#lore-and-universe | Halo | Page 209

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 1:18 AM

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And y'know - in the face of the Flood, all sentient life are basically the same thing, y'know. Forerunners, Humans, whatever - just people 🤷

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 1:19 AM

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We're all equally edible. 🍽

stoic hamlet Jul 10, 2019, 1:20 AM

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Yey equality!

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 1:21 AM

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Hunters say hi

feral perch Jul 10, 2019, 1:21 AM

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hah

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 1:21 AM

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Yeah, but...they're smelly and have no friends. So there.

feral perch Jul 10, 2019, 1:21 AM

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They do too, the Elites are their friends

hollow elbow Jul 10, 2019, 1:22 AM

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yeahhhhh

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 1:22 AM

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lol

hollow elbow Jul 10, 2019, 1:22 AM

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hunters were loyal to the elites

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 1:22 AM

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Yeah how can you talk crap about the Hunter Elite Friendship Ostral

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 1:22 AM

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Truly, I am the worst Elite.

hollow elbow Jul 10, 2019, 1:22 AM

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lmoa

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lmao

feral perch Jul 10, 2019, 1:22 AM

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Except the Halo 3 Hunters

hollow elbow Jul 10, 2019, 1:22 AM

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wait what? why?

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 1:23 AM

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I know I can tell from your Minor Armor

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 1:23 AM

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wait what? why?
The specific ones seen in-game were enemies.

hollow elbow Jul 10, 2019, 1:23 AM

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ohhhh

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 1:23 AM

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Though there were more around, just...not seen.

stoic hamlet Jul 10, 2019, 1:23 AM

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Hunters just want frens!

Why do you think they’re always in pairs?

hollow elbow Jul 10, 2019, 1:23 AM

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but mainly the hunters were allied with the elites

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 1:23 AM

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Cause Bungie was like Friendly Hunters or nah

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 1:24 AM

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Bungie didn't want players to get confused, which I thought was a bit silly.

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Painting the allied hunters a different color would probably have helped.

hollow elbow Jul 10, 2019, 1:24 AM

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lmao

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 1:24 AM

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Even though Halo 2 has us fight Elites with Elites

feral perch Jul 10, 2019, 1:24 AM

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Like the Phantoms

stoic hamlet Jul 10, 2019, 1:24 AM

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I mean I could see it

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Look how many people still question fighting elites in H4

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Or, did question it anyways

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I don’t see such questions now but they did

hollow elbow Jul 10, 2019, 1:25 AM

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the covenant come under command by an elite

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 1:25 AM

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I was like oh noooooooo! I still see people ask rarely

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 1:26 AM

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Though the in-game discussion on it was just a bit bare.

"I thought we had a truce with the Covenant."

"A lot can happen in four years."

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 1:26 AM

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But it’s ok cause Storm Elites look nasty.

stoic hamlet Jul 10, 2019, 1:26 AM

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I’m still annoyed they even had to include that line

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From John, of all people

hollow elbow Jul 10, 2019, 1:26 AM

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wait what?

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 1:26 AM

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lol

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 1:27 AM

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John didn’t get the 343 takeover Memo

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 1:27 AM

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Along with saying the truce was with the Covenant

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 1:28 AM

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Him saying covenant caught me off guard the terminal right below says the same

hollow elbow Jul 10, 2019, 1:28 AM

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im confused storm elites?

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 1:28 AM

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Elites wearing the Storm harness.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 1:28 AM

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Jul Madama Covenant Elites in their storm gear

stoic hamlet Jul 10, 2019, 1:28 AM

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It was so dumb. Almost as dumb as that line in FUD

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we all know the one

hollow elbow Jul 10, 2019, 1:29 AM

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ohhhh

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i didn't like the fact they took away the plasma rifle

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 1:29 AM

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It was so dumb. Almost as dumb as that like in FUD
Which part?

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 1:29 AM

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lol Cortana can make Chief new Armor but not repair the gash.

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 1:29 AM

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lol

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Yeah, just a bit silly

hollow elbow Jul 10, 2019, 1:30 AM

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lmao

stoic hamlet Jul 10, 2019, 1:31 AM

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I mean.....tbf, I can kind of buy it. Kind of

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I mean it’s dumb but I guess she didn’t have enough?

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 1:32 AM

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Eh, everything got altered, even the shape of the armor that the gash is situated on

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 1:32 AM

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Who builds new armor but doesn’t repair the gash

stoic hamlet Jul 10, 2019, 1:32 AM

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Cortana, apparently

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 1:32 AM

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Lol lol Smartest ai no more

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 1:33 AM

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343 should just go back to their previous explanation of it simply being an art direction thing.

storm flume Jul 10, 2019, 1:33 AM

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How did Chief get the gash in the first place? I don't actually remember. Was it the fall from the Dreadnought?

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 1:33 AM

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Yes

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 1:33 AM

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Hold up

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Are we sure the gash on Chief's armour wasn't gone at the start of Halo 4

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And then returned once he fell into Requiem

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 1:34 AM

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I'll go check real quick

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Oh, not visible.

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But that'd be might coincidental.

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Getting a gash in the exact same place

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 1:35 AM

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Well, luck is a plot device when it comes to Chief.

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🤷

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Btw, even if the gash was there before he fell, I'd assume it canonically wasn't, just like we're supposed to pretend that we're actually running around on a charon-class frigate.

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Or that the pilots in Halo Reach on the sabre mission are wearing vac suits.

storm flume Jul 10, 2019, 1:39 AM

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It's there in the H4 teaser

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If that matters at all

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 1:41 AM

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Darn it doesn’t show his body in the opening I can’t tell

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 1:59 AM

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You know it bothers me that one missile from the dawn can destroy a Covenant Carrier

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 2:00 AM

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That wasn't a carrier.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 2:01 AM

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The ship class of the truth and Reconciliation. Still in 1 hit from a frigate like the the Dawn no way

fair hazel Jul 10, 2019, 2:01 AM

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That wasn't the same class

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 2:01 AM

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Truth and Reconciliation was a CCS.
Whatever the Dawn destroyed was a smaller CRS.

fair hazel Jul 10, 2019, 2:02 AM

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And it was a nuclear missile, when the shields were down

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 2:02 AM

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Yeah, really tiny compared to the TaR

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About 1/6 its size

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 2:03 AM

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Oh really huh explains the different looking beam to. Ok on the model when dying it looks like Chief has the gash already before the fall.

fair hazel Jul 10, 2019, 2:04 AM

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📎 CRS-Corvette_size_comparison.png

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 2:05 AM

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What!? Dang

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That’s just sad

fair hazel Jul 10, 2019, 2:05 AM

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?

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 2:06 AM

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Madama Covenant reduced to those

fair hazel Jul 10, 2019, 2:06 AM

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other ships too but yeah big part made use of those

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 2:06 AM

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I think that class came into existance because the modeler got the porportions wrong when making it, so they just decided to make a new, smaller ship.

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 2:06 AM

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Only needs a crew of about 9.
Great ship if you need to fill out your "navy" with low-cost energy projectors.

fair hazel Jul 10, 2019, 2:06 AM

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i havent heard of such a thing ostral

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 2:07 AM

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I'll see if I can find a source

fair hazel Jul 10, 2019, 2:07 AM

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Please do if you're able to

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 2:07 AM

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I remember hearing it somewhere, but...

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 2:08 AM

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Chief's armor damage in 4 being like 3's pretty much shows the original intention with the armor

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 2:12 AM

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Ah whoops, I had it backwards

hollow elbow Jul 10, 2019, 2:12 AM

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hm?

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 2:12 AM

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Oh, can't link it

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 2:12 AM

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So assuming I have the math right...
A CCS-class is nearly 500 times the mass of a CRS.
Thing is tiny.

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 2:13 AM

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Basically the guy made the light cruiser, but it had a lot of detail, so they just scaled it up to make the CCS Cruiser

hollow elbow Jul 10, 2019, 2:13 AM

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still can hold around 300 personal and troops

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 2:13 AM

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Ok guess I was wrong Chief doesn’t get the scratch until landing I can’t get a better look at him before the fall but he seems to lacks it.

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 2:14 AM

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Where do you see that?

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 2:14 AM

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?

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 2:14 AM

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The lack of scratch

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 2:15 AM

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I watched some Co-op playthroughs but lighting is so dark I can’t get a great view

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 2:17 AM

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Hm. Wonder what Elefen-pattern battlecruiser refers to...

hollow elbow Jul 10, 2019, 2:19 AM

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hmmm??

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 2:19 AM

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Man Storm Covenant in Halo 4 are just depressing

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 2:19 AM

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The CRS class' length is the effective range of a UNSC assault rifle.

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Presumably against body-armoured foes.

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 2:20 AM

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ouch

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 2:21 AM

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Their so poor they can’t even afford the sangheili tradition of Sleeves

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 2:21 AM

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😥

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 2:21 AM

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Well, they did originate from a Sangheili backwater colony.

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And then there was that whole thing where Sali 'Nyon ended up taking over one of Jul's CAS-class assault carriers...

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 2:23 AM

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So backwater apparently they all got a dose of Nuclear fallout to the face causing their Mandibles to Eat into their Eyes. What they don’t tell you is every storm Elite only has 1 year to live before his eyes are fully eaten.

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 2:24 AM

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They need just a small donation for get help.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 2:24 AM

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Quick send your Credit card Information so they can Get Recon to cover their faces.

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 2:24 AM

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In the aaaaarms
of
an angel

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 2:29 AM

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I just wanna give a shout out to the Spec Op Grunts for never Betraying their Elite Brothers @gilded mason

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 2:31 AM

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lol

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 2:36 AM

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Seriously though theirs more differences between a Storm Elite and H2A Elite then Lions And Tigers I hesitate to call them the same Species.

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 2:37 AM

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Could say the same about different dog breeds.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 2:39 AM

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True but if they were any other animal they would be called different species but their domesticated and genetically altered by Humans.

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I mean wolves and Coyotes are more alike then Pitbulls and Huskies yet only 1 pair is called a different species.

hollow elbow Jul 10, 2019, 2:47 AM

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wait

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so theres different species of elites

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 2:48 AM

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Officially, no.

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There's different phenotypic variations of Sangheili, which are kinda like different species, but not quite.

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Species definition is a weird thing to begin with.

hollow elbow Jul 10, 2019, 2:48 AM

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that just wear different armor?

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 2:48 AM

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No, armor isn't it.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 2:49 AM

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Heck Neanderthals are considered a different species of Human no way Those aren’t two different Elite species

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 2:49 AM

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think of it like different human ethnic groups

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 2:49 AM

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There's differences in their body structure, appearance, etc.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 2:49 AM

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No think of it the way Chimera says it but Lions And Tigers.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 2:50 AM

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Neanderthals weren't classified as human. They were just of the same genus

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 2:50 AM

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If Skrimishers are considered their own thing then so should Storm Elites. Then proving my point Chimera thanks for the clarification

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 2:50 AM

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Except... Skirmishers aren't their own species.

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They're still considered a variety of Kig-Yar.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 2:51 AM

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Their sure not called Jackals

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 2:51 AM

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T'vaoan, if I remember correctly.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 2:51 AM

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they're a subspecies of kig yar

hollow elbow Jul 10, 2019, 2:51 AM

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oohhh like the hertics in halo 2?

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 2:51 AM

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No

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 2:51 AM

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no, they were just elites in a different harness

hollow elbow Jul 10, 2019, 2:51 AM

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im so freaking lost

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 2:52 AM

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The heretic faction was just an artifact retrieval team that had broken off of the Covenant after 'Refumee learned what the Halo Array was really for.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 2:52 AM

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Compare a Halo 2 Anniversary and 4 Elite Anthony

hollow elbow Jul 10, 2019, 2:52 AM

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hmmm

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oohhh

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but the halo 4 elite looks a bit taller

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 2:53 AM

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cause they stand upright look at their faces

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 2:54 AM

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Elites from Hesduros aren't described as a subspecies. They're just phenotypically different

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 2:54 AM

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Bungie made Elites hunched in Halo 2 and 3

hollow elbow Jul 10, 2019, 2:54 AM

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true

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 2:55 AM

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Which is dumb in my opinion if I saw them in real life I would think they were 2 different animals

hollow elbow Jul 10, 2019, 2:55 AM

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but they don't speak sangheili

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listen to halo 5 compared to halo 4 elites

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totally different language

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 2:56 AM

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Can't find anything that suggests it's a different language

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 2:56 AM

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Gameplay isn't 100% representative of canon.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 2:56 AM

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Anthony I meant their bodies I’m pretty sure that’s just gameplay

hollow elbow Jul 10, 2019, 2:56 AM

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but the pronunciation, etc. ?

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 2:57 AM

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easily could be a different dialect

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 2:57 AM

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That’s cause of their Brute sounding voices they were given

hollow elbow Jul 10, 2019, 2:57 AM

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im aware of their bodies? but could it be possible they don't speak the same language?

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 2:57 AM

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I believe it was also stated that they spoke Sangheili in 4 because of stringent rules set by 'Mdama, and his waning influence in 5 meant that they cared less and less about those rules.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 2:57 AM

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unlikely

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 2:57 AM

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I laugh when I hear Arbiter talk to the Storm Elites.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 2:57 AM

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what other language would they speak?

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Hesduros elites are extremely zealous so they wouldn't speak english

hollow elbow Jul 10, 2019, 2:58 AM

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'Mdama cared little about Sanghelios

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more about the librarian

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actually i don't think he cared at all about that planet

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 3:00 AM

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'Mdama was more concerned with seizing and taking advantage of Forerunner technology and getting revenge for the death of his wife.

hollow elbow Jul 10, 2019, 3:00 AM

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hmmm? that i did not know?

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his wife you say?

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killed by whom?

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ONI it self it way to secretive

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 3:01 AM

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She was onboard a ship that was destroyed by the Swords of Sanghelios, but he places the blame on humanity.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 3:02 AM

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oh nevermind

hollow elbow Jul 10, 2019, 3:03 AM

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why tho?

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it doesn't add up?

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its like a homicide case that needs to be solved?

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 3:03 AM

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might want to read Thursday War

hollow elbow Jul 10, 2019, 3:04 AM

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I NEED TO READ ALL THE HALO NOVELS LMAO

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oh man, if my dad was still alive hed be so disappointed in me for not knowing a lot about the halo universe

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He was 67 and read the books and comics and played halo 1-2 and 3 also read the books between those too

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so im much much sure he knew way more about the halo universe then i do im still just an apprentice

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sorry didn't mean to kill the vibe guys

fossil eagle Jul 10, 2019, 3:23 AM

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The Sanghelios Civil War is...

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Strange. Very strange. To the point where its events seem completely unbelievable in the greater Halo Universe.

hollow elbow Jul 10, 2019, 3:24 AM

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that's correct

fossil eagle Jul 10, 2019, 3:25 AM

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Karen Traviss should've swallowed her pride and just read a few books or some plot synopses of the games.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 3:28 AM

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I know I’ll get hate for this but I’ve never liked Karen Travis’s books even the Star Wars one.

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 3:28 AM

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Somewhat popular opinion

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Even for the Star Wars part

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 3:29 AM

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Yeah

fossil eagle Jul 10, 2019, 3:29 AM

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The first two in Kilo Five were fun to read, but things really fell apart for me at the start of Mortal Dictata. I can't comment on her work on Star Wars, but she did write the Republic Commando novels, yes?

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Mortal Dictata is the only book I've never read to completion lmao.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 3:30 AM

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Yes those Mandalorian worshipping Jedi hating Omega squad is better then Delta squad books.

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When George Lucas wanted to change the Mandos for Canon she freaked out and abandoned Star Wars

fossil eagle Jul 10, 2019, 3:32 AM

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Let's get back on topic before stickr comes in here and breaks our fingers.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 3:32 AM

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True but based on the Definition Of Phenotypes I don’t see the Elites fitting in it.

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 3:34 AM

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Phenotype just refers to the combination of genetic expression and environmental effects on an organism.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 3:35 AM

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Like when I look at examples of Human Phenotypes i don’t see completely different looking feet.

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 3:36 AM

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I don't think that comparison really works...

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 3:36 AM

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We’re talking attached or unattached earlobes not entirely different facial structures

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 3:36 AM

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Except... human facial structure varies quite a bit.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 3:37 AM

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Not to the degree of 343 Elites

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No normal human has his mouth protruding to his Eyes.

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 3:38 AM

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Reddit Halo

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 3:38 AM

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Humans don't have jaws structured the way Sangheili do, so...

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 3:38 AM

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Neanderthals have less differences to us then these Elites and their classified as a subspecies or another Species

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 3:39 AM

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I think people should take issue with the tongue

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 3:40 AM

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I wish 343 hadn’t tried to use lore to justify everything and just say these are the way we design Elites

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 3:40 AM

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Ok
Who would accept that

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 3:40 AM

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I really don't understand what your problem is with not calling 343's Sangheili a different species.
Species definition is a very odd, fluid thing, and it's even worse if you try to apply it to fictional beings.

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 3:41 AM

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Besides me

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 3:41 AM

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Cause by the general classification of Sentient species by us they count as another species.

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 3:41 AM

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Do they?

fossil eagle Jul 10, 2019, 3:42 AM

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We don't know enough about the differences in geography, climate, and ecology between Sanghelios and Hesduros to make any strong justifications for or against the diversities between them. Sangheili, for all we know, could be significantly more susceptible to environmental factors over a short period of time than us humans are.

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 3:42 AM

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343i by lore, are implying their designs are inferior, except maybe the Kig-Yar

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 3:43 AM

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thinkingchief

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 3:43 AM

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The problem with that is evidently the phenotype is in both planets

fossil eagle Jul 10, 2019, 3:43 AM

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Such as in Halo 5?

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 3:44 AM

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Jul too

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 3:44 AM

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I mean.
It's entirely possible the variation first began on Sanghelios, but wasn't the predominant variation on the planet.

Meanwhile, if you have a relatively small section of the population that is primarily made up of that phenotype that is then relocated, that variation is likely to become more common in their new habitat.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 3:45 AM

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Every other species of Human are just that classified as other species. The problem is the differences are bigger then Mere Phenotypes

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And a lot of other people think so to from what I seen

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 3:46 AM

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Other species of “human” are our genetic ancestors

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That’s not the case with elites from hesduros

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 3:46 AM

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Neanderthals isn’t our genetic ancestor

fossil eagle Jul 10, 2019, 3:46 AM

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Not totally, no. I have 4% neanderthalic DNA.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 3:46 AM

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Neanderthal genome remnants are in the genomes of many humans

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 3:47 AM

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That’s cause of interbreeding

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 3:47 AM

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I think mostly in people’s from Western Europe is where you find highest concentrations of Neanderthal genome

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While people from Asia tend to have 0%

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 3:48 AM

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So again different species that plenty of Humans aren’t descended from

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 3:48 AM

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But it’s not the same as with hesduros

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 3:49 AM

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I mean 343i should've retconned the design but here we are

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 3:49 AM

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You can’t compare the phenotypical differences between modern humans to those of a fictional reptilian race

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 3:49 AM

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Yes it is two Species that developed at the same time. I think you can

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 3:50 AM

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I think you just can’t accept the fact that elites from hesduros are still just elites

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 3:50 AM

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No blargs though

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 3:50 AM

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No where in the lore does it suggest they are a subspecies

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 3:50 AM

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No cause in real life they wouldn’t be

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 3:50 AM

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This is fiction

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They are a fictional race

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Their differences don’t have to follow our understanding of biology

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 3:50 AM

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One that tries to be grounded in reality most of the time.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 3:51 AM

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With humans, sure

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 3:51 AM

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In terms of biology, Halo derives the classifications based on what we know

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 3:51 AM

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So if they were declared a different species right now how would you feel

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 3:51 AM

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I would accept it if it was made official

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Until then I don’t think it’s the case

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 3:52 AM

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Alright good enough for me

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 3:52 AM

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So, the use of phenotype may be incorrect, but there never was an intention to explaining the design

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 3:52 AM

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Phenotype is still correct, though.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 3:52 AM

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The explanation likely came after the fact since people complained about the look of the elites

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 3:52 AM

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It's just that phenotypic variation could be used for... a lot of things.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 3:53 AM

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Similar to chief’s armor

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 3:53 AM

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It's the equivalent of nanomachines

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 3:53 AM

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Which inherently makes these lore justifications shaky but they’re still canon and we have to accept it

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 3:53 AM

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Things don't line up, because it didn't matter to begin with, more of throwing a bone

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 3:54 AM

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I would have preferred if they just said “artistic license” and been done with it

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 3:54 AM

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It's similar to the "nanomachines, son" explanation, just not as farfetched.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 3:54 AM

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But that’s not what happened and complaining about it is futile

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 3:54 AM

#

I can tolerate it but I won’t accept it. If they got retconned out of existence right now I think a majority of people would accept it.

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 3:54 AM

#

They would

#

In a hypocritical way

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 3:55 AM

#

With how intent they are on giving everything a lore based reason, that’s unlikely to ever happen

#

Bungie May have done that, but not 343

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 3:55 AM

#

I'd really rather they not retcon things that way.
Always feels like the lazy way out to me.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 3:55 AM

#

Yeah I don’t actually see it happening 343 tries to keep consistent with lore

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 3:55 AM

#

343i will drop stuff

#

And the lore explanation will be hastily made after

#

That's Halo since 2001

#

"nearly all Skirmishers died on Reach"

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 3:56 AM

#

I don’t think any actual lore source ever said that

#

Unless it was a canon fodder or tweet

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 3:57 AM

#

CIA said it was a misinterpretation of an interview or something like that, if I remember correctly.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 3:58 AM

#

Of course being fair you can’t convince me the Reach and Halo 2 Brutes are the same Species either.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 3:58 AM

#

You’re just a difficult person to deal with in lore regard

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 3:58 AM

#

It was in a bungie.net update thingy iirc

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 3:59 AM

#

I like consistency

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 3:59 AM

#

And it wasn't a joke like the CE pistol explanation

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 4:00 AM

#

It’s like if Clone Armor got Changed by Disney many would be mad.

fossil eagle Jul 10, 2019, 4:00 AM

#

I too like consistency, which is why I despise Halo Reach's campaign narrative.

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:00 AM

#

I mean it did

#

In Rebels

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 4:00 AM

#

What?

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:01 AM

#

Oh wait armor, not the clone design

#

The clone deisgn was changed

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:01 AM

#

Artistic changes are common in fictional works

#

It’s not really that big of a deal

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:01 AM

#

And are supposed to not matter to lore

#

Keyword supposed

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 4:02 AM

#

I disagree it’s a big deal especially when the new design looks inferior

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:02 AM

#

The biggest reason behind the different looks of brutes in halo 2 and 3 is probably the technology and the game mechanics

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 4:02 AM

#

Yeah. Fiction is always in flux. That's why a wiki-style approach to lore can be harmful to your enjoyment.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:02 AM

#

But they’re still the same brutes

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 4:02 AM

#

Wikis are a resource, not a source of canon.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 4:02 AM

#

Halo 3 Brutes are just shaved. It’s not the same as Halo Reach

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:03 AM

#

Reach Brutes are shaved and changed heavily

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:03 AM

#

They’re still the same brutes though

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:04 AM

#

The lore explanation, whatever that was, said there are 2 types of Brutes

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 4:04 AM

#

Heck I’d say the differences are even bigger then the Elites and being a type of Primate seemly they would definitely be classified as a different species due to the more alien Human look of the reach Brutes

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:05 AM

#

Where’s the source for there being 2 types of brutes?

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 4:06 AM

#

I remember there being something about Jiralhanae society primarily being split into two "skeins".

#

Though I don't recall exactly where it's from.

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:06 AM

#

Halo Evolutions

#

So before Reach

#

The explanation uh, explained the differences between fur boys and power armor bois

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 4:08 AM

#

But I personally would be ok with new Elite Designs if they were actually good. Tell me Chimera do you like the look of the Storm Elite Minor.

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:08 AM

#

Imagine if the old UNSC logo got retconned as the logo that has always been there

#

Would you be fine with it

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:09 AM

#

That changed due to legal reasons

#

As did the reclaimer symbol

#

Those aren’t changing back

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:10 AM

#

That's the marathon logo

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:10 AM

#

The old reclaimer symbol, yes

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:10 AM

#

I'm referring to the UNSC

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:11 AM

#

I remember hearing that was changed due to similar legal issues

#

Ie they didn’t have the rights to it

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:11 AM

#

Nah

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 4:11 AM

#

Those aren’t changing back
But the UNSC Logo in Infinite is the old one, if you're referring to the eagle

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 4:11 AM

#

Ok darn that would actually bother me but I prefer the new logo personally.

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:11 AM

#

Halo Wars 2 has the old logo plastered everywhere

#

So no legal issue

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 4:12 AM

#

Huh, never knew that

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:12 AM

#

So then they just made a new logo for the UNSC

#

If they went back to the old then fine

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:13 AM

#

One instance the new logo was on a Blitz card, it was considered incorrect and changed to the old logo on the final game

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:13 AM

#

Would seem a bit pandery, but whatever

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 4:13 AM

#

It's entirely possible that any legal issues that did occur when the transfer from Bungie to 343 happened would have been sorted out in the past few years.

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:13 AM

#

I mean like, full retcon

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:13 AM

#

I mean

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:13 AM

#

With the new logo considered not canon

spiral lily Jul 10, 2019, 4:13 AM

#

They could just say in lore that they’re using old gear

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:13 AM

#

The first time they showed the symbol in halo 4 was on the Dawn

#

Which canonically doesn’t make sense

spiral lily Jul 10, 2019, 4:14 AM

#

did the retcon the old reclaimer logo?

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 4:14 AM

#

To be fair, the Dawn's redesign doesn't really make canonical sense either.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:14 AM

#

Just like how 4’s opening shows a bunch of Spartans with the mod armor

#

Which was later revealed to be due to time constraints

#

Stuff in fiction changes. For the most part i roll with it because it’s not really worth the energy getting worked up over

spiral lily Jul 10, 2019, 4:16 AM

#

I miss Johnson... he was a super cool guy

#

I also miss both Keyes they were super cool too

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:16 AM

#

It's funny after the Infinite trailer, a bunch of people were saying they want the old logo to be retconned back in, while lamenting how 343i wasn't consistent in Halo 5 with Arby

#

Because really, most people don't care about the canon of the design, until the design is disliked

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:17 AM

#

Which is subjective

#

I was fine with chief’s new armor in halo 4 because i liked it and it was familiar enough

#

I think the new look for chief in Infinite is a step backwards and seems like 343 abandoning their artistic vision, which saddens me that they let people crap on them to the point of changing, but im not losing sleep over it

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:19 AM

#

343i are embracing their new vision

#

They like it as much as most fans do

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:20 AM

#

I’d already embraced the new vision back with H4. But w/e, it’s a game

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 4:21 AM

#

That’s pretty true Jungle. I for one love the 343 H2A Elite Design. It’s just as different as the H4-5 Elites but to me it looks actually good. I just want good designs that aren’t horrible looking.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:21 AM

#

Ultimately the depiction is not the main vector of the narrative

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:21 AM

#

See, if Jul was retconned to be the H2A design, not many would say "but that breaks canon"

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:21 AM

#

So long as the story events are conveyed clearly, if the looks change a bit after time then I can still get behind it

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 4:21 AM

#

That would bother me personally Jungle

#

Like Arbiter in Halo 5.

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:22 AM

#

Same, but less about canon and more about "the design works for Jul"

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 4:22 AM

#

But your right

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:24 AM

#

Infinite's time jump is almost a self explanatory in terms of "why did this changed"

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 4:24 AM

#

Of course it’s not just the looks but the voices and physical movements of the H4-5 Elites. I mean I’m not trying to act like Bungie was the best ever over here I just prefer a majority of their design.

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:24 AM

#

Forerunner? Different Halo ring

#

Inevitable Covenant? Different faction

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:25 AM

#

It’s normal to have preferences for design but doesn’t mean the other design is invalidated

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 4:25 AM

#

sometimes I feel alone in this world
as the seemingly one person who actually likes 343's Sangheili

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:25 AM

#

I mean there's probably going to be more context and canon fodders, but the time jump helps

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:25 AM

#

You can like Bungie elites more but it doesn’t change the fact that 343 elites are still elites

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:26 AM

#

For gameplay, Halo 4/5 Elites have great animation

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 4:26 AM

#

Where as I actually like Halo 4 5 Master Chief . They are but I don’t accept it I just live with it.

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:26 AM

#

For cutscenes, big yikes

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:27 AM

#

Living with it and accepting it are essentially the same thing

#

Though if you claim They aren’t the same species then you aren’t really living with it, you’re looking for a justification that suits your viewpoint

urban igloo Jul 10, 2019, 4:28 AM

#

Is there any lore on the H4 - MCC Laso emblem?

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:28 AM

#

?

urban igloo Jul 10, 2019, 4:28 AM

#

That skull and crossbones emblem. Is there any explanation behind it

#

Or expansion of it

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:29 AM

#

Laso isn’t a thing within the halo universe

urban igloo Jul 10, 2019, 4:30 AM

#

So its entirely non-connected? Just an extension of the gameplay

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 4:30 AM

#

Cause their just Halo Reach Animations in gameplay. Halo 4 is just Reach in animations and ai just dumber for some reason. Tolerate means I can live with it but acceptance would mean I’m ok with it.

hybrid pebble Jul 10, 2019, 4:30 AM

#

Is there a multiverse in halo. Like one universe where master chief doesn’t stop the firing of the halo rings?

#

I think it would be interesting if there was

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:30 AM

#

Not within the universe

#

However one theory about gaming is that every time you fail/die/reset checkpoint, you leave that previous reality behind to be doomed without you

hybrid pebble Jul 10, 2019, 4:32 AM

#

Oh that sounds interesting

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:32 AM

#

So a legendary run through halo 2 generates many many doomed universes except for the one where you ultimately finish the game

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 4:32 AM

#

Glad protagonists are SHIFTers.

hybrid pebble Jul 10, 2019, 4:32 AM

#

Then I guess I’ve made many reality’s

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 4:32 AM

#

man think of all the Halo universes where the Jackal Snipers have taken over

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:33 AM

#

Of course, canonically, these alternate realities wouldn’t exist in that way

#

It’s simply a thought exercise for the player

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 4:33 AM

#

Nah think of the world takin over by Rocket Flood

hybrid pebble Jul 10, 2019, 4:33 AM

#

I feel like the only time a alternate universe would be made is if there was multiple outcomes to something that can change their reality

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 4:34 AM

#

Actually, vacuum energy has something on alternate universes

#

https://www.halopedia.org/Vacuum_energy

#

Vacuum energy originates from the beginnings of infinite numbers of alternate realities. When harnessed for power supply, these fledgling universes are drained of energy in their infancy, resulting in their premature deaths.

hybrid pebble Jul 10, 2019, 4:34 AM

#

I think the multiverse theory is best explained in endgame

#

Wait

#

Never mind

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:35 AM

#

That’s silly

hybrid pebble Jul 10, 2019, 4:35 AM

#

Yeah

#

It was because endgame just focused on time travel

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:35 AM

#

Killing alt realities to power stuff? Sounds like something out of DC

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:35 AM

#

@stable schooner a few animations are shared but many of the Halo 4 ones are new

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 4:35 AM

#

The Zero Escape series delves pretty deep in multiverses

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 4:37 AM

#

What branched Timelines makes more sense then 1 singular timeline . True their a few new good one like the Grunts and the Promeatheans of course. I didn’t see any new one for the Elites in Halo 4 though. 5 a couple good ones

#

I won’t lie though as a hardcore Tolkien fan I like a set consistent Canon.

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:39 AM

#

The Halo 4 grunt is a legit example of "wait that's a new species"

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 4:39 AM

#

For a franchise that's had so many authors, artists, and media formats, Halo canon has stayed remarkably consistent.

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:39 AM

#

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/292792533594144768/565364209542496256/elite_roll_2.gif
I don't think these animations are from Reach, maybe the first one?

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 4:39 AM

#

More then Star Wars Lol But it is bigger to be fair

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:40 AM

#

star wars is bigger?

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 4:40 AM

#

Ok second one is new I’m pretty sure. First is pretty common among Reach Elites

#

Yes is that even a question Chimera

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:41 AM

#

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/292792533594144768/561388912430415893/elite_roll_1.gif
This is definitely new

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 4:41 AM

#

Won’t argue against that.

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:42 AM

#

The Halo 4 elites are agile but then the cutscenes are blarg

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:43 AM

#

yeah as halo grows I expect it to suffer more inconsistencies

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 4:43 AM

#

Of course I personally miss the more human movement of Halo 2 and 3 Elites but I won’t lie their definitely fast now in gameplay

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:43 AM

#

even tolkien-verse isn't immune

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:43 AM

#

I understand the focus on the cutscenes given how they matter more than the gameplay, but there's more to it than "hey these elites are slow"

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:43 AM

#

movies totally ignore tom bombadill

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 4:43 AM

#

Movies aren’t Canon to Tolkien

#

You don’t go to a lore discussion in Tolkien bringing up the movies

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:44 AM

#

it's a part of the fiction. It's an alternate imagining

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:44 AM

#

Adaptation?

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:44 AM

#

but it's all umbrella-ed

#

sure, you can use that term

#

game of thrones has it too

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 4:45 AM

#

That’s not Canon and not brought up at all when discussing lore. NonCanon Adaption That does no have the support of the Author

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:45 AM

#

Star Wars has them all beat though with the complete disregarding of extended universe

#

but it's also been around the longest and changed hands in major ways

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:46 AM

#

If one universe is very expanded and is consistent to each other, then I say it's fair to say it's canon tight, even with entries that take place is different universes

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 4:46 AM

#

If I tried to debate in a Tolkien forum and brought up Orc breeding pits or the Flaming Eye I’d get laughed out the Chat for Ex.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:47 AM

#

well that just sounds like like the kind of place to avoid then

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:47 AM

#

Speaking of Star Wars, the similarities between the structure in the RC novels and Kilo 5 are hilarious

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 4:48 AM

#

Nah it keeps the discussion consistent and realistic to the given lore.

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:48 AM

#

Jedi are super bad and Halsey is super bad

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:48 AM

#

there's no excuse for being mean

#

no matter how passionate you are about a franchise

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:48 AM

#

Clones are good no matter what, random ONI agents are good not matter what, literally

#

1 sided moral conflict

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 4:49 AM

#

“Were it so easy” I’ve seen people even on this channel get roasted occasionally

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:49 AM

#

well getting corrected and getting told to leave or shut up are two different things

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 4:50 AM

#

I’m frightened of the day Spartan 2s Get Jedi levels of hate.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:51 AM

#

I don't think that'll occur with Spartan IIs

#

also who's hating on Jedi?

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 4:52 AM

#

Nah to be more clear I meant if you tried to start a discussion using movie lore people just wouldn’t take you seriously and that’s just how it is. Though if you bring up Shadow Of War or Mordor you will be insulted no joke.

#

Every where you go I swear people compare the Jedi to Sith these days.

#

YouTube, Reddit, channels on this Discord. The Jedi deserved to be destroyed, they caused Anakins downfall. They lead Slave Armies in a pointless war.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:53 AM

#

two sides of the same coin

#

both approach understanding the force in incomplete ways

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 4:54 AM

#

Though only one side revels in death and despair

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 4:54 AM

#

They do but comparing Jedi to child killing tyrants is extreme

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:54 AM

#

both don't realize that trying to destroy the other only makes them come back stronger later

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 4:55 AM

#

Some people actually think the Sith are good

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 4:55 AM

#

I mean, trying to destroy Sith is a really good thing

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:55 AM

#

The feud between the Jedi and Sith really has been the cause of every major conflict in SW

#

Not really

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 4:55 AM

#

That’s the Sith always staring something though

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:55 AM

#

trying to destroy sith leads to things like Palpatine, Vader, and the Empire

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 4:56 AM

#

Then do you suggest just leaving the Sith be?

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 4:56 AM

#

Sith Attacked And infiltrated the Republic

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:56 AM

#

I suggest not opening up a vacuum to be filled by a worse threat

remote spruce Jul 10, 2019, 4:56 AM

#

Kilo 5 author considers the Jedi to be moar evil

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:56 AM

#

Things like the Bendu get it

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 4:57 AM

#

if both Sith and Jedi stayed out of Politics their could be peace

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 4:57 AM

#

Bendu was a fence sitter that didn't understand the conflict

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:57 AM

#

the best path to peace in the galaxy would be to simultaneously eliminate all jedi and all sith

#

Bendu understood the conflict and chose to stay out of it

#

he didn't want to tip the scales in either direction unaturally

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 4:58 AM

#

He could afford to. The citizens of the galaxy could not.

#

The Sith literally caused the Clone Wars and then created the Empire.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 4:58 AM

#

But they can’t be destroyed the Force itself has caused that

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 4:59 AM

#

And while the Jedi aren't perfect beings, they try to keep peace

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 4:59 AM

#

Even Anakin caused the Jedi to Ultimately win

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 4:59 AM

#

the galaxy was only put in that position because the jedi beat back the sith in such a way that allowed Plagueus and Palpatine to secretly manipulate the force to create anakin

#

when one side wins, it's temporary, and the other side grows in strength

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 4:59 AM

#

Because the Sith were causing death and estruction

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 4:59 AM

#

And he’s the Chosen one. Until the Sith came back again.

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 4:59 AM

#

Though...this is getting really off topic

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:00 AM

#

the galaxy shifts back and forth between light and dark in such major ways because of the conflict between jedi and sith

hollow elbow Jul 10, 2019, 5:00 AM

#

sup guys back from lunch whats we talking about

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:00 AM

#

if they were locked in perpetual stalemate, the oscillations would be much more mild

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 5:00 AM

#

What is a stalemate to you?

#

For this context

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:00 AM

#

Let’s be real though all in all the Jedi usually take the lead

hollow elbow Jul 10, 2019, 5:01 AM

#

im lost someone fill me in?

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:01 AM

#

just a perpetual, constant war where no side achieves victory for long periods of time

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:01 AM

#

That’s Old Republic

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:01 AM

#

yeah, kind of

#

old republic was probably the time when Jedi and Sith were closest to being evenly matched

#

and thus, light and dark were closest to being perfectly balanced

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:03 AM

#

That balance is worst then a Sith or Jedi victory cause that was constant war.

#

And all in all the Sith has what 30 years of total victory

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:03 AM

#

yeah but when you have one side achieve victory, instead of a constant mild war, you get a major shift in the balance that has to later be corrected in a similar major way in the opposite direction

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:04 AM

#

Took a thousand years though

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 5:04 AM

#

Doesn't have to

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:04 AM

#

but that's how it's been

#

if the Jedi influence hadn't spread so much throughout the republic, then darksiders like Plagueous and Sidious would have never come to be

#

if they had never come to be, a light sider as powerful as luke would have never spawned to stop them

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:05 AM

#

Also Rule Of 2 is honestly pretty trash

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 5:05 AM

#

What? They were trained in secret

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:06 AM

#

Thousand years for a 25 year victory

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:06 AM

#

it's a philosophical way of thinking about the conflict.

#

When one side gets too prominent, the force generates a super powerful being on the opposite side to correct the balance

hollow elbow Jul 10, 2019, 5:07 AM

#

oh star wars

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:07 AM

#

Reminding me in Canon we know little about the Sith

hollow elbow Jul 10, 2019, 5:07 AM

#

okie what about it?

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 5:07 AM

#

When one side gets too prominent, the force generates a super powerful being on the opposite side to correct the balance
Wasn't that only said in Last Jedi?

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:07 AM

#

Yeah and sadly that’s Canon now

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 5:07 AM

#

Doesn't really make sense

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:08 AM

#

when you look back across the history of star wars, it's pretty obvious that's always been the universe's response to imbalance

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 5:08 AM

#

Eh

#

I don't see it.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:08 AM

#

Neither do I

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:08 AM

#

¯_(ツ)_/¯

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 5:08 AM

#

Though...

#

This is off topic

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:09 AM

#

Hey still lore and Universe just of the Star Wars Variety. I mean in Canon our known history starts with Darth Bane Really

#

Though I guess Chimera he technically counts

#

Though back to Halo I’d say regarding Art direction Star Wars is receiving the same criticism as 343

#

Hey at least 343 hasn’t wiped out Years of Lore.

lost field Jul 10, 2019, 5:13 AM

#

Master chief is secretly the didactally

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 5:13 AM

#

Golly

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:14 AM

#

nope

lost field Jul 10, 2019, 5:14 AM

#

He is the big forrunner pizza bagel looking man

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 5:17 AM

#

Is there a description of what the pheru look like out there?

carmine sleet Jul 10, 2019, 5:18 AM

#

The pheru?

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 5:18 AM

#

yeah the little creatures that started the flood

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 5:19 AM

#

Pets of the ancient humans

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 5:19 AM

#

I've just assumed they are like weird cats or something

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:19 AM

#

Speaking of pheru

#

Look at the quote they used at the top of this page https://www.halopedia.org/Pheru

#

What cheeky bugger did that

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:20 AM

#

yapyap

#

obviously

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:21 AM

#

Savage. Is that real

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:21 AM

#

Yeah, it's an easter egg from Halo 5

#

A grunt sitting on a ledge says it

#

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZjGAVONgTg

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:21 AM

#

Oh that grunt by the bored Elite

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:22 AM

#

the Meta Grunt

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 5:24 AM

#

The flood's origin is so interesting to me

#

I love that they are more of an accident than just a thing that just exists

#

nasty creatures

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:26 AM

#

i preferred the Flood back when they were just a misunderstood organism living its life, instead of a revenge-set evil entity

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 5:27 AM

#

I like that as well

#

i dont know about misunderstood organism but i like the simplicity

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:28 AM

#

misunderstood in the sense that what they were doing by consuming other lifeforms wasn't out of spite, but just because that's how they survived

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 5:28 AM

#

yeah that makes sense

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:28 AM

#

they weren't evil; their interests just happened to be at odds of everything else's

#

but now, the Flood is categorically evil

#

which is less interesting to me. i prefer shades of grey

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:29 AM

#

I mean I personally can't say I ever got the sense that they weren't evil.

#

Like maybe for a bit in Halo CE?

#

But then Venus flytrap happened and it was all over

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 5:30 AM

#

they seemed to be portrayed as just sinister in the games

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:30 AM

#

I didn't see the Gravemind as initially evil

#

it was concerned for its survival

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:30 AM

#

I've got a real acute paranoia of things trying to seem nice but actually being evil

#

S'why I always go destroy at the end of Mass Effect 3

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 5:31 AM

#

i could see what you are saying

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:31 AM

#

What about Keyes and the protogravemimd though

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:31 AM

#

closest thing to an evil turn was in Halo 3 when right after killing truth, the flood attacked Thel and John

#

but even that seemed less "betrayal" and more survival interest

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 5:31 AM

#

poor keyes

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:31 AM

#

I mean that's the thing

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:31 AM

#

keyes wasn't consumed out of spite

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:32 AM

#

While they might not have been categorically evil initially

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:32 AM

#

everything was food to the flood

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:32 AM

#

The Flood's methods always made them relatively evil

#

From our perspective

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:32 AM

#

A shark isn't evil because it eats fish

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:32 AM

#

So it doesn't bother me too much

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 5:32 AM

#

i dont like how angry the gravemind gets in halo 3 kinda seems childish

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:32 AM

#

Some of the details surrounding how they initially came to be are pretty goofy

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:32 AM

#

bacteria isn't evil because it infects other things

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:32 AM

#

Could've done without the pheru stuff tbh

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 5:32 AM

#

honestly i like that pheru stuff

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:32 AM

#

Bacteria can also be helpful though

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 5:33 AM

#

makes them seem more misunderstood like chimera said

#

i think

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:33 AM

#

well look at only the bad bacteria

#

or viruses

#

or parasites

#

things we don't like because they hurt us

#

but they don't hurt us because they're evil

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:33 AM

#

I mean bacteria doesn't - as far as we know - turn you into terrifying hideous zombie creatures and break down your biomass or torture you for intel.

#

I would say that's relatively evil behaviour because it's devoid of empathy

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:34 AM

#

if you require an essentially 1:1 comparison

#

look at cordeceps

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 5:34 AM

#

its doing it out of self preservation more so though right?

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:34 AM

#

Once flood gained sentience that belief went out the door for me

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:34 AM

#

Ah but see

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:34 AM

#

I should just make clear that I am playing devil's advocate here slightly.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:34 AM

#

with sentience, the only thing that changes is how you go about surviving and growing and thriving

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:34 AM

#

But y'know, cordeceps - I wouldn't entirely rule out it being an evil entity.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:34 AM

#

it's not

#

it's just a lifeform

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:35 AM

#

I dunno. It destroys and uses without empathy.

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 5:35 AM

#

just a little homie survivin in not so ethical ways

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:35 AM

#

It might be a fundamentally evil thing, or would be if it attacked sentient beings.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:35 AM

#

cordyceps is not malicious in intent

#

evil is not simply the lack of empathy

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:36 AM

#

My argument here is that intent may not make evil, necessarily.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:36 AM

#

Gravemind is evil. It’s like Skyrims dragons

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:36 AM

#

intent does make evil

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:36 AM

#

By nature hostile but with great wisdom some have gotten past that.

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:37 AM

#

Well the dictionary definition of evil according to Google is "profoundly immoral and wicked."

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:37 AM

#

immoral

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 5:37 AM

#

l

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:37 AM

#

not amoral

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:37 AM

#

Immoral means "not conforming to accepted standards of morality."

#

Doesn't mean they have to be your standards.

#

Or I mean, the entity's own standards.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:37 AM

#

an organism just following its biological imperative is amoral

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 5:37 AM

#

true

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:38 AM

#

Then Evil doesn’t exist by that logic

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:38 AM

#

~~Well yeah~~

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:38 AM

#

it may seem evil when it's interests come at odds with your own

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:38 AM

#

~~Evil doesn't exist~~

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:38 AM

#

but it's not being purposefully vindictive against you

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 5:38 AM

#

hypothetically, what if we provided the flood with what it needs to live

#

would it keep trying to get at us

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:38 AM

#

it would never be enough

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:39 AM

#

It'd still go after more. Despite being conscious.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:39 AM

#

the flood is inherently insatiable

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:39 AM

#

As we learned in Halo 2.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:39 AM

#

Or isn’t a concept. Gravemind has sentience he needs to do these things but doesn’t try to stop it

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:39 AM

#

And that, personally, indicates immorality not just from my perspective but from its perspective.

#

You forget, the Flood hasn't been mindless or animalistic since CE.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:39 AM

#

consider this

#

did the Gravemind ever lie?

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 5:40 AM

#

did he? i have no idea

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:40 AM

#

Lying doesn't make you evil.

#

You can tell a righteous lie.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:40 AM

#

The corrupted Precursor did

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:40 AM

#

but lying is immoral

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 5:40 AM

#

it is considered immoral

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:40 AM

#

Or I could shoot you out of bloodlust and tell the truth about it.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:40 AM

#

i'm talking pre-Greg Bear gravemind

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:40 AM

#

Which is effectively what the Gravemind does.

carmine sleet Jul 10, 2019, 5:40 AM

#

I don't recall any lying during the games

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:40 AM

#

consider the flood only before 343

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:40 AM

#

I am.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:40 AM

#

I'm talking to Byzantine

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:41 AM

#

Ah sorry didn’t join in when that was said let’s see

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:41 AM

#

Obviously, yes, now the flood is actually evil

#

I'm not contesting that

#

I'm saying that the iteration of the flood before greg bear was not inherently evil

#

and thusly more interesting to me

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:41 AM

#

At the end of the day, from a morally relativistic standpoint all I'm trying to say is that the Flood isn't blameless or innocent.

#

In fact, if I lived in the Halo universe, I'd hate the flood as a result of what it is.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:42 AM

#

of course you would

#

because it's survival would mean your death

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:42 AM

#

To me, it would be evil, because it is trying to senselessly feed on me and doesn't view me as having rights to make my own calls about what I want to be.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:42 AM

#

but it's only evil to you because it threatens you

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:42 AM

#

Betraying Chief And Arbiter was an evil move

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:42 AM

#

It lacks empathy, and it only hungers.

#

That, to me, is selfishness.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:42 AM

#

are you evil because you eat cows?

#

or whatever else you eat?

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:43 AM

#

From the cow's standpoint, absolutely.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:43 AM

#

but from your standpoint?

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:43 AM

#

But I also don't want to completely assimilate the cows into my being remove their species from existence.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:43 AM

#

that's just because you don't need to do that to survive

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:43 AM

#

And as much as possible, I'd prefer they don't suffer.

#

And the Flood don't have to eat the universe to survive.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:43 AM

#

they do though

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 5:44 AM

#

but they are insatiable

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:44 AM

#

if they don't keep eating, they starve

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 5:44 AM

#

couldnt stop if they wanted to

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:44 AM

#

it's like a culture of yeast

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:44 AM

#

No - a Flood outbreak could easily survive with limited amounts of fresh biomass every few thousand years, judging from the installation 05 outbreak.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:44 AM

#

it will consume until all nutrients are exhausted

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:44 AM

#

And the singular entity that is the Flood - the Gravemind - could do whatever it wanted.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:44 AM

#

doesn't mean it's evil

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:44 AM

#

Write poetry.

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 5:44 AM

#

uh oh

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:45 AM

#

see, you're thinking of sentience strictly from a human perspective

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:45 AM

#

This Gravemind could intentionally leave the flood Dormaint

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:45 AM

#

what it means to be human

#

sentience just means self awareness

#

it doesn't require being compassionate or developing art or things like that

#

that's more culture than sentience

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:45 AM

#

I mean, you can make that point, but I'll continue to make the point that the Flood is effectively one entity

#

That kills limitless amounts of other sentient entities

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 5:45 AM

#

the flood isnt wishing to cause harm upon others just for the sake of it

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:45 AM

#

And is fundamentally selfish

#

Thus fundamentally evil

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:46 AM

#

If you let your hostile nature drive you once Sentience is achieved I say your evil

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:46 AM

#

if a culture of bacteria or a virus gained sentience, it wouldn't change the biological function of the organism

#

it just means the organism would understand what it was doing and why

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:46 AM

#

If he would assault me without compromise I’d call him evil

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:47 AM

#

And then it might understand why it shouldn't. But y'know, sentience is maybe the wrong term. Consciousness is the wrong term.

#

What I'm looking at this issue from is the perspective of people.

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 5:47 AM

#

the flood physically cant be content, right? the gravemind cant stop? or am i wrong

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:47 AM

#

but if the organism refuses to do what it needs to do then it is committing itself to destruction

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:48 AM

#

No, it's committing itself to limitation

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:48 AM

#

I don’t see the proof that he can’t stop. Flood can lie in stasis for thousands of years.

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:48 AM

#

So that other entities can avoid suffering and death

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:48 AM

#

but that stasis is effectively death

#

the flood cannot think in that state

#

has no sense of self

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:48 AM

#

B.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:48 AM

#

It’s meditation

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:48 AM

#

S.

#

BS BS BS.

#

Life is stasis, more or less, for most entities.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:48 AM

#

no

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 5:48 AM

#

not for the flood

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:49 AM

#

stasis on a human level would be effectively brain death

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:49 AM

#

Flood to me were evil once they tried to gain sentience

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:49 AM

#

And the Flood has a clear sense of self.

#

The Gravemind refers to itself as "I".

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:49 AM

#

alive at a biological level but beyond that, nothing

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:49 AM

#

It does things because it feels like it.

#

Why does it speak in rhymes?

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:49 AM

#

Bacteria doesn’t try to become more intelligent

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:49 AM

#

it's life cycle is too short

#

but in a way

#

it did

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:49 AM

#

Sharks don’t eat Humans to gain intelligence

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:50 AM

#

as single celled organisms eventually evolved into humans

#

The Flood is a sci-fi organism

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:50 AM

#

Exactly and Sci-Fi evil

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 5:50 AM

#

wait does the flood have a life cycle or is it infinite?

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:50 AM

#

it's going to have fictional necessities that don't make sense to us

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 5:50 AM

#

so long as biomass is supplied

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:50 AM

#

Extremely long-lived.

#

The FSC can sustain itself for very long periods of time.

#

Potentially through a hibernation-like state.

#

The outbreak on 05 went for thousands of years before it broke out of containment.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:51 AM

#

Gravemind could just asked to be fed. Or raise and breed animals to substain the Flood

somber wave Jul 10, 2019, 5:51 AM

#

Well the forerunners also put some samples for future study

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:51 AM

#

He has the same potential as us more so actually

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 5:52 AM

#

if the flood was supplied sufficient biomass would it die of old age?

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:52 AM

#

the thing about the flood though is its always hungry

somber wave Jul 10, 2019, 5:52 AM

#

They might last longer in the solution they’re contained in

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:52 AM

#

as people we can wait to eat because we feel satiated most of the time

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:52 AM

#

Specifically, Lonk, what happened on 05 was that a containment breach occurred and the monitor decided not to provide any resources to the containment systems.

#

So they just sat there in a stalemate with the Flood for thousands of years.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:52 AM

#

He speaks in Rhymes. Hunger they can deal with for periods of time

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:52 AM

#

but you can't imagine the Flood's perspective because you're not in a perpetual state of hunger

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:52 AM

#

Until the Quarantine Zone was breached.

#

I would argue that an entity that lives in a perpetual state of hunger lives in a perpetual state of evil.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:53 AM

#

so, people in extreme poverty are evil?

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 5:53 AM

#

then all beings are inherently evil

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:53 AM

#

Chimera, that is honestly an insulting thing to believe I meant.

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 5:53 AM

#

and that means nothing is evil

unique rune Jul 10, 2019, 5:53 AM

#

~~from my point of view the Jedi are evil~~

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:53 AM

#

I'm sure I don't need to explain why that is an atrocious response.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:53 AM

#

it's not evil to be hungry

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:54 AM

#

Oof Chimera revealed it my poverty explains my hostile ways.

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:54 AM

#

Alright, I pre-supposed that you meant "lives in a perpetual state of hunger and feels no need to restrain itself for the good of others."

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 5:54 AM

#

the flood is hangry

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:54 AM

#

Hunger itself is not inherently evil.

#

But your whole point hinges on the fact that the Flood is ignorant of the morality of people, and thus cannot be defined as evil by it, right?

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:55 AM

#

Un controlled hunger with Sentience is Evil

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:55 AM

#

but you can only understand "hunger" from the perspective of a creature that undergoes states of satiation and hunger

#

to you, someone who is always hungry can't control themselves because you feel that it's unnatural

#

but let's say someone loses their leptin signalling

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:55 AM

#

My arguments are that the Flood is A) perfectly capable of understanding the morality of people once it reaches a certain level, and B) that just because a thing is ignorant of its evil it doesn't mean it's not evil.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:55 AM

#

they aren't suddenly evil

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:55 AM

#

For the greater good it must be done. Gravemind if he cared would try to find a way

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:56 AM

#

the gravemind doesn't consider diversity of life to be necessarily "good"

#

the only reason we consider it "good" is because it suits us

#

but it suits the Flood for everything to be Flood

somber wave Jul 10, 2019, 5:56 AM

#

^^^

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:57 AM

#

I don't even care about diversity of life myself. I care about empathy and compassion.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:57 AM

#

Heck the Flood once at a sufficient level should try and cure its self or end its hunger. No he considers infection peace and mercy

#

He clearly has his owned warped since of good and that makes him evil

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 5:57 AM

#

the fact that the flood consumes nonstop makes it just a flawed being, just like what created it

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:57 AM

#

From my perspective it is fundamentally clear that trying to understand and not harm the things that live around you is what good is.

#

In a cosmic sense, even.

#

The Flood maybe try and understand, but only to feed and devour and harm.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:58 AM

#

but you do harm things around you

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:58 AM

#

They understand exactly what they're doing to every entity they hurt or infect.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:58 AM

#

unintentionally, but you do it

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:58 AM

#

Gravemind Taunting Truth in Halo 2 help makes me think of him as evil

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:58 AM

#

or at the very least, contribute to the promotion of the harm of things

#

Halo 3*, i think you mean

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 5:59 AM

#

Nope High Charity you mean

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:59 AM

#

Most frequently, without being aware of it. The same cannot be said for the Flood because it is hyper-intelligent near-enough ageless.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 5:59 AM

#

that wasn't as taunting as H3

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 5:59 AM

#

Also, different scales are important. I've never killed another human being.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:00 AM

#

but to the Flood, humans aren't equivalent life forms

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 6:00 AM

#

allegedly

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 6:00 AM

#

From a matter of speaking his taunting in Halo 3 against Truth was kind to the Arbiter

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:00 AM

#

to the flood, humans are like fish

#

you could easily kill a fish

#

esp if it was for the purpose of sustenance

somber wave Jul 10, 2019, 6:00 AM

#

It’s like game on hunting

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:00 AM

#

You don't try and get a fish to kill your enemies for you when they're about to fire a superweapon to destroy you.

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 6:00 AM

#

especially for a hunger that you cant satisfy @humble yacht

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 6:00 AM

#

Gravemind works with the fish to kill other fish. Then he kill those fish that is evil

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:01 AM

#

But since no fish are sentient, we never question whether its ok to eat the fish

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:01 AM

#

I mean, we do.

#

Some of us do.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 6:01 AM

#

I don’t help a fish eat another fish then eat him

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:01 AM

#

most people don't

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:02 AM

#

And most fish aren't spacefaring civilizations.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 6:02 AM

#

Halo 2 at the most but by Halo 3 Gravemind is straight evil

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:02 AM

#

traditionally speaking, humans have been just fine eating animals

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:02 AM

#

This analogy is, I think, not very representative.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:02 AM

#

it only became an issue with culture changes and overhunting

#

but ancient humans weren't evil for not caring about the animals they ate

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:03 AM

#

Like yes, by some objective measure the difference between the Gravemind and humanity might be something like a human against a fish, but there's certain obvious thresholds of intelligence that are immoral to disregard.

#

Fish don't fall in love.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 6:03 AM

#

They also married 9 year old girls ok back then not ok to us.

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:03 AM

#

Or create art.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:03 AM

#

love is a human condition.

#

and to a certain degree maybe other animals

#

but again, the flood is closer to a smart bacteria than an animal

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 6:04 AM

#

Some Animals can experience love. It’s a intelligence thing really

#

Dolphins, Most Primates.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:05 AM

#

the whole idea of sci fi is going beyond what we know

#

love is a condition of beings in reality with high intelligence

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 6:05 AM

#

it makes more sense for it to be a grey area being. Its a little evil and its little bit of self-preservation

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 6:05 AM

#

Heck Baboons kidnap and raise dogs as pets

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:05 AM

#

but in sci fi, human intelligence is not necessarily the apex of intelligence

#

in sci fi, perhaps hive mindedness is an elevated expression of "love"

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 6:06 AM

#

Gravemind definitely has a warped sense of peace and Salvation

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:06 AM

#

again, speaking on the Flood before Greg Bear retconned them

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:06 AM

#

In my head there's potential justification for calling the Flood "evil".

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:06 AM

#

current flood definitely wants to cause pain

#

but pre-Bear flood wasn't consuming the universe to cause pain

#

any pain that was caused was an artifact of resistance

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:07 AM

#

Honestly

#

That phrasing

#

Makes the Flood sound really evil

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:07 AM

#

when a hunter shoots a deer and the deer runs, the hunter isn't evil for having shot the deer

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:07 AM

#

"Any pain was an artefact of resistance"

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How cold can you get

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Nah, the Flood have always been evil in my book

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Get outta here with that misplaced empathy

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:08 AM

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the deer is in pain from being shot, and its sad, but the hunter isn't evil

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I'm not empathizing with the flood

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I'm just understanding that pre-Bear flood wasn't inherently evil

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they weren't malicious in intent

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 6:08 AM

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You know to be fair no one in the original trilogy asked Gravemind not to be infected. Nah once Gravemind in Halo 3 Starts betrayal and relishing in victory and pain he’s evil.

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:08 AM

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Well that's the definition of what you're doing - you're viewing their actions from their perspective to reach the conclusion that they're not evil.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:09 AM

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he never really betrayed anyone

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:09 AM

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Because you've got a morally absolutist definition of evil which involves intent.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:09 AM

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he didn't promise to let Chief live after killing truth

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:09 AM

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Nobody accused him of betrayal

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:09 AM

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all he did was ask to let him help Chief

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byzantine did

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:09 AM

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I accused him of trying to eat the universe and disregard all other sentient life, despite clearly being intelligent himself

somber wave Jul 10, 2019, 6:10 AM

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And he used chief and arbiter in halo 2 to take over high charity

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:10 AM

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And that is an immorality of which he is guilty

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:10 AM

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again, not immoral, but amoral

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:10 AM

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Especially pre-Greg Bear, actually.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 6:10 AM

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Siding with someone then attacking them is betrayal in my eyes . He surprise attacked them and freaks the heck out when Chief goes to High Charity in Cortana

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:10 AM

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Greg Bear gave the Flood a fundamental drive. They're a force of nature, almost.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:10 AM

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post-Bear, it's definitely immoral because the Flood's intent is now to consume all life for the purpose of putting them in an eternal state of pain and suffering

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that's evil

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:11 AM

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But hold on a second... Weren't they created to do it? Constrained to those sets of actions?

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:11 AM

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it's revenge against the Forerunners for the destruction of the Precursors

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and no

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 6:11 AM

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If I asked Gravemind to not infect me and he agreed then he wouldn’t be evil.

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:11 AM

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Wasn't the rationale for their creation an act of vengeance from a wronged civilization?

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:11 AM

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they weren't created with that purpose

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the dust was originally created to return to being Precursors after a time

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 6:12 AM

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^

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:12 AM

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but time and negative emotion corrupted the dust

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leading it to turn the pheru and later ancient humans into the Flood

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:12 AM

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So would you say that the Flood post-Greg Bear could just... stop?

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:12 AM

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if it wanted to

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but it doesn't

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:13 AM

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Nah, now we've switched places.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:13 AM

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it's on a revenge trip

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:13 AM

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It's a product of its circumstances.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:13 AM

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and it's got a bone to pick with all life

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because it was denied life in the past

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classic vindictiveness

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intent makes all the difference

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:13 AM

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Vindictiveness is arguably justifiable if in proportion.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:14 AM

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is it?

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:14 AM

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In this case, it's genocide for genocide.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:14 AM

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that sounds pretty short sighted

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especially since it's not 1 race for 1 race

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:14 AM

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Hey, I'm not saying it's not.

gilded mason Jul 10, 2019, 6:14 AM

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Though genocide against people that had nothing to do with the original wrong.

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:14 AM

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But the Flood's just doing what it's gotta do.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:14 AM

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but it didn't have to do that

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it could have just gone back to being precursors

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it chose to be evil

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:15 AM

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Just like the pre-Greg Bearian flood who evolved to intelligence on their own could have just lived within its means.

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But I guess it had an uncontrollable hunger, huh?

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 6:15 AM

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Gravemind doesn’t try to cure himself thus he’s evil to me. If he spent half his time looking for a cure while infecting I would consider him tragically good.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:15 AM

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not, because in that case, it really was just doing what it was designed to do

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:15 AM

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A little like an uncontrollable need for revenge, ingrained by circumstance.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:15 AM

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the only difference being how smart it was while it was doing it

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:16 AM

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Chimera, this discussion has made it seem to me like your argument against the post Greg Bearian flood stems probably from a subjective dislike of the new story elements, not on the basis of morality.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:16 AM

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you can't understand the pre-Bear Flood's hunger because you've never experience that type of desparation, that constant need to feed

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:16 AM

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The only thing that changed fundamentally are the circumstances and the nature of the biological inevitability in question.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:16 AM

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those are big changes

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 6:17 AM

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uh oh

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:17 AM

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C'mon, Byzantine.

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Find a more suitable analogy.

wraith galleon Jul 10, 2019, 6:17 AM

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frank

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 6:17 AM

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Ok too far but you get my point

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:17 AM

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keep it clean

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 6:17 AM

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Same logic

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:17 AM

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biologically, any comparison of human hunger to that of the Flood is insufficient

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because humans do not biologically require constant stream of nutrition to function and grow

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we can eat like once a day and function perfectly fine

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 6:18 AM

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Not when this Bacteria has gained Intelligence and Emotions from Humans

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:18 AM

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a bacterium cannot

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:18 AM

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And any comparison of the human need for vengeance to the purpose the Gravemind was given by what befell the dust is also insufficient.

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The Gravemind is defined by its need for revenge.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:18 AM

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a smart bacterium still needs constant nutrition for cellular activity

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:18 AM

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Just it was, apparently, defined by its hunger.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:19 AM

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revenge and hunger are two very different properties

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 6:19 AM

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If Gravemind didn’t have emotions I would agree but he does.

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:19 AM

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Well, they're both sensations triggered by biochemical responses in the human body.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:19 AM

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revenge is purely psychological

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hunger is physiological

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:19 AM

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On the Gravemind's level they're probably more an instinctive impulse.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 6:19 AM

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He relishes in his victory. A real neutral creature wouldn’t feel satisfaction

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:20 AM

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No, revenge is a part of anger though.

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Revenge is a motivation that stems from anger or grief.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:20 AM

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anger is purely psychological'

hybrid pebble Jul 10, 2019, 6:20 AM

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Just like a Jedi

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:20 AM

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Psychology is dictated by biology.

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Probably.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:20 AM

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animals don't seek revenge

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:20 AM

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Potentially?

hybrid pebble Jul 10, 2019, 6:20 AM

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Anikin

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:20 AM

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not in the same capacity as humans can

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 6:21 AM

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Animals don’t feel satisfaction like Gravemind.

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:21 AM

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I'm not an expert on pack behaviour, but I can see eye-for-an-eye attacks playing out between packs of hunters.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:21 AM

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yes, in the midst of an altercation

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:21 AM

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Human beings wouldn't conduct revenge if we didn't get angry.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 6:21 AM

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And it of course depends on the animal

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:21 AM

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if you try and steal a lionness's cub, she's gonna try to stop you

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but if you take the cub and get away, the lioness isn't going to stew and seek you out to kill you

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:22 AM

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Maybe I'm anthropomorphizing but I think she might.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 6:22 AM

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Cause that Lion isn’t intelligent enough

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:22 AM

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And if she doesn't, she's probably not intelligent enough to make the connections.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:22 AM

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you're anthropomorphizing, yes

hybrid pebble Jul 10, 2019, 6:22 AM

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My brain is expanding when I’m read this chat

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 6:22 AM

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Gravemind be feeling that vengeance in Cortana and Halo.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:23 AM

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that wasn't vengeance

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that was fear

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:23 AM

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Who are you to say?

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:23 AM

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anger generated from fear of death

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:23 AM

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🤔

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:23 AM

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once the Gravemind learned that she had the Index, he got mad

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:23 AM

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But point, though - the Gravemind doesn't exist in the same neurological framework as we do.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:23 AM

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because he knew what it meant for him

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 6:23 AM

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And anger. He didn’t know Chief was trying to kill him he knew he wanted Cortana

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:23 AM

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So if it experiences hunger in this endless, fundamental way that you believe precludes it from being evil

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Then it must experience its need for vengeance differently too

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Right?

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:24 AM

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no

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because again

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vengeance is not a necessity for survival

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:24 AM

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Well neither is consuming the entire galaxy.

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 6:24 AM

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He also gets angry at truth for arrogance.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:24 AM

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post-Bear Flood could eat the whole galaxy without the intent to get revenge and it would be different

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 6:25 AM

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In Halo 2

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Flood shouldn’t care about arrogance

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:25 AM

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And it is possible that we're somewhat oversimplifying the post-Greg Bearian Gravemind by attributing its motivations purely to vengeance.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:25 AM

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yeah because, Truth's arrogance was promoting the one action that would lead to the Gravemind's demise

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:25 AM

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I mean, for one, does it not still feel the hunger of which you speak?

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:25 AM

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i dunno

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bear didn't really go into that aspect of the flood in his imagining

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 6:26 AM

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Nah he was saying the flood couldn’t defeat them not about the rings in that convo so not true

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:26 AM

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Also by-the-by, you're making out like all the Gravemind's outbursts of anger are these animalistic, instinctive things

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They're not

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It chooses its words carefully and says what it feels like saying

stable schooner Jul 10, 2019, 6:26 AM

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Exactly

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:26 AM

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It is clearly very intelligent and beyond animalistic imperatives.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:27 AM

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Bear wrote that when the Primoridial joined the Flood hivemind (effectively becoming the first Gravemind), he left the Didact with the knowledge that he would consume the galaxy in a writing mass of pain and torment

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:27 AM

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Aside from, of course, what is fundamental to its nature.

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Well that's true, but it's not the be-all-end-all.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:27 AM

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so post-Bear Flood is using the consumption purely as a means to an end

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:28 AM

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So just to be absolutely clear, you don't see that end as in any way comparable to the need to survive you attribute to the pre-Greg Bearian Gravemind.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:28 AM

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consumption is the weapon by which the Flood will enact its revenge

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:28 AM

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You don't see it as a fundamental impulse of any kind.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:28 AM

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no I don't

versed helm Jul 10, 2019, 6:28 AM

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You just think that the Gravemind made up its mind to be a bit of a killjoy, I suppose.

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And that he might be able to be talked out of it.

humble yacht Jul 10, 2019, 6:28 AM

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or at least, if vengeance is impulsive in post-bear flood, it's a different kind of impulse

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one that can't really be defended as anything but immoral since vengeance is inherently designed to inflict pain on another for the pleasure of it