But it’s different than how a human or other animal does
#lore-and-universe
stoic hamlet
copper wigeon
Yeah but the Huragok haven't been stated to eat
warm ridge
All it's stated is that they need to breath, but they can easily survive in Methane rich environments, and Oxygen rich environments. They can probably even survive in Carbon rich environments to even.
The only environment Engineers can't survive in are Vaccums.
stoic hamlet
I’m pretty sure I remember them needing to eat in one of the Kilo-5 books, no?
humble yacht
Then they do have some sort of metabolism
They require something
They can’t subsist on nothing
warm ridge
as far as we know they don't need to eat at all.
humble yacht
Maybe “eating” is the wrong word for it
warm ridge
Like I already said, they repair themselves to when something is wrong. They can bring dead Huragok back from the dead as well with just 10% of the og biomass present.
copper wigeon
Wait lmao they have an anaerobic metabolism
feral perch
They eat something sweet, sugar-like
I think it was in Kilo-5
Probably in The Thursday War
warm ridge
@feral perch Would love to see a source on that, as it's not shown anywhere on Halopedia or any lore termed thing at all.
warm ridge
again, book page, exact paragraph, etc.
feral perch
I no longer own any of the Kilo-5 trilogy, so I can't source it directly.
warm ridge
Not going to read the entire book just to find something that probably isn't true lol.
feral perch
But if someone who does wants to wade through- It is true.
stoic hamlet
I only have an Ebook, but I’ll take a look
I know the scene
Just gotta find the chapter
feral perch
Great.
stoic hamlet
I think it was Glasslands
feral perch
Okay.
stoic hamlet
But it might have been Thursday War
humble yacht
Do ebooks have a ctrl+F function?
warm ridge
they do.
stoic hamlet
it’s when they’re first getting the huragok onto the Stanley
warm ridge
ebooks are basically pdf documents.
" The abilities of the Huragok are not limited to their skills to fix things; they are also able to absorb data from a computer or an AI, and combine it with their own biological "data". One such incident occurred when one Huragok combined its knowledge with the "dumb" AI of New Mombasa, the Superintendent. During a mission to recover a living Huragok, Captain Veronica Dare described the species as "biological supercomputers". (this part is from Bestiarum) However, the actual amount of information that Huragok can extract is limited, and would require a more advanced artificial intelligence to assist in truly understanding the work of a Forerunner construct."
fair hazel
what is life?
warm ridge
well this is discussing lore, nothing heated or anything (I hope)
fair hazel
I know but
What is life?
Some people might consider AIs alive, others don't. some people might consider huragok living beings, others not
copper wigeon
I consider them living beings, but not exactly comparable to other species, they are alive, and they are sapient, but still artificial.
Until I know what they eat I can't say they are fully ALIVE alive
fair hazel
they can eat cake
stable schooner
So just to be sure Smart AI can’t reproduce in any way right?
humble yacht
Not that we know of
stable schooner
That I’d say myself Engineers are alive and Ai are not but their obviously Sentient and getting closer to that Alive status
humble yacht
In the case of halo I think there is a distinction between being “alive” and being “sentient”
I think you can be both or either or
In the case of Cortana and her questioning of what it means to human, I think it’s more about how an AI experiences the world and its ability to feel that they were going into
I doubt Cortana was upset about not being able to eat a burger
copper wigeon
AI are technically sapient right?
Smart AI at least,
so they are Sapient but not alive?
last anchor
Sapient, yes
Since they are technically human brains turned digital
Its honestly a very crude form of composition
last anchor
Hell, even Halsey acknowlages it in Halo 4, discussing the Composer.
"Its like a human AI matrix"
warm ridge
The Composer actually converts the very mind, brain, body, memories, and more. Far beyond our understanding entirely. Doctor Halsey simply made a comment on it, but in reality it's far more then that.
https://www.halopedia.org/Promethean
The Composer was basically meant to give the Forerunners "new, functional bodies", and maybe even an actual cure for the Flood (not a cure in the traditional sense of course), but every test they did do was soured/failed, with every test eventually leading to the essences death shortly after, forcing the test to be restarted over and over again, having them experience immense pain.
In fact, the Composer's forge still has the stored digital essences of Chakas, Riser, and practically every Human being that was ever composed. There current bodies were also stored, allowing anyone with enough knowledge to actually reconstruct the body itself (possibly Engineers?) These can be brought back to biological forms, but the Forerunners never figured it out due to when they were attempting this, the Flood was taking over. I'm actually curious if maybe the current Humans could finish the tech if given the chance.
humble yacht
where does it say that the Composer's Forge still contains Chakas?
carmine sleet
This would be the first I heard of it containing him
But as far as I know, he hasn't got a copy of himself stored there
humble yacht
If that were true, that would suggest that Spark is not actually Chakas but rather a copy
carmine sleet
Which would be a weird thing to add since it doesn't really make much sense to do
warm ridge
Spark is a copy.
actually
Spark is more of a "imprint"
not a full on copy of Chakas himself.
humble yacht
when I say "copy"
I mean that the "original Chakas file" is still in the Forge and capable of generating further Chakas's if so desired
But what's been revealed about Spark is that his Chakas "imprint" or whatever you call it is the original essence that was generated from the Composing of the being known as Chakas
warm ridge
Minds scanned by the Composer could be processed in a variety of ways. The ancient human personalities extracted and stored by the Librarian at Charum Hakkor retained their essences in virtually unchanged form, preserving the victims' identities and even the records of their physical bodies, although the latter could not be reconstituted to biological form.[14] These stored personalities could also be implanted into the genetic code of living beings, with said personalities achieving self-awareness and retaining their original identity within their new hosts; examples of this are the ancestral memory imprints of Chakas and Riser. The Composer could also be used to remove these imprinted personalities, although this did grave physical and mental damage to the individual carrying the imprint.
any and every Forerunner, Human, or whatever that was composed by the Composer all have there essences copied and stored in where ever the Composers actual data base is (it's suggested it's the Composers Forge).
humble yacht
I've read the halopedia entry
it suggests transferring of imprints and essences but not copying
warm ridge
where do you see transferring?
humble yacht
using the composer to remove the "old spirit" imprint in Chakas
Using it to compose Chakas and transfer him into a Monitor shell
there's only ever been one instance of chakas at a time, whether in biological form or mechanical
it's not like there was another instance of Chakas running around while he was guilty spark
Chakas and Riser each had a unique imprint
warm ridge
Obviously there isn't going to be multiple copies of himself roaming around, the Forerunners only composed Chakas near the end of the entire war, right before the rings fired and basically erased/supressed his mind before being assigned to Installation 04.
In fact the Librarian and other Forerunners at the time decided to place multiple imprints onto Spark/Chakas himself, including the Lord of Admirals apparently.
humble yacht
as far as we know, Forthencho was only imprinted onto Chakas, not multiple people, suggesting a 1:1 ratio
feral perch
Spark counts as a personality
warm ridge
"Some time later, Chakas awakened to find himself in a life-support system which sustained his mortally wounded body, accompanied by the IsoDidact. The Didact explained that Chakas' body would not recover from the trauma inflicted by Mendicant Bias' extraction of his imprint, but that his mind would be salvaged and converted into a monitor. Forthencho and numerous other ancient human essences, as well as records of the Librarian's various experiments, would also be stored within this construct. "
feral perch
So there were three individual personalities inside the Monitor
humble yacht
yeah but nowhere does it suggest they were copies
it was the imprint of Forthencho, not a imprint
warm ridge
The Libarian is also one of these personality imprints btw, in fact there's multiple of her from what we know.
feral perch
That does seem to be the case. I wonder if she’s an exception or not
humble yacht
The Librarian did not use the composer to make her imprints
warm ridge
said Librarian imprint even makes a suggestive comment that Spark couldn't "contain" the Lord of Admirals.
humble yacht
she used a different technology
warm ridge
"When Spark finally met with a personality imprint of the Librarian below Mount Kilimanjaro, he used the image of Chakas and was referred to as such by the Librarian. The Librarian helped Spark to remember his struggles containing the essence of Forthencho, Lord of Admirals and made him let his old friends go as they were at peace. I"
humble yacht
and each of her imprints was not representative of the whole of her personage
unlike the case with Composed essences
warm ridge
suggesting it was a copy.
humble yacht
yes, the Librarian imprint was one of many
but that quote doesn't suggest the same about the imprints within Chakas
warm ridge
The Gravemind was also able to make copies of said essences btw.
Suggesting yes, they're basically copies.
"After the Flood arrived in the Sol system, the Gravemind sent humans haphazardly imprinted with the essences of Forthencho, Lord of Admirals and three of his warriors, to deliver a final mockery to the Librarian. "
while all at the same time Chakas/343 was also imprinted with Forthencho, so.
humble yacht
ok so that's evidence in support of your theory
I find it silly and wish it wasn't so. A 1:1 ratio is more compelling than the ability to make copies of a single essence
warm ridge
"Although the Librarian herself perished on Earth, she left behind a number of essences, uploaded personality imprints in many ways indistinguishable from her original self. These constructs would later interact with by a number of individuals and continue to facilitate the Librarian's plan over 100,000 years after her physical death."
btw, the Iso-Didact is technically an imprint of the Ur-Didact as well. Just, different in numerous ways.
humble yacht
it's one thing when the source is still around and can be used to make multiple "lesser" copies that are similar but different to the original
warm ridge
"During his subsequent travels with Bornstellar, the Didact performed a brevet mutation on him to allow him access to the Domain. Shortly before, the Didact transferred all of his memories and knowledge to Bornstellar, essentially merging his personality with the young Forerunner. The Didact was later abandoned in a Flood-infested system.[3] However, Bornstellar, possessing the Didact's imprint, had become a Didact as well. "
humble yacht
but when the original is turned into an essence and represents the main iteration of that character, making copies cheapens them. How can there be any weight to their loss if there could be another version of themselves somewhere out there that is essentially the same as their original?
warm ridge
Technically speaking we only know of one Chakas imprint, and the experiences this Chakas imprint has is limited to him and himself alone. Any new "chakas imprint" that is created will not have the same experiences being Spark, or anyone else at all. It'd be as if you brought him back when his physical body was dying.
The same also goes for all the other imprints/digital essences stored.
humble yacht
sure but there is still the potential for another Chakas to exist
potentially, infinite numbers of Chakas
warm ridge
as far as we know, only one Chakas does exist, and only one was ever made along with copies of multiple other beings being stored into the 343 Gulity Spark shell, that Chakas either combined with his current self/Spark, or deleted.
humble yacht
with the Librarian, her true self is dead and there is a limited number of lesser imprints out there. I can accept that
warm ridge
tbh I see the multiple different imprints of the Librarian similar to the way smart AI's can create copies of themselves with limited function/information.
humble yacht
but if Chakas original self is an essence stored somewhere, and Spark is merely a copy of that essence that has gone through it's own unique journey, then that means any number of Chakas could be produced to also go through their own journeys
warm ridge
It's just the way the Librarian did it is highly unknown, but it does suggest each imprint can indeed be combined to form a single one.
humble yacht
my point about the Librarian is that she isn't making any more imprints of herself, because she's dead
whatever imprints are left, that's it. And they are impermanent and can be gotten rid of or sent to the absolute record
warm ridge
We don't exactly know how the Librarian created her imprints, but the point I'm making is more can likely be created as well if it's some sort of stored digital essence somewhere.
humble yacht
i hate that idea
warm ridge
That's the entire idea behind the Composer, store a ton of digital essences to essentially become immortal while going from body to body.
humble yacht
yes but it was one essence becoming immortal
through the process of becoming digital
not becoming immortal by making several versions of itself
warm ridge
actually it was a copy of said essence, the Forerunners did indeed do test on a few essences which failed, but they could keep bringing them back as many times as they wanted.
humble yacht
and making a new one whenever necessary or desired
warm ridge
The Didact even did this to himself with multiple different variations of himself in order to become immune to the Flood, as far as forcing the experiments on his organic body.
humble yacht
the original purpose of the Composer was to digitize a dying forerunner so it could be sent to the Domain in entirety
that purpose was corrupted due to the war with the Flood, so I don't see that sort of use as nullifying the impermanence of a character
warm ridge
"The plan was to save those afflicted by the Flood by scanning their patterns and removing any traces of the Flood from the digital essence, which would then be imprinted on a new, artificially constructed biological body devoid of Flood infection. However, the process was highly flawed. In addition to being extremely painful to the individuals undergoing the process, all attempts to restore the essences to biological form failed as the artificial bodies would quickly decay and inevitably die."
humble yacht
that quote doesn't suggest they tested the same essence multiple times
warm ridge
It's never stated the essences are deleted/destroyed, only the artificial bodies.
Because of this, they abandoned it to focus on other efforts in order to effectively combat the Flood aka "buy some time"
remember: "1,000 plans tried and failed"
humble yacht
well that's still ok then because they could still have been running the same essence through multiple tests and failures
rather than copying the essence each time they wanted to run a test
the former is much more horrifying and compelling to think about
a single essence going through all that pain hundreds to thousands of times
warm ridge
I think what your missing is it's bridging the gap between organic, and digital data.
Digital immediately means it can be copied and placed onto as many test as once.
humble yacht
i'm not missing that, i simply don't like that idea
warm ridge
Engineers use a similar method of "preserving there mind, memories, etc" by basically copying there entire brain to be placed onto a new Engineer so, it's not entirely out of the idea here.
humble yacht
i see a composed essence as essentially the soul of a being, stored on a computer
you don't just copy the soul
copying memories and such, fine, whatever, go for it
but there needs to be a fundamental aspect of a character that is unique and impermanent
that can't be copied
fair hazel
i never read the stuff as essences are copied and can e made many etc
humble yacht
otherwise, there's no reason to feel bad if the character dies
warm ridge
read up on Durances to.
Durances didn't exactly copy the entire being, but it copied all memories, personality traits, mental patterns and so on from the time of death.
versed helm
I think there may be a functional difference between a Forerunner post-mortem imprint and a composed essence, even though both are often stored within durances.
warm ridge
The Composer is even described as a translating device, translating as in it copied your mental content into machine/digital data. You yourself, your original organic body, soul, or whatever you want to call it, is dead/no longer existing in this world if that's what your talking about.
Your neural pathways, mind, memories, personality, the way your body looked, and so on can actually be recreated given the right circumstances that the Forerunners never seemed to achieve beyond copying/placing certain imprints onto already functioning human/forerunner beings, or even making them into a form of AI.
versed helm
It is a little hard to speak with absolute certainty on this subject given its somewhat philosophical nature, of that I think we can all agree.
And there's some serious tactical requestions regarding the usage of the Composer as a weapon of war as well, if you want to look at things from my perspective. Fundamentally, to be strategically viable it must kinda be re-using something tangible to have any worth at all, otherwise it's a really silly idea.
warm ridge
depends on which parts you deem philosophical. The whole soul aspect yea, I can agree on that as there's really no definitive confirmations of a "soul" existing in the Halo universe.
versed helm
Right, exactly.
warm ridge
but the other parts such as your entire mind, body, and memories being stored into a digital essence are all true. The problems the Forerunners had was bringing said digital essence back into a organic form.
versed helm
Absolutely.
last anchor
And of course using it to make weapons is viable.
I mean, all these plante destroying weapons are nice but the Composor removes PEOPLE, meaning you get all of their stuff.
So its superior to the Death Star or whatever in terms of superweapon use
warm ridge
Death Star is capable of destroying planets, the Composer doesn't "destroy planets".
btw where are you getting death star from
humble yacht
So when forthencho was originally composed, he was split into several splinters that were each tested for the “cure” that the forerunners thought humans had
warm ridge
I guess you could more accurately describe interrogated, with his memories also being explored and more.
humble yacht
So that explains how librarian could put one in chakas and how the gravemind could eventually get its hands on another
warm ridge
He of course never revealed it, ever until a Precursor revealed it to them what actually happened.
versed helm
I'm still personally a little unclear as to why the composer is useful when it comes to the process of creating promethean soldiers.
Like... you use it to create... programming for the machine bodies that already exist?
But why not just... generate programming.
last anchor
Cause a Knight has some semblance of intelligence.
It can think and fight better than a pure AI
Same as how a Smart AI is more adaptive than a Dumb
Least, thats how I interprerate it
versed helm
Therefore, to create a sentient being in the Halo universe you must first take the essence of one.
You couldn't just manufacture a general intelligence.
warm ridge
@versed helm They did it because said essences (despite being ripped of all there original memories and behaviors [it does seem to appear that they do possess a very limited amount of functions still, but have to obey orders]) are entirely immune to any sort of Flood logic plague.
humble yacht
well didact wanted to simultaneously punish humanity
versed helm
Which does kinda point towards the notion of a soul, and promethean knights being something that make use of it.
humble yacht
So even if it lacked efficiency, there was vindictive reasoning
warm ridge
The Forerunners had a huge problem when the Flood was inflcting the Logic plague onto practically every AI it encountered, digital essences were found to be immune to this effect entirely.
last anchor
Later anyway, the first round were his Prometheans themselves. But they realized they were kinda up against the wall at that point anyway
humble yacht
As for forerunner volunteers, they wanted to continue serving the didact while becoming immune to the flood
last anchor
So that was more of a "if we're gonna go out lets take them with us!"
Which seems pretty in line with the Warrior-Servants
warm ridge
btw, the Prometheans are one of the many attempts into bringing these digital essences back into a organic form just so you know.
So you could technically call them "living machines" in a funny way.
"In the case of the Ur-Didact's Promethean Knights, the extracted neural map was used as the basis for artificial intelligence constructs in a manner similar to the creation of human smart AIs. These intelligences contain many of their original memories and sometimes even portions of their personality, but otherwise behave within the limits of the duties assigned to them. These essences were stored in imprint matrices known as Durances, similar to the devices traditionally used to contain the last mental impressions of a deceased Forerunner."
versed helm
And from what you were saying, for some reason smart AIs created from an organic neural map are immune to the logic plague.
warm ridge
smart AI's? No.
It's stated it's "similar in creation", not identical.
Promethean Knights are also incredibly far from being a "smart AI", usually taking orders directly from a living Forerunner without question.
last anchor
Cause its Forerunner tech and therefor way advanced
Since Smart AI creation is basically a brute-force crude composition of a dead brain
versed helm
I was under the impression that Promethean knights were sapient in a limited sense.
Which would make them smart, by human reasoning.
last anchor
I believe they are, they certainly act that way in 5 when we see them not fighting.
Case in point the one in its cell banging its head on the wall
versed helm
Awww, man, all this Forerunner BS is so dumb.
Gives me a headache. Give me some darn MA5s and pelicans for crying out loud.
last anchor
My cries while reading Silentium.
"What is even going on?!"
versed helm
Like, theoretically there should be no need for composed essences when it comes to these Prometheans.
If you really can generate sapient AI out of nothing, they could've done that. Or they could've just given them basic combat programming.
The psychological justifications for the usage of composed essences are just horrible.
warm ridge
" Despite housing harvested human and Forerunner essences, the original personalities are no longer in evidence; the Knights are intelligent, but viciously ruthless in behavior and seemingly lacking any form of free will.[6] A Knight's rank is based on a combination of past military service and "popularity amongst their peer group".[7] Even composed children were converted into Promethean Knights."
versed helm
Well, from a philosophical standpoint sapience and free will don't necessarily go hand in hand.
It's easy to imagine living much the way we do now but not being able to sustain certain notions in our mental picture screens.
warm ridge
"While the Knights are fully machines, their AI is a result of organic minds transformed into software format via a device called the Composer, unlike the Crawlers or the sentinels which are completely artificial in origin."
last anchor
Pretty much, yeah.
versed helm
Yeah, I got that part Person.
last anchor
Like I said, Knights were made to be better.
What exactly is he trying to argue here, I got lost.
I saw something bout the composer and saw a chance to dig at Star Wars again
versed helm
So is it... Logistically easier to generate a smart AI based off an organic blueprint than to just bring one into existence?
warm ridge
Nah it's changed subjects now at this point lol.
versed helm
Because if it's not, then the Didact is incompetent.
versed helm
The worst thing about this is that I have no doubt that to the casual consumer of Halo media it's quite apparent, but because we've delved deep we're suffering from paralysis through analysis.
last anchor
Why do you think the Librarian replaced him with a hawt, younger version
Thats the real reason she yanked bornstellar; she pulled a couger
Cougar
versed helm
Yet another reason to be grossed out by the Librarian and her machinations
last anchor
Its the Forerunners bruh; everything they do is weird and/or gross.
I mean, literally sealing a dude away in a stasis tomb?
versed helm
That must be it, though. Composition represented primarily an efficient and useful way to quickly obtain battle-ready AI constructs, whereas creating them from scratch is more time and resource consuming.
If that wasn't the case, humanity wouldn't be reliant on brain donors.
last anchor
And producing viable ones too that could effectively fight the Flood
warm ridge
@last anchor before I was saying when the Composer "translates" a organic being into digital format, this stored essence is basically just that. A stored essence of the person right before they died/got composed that also possesses an entire chart capable of recreating there entire organic body as well.
Basically, I was saying these essences can be copied (and likely be copied infinitely) onto other beings. Chimera was disagreeing with this/didn't like the whole "multiple copy stuff" at all.
last anchor
Yeah, you cant program a Smart AI. You HAVE to use a humans neural latice
Evolution has done something we cant and its just easier to copy and adjust
Yeah I have to go with Chimera on this one
versed helm
But the other part was what Person was saying about prometheans being immune to the logic plague. Which would make sense if they don't have true free will, since the logic plague is really another term for "being persuasive".
last anchor
The only "copy" we know of is the Lord of Admirals and his peeps, and even they aren't full geases, they're just...echos
versed helm
But free will is different from the soul.
last anchor
I think Knights are immune to the plauge cause the plauge is mostly a thing for sentient or artificial intelligence
Whereas the Knights are kind of rigidly bowed
So you cant really make them think outside the box. They're like a hybrid smart/dumb AI
Far beyond Humanities capabilities of course
versed helm
That's what I was getting at, yeah.
warm ridge
@last anchor I literally just provided evidence that these essences are indeed copies of themselves, not there true original selves at all to Chimera. All I can say for sure is there likely isn't "infinitely created chakases" or more then 1 "chakas" roaming about in our current universe that we know about.
last anchor
Thats Forentheo tho.
warm ridge
In fact if another "chakas" was encountered, he'd still be nothing like the one we know about aka 343 Guilty Spark.
last anchor
And no, theres one Chakas, and hes in Spark.
Thats how that works.
Theres FULL composed versions, like Chakas,
warm ridge
did you not read anything I said before on this subject?
last anchor
And then theres stuff like Forentheo that are woven into DNA
One is an AI
Made from a person.
warm ridge
what
warm ridge
Forentheo was composed the exact same way Chakas was composed.
feral perch
It seems like he’s jumping in without proper context
feral perch
I’ve had that happen to me, it’s not fun
warm ridge
The imprints of Forentheo and Chakas was placed onto 343 Guilty Spark in identical manners from what we know as well.
versed helm
To be fair, we wouldn't be having this conversation if it had all been laid out in an easily understood way.
last anchor
Ahh but this is Discord.
versed helm
There is obviously interpretative wiggle room in the fiction.
warm ridge
343 Guilty Spark had many imprints placed on him, Chakas was the most dominant one of them all and the only one we ever saw show himself beyond Chakas/Spark deleting or merging with all of them until only Chakas and Spark was left when Spark's outer shell got destroyed.
versed helm
That's one interpretation.
warm ridge
The Librarian even states that Chakas/Spark wasn't capable of holding Forentheo at all, but while all at the same time the Gravemind was able to send multiple copies of Forentheo to the Didact in order to tell her about what the Domain actually was, and it'd be destroyed along with all other Precursor artifacts if the rings were activated. Instead, the Domain was heavily damaged, not destroyed.
That's not a interpretation, that's what it says in the actual lore.
last anchor
Yeah, cause they retconed the destruction
Along with the destruction of the ark. All the older stuff says the ark went kaboom.
And then throughout 4 the Domain is still cooked.
It only shows up as fixed when 5 started rolling around
warm ridge
last anchor
And we only got an answer to THAT in Fractures
warm ridge
go up here, I already talked about it with Chimera lol.
last anchor
Im still pretty sure theres only one Spark going around
Since he was intended as a caretaker AI of a specific instillation
Same as Tragic Solitude
warm ridge
also none of the older stuff says the Ark went "kaboom", in fact we had no idea what the Composer even was or any of this new stuff until 343 industries came into the picture.
feral perch
Cortana says the firing “Did a number on the Ark”
last anchor
The Halo Visual Guide states the Ark was "destroyed" and that Ardent Spirit went with it
As does stuff from the Encyclopedia
warm ridge
where?
last anchor
Heck the UNSC didnt know the Ark wasn't active still until the Rubicon went back.
warm ridge
I don't think you have your lore correctly and are thinking of the Greater Ark being destroyed, not the Lesser Ark.
last anchor
No, it was the minor
warm ridge
Greater Ark went kaboom, destroyed, star road flood destruction.
last anchor
The Major ark didnt exist until Cryptum
And both of those were written before Cryptum
warm ridge
...ok now I definitely know you have your lore mixed up.
last anchor
The original storyline at the end of Halo 3 was "04B blew up and took the Ark with it".
And that was what was reported in various books and additional material
UNTIL the retcon of its survival in Hunters in the Dark
And then they ALSO retconned the destruction of the domain sometime between 4 and 5 so they could explain Cortana escaping death in 4
warm ridge
The Greater Ark is older then the Lesser Ark. It existed long before the Lesser Ark was even created. In fact, it was made as a fail safe originally, but then got converted into another ring making facility after the Greater Ark and all the original rings were destroyed except for Installation 07.
last anchor
Not really related to the original commentary about there being multiple Sparks but
I know this. Your telling someone whos been reading this lore since before the first game was published. I got a first-hand signed copy of Fall of Reach mate, I know what Im talking about
In the original, Bungie era timeline, before 343 took over, the ark was destroyed at the end of Halo 3
Actually the Domain didnt exist until Cryptum...
warm ridge
It doesn't seem like you actually know/are getting lore confused all over the place and are now assuming 343 "retconned" a whole lot of stuff, even though this is what was actually going on/happening.
last anchor
At least I dont think so, can someone confirm that?
feral perch
lemme DM you
last anchor
All I know for sure is, until Cryptum, there was only one Ark, there was no Domain.
Actually all the stuff we're talking about here now was added into the unvierse through those three books.
warm ridge
BTW ONI knew the Ark was functioning on 2553 just so you know. That's when the Rubicon arrived.
last anchor
And the Rubicon was added into the lore when?
In Hunters in the Dark
Which came out AFTER Halo 4
warm ridge
"In March 2553, the Office of Naval Intelligence deployed an automated probe-carrying spacecraft to the damaged Ark using advanced slipspace technology. The ship arrived in November and dispersed its probes, although all communications with the devices were cut off after initial transmissions confirming the Ark's survival."
warm ridge
Yes, new material which was never revealed before this.
last anchor
Thats what I was saying, yes
warm ridge
which still applies as Official Lore.
versed helm
Person, what's the source on your quote?
warm ridge
@versed helm https://www.halopedia.org/Installation_00
versed helm
Hold on everyone
last anchor
Oh hells hes breaking out the big guns
feral perch
Halopedia is not a fool-proof source of information.
versed helm
Cuz what Killer Orca is saying is that 343 made some changes to what we thought we knew surrounding the Ark, which became manifest in Hunters in the Dark
So if that info is from a source that predates Hunters in the Dark, then you're right
warm ridge
It does typically source it's info.
versed helm
This isn't a battle of in-universe info, it's just out-of-universe when we thought what shenanigans.
warm ridge
that's why I asked, what about it being from Hunters in the Dark?
As far as we know from Halo 3 in particular, the Ring was destroyed, but it did a "number on the ark". She also assumed the Flood were also destroyed in the resulting explosion, and the head of the Covenant was all but dead.
last anchor
Im saying Im pretty sure the Rubicon and its lore was added into the Halo universe in Hunters in the Dark
As for the Arks survival, in the media of the time period (namely the Visual Guide, which came out after Reach), it was listed as destroyed
And it was listed AS destroyed until Hunters in the Dark came out and its destruction was retconned
"Did a number" can mean nearly anything, and bungie meant it that way Im pretty sure
feral perch
Interesting decision
warm ridge
this is literally all "343 lore" lol
the entire Essential Visual guide was put together by 343, and made by them to.
last anchor
Because they hadn't brought the Ark back yet
Like I said; retcons
This book was printed before Halo 4 came out
Which is also before Hunters came out
warm ridge
It just seemed like you were applying this lore as if Bungie made it, when in reality it was 343's doings all along.
last anchor
Yeah
versed helm
Let's move onto something less annoying
warm ridge
this is the lore and universe channel. We can talk about retcons and lore related stuff.
gilded mason
Aw, I was about to say that the Rubicon was from the Forerunner Saga first.
feral perch
Master Chief is the greatest Spartan-II
versed helm
Agreed.
warm ridge
I still don't see why you brought that part up about the "Ark" being believed to be destroyed, even though it apparently wasn't.
feral perch
I remembered that! @gilded mason
warm ridge
Retcon or not, according to current lore it's alive and thriving, recovering from the destruction of events that happened in Halo 3.
versed helm
Doesn't matter now. I think he was trying to account for my statement on 343's fate being your interpretation, because he inferred exactly what about your statement was my interpretation, potentially incorrectly.
last anchor
And now the Spirit of Fire is slowly pushing Atriox off it
versed helm
Though I don't even remember what I took issue with at this point, so it's all pointless.
feral perch
that is a confusing sentence
versed helm
It's a fairly poorly executed statement.
Bound to cause nothing but more trouble.
The cycle continues.
warm ridge
@last anchor tbh I'd argue it's more of a "stand off" then anything. The Spirit of Fire surprised Atriox greatly, he underestimated them 100% believing them to be some old worn out ship.
At the end of HW2 he still has one massive, huge army that's ready to attack. He even stated he "lost" important strategic area's of the Ark because of 2 dimwits who released the Flood again.
feral perch
if he were as smart as he was hyped up to be, the Enduring Conviction would have burnt it to a crisp very quickly
versed helm
Well, a dimwit.
last anchor
To be fair, one does not simply survive getting invaded by a Smart AI
The Covenant always had problems with that.
Especially one loaded into an S-II
carmine sleet
Atriox had no interest in killing the crew of the Spirit of Fire, he was more than willing to let them go
Obviously, he didn't know they couldn't leave but still
feral perch
Wellll, he had an interest in hunting them
last anchor
He enjoys the challange most likely
carmine sleet
Hunting doesn't necessarily mean kill
feral perch
yeaaah it does
versed helm
I think we'd probably need more details relating to the space engagement before making a solid call on what Atriox did and didn't do.
We can't exactly take what we see at face value.
carmine sleet
You can hunt someone down and bring them in alive
feral perch
I can’t imagine a Jiralhanae letting prey go.
last anchor
Im just surprised the Spirit could hold its own against the Enduring for so long...
carmine sleet
Atriox isn't like other Brutes
last anchor
What the hell did they make those Phoenix classes out of? Adamantium?
gilded mason
You can hunt someone down and bring them in alive
Atriox really doesn't seem the type.
humble yacht
Who would atriox be bringing a captured person to?
versed helm
That's what I was saying, Killer. I doubt they were just hanging around in space knife-fighting range exchanging fire from batteries while the SoF got strafed by banshees.
feral perch
When it comes to humans, he kinda is. Issue 4 of RoA pointed that out.
humble yacht
He answers only to himself
versed helm
Presumably some manoeuvring was going on.
warm ridge
tbh the Spirit of Fire was being all but destroyed and wouldn't of lasted long at all once Atriox ordered his troops to attack it once he realized what was going on.
Turns out 1 Spartan II with old armor and a random logistics AI can sneak in and blow up the entire ship lol.
versed helm
I would prefer to put the agency on Cutter in that situation. Make out like Atriox responded fairly decisively but Cutter is of course exceptional.
last anchor
I mean, he's Cutter. Theres a reason they gave him the Spirit of Fire.
If that man hadnt been in cryo during the Covenant War, he might have stood with Cole
feral perch
Spirit of Fire is sick, honestly as cool as the PoA... but against a CAS class? Nah fam, you know it had major plot armor
last anchor
Only thing I can think that could go toe to toe with a CAS would be Infinity
versed helm
I mean, if the SoF was manoeuvring in a purely defensive way and trying to stay out of range it might have had a chance.
feral perch
Or a Prelate fleet
last anchor
But it looks like they're just sorta sitting there, yeah...
That cutscenes kinda weird.
warm ridge
@versed helm There wasn't exactly anywhere "to" go.
versed helm
Space is big, Person. First thing you learn in TFoR.
gilded mason
Yeah, from what I remember, both ships just sorta sat there while the only thing assaulting the SoF were some banshees.
warm ridge
It's open space in all directions, it's not like he has planet to maneuver around.
versed helm
So's the Ark.
last anchor
Ark's like...stupid big.
warm ridge
Not only that, no slipspace drive, which renders his "moving around capabilities" basically null.
last anchor
(Spirit of Fire backing up noise as it floats away to the other side of the Ark)
feral perch
LOL
versed helm
And y'all should know you can't trust visual depictions of space combat in Halo if you're on the Nylund train.
feral perch
Nylund train is best train
versed helm
Also if you think having not having a slipspace drive effects in-system combat manoeuvrability on a human ship, your conceptualization is poor.
feral perch
Followed by Denning, then Buckell
warm ridge
Spirit of Fire moving off to one direction while it's engines get fired upon by many Banished banshee's and other Banished ships along with the CAS Cruiser itself, bam engine destroyed ship going down crash landing on the Ark wee woo wee woo wee wooo
last anchor
So back up cockpit forward
feral perch
Without plot armor, that’s pretty much what should have happened
warm ridge
That's literally what was happening, but quick thinking from Isabel saved them by a lot.
versed helm
I love how we're always talking about Forerunner BS as if it's all totally logical but the moment Cutter demonstrates exceptional captainship the term plot armour gets flung around.
last anchor
Honestly, I would like one of two things;
A) a solid reason Enduring Conviction didn't get into the brawl itself (say it was something the Ark did, I dont care) or B) give the Spirit something that Atriox was afraid of to get into fight range
warm ridge
like quite literally all of there defenses were being picked off one by one, you know that right?
last anchor
For the moment.
Good thing its a Pheonix class and can literally rebuild its guns with parts from its hangers XD
feral perch
Lol guys, what if the Gravemind survived and consumed its own essence to transport the Spirit to the Ark using neural physics.
last anchor
It lierally SELF MANUFACTURES Archer missiles for its launchers.
Seriously, Phoenix classes are dirty and I love them
@feral perch I'll take that over Cortana mate XD
versed helm
Assuming it was just the Enduring Conviction and the SoF, the SoF could have kept manoeuvring. As obviously did happen- and by-the-by, if you don't know that all visual representations of space combat in sci-fi are abstract representations, then I genuinely pity you.
feral perch
ouch, that’s harsh
last anchor
One does not simply IMAGINE space combat. The human brain is not made for that.
warm ridge
@feral perch Give it another 30 minutes and the entire ship would've been crash landing lol.
Actually, probably more like 10-20 minutes all honestly. What you need to realize is that 1 mission didn't actually last that long at all in order to get access to the Gravity lift, it was quick. Very quick.
last anchor
Well remember the partical cannon
versed helm
But I just want to make it absolutely clear - what I am saying is that it's a better interpretation if Atriox wasn't a complete idiot who underestimated Cutter, and that Cutter managed to evade him in space.
Rather than Cutter getting toyed with until Atriox's ship got blown up.
feral perch
Yeah, Real Time Strategy isn’t all that real hah
versed helm
An interpretation that makes Atriox look a fool as an interpretation which undermines his character needlessly.
last anchor
Atriox was overconfident (which is fair for a Brute, even him) and Cutter was just really good (also fair considering his posting where he was)
feral perch
Atriox’s character isn’t super consistent mind you
last anchor
My guess is the fight would have been going Atroixs way until the partical cannon strike
versed helm
If there's one thing we know about Atriox it's that he's smart.
feral perch
And his motivations aren’t very clear
gilded mason
If there's one thing we know about Atriox it's that he's smart.
Eh.
versed helm
That's kinda the premise. He's smart and he can beat up Spartans.
last anchor
Actually wait, the grav lift you go up in to get into the ship
warm ridge
Cutter was from an era of Military Captains who knew every part of there ship, almost every crew member, and what every single gun, compartment, bomb and more could do.
last anchor
I mean, remember the platform left in Uplift Reserve...
versed helm
Why didn't they just shut off the grav lift
last anchor
If you just move something THAT BIG your leaving a whole bunch of troops just on the surface to go do something else.
versed helm
And chase down the SoF
gilded mason
Wouldn't an energy projector still work even sitting still?
warm ridge
Remember by 2559, Cutter is practically 90 years old.
versed helm
lmao
warm ridge
what
feral perch
Wasn’t it on a small plateau separated from the surrounding land?
last anchor
Cutter has not aged a single SECOND since he was put in cryo
warm ridge
I'm saying his actual age is indeed 90, Cryo made his body not age at all.
warm ridge
His actual time clock still continued, he's 90.
versed helm
Thanks for pointing out that basic maths Person
last anchor
So biologically hes still 50 or whatever and that has nothing to do with chornological age
By that math Chief's like...what, 50?
versed helm
Killer, you should apologize for inferring meaning
versed helm
And assuming he was contributing something to the discussion
last anchor
I mean, saying Cutter was senile MIGHT be viable but
warm ridge
bro I'm contributing quite a bit to the discussion here lol.
feral perch
I thought cryo only slowed the aging process
last anchor
It slows it almost to nothing
warm ridge
Cryo slows down/stops the aging process @feral perch
feral perch
Hm.
warm ridge
well
last anchor
Case in point; Anders comes out of cryo looking just like she did when she went in
feral perch
Weellllll
feral perch
Plastic surgery much?
warm ridge
It slows it down enough to where a single year in Cryo is many life times to the actual body inside Cryo.
last anchor
Visual representations dont count. XD
feral perch
Old Anders was prettier
warm ridge
That's just an art style change tbh.
versed helm
I get Leia vibes from new Anders
warm ridge
Art style and the fact that they didn't have the original faces of the people who did those characters anymore.
last anchor
Glad Im not the only one
feral perch
It has to do with the fact that old Anders was constructed entirely from scratch, and new Anders- yeah
warm ridge
They had to use brand new people's faces, scanned them in etc.
remember on HW1 the faces weren't 3D modeled at all (maybe in actual gameplay they were but who's going to notice the difference between 6 pixels and 8?)
feral perch
New Anders seems more charismatic than old Anders.
last anchor
Eh
versed helm
Y'know what, I've got it
What happened was that after the space battle cutscene, the SoF managed to break off the engagement and escape
And then the Enduring Conviction went off and and set down its grav lift
Only possible way it makes sense.
warm ridge
@feral perch Old Anders and old Captain Cutter weren't constructed from scratch. They actually used real life people's faces which got scanned, and that's what they worked off of. This is generally how most video game design works today, it even worked like that in H3.
versed helm
I guess it just wanted to drop some dudes off somewhere. Didn't see a threat.
feral perch
I’m sure I read that the faces of the old characters were entirely digital constructions
versed helm
Ship combat in Halo is actually a bit like a jousting match anyway - ships build up momentum, make passes at one another then get a moment of reprieve.
warm ridge
The bodies sure, were created from scratch, but the faces themselves weren't.
stable schooner
So we’re saying The Spirit Of Fires Pilot Armor is bad but Rtas in Halo 3 with 1 CAS and 9 CCS defeated Truths fleet of 3 CAS and 27 CCS. In a Straight up fight to.
warm ridge
look up how face capture works. @feral perch
versed helm
Clearly being a tactical genius pays dividends when it comes to ship combat in the Halo universe.
warm ridge
Motion capture has actually been used in video games since the 90's funny enough.
gilded mason
So we’re saying The Spirit Of Fires Pilot Armor is bad but Rtas in Halo 3 with 1 CAS and 9 CCS defeated Truths fleet of 3 CAS and 27 CCS. In a Straight up fight to.
Ye. Rtas is best. 😉
warm ridge
also HW1 was also done in motion capture wait what @versed helm
there was leaks of it being done as far back as 2007
versed helm
I meant relating to the facial animations.
They're a little cartoonish. Of course, I'm probably wrong there too.
warm ridge
oh yea if we're talking about eye balls moving, jaws moving, talking, etc. That was all done in animation and entirely made up.
Capture software like that wasn't there yet.
but the actual face you see there was built off of someone elses face basically.
humble yacht
Tom skerritt
warm ridge
not sure if it's allowed to show leaks of HW1 from 2007-08 here so I deleted the link just incase.
humble yacht
You don’t need to show leaks, you can look up who was cutter’s facial reference in HW1
Tom skerritt and Ed Harris, apparently
warm ridge
Where'd you find that? I couldn't find that info anywhere.
versed helm
Tom Skrrrrrt
warm ridge
I just like listing stuff and having a source to it y'know.
don't want to be made a fool or anything lmfao
weird how his official wikipedia page has nothing on it listed from HW1 at all.
warm ridge
better? xd
humble yacht
Yeah because now it’s like you’re not just repeating what I said
But lengthier
I’m guessing that having your face used as a reference doesn’t count toward filmography since you don’t do actual acting
Unlike with actual facial capture
Or mo-cap
Or voice acting
warm ridge
Yea I saw that, I'm pretty sure they're talking about the facial animations, eye movement, etc. The facial structure was constructed off facial capture stuff.
feral perch
“They were effectively ‘hand drawn’ amalgams of character, rigging and aesthetics. “
warm ridge
Read what I just said.
feral perch
He says that the new models use proper facial capture. It seems like that is in comparison to no real facial capture.
I did. It doesn’t seem to fit with what’s in that article.
warm ridge
dude it fits with it perfectly. The facial capture in HW2 cut scenes basically mimics the entire face, from jaw moving, eyes, and more. Animations are no longer needed to be drawn at all for the faces in HW2.
In HW1 technology like this either didn't exist at the time, or they didn't have access to it.
So they took a bunch of facial references of a few individuals and worked off of that for the rest of the face. The body movements (arms, legs) were all done through motion capture though as far as I know.
feral perch
Hm.
warm ridge
google facial reference on google and you'll get the idea as to what it is.
man this conversation subject has been getting twisted around a whole lot lol
1st it's the composer, then hw2 stuff, then hw1 facial animations
stable schooner
And how Exactly does Covenant Invisibility Tech work if it can turn Phantoms invisible to. Like could they turn a CCS cruiser Invisible?
carmine sleet
I believe it's creating a field that bends light around the object
Just double checked on Halopedia, it is indeed a field of energy bending light around the user/vehicle/ship
stable schooner
Though I imagine with the superiority of Covenant Capital ships they wouldn’t need mass Camo. Also Lol looking back I find it Funny Rtas says “One single flood Spore can destroy a Species.” Yet also calls a Entire Flood infected CCS Cruiser “small contamination” Never Change Halo 3, Never Change.
last anchor
Hes got a flair for the dramatic.
"You just glassed half a continent" Lol no not really, its mostly just the area around the portal
Some random dude in South Africa seeing Covenant ships approaching.
"Its the prawns, I knew they'd be back!"
gilded mason
district 10 when
last anchor
I mean District 9 WAS made off the bones of the abandoned Halo movie wasnt it?
The prawns legs and motions kind of suggest a modified Sangheili gait.
carmine sleet
It was made from the abandoned Halo movie project
last anchor
I thought so
stoic hamlet
They also used some props in Elysium
One of the rebel guys that gets killed by the shuttle is wearing a marine helmet.
warm ridge
@stable schooner Yes, they can turn CCS Cruisers invisible if Halo Reach is telling us anything.
@last anchor Actually they glassed a sizeable portion of Africa funny enough. It's a whole lot bigger then just the "portal" area to.
full forge
... That's a CSO.
CCS cruisers are little buggers when compared, the Long Night of Solace was longer than the Infinity is. Actually more than four times as long.
versed helm
I have a question regarding the Mantle of Responsibility
Should humanity just abandon the Mantle of Responsibility?
gilded mason
Yes, anyone that has aspirations of following through on the Mantle should abandon that line of thought.
Unless it's, like, a joint effort on the part of all species or something.
versed helm
Seeing as how it ruined the Forerunners and probably countless other races
How did the Librarian describe the Mantle?
I still like to know what happened to 049 Abject Testament
remote spruce
What about 7 Broken iPod
gilded mason
How did the Librarian describe the Mantle?
In Halo 3, like this:
Librarian: The Mantle. You still hold to that [fairy tale] after all that has happened? After this thing has consumed a million worlds?
Can't you see? Belief in the Mantle sealed our doom! Weakened our [protectorates], bred dependence and sloth. Our [so-called Guardianship] has stripped those we would keep safe of any capacity for self-defense!```
fallen karma
alright listen
i've been out of the hardcore lore game for a while
but i need to know
i NEED to know
at the end of primordium, we are brought across 10 inactive proto graveminds on the ring
has that been touched at all
since then
i'm assuming no
but i wanna see it in action
PLS
fair hazel
They might have been cleansed
versed helm
are we speaking about the book primordium?
warm ridge
@fallen karma They would have been cleansed if they weren't all in quarantine zones.
If they were, then they survived all the cleansing and more. Likely died of starvation if not kept in stasis.
feral perch
There’s apparently some question as to whether the Flood are physically capable of starving.
humble yacht
pretty sure those 10 inactive proto graveminds mentioned are in fact the ones kept in stasis on Installation 07
warm ridge
@feral perch Any surviving Flood that survived the activation of the Halo Array (any of them not made of Organic matter, keep in mind the Array only kills the Flood's food, not the Flood itself) all clearly starved out and are no longer present in today's Halo universe besides the ones kept in stasis/protected from the Array's effects.
feral perch
Halo 3 seems to contradict Halo CE in that regard. Halo kills both Flood and its food.
warm ridge
did you read my comment at all
warm ridge
The Halo Array kills all Organic matter.
feral perch
What part of the Flood is not organic?
warm ridge
probably dust, corrupted dust, so on so forth. Not much is really known about that part, but apparently it's a thing so.
humble yacht
flood dust is still organic matter
The Halo array destroys neural networks
that's why advanced flood forms are rendered useless
warm ridge
so anything that doesn't have a neural network.
humble yacht
plants are fine
single cell organisms are likely fine too
That original comment by Cortana in CE is long outdated and out of context on current knowledge of how the Halos work
feral perch
Anything that was controlled by the Flood that also lacked a neural network would fall apart after a firing. It wouldn’t have time to starve. Or it would be dissolved by the solvent
humble yacht
A Flood spore might survive the array but Combat Forms and higher are instantly rendered useless
warm ridge
The thing is it'd render the Flood into a zombie-like state, there'd be no communication at all between any of the surviving life forms.
humble yacht
it wouldn't just remove their ability to function in higher thought processes
it would remove all ability to function
warm ridge
at best you'd have worlds covered with giant, useless flood biomass that's decaying rapidly.
humble yacht
that's what the Solvent was for
that's why the galaxy wasn't covered in miasma after the firing
feral perch
There is the curious speculation on Guilty Spark’s part about Flood hurtling toward our galaxy. They should be starving to death if they exist, so there’s some speculation that the Flood can hibernate like the Dead Space 3 Necromorphs
humble yacht
well a cell in spore form requires very little nutrition and can survive for long time
warm ridge
Dead Space Necromorphs hibernate by freezing themselves until some random biological organic being comes across them and activates them again. @feral perch
humble yacht
spores can wait until they encounter nutrient rich environments, then activate and proliferate
we see this in yeast
feral perch
Also the Gravemind on Delta Halo apparently lived off trees and small animals as far as speculation is concerned. And yes, I know.
humble yacht
Necromorphs are a bit different because they're not biologically alive
they're moving due to electromagnetic signals from the markers
feral perch
Mm, right.
warm ridge
As far as we know, any Flood that wasn't kept in stasis in things like shield worlds, or on the Halo rings/outside of the Array's effects, died/starved/decayed rapidly over the last 100,000 years.
humble yacht
We like to equate the Flood to zombies because of their ability to "revive" the dead, but in actuality the Flood is simply another form of life
feral perch
Yeah.
warm ridge
The Flood is more so of a "higher being" type of life form. In actuality they're likely controlled by the Precursors from whatever random dimension they exist in (keep in mind the Precursors are capable of living, and dying hundreds of thousands of times.)
which is why I state that they're just another form the Precursors decided to show themselves as in order to get revenge against the Forerunners, deeming them as mistakes.
feral perch
That’s way out in the speculation zone.
warm ridge
not exactly.
warm ridge
Precursors have lived, and died hundreds of thousands of times as far as we know according to the lore. They aren't part of the dimension we see in the Halo universe.
The Flood is one of the many forms.
humble yacht
The Flood is the corrupted will of Precursors who intended to reconstitute themselves but went crazy due to the negative emotions surrounding their conflict with the Forerunners
The Flood was doing bad things even before the last living Precursor joined it's mind with the Flood
warm ridge
"The Precursors were not tied to any particular physical form, assuming any shape as they saw fit; they would allow themselves to die away and be evolved anew over and over again, taking on numerous incarnations both physical and immaterial.
They lived through different stages of technological and cultural development countless times, being at times hyper-advanced and spacefaring and at others living primitively and remaining confined to their worlds."
feral perch
I do find it odd that the Precursors were just able to be beaten by the Forerunners. It seems like they should have vastly overpowered their own creations.
And it happened twice. Once in the war over the Mantle, then again with the firing of the Array.
warm ridge
It's because the Precursors then-current form never fought back. They were testing the Forerunners to see if they'd up hold the rules of the Mantle that they created, even to the very end before deciding to create the Flood and become the Flood.
feral perch
Precursors are kinda lame if you think about it.
humble yacht
I personally like the idea that they aren't fully omnipotent
what's interesting about literal gods
warm ridge
in the Halo universe, the Precursors basicaly are literal gods lol
feral perch
I think they’re a bit too esoteric and bizarre to be explored much more than they have been.
humble yacht
and permanently changed
mossy finch
Where is this information from @warm ridge
warm ridge
yes, there organic form that they show themselves as can be harmed, targeted, and more.
humble yacht
as can their immaterial forms
warm ridge
"permanently changed" Yes, they change there organic form and have lived through thousands of different life styles.
feral perch
And I don’t want them to be some kind of deus ex machina in Infinite, you know?
warm ridge
I wouldn't be surprised if at one point the Precursors wanted to exterminate one of there then-created life forms in another galaxy either.
humble yacht
Precursors have permanently changed into the Flood, not just physically but mentally
feral perch
The Halo array destroys neural physics constructs. I wouldn’t be surprised if they affect beings in “higher dimensions”
humble yacht
and even if the Flood can't be permanently eliminated, it's presence ebbs and flows. It's not all-powerful all of the time
warm ridge
@mossy finch Halo: Silentium, page 321
here's what it actually says:
"The Precursors lived in many shapes, flesh and spirit, primitive and advanced, spacefaring and locked to their worlds ... Evolved over and over again, died away, were reborn, explored, and seeded many galaxies "
mossy finch
Kool thanks
warm ridge
btw Chimera30
"The Precursors were not strictly benevolent, considering strife, pain and indeed evil an inherent part of the universe. The struggles of good and evil, the pleasures and pains of life, added to the 'sweetness', a sensation or emotional state that seemed to not have a human-analogue. "
mossy finch
So that would mean with humanity taking up the mantle that the flood would test us.
warm ridge
Because of the Forerunners absolute hatred towards life and there "governing system" which polices worlds, the Precursors struct back at the Forerunners but instead as the Flood. Some Forerunners even believed the Precursors planned to exterminate the Forerunners all along as well.
What I think actually happened was because the Forerunners drove the then-current Precursor life forms to extinction (or at least drove them out of the Milky Way galaxy entirely), and how the Forerunners threatened Humanity to the point where Humanity would've never been able to gain the mantle (Forerunner-Human war) the Precursors thought the only option was to exterminate them entirely.
humble yacht
If that was indeed the case (I personally don't buy into that explanation), then their execution was extremely shoddy
warm ridge
actually I think the Precursors entire goal wasn't to exterminate them, but to also drive them out of the galaxy the same way the Forerunners drove them out of the galaxy.
which they definitely did besides the very few remaining Forerunners that somehow still exist in the Milky Way galaxy, in unknown area's.
@mossy finch The Ancient Humans were already tested (Flood-Human war) and passed the test with flying colors, which is why the Flood never attacked the Ancient Humans ever again.
The now current Humans (one's you see in the Halo games etc) need to be tested again, because of the Forerunners meddling in the Human biological genetic code.
humble yacht
If that's the case, then for a supposedly omniscient, omnipotent species, that was a silly mistake
mossy finch
That's what I thought. Because it would literally be the perfect time to test us again with our power being stripped from us by Cortana. As well as the possibility of her being infected with the logic plague.
The Primordial did tell a forerunner there origin but it ended up killing that forerunner. I think alot more happened then just them taking the form of the flood.
warm ridge
It didn't kill the Forerunner, the Forerunner killed himself because of him /her learning how they were created and probably even the true meaning to life itself.
mossy finch
Well that's what I meant just in less words.
warm ridge
well you said it as if the Primordial killed the Forerunner with words when it was actually the Forerunner who killed itself lol.
mossy finch
Ether way we still don't know exactly what is going on with the flood or how they came to be. We can't be certain that the precursors are still sane.
warm ridge
btw Chimera30, I wouldn't say the Precursors "know everything", they're still learning things about the universe itself. They weren't the creators of the universe, they're just the creators of life in the Milky Way galaxy and in other galaxies to, along with having lived and died millions of times. I'm sure they've had rebellions against them before in other galaxies to.
as far as we know the Precursors achieved this status through there advanced Neural Physics logic.
humble yacht
if that's the case then that means it's possible that some things could occur outside of their realm of control or their plans
warm ridge
yep, such as the Forerunners rebelling, Halo ring activations, etc.
humble yacht
even becoming the Flood
gilded mason
The Ancient Humans were already tested (Flood-Human war) and passed the test with flying colors, which is why the Flood never attacked the Ancient Humans ever again.
Didn't the Primordial talk about not having tested humans yet, or finished testing, to Iso, after the Flood-Human war had already ended long ago?
warm ridge
in terms of the Flood, they created the Flood and used it as a voice to the Forerunners.
Remember, the Flood isn't a "all eating life" being. It can decide who and when to kill.
humble yacht
it was while it had a specific target, sure
warm ridge
such as even using it to torture certain Forerunners who were part of there mass extinction, or important figures who control the Forerunner military to make them weak.
humble yacht
but once the Forerunners were gone, if the Flood wasn't an all-eating evil being, it wouldn't have presented itself as an enemy again
unless it had more ire in it than what was directed towards the Forerunners
The Flood ultimately got what it wanted; it defeated the Forerunners
warm ridge
I see the Flood as a life form the Precursors created to test beings to see if they're actually capable of holding the Mantle or not.
humble yacht
Yeah i don't subscribe to that
maybe that's what they hoped to be when turning themselves into that dust initially, but I firmly believe whatever original intent they had has been abandoned or at the very least corrupted
warm ridge
Sure seems like that when instead of erasing the entire Ancient-Human race, they backed off once Humanity decided to sacrifice a third of there population with genetic modifications in order to survive, instead of doing a mass extinction event of the entire galaxy.
humble yacht
Except that was meaningless when because of them attacking humanity at the start, they cause humanity to attack the Forerunners, leading to Ancient Humans being wiped out and regressed
if Ancient Humans had already passed the test and were ready for the Mantle, the Flood did a horrible job helping them claim it
warm ridge
actually the Ancient Humans were well into recovering when they attacked the Forerunners, as the Ancient Humans were cleansing any world found with Flood infection on it.
humble yacht
according to your theory, the Flood gave themselves more work to do
warm ridge
whatever plan the Ancient Humans did passed the Precursors mantle test, while the plan the Forerunners did went against it 100%.
humble yacht
if the Flood had not messed humanity and found another way to attack the Forerunners, then they could have gotten their revenge and given the Mantle to Ancient Humanity
just like the Precursors wanted
warm ridge
Remember, the Flood didn't need to back off the Ancient Humans at all, they could've easily took control of the entire Ancient Human fleet, along with attacking the Forerunners and easily wiping them out to which is basically what they did to the Forerunners.
humble yacht
the Flood backed off of humanity to give the Forerunners false hope in a cure
which was the first seed of discontent sown
The Flood didn't want to just physically destroy the Forerunners
warm ridge
The Forerunners had no idea what the Flood even were, they only discovered said "cure" from interrogating certain Ancient Humans during the Forerunner-Flood war.
humble yacht
they wanted to make them feel unworthy and break them apart from the inside
warm ridge
other then that, the Forerunners had no idea a cure was even possible when the Forerunner-Flood war started at all.
humble yacht
it was a long revenge plot that ultimately would be more satisfying than just killing them quickly
warm ridge
Like I already said, the Flood aka the Precursors had a mantle test, the Ancient Humans passed it, was recovering from the destruction the Flood inflicted upon them, while all at the same time were cleansing worlds with Flood infection. One of these worlds happened to be a Forerunner world, and so the Forerunner-Ancient human war started.
The Flood didn't take part in the Forerunner-Ancient Human war at all. They didn't even attack the Forerunners when the war ended either, and the Forerunners still had no idea why the Ancient Humans were cleansing any of there worlds at all. At best they saw it as an act of war.
stoic hamlet
The flood are no longer the precursors
gilded mason
the Flood aka the Precursors had a mantle test, the Ancient Humans passed it
So when did they decide to un-pass the humans?
stoic hamlet
They no longer follow the mantle as the Precursors once did, they follow a warped version of it.
warm ridge
When the Forerunners regressed the Humans back to the stone age, and messed with there genetic code. @gilded mason
humble yacht
according to him, after Forerunners regressed humanity as a species
gilded mason
I see.
warm ridge
basically if it wasn't for the Flood attacking and basically kicking the Forerunners out of the galaxy in the exact same way the Forerunners did to the Precursors originally, Humanity would've never been able to gain the mantle under Forerunner control.
humble yacht
which if that were the case, what's going on currently in the Halo universe is a pretty shoddy test.
stoic hamlet
I mean, yeah, that’s a given. The Forerunners were egotistical A-holes
humble yacht
too many things left up to chance to allow events to play out the way they did for this to be an adequate "test" for humanity
warm ridge
tbh I think the whole Flood breaking out of those quarantine zones and the whole High Charity act was a small test to see if Humanity was actually ready to fight them at all, while all at the same time discovered the Covenant were planning to wipe them out entirely, and almost did.
Clearly the Precursors didn't want this, so what did the Flood do? Basically rip and destroy the Covenant's point of control, and kill the leaders. They even helped the Elites/then Humans take out the last Prophet when they could of done it instead.
gilded mason
Eh...
stoic hamlet
No
humble yacht
they only showed up to "help" after the sequence had been started
if the sequence had not been started, there would have been no reason to escort Chief and Arby to the console
warm ridge
you do realize if it wasn't for the "help", they would've never been able to take them out.
humble yacht
it was a mutual assistance
The Flood needed Chief, and Chief at that moment needed the Flood (or any reinforcement for that matter)
let's say the Flood had gotten there 5 min earlier
there would have been no reason to keep Chief alive
warm ridge
and if you say the Flood basically aren't the Precursors or are corrupted Precursors, why did they allow a message from Cortana be sent? Better yet, why didn't they infect the entire Sol system when they had the chance to do so? Flood dispersal pods are a thing, they don't even really need a "covenant ship" to do it at all.
humble yacht
the simplest answer is often the best
warm ridge
the whole warning of Cortana being sent didn't ever need to be sent what so ever.
humble yacht
The Gravemind was prepping to do just that, but when it learned that the Ark had been found, got scared and devoted 100% of it's attention to thwarting the activation of the rings
warm ridge
"got scared" lol no. It was simply keeping Humanity from being wiped out once again.
mossy finch
Cuz you know galactic genocide puts a damper on flood plans.
humble yacht
or keeping itself from getting wiped out
warm ridge
It wouldn't of been wiped out, any Flood on any of the Halo rings that broke out would still be alive, in stasis chambers.
or any of the shield worlds or really where ever they're kept.
humble yacht
it would have been set back again for a long time
which, while tolerable, was not desirable
mossy finch
Another 100000 years and the extinction of there food
warm ridge
clearly the Flood/Precursors are very capable of being tolerable and waiting. The problem was if said event happened, any humans that did go to the Ark would be the last humans alive/left, outside of the Galaxy the Precursors intended for Humanity to control after they passed the Mantle over to them.
humble yacht
"Defeat is simply the addition of time to a sentence I never deserved... But you imposed"
warm ridge
along with a Covenant genocidal mission that would've likely killed any and every Human found. Humanity would be extinct.
mossy finch
No if all life died the flood would have starved eventually.
It would still kill them in the end
warm ridge
once again..Any Flood kept in stasis chambers would've never starved. Any Flood that managed to use Plants, grow them, and more on the rings would've also not starved.
They'd still easily exist, even if the rings were fired a 2nd time.
humble yacht
but not necessarily in the capacity where'd they'd be conscious
i.e. in the Coordinated Stage
warm ridge
actually they definitely would be able to become concious by forming another Gravemind in the exact same way they did on Installation 05.
humble yacht
which we don't have all the info on how that happened
warm ridge
we don't, but you can't dismiss it as evidence.
humble yacht
you can't assume such an event would occur again
warm ridge
point is clearly they want Humanity to survive somehow to the point where they're capable of either passing the test, or fighting and failing.
humble yacht
obviously that's not "clearly" the point, other wise there'd be no room for debate
warm ridge
It basically is when the Flood didn't infect the Sol system entirely with units he left over. He didn't need to bring his entire then-currennt force to the Ark at all, and that's pretty clear with the Cortana message.
humble yacht
I think it's possible that The Flood could see this version of humanity as having elements of the Forerunners which they still hate and have a prejudice against
You make it sound 100% certain that the Gravemind knew she got that message out
warm ridge
The Gravemind already knew of the message, and wanted to send it, you know that right?
humble yacht
your evidence?
cause the transcripts of H3 don't really suggest that
Gravemind even asks Chief why he came
last anchor
Probably Traviss's "Human Weakness"
warm ridge
give me a moment, need to find it but I definitely read it somewhere.
humble yacht
It even allows her message about the Portal to be sent to Earth (although it didn't know the contents of the message).
excerpt from Halopedia entry on Human Weakness
based on not knowing the contents of the message, allowing Cortana's message to get out could have been for a variety of reasons
an obvious one would be to give her a brief instance of hope that would then be taken away when nothing came of her message, further spiraling her into despair and making control of her easier
but when Chief came to save her, that plan failed
warm ridge
"Lord Hood's instincts were correct: the Gravemind was in fact aware of the Portal and where it led (it had learned this after assimilating the Prophet of Regret) - and had deliberately allowed Cortana to send a message in order to lure all of its enemies into one place. Then the millions of Flood forms stored within High Charity would assimilate them all. Cortana, however, managed to hide the existence of Installation 08 and the index she possessed from the Gravemind."
humble yacht
where's that from?
humble yacht
because that conflicts with the fact that the Gravemind arrived at Mars, saw the active portal, and then rushed to the Ark on its own using modified High Charity slipspace drives
warm ridge
he basically already knew exactly where the Portal went the moment Regret was assimilated, and where it was located.
humble yacht
if the gravemind knew where the Ark was and wanted everyone to gather there, why attempt to go to earth first?
warm ridge
because he wanted to lure everyone into one place, at least the Master Chief in particular and the "destroy all humans" genocidal Covenant.
humble yacht
but there was no reason to try to go to earth first
especially not after sending that infected cruiser as a scout
warm ridge
It wasn't a scout, it was a message he already knew about, he just didn't know what was within the message itself or what it said specifically, but he probably had an idea from examining and traversing through Cortana's thoughts everytime she wanted to "feel alive" in the simulations the Gravemind created.
That's how he also cornered Master Chief in particular a person of importance.
humble yacht
the Gravemind can see everything through each flood unit
when that cruiser arrived at earth, it would have already seen the portal
warm ridge
every form he has control over, yes.
humble yacht
and yet, the next day, High Charity still arrived in the Sol System, at Mars, and from Mars, jumped to the Ark
warm ridge
He already knew of the Portal way before he ever sent a scout.
humble yacht
There is no reason why it needed to enter the sol system after that cruiser saw the activated portal
esp if it just wanted to go to the ark
it's not like the only path there can be made from Sol
warm ridge
It likely went to the Sol system originally in order to infect each world or "test humanity" (as I've been arguing this entire time), but after seeing Humanity's own defenses and how it was battle torn from the Covenant war (humanity was in an extremely weak state and easily exploitable), he instead went over to the Ark in order to stop Truth from activating the rings at all.
humble yacht
the gravemind entry on Halopedia says it didn't gain knowledge of the plan for remote activation until after having made the jump
then, upon realizing the severity of the situation, abandoned planned assault of earth in favor of going to the Ark itself
warm ridge
The Gravemind also only asked Chief why he came. He didn't know of the promise he made to Cortana, or that Cortana had the "index" at all, and for the same reason the Ur-Didact asked Cortana "Your compassion for man kind is misplaced" because he didn't understand the relationship Cortana and Chief had at all, not like he knew about it either.
With the Gravemind asking Chief why he came, the Gravemind had no idea what Cortana actually had, or why Chief alone was trying to save her. He also didn't know about the promise Chief made to Cortana. He was confused why Chief came alone, and was even allowing Chief to leave instead of killing him right then and there.
humble yacht
If you're talking about that tendril on the pelican, I vehemently doubt that the gravemind actively let go
I get that's a hotly debated point but no confirmation on either side so no reason to assume he "let him go"
warm ridge
no I'm talking about when Chief entered High Charity and was exploring it.
humble yacht
if that's what you mean then he did attempt to kill chief
warm ridge
no, because if he did then he would've quite literally grabbed Chief the moment he entered the Reactor room and killed him.
or even when he saw the Pelican, clearly he had a tentacle capable of killing him on the spot.
humble yacht
i imagine that if he had even the slightest expectation that Chief would have tried to run before rescuing Cortana, he would have explored that option
but the Flood forces start coming at you just before you encounter the Pelican
warm ridge
At best Chief encountered the few Flood forms that were active and roaming about. You could even see it as if he was trying to push Chief towards the Pelican to leave, thinking it'd be foolish if he tried to save Cortana at all.
humble yacht
before that, it was a one-way trip into High Charity with no clear escape route
once you start ascending that little hill that leads to the space where the pelican sits, Flood forces start assaulting you with extreme prejudice
so at that point, Gravemind has begun assaulting him in earnest
or at least, as much as his pride believes is sufficient
warm ridge
not really, they only start assaulting you with extreme prejudice after Chief saves Cortana, there's tons of Flood waiting for him, sitting right outside of the then mostly clear reactor room when he's saved her.
humble yacht
well then we disagree with what extreme prejudice looks like
warm ridge
If it wasn't for Cortana having the idea to explode the reactors, I highly doubt Chief would've gotten out of that alive.
warm ridge
It's easily 3x the amount of Flood forms then, then there was before when Chief entered. There numbers were probably limited due to all the explosions though, and most of the Gravemind's tentacles were being ripped apart/weakened by the explosions.
humble yacht
one could argue that his anger after realizing what she had made him send an amount of forces that he might otherwise have considered "overkill"
but that doesn't mean he wasn't seriously trying to kill Chief before at the pelican platform
the Gravemind has been shown to be a prideful entity that enjoys playing with it's food, but that doesn't mean it was willing to let Chief go
warm ridge
It's funny because the Gravemind only discovered that Cortana contained the Index to activate a Halo ring when Chief found her, and she showed that she had it.
humble yacht
more likely that he was enjoying messing with him at that time because he thought he could afford to
warm ridge
Judging from what the Gravemind told Chief before he saved Cortana, I honestly think he was willing to let him go.
last anchor
This is still going?
humble yacht
all he said was "child of my enemy, why have you come? I offer no forgiveness... a father's sins pass to his son"
then "of course, you came for her. We exist together now: two corpses in one grave"
neither comment suggests a willingness to let him go if he chickened out and turned around
warm ridge
Judging from the fact that a functioning and working Pelican was still right there, along with the fact that he made the route that lead directly to there yes, I honestly think he was.
humble yacht
except by the time chief sees that, he's actively trying to kill him
warm ridge
2 routes, leave and chicken out, or go and save Cortana.
humble yacht
and he likely expected that Chief would not attempt to run; he was even taunting chief in a way that would promote him continuing on deeper
"And yet, perhaps some part of her.... remains"
warm ridge
again..I already told you he clearly wasn't actively trying to really "kill him". If he was, the amount of Flood forms seen when he's trying to leave would've been the amount of Flood forms seen when he wasn't.
humble yacht
kill him after playing with him for awhile but still planning to kill him
again, pride
the gravemind is not a fan of killing quickly, as we've seen many a time
he savors the torturing and anguish of his victims
in chief's case, it was an emotional torment in conjunction with physical danger
warm ridge
Obviously, but he also savors letting victims go to tell them about the Flood and why they should be feared.
Or even why they should be "exteriminated" so they go against the Mantle of resposibility.
warm ridge
how he let various different Forerunners go without actually killing them or even infecting them.
Ur-Didact being the most famous one but yeah.
humble yacht
they all served a purpose of sowing further discontent in the ecumene
compounding their physical extinction with infighting to make it a more terrible fall
warm ridge
again, going off your logic, he should've never let any of them go and just torture/kill them instead.
humble yacht
basically, salting the wound
also that was at a time when the Flood's power spanned almost the entire galaxy
there wasn't really anywhere to run
warm ridge
I mean he was already torturing Chief by using Cortana's voice, you know that right?
again, allowing him to have the option to leave if he wanted to.
warm ridge
yes dude lol
humble yacht
where did Cortana-Gravemind offer him to leave?
warm ridge
again, functioning working pelican.
basically pointiing him and giving him 2 routes to go.
humble yacht
that's not an offer to leave, omg
warm ridge
leave, or go deeper and get cortana.
humble yacht
everyone knows Chief would never have even considered leaving before getting Cortana
even Gravemind knew that
it was, at most, an empty offer
warm ridge
of course, but that doesn't mean the Gravemind won't give him the option.
humble yacht
i bet if Chief had actually made for the Pelican, something would have stopped him
not counting individual gameplay option to walk over to it and try to get in it
warm ridge
highly doubt that, considering in past events he let many individuals leave without being infected. Tortured yes, but not infected.
humble yacht
obviously canonically, chief doesn't use it
those individuals served purpose
letting chief leave wouldn't have served a purpose
warm ridge
those individuals served no purpose beyond forcing the Forerunners to further go against the Mantle.
humble yacht
that's a pretty important purpose
esp when your goal is to inflict as much distress on your enemy as possible before finally ending them
warm ridge
letting Chief leave would've also served a purpose to "go against the mantle", because instead of saving life, it would've resulted the opportunity for Chief to abandon/exterminate said life the moment something went wrong.
Mantle is about saving, not abandoning and leaving it defenseless, or even forcing it to give up it's weapons.
humble yacht
If he hadn't done all that psychological stuff, then the surviving forerunners wouldn't have felt unworthy and could have easily felt entitled to rebuilding their empire instead of going into exile
warm ridge
The surviving Forerunners only felt unworthy once they committed the ultimate sin to there entire life style. Exterminate the entire Galaxy that was full of life in order to get rid of one enemy.
Remember, the Mantle is not about exterminating, it's about finding other options that allow beings to coexist with one another if possible.
humble yacht
but what led them to that result was the ineffectiveness of everything else
which was in large part due to the discord sown in their own ranks thanks to the Flood
warm ridge
As I already stated, if Chief decided to leave, it would've failed one of the Precursors test of "saving". I don't really know if the Precursors judge smart A.I's as living beings or not tbh.
humble yacht
where are you getting your definition of the Mantle, btw?
because it sounds largely influenced by your own expectations
not necessarily how it's been described in the canon
warm ridge
warm ridge
what do you mean?
humble yacht
specifically
Remember, the Mantle is not about exterminating, it's about finding other options that allow beings to coexist with one another if possible.
warm ridge
"The core tenet of the Forerunners' belief in the Mantle was that the most developed species should hold stewardship over all other life. In theory, the Mantle allowed competition and conflict as long as this did not threaten biodiversity in the galaxy"
humble yacht
that's not even in the section describing the Precursor's philosophy
I see, you're just framing the philosophy in a more positive light
warm ridge
"The Precursors' views and practices regarding the Mantle were significantly more holistic than those the Forerunners subscribed to. The Precursors believed that the universe itself was an animate entity on a vastly different scale and nature than organic beings; the foundation of neural physics."
humble yacht
yes i read the entry, thank you
warm ridge
alright
humble yacht
should put that in quotes
warm ridge
I tend to argue with individuals who like to say "please point out this exact phrase, exact sentence for me" so I do it a lot.
humble yacht
don't want to plagiarize, after all
warm ridge
not saying your one of them, but I'm just used to it that's all.
versed helm
It can be a little over-the-top to just sorta spam out Halopedia quotes.
warm ridge
oh trust me this is nothing compared to what I'm usually doing lol
versed helm
I mean, Halopedia itself is kinda an amalgamation of sourced info - I'm personally partial to checking the sources of a given Halopedia passage
humble yacht
i just didn't want people to think he came up with that text himself
since i recognized it as being from halopedia
lack of quotes was my only issue
versed helm
I was just talking generally, chiiiillll
warm ridge
yea I tend to quote everything best I can. That last paragraph I forgot to.
humble yacht
but yes, in general, might be better in convo to summarize and just say "this source says this" in your own words, until someone asks for the direct source material
though ultimately, that just comes down to preference of how convos flow
warm ridge
I make sure to always post the source 1st before I start quoting things typically, otherwise it's from my own words.
humble yacht
it's not a crime to copy paste large quote blocks
nothing wrong with your own words
if anything, if you can put canon into your own words, it shows better understanding than just quoting someone else's interpretation
versed helm
Christ I'm getting uni flashbacks
humble yacht
uni was good for something
versed helm
Academic integrity intensifies
warm ridge
all I can say is the Flood aren't trying to exterminate the entire Human species. If they were, I see no reason as to why they wouldn't of done so already. From my point of view they were also trying to drive the Forerunners out of the galaxy itself rather then exterminate there entire species to. A sort of "sweet revenge" from how the Forerunners did exactly this to them thousands of years ago.
versed helm
Judging from some of the Gravemind's quotes in Halo 3 it's pretty evident that what he's after is to unify all sentient life.
He sees everyone as tormented by their individuality and wants to release everyone. Go figure.
Or at least, that was one way he phrased his objective.
humble yacht
I would have agreed with you about pre-Bear flood, Looters
warm ridge
I wouldn't state that, but if none of the creations the Precursors made in the Milky Way galaxy are capable of up holding the mantle, I see no reason as to why they wouldn't assimilate all sentient life in said galaxy and start over from the beginning.
humble yacht
but not post-Bear flood
post-Bear flood has specifically indidcated that they want all life to be combined in one painful, tortured mass for all eternity
versed helm
Well, it's the same end goal.
versed helm
He made it sound altruistic in Halo 3, I'm certain - unless that was just him trying to be convincing.
humble yacht
there was no reason at that point to lie
it's not like Chief could have turned off the ring
warm ridge
The Flood is always trying to sound convincing, especially when it comes to assimilating you into it's ranks.
versed helm
Then again, perhaps the true spectrum of his reasoning is Cthulu-esque. Flexible. We can't understand the depth of its desires so it just kinda says what sounds good.
humble yacht
i think those lines we hear while Chief is escaping the control room are the most sincere the Gravemind has ever been
which is saying something
for a pathological liar
slash master manipulator
then again, that was pre-Bear flood...
warm ridge
It's because the Flood knows it can't be defeated. If all Flood in the galaxy is exterminated, it wlll pop up again, whether through more Precursor creations from other galaxies or the possible theory that more Flood are waiting outside of the galaxy.
versed helm
Once again, I find myself in the situation of feeling as if the pre-Bear post-Bear distinction you're so preoccupied with isn't so stark, Chimera.
versed helm
The events of the Forerunner trilogy are quite hazy, for one.
mossy finch
I doubt the precursors have that kind of ability to just make flood appear, and I doubt the flood have left the Galaxy as well.
versed helm
And for two, I mean, for all we know the Primordial's desire for revenge is just a small facet of the Flood's being. And his desire for revenge goes hand-in-hand with the clear objective they've always had.
humble yacht
but clear enough to cite vengeance as a primary reason for the flood's actions
versed helm
Of course, when the time actually comes to re-read the Forerunner trilogy as I'm always saying I will I get distracted by cool stuff.
Like coilguns and pelicans
So the haziness of the Forerunner trilogy may only be my own memories of it xD
warm ridge
@mossy finch Judging from the fact that the Precursors are the originators of all life that we see in the Halo universe, and are said to be in other galaxies, yes, they definitely have the ability to re-create the Flood again if needed.
humble yacht
assuming they are still in a position to be able to
warm ridge
they highly likely are and are just watching the events happening in the Milky Way unfold to be honest lol.
versed helm
Well, that's hard to know.
warm ridge
of course that's speculation at that point, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were.
versed helm
I believe the term "slaughter" has been use to describe the Forerunner/Precursor conflict.
humble yacht
or, the Forerunner's defeat of them was effective to the extent where their ability to directly influence the galaxy no longer exists
outside of the Flood
versed helm
So it is entirely possible that some weapon was deployed which destroyed them in their entirety.
warm ridge
@versed helm The Forerunners only killed the organic bodies of Precursors in the Milky Way galaxy, other Precursors in other galaxies also exist.
Not only that, killing a Precursors organic form doesn't necessarily kill it at all. It can come back at any time if it wishes to do so.
versed helm
Those interpretations of the solid lore we have are ones that I am familiar with.
humble yacht
except that we don't know what the Forerunners did to "kill" them
versed helm
Precisely what I was about to say.
humble yacht
we only know of one case
versed helm
The recollections of that conflict do tend to emphasize the Precursor's total destruction.
If I am not mistkaen.
humble yacht
the Primordial was killed in an accelerated time sphere
warm ridge
we kinda do though. They used the Forerunner ships, and basically shot at them as standard warfare would follow.
humble yacht
i dunno
mossy finch
Ya all grave minds share the memory's of all past grave minds.
humble yacht
doesn't actually state that they used conventional ship warfare
warm ridge
"According to the Gravemind, the Precursors did not defend themselves and simply marveled at the sheer violence the Forerunners were capable of"
humble yacht
just says they hunted them to near extinciton
versed helm
I have no doubt that conventional warfare was involved.
But that article paints a pretty grim picture for your interpretation, Person.
Specifically relating to all these Precursors you believe survived.
warm ridge
"relating to all these Precursors you believe survived"
You do realize it's only talking about Precursors in the Milky Way galaxy..Right?
and the Path Kethona satellite galaxy to the Milky Way.
versed helm
There may not have been notable numbers of Precursors outside the galaxy at the time.
humble yacht
I mean, the Gravemind claiming the Precursors didn't defend themselves could be taken as
- the precursors didn't care because they couldn't actually be hurt
- the precursors were so shocked they they couldn't respond, meaning the Forerunners essentially killed unarmed combatants/civilians
i think 2 is more where the Gravemind was going