tall order
vague scroll
that's fair, but tbf, I haven't read the Forerunner Trilogy either but when put into the sum of its parts, I've been able to actually pick it up and understand the ins and outs when explained, I just don't think this is the right place to ask since this is a public forum where every one is trying to talk and explaining things get muddled between other topic items ¯_(ツ)_/¯
humble yacht
I think forerunners are fine as enemies as they’ve been previously presented as fallible
feral perch
Why though? This is lore from a completely different era that should have room to be uh, esoteric and strange? I guess.
sudden shuttle
not to mention the killing of the precursors
versed helm
StoneWall, I think there's room for esoteric and strange up until the point that it flies in the face of common sense, logic or reasonable suspension of disbelief
vague scroll
asking for lore consistency when you have about over a dozen different writers over 2 decades writing for a franchise with hundreds of pieces of media is a fool's gambit
feral perch
Where does it do that?
vague scroll
40k, Star Wars, and Star Trek all suffer from similar growing pains.
feral perch
Halo actually has really good lore consistency.
Compared to most other long-running franchises.
versed helm
Is it always great? No, absolutely not, but that doesn't mean it strays so far beyond the pale that it feels like a different series
That's my issue with this. None of this feels like the universe I became obsessed with.
There is a bizarre tonal shift that doesn't really work with the way that the universe felt previously.
feral perch
... It took place a really long time ago in-universe. Why should it feel the same?
vague scroll
you grew up in a time where Halo was military sci fi, and really, only military sci fi - the hints of mystery were just icing on the cake.
versed helm
StoneWall, that's .... completely missing the point
It took place a really long time ago in-universe and it should've been left there, but bringing the Didact and retconning all this other stuff to be today's problem forces that same tonal shift onto the current universe
feral perch
I see. But why does it have to be the same after the end of the Covenant War? That was that, time for something new. New-ish.
versed helm
Halo went from being somewhat grounded to being this weird science-fantasy epic about revived demigods and demons fighting humanity for ill-defined motivations
feral perch
I don't see what's ill-defined if you look at all the lore.
vague scroll
we're arguing about a series at a point in its narrative where it was a decade old, now its two decades old - things do change.
But talking about pseudo-fantasy, its an apt comparison, but a poorly informed one.
versed helm
In a universe where the Covenant just kind of showed up on Humanity's doorstep and declared a holy war, there is no reason they had to go grave-digging to find a new antagonist when they could've just as easily had the conflict come from within, -like Cortana-
feral perch
I for one will always think the coolest moment in Halo 4 was the Didact's revival. I really liked that.
versed helm
the Didact being revived is arguably more out of left field than the Master Chief's armor being different at the beginning of Halo 4
vague scroll
the thing is that a good part of the narrative behind the Forerunner plot of Halo 4 is what you're looking for Pidge
vague scroll
particularly the story of the Didact's Hand, Jul 'Mdama
humble yacht
I thought he jumped onto a lich
vague scroll
he did
Jul 'Mdama is a product of that narrative regarding Sangheili civil war and the post-Covenant War politics and factionalism that you were bringing up earlier
feral perch
There's also the Servants of the Abiding Truth, the Banished, the Keepers of the One Freedom... Lots of post-war political factions vying for supremacy.
vague scroll
something of a false prophet in his own right going from a tragic origin story in Kilo-5 to a messiah like figure seeking out his living god by jumping from planet to planet looking for ancient ruins and clues to where the tomb is
its shame 343i offed him to make room for Cortana's narrative at the beginning of Halo 5 but I digress, he was a well-developed character
feral perch
Not to mention human groups like Sapien Sunrise, and the very mysterious San'Shyuum flotilla.
vague scroll
a lot of the plot points adopted in Halo 4 Spartan Ops get picked up then dropped halfway into Escalation and then totally sidelined in Halo 5
versed helm
You have to invent so many events to make it make sense within the setting. What sounds more plausible?
- "Oh, the Didact got put in a weird tomb on Earth where the Forerunners just keep all their stuff, I guess. Also the Forerunners can digitize minds. Also not all the Forerunners died during the Halo firing, which explicitly was made to kill all life in its radius. Also the Didact has an army of post-human digital minds in robot suits."
Or:
- "The remains of the Forward Unto Dawn have drifted for 40 years and made it into the fringe of the new UNSC/Covenant Space Protectorate. When they plug the computer in, Super Rogue Cortana is released from her relative containment and ends up starting a war eventually. The Master Chief gets defrosted and has to deal with his crazy data wife and it forces him to face his humanity as he deals with his attachment to her and the way he's a relic of a different era now."
The Didact could've been skipped and Cortana could've just hacked a bunch of newer ships and been a huge threat all the same.
vague scroll
I think I can sum this up quite nicely though I think it wouldn't be a satisfactory answer - Halo has changed, there's still a lot in it/about it that remains that you loved, but there's also a lot of parts that have changed completely. The only real way for you to decide fairly is to jump in and try yourself.
Rather than let us try our best to explain it with our biased and limited understanding of the narrative universe.
feral perch
The Didact wasn't put in a tomb on Earth. He was a in a Cryptum, inside the Shield World Requiem.
vague scroll
We're not equipped to tell you the water's warm and comfortable and to hop on in, you're only going to find out if you take a risk and do it for yourself. Because we don't know particularly what will or won't work. And on the other hand, we're also biased by items you don't understand until you've tried it for yourself.
So, all I can ask you is to try it out and keep an open mind.
feral perch
The Forerunners took shelter on the Ark, which was a refuge, and it was established as such in Halo 3.
That's how some of them survived the firing, and that's how all life in the galaxy survived and was reseeded back into the galaxy after the firing. Otherwise, why do you think humans and Covenant are around?
vague scroll
Stone, I don't think we can do a good job of explaining things to Pidge. I don't think we know or have the best way of explaining this since we're jumping over one another to try and be disjointed in explaining certain aspects.
If you two want to continue, go for it, but I'll step out and let you guys figure it out for yourselves.
versed helm
Yes, yes, Stone, I have seen Halo Legends
I'm also sitting here reading the wiki on concepts you guys are introducing me to and trying to figure out how they jibe with what you're saying
feral perch
Okay.
vague scroll
that's what I'm concerned with, that we aren't explaining it well enough
so, I'll leave you guys to it then
feral perch
Oh well. I'm out too.
stable schooner
Looks at that fantasy lore consistency Sci fi never manages to keep. Halo Legends is underrated. Be Human is powerful.
versed helm
Well, on my end, I'm just some dumb girl who is getting sweaty with stress because I feel like I have a mob of people shouting at me because I'm not able to understand all the concepts and arguments they're saying at once
feral perch
just read Halopedia and watch lore videos if you're still interested.
humble yacht
At the end of H3 you see Chief drifting towards a forerunner planet
versed helm
I have been! That's why I'm informed enough to have any opinions whatsoever on the post-Reach era
It's also why I'm upset and overwhelmed, because the wiki has a casual way of throwing out facts about established characters that contradicts my memories and perceptions of these characters
versed helm
I'm just sort of wondering if it's even worth trying to invest in nu-Halo in this way
humble yacht
I get having our own idea of what characters should be but at the same time, it’s not our work
As with any fiction, we just consume it
versed helm
I fell out of the community when I was a dumb high schooler because my Xbox Live ran out during very early Reach days and I've been so busy putting my life back together that I haven't had time for Halo fandom in my life for about a decade
And it seems like it moved on to a place that isn't as appealing anymore so maybe I should just leave it be
feral perch
Aye, Chimera, there's a sentiment I can agree with.
versed helm
Anime fans are totally chill with selectively consuming media
Maybe I'll do the same x_x;
vague scroll
Alright, if I can rephrase it, I don't think the #lore-and-universe is the best place to reintroduce an old Halo veteran to the series.
like, this place is too big and noisy for it
versed helm
"Watch Naruto, but only up to the Chuunin exams, because everything after that is upsetting"
And yeah, I'd probably have an easier time if I wasn't on the defensive against 4-5 people saying things at me
vague scroll
yeah that's definitely a good comparison having gone through that with Naruto
like, that matches up my experience with Naruto in general, dropped the series for a few years after the Chunin Exams and was completely lost to the point I was directed to the manga and that was it. Then I came back and watched some of the Shinobi War arc when the manga finally got completed.
versed helm
I like how all this happened because I said "The Keyes loop wasn't as impressive as it's made out to be"
vague scroll
well, this conversation isn't a new one we've had in here, there's been at least a few times where old fans come back and have a hard time fitting in which I completely understand, or fans that only played the games and have trouble figuring out how the books and other media fit together as well
while I don't want to be overly harsh and I agree with the concept that Halo has done a better job of maintaining internal consistency across its universe, I can also admit its not the best - there's a lot of band aids and duct tape solutions that were put into to try and plug plot holes and retcons that didn't make much sense in hindsight.
feral perch
I read The Fall of Reach, The Flood, and possibly First Strike before playing any of the games. From that perspective, it's difficult sometimes to explain things to people who enjoy Halo in a different way.
vague scroll
Halo does better than most but the bar for measure isn't that high to begin with either. The series is hard to pick up if you already have a strong imprint on your mind of what it is.
I think that's an advantage I had with coming in on the game that began the transition from Bungie to 343i.
feral perch
Not saying Pidge is like that, but moreso for people who haven't dived in to the novels and whatnot.
vague scroll
One of the earliest concerns that came up in the Halo community immediately was "why is Chief suddenly talking a lot?" when Halo 4 came out.
feral perch
oh goodness
versed helm
Here's the Halo media I've consumed:
BOOKS: Fall of Reach, The Flood(awful), First Strike, Ghosts of Onyx, Contact Harvest, Cole Protocol, Evolutions(that's the short story anthology, right?), Halo Graphic Novel, Halo Reach Halsey's notebook thing
ANIMATION AND MOVIES: Legends, Forward unto Dawn(just okay), Fall of Reach animatic movie(awful)
Games: Halo CE, Halo 2, Halo 3, Reach, Wars, and I rented ODST once
I was -hooked in- on the community in 2004, I followed /[ participated in ilovebees, I had a serious adoration for the series
vague scroll
Yeah, you've got a pretty good library there, though most of it is definitely closer to the Bungie era depictions. And yeah, Evolutions was the anthology series.
versed helm
It's just hard to come back and find very little of what Halo was to me in its current iteration. The Infinite trailer looks good, but I'm not holding my breath due to confidential things my 343 employee friend has told me in person x_x;
I hope it's good.
vague scroll
iluvbees is actually one of those parts of the series that has its lore most often tested, even though a lot of us would like to see it have relevance again.
feral perch
There are plenty of novels out now that you would probably enjoy.
vague scroll
@versed helm if it might be able to help, might I recommend you start with Denning's recent Halo novels focusing on the SPARTAN-IIs, Silent Storm and Oblivion?
vague scroll
Since they're most likely the closest to what you remember of the series.
versed helm
Just as long as you don't make me read anything by Karen Traviss
I remember going to a bookstore and seeing a new Halo book, just published, getting excited, then seeing the author and putting it down :x
vague scroll
that's fine, Kilo-5 was divisive even back when they came out
feral perch
Unfortunately Karen Traviss' Kilo-5 trilogy is pretty important to understanding Halo after Halo 3.
feral perch
Don't like Gears of War or Republic Commando?
humble yacht
XD
versed helm
I actually don't like Gears of War, no
I still think it was foolish of those in charge to give her that job. I have never known of another sci-fi author that has made such contentious media.
vague scroll
Kilo-5 was good but I understand if people didn't like Traviss, then its fine to not force them to read it. That said, its an unfortunate truth that Kilo-5 establishes the baseline for a lot of what the series is today.
versed helm
I put it down because I started getting war flashbacks to all the angry nerds on forums complaining about her Star Wars work and decided I didn't need any of that in my life.
vague scroll
I'm not going to recommend it to you if you feel like its not your cup of tea.
feral perch
A lot of us don't like how she did Halsey in it. But otherwise, there's a lot of really good characters. Especially the Huragok and Jul 'Mdama.
vague scroll
It's why I pointed to Silent Storm and Oblivion since those have generally been considered closer to Nylund's style.
sudden shuttle
halo odst 2
versed helm
I don't have an opinion of her as a person. I just don't want to try to deal with the way she changes settings dramatically
I'm sorry, I keep seeing "Juul MDMA" when you mention that character
sudden shuttle
what.
feral perch
okay...?
versed helm
my brain is poisoned
vague scroll
oof
sudden shuttle
juuls were made in 2015
vague scroll
I'll just refer to him as Hand then
versed helm
You don't have to stop calling him that, just know i'm gonna be trying not to laugh when I read it
feral perch
Jul is a discount Saruman, Tide
vague scroll
There's been enough Hand jokes about his title as it is
sudden shuttle
jul 'mdama was introduced in 2012
vague scroll
oh, I got you, he's a laughing stock in the community as it is
sudden shuttle
hm
feral perch
Osman is a good character until she becomes CINCONI imo
vague scroll
his depiction isn't the greatest in the series, could have been handled better but that was because he was passed between 4 different writers over the last five-six years
versed helm
I think we can all agree that Catherine Halsey is a war criminal and terrible person
feral perch
Yes and no.
versed helm
And one of the primary causes of humanity's pain and struggle in her lifetime
feral perch
Uh, definitely no.
Without her, there's no Spartans, and no Master Chief in particular.
versed helm
The only Heroic Scientist who has caused more fictional suffering is Dr. Thomas Light from Mega Man
vague scroll
can't tell if you're memeing or not, nevermind, you are
versed helm
And no Cortana
vague scroll
and i'm confused again...
feral perch
maybe I'm missing a reference here
versed helm
I'm meming
versed helm
Because Halsey is a child-kidnapping murderer who also had the universe's most dangerous AI flash-cloned from her brain
feral perch
Do you dislike Halsey or not? For real
versed helm
I like her as a person but some of her actions are gross
vague scroll
and much of the games follow that trend to, Halo 4 and 5 do allude to her being something of a divisive person
versed helm
Her depiction personality-wise is nice
sudden shuttle
she doesn't really like any other spartans
vague scroll
though she was kind of hard headed in Reach too
sudden shuttle
only john and blue team
versed helm
I always gravitate to smart ladies in fiction
feral perch
It sounds like you might have little issue with Kilo-5 then.
versed helm
Honestly, I'd put it this way
Halsey's depiction is consistent with some markers for sociopathy
vague scroll
I can see that
versed helm
And she just happens to be one of the more productive and helpful sociopaths within ONI
But ONI, like the real-life institiutions it's based on, is full of horrible people doing morally ambiguous or outright terrible things in the name of the greater good
So it's a good depiction of a three-letter-agency in a fictional setting
But also most of them should be in jail
gilded mason
Or at least, their idea of greater good.
sudden shuttle
The Spartan program is like the Spartan program in real life.
feral perch
I wouldn’t say horrible people as a generalization
versed helm
Yes, yes, we've all read about Thermopylae