I wish it had gone somewhere
#lore-and-universe
limpid meadow
versed helm
She's easy to hate without being real familiar with what insurrection lore exists
limpid meadow
But it's just there
remote spruce
we need a short story where Big Maggie is in her deathbed and she's like "i blamed halsey for everything because it made me feel better"
limpid meadow
And ONI trying to turn people against Halsey makes sense
versed helm
And the truth of the matter is, even if we don't headcanon in a more balanced conflict, a bunch of bad apples stewed over a few generations and decided they hated Earth for no reason.
Then they went to suicide bombing.
stoic hamlet
It was taxes
limpid meadow
But there's no subtlety, there's no narrative purpose, it just "is"
versed helm
Innies are despicable, and Halsey's actions are completely justified by how they're framed.
stoic hamlet
Like we’ve seen colonies are quasi independent
versed helm
A few kids sacrificed to save the potential billion that might die in full-scale civil war.
limpid meadow
I don't think it's that clear cut, @versed helm
But that's what great about it, we can debate it
Kilo-5 robs people of that debate
versed helm
I feel as if a lot of perspectives aren't canonically supported because of the way the lore directly relating to the Spartan program is phrased.
stoic hamlet
They’re more like protectorates than one single government.
remote spruce
it was actually the Librarian's fault
limpid meadow
/r/technicallythetruth
versed helm
Without the Spartan program, all the UEG's intelligence said civil war was imminent and unavoidable.
remote spruce
or as Cortana says, the coin did it
versed helm
The Spartan program represented decisive action to end that war before it began.
stoic hamlet
It would have happened anyways
limpid meadow
Intelligence isn't always accurate.
versed helm
It's rational and still more morally sound than the innies' tactics.
versed helm
Yeah, it's neat.
stoic hamlet
Silent Storm and Contact Harvest shows it was a meat grinder even without Spartans
remote spruce
the Carver findings was weird
limpid meadow
"It was the formula's fault!"
stoic hamlet
UNSC policies were brutal and draconian, but Innies were ruthless and fanatic
There was literally no way it could have ended without war
versed helm
They've also been corroborated by two pro-Earth savants who went on to arguably share a great degree of responsibility in stopping the Covenant - Cole and Halsey.
It's pretty hard to argue against 'em.
Especially given Cole was evidently balanced enough to overlook his politics for the sake of love and Halsey is an insanely brainy genius who is clearly not without some moral compass.
stoic hamlet
Like, the biggest issue, at least the spark, was that the UNSC jumped in thinking things were a lot worse than they were, and because of that they became worse than they were initially.
They often seem to overreact and don’t take half measures
limpid meadow
"I say we nuke the colony from orbit" - UNSC probably
gilded mason
RIP Far Isle
stoic hamlet
Well they sent in preteen super soldiers to kill Innies on Mamore
Twice
versed helm
The way I envision Far Isle is that it declared independence and a state of open war, and the UNSC responded in accordance with that state of open war for the sake of an example.
stoic hamlet
Mhm
versed helm
A UNSC favouring perspective on Far Isle would be a wild kill or be killed situation, an innie favouring one would be a nuke-happy UNSC officer. I'd really like to know more about it, though - and some of the engagements Johnson was in during the insurrection. Engagements involving drone-delivered ordnance and armoured personnel carriers.
Very interesting flashback stuff from CH
remote spruce
UNSC propaganda would be like "they had nukes so we launched nukes"
limpid meadow
I'd really like to know more about it, though
I both agree and disagree
I enjoy the speculation and discussion the lack of information brings, but I also would love to know what happened to make the UNSC decide to raze the colony
Eh, who am I kidding, I want to know.
stoic hamlet
But the point still stands.
When Mamore rebelled (like, fully rebelled, if the Spartan Field Manual is to be believed, the military and locals joined in) the UNSC sent in the III’s, presumably with orders to kill anyone that saw them, to preserve program secrecy.
The UNSC are incredibly draconian, but they’re not entirely wrong to be so.
They just get carried away.
versed helm
It seems a tad out of character, given that the UNSC was predominately interested in controlling colonies and not destroying them.
remote spruce
innie groups have cool stuff i guess
versed helm
Like, the most sensible core driving force for the insurrection is Earth's perceived pilfering of colonial resources, right?
So why nuke all those resources
stoic hamlet
Man, that would suck to be an Innie on Mamore when the Alphas came down.
I wonder if it was like, open battles or stealth stuff?
stoic hamlet
Aye.
But yeah, the UNSC have demonstrated they’re willing to commit some heinous acts if it cowes people into ceasing their insurgency.
The POW orders, for example.
remote spruce
?
stoic hamlet
Where a UNSC trooper can execute a prisoner interfering with the guard detail.
stoic hamlet
Silent Storm
remote spruce
nice, uh from a lore standpoint
stoic hamlet
I mean it’s a great way of showing why Innies might kill themselves instead of be taken prisoner.
And why they hate the UNSC
considering I can see that order being abused a lot
Like, look at how easily you have people (though usually a minority) advocating for lynchings and brutal torture of “monsters”, I.E Child Molesters, Mass Murderers, etc.
Because these people have been vilified (not necessarily wrongly, to be clear) some people don’t want to follow the laws and just enact mob justice.
And think about how easy that would be for a UNSC trooper to just flat out execute someone because they were angry or what have you. You could sweep that under the rug easily.
limpid meadow
It's truly terrifying
stoic hamlet
I’m glad we’re getting stuff like that though
Stuff that makes both sides grey.
Before the UNSC was grey in the sense that they used Spartans, but they were never really noted as being overtly cruel to Innies.
Whereas the Innies were usually all vilified.
Now we’re seeing a lot more morally complex Insurrectionists which is nice.
gilded mason
Yeah
stoic hamlet
Like, Coles wife, that Marine General in Silent Storm, the NCA, etc
Most didn’t know
Only the top three
gilded mason
Just the three heirarchs knew
limpid meadow
More than them knew
gilded mason
Oh?
limpid meadow
I think "The Return" and "Broken Circle" makes that clear
Not initially no, but by the end of the war
stoic hamlet
Yeah
gilded mason
I thought he was talking about during the war
limpid meadow
I didn't realize you meant initially
stoic hamlet
That was my thought as well
During the war most didn’t know
Post war more knew
IIRC they didn’t necessarily keep their faith, but they adjusted it
So they still believed, but they had to adapt to make it fit the knowledge
gilded mason
"Welp, seems ascendance is a bit less all-encompassing."
stoic hamlet
They believed humans were unworthy of the great journey and so had been left behind.
As the Prophets believed the Forerunners had basically gone to heaven, so to see a species that was related to them, seemingly as important as them, not in said heaven, the Prophets had to change their religion slightly.
Well, their beliefs, not necessarily the entire religion
Because it would destroy the Covenant and they would lose their power
gilded mason
Because they didn't want that Reclaimer thing getting out
stoic hamlet
^^^
It would be a civil war
Probably worse than how the Schism actually happened in canon.
Because it wouldn’t be as clear cut as “Brutes v Elites” (which is itself not entirely accurate)
It would be like how Rome often had civil wars, with Legionnaires fighting other Legionnaires.
gilded mason
Yeah but what about before they learnt it though?
They were still in initial contact before then.
stoic hamlet
They did actually attempt peaceful first contact, well, sort of
gilded mason
With some light fighting or something
stoic hamlet
Skirmishing
Mainly by Jackal Privateers
But there was initially discussions of open diplomatic talks
Before the Prophets learned about the whole “Reclaimers” thing
stable schooner
Oof heats about potential deadlier Great Schism, cries again about Regret getting assassinated.
gilded mason
It'd be a neat 'What-if'.
versed helm
What do you think
stoic hamlet
Are you asking if Spartans go rogue or become rampant?
versed helm
Taking into account the age of CE as a game
stoic hamlet
^
Bungie’s original intention was for John and the Spartans to be more machine than man, and not in their mannerisms
stiff scarab
Wasnt there a halo legends anime short story that had rogue young Spartans fleeing the unsc only to realize they were replaced by clones?
Is that canon?
gilded mason
Homecoming. And yes.
stiff scarab
Neato and thanks @gilded mason
last anchor
Most but not all the S II candidates were replaced with flash clones. Some like Serin Osman were whisked away without issue as their parents wouldn’t notice. Some did, like Naiomis father and Aurthers
gilded mason
like Naiomis father
Not sure why ONI kidnapped her in broad daylight and then didn't even replace her for ten hours after securing her.
gilded mason
True. Though I'm confused why they did it during the day for her as well.
stoic hamlet
Random thing, I don’t consider it canon, but the way they portrayed her kidnapping on the animated Fall of Reach was hilarious
IIRC they had her playing with a ball, losing the ball, and when she chased after it an ONI agent grabbed her and threw her into a white van.
Like, it wasn’t even subtle
gilded mason
lol
gilded mason
What?
stoic hamlet
The original concept was a Spartan was a massively augmented cyborg.
They still kind of are (technically every UNSC servicemember is) but they’re much more human in appearance.
Where’s originally they were more grotesque.
Yes
Rampancy was a thing in The Fall of Reach
But the phrase Cortana uses could simply just mean rogue.
last anchor
Rampancy as an idea for AIs has been around since Marathon
humble yacht
Yeah but rampancy in Halo and rampancy in Marathon are different now
carmine sleet
I love the joke Grim made about Halopedia
last anchor
We're getting called out yo
Also does anyone know how much the Ultimate edition costs?
obsidian thistle
I noticed. XD Least be said he expected me coming right at him with a question lol
humble yacht
@last anchor $80. though you get it automatically with Gamepass Ult
last anchor
Okay, thats not bad at all.
I dont really wanna get Gamepass Ult just yet, so I'll probably just buy the game as it stands
I know this is cross promotion but I am really REALLY sad they didn't at least hint that this could be canon.
stoic hamlet
We already have time travel that no one wants to revisit, parallel universes would be stretching it.
obsidian thistle
Ye know this doesnt confirm parallel universes right. XD
"Seems like there’s a piece of very old technology embedded within the asteroid – we’re not sure if it’s Forerunner or something else entirely, but it does seem to act as some sort of gateway to… somewhere else."
This could just be a portal to another place.
Which we do know is possible in a weird way.
And a side note
obsidian thistle
The transmission doesnt say that does it. ;)
stoic hamlet
.....
Hmmmm
True
It’s possible it’s a planet or area with just locust doods, but no Serans
obsidian thistle
Closest we get is the transmission subject. But there has been "smart" names in the past.
All the transmission says is
"Initial exploratory probes yielded evidence of an unknown life form – it’s not Covenant, but it's sure as hell still hostile."
Which means that if this was canon. We have no idea what this minor threat is.
obsidian thistle
It could be meddlers ;)
stoic hamlet
A Forerunner portal?
obsidian thistle
Old Meddler technology.
stoic hamlet
Hmm, now that would be interesting
versed helm
Not meaning to be a downer
But stepping back to take a look at the flavour context of the information we've been given
I'd give it about a 0.5% chance of being not something directly related to the Gears of War universe.
It is almost certainly Locust - tbh, this whole thing seems to be a minor way of nudging Halo lore fans in the direction of a new universe we might enjoy, and the allusions of the text reflect that.
Though they're not still called Locust anymore, are they? Just The Swarm, right?
humble yacht
They are the Swarm, but Gears 4 revealed they're direct descendants of the Locust
versed helm
Fair enough. For some reason I thought that because they're not as preoccupied with coming up from under the ground and stuff the name Locust wasn't as fitting anymore
Before I realized locusts in real life have nothing to do with anything subterranean anyway
obsidian thistle
Ye know if we look at it. Ignoring all outside stuff. The lore does work. Nothing screams Gears stuff untill we start adding outside context.
Thankfully you dont need to look at it that way xD
versed helm
I mean, as a fan of the Halo universe it's my hobby to look at it from any direction.
I just don't really think your tenacity in this respect is justified. I mean, for one, Grim's words clearly alluded to the whole lore section of the article.
And second, Halo's lore does have a fair bit invested in potential alternate-dimension shenanigans
humble yacht
I'm hoping that his gratuitous use of emoticons signifies that he's being facetious
versed helm
I mean, I don't why you'd hope that, his words are very sound.
This shouldn't be treated as canon.
Though there's no reason why shouldn't be on Halopedia at all 🤷
It's not like he said "keep this off Halopedia no matter what"
Halopedia has non-canon stuff
But anyway
humble yacht
I'm talking more about the way they're trying to weave it into the canon despite Grim saying it's not
versed helm
Wouldn't be out of character.
Some people are just canon machines.
I admire the tenacity.
That's the only fitting adjective I can think of xD
vivid dust
So I just realized something
When Rtas says to the Arbiter "These are my Elites. Their lives matter to me, yours does not." and he responds "That makes two of us.", well I always thought he also meant the Elites' lives matter to him, but not Rtas'
but he's talking about himself
I'm dumb
carmine sleet
No, you're not the only one to think that, I thought Arbiter was talking about Rtas' like that at first
vivid dust
he was one sad boi
gilded mason
I think he does after that one Halo 5 mission. At least until the Created screw things up.
fleet wraith
The problem with sanghelios is the problem with going to war with insurgents. Even if you squash one group there'll be more that believe in a different ideal from his.
stable schooner
@vivid dust won’t lie thought that to until a couple years ago
gilded mason
Yeah, that's the issue with free will, eh?
fleet wraith
Plus ONI purposefully sparks and encourages insurgent groups on sanghelios to rebel against the arbiter
Yeah
versed helm
Well, they did
Presumably those efforts were toned down once Jul's Covenant actually started making a real foothold.
fleet wraith
The ditact was onto something with the whole putting souls into robo bodies and stuff
Yes but you seriously don't think they continued right after
Probably encouraged other groups to attack juls covenant
versed helm
Well, here's a question.
What do you think would happen if Thel and all those close to him were assassinated?
carmine sleet
Are you asking for in the real world or in universe?
versed helm
You're missing the point.
fleet wraith
They want constant war on sanghelios
carmine sleet
Also, ONI only wanted to assassinate Arby before he became the Arbiter during the war
versed helm
I'm saying that Thel was the only thing that prevented the Elites from glassing Earth in 2552
He represents almost singularly all the goodwill Sangheili have for humanity
fleet wraith
Not really. They want constant war on sanghelios to keep either group, and on a larger scale, the whole species, to not progress to anywhere near their pre schism strength
gilded mason
...So the solution is to weaken his hold on things?
fleet wraith
You have to remember this is ONI we're talking about
versed helm
If we was ever to be taken out of the picture and some maniac took control of a unit Sangheili Empire, humanity would be in trouble. That's ONI's thinking.
gilded mason
Good thing that didn't happen
fleet wraith
They're not about good will, they're about playing the dirty cards to make sure humanity wins no matter the cost.
gilded mason
Regarding the latter
versed helm
That's the point I'm illustrating, Vladdy.
versed helm
I never said they did
I'm saying... ahh, forget it.
If you want to understand you will.
gilded mason
Of course, ONI had no idea if it was true before starting their Kilo-5 thing
versed helm
Anyway, I'm not saying it's the most morally copacetic or even optimal approach to the situation from my point of view.
But as a general rule, if you are a human (and despite some of 343's characterization), it's immature to make out that ONI are outright villainous.
fleet wraith
They're not
versed helm
Everything from SPARTAN II to Kilo 5's ops have been cold cost-benefit decision making in the interests of our species.
fleet wraith
Yeah and I never said anything to refute that
versed helm
And the truth is, the cost-beneficial option is almost always the moral one.
The value of life is so great as to be limitless, so the only way to be just is to measure numerically with the context of intent.
Just a little morality rant for ya there.
gilded mason
Kilo 5's ops have been cold cost-benefit decision making
Let's not go that far. If that was true, they wouldn't have attempted it before learning basically anything about the cultures on Sanghelios. Or heck, considering the fact that the Covenant is more than just that one planet.
fleet wraith
The most beneficial option is almost never the most moral one when it comes to the halo books
Just look at the spartan 3 program
Yeah it was extremely beneficial and humanity survived because of it and they threw two hard punches at the covenant with alpha and beta company but its not moral
Kilo-5 ran beneficial ops to humanity but it wasnt moral to go against their allies and be responsible for their deaths
versed helm
I think it's fairly evident, Ostral, that all the cultures that matter are highly armed and always on the precipice of having a relapse into Covenant thinking.
That is, if they're not under the Arbiter's heel. As as we said above, who knows what happens on that front if the Arbiter was to die of anything from assassination to falling down some stairs on his own
gilded mason
The one that actually posed an issue was one that didn't even have any way of fighting before Kilo-5 gave them all of their weapons.
versed helm
I mean, the Sangheili never really knew about Kilo-5's S-stirring, in any widespread sense. It may as well not have happened and they're still in a constant state of direct confrontation with humanity.
Could it be possible that stirring conflict between Sangheili had a favourable effect on humanity's clashes with fanatic groups?
Which would be the desired effect.
I mean, if you pre-suppose groups that were a threat to humanity would come into existence in any eventuality.
gilded mason
I mean, the Sangheili never really knew about Kilo-5's S-stirring, in any widespread sense. It may as well not have happened and they're still in a constant state of direct confrontation with humanity.
For all we know, without Kilo-5 erupting things like that, Thel would've handled things in a more controlled manner.
versed helm
I can empathize with the mindset that errs on the side of cynicism when it comes to Sangheili internal affairs.
gilded mason
It wouldn't really make sense considering the scale of Sangheili. Either let Thel and his associates handle it, for good or ill, or get involved yourself. If you do the former, at least there's a chance things will go smoothly, but with the latter, things will get more violent no matter what.
versed helm
And ONI might have had intelligence to indicate that violence is guaranteed either way, and that pre-emptive action tilts the odds in our favour.
gilded mason
And ONI might have had intelligence to indicate that violence is guaranteed either way
They admitted they didn't
They said they were flying basically entirely blind
versed helm
I feel as if you may be extrapolating that admission, given the somewhat tangential nature of where our discussion has led us
Not a lot of solid ground here
gilded mason
Not sure what you mean there.
versed helm
Well, first off, I'll admit by saying I haven't read the Kilo-5 books in a long while and I have no compulsion to.
But I don't remember a specific instance were Kilo-5 realized they had no idea about Sangheili culture or what they were doing.
I remember a sort of grim, calculated intent.
And even if such a moment did occur, I'd probably need it to be directly pointed out to me for to understand the perspective that ONI had no reason to think the way they did.
Parangosky was at the helm. It's against how I understand her to be characterized.
gilded mason
It was near the beginning. They were saying all they knew of Sanghelios was some of Vadam from Hood's visit there.
versed helm
Maybe you don't need to have such a delicate understanding of the nature of what's going on in the politics of Sangheilios to understand what motivates a lot of post-Covenant splinter groups, and having seen the kind of butchery Sangheili are capable of, maybe that's sufficient justification for action in the eyes of ONI.
I don't really agree with the point that ONI's lack of intimate knowledge of the Sangheilios environment means they didn't have something to go off.
I mean, you could even argue that our experiences during the war were enough to go off.
gilded mason
Eh, I don't buy it.
versed helm
But you do buy that Parangosky made a stupid decision.
versed helm
🤷 Fair enough, I suppose. But I do think it's extraordinarily optimistic to believe that the Arbiter could have just quietly "managed" dissident factions. Or, more accurately, would have.
gilded mason
It'd be less risky that way.
versed helm
It's easy to conceive of a situation where the Sangheili don't execute their beef with one another, but rather Covenant splinter groups all gang up on humanity while Thel takes his time rebuilding Sanghelios.
gilded mason
If it doesn't work, then yeah there's fighting, but ONI was planning on that anyway
versed helm
A Sangheili civil conflict was bound to draw in and tie up loose elements that might've had their own agenda, the way I see it.
gilded mason
Though of course, this is only taking place on Sanghelios. A single planet.
versed helm
I understand that the Sangheili population is more evenly spread than humanity, but a birthworld is a birthworld.
There's bound to be a lot tied up there.
gilded mason
Sure, though even a backwater world like Hesduros was able to be a huge war machine for Jul's purposes. A purpose that likely wouldn't have gone very far without ONI's interference.
versed helm
I have a question
stoic hamlet
Shoot
stoic hamlet
They don’t exist anymore, at least in their current forms
obsidian thistle
They kinda evolved into ONI essentially. Thats the very tldr version.
versed helm
Rip
versed helm
So basically, no more NHL ;c
dreamy terrace
If we was ever to be taken out of the picture and some maniac took control of a unit Sangheili Empire, humanity would be in trouble. That's ONI's thinking.
The problem with that thinking is that it was a giant assumption based on little availible intel of any kind, and would be strictly impossible for anyone to actually pull off given how politics on Sanghelios and throughout the greater ex-Covenant sphere works. They built their project on nothing but guesswork that imagined a scenario that was very unlikely to happen.
dreamy terrace
If anyone believes that Thel is a necessary component to the altering political currents on Sanghelios and abroad, then several elements of Covenant politics have been missed. Thel is merely a product of these changes. Remove him from the picture, he gets martyred , another would take his place, and the zietgeist that brought down the Hierarchs woudl continue.
last anchor
He’s got subordinates who would take over
A martyr is more valuable sometimes than a leader
fallow quest
Thel is important enough that he forgave the UNSC and pardoned Gray Team for the destruction of Glyke. Anyone else would've ended the alliance between the SoS and UEG. I don't think any subordinate would have his understanding after being told of Glyke's destruction. Most would snap knowing billions of innocent Sangheili were killed by the UNSC and even more egregious by Spartans.
I don't even know if Rtas' would forgive and pardon after that.
stoic hamlet
I mean
“Innocent” is relative here
Thel is, by all logic, also a war criminal, Moreso than Grey team.
stable schooner
This is the same species that had been committing Genocide for decades lol. Thel has the blood of at Least hundreds of millions on his hands.
stoic hamlet
Billons, most likely
strong sage
The way i see it , its even between both sides thou
stoic hamlet
Not really.
Both sides (SoS mainly) post war have decided to just sort of sweep their respective war crimes under the rug.
But the Covenant and Sangheili were definitely the worse of the two.
Considering the UNSC only retaliated, whereas the Covenant and Sangheili was all totally cool with butchering civilians and treating people like cattle.
strong sage
Was there any particular sangheili who felt remorse or disgusted on the genocide against humans fam?
feral perch
I think both of those descriptors are too strong.
Maybe something approaching 'regret' for the wasted time and resources.
Most Sangheili were more upset and bitter over being lied to by the Prophets for so long, rather than remorseful over killing humans.
versed helm
They seem to feel pretty sorry for themselves more than anyone, yeah.
stable schooner
So why was their Marine prisoners on High Charity
carmine sleet
Likely so that if Miranda or Johnson were killed before they could activate the Index, they had spares that could activate the ring
humble yacht
At the time there were Marine prisoners on HC, the Elites were just starting to lose face within the Covenant, but it's not like they were at large becoming sympathetic to humanity. They were still loyal to the Covenant cause and still saw humanity as a religious enemy. Once the Prophets' betrayal became widely known and the truth about the Halos spread by the Arbiter, then we saw Elites looking at humans in a different light.
I think Lord Hood's feelings on Elites are similar to Elites feelings towards humanity. "I remember how this war started. What your kind did to mine. I can't forgive you. But... you have my thanks."
so less remorse and more willingness to move forward together
stable schooner
@carmine sleet yeah but to take them to High Charity and leave them there while they took Miranda, Johnson, Banks and Stacker just seems like why keep them alive still and why do you need that many spares.
carmine sleet
Why take them all at once and risk them all getting killed? Better to keep some just in case
stable schooner
They don’t plan on returning though
humble yacht
I'm sure the prophets had a multitude of nefarious reasons to hold onto some extra humans
stable schooner
All makes me wonder where they even got the 5 Marines. We never see other Covenant UNSC engagements other then in the Quarantine Zone without the Masterchief. Makes me wonder how long they had the marines
humble yacht
maybe we'll get a Fireteam Raven 2 one day that details the exploits of other UNSC teams on Delta Halo while Chief was out doing his thing
stable schooner
That would be pretty awesome honestly
humble yacht
it would feel more natural than the original Fireteam Raven
since the Amber made it to Delta Halo in one piece and fully battle ready
The Autumn on the other hand got its butt majorly kicked in space and yet still somehow managed to land on Alpha Halo with enough force to challenge an advanced Flood infestation and a Scarab
stable schooner
Lol true, would be cool to follow the rest of the Amberclads ODSTs as the only thing that included them after Delta Halo was cut Miranda betrayal. The story could be more ambitious since events are unknown from the UNSC perspective
limpid nexus
isnt there already one?
last anchor
Nope. We never know what happened to them other than they probably died.
Theres a comic of Johnson escaping the Alpha Halo Flood facility, Breaking Quarentine, but thats it.
limpid nexus
oh the marines
stable schooner
Lovik survived through Plot Armor until chief arrived at least
feral perch
I want a straight up novelization of Halo 2 and Halo 3
unique rune
if those ever happen
please for the love of the Forerunners fix the dialogue
last anchor
Not really much to add to it. The Flood worked well cause we saw other sides to the fight. But 2 and 3 are pretty linear.
And yes; for the love of god fix some of the dialog.
stable schooner
Halo 2 novel that focuses on the Covenant perspective during the Earth segment and the Human perspective during Delta Halo.
feral perch
That would be cool. We got Palace Hotel, so
I really want something on Penitent Tangent
stable schooner
That would be great to, anything that expands on the monitors
next delta
should i read cole protocal, essential tales, and/or contact harvest?
im reading the nylund trilogy and gonna do silent storm next
are those well written and good?
next delta
yea
fair hazel
sentinels are multipurpose too
but several sentinels are just repurposed when fighting flood
watcher sentinel um, well it's a sentinel that's designed to support mixed troops, provide reinforcements, foritfications, healing and combat support against the flood. Helping in swarm tactics against flood too
aggressor sentinels, generally useful for smaller scale infection, or better off in numbers, likely easy to produce
and multipurpose, general security too even against the flood
the enforcers, weaponry to burn the flesh and grapplers in case they get in vehicles of sorts or machinery
can you be more specific
aggressor sentinels, more useful in lower scale infection
last anchor
The bigger the infection the bigger the sentinel
fair hazel
guardian was concepted to take place on a Guardian sentinel
stable schooner
The gold Sentinel Aggressors( Cough Eliminators) don’t get enough respect. Ain’t easy containing an outbreak for thousands of years
fair hazel
EliminatorS? Not canon designation
stable schooner
Of course but it’s Halo 2 official designation for them which is why I give it a Cough.
remote spruce
Official? As in strategy guide or in-game name?
obsidian thistle
*In-game code. Which doesnt equal canon.
stable schooner
Yeah not Canon( annoys me but I understand) more like if you were doing a walkthrough it’s the name you would use. Same with Stealth Majors
stable schooner
Very True but Eliminator sounds cooler and is the actual name. I also wouldn’t just say Gold Elites
unique rune
I'm still trying to figure out where I heard them referred to as Sentinel "Captains" or something like that...
Most definitely wasn't anything official...
stable schooner
It’s their Variant name(Rank) Every Character in Halo 2-Reach has a name and variant name. Their usually the same but in this case the Eliminator is the type of Sentinel not the Rank which is Captain. So the Sentinel is the Sentinel Aggressor Eliminator And it’s Beam Sentinel Aggressor Eliminator Beam But Rank is Captain, like the Standard Sentinel Aggressors are Minors. Also Files not code( only Bungie and 343 knows what that says)
versed helm
Was thinking about this and wanna see what you guys think. In Silentium, the Librarian hypothesizes of infinite realities. Do you like the idea of a multiverse in Halo?
gilded mason
Isn't that already true with them using vacuum energy to take energy from them.
Vacuum energy originates from the beginnings of infinite numbers of alternate realities. When harnessed for power supply, these fledgling universes are drained of energy in their infancy, resulting in their premature deaths
carmine sleet
As someone who loves the multiverse concept, I would love to see something explore that, Redemption
last anchor
Its certainly a grim thought
versed helm
May just be me, but not a big fan of multiverses in fiction
stable schooner
So how many Spartan 4s do you guys think died on Requiem?
static trench
Who were the spartans that died on Reach on Lone Wolf?
stable schooner
Anyone else feel like the Reach Era Zealots serve no purpose? Like why weren’t they sent to get the Icon or end a Rebellion that threatens the religious unity of the Covenant. A lot of Covenant ranks that do the same things these days.
radiant sphinx
@stable schooner I’m not the most knowledgeable in the lore, but as far as I know I believe Zealots were deployed in any operation involving the possibility of of exposure to Forerunner artifacts. As we know, Reach housed the huge Forerunner ship under its surface that ONI was studying and the Covenant were able to deduce that Reach was “touched” by the Forerunners
stable schooner
So why not go after the Index/Sacred Icon. The literal key to the Great Journey
radiant sphinx
That was the ultimate goal of the Covenant, but keep in mind this was before much about the Halo’s was known. Their campaign ultimately led them to the first Halo in CE and it wasn’t even until Halo 2 that the Covenant quietly realized its true purpose
It’s also imperative to note that non-humans can’t activate the Halos
stable schooner
They knew the purpose of the Index in Halo 2 by that point.
gilded mason
It’s also imperative to note that non-humans can’t activate the Halos
They might, with enough time and research.
radiant sphinx
It’s all about the baby steps
With conquering humanity as one of them
@gilded mason IIRC The mantle literally belongs to Humanity. Their “ancient magic” allows them to activate the rings. That’s why Miranda and Johnson were captured and forced to activate them in 2 and 3 respectively
gilded mason
It's just the Librarian's doing.
And what I meant was that it could probably be circumvented with enough effort.
stable schooner
And once they they knew about the Library they didn’t send Zealots to clear the way but Spec Ops. I think the repurposed Zealots are just redundant but that’s a lot of Reaches Ranks lol
radiant sphinx
@stable schooner You might be thinking a bit too objectively with the hindsight you have of the story. The Covenant is built on religion and thus “zealots” are religious devouts bent on accomplishing their goals. The Covenant believed it was its destiny to activate the rings and cleanse/exterminate any threat that got in their way. It’s not just a one and done situation, it’s very sacred to them.
stable schooner
Which is why it’s literally the most important mission a Reach Zealot would presumedly be sent on but they weren’t.
stable schooner
That’s a Gold Field Master I’m talking about the Reach Artifact collecting Purple Zealots
radiant sphinx
I’m assuming that just happens offscreen
stable schooner
Saying as how Chief went through the entire facility it really didn’t
radiant sphinx
I mean offscreen in the lore, not in the games themselves
stable schooner
Halo the Flood has no Reach Purple Zealots
radiant sphinx
I’m very confused about “Reach Purple Zealots”
stable schooner
Artifact Collecting/Special missions Zealots That appear in Halo Reach. Not the Gold Sword Wielding Field Masters And Fleet/Ship Masters Of Halo 1-2.
The Zealots That fought Noble Team
versed helm
not gonna lie, I love the fact that Jiralhanae serve as gardeners and cleaners for the Sangheili
remote spruce
Brutes rage when the rabbits eat the tomatoes for a third time
versed helm
lmao
just imagining one in overalls and a straw hat chasing around one of those ostrich things from Reach through a field
analog violet
Lmao I'm reading glasslands Halsey and Mendez appear to be having the equivalent of a divorce with the Spartans as the kids
stoic hamlet
They really changed Mendez’s personality. Thanks for that Traviss
gilded mason
Yeah. And made him spout wrong things just to make him look better than her.
last anchor
Least it got fixed in Legacy of Onyx
stoic hamlet
Did it? Haven’t read it in a while/kinda forgot the minute details.
cerulean sand
Im curious. Does anyone know what race crashed that ship that is shown in terminal 5 in CE Anniversary?
carmine sleet
No, but many have called them "Meddlers"
fair hazel
No. Also keep in mind meddlers could refer to lots of different peoples
carmine sleet
Indeed, which I am more inclined to believe since we know next to nothing about all the times Meddlers have "appeared" within the lore
limpid meadow
Honestly I don't think people should be calling anyone or anything "Meddlers".
It give the impression of a single race or group, and it gives the impression of there being some kind of "intent" to meddle.
In short I find it fairly misleading.
versed helm
It's a very spooky name
stoic hamlet
I mean people call them meddlers because it’s what 343GS called them, so it makes sense to use the same term even if it’s not accurate to their intent.
last anchor
I think "meddlers" is an overarching title for just about anyone you can think of, so long as they mess with stuff on a Halo ring or break protocol
stoic hamlet
Similar to Rome and Barbarians
last anchor
Ye
obsidian thistle
Granted thats really the best description we have of most of the mystery aliens.
They meddle Forerunner installations and modern alien afairs.
The crashed aliens are not meddling aliens however.
They didnt anger Spark causing him to threaten everything that came near.
last anchor
They just crashed. Didn't do anything other than send out a distress call he blocked
abstract zealot
Around 40,000 BCE.
stoic hamlet
Could they have been one of the Covenant species pre Covenant?
gilded mason
Doubt it, Frankie on Neogaf replied to somebody asking who they were with:
Something external. Something other.
stoic hamlet
Red herring, perhaps?
gilded mason
Seems silly when he could just not reply to it at all.
carmine sleet
Agreed, it's more than likely he said that so that if 343i decide to explore them, they can
fair hazel
Other civilizations in the galaxy
carmine sleet
Potentially even an extra-galactic civilisation, although, that would be less likely than just another civilisation from within the galaxy
last anchor
I mean theres plenty of them out there. The Covenants made of a bunch and theres the Fringe
fair hazel
And we haven’t fully explored the fringe either
last anchor
I cant wait to see what comes out of it
fair hazel
hopefully something more than human prsotethic aliens
last anchor
Get Blur to do it XD
versed helm
Why was Soren so evil?
carmine sleet
Define "evil"
versed helm
He stabbed his stepfather in the neck at the age of 6 out of anger of his mother's death.
remote spruce
I mean
Who wouldn't wait oh shoo-
versed helm
Lol
versed helm
Not sure. I'm a novice of Halo Lore. I'm starting off reading Halo Evolutions. I've already beaten Halo 1-4.
stoic hamlet
I was thinking of Soren.
Caleb just hid when the Agents arrived to take him.
strong sage
Was reading Mickey’s info on halopedia , it was said that mickey killed two other spartan iv prisoners during leonidas revolt on the training station. Is there a reason why he did that?
vivid dust
he turned to the Insurrection
oh wait the Leonidas revolt, is that in Bad Blood?
Haven't read that one sorry I'm saying dumb things
versed helm
That would be the reason
strong sage
Ahhhhh , but i mean he could have like escape or help one another or something since all three of them is rogue if ya know what i mean fam i just don’t get why he have to kill em >,<
feral perch
Duuuude you need to start with The Fall of Reach @versed helm
versed helm
I'm reading the short story: Halo: Pariah, which takes place before The Fall of Reach it focuses on Soren
Trust me
It takes place after a fair bit of TFoR
TFoR encapsulates a pretty considerable span of time - the entirety of the HCW aside from its conclusion, actually, and the inception of the SII program.
My friend ordered the trilogy: TFoR, The Flood, and First Strike for my birthday (September 1st) but it won't be here until the fourth.
Yes they do have the original Xbox Logo on them
last anchor
Those are the original first edition prints
Good starting point but the rerelease changed a few things.
So, no, the Fall of Reach was NOt the first time the UNSC encountered Elites (THAT was Netherop), and you cant shove 75 children into a Pelican
gilded mason
and you cant shove 75 children into a Pelican
Not with that attitude.
limpid meadow
So, no, the Fall of Reach was NOt the first time the UNSC encountered Elites (THAT was Netherop)
Actually it was Alpha Corvi II
last anchor
Was it? Silent Storm makes it seem like the first time they ran into them was the opening battle.
Might be the first time the Spartans ran into them maybe
versed helm
It's sorta nebulous but it does give off vibes
But Collateral Damage did happen first
Technically
last anchor
Fair.
versed helm
I mean, unless you wanna take the animated series version of TFoR's story literally xD
By which I mean
last anchor
LORD NO.
No, I'll take Collateral Damage
versed helm
As canon
last anchor
Ye
Animeted TFoR is nice but boy howdy does it do some weird stuff.
Also we dont even get to the fall, its just the opening chapters.
Should have called it Blue Team IMO, still think that even now
versed helm
I mean yes
I agree thoroughly with that
TFoR was honestly a misleading name 🤷
In like, a sorta scummy sense
I personally object to it as a marketing manoeuvre moreso than Hunt the Truth
last anchor
Word
versed helm
Maybe they thought it was gonna get a sequel
last anchor
More than likely they just figured slapping the title on it would get people to notice.
I mean its..not really NOT the Fall of Reach but
proud dune
Hey does anyone wanna talk about forerunners?
feral perch
Is Collateral Damage not well thought of?
stoic hamlet
I’m not a fan of the armours introduced, or the active camo, but the story it self is okay.
obsidian thistle
I love the idea of Cobalt
At least its a name for armors. Instead of "nameless Mark IV variant number 12"
stoic hamlet
The way I’ve reconciled it is Cobalt was made in tandem with [B] and regular Mark IV, and was eventually named BLACK, then became Mark VI.
versed helm
I don't think any reconciliation is really necessary.
But that's a good way of looking at it.
I like Cobalt too, btw.
stoic hamlet
It would explain all the odd Mark VI looking armour throughout the canon
obsidian thistle
Well there is the base set.
If Mark IV(b) is anything like its Mark V decendant its a private suit.
Cobalt is experiments and stunkwork stuff.
Then there is the Legends suit which we have zero idea on its lore.
stoic hamlet
I’m saying the Legends suit was a variation of Cobalt.
At least that’s my reconciliation, to have it all make sense.
versed helm
I mean, the reason why you don't need to reconcile it is that Mark IV wasn't developed the same way as subsequent versions.
stoic hamlet
I know.
but it annoys me :p
versed helm
It was in service for by far the longest time period of any MJOLNIR variant, and we expressly know that it was constantly reworked and messed with for any number of relatively inconsequential reasons.
It's fun to have a basis for stuff, but I do think talking about "reconciling it" or "making it make sense" is misleading language given the context.
But everyone has their sticking points
Canon is subjective
fair hazel
subjective?!
versed helm
I for one refuse to accept that CEA Mark V exists and pretend that Chief on 04 looked like he did on that loot crate.
Yeah, yeah. It's super subjective.
fair hazel
no
versed helm
It's like - you can make everything fit kinda, but you need to destroy the intent of the author and have the universe be really stupid.
So individual interpretations are perfectly valid.
Everyone who contributes to the canon on an official basis clearly has their own interpretations, so why can't we?
As long as it's justifiable.
fair hazel
that's not how canon works
what is canon, is canon, we're not the ones who dictate it
why can't we? because we're not the creators
versed helm
I honestly believe that Grim might have something to say about that - the way 343 goes about handling canonical issues is throwing out really general hints that can be interpreted in a variety of ways.
343 is clearly not in the business of canonical decisiveness
And Halo is too vast and complex to be tamed at this point, and it's only gonna get vaster.
More unique perspectives contributing lore.
fair hazel
No, just no
versed helm
I mean, you think all the authors of Halo novels have a complete understanding of every bit of lore released?
fair hazel
vagueness and so on is done to not set things in some sometimes things that shouldnt be set in stone
versed helm
It's naive to think many of them know as much as we do.
stoic hamlet
I mean, I only take that viewpoint with Cobalt because Collateral Damage shows the “base” Mark IV suits being used by Blue Team with no alterations but two days later they’re given seemingly custom made suits?
You can certainly hand wave it and say ONI didn’t notice how absurd that must have cost but I mean, it really is odd.
versed helm
We hold them to a higher standard, we think about canon in a different way to them
If you have any kind of outsider knowledge on things which canon sometimes gets really, really wrong - firearms knowledge, scientific knowledge - adhering totally to the word of canon can be destructive for your immersion.
fair hazel
it happens that there are errors, and ok.
versed helm
Not to mention unresolved inconsistencies and places where authorial intent has gotten twisted.
fair hazel
there are things we dont know, mysteries an things left up in the iar
air
but doesn't make halo a, canon is subjective and not set
kind of thing
that is definitely not how halo works
maybe your own thing that you want to make
but not halo
versed helm
It's fine to pick and choose as long as you're explicit and clear about what your interpretation is, and there's some rhyme or reason to what you've done. It's fine to exclude older bits of lore that have never been de-canonized, it's fine to pick one visual interpretation over another, it's fine to come up with your own explanations.
stoic hamlet
It is subjective in certain areas
versed helm
And I'd say we're all but encouraged to do so, since 343's primary goal is to make us enjoy Halo.
fair hazel
you don't get to pick and chose, cherry pick, what you want
versed helm
Well, I would argue that Halo is a fictional universe created for my enjoyment.
And I can do whatever the hell I want with it in my head as long as I'm not being inconsiderate to other people.
fair hazel
what you think in your head, doesnt matter to what is in reality
versed helm
Which is why, when you discuss your interpretation, it should be well-founded.
I guarantee you, actually, that what you think is definitive canon is, in many instances, your own interpretation.
And that's what I'm talking about.
stoic hamlet
^^^^^^
versed helm
Fiction is subjective.
fair hazel
This. Is. Not.
How. Halo. Works
Want to write your own universe that works like that? Go ahead
that's not how halo works
versed helm
You're clearly unwilling or unable to understand the nuances of my point, friend.
Sorry for bringing it up.
fair hazel
you don't seem to understand how the canon works
stoic hamlet
🍿
versed helm
That's almost funny.
I have an extremely good idea of how canon works, and I've involved myself in its intricacies enough to know that it's never cut and dry.
Well, almost never.
There's a pecking order of what's acceptable in an interpretation.
New sources must be respected, as must major sources which characterize the universe.
You can't just say Halo 4 never happened.
Which I think you think is what I'm saying - but what I am saying is that you're perfectly entitled to ignore a bit of lore which is old and doesn't fit with newer sources, since I would say stewards of fictional universes themselves often work under the assumption that what is hazy in our memory is a looser form of canon.
Or that if you're given an explanation for something in-universe which is, frankly, utterly insubstantial (like Chief's armour change on the FuD), you're entitled to insert your own explanations.
If you actually love the spirit of the universe, you'll want to.
fair hazel
if there is a canon conflict, then there is a canon conflict and a nebulous area or canon resolution somehwere
and i may have theories and thought about stuff, but doesnt mean that thats necessairly how the canon would go
versed helm
And then the canon never goes in the direction you want to explore because it's concerned with bigger and better things, and all you're left with are inconsistencies and theories.
fair hazel
to be revisited at a later date or pending
versed helm
That's naive.
fair hazel
id like to think rho 'barutamee survived
and the text seems to hint at his survival
but did he?
unknown
versed helm
I'm telling you, if 343 were cut and dry on their canon, Halo would look a lot different in the present day.
fair hazel
343i's overall respect and most handling of the canon, again there's been some blemishes, is one of the things that makes me appreciat halo more
versed helm
The things they do with canon are often inexplicable and seemingly random, and you can't really adjust to new content without taking a laxer approach. Well, you can, but then you end up accepting nonsense which isn't in the spirit of the universe.
I mean, especially when it comes to visual canon.
In fact, the series' visuals and their internal consistency are an astoundingly apt yardstick for how concrete the canon is in general.
fair hazel
we already have explenations and so on for things
versed helm
But I'll finish off by saying that no universe is canonically cut and dry. Halo's not the odd-one-out here.
What I say pertains to the entirety of fiction. Unless it's like, a novel series written by a single meticulous author, there's gonna be an element of interpretation in there.
fair hazel
and when we don't, we don't.
versed helm
This is gonna be rich to say, but fiction is perceived differently to reality and if it's visual and expansive it's gonna be in a state of flux. Just how it is.
And the way that flux is meant to be enjoyed is with a relaxed mind and a certain desire to make your own fun.
Hard truth.
fair hazel
what is canon is canon
versed helm
And where's the definitive guide to what is canon?
How do you discern it with 100% accuracy?
The truth is that all the creatives involved have their own interpretations so it'd be impossible to iron a single steadfast canon out
I mean
They can't even decide on a steadfast canon for the real life, Christian Bible
Whaddaya think denominations are
In light of that, what chance do we have
And I mean, would it even be a good thing to have a total, absolute truth for every aspect of the Halo universe? Wouldn't that stifle the illusion for some people?
There's a kind of comfort in nebulousness
And I guarantee you that's why virtually every fictitious universe cloaks itself in it
Warfleet lore is the best kind of lore. Strong informational overtones, but plenty of interpretative wiggle room and not specific enough to trigger neckbeards.
That's the kind of lore you can base your interpretations around - the undisputed stuff. That's the strong foundations. New, high-quality stories like Silent Storms, the games, and information like that.
obsidian thistle
Canon in Halo terms is whatever 343i and MS decide it to be. For better or worse is up to you to decide.
fair hazel
CIA is good at finding hidden bits of canon
versed helm
I think every so often even he finds a bit of old lore that's like "yeah, this is probably not copacetic with what we know now".
Am I wrong?
And I bet said bit of lore has never been explicitly de-canonized either.
Whoops.
obsidian thistle
I have a small trove to still push to the public. Still trying to work out how to make said mess easy to understand in a wiki point of view first.
Oh and only 1 part of lore has been decanonised.
It was minor.
And obscure.
versed helm
Is this the Johnson immunity thing?
Oh no, can't be
Not obscure enough
I'm interested, though.
obsidian thistle
Its was the odd "Inventors of the Slipspace Drive at a beach" paragraph.
versed helm
Yikes
Well, y'know, in light of the myriad of contradictions which permeate the fringes of the Halo universe
Few if any of which have ever been decisively resolved
I say my point stands
obsidian thistle
Well canon for better or worse comes into play.
fair hazel
you know what isn't canon?
cannon, because cannon isn't a canon. But some canons are cannon
versed helm
Yeah, I would argue that's the case. Canon is an illusion.
But it doesn't change anything.
Halopedia will still collect sourced information
We'll still discuss the meaning of sources
It's all about sources
Just because fiction isn't super-duper 100% defined and undisputable in the way reality is, doesn't mean it's null and void.
I'm just expressing that I think it's more beneficial to your enjoyment to accept the subjective nature of it.
A good interpretation of a fictional universe is a lot like a well-sourced essay.
fair hazel
you can try to enjoy your, interepretation, but thats what it will be, not ncessairly what canon actually is
versed helm
It draws upon credible, recent information and reaches interesting conclusions. It doesn't dispute the obviously indisputable.
Meanwhile, the definitive canon that you profess to exist isn't what canon actually is either, because canon does not exit
Well actually, it does
But it's a spectrum
obsidian thistle
As I said "Canon in Halo terms is whatever 343i and MS decide it to be."
versed helm
It's a spectrum of respectable and less respectable sources, separated by fan judgement and a touch of guidance from Grim.
fair hazel
What cia said
fair hazel
they do..?
versed helm
CIA said it himself - only one bit of information has been firmly de-canonized.
A lot more than that should've been at this point.
And here's the clicker - what you see as having been a statement regarding what is or is not canon is actually an interpretation of yours which favours newer sources.
obsidian thistle
They gave the "everything is canon" thing unless they say so. And that 1 thing was the only thing previously canon that was de-canonized. Everything else has been very clear.
versed helm
C'mon, CIA, You know it's murky out there.
Probably better than everyone else. You've got exceptionally open mind, but there are many factors pulling at the validity of many pieces of information and it's just destructive to try and jam them all in there with no regard for quality.
It's mayhem - authorial intent is sabotaged, the tone of the universes gets muddied. It's impure.
God forbid you try and bring any kind of real life logic into the mix.
But the thing is, it's supposed to make sense because we're not supposed to take it as seriously as we often do. That's the nature of fiction and the plight of nerds.
fair hazel
Just saying "And no, CIA391 – this is not to be recorded on Halopedia as core canon. 😉"
versed helm
Well I'll be honest, I was doubtful of CIA's statement from the start.
I mean, Staten's statement on Johnson's Flood resistance is also a pretty clear instance of a retcon.
But I didn't want to say anything.
gilded mason
What's the difference?
obsidian thistle
The difference is. Its tweeking stuff to work instead of "this isnt canon".
versed helm
Okay then.
gilded mason
Hm.
versed helm
Good to know. But you'll forgive me if I continue to use the terms interchangably.
Because even a "tweak" will render some bit of information out of continuity.
fair hazel
I will?
versed helm
That's the nature of any canonical change.
obsidian thistle
Regardless I will default to how Halopedia does it essentially.
Everything is canon.
Marketing and Toy lore is not as important and can be overwritten if needed.
Halo Encyclopedia is canon unless anything at all contradicts it.
versed helm
And that approach everything being canon creates an awful lot of conjecture, doesn't it?
🤷
Instances where you can't effectively say what is canon.
And of course, also instances where things which are clearly ridiculous or against the tone or intent of the universe are played straight.
fair hazel
Instances where you can't effectively say what is canon. it is what it is
for better or worse
versed helm
I'm not, by the way, devaluing Halopedia here.
What it does is a great service for the community.
obsidian thistle
Sometimes errors are in reality not errors at all but logic we never saw. (I remember when folks were all confused over stuff in Halo: Cryptum as it conflicted slightly with the terminals and IRIS, only for Primordium to explain it slightly)
versed helm
Well, that's true enough.
People can be very quick to assume inconsistencies.
But that's usually because they're not willing to resort to interpretation and fill in the blanks.
I mean, what is canonical discussion if not, mostly, people comparing interpretations and sources?
obsidian thistle
Well if it means anything, I havent seen a huge canon breaking thing yet. Just oddities that often need explained.
versed helm
Well that's a spectrum of reasoning.
Some people see any "oddity" as canon being broken, and see multiple oddities as canon being broken over and over.
And some people like me don't think it is even possible to break canon because if something ruins continuity it doesn't have a place in a valid interpretation of the universe.
obsidian thistle
I find its best to just keep an open mind. Errors cant be helped. But I hope Halopedia and 343is internal wiki help keep most errors at bay.
versed helm
I guess that internal wiki is the tangible form of canon.
It would be incredibly interesting to me to see what is and isn't canon from that perspective.
I mean, here's something to consider as well - if there is a true, pure, objective canon it may not actually be for us to ever know.
It's not really profitable for us to know it, but it does help the creative process.
Though considering that inconsistencies do still happen an fairly noticeable amount, I'd be surprised if it's what we hope it is.
obsidian thistle
As said Halopedia do it like this based off stuff 343i have said.
Everything is canon.
Toys and Marketing come second.
Encyclopedia third.
But overall 343i get the overall say.
If 343i say Y is not canon. Well its not canon.
versed helm
I mean, 343 ain't one entity, either. I mean, they're just a bunch of creatives.
obsidian thistle
If 343i say Apt. 117 is canon. Well its canon. (FYI its not)
versed helm
As many interpretations as people.
feral perch
They make the games, they decide what’s canon
versed helm
They add to canon, and they decide what's canon to guide their creative process but they're a little reticent in laying down the law sometimes.
Don't you think?
feral perch
If someone else takes over, then that new group decides. I doubt that would happen though.
versed helm
I'm saying a decision is meaningless if we don't know it.
feral perch
I still think Rtas must have confused pod infectors with flood spores because of Sacred Icon and Quarantine Zone.
fair hazel
let's hope that day never comes stonewall
versed helm
I'm saying that we have many questions which are never answered so we can't know the canonical truth, meaning that for a coherent notion of the universe to be established we must fundamentally resort to interpretation.
feral perch
Mm.
fair hazel
the bungie-> 343 i guess happened yeah but
it makes sense
since 343i is the like, halo group thing
feral perch
Not everything has to be explained.
versed helm
UNLESS you're looking at continuity for the sake of categorizing instead of forming a coherent universe and narrative.
Well, that's part of my point StoneWall.
If everything was explained you'd kill the magic for a lot of people, which is why it's not explained, which is why everyone's entitled their interpretation.
As long as said interpretation is reasonable.
Sure, this absolutely true canon might exist but until we know if it we can't be held accountable to it. I assume in saying that that their internal rules for deciding what is and is not canon are not the same as our own, because they can't be to establish one uniform truth in instances of canon conflict.
obsidian thistle
Well as the saying goes. Canon till otherwise stated. Oddities may arrise but hey as Anakin Skywalker said "Thats where the fun begins"
versed helm
Realtalk, I wouldn't see that as a valid interpretation because it contradicts several recent and highly credible sources.
Thus, I will not engage with you in a discussion about the universe unless you sufficiently persuade me of the basis of your interpretation.
feral perch
Frank O’Connor?
versed helm
That's how that works.
So I don't think I'm being as lax and wild as you guys probably think I am.
I'm just embracing the fact that the substance of a universe isn't always objective fact. It's oftentimes passive assumptions based on tone.
feral perch
You’re one of the stricter people that I’m aware of actually. You are the only me who makes everything work in established canon by any means necessary, right?
versed helm
Or, compelling resolutions where canon collides.
What, me?
Yikes
There's tonnes of stuff I ignore these days
feral perch
Like Arbiter having zero protection against Flood spores in Sacred Icon?
obsidian thistle
Well here is the thing. The Halo Universe is what you make of it. I wont ever force it on you. :) All I can do is give ye an option based on the sources I have on canon itself.
versed helm
I've really hippied out, canonically speaking.
Well, my interpretation of that doesn't line up with what we'd see as canon.
It's the opposite of strict
feral perch
We must have different interpretations of strictness then
versed helm
I'm straight-up ignoring what we see.
Likely.
And yeah, CIA.
Agreed.
Very, very agreed on that.
Except for the "canon itself" part
feral perch
I prefer to accept out of universe explanations, like plot armor, where some things don’t make sense
feral perch
hehe
versed helm
Do you just accept that randomly miraculous things happen in this universe?
To a greater extent than what they, uh, definitely do
versed helm
Look mang
Arbiter's not snorting a load of Flood spores and being fine
No matter what way you spin it
obsidian thistle
Here is a good read. https://www.halopedia.org/Halopedia:Canon_Policy
All thats missing is the Toy Caveat.
Still to add that in.
feral perch
That’s partly why I like the plot armor explanation. Because it’s frustrating to people who look for a rational in-universe explanation where an official one hasn’t been provided.
last anchor
It can lead to some pretty intense arguments
feral perch
I don’t mean for it to. It’s more for the sake of seeing how much other interpretations are really accepted.
Of course, Looters kindly laid out his terms of discussion
So we wouldn’t have a problem anyway 😊
obsidian thistle
My fav line in that article I linked is this (edited to make sense)
"There are many reasons a mistake may happen; ranging from a typo or a line taken out of context to simple human error on the author's or editor's part."
feral perch
I don’t have a wonderful justification for my plot armor preferences so we don’t have much to discuss there
That, of course, is only where no other explanation has been offered.
So who agrees with Toa’s theory that Will-043 posed as the Chief for ONI between Halo 2 and Halo 3?
I do.
gilded mason
What's this?
obsidian thistle
Oh I believe I pushed that theory to him ages ago xD
feral perch
Ohh cool
feral perch
I really like it
obsidian thistle
I am however keeping my mind open.
fair hazel
i like the theory
gilded mason
It's interesting
obsidian thistle
I wont lock it down. All we know is Believe happened. A "Second Battle of Mombasa" 100% happened. (Thanks Legendary Crate Data drops for confirming the 3rd was during Halo 3)
stoic hamlet
I can definitely see it
obsidian thistle
And Will is not accounted for, for a small bit
stoic hamlet
We already know III’s masqueraded as II’s, for example
So there’s no reason a II wouldn’t do the same.
PR wins wars just as much as combat.
stable schooner
@feral perch I subscribe to Rtas don’t know what the heck he’s talking about.
feral perch
Yeah, getting your mandibles cut off might skew your viewpoint a little bit
stable schooner
I mean when you think about it Chief has fought the flood actually slightly longer then Rtas has.
gilded mason
You talking about the "One single Flood spore..." thing?
stable schooner
Yeah the Famous Halo 3 line
gilded mason
Ah, I always just took that as him exaggerating for emphasis that you shouldn't underestimate the Flood.
feral perch
At least it’s better than “To War”
stable schooner
Same Elite who didn’t wear a mask to the Quarantine Zone. Truly it’s secret wish fulfillment of glassing Earth lol
versed helm
Honestly
This "to war" hate is such BS
I mean if anything's stupid, it's the question. Why are these Marines asking a naval officer for a rally point?
What is a rally point in this context? A retreat point?
If so, her dismissal is perfectly valid as a way of saying "no retreat".
feral perch
Good point. Maybe I just don’t like Miranda Keyes all that much.
versed helm
Maybe you don't.
last anchor
Lot of people didnt for...some reason.
feral perch
Can we agree that Michael Wincott and Terrence Stamp each did a good job with their version of Truth?
versed helm
Not even gonna lie, I genuinely feel like it's sexism
No justification for that, I just do
last anchor
It probably is just a little bit.
Something something female officer.
That was one of the complains I heard someone say.
"Oh, if she was a guy I 'd have liked her better"
"She's whiny and impulsive and shouldnt be in command."
last anchor
I stopped hearing them after Reach came out oddly enough. Then people started looking back on 3 with nostalgia
stable schooner
Same never thought it has anything to do with Sexism. Halo 3 just has bad dialogue and story decisions
versed helm
There is a bit of a trend of people not liking female characters from video games who just sorta passively fill a role without anything being made of their gender.
feral perch
I don’t think Keyes was passive?
versed helm
If they just sorta, exist, and aren't sexualized or particularly sassy. They're just the same as a male character without any distinction other than how they look, they just kinda get hate.
It's an internet thing I suppose.
Sexism isn't really the right word, it's too strong.
But I think there's expectations there that cause certain people to passively respond negatively to such characters.
All the really beloved female characters have their gender play a fairly defining role in their character.
feral perch
Halo 2 Miranda is fine. Halo 3 Miranda is different somehow
other than the different voice actress, ofc
versed helm
I'm probably over-analysing.
feral perch
Mm
stable schooner
I’ll admit it doesn’t help I prefer Halo 2 Miranda including her voice actor same with Truth
versed helm
That's totally fair.
But you can't criticise Halo 3 without first acknowledging the emotional weight of the story.
They mightn't have executed it flawlessly in a logical sense, but the emotional stimuli that game conjures is potent and it's the draw of the story.
It's just a maelstrom of resonance, thanks in no small part to the soundtrack.
Fitting in a way, for a final battle.
feral perch
I feel like an overly large percentage of the emotional weight comes from Marty’s exceptional score
versed helm
Logic and reason give way to pure do-or-die and impact.
feral perch
That’s not always bad either.
stable schooner
Don’t really feel the stakes except for the final mission. Never seems like the UNSC is losing. Flood arrive hah here comes the Elite Spec Ops And their OP fleet to save the day
versed helm
Disliking Halo 3 is certainly a refreshing take.
gilded mason
Is that sarcastic or sincere?
versed helm
Sincere as anything.
You get a lot of dimwits dropping in to bash Halo 5 out of the blue in this chat, as you know
Refreshing to see something else get bashed even if I don't really agree with the basis
stable schooner
I honestly feel like ODST has more stakes as the UNSC is basically losing every mission except for one .
versed helm
I dunno, man. First time I did the last run to stop Truth in Covenant was incredibly tense for me.
As was Floodgate.
I remember it vividly.
stable schooner
CE Though is where I really feel the despair and Stakes as the UNSC gets completely destroyed on the Ring
gilded mason
For the most part, it felt like the UNSC didn't have many issues in CE while playing, barring the Flood.
stable schooner
Foe Hammers death still hits me hard.
Yeah I mean once 343 Guilty Spark hits, no Marines in the missions anymore, Keyes is a dang Proto Gravemind, nothing but Dust and Echos. Of course with the Flood and Fireteam Raven it’s really not that bad actually
last anchor
Yeah, CE felt like a Chief lead steamroll.
stable schooner
Lol clearly none us can agree on what game actually presented stakes then. Id at least argue Halo 2 had some
echo pine
So with the addition of the Halo reach game, what parts of the books involving reach are no longer cannon?
void bone
I was right about to ask everyone's thoughts on playing Halo chronologically, since Reach is coming first to MCC PC, and that'll be the first time lots of people have even played a Halo game. I have kind of mixed feelings, since it expects you to have a bit of an understanding behind what's going on, but it still follows an entirely different cast and storyline outside the mainline titles.
To answer, I'm honestly not sure since MCC terminals and Halo 5 both acknowledge Blue Team as an active unit around then, I can't recall specific details.
echo pine
Im actually not sure where to put reach if you're new. I'd probably say after the main MCC games though.
and huh. I know theres a large part of first strike that involves Halsey that cant work anymore thanks to Jun helping her leave. I was going to ask Grim at Outpost discovery but never got the chance.
feral perch
No, nothing in First Strike is broken because of Jun.
He left her after delivering her to CASTLE base iirc, and found his own way off-world.
The Fall of Reach and Halo: Reach are prob the messiest two pieces of canon, mainly because Reach stretched the fall from one day, as it was in the book, to about a month.
So to reconcile them, you have to believe that the UNSC kept the Covenant Invasion quiet up until about Long Night of Solace, and then even after that, the whole planet wasn’t informed of the invasion until the last couple days, again iirc
versed helm
Which makes a compelling argument for elements of TFoR not being trustworthy.
Though there is lore that was specifically put out by 343 to support the idea of the early stages of the battle being supressed.
feral perch
but mah childhood
versed helm
I mean, basically, I guess the assumption is that all of Reach happens in this expanding grid of neutralized orbital defences.
Most of the planet is covered, but as Auntie Dot says in the opening of Tip of the Spear, the Covenant troops in the Szurdok Ridge staging area were hitting orbital defences - presumably, it created an operable safe zone, which New Alexandria was part of.
There's some weirdness happening with the supercarrier, though, and Carter's seeming assertions that it took down all the ships in orbit.
Not entirely sure why the UNSC went out of its way to suppress knowledge of the invasion from even its own elements, though.
It's just... really silly. And I'm not sure how I feel about NOBLE having accidentally dashed RED FLAG either.
But this is what happens when you're reluctant to just retcon 🤷
feral perch
Reach falling as fast as a single day does seem pretty pathetic to be fair, and I like Reach’s attempt to justify the month-long invasion via the Zealot team’s mission
buuuut I still prefer TFoR’s account
versed helm
That's because it has a sick space battle.
fair hazel
it shows the covenant's might
feral perch
That is true.
versed helm
Honestly, they do fit together fine if you're willing to accept the secrecy thing.
feral perch
I would have loved to have piloted the UNSC Savanna and have a proper space fight
versed helm
Though I do question why Thel had his fleet fly at the planet instead of jumping into the ODP safe zone
Unless the UNSC patched up its defences after New Alexandria or something, I dunno.
I mean, why does the Covenant fly their fleet at anything
Why not just jump in under defence grids
It's madness
feral perch
Thel gets all the credit for Reach and Alpha Halo, for better or worse, but he wasn’t in either.
I would have liked some Keith David action, you know what I mean?
last anchor
He had a small fleet, nothing more
last anchor
Oh yeah
feral perch
He was the Supreme Commander of the Fleet of Particular Justice
last anchor
It takes minutes for them to spin up
feral perch
Locke kept going on about how dangerous Thel’s fleet was didn’t he?
versed helm
I mean I guess there's ground defences, so if you jump in underneath ODPs you're sandwiching yourself between ODPs that can presumably rotate to engage you relatively quickly and ground defences which presumably exist
I mean, you'd need anti-orbital ground defences to sustain any real ground combat
Gotta take those out
feral perch
I’ve been wondering just what exactly is the range of motion of an orbital MAC
versed helm
My belief is that they can probably fairly quickly pitch, roll and yaw
But can't really travel
But the former is a bit of a necessity for aiming
It'd just be RCS stuff
Oh wait
Headcanon
The support fleet for the supercarrier jumped in under the ODPs and took the UNSC by surprise so they orientated their remaining ODPs to engage targets coming out of slipspace between them and the planet
So Thel jumping in a bit away and then flying in makes some degree of sense
Gives him time to get opening shots on ODPs while they swivel I guess
Honestly the space battle from TFoR makes less sense that the space stuff in Reach itself, imo
I mean, specifically the Fall of Reach space battle, the rest is fine, especially Sigma Octanus which is brillaint
Reach shows the Covenant using shock tactics and taking the UNSC by surprise, but TFoR had them just kinda glomp the whole firing line when we know the Covenant can do all kinds of crazy slipspace manoeuvres
Then again maybe momentum plays a factor in entering and exiting slipspace
You come out of slipspace and you're relatively stationary until you gain velocity, so you're a momentary sitting duck
Big space battles in Halo are kinda like extreme speed, extreme distance jousting matches with extremely long lances, and momentum seems to play a pretty big factor at least in the Cole story
feral perch
Unless you’re Infinity
versed helm
Never effing mind then
feral perch
then you can ram enemies immediately out of slipspace
gilded mason
God, that scene
versed helm
It's kinda awesome though
Synchronized with Palmer's speech
It'd have to be a crazy precise jump
gilded mason
Eh
versed helm
And it'd look nothing like it actually did but that's how it goes with all visual representations of sci-fi space combat
Like even within Star Trek episodes the distances they say are way bigger than the ones shown
It's just how it is
Someday someone will get super visually creative and show it proper though
With space battles, imagine if they didn't have any sound like it'd really be
I think you could get really creative.
Lots of crazy shots
Sick music
Big, sweeping super-fast camera movements across space
Have any movies, shows or games ever actually done soundless space battles?
Would be dope to see somebody, and like you said have great music
Probably The Expanse
So, this is a tinfoil theory: Could the Forerunner crystal in First Strike might not even be Forerunner, but possibly Precursor?
Wasn't it just one of those slivers Forerunners used for their slipspace engines?
Or something like that
Good point, wouldn't be shocked
But would be pretty dope if it was actually a Precursor artifact/device
I guess it depends if there was a point to it.
Speaking of the crystal, do you like time travel being in Halo or nah?
It's impossible to get it flawless, and I tend to have pretty high standards for Halo.
Plus, it's not really part of the identify it has, in my eyes?
Well, mystery has always been a part of Halo. I guess it really depends exactly how it's done.
But I think I'd prefer it not to become an integral part of the fiction - something that can be repeatedly done - because I feel it'd somehow detract from the military elements I love so much and get more abstract, if that makes sense?
It'd represent a tonal shift, of that I am sure.
And tone is everything in fiction.
Yeah same, generally don't like it either
Would be totally fine with me if they stripped ilovebess from the canon
Could make sense if it really is a Precursor artifact, as they're more than likely higher dimensional beings not bound by time
Fair point.
I do think some of their artifacts were only partially destroyed, not destroyed like the others
In fact, I think they're 5th dimensional or even higher
last anchor
Slipspace be weirdlike
fair hazel
Likely a slip space flake but not confirmed.
lament bloom
What was before the precursors ?
versed helm
Presumably the big bang 🤷
gilded mason
The Predecessors.
gilded mason
Since it apparently existed longer than the universe, or is there another thing, too?
versed helm
🤷
I dunno
This whole section of lore makes me adopt exactly this facial expression
😧
gilded mason
lol
versed helm
😐 Or this one