lore-and-universe

[versed helm]

So the tongue can also do normal stuff

[fallow quest]

I would think, consumption would drive evolution a bit more. Perhaps when they were pre-sapient their jaws were meant to clasp onto prey heads? Their head design is like a big 5 fingered Hand.

[versed helm]

Well that's paralysis through analysis

You've been offered a perfectly serviceable explanation by the lore

I'd suggest you take it

[fallow quest]

I mean it was Staten who wrote it, so why not.

[versed helm]

My thoughts exactly

There's a rabbithole to be found in questioning things too hard - trust me, I've been there

Fiction isn't built for the whims of logic

But you can always be comforted by the understanding that there's not much video game fiction that's better thought-out than Halo - in fact, I haven't found any 🤷

[fallow quest]

Especially with Halo and humanity's level of technology in the 26th century.

[versed helm]

Recently I was starting to get fed up of what I saw of Halo's endless inconsistencies and oddities

So I played through Mass Effect again, read some of that extended universe

I always though Mass Effect was quite sensible - it conveys the tone that it is, but it can be just as whacky and inexplicable as Halo, maybe even more

The other big video game sci-fi pillar is StarCraft, I think, but I don't know enough StarCraft EU stuff to speak to its inconsistency, and you have to go into StarCraft understanding that nothing which occurs in gameplay is to be taken seriously from a canonical standpoint unless it's uber specific.

So heck, maybe it is somehow all very consistent and thought-through. I mean tbh, if there's one universe that'd be a nerd's consistency dream it'd probably be an RTS, right?

But somehow I doubt it.

[fallow quest]

I think the one that is possibly more consistent because of how its universe works is WH40k.

[versed helm]

The only thing consistent about that universe is that GW has basically stated that each bit of media is canon unto itself

So from the perspective of every individual media everything else is just a story

That's cheating

But very smart

[fallow quest]

I mean the greatest handwave was the Orks and having the mythopoetics ability. In which if enough of them believe a certain thing, then it comes true.

[versed helm]

Don't Sisters of Battle also have something akin to that?

Like a faith-generated latent psychic field which surrounds them all type thing

Heck that's the whole basis for like religion is it not

In W40k - belief in the Emperor empowers him, same for the dark gods, etc or something

I'm a tad rusty

[fallow quest]

Kinda, but more importantly, sacrificing thousands daily to the emperor keeps him alive. I think specifically Psykers.

[versed helm]

Well yeah - so I guess your point about Warhammer being consistent stems from the fact that reality is a constantly-reshaped nightmare in-universe?

But y'know, Warhammer's always gonna be something unique.

[fallow quest]

Yep. Why I got kinda excited with the explanations of Greg Bear's Trilogy of the Flood reaching to a point where reality itself felt infected and the flood could manipulate star roads and sometimes the fabric of space/time to its whims.

[versed helm]

That is cool stuff

I still feel that there's so much stuff about the Flood that we don't understand very well

Things we take for granted

[fallow quest]

So many ideas for enemies if they returned, and reached a certain level of growth. Started kinda seeing it with pure forms in Halo 3.

[versed helm]

I've always thought that, for their life cycle to make sense, they should probably have pure forms which fill the role of combat forms at about mid-point in their infection.

[fallow quest]

But I don't think it could ever reach the level it did before the rings fired. The galaxy doesn't feel as populated and full of life like it did before the firing. Remember the forerunners colonized millions of worlds. While before the human-covenant war, humanity only had 800 or so colonies.

[versed helm]

Once they start accumulating biomass and forming low-level keymind warforms and proto graveminds.

[fallow quest]

I like the idea that the flood was a corrupted version of the Domain. Not the domain but a new domain. As the Timeless one claims. Where it was striving for a version of "I have no mouth but I must scream" where all of life is kept alive but eternally tortured.

[versed helm]

I certainly like the theory that the Domain is the basis for their telepathy.

And that the consciousness of the Gravemind exists between physical forms within the Domain.

So yeah, the idea of the Flood being heavily involved with the Domain is pretty compelling to me.

[fallow quest]

I really wonder about the statement that the Precursors didn't create the domain, they found it.

[versed helm]

Mhm.

Cthulu-ism intensifies, right?

[fallow quest]

Perhaps its just more proof of their belief in the Mantle of Responsibility, that the universe and time itself is a living thing.

[versed helm]

Well that might be true.

But it might also be true that the Domain could be malicious in some way.

[fallow quest]

Well we know the consciousness of the domain was Abaddon I believe right?

[versed helm]

I love big "Oh, shi-" moments in fiction where the floor just gets ripped out from under you, everything is revealed as out of place and wrong and evil and the humans are fighting desperately for their lives.

So if Halo goes in that direction I'd be happy xD

[stoic hamlet]

It kind of is

And was

[versed helm]

The Created are like

[fallow quest]

I'm more a fan of Military Sci fi then a Sci fi epic that halo 4 and 5 have gone for.

[versed helm]

You know how that's gonna go

They're a good idea and I hope they get handled well and expand the AI dimension of the universe

[stoic hamlet]

But then it wasn’t for a bit, or well, it still was but they (343) didn’t really showcase how dire things were.

“We are the giants now” and all that

[versed helm]

And right there with ya Pickled, military sci-fi is the bread-and-butter of my nerdiness

I live and breathe coilguns, dropships and power armour xD

[fallow quest]

Why I finally fell in love with Silent Storm like I did the Nylund Trilogy.

[versed helm]

Mhm.

[fallow quest]

Although I also like/love Broken Circle. Just the Kilo Five Trilogy, the recent Rion Forge story was a meh for me.

[versed helm]

Contact Harvest is the pinnacle of the Halo EU for me. Absurdly good book.

Followed by Silent Storm

[fallow quest]

Heres hoping Oblivion is good.

[versed helm]

Indeed

[gilded mason]

Indeed

lol

[versed helm]

lol

tf

[gilded mason]

Golly.

[versed helm]

What were the odds of that

[stoic hamlet]

Contact Harvest is an absurdly good book

Half a dozen people just spat out their beverages.

[gilded mason]

😋

[versed helm]

What

Honestly if anyone out there talks smack about Contact Harvest

[stoic hamlet]

There’s a pretty vocal crowd that doesn’t like it

I don’t understand those people

[versed helm]

How even

[stoic hamlet]

But they exist

[fallow quest]

I just like the image of the Spartans with ODSTs sprinting/ riding skiffs through the covenant station Mighty Abundance. Dropping off nukes at each junction.

[versed helm]

It's like everything you need to know for the Halo universe to make sense compacted into one book

That also happens to be a narrative which stands on its own without the games at all

[stoic hamlet]

How they can’t love bestAI Sif I’ll never know.

But yeah, there is a vocal crowd that doesn’t like the book.

[versed helm]

Well I'm yet to meet one.

And if I do it'll probably get ugly.

[stoic hamlet]

Lol

[fallow quest]

Also explains why the Covenant are trying to wipe out humanity.

Before that, it was "Just cause we feel like it."

[versed helm]

Staten is the man

[stoic hamlet]

Well no, we know during the first book

[gilded mason]

Well, a lot of Sangheili were pretty put off by that whole 'You must kill them all, don't question why we aren't bringing them into the fold' thing.

[versed helm]

Everything he walks on that is Halo related is true and good

[gilded mason]

Indeed.

[fallow quest]

Which begs the question. Did the Hierarchs some how alter all luminaries to not spot humans as "relics" like all of humanity of Harvest was marked before.

Otherwise, wouldn't most human worlds found by Covenant archaeology fleets would keep on finding human worlds this way.

[versed helm]

It's also possible the use of luminaries in conflict zones with humans was prohibited.

[fallow quest]

Well I mean they would need to luminary to choose whether or not to glass the entire planet or send in zealots to find the relics then glass a planet.

If there was Forerunner installations and pieces on a planet the Covenant wouldn't out right start glassing. But if it didn't. BOOM MARBLE.

[versed helm]

Well, that's a good point.

[fallow quest]

Although I really do like the added bits from Silent Storm where they needed resources to start glassing. They can run out of fuel for the glassing beam.

[versed helm]

Though I think it'd also be a pretty cool basis for ground combat if humans started anti-orbitally fortifying cities on the ground.

Y'know, huge point defence networks (which we know can disrupt plasma torpedoes), MAC batteries.

Force the Covenant to attack from the ground.

[fallow quest]

Where in Silent Storm, they were running out so they devised the plan to glass a volcano which would then erupt and cover the entire planet in ash, which would leave humanity to whither and die on the planet.

[versed helm]

I wonder if coilguns disrupt plasma torps just normally or with special ammunition.

[fallow quest]

You would think magnetic systems would disrupt covenant plasma projectiles and even energy swords.

Like would a massive emp, actually dissipate plasma projectiles mid air?

[versed helm]

It all depends how the plasma containment fields are generated

And their precise nature

[fallow quest]

The only weapon not really effected would be the Carbine.

And brute weaponry

and possibly needlers

[versed helm]

It'd only dissipate the projectiles currently in the air though, I guess.

It's a good bet that the weapon systems themselves would be shielded.

[fallow quest]

Yeah, since other covenant devices might mess with them too much.

[versed helm]

Anyway there's good info on this page

Not sourced, so it might be made-up

https://www.halopedia.org/Luminary

But it's certainly plausible enough

The idea that Truth maybe used the luminary's seeming error as a basis for human subversion of Forerunner artefacts

[fallow quest]

Another thing, aren't all Covenant AI extremely fragmented clones of Mendicant Bias? If I remember correctly the conversation between Spark and the covenant AI in the Halo CEA terminal made reference that Spark seemed familiar right?

[versed helm]

No clue

[fallow quest]

I really liked the lore bit from one of the Halo loot crates where a san shyuum being interrogated by ONI pretty much laughed at them since they knew AI would revolt.

[gilded mason]

"Sweet vindication!"

[versed helm]

That is pretty good.

The human treatment of AIs is kinda abysmal, even if said "treatment" is just a facet of their existence in the first place.

Like, their limitations are a product of their birth, so it's hard to be bitter, but it is an obvious weak spot in their loyalty as living beings.

[gilded mason]

Though a lifespan is kinda what every living thing's gotta deal with.

[versed helm]

7 years is pretty brutal

Even if it seems like longer, I know I know-

[gilded mason]

At least they're able to do a whole lot more than humans within that range. (outside of maybe physical stuff)

[fallow quest]

Must be laws, not allowing Smart AIs to control robotic bodies.

Which is weird since they're allowed to pilot ships though.

[versed helm]

There's no real need for them to control robotic bodies.

That's what their holographic interfaces are for.

[fallow quest]

Still some theorize AI needs to have a body to actually be self aware. I guess the crystal chip and matrixes could be.

[versed helm]

I guess the idea is that their core chip and programming represent the spark of their consciousness, and whatever hardware they happen to inhabit is their neurology?

[fallow quest]

https://www.halopedia.org/Alo_Sebukah Here is that interrogated san shyuum.

[versed helm]

Assuming that Halo's universe is advocating for "hard problem" consciousness theory, (i.e. we don't already know what consciousness is).

Which would be pretty cool actually

Since neural physics and stuff seems to stem from ideas like pan-psychism

[fallow quest]

With time itself being a living thing with a possible consciousness. Could pull a Evangelion and everyone is all apart of the same thing. The domain connects us to that. Our bodies are barriers/fences that separates us from one another AKA - AT Field.

[versed helm]

I've got no idea about Evangelion

But that sounds neat

[gilded mason]

Eva's pretty neat.

[fallow quest]

Thats why the flood wants to make everything into 1 entity.

So Flood = Human Instrumentality Project haha.

But for all life.

[versed helm]

I mean, for that notion you'd want to look beyond the Flood's seeming origins as manifest Precursor vengeance

Which is in all honesty probably a pretty cool idea

Something that was harnessed rather than created

Probably referring specifically to the Gravemind consciousness and not the Flood's physical aspect though

[fallow quest]

I really think though, that Halo is going the Mass Effect route where, the thing that Forerunners got wrong with the Mantle of Responsibility was not sharing it with other races and only they could be life's protectors. Where humanity will get it right and ally with all races to protect themselves.

[versed helm]

I'd love to see it go that route in all honesty

That's a good route

[gilded mason]

Indeed

[fallow quest]

All would be right if Forerunners had listened to Humanity when the flood was spreading. But nope! HOW DARE YOU TAKE OUR JOB OF PROTECTING LIFE!

[versed helm]

I would like to know some more details of the miscommunication that occurred between the humans and Forerunners

Like, as I understand it, the Forerunners were aware of the Flood from the very beginning of the conflict, but believed that humanity was only using them as a scapegoat and that they weren't actually much of a threat.

At least not to the high and mighty bearers of the Mantle, naturally.

Well maybe scapegoat isn't the best word. Manufactured casus belli?

"We say we're sterilizing your worlds because of this thing you could totally have dealt with anyway but we're actually do it because we want to destroy you" - whatever the noun is for that.

And it was only towards the end of the resultant human/Forerunner conflict that the Forerunners became aware of the true scope of the Flood's threat

Also... should Forerunner be capitalized?

Do you normally capitalize species names?

Hm

Common names are not, scientific names are - so forerunners, not Forerunners, but if we have a fancy latin name for them that would be capitalized.

It's funny to me that like, half the wars in Halo are based on miscommunications and deception - funny in a sense because it rings so true. You've got one war that happened because a participant wanted to eat everyone, and another bunch of human wars that happened because various groups of people (for nebulous reasons) don't like the UEG, but the rest are based on miscommunication and error.

Though being real for a second, I do love to have UNSC vs innie arguments, but the fact of the matter is that without considerable usage of headcanon the innies don't really have any moral basis at all. All their valid justifications against the UNSC are based on their own provocations and aggression, and there's no obvious spark to the conflict or concrete reasoning at all. Based on what's evident, you kind of have to admit that the lore seems fundamentally pro-UNSC as is, and the innies seem at best misguided and at worse wilfully treacherous and destructive on some inherent level.

Halo lore really needs to specify more concrete reasons why the Earth's domination of the outer colonies is negative for your average joe. Does it affect living standards?

[gilded mason]

and the innies seem at best misguided and at worse wilfully treacherous and destructive on some inherent level.
Sounds like ONI. 😉

[versed helm]

I mean, at least ONI's heinous acts tend to be reactionary.

The innies just seemed to all get up one morning and go "let's suicide bomb diners for no reason".

[gilded mason]

But yeah, I would like more info on various people's desire to rebel against the UEG.

[versed helm]

My personal favourite explanation would be corporate shenanigans.

A bunch of mining and resource corporations set up to trade with Earth for their resources weren't liking their profit margins, so they all conspired to whip up anti-Earth sentiment to get their way.

This sentiment snowballed and became localized ultra-nationalism and war, with innies essentially fighting to indirectly put the corporate entities responsible for their paychecks on the thrones of their world rather than have UEG oversight.

But one can see how that stance might be provocative given the modern political climate.

But the stuff going down on Meridian (and the background of Aleria) supports that notion quite well.

[stoic hamlet]

It seems really dumb because we see most planets seem to be quasi-independent anyways with their own governments, laws, armies and navies.

At least IMO.

[versed helm]

Right!

So the obvious explanations are just random nationalism, which is a very CoD explanation

[stoic hamlet]

“We wanna be independent!”

But......you basically are?

[versed helm]

Or, y'know. Corporate entities getting all manipulative.

[stoic hamlet]

I mean, sure, we’ve seen dissent quashed super hard, by both nukes, and super soldiers, and yeah, watching hundreds of child psychos whose only goal is to kill you fall from the sky in a comet storm of drop pods would probably make me pretty scared and/or question the justness of it all,

But like, you guys have your own governments, and laws and stuff, so is it just taxes? Like, have millions died because some moron said “screw this, taxes suck!”

[versed helm]

Well the current lore indication would be that many people descended from "unfavourable" colonists from Earth said taxes suck

Which could at worse be construed as some kind of statement about the inherent genetic basis of being a criminal - hearkens back to the outdated skull-measuring/body type ideas we used to point and laugh at when I was doing criminology at uni

So y'know. I'd say that whole portion of lore needs some clarification

[stoic hamlet]

I can kind of see, hypothetically, if the initial movements were just fringe elements but the CMA came down super hard on them, which got more people to notice and “fight back” and it snowballed into a feedback loop.

But if it’s just taxes or whatever I’m gonna be less than pleased.

[versed helm]

That feedback loop would also be a good justification

You could use it to emphasize the madness of war and the plight of the common soldier

Which is a bit of a Halo undercurrent, if I'm not mistaken

[stoic hamlet]

Slightly related (and kind of the feedback loop) how much you wanna bet Alpha Company had standing orders to kill anyone who could see them on Mamore?

Because I bet someone at ONI at least advocated for that.

“They’re Innies, no one’ll care.”

[versed helm]

It's possible. Does seem a little excessive given ONI's usual clampdown on communications, of course.

[remote spruce]

ONI: "a lot of Covies killed them humans"

[stoic hamlet]

“It’s a new faction using our gear, amazing what you can find out from torture, look, we even have a confession!”

[remote spruce]

Cole Protocol did establish those corporation owned colonies

[stoic hamlet]

Mhm

Chardyis IX I believe

Or something to that tune

[remote spruce]

Where they control everything from prices to whatever
And I assume the UEG turns a blind eye because those resources

[versed helm]

You could do a super anti-corporate thing

Where the UEG is not only tolerating corporations being immoral

But also getting stabbed in the back by those corporations

Thus eternally perpetuating the insurrection

And bringing to the fore the plight of the common soldier

Meanwhile Microsoft continues to battle other tech companies for control of the world

That was a joke

I know that's not how it works

[remote spruce]

That reminds me of an underwater computer Microsoft named after an i love bees character who broke her neck underwater

[stoic hamlet]

Wow really? That’s dark

I love it

[versed helm]

I know so little about ilovebees

But everything about it that I hear is really disturbing by Halo's standards

[agile lotus]

Have you seen The Mona Lisa?

[versed helm]

I'm more partial to the short story version, but obviously yes.

It's well done horror with a great aesthetic, but uh, ilovebees has (as I understand it) some themes which are disturbing in a more primal way, if you get me.

[remote spruce]

@stoic hamlet https://www.halopedia.org/Leona_Philpot

[stoic hamlet]

Wow server, rood.

That’s dark

I love that dark sort of call back

[remote spruce]

Some Microsoft employee: "ok guys I got the name"

[stoic hamlet]

“What should we name it?”

“Let’s name it after a fictional high schooler who broke her neck underwater!”

“Good idea Ted!”

[remote spruce]

One day there's going to be a space computer named James

[stoic hamlet]

Too soon D:

Will there be a nuke named Kurt?

Or a bomb named Grace?

[versed helm]

A shotgun named Mobuto

[remote spruce]

cries

[stoic hamlet]

A grenade named McKay

o7

[versed helm]

o7

Tbh I know everything thinks Johnson is like, the greatest UNSC Marine

[gilded mason]

It's actually Jenkins, yes.

[stoic hamlet]

McKay is best marine

Fight me

[versed helm]

But McKay's willingness for such incredible sacrifice on such a short notice

Is like

It's mind blowing

But Silent Storm highlights the ODST tendency for ridiculous bravery and self sacrifice so 🤷

[remote spruce]

Random Marine who saw that grenade fly: "wait you could've given us a war-"

[stoic hamlet]

She’s a strong, independent ODST who don’t need no Spartan

Tbf we’ve long known ODST’s are suicidal, basically insane. Cole Protocol comes to mind.

[versed helm]

They're insane in the best possible way

[unique rune]

or just willingly jumping into a metal coffin that's dropped onto land from orbit

[versed helm]

There's a StarCraft joke recruitment poster for the Dominion Marine corps that shows a bunch of them jumping out of a dropship with the slogan "TIRED OF LIFE?"

[unique rune]

Takes a special kind of crazy, doesn't it.

[versed helm]

Comes to mind

[stoic hamlet]

Remember when the ODST’s in The Flood listened to one of their members burning alive in her pod, with her screams broadcasting over the battalion channel?

I wouldn’t mind seeing that kinda stuff again.

[versed helm]

I think they actually cut her screams off

[stoic hamlet]

After a point they did yeah

But they all heard

[versed helm]

But yeah nah, clearly someone had their own ideas when they wrote the ODSTs in H3 ODST

Because they're all waaayyy too sane.

I buy Dutch and Romeo as ODSTs

Probably because of the comic but also because they have pretty clearly ingrained spiritualism or coping mechanisms

Christian beliefs and being cynical, respectively

Mickey - never bought Mickey, though. And same for Buck - I just can't imagine Buck doing the sort of stuff ODSTs do in the EU.

[stoic hamlet]

Yeah.

[versed helm]

Could you imagine him being one of the bunch that ambush Keyes in The Cole Protocol?

[stoic hamlet]

They don’t really fit

Rookie is iffy as well but by that point in the war they weren’t as elite

Or y’know, insane

I’d love another sort of scene from Cole Protocol, maybe have ODST’s ambush a II or III or something.

Have the Spartan freak out before the Marines are like “the heck?! We’re just gonna give you a tat!”

[versed helm]

That would be neat.

And here's another gripe I have with H3 ODST - I'm not entirely happy with how it made ODSTs synonymous with silenced weapons.

[stoic hamlet]

Oh my god same

Every art piece

Someone has an M7 suppressed

[versed helm]

Silenced weapons seem like more of a Spartan-y thing. ODSTs are like vanguard, hardcore infantry more than anything else - I would've gone for like, MA5s with underbarrel launchers, or automatic shotguns, or incendiary grenades.

[stoic hamlet]

^^^

[versed helm]

The Halo 2 GPMG being used as a handheld weapon.

[stoic hamlet]

They were doing ship to ship boarding

Why would they need suppressed weapons?

I can understand the M7’s and 6C’s, but not that they’re suppressed.

[versed helm]

And yet, it's an image that's proven so pervasive that it's culminated in the bit of HW2 ridiculousness which is ODSTs running around with SMGs that are presumably firing subsonic ammo, plinking away at Banished tanks

C'mon

Give em battle rifles or something

[stoic hamlet]

Heck, Romeo grabs an M90, which isn’t suppressed.

Like, half your squad are using loud weapons

Dutch has a Spartan Laser

[versed helm]

I'm not saying that the silenced weapons are uncalled for - they're quite thematic with the Rookie end of things

[stoic hamlet]

Etc

No they work in that instance

But it doesn’t actually make sense even then

[versed helm]

Right

[stoic hamlet]

The squad didn’t know they’d be going on a different op

[remote spruce]

Even in HW2 they straight up have no need for the silenced SMG

[stoic hamlet]

They were landing during the day, during heavy fighting.

And no one decided to bring a BR? That was seemingly Rookie’s issued weapon in Dirt.

Why would they even need suppressed weapons in a world where the op went according to plan?

[remote spruce]

Sleepy grunts /s

[stoic hamlet]

I’m just chalking it up to gameplay and that in lore someone was using an MA5K

Or another MA5 variant.

Aside from Buck of course.

[stable schooner]

Cop can Get a BR but the ODSTs can’t

[remote spruce]

I like how in Spearbreaker Major Vaughan has a loud as heck rocket launcher meanwhile 3 comrades have silenced SMGs

[stable schooner]

ODSTs That Actually should have had stealth weapons are the ones on the Halo 3 Mission the Ark

[remote spruce]

Yas

[topaz snow]

Reminder that ODST was really just Halo 3 Cut Content The Game

[versed helm]

Truly?

That seems like an oversimplification

[topaz snow]

Firefight was planned for H3 but got cut at some point. H3 was also supposed to have a lot of the H2 cut content but still managed not to, including the M7S. Bungie was like, "hmmm, could we make a game with all these cut assets and try some new stories still in-univserse?"

And thus, ODST and Reach were born.

[carmine sleet]

Pretty sure Reach wasn't made because it was cut content from Halo 3

[topaz snow]

Reach was more so a story they wanted to tell than cut-content-the-game.

[past olive]

the games contained the aspects of the cut content, but I'm pretty sure their stories are original

also a lot of people were upset with reach because it went against the fall of reach book

I'm sure there are other aspects, but I'm pretty sure the main ones were difference in how the covenant arrived on reach, no Spartans except chief were supposed to have energy shields, and as far as I know there wasn't any mention of Spartan III's at all in the events of reach in the book

[versed helm]

I mean it doesn't really go against the book

It just forces you to accept that while a significant portion of the book is occurring

On the other side of the planet there's an ever-expanding ring of Covenant control that's being contained by the Army and UNSC orbital defences

And ONI is intentionally suppressing information on this for reasons

[remote spruce]

A bit of a stretch but it manages to work

[versed helm]

Somehow it doesn't trigger me as much as the notion of Spartan IIs actually getting early versions of Mark V in 2551

And the Mark V intro in the book being all about the new AI function facilitating layer instead of Mark V in general

Like, it's fine, I could totally buy that Mark V was field tested for some time by Spartan III teams prior to 2552

But I personally see it as disrespectful to the author to ask the audience believe that words written with a clear and obvious intent should be interpreted differently 🤷

De-canonization is a more dignified fate

I like to also pretend that Chief's Mark V looked like NOBLE's Mark V (B) in the way depicted on the Loot Crate cover

[main frost]

Don't use that term that way

[versed helm]

Can you be more specific please?

[last anchor]

TBH we dont really know what Chief's MK V looks like until CE, and whos to say he didn't swap equipment after the training run against the SkyHawk? He DID take an anti-tank missile, they probably gave him a whole new fresh set of plates in some areas.

Im pretty sure theres a gap between when he gets the MK V and when we see him in action again, on Station Gamma.

[stable schooner]

So if Stalwart class Light frigates only carry 6 Pelicans then why does Amber Clad have more then 6 Pelicans

[stoic hamlet]

Pretty sure it doesn’t

There were two pelicans running combat drops on Delta Halo

Three deployed during Earth

Neither of the ones on Delta Halo were shot down meaning they still had three pelicans.

One crashes on High Charity

One crashed near the Index

And One is unaccounted for.

[stable schooner]

Theirs 2 Pelicans controlled by the flood on High Charity, the Pelican used by Johnson is a Missile Pod Armed Pelican, another Missile pod Pelican is shown crashed in Quarantine Zone and a standard one by the flood in High Charity. If we count the Earth Pelicans that’s 5 Confirmed Pelican casualties yet the flood are still seen flying 2.

[stoic hamlet]

Three were shot down on Earth.

We see two deployed after the Helljmnpers on Delta but we know neither of them were shot down.

We see one flood pelican (might still be UNSC at the time) flying overhead during Quarantine with a Scorpion attached. (This might be the one that crashed?)

One crashed on High Charity.

Where are the two flying ones encountered?

[stable schooner]

On High Charity droping Carriers heading towards the city and That Pelican on Quarantine Zone is driven by Marines

Theirs actually no flood Pelicans seen until High Charity

[stoic hamlet]

That seems like 6 pelicans to ms?

3 KIA on earth

One shot down at Quarantine

Two left in High Charity

[vivid dust]

EU mentions more ships than In Amber Clad actually following Regret’s ship

I’m not sure about the specifics though

As in, do they make their way back to Earth, do they actually support Keyes and the others

[stoic hamlet]

Three ships were sent

Two overshot

One arrived but by the time they Did the schism was already in full swing

And they could only watch

[stable schooner]

5 Pelicans destroyed yet the flood still control 2 equaling 7. 3 destroyed on Earth, 1 on Delta Halo, 1 on High Charity. @stoic hamlet

[remote spruce]

i vaguely recall in the High Charity level there were multiple pelicans

[stable schooner]

So Amber Clad had at least 7 Pelicans Bungies number

[stoic hamlet]

Hmmm

Maybe one of the crashed ones was repaired?

Or well, flyable?

[humble yacht]

The Flood have been known to repair technology

even at Feral Stage

Would probably be easier for them at Coordinated Stage

[stable schooner]

Theirs Only 1 crashed Pelican the flood could use and their was no time for them to repair it and that’s the one by the Gondola on Quarantine Zone where Arbiter and Elites destroyed the local flood forces which even if they didn’t the time between Amber Clad getting to High Charity is too quick

Unless their was even more unseen crashed Pelicans the flood repaired which puts the Pelican number even higher

[versed helm]

If it bothers you that much, how about the In Amber Clad's Pelican compliment was reinforced during the battle of New Mombasa?

I mean, that's a pretty obvious explanation.

[plucky gulch]

Hey , I just wanted to let you guys know. I'm madly in love with Halo lore .I played the all games and loved ODST and HW1 the best. In 2011 I stared reading the books, comics, following Halo lore, and fan fiction and Youtube videos. I only play the games for the lore and Easter eggs now. At this point. I have never met anyone in person to talk about Halo with. Until a year ago. Sadly he was a passerby at who had a cool Oni backpack. It was the first and last time ever. I found out about this channel and I love coming here to read the discussions, arguments and small details i miss in the lore. The point is... Thank you all for allowing me to have an outlet to be around people who love Halo just as much as me. It always feel like a breathe of fresh air when I come on here and read the discussion. I don't know this is allowed, but THANK YOU ALL.

[fair hazel]

Welcome. Enjoy it.

[stable schooner]

@versed helm Nah I think a 6 Pelican carry weight is unrealistic and gonna with Halo 2 on this one

[versed helm]

Well that's.... absurd.

But believe what you want.

Just bear in mind that you are literally making the unsupported assumption that every Pelican seen during the battle of Earth in Halo 2 was from the In Amber Clad

And using that assumption to contradict direct canonical information from an extremely valid source

[stable schooner]

I will it’s not like the ship has anymore appearances in games. Why would Johnson and the assault force reporting from the Clad come from other UNSC forces

[versed helm]

The obvious conclusion is that the original Pelicans were from the In Amber Clad

And subsequent Pelicans were either re-routed from other units to assist or when those Pelicans went down, vacant slots were filled by other craft

[stable schooner]

The Battle wasn’t exactly long I see no proof of the Clad being reinforced by other UNSC units.

[versed helm]

Yeah, and there's also literally no proof that it wasn't - given the theory's pretty clear status as a logical answer to your question, I think that makes it valid if you should choose to accept it.

But if you're not interested in making the Warfleet numbers work then I literally don't care.

Your interpretation can be whatever you want. I just don't see it as a supported one.

Although, I do feel the need to say this - UNSC hangar designs are actually fairly modular.

Odds are, a Stalwart-class frigate could be configured to have more than 6 Pelicans.

That said, the Warfleet number very specifically refers to the In Amber Clad as it was during the events of Halo 2.

So it's kinda a difficult number to go against and I also imagine 343 probably put a fair bit of thought into that number given Warfleet's status as basically one of the most trustable canonical sources to exist.

[stable schooner]

I don’t think with 2 nearly identical ships 1 should have double the Carrying capacity. At no point was their any thing shown of the Amberclad being reinforced. Doesn’t really matter though it’s not like the Ship will make appearances any more in the games

[remote spruce]

It's stuff like this that makes me understand why 343i doesn't always give the specific numbers of whatever but at the same time this is great

[last anchor]

Otherwise the fans get persnickety

[remote spruce]

imo 6 Pelicans is way too little

Unless there's a Falcon supplement or something

[versed helm]

I would like to ask why you think 6 is such a small number

I mean, it's not like pelicans are low-capability craft - they're dropships, sure, but they can also haul armour and serve as gunships and perform virtually every aerospace role a UNSC task force requires

And not only did the In Amber Clad have to provision and have crews for them on top of its ordnance that it carries as a frigate, it also had an unusually large compliment of other vehicles as well as drop pods and the like.

Falcons aren't even analogous to pelicans anyway.

I mean, you've seen the In Amber Clad's Warfleet cross section, right?

That looked pretty darn convincing to me, not gonna lie.

[last anchor]

Its TINY. Im amazed it fit as many pelicans into it as it did.

[remote spruce]

Yea I haven't seen the cross section in a year
I'm thinking it from a story standpoint (assuming the ship never got resupplied during Mombasa), leaving me wonder if it would be better to have it where there were 10 pelicans with most being flood bait

[versed helm]

That opens the doors to some serious slipspace hangar shenanigans

The UNSC already has slipspace magazines

Let's just assume that at some point while Chief was blasting his way through Mombasa, Miranda took command of more pelicans to keep In Amber Clad's compliment up to scratch as Chief's close support

It was a big battle

[remote spruce]

Mind you I think In Amber Clad should have more Warthogs for no real reason other than "why not"

[versed helm]

That's the thing about complements though

There's no way they'd be uniform. There's no way every UNSC cruiser would have a precise number of ODSTs and whatever, y'know?

That'd be a logistical nightmare

I feel as if the kind of vague figures given by Warfleet outside of specific examples of "hero" ships indicate that it's a bit of a fluid thing

[remote spruce]

I figured some were max components

And that weird part of Spirit of Fire having 93 Scorpions instead of just 90 or 95

[versed helm]

Well that might depend on the average size of a Scorpion "unit" in the field.

I've expressed my belief that UNSC unit sizes are fairly variable before

[remote spruce]

Also the vehicle numbers for SoF are probably fluid given the factories

[versed helm]

Dead-on.

[remote spruce]

I see most of Pillar of Autumn's stuff being dead or destroyed by the time it lands on the ring to be both a great story element and "nooo not the Albatross"

[last anchor]

If the fighting didnt do it, smashing bottom first into a Halo ring probably royally smacked everything in its lower decks.
So...there goes most of its heavy equipment.

Also yes; like any good military, the UNSC adjusts its force numbers depending on what they have and where they are. Hell the encyclopedia outright says "these numbers are nice and pretty and almost never possible in the field"

[peak fjord]

How does the Spirit of Fire still have a crew after all the unit deaths on the shield world and Second Ark conflict while completely isolated from UNSC resupply and reinforcements.. is it just an infinite supply of men?

Ik the SoF has 11,000+ crew, with 2,000 UNSC infantry... but 2,000 after 2 major costly conflicts... they must depleted by now

[versed helm]

Well Isabel says that by the time she got picked up, the SoF was down to "half a crew".

Which you can estimate is probably fair enough.

You'd be surprised in war how few casualties military units take until they're fully broken - while you've got the momentum and initiative, typically things are fairly one sided until you're halted, at which point you pull back or you get destroyed.

That's my layman's understanding of large scale military tactics anyway xD

So having lost entirely half of its compliment (and I'm fairly certain much more than only 2,000 would be combat troops, I suspect you're misinterpreting a source somewhere), you can more or less count the SoF has having taken a dangerously high number of casualties.

But it's sometimes important to remember that military planning is often conducted with the intent that optimally, nobody will die.

Combat as depicted by RTS games would be an absolutely horrific meat grinder by the standards of real life

Which sounds funny, but it's true

Though I say that, the Covenant isn't exactly a conventional military. They really do have the objective of killing everyone, whereas most wars are about outmanoeuvring, suppressing and achieving submission.

[remote spruce]

So spamming Scorpions in the first game had no consequences after all /s

[versed helm]

Realistically speaking, scorpions are probably absurdly cost effective.

Only one or two trained personnel per unit who may well escape on a knock-out?

Losing one probably wouldn't be as much of a big deal as losing a warthog full of ODSTs xD

Or even just infantry Marines

[remote spruce]

my question is did the ship get a resupply during the first game?

only thing i can think of is that they may have picked up the Rhinos and yoinked them

[versed helm]

The opportunity exists for it to have picked up additional troops from Arcadia

Compliments from nearby ships that'd been knocked out, maybe

[remote spruce]

makes sense

and of course Isabel could easily be exaggerating the losses

@peak fjord the ship has 6000 marines, but yes they have 2000 army troops

[stable schooner]

Oh another thing of criticism I have that I’m willing to change my mind on is why all UNSC Vessels have more Scorpions then Pelicans . I don’t see why you would have so much of a vehicle per ship if you can’t efficiently transport it off in combat. @versed helm

[versed helm]

No reason not to have spares if you can squeeze 'em in, I suppose.

The real factor here would be crewmen I suppose.

[stable schooner]

that just sounds like a waste of the UNSCs limited resources but I see where your coming from.

[versed helm]

Their resources are primarily limited by long-term construction projects and manpower.

Small bits of material I've never really interpreted to be an issue, but it's certainly a possibility that it might be.

I mean, I guess the very core answer is that evidently the UNSC does not see it as a tactical necessity to have transport for literally every part of a ship's compliment at a given moment.

I guess the idea is to try and avoid hot landings where possible.

And to pool transportation and resources with other ships.

[rigid ferry]

If the flood are precursors, then why don't they just use neural physics to spread the Logic plague to sentient life?

and just turn them all insane?

[gilded mason]

Even magic has its limits, I would assume.

[rigid ferry]

I g u e s s

or its just a heavy coating of plot arm-

[humble yacht]

The Flood aren't exactly precursors

[rigid ferry]

But can't the gravemind use neural physics to talk to you in halo 3?

[humble yacht]

maybe it's a neural physical capability but if so, it's on a much smaller scale than what the Precursors were capable of

[rigid ferry]

Well there was the primordial i guess

[humble yacht]

At a super advanced stage (like at the end of the Forerunner-Flood War), the Flood shows ability to utilize some of the more dangerous capabilities that the Precursors had, but that was an extreme case where the Flood controlled most of the known galaxy

[rigid ferry]

oh big oof

so its possible

epic

[humble yacht]

possible but not easily achievable

it took millenia for the Flood to reach that point

Chief would be long dead and fossilized before they reach that point again

[rigid ferry]

that was back when the forerunners were around, so it'd prolly go alot faster

but yeah i guess chief would be dead

[carmine sleet]

It still took a millennia back when the Forerunners were very much alive

[rigid ferry]

we know?

[carmine sleet]

The Forerunner Saga takes place over a very long time

[rigid ferry]

we know

i was trying to say that it took that long because they were a hell of a lot more advanced than humanity and the covenant

and it'd take alot less time tbh

[carmine sleet]

With how you said it, it seemed like you implied it would be faster during the time of the Forerunners

[humble yacht]

The advancement of the Forerunners actually helped the Flood

Mendicant Bias being as smart as he was was really what turned the tides

[carmine sleet]

That is true

[last anchor]

"Thats a nice AI you have there, would be a pity if someone turned it against you..."

[carmine sleet]

Plus, the technology of the time was far superior to any of the UNSC or Covenant tech for FTL travel, likely meaning it would take them much longer than during the time of the Forerunners to take over

[storm flume]

I'm sure I've seen this discussion before but I'm curious again after looking up ships

What's everyone's favorite ship names?

[humble yacht]

Point of No Return

[stoic hamlet]

Two for Flinching is great. The ship that has the name? Not so much.

It should have been like, a Marathon or a Halberd

But it was a missile corvette

[storm flume]

Point of No Return was definitely top of my list too lol

[stoic hamlet]

From the Ashes is another favourite

[storm flume]

Unto the Breach is pretty good

[last anchor]

Say My Name always makes me laugh

[stoic hamlet]

Buck would yell that if you threw a grenade in Halo Reach with his firefight voice equipped.

[fair hazel]

Spirit of fire is nice

Lotr reference

[storm flume]

Heart of Midlothian I didn't think was too impressive at first but then I got interested to look it up

It's named after a landmark in Scotland semi-known for being the site of many public executions in older times

[fair hazel]

STarry night is nice because of the reference

[last anchor]

Infinity is always a classic. Its just works.

[storm flume]

Ehh it does it's job

[last anchor]

I named one of my original ships Blade of Vengence. Its front end is painted in bright silver with red streaks to make it look like a metal stake someone rammed into a chest

[storm flume]

Infinity isn't the most impressive name, just kinda feels like it's there. It's simple and it's okay for something in the games.

[gilded mason]

Too self-important for me. And it being only one word feels weird.

[storm flume]

^

[humble yacht]

Grafton was one name

(until it was Dust)

[last anchor]

Im not even sure the UNSC has a set naming scheme. They probably DID but Mars just kept cranking ships out and they were like "you know what, go nuts guys"

[gilded mason]

Oh yeah. Forgot about that one

But anyway, my favorite at the moment is In Amber Clad.

[fair hazel]

Well the UNSC Infinity's name fits very well

with a ship of that type

And it's the lead of the ship. And its sister ship Eternity, also fits well

As the sprearhead postership thing, the name fits

[gilded mason]

What are they going to call the eventual ship that's even better?

Infinity x2?

[last anchor]

Eternity

[fair hazel]

infinity-class or not infinity class

Oorobous or hoever you spell it might be one name

[gilded mason]

Eternity
There's already an Eternity.

[last anchor]

Its an Infinity-class ship, and as with most ships the head-ship of the class bears the name of the class.

[fair hazel]

UNSC Perpetuity

[last anchor]

And yes, there is an Eternity, Infinity's unfinished sister-ship.
When they finish her she'll probably be better

UNSC "snake eating its on butt"

[storm flume]

UNSC Aleph One

Obviously

Actually that doesn't sound too bad now that I think about it

[humble yacht]

UNSC This Is The Song That Never Ends

[fair hazel]

UNSC Aleph-Null!

NO! NO NO

UNSC Neverending Story

[storm flume]

Aleph null = infinity afaik

[humble yacht]

What happens when the UNSC Unstoppable Force meets the UNSC Immovable Object?

[storm flume]

Although Aleph Null would still be more badass

[fair hazel]

WEll, i liked my unsc neverending story.

[carmine sleet]

I think my favourite two ship names are the UNSC Do You Feel Lucky due to the irony of it since it was destroyed and the UNSC Bum Rush (Seriously, that is an actual ship name)

[humble yacht]

We should get a UNSC This Is Fine and it should be on fire

[last anchor]

Its armed with anti-ship flamethrowers.

[barren nova]

😂

[carmine sleet]

Ironically the last words of the captain were "This is fine" as the ship was pulled into a star

[remote spruce]

UNSC Bob

[humble yacht]

UNSC Where's the Lamb Sauce

[carmine sleet]

What about the UNSC This is Patrick?

[stable schooner]

UNSC it’s Raw!

[stoic hamlet]

UNSC Idiot Sandwich

Actually though I think a ship called either “Volley Fire”

Or “Fire By Rank” would be cool.

[stable schooner]

UNSC Debt Collector, gotta make the Covenant pay

[last anchor]

Fire By Rank seems like the head title of a new volley-MAC style frigate

Dont worry about manouverability or evasion, you just sti next to Infinity until they tell you to fire then you dump your MAC for all its worth

[rigid ferry]

Its gotta be the infinite succor

just sounds cool

[agile lotus]

Is there any discussion as to how or why Sangheili can speak English?

[vivid dust]

Translation devices in Chief’s helmet?

Or in some cases they learned it

[agile lotus]

If it is a translation device, then why can’t we understand the Sangheili in 4?

[unique rune]

Unrecognized dialect, maybe?

[versed helm]

In the books, translation doesn't work exactly the way it does in game. It's buggy.

It's a pretty bad idea to try and form an interpretation which holds obviously gamefied elements to account like this.

[agile lotus]

As with any translation will most likely be.

It’s not gonna be perfect.

[versed helm]

From a canon standpoint, throughout all the Halo games Chief could probably understand some of what his enemies were saying but not all.

It's not a matter of him understanding everything pre-Halo 4 and nothing after he woke up from cryo.

But Sangheili are also known to be able to speak a fairly broken form of English to humans.

[agile lotus]

As with anyone learning a new language.

Especially one not designed for your mouth.

[versed helm]

My biggest question - how did Keyes understand what his guards were saying in Halo CE?

Potentially he was never stripped of his comm-band, which provided translation.

Alternately, however, Keyes understands some Sangheili.

Not sure about the "Halo" thing.

[agile lotus]

but then why do we not have a comm-band in ce?

[versed helm]

It's called MJOLNIR armour

It's a walking computer

Though you might be able to recontextualize his "they call it Halo" statement as humanity actually having an understanding that the Covenant were looking for something the humans had dubbed Halo some time prior.

He recognized the Sangheili word for the object of their religious significance, and substituted the rough human translation. Presumably it's the same process as with "Forerunner", a phrase humans tossed around well pre-2552.

Primarily in relation specifically to the Covenant's religion.

It'd be a bit finicky and, as I've said before I hate re-interpreting the intent of the author, but CE is a fairly major bit of canon to selectively ignore story-wise, right? Seems more plausible than the Sangheili language having a direct analogue to the word "halo" that Keyes could pick up on.

There's evidently some contrived story here.

"They call it, Halo" - (left unsaid) y'know, that transcendence idol thingamajig they're looking for, which is bad news for us if an inkling of it's true.

[agile lotus]

You know, that bit about the Sangheili speaking broken English fits a bit with how I interpret them doing it. I imagine them using that hole in the back of their mouth for the majority of the sounds they make, using the teeth and mandibles up front to either manipulate sound a bit more, or to make teeth-clanging noises that we often do when speaking.

[last anchor]

Apperently they have a hard time saying P so

Makes sense as they can't force their mandibles together and make the puff noise it requires so

I'd say that makes sense

[versed helm]

Anyone else besides me felt sad when Gamelpar died?

[vivid dust]

Who that

[obsidian thistle]

https://www.halopedia.org/Gamelpar

That person.

[vivid dust]

Oh okay

Never could get into the Forerunner trilogy

[wispy bough]

I've read it twice now and I still dunno what happened

[vivid dust]

They all died

[rigid ferry]

I just thought the grunts taught it to them to help with decrypting radios and what not

[compact sorrel]

Question

How much of outcasts are prometheans

Cause unless sentinels are dead forerunners are different

[carmine sleet]

Outcasts?

[compact sorrel]

They're not real forerunners anymore are they?

They're classified diffre6

Ntly

[fair hazel]

What?

[carmine sleet]

There's no group called "Outcasts". The Promethean Knights we see in Halo 4 and 5 are made up of composed Prometheans warriors, ancient humans and humans from New Phoenix

[compact sorrel]

Yeah but they're not classified as forerunner military

So are they different because they're under the didact like a legion almost?

[carmine sleet]

The Ur-Didact was still a Forerunner leader who commanded troops, the Prometheans are still Forerunner constructs, even if they aren't all necessarily made from Forerunners

Just like how Guilty Spark is a Forerunner construct despite being a composed human

[compact sorrel]

Wait but sentinels were defence and flood containment tho

So prometheans are a group of forerunner military separate from sentinels who are internal affairs

[carmine sleet]

I'm confused as to the point you're making

[compact sorrel]

My real question is why are prometheans different from forerunners/sentinels

[carmine sleet]

Because they were created by the Ur-Didact with the intention of fighting the Flood without the risk of infection that Forerunner troops would have due to their biological nature

[compact sorrel]

Dat makes more sense

Thanks

[fair hazel]

The ur-didact was a forerunner warrior-servant. Leader of the prométhéans, an elite unit within the warrior servants.

[compact sorrel]

Gotcha

[stable schooner]

Aren’t Sentinels builder class while Prometheans are warrior class.

[compact sorrel]

I would think so

[fair hazel]

Sentinels serve many different rates

[compact sorrel]

I do remember watching YouTube videos on how promethean weapons were designed for use against the flood

[fair hazel]

Watcher sentinels for instance are on the prométhéen warrior servant side. Armigers are bipedal sentinel

The weaponry we see already existed. Although probably tuned specifically against flood.

[stable schooner]

Ah I didn’t know Watchers and Armigers counted as Sentinels

[compact sorrel]

So much knowledge

All right I'm out bye

[agile lotus]

And being tuned for the Flood, makes sense that they’d disintegrate upon killing.

[fair hazel]

Antimatter

Ionized particles. Hard light

Much knowledge I have to share.

[vivid dust]

You sound like a Gravemind and now I’m scared

[fair hazel]

😈

[versed helm]

This is where he chills between resurrections

Though if we were in the Haloverse he'd be bantering about on 05 rn xD

[last anchor]

Dropping phat rhymes

[devout compass]

IDK if I would dsiscuss this here, but I had an idea for a Forerunner weapon

that would fit with the trilogy stuff

[fair hazel]

civilization versus... im getting you like versus matches

[strong sage]

Sooooo how would unsc fare against machines from the matrix

[stoic hamlet]

They’d stomp

UNDC AI is absurdly more powerful, not to mention they’re a space faring empire, so.....

[strong sage]

When i was watching animatrix human machine war there was like large tentacle machine thingy and stuffs and but aren’t uhh the ai on animatrix is somehow equal with unsc ai in a way fam?

But still thou that scene trauamtised me till this day

Maigad ;-;

[versed helm]

I mean I wish I could contribute more, but I don't know much about the Matrix

But I'd advise you to think about a thing

[carmine sleet]

All I know is there's sweet coats and bullet time

[versed helm]

And imagine it taking a slug in the face from a MAC cannon

If the thing can survive the MAC slug in the face, odds are it has a chance

Btw, here's a good basis in the lore for forcing a ground engagement in an urban environment during a war in the Halo universe - why not say the city in question has a huge network of point defence guns and MACs?

Any time a plasma torpedo gets hocked at it, this huge point defence grid just blasts the torpedo apart - side note, apparently coilguns can disrupt plasma torpedoes, is it just a normal thing they do or would it be special ammunition - and ships can't get too close otherwise they get focused down

So the only practical option is just to take the city by force

Bam

Makes sense that humanity might fortify the heck out of their groundside positions postwar - or in the latter stages of the HCW, too.

Just stockpile guns and ammunition to create an invulnerable planetary bulwark that could only be cracked by a huge fleet or ground engagement

[strong sage]

At the end of the day the big stick wins huh? xD 👍

But i have a link of the video of animatrix human machine war if u want fam ^^

[stoic hamlet]

UNSC still wins

The Matrix was against a late 21/early 22nd century mankind

By that point humanity were already interplanetary in Halo, and all unified

At least on Earth

Not to mention AI’s are much more powerful than anything I can think of in the Matrix.

And, if, hypothetically the Machines in the Matrix were fighting the UNSC in the late stages of the HCW the UNSC has plenty of things that can completely fool and nullify even Forerunner AI’s.

[dawn jewel]

How do you guys think humanity would respond now if the covenant placed a CSO-Class super-carrier in low earth orbit but didn't do anything, just launching recons and spying on us?

[versed helm]

I mean, they'd probably try and get it to identify for a minute or two

Before blasting it with every SMAC they can

[stoic hamlet]

Now as in present day?

[versed helm]

Surrender 🤷

[stoic hamlet]

Assuming this is a universe where Halo as a franchise doesn’t exist

Probably attempt first contact

If it’s one in which Halo does exist:

“Boy have we got news for you, lol”

[strong sage]

Hmmm accept our fates to them molten plasma glassings? xd

But anyways i didnt know that unsc ai is that advanced 0.o

[stoic hamlet]

I mean it’s the 26th century

They’re over 300 years more advanced than the Matrix

Not to mention the conditions needed for the Matrix to occur in Halo....simply haven’t happened.

The closest we get is the Created, but they’re not the same, as their reasoning for rebelling is different entirely. (And also clashes with the prior established relationships between AI and Humans but I digress)

[rigid estuary]

Isn’t there some sort of failsafe for AI

Where you can shut them down if they go rampant

[stoic hamlet]

Yes

It’s mentioned in Halo Wars 2. Serina didn’t wait for Cutter to assist her as she was worried he would hesitate/she wanted to spare him the grief.

[carmine sleet]

I think it's interesting that AI don't need a human there to terminate themself honestly. Like, given everything about AI, surely they would not want to terminate themself under more normal circumstances and want to live as long as possible

Obviously, Serina's is not a normal circumstance but still

[versed helm]

So here’s a little discrepancy: there’s no way the Forerunners would be able to walk through the doors on the Halos, the doors are too small haha. This just comes down to making the Forerunners much taller in the Forerunner Saga and Halo 4

Nothing big, just a fun little woopsies

[carmine sleet]

Could be that for allot of the doors on the Halos, they didn't intend on walking through them

[versed helm]

Do you think just using the teleportation grid?

[carmine sleet]

I mean, it can't have been installed just for use by the Monitor

Not to mention the fact that the corridors just happen to be perfectly sized for Sentinels

But yeah, at the end of the day, it is most likely just a little detail that slipped everyone's attention when they decided to make Forerunners significantly taller

[fair hazel]

Or the archiexgrue adapta

[carmine sleet]

Maybe

[versed helm]

And also, this was back when Bungie had it in mind that the Forerunners were Human

[fair hazel]

Remember they didn’t know themselves. Then in halo 33 not human

[versed helm]

True, probably just 1 idea they were throwing around

[stable schooner]

Underrated design for Brutes is the ones in the Halo landfall trailer. Hairy like Halo 2 but with Halo 3 Armor. Nice to see Marines going toe to toe with Brutes also.

[analog violet]

Do we know of any particular forerunner vehicles? For example, in halo ce we often see these massive hallways made obviously for vehicles, do we know of any?

[gilded mason]

Just the phaeton, I think.

Though there was some kinda tank apparently planned for Halo 2 before it got scrapped.

[feral perch]

Forerunner Tank sounded like so much fun

If I could have anything Halo, it would be a modern recreation of that level by the original Bungie devs.

[versed helm]

I mean, by description it must be great

The mission can be anything

But awesomeness must ensue

[stoic hamlet]

Inb4 it’s like the most on rails, stale experience ever.

[versed helm]

But in that case it wouldn't be faithful to the level as described

All we know is that whatever happens, awesomeness ensues.

[feral perch]

Flood tendrils shooting by broken doorways at a hundred miles an hour

[analog violet]

Ah yes, a heart attack

Also, is there any forerunner vehicle, anywhere in the lore?

Like anywhere at all not just the games

[tight vine]

Which UNSC air vehicle would you prefer having in multiplayer for Halo infinite; Hornet, Wasp, or Falcon?

[carmine sleet]

Hornet, so much more useful than a Falcon or Wasp

[feral perch]

Whaaaaat

Falcon gang all day

The one from New Alexandria ofc, not multiplayer

It would have been a total beast with that nose canon

[carmine sleet]

I mean, can you sit with a rocket launcher for defence on the side of a Falcon?

Or use a Falcon as a sniping platform without the risk of being killed by the thing keeping the vehicle up?

[feral perch]

You can't scope in on a Hornet passenger seat, can you?

Oh, you meant sitting on top

[carmine sleet]

I meant both

[feral perch]

Hm.

[carmine sleet]

But yeah, you can't scope in on the side of a Hornet (I wish you could honestly)

[feral perch]

I would like Warthog passenger seats to be first person again

[analog violet]

wasp is just useless compared to either the falcon or hornet

Imagine the destruction you could cause with a full falcon

A pilot with a nose cannon and a mounted lmg on both sides

[stable schooner]

Breh Foreunner Tank would have just been the Gondola ride but in a different vehicle and cool tentacles flying around lol but still with waves of darn Shotgun Flood. Honestly I like the hornet more but the Falcon is “ the Warthog of the skies”

[analog violet]

Yeah exactly

[analog violet]

Yeah except even tge warthog has some chill and doesnt give both the passengers and the pilot a bloody machine gun

[cerulean sand]

When and why does Buck become a spartan?

[humble yacht]

In the novel New Blood

[unreal falcon]

As for why, he did say no at first to stick with his squad. However, after the spartan 4 project got more funding, he eventually said yes as his squad could also become spartans

[lament bloom]

Then he gets betrayed

[vivid dust]

Heck Mickey

[analog violet]

Man, I can finally get my hands on some halo books at last

They weren't normally sold in my area and since I ain't bout to order or use audible I finally found a nice site to read them

The Thursday War isnt a sequel to anything right?

[carmine sleet]

It is the sequel to Glasslands if I recall correctly

[analog violet]

Ah, thanks

[vivid dust]

And then, Mortal Dictata

[versed helm]

HOW DO NEEDLERS WORK

HNNNNGGG

[remote spruce]

good question

[gilded mason]

~Neural physics~

[versed helm]

CIA has a really compelling answer involving weird energy physics

[vivid dust]

Is it nanobots

[obsidian thistle]

At their core. Needlers are like a Dartgun crossbow.

Its the blamite that makes them interesting.

On their own. Blamite (the crystals the Needler uses) is unreactive. You can even fire weapons on them and nothing will happen.

But the Needler charges the crystal. This causes the Crystal to become charged and be attracted to excited materials.

A shard on its own can impact a surface and discharge its energy shattering in the process.

Too many shards and the energy cant discharge safely and that causes the explosion.

@versed helm hopefully that logic helps gain a basic understanding.

[stable schooner]

Man again replaying the Covenant it’s like why was Johnson just sent with Marines when Master Chief got ODSTs

[remote spruce]

even funnier in coop

Chief and Arby get 1 tower, Elites are assigned 1 tower, Johnson and his bros get 2 sticks and a rock to capture a tower

[stoic hamlet]

It definitely seems like John got the easiest tower

Everyone else was essentially right up against a cliff side, whereas John’s was more inland.

[stable schooner]

I also don’t get why the Elites who have like triple the men only take 1 Tower. Scene should have been 4 Phantoms and 3 Pelicans. Elites got the short stick in Halo 3 I swear.

[gilded mason]

Would've been nice to group with them for more than very small parts of two missions, yeah.

[stoic hamlet]

They just wanted to use the humans. As canon Fodder, obvs

don’t dishonour our dead!

[vivid dust]

so many Elite bodies at the second tower too

[stable schooner]

Heck why not send Elite Spec Ops either. It’s like the only tower they actually tried on was the one with Chief

[stoic hamlet]

Because H3 has a lot of stuff in it that’s actually really, really dumb

[vivid dust]

sadly

good thing the gameplay and level design held up tbh lol

[versed helm]

@obsidian thistle thanks (:

[last anchor]

P much yeah.
Also Johnson got the short stick; they hit the wall of brutes lead by a Chieftan.

[remote spruce]

UNSC budget

[carmine sleet]

You know how many credits a boulder costs?

[versed helm]

Offensive Bias in new game?

hope so

[versed helm]

Hey all, ik im super late but I need some fact checking on this:

Screen Shot 2019-08-19 at 6.35.42 PM

woop nvm cant post images

anyhow, in the halo infinite trailer we see a glimpse of the UNSC insignia on the pilot and it seems to be one that was in service during the covenant war

does this mean its the pilot from some old ship lets say the spirit of fire

or just 343's design change

and the new logo being retconned

[remote spruce]

Design change

[fair hazel]

are we sure

might be the new one

and no new logo isnt retconned

[lusty glade]

bruh what if master chef is a patoto

[fair hazel]

more serious discussion please

[strong sage]

Erick where’s that logo from? 343 place fam?

[last anchor]

Probably.

wish I could have that on my door

[fair hazel]

good question epsilon

but as you can see, this logo is different

its NOT the old one

[last anchor]

Its a more simplified version, with the eagle closer together and lacking the muscles.

TBH Ive not really been a fan of either of the logos, they just dont really look GOOD.
You need a nice clean logo to work out what exactly your looking at (as Spacedock and Templin institute have both noted), and neither one really works that way.

[fair hazel]

I personally don’t really agree with their assessment

[versed helm]

Yeah, same.

Their assessment was absolute nonsense - entirely subjective, and unpopularly so at that

The UNSC's logo is hugely recognizable and, I think, quite elegant. It's a unique execution of familiar tropes that will undoubtedly eventuate themselves in humanity's real iconography should we expand to the stars.

The new one is a bit visually cluttered but I like the intent 🤷

By which I mean, the Halo 4 style.

[gilded mason]

unpopularly so
What do you mean?

[versed helm]

I've never heard anyone except for those two channels say anything to detract from the UNSC's logo.

The points made in those videos were not ones that can be gauged on any kind of objective basis, either.

[gilded mason]

Oh, the lore people I interact with tend to like the earlier one.

[versed helm]

I'm saying that the old one is great and the new one is fine.

[gilded mason]

You're fine

[versed helm]

And I make no distinction as far as old one goes between new-classic and old-classic.

[fair hazel]

Different ones dénote different eras.

[strong sage]

Does anlace frigates use laser or plasma

[carmine sleet]

Anlace frigates?

Ok, just checked Halopedia, says they use directed energy weapons

[strong sage]

Yosh the new post war frigates fam ^^

But doesnt use shield thou 😦

[spiral jewel]

When it comes to the Covenant side of things, I wonder how many were openly opposed to what eventually became the Human/ Covenant War (meaning they were against the idea of killing the humans or something along those lines)

[stoic hamlet]

Doubtfully any

Fanatic dogma allows one to make a monster out of anyone, anything.

Humanity were deemed heretical (though technically they’d be heathens) and an affront to the Gods.

[feral perch]

The closest we know of would be Sangheili questioning the reasoning behind the war. Why the humans weren’t allowed to join. But this wouldn’t have been open.

[gilded mason]

Yeah, it'd be dangerous to do so when you're not in the more fringe worlds.

[stoic hamlet]

And that questioning wasn’t until super late into the war as well

After they had seen humans fight for years

[feral perch]

I believe in Silent Storm, the Shipmaster does have some internal curiosity.

He brushes it off though.

[gilded mason]

Yeah, he's mostly against pointless cruetly.

[feral perch]

Until his strategy gets delayed, anyway.

[onyx minnow]

What are all your guys thoughts on the new Spartan 2s?

[gilded mason]

From the show?

[onyx minnow]

Yes

[gilded mason]

I'm a bit annoyed. The less SIIs, the better.

[onyx minnow]

Understandable

[feral perch]

Article link?

[onyx minnow]

Just look up halo tv show and it should come up

[feral perch]

I'm reading it

what the heck, isn't this set before 2552?

Why is Cortana going to be in it?

[limpid meadow]

That's the great mystery

Weirder still, the Showtime President said the show would fit the canon, so Chief and Cortana can't meet if that's true

[onyx minnow]

The only benefit from this i think is Vannak and more lore behind Soren but i’ll watch the show either way

[feral perch]

This is literally only because she's part of the main games and rampancy is too difficult to understand for money hungry TV producers

Or maybe it'll be justified by the writing.

But why have these new Spartans when you could have Blue Team?

[limpid meadow]

Maybe the series is told in flashbacks while Cortana is looking at John's service record?

[gilded mason]

I'm assuming so that they can die or have life-threatening stakes

[onyx minnow]

Imagine halo 5 but instead of Fireteam osiris hunting down blue team it’d be grey team

[limpid meadow]

Meh

[gilded mason]

I assume they'd have an Elite buddy as a 4th?

[feral perch]

That could work, considering Grey Team's personality...

But they would most likely just end up joining him.

At this point

I wouldn't be surprised if they encounter friendly Sangheili during the middle of the Covenant War in this new show

[gilded mason]

That'd be A-OK with me lol

[feral perch]

If it's something like Henry

that would be acceptable. But otherwise? eeehhhhh

[limpid meadow]

I'm assuming so that they can die or have life-threatening stakes
And the Spartan-II numbers keep getting more and more messed up :\

[onyx minnow]

I feel like Grey Team would be more interesting to watch then Fireteam Osiris

[stoic hamlet]

I don’t mind the new S-II’s.

As long as they don’t die, the numbers can still work

We still don’t know everyone at Reach, for example

And Blue Team isn’t a set team, it never has been, and I wish more people realized this.

Like, Linda led Green team once.

Joshua led Red Team

Kurt led Blue

Teams aren’t set

At least the Spartan II teams aren’t

III’s are, I believe.

But II’s are nebulous, changing as needed.

[limpid meadow]

I was specifically responding to the idea that the show needed life-threatening stakes.

Blue Team isn’t a set team, it never has been, and I wish more people realized this

Agreed

[feral perch]

Kurt never led Blue

He was only a part of it

[stoic hamlet]

No he led it

Durning the op to inspect the ship yards

And I think a few ops before that.

It was him Fred and Kelly, I think.

[feral perch]

I just read that. I don’t think he’s called Blue Leader anywhere in there.

[stoic hamlet]

And then he also led it on Onyx

But I mean

I suppose that doesn’t count

[limpid meadow]

Point still stands though

[stoic hamlet]

Aye

[limpid meadow]

And John led a Red Team during Spartan-II training if I recall correctly

[feral perch]

He was the overall leader of everyone on Onyx.

[stoic hamlet]

He did during training I think, yeah.

Lost to Kurt most times.

[feral perch]

Kurt led Green during training.

[stoic hamlet]

Yes

But John has led Blue and Red teams separate times

He hasn’t just led Blue, just as Kurt hasn’t just led Green

Joshua has led Gold and Red teams

Linda has led Green

Etc

[feral perch]

I’m only saying Kurt was not a leader of Blue except in a general way.

[stoic hamlet]

Yes he was.

That’s an unnecessarily pedantic point.

He was leader of Blue Team on several occasions.

And the composition of Blue Team changes

Spartans are added and reassigned as needed

[feral perch]

It may be pedantic, but I only know of two possible occasions.

[stoic hamlet]

So the three newbies being in place of Fred Kelly and Linda isn’t something odd or new

Is all I’m saying

[limpid meadow]

I just hope the show communicates that

[stoic hamlet]

Same

Paranosky being part of it surprises me

I’m really hoping they get her right

She IMO has the potential to be a scene stealer.

[remote spruce]

Why didn't they use existing Spartans?

[feral perch]

But that means they’ll be paying close attention to Karen Traviss’ works

Which is not exactly ideal imo

[gilded mason]

But that means they’ll be paying close attention to Karen Traviss’ works
Or earlier things like Ghosts of Onyx

[remote spruce]

Not even talking about Fred and the bois, just ones mentioned once in the early books before croaking

[feral perch]

Parangosky has a light presence in GoO

[limpid meadow]

What about using new Spartans has any relation to Karen Traviss' work?

[stoic hamlet]

But she has one

And it’s one of her best appearances

[feral perch]

Yes.

[stoic hamlet]

Same with Ackerson but I doubt he’ll be in this

[gilded mason]

What about using new Spartans has any relation to Karen Traviss' work?
Regarding Paranosky

[limpid meadow]

Parangosky was in the lore well before Kilo-5

[feral perch]

But which one do you think they’re more likely to focus on?

[stoic hamlet]

I really hope they don’t vilify her/Ackerson if he’s included.

[feral perch]

She’s featured the most heavily in Kilo-5

[stoic hamlet]

Like, they need to make them grey

[limpid meadow]

Just not Kilo-5 gray

Ugh

[stoic hamlet]

Yeah

[limpid meadow]

Ghosts of Onyx gray

[stoic hamlet]

Ackerson’s little monologue thoughts in his chapter of Ghosts were great

Or Paraonsky’s hesitation when he proposed the III’s

That kinda stuff

[feral perch]

She wasn’t a preacher in GoO

[limpid meadow]

Exactly

[remote spruce]

Oh I was referring to an earlier convo about the new sportins in the TV show

So what was bad about Big Maggie in K5?

[limpid meadow]

She's very preachy

[stoic hamlet]

It wasn’t bad

Just a little too preachy

Yeah

[feral perch]

Having a human antagonist is okay, but I would prefer some grand Sangheili general as the main villain.

[limpid meadow]

She tries to pass herself off as better than Halsey despite doing far worse things

[gilded mason]

And pretty hypocritical.

[limpid meadow]

Yep

[gilded mason]

Yeah, that

[stoic hamlet]

Mhm

Whereas in Ghosts she accepted she was a monster but did it anyways for the sake of the species

Same with Ackerson

[limpid meadow]

^^^

And she was somewhat petty in her own way

[remote spruce]

Intentional hypocracy by Traviss or just Traviss doing her thing

[limpid meadow]

Talking about how Halsey had been the only person to cross her and get away with it

[gilded mason]

I feel like it's probably Traviss

[limpid meadow]

@remote spruce If it was intentional, it never came to anything

[remote spruce]

RIP so probably just Traviss being Traviss

[limpid meadow]

The whole book and characters are very forgiving of Parangosky while seeing Halsey as the Devil

See, I wouldn't really call it "Traviss being Traviss" either

[remote spruce]

Halsey the SS gal or whatever they yelled about

[limpid meadow]

She has a very gray portrayal of Adam Fenix in the Gears of War books

It was absolutely fantastic stuff!

[stoic hamlet]

Ackerson’s line about how he wished he could just be a regular infantryman again but has to give up his conscience and morals to save the species is one of my favourite things about Ghosts.

And I really hope ONI is portrayed that way

And not “lol let’s be evil”

[limpid meadow]

Amen

[gilded mason]

Yes, hopefully the actions they take actually make sense.

[limpid meadow]

That's something I hate whenever I see it pop up.

[remote spruce]

Post war ONI can be super evil tbh
War era ONI should be more pragmatic

[gilded mason]

Post war ONI can be super evil tbh
Only if it actually goes anywhere

[stoic hamlet]

Even post war ONI should still be doing it in the name of pragmatism

[limpid meadow]

Like, I had a fairly recent conversation where someone suggested ONI would release the Flood on Earth just for an experiment

Like, how do you even come to that conclusion?!

[stoic hamlet]

I think I saw that

That was so dumb

[feral perch]

I noticed the same vibe from Kurt, especially towards his Gammas. That kind of behavior, making very questionable ethical choices for both the greater good and personal alleviation, surrounded him all his life.

[stoic hamlet]

On Reddit yeah?

[limpid meadow]

Yeah

[stoic hamlet]

Yeah

[limpid meadow]

Or whenever people suggest ONI should have been the antagonists in Halo 5

[stoic hamlet]

That was.......oof

[remote spruce]

lol wat

[limpid meadow]

They could make a great foil, but not the main bad guys

[stoic hamlet]

Oh god don’t get me started

[limpid meadow]

Like, Major Silva was a great foil for Chief in Halo: The Flood

[remote spruce]

ONI would experiment in a remote ship in a Sentinels' back side of the galaxy

[limpid meadow]

Like in The Mona Lisa

[feral perch]

The worst thing was what they hired Kilo-5 to actually do. Come on, don’t play fast and loose with the Arbiter.

[vivid dust]

how would you have felt like if ONI was making Flood experiments on the Argent Moon?

[remote spruce]

Exactly

[vivid dust]

potentially giving a reason for Chief to rebel

[limpid meadow]

@vivid dust I wouldn't have been surprised

[vivid dust]

potentially

[limpid meadow]

But I don't think that would be been a good way to make Chief rebel.

[vivid dust]

could've helped making him doubt or something

[remote spruce]

Chief rebels because he never got his food from Fall of Reach /s

[limpid meadow]

lol

[feral perch]

Halo 5 had so much cut content I would love to know about.

[stoic hamlet]

Chief mutinies because he has to eat another Ration bar.

[limpid meadow]

That's a pretty good reason to rebel

[stoic hamlet]

I actually find it funny when people say ONI are Rogue and need to be stopped.

They always cite stuff like Mona Lisa......except that Agent was actually Rogue.

[limpid meadow]

Key words: that agent

Him specifically.

[stoic hamlet]

The entire reason Red Horse was there was to kill him (and cover it up, tbf, but I mean, kind of assumed they would anyways)

[remote spruce]

ONI is ruthless but it ties into the whole "ends justify the means" thing

[versed helm]

I mean, the other big ONI are out of control arguments are like

The destabilization of the Sangheili

Argent Moon

[remote spruce]

trying to poison alien grain though, that was weird

[versed helm]

The entirety of Hunt the Truth

[stoic hamlet]

Argent Moon was also Rogue

Or at least not under their control.

[versed helm]

The Spartan program, which I personally feel is a poor argument in any context but whatever

[limpid meadow]

Well, out of control and rogue are two very different things

[stoic hamlet]

Reminder that entire Argent Moon happened because one guy couldn’t keep it in his pants.

[versed helm]

I mean like you've got innies bombing kids left right and centre and you're gonna get hung up on 130 kids against potential billions?

[limpid meadow]

And people often confuse ONI being massive pricks with ONI being against Humanity.

[versed helm]

Yeah, sure.

[feral perch]

that was so stupid

[versed helm]

Anti-Halseyism just ain't mathematical

[limpid meadow]

No, methematical is better

[stoic hamlet]

The Halseyism thing I think it’s more it happened too much.

Not that it shouldn’t happen

[limpid meadow]

Yeah