Like in that
#lore-and-universe
versed helm
storm flume
Now that you mention it yeah how the hell were they planning on breaching? Nothing less than MAC rounds and high-explosive ordinence (typically nuclear) really have much of an effect on the hull, right?
versed helm
Well I've got no clue.
We'll assume that the carrier's shields were brought down from the assault on the orbital defence grid - there might be dialogue to that effect somewhere.
So you've got a bunch of ODSTs trying to land on the hull (which doesn't seem like it should work because of the hull's surface) and then fighting their way inside
Maybe they had the mother of all breaching charges?
storm flume
And/or they've identified some potential weak points by this point in the war
For a second I teased the idea of a MAC barrage but I don't see why you would want to do that after your ODSTs are already deployed
And also potential damage to the city below
versed helm
Well they didn't want to kill Regret
Or did they?
Didn't they want to capture him at that point?
A-la Red Flag?
carmine sleet
They more than likely wanted Regret alive considering that they could've tried to use him as a bargaining chip against the Covenant
gilded mason
How little they knew, eh?
carmine sleet
It's only when they found out Regret wanted to light 05 that Miranda and Chief decided to just kill the guy
storm flume
Yeah, they were even talking about capturing him at the beginning of the first mission to Delta Halo right?
modest marsh
@versed helm C-12 would’ve done the trick
A satchel can penetrate 3 meters of battleplate
modest marsh
Who knows, honestly
versed helm
"Master Chief, get aboard that carrier, secure the Prophet of Regret"
Yeah, can't believe I forgot that
modest marsh
The yields Nylund attached to certain explosives are a bit....bizarre
storm flume
3 meters of UNSC battleplate, do we know how much stronger Covie plating is?
modest marsh
I think Nanolamite is generally regarded weaker per volume than shipgrade titanium-A
versed helm
?!?!
modest marsh
Frankie said something to that effect on NeoGaf
Though understandably that might be a questionable source
I would sooner assume parity
gilded mason
A bit.
modest marsh
Well also, let’s not forget that for whatever reason the body armor used by Covenant infantry does a pretty poor job of resisting ballistic fire
versed helm
Tbh there's probably not that much difference between human supermetals and Covenant supermetals in Halo
Maybe Covenant ones have had more time to focus on being heat resistant
But they're just different coloured nanocomposite super-strong handwavium, really
gilded mason
Sounds likely.
versed helm
As for the Covenant's body armour not being that great at resisting ballistic fire - that's something you can attribute to all body armour in Halo.
As a rule, Halo body armour will easily stop one or two rounds from most anything rifle sized, so close quarters combat with ballistic weapons is a matter of blasting your enemy repeatedly
Evidently plasma weapons work a little differently
Like, if what we see in-game is anything indicative a grunt's protection will still absorb a fair bit of fire from a high-caliber assault rifle, it's just that you rarely only shoot them once or twice
modest marsh
Eh
The Chief and the others opened fire with their MA5B assault rifles—a full automatic spray of fifteen rounds per second. Armor-piercing bullets tore into the aliens, breaching their environment suits and sparking the methane tanks they carried. Gouts of flame traced wild arcs as the wounded Grunts ran in confusion and pain.
modest marsh
Yes
vague scroll
Carbine is considered ballistics
storm flume
Right
storm flume
Well Needllers are more explosive but I totallly forgot about brute weapons lol
modest marsh
Needlers and Needle Rifles are still deadly upon penetration
versed helm
And remember that Mama Lopez's chestplate absorbed multiple AR rounds at near point-blank
modest marsh
Yes, that’s an oddity to be certain
vague scroll
@versed helm could I offer an alternative to the concern about punching through hull plating? What about the softer city-style zones that make up the spinal sections of assault carriers?
storm flume
Yeah I'm dumb sorry for the stupid question
vague scroll
Halo Wars 2 shows sentinels punching through towers in those CAS sections at speeds possibly comparable to that of HEV pods, so at the very least, they probably could make a decent surface landing.
versed helm
Alright, fair point.
It'd be risky, I feel.
But it was stated to be a "near-suicidal" mission.
vague scroll
it definitely seems like a last ditch effort to me so I definitely agree that it was highly unorthodox and likely suicidal. Still, I think if they were targeting the city-sections - they had a much better survival chance in that case.
inner basin
Well they could’ve been landing at the bottom and then board via grav lift. They knew troops were pulling back so that would mean that the grav lift was active. Breach through the units pulling back, hop in grav lift, there’s your access. I think this is more likely to be the case because it looks pike the drop pods were always landing beside the ship instead of on top if it. Also when a ship is deploying troops, its shields are active, prime example the Covie ship that was blown up at the Battle of Fumirole
As for casualties I would say a lot died but there would certainly be more survivors than Alpha-Nine
versed helm
Buck did say "Captain? Fifteen clicks off the deck" at one point.
The thought of the ODSTs actually going for a bypass on the carrier only to land underneath and assault the grav lift did occur to me, and it's certainly a possibility, but it doesn't seem like it was the intent.
vague scroll
it was also moving while they were beginning the transit down to the carrier and yet they seemed to still proceed with the mission anyway so that suggests they were still intent on hitting the moving target.
last anchor
They were gonna land and board it from the roof I believe
Remember, this is a five kilometer long target. Plenty of space to land
vague scroll
Looters was concerned about the HEV pods not being strong/fast enough to breach through the ship's plate armor so they could insert or breach the ship.
versed helm
Not even necessarily breaching it either - just landing stably on a surface that doesn't have any give. Landing on hardened armour plating would be a lot rougher than earth or concrete, I imagine, because the pod couldn't really sink the little bit it does typically.
It's just a straight-up dead-stop, metal clanging harshly on metal. I guess the pods are weighted so that they wouldn't topple on their side, but the landing would be really harsh and nothing's actually anchoring the pod down so I can envision it maybe skidding off a sloped surface.
Personally I'd perhaps feel safer taking my chances in pelican or even attempting a jet pack descent.
Actually forget the pelican - ships have point defence xD
modest marsh
What if the pods have really strong magnets
unique rune
I was gonna ask if magnets would even work, but then...
What exactly is nanolaminate plating?
inner basin
I think it would be safe enough to say it is a metal, but whether it is magnetic or not is another thing.
unique rune
For whatever reason I always figured it was more like a a ceramic type of thing.
inner basin
It could be a ceramic but I believe it has been described as a plating which makes it less likely so (but ceramics can be described as plating too)
vague scroll
Nanolamaniate is more a catch all term for a family of combined metallic materials
unique rune
I think the reason I'm thinking of a ceramic-type (or rather, non-metallic) material is that the Sword Ghosts's REQ card description talks about nanolaminate blends, which isn't really a word that I associate with metals.
vague scroll
Kind of like carbon fiber or Kevlar but the molecular composition is totally different.
It’s a real material
But what the Covenant version is made up of is unknown
modest marsh
We know at least some Covenant materials are magnetic
vague scroll
Metal can blend. We have alloys for example.
modest marsh
Weapons adhere to armor
vague scroll
Alloys is the wrong term,can’t remember the right term though
inner basin
Where to we know that some Covenant materials are magnetic, Magg?
vague scroll
Oh wait, alloy is right it seems...hmmm
unique rune
Yeah, I know metals can be blended, it's just a weird little personal thing for me.
inner basin
Just asking for a source as I don’t remember
inner basin
I guess I just don’t remember seeing the weapons being magnetised, unless it explicitly says it under weapon descriptions.
modest marsh
In cutscenes, when they’re on their hips?
vague scroll
That’s not because Covenant materials are magnetic. That’s because they’re designed with magnetic components to let them magnetize to armor.
The UNSC weapons are the same way.
inner basin
Yeah in the Hunt the Truth trailers we see it with both Locke and Chief in both trailers when the grab their Magnums
vague scroll
Magnetic weapons have been a feature since Halo CE with weapons locking to the body
fair hazel
be careful with speculation
so you dont like, believe things wholy when they are speculation
inner basin
We at least can agree it is in Halo 3 when Chief puts his AR on his back during the ending cutscene of the Storm
versed helm
There are elements of speculation you should be careful with
This is not one of them
If Mark V armour doesn't have the capacity to magclamp then it is the exception to the rule not just of MJOLNIR, but of UNSC combat gear in general.
Even in Halo Wars we can see weapons being magclamped to early war Mark IV.
last anchor
Pretty sure all MJLONIR can magclamp, and it looks in-game like many Marines can too. I dont see slings
versed helm
Slings are sometimes described in the books - The Cole Protocol, referencing a Marine with a BR55, and The Flood come to mind.
But The Flood is The Flood.
Brilliant but flawed.
And that Marine may not have been wearing full battle dress.
inner basin
What about Johnson’s Marine BDU in H2 at least? I could swear that when they are getting the index and he goes to grab his BR that the magclamps push the weapon upwards, but I could be wrong and it could be a weapon holster instead
versed helm
Or, more likely, just had a preference.
In H2A he absolutely does.
We should check classic though.
Well in classic he just summons his BR out of slipspace
last anchor
Miranda does the same with ehr second SMG
inner basin
RIP duel wield 😢
gilded mason
For the best.
inner basin
I dunno, it’s pretty fun to mow down Covies with duel SMGs
But why did that stop anyways (in the lore). Was it just for gameplay or can lore give an explanation? Was it too much too produce all that ammunition to be mostly wasted?
(Due to the inaccuracy)
gilded mason
Things don't have to be explained in lore.
versed helm
Gameplay mechanics aren't, uh, indicative of what can and cannot be done in the Halo universe.
There's no reason why you couldn't dual wield ARs
As a Spartan, I mean
inner basin
I know but I was just wondering if there was a possible lore explanation
versed helm
You don't really need one xD
gilded mason
Dual-wielding as a mechanic just made some weapons too weak.
versed helm
Depends how good you are at multi-tasking, how intuitive electronic targeting is, and how good the MA5-series recoil reduction is xD
inner basin
But it looks cool and that’s what some people want, Ostral
gilded mason
People want a lot of things.
inner basin
That’s true, but there are many more reasons besides that, that’s only one reason I came up with
versed helm
I hear some crazy cats want a game entirely from the perspective of a Sangheili warrior.
gilded mason
I hear some crazy cats want a game entirely from the perspective of a Sangheili warrior.
I wonder who wants something like that! 😋
inner basin
I’d rather not personally. It strays too far from Halo’s identity
gilded mason
Halo's an entire multmedia universe now.
inner basin
After 5 Halo was having an identity crisis, imagine after a game based on a Sanghelli PoV
gilded mason
And a game from a Sangheili POV is pretty normal-ish, anyway
inner basin
Not really
versed helm
I mean, if they can make a game where you play as a Marine without compromising Halo's identity, they could do one with you as a hinge-head.
gilded mason
Exactly.
versed helm
And as I think Ostral implied, they wouldn't really need to buff Elites as hard as they did ODSTs either xD
versed helm
ODSTs punching through wraith hull plating intensifies
inner basin
But they haven’t made a game where you play as a Marine (entirely)
gilded mason
But they haven’t made a game where you play as a Marine (entirely)
ODSTs
inner basin
Hence the entirely. They’re slightly different
versed helm
ODSTs are members of the UNSC Marine corps and are absolutely Marines, by their own confession.
gilded mason
Not really. (To Beast)
versed helm
Only thing separating Rookie from Chips Dubbo is that Rookie has more titanium on him.
gilded mason
Not in ways that really matter
inner basin
Well I said slightly, without context, point made
versed helm
Sure, ODSTs have additional training, more combat experience, probably are a lot more psychologically self-sacrificial and mentally resilient on average.
And they have better gear.
But they're just un-augmented humans, and any time you take control of a character in a video game the implication is that they're exceptional.
agile lotus
I would mention a mod as a good baseline for a Sangheili-centered Halo game, but that’s not allowed here, so I’m just gonna make implications.
gilded mason
but that’s not allowed here
Huh, really?
agile lotus
Anyone who’s interested in The Vengeful ‘Vadam should know what I’m talking about.
inner basin
If it was like Halo 2, it would be okay but I feel that if your not playing from the good side it’d be a disaster. People like to be heroic, but that’s all I’m saying
I feel like a Headhunter game is a safer bet
versed helm
Listen, I'm about the most gung-ho pro-UNSC Earth-first Halo fan you'll ever meet
gilded mason
Swords of Sanghelios, then
versed helm
And even I think it's an overgeneralization to paint Elites as never heroic.
agile lotus
From their perspective, they were being heroic.
versed helm
Personally, I just want to know a little more about what makes hinge-heads tick.
I'm interested in Covenant politics and tech.
gilded mason
Indeed
versed helm
I want a more recent insider perspective.
gilded mason
I want more insight into their cultures and all that
inner basin
I just wouldn’t be interested playing as a split-jaw (maybe it’s just me). I always preferred a Spartan and don’t miss Elites in MP. I just feel a safer bet of a side game is either another ODST game or a Headhunter game. They seem to have a lot of interest
agile lotus
That’s why we’re thinking of it as a side-game.
So everyone doesn’t have to play it, just like Halo Wars.
versed helm
If you don't feel obliged to play Halo Wars
inner basin
Your missing the point I’m painting, Cerebral
versed helm
You are my enemy
gilded mason
And really, it would do Halo some good to break out a bit more from the (almost) consistant UNSC POV.
inner basin
Well that’s what people are used to
agile lotus
The only real perspective we had of the Covenant’s POV was Halo 2.
versed helm
Well there's a few decent books
Still gotta stop re-reading TFoR so I can get to Broken Circle xD
inner basin
It’s been integral to Halo’s identity so far, Ostral
agile lotus
And believe me, without it, the Covenant would be much more bland and boring throughout the entirety of the rest of the series.
gilded mason
It does not have to be.
agile lotus
Awakening The Nightmare also deviated from the UNSC-focused perspective.
versed helm
Man, dudes be like "UNSC is bad, Spartans are all independent now they just stay with the UNSC to help humanity and be with one another"
agile lotus
Then are you dismissing Arbiter’s importance to Halo 2?
versed helm
Then other dudes be like
"Never dab on the olive drab"
I'm extremely proud of myself for that
inner basin
It was minor. If Arbiter was in H2 more than Chief it would be like H5 all over gain with little Chief, Cerebral
gilded mason
You don't gotta buy the sidegame with aliens if you don't wanna. But variety can be good.
It was minor.
Arbiter's importance in H2?
inner basin
It’s a niche though, why would they cater to a niche if it’s unprofitable?
inner basin
HW isn’t in the FPS market. Besides I don’t see many requests on Waypoint and I’m on there pretty consistently
I see another ODST side game or a Headhunter side game more than that
agile lotus
You’re acting like a Sangheili-based game would be as bad as 5. It’s literally just the gameplay with a different context.
gilded mason
You’re acting like a Sangheili-based game would be as bad as 5. It’s literally just the gameplay with a different context.
Personally, I'd like a Sangheili game that's more RPG-like.
agile lotus
Consider it like ODST.
versed helm
I'd like a Halo game that's more RPG like
But then again I just finished replaying Mass Effect so maybe I ought to cool off
gilded mason
lol
agile lotus
Different context, different character style, different aspects of gameplay.
inner basin
Look I’m just being realistic. I do understand the world of Business as it’s something I study and I don’t see an Elite based game realistic.
inner basin
Look it’s unrealistic to happen, at least for the foreseeable future
gilded mason
I agree with that argument, at least. 😋
inner basin
That said it can change, but unrealistic for now
agile lotus
I know any sort of side game is unrealistic for now, but it’s nice to think about it.
inner basin
If that makes everyone happy, I rest my case
versed helm
We'll just have to see how it pans out after Infinite
agile lotus
Basically. And with any hope, the Elites’ design will revert to pre-Halo 4.
gilded mason
I imagine it will.
versed helm
The lore nerd in me wants to see both phenotypes represented
And the lore nerd in me is me so that's what I want
gilded mason
Though I do hope something more along the lines of CE Elites gets more representation at some point.
versed helm
Jog my memory - how are they distinct?
agile lotus
I wouldn’t mind if 343’s version was either kept to the back or kept as enemies, the Bungie versions being used as allies.
versed helm
They've got slightly different proportions, sure, but so do humans from game to game
gilded mason
Jog my memory - how are they distinct?
Pretty thin and lithe, can fully shut their mandibles in front, can straighten their necks, and other stuff I'm forgetting.
versed helm
Are you 100% certain they're canon?
gilded mason
I sure hope they are.
versed helm
Like, I know everything's supposed to be canon till proven otherwise, but a phenotype is a big thing
gilded mason
Phenotypes are pretty 'modular'
versed helm
Well, I'll take your word for it.
Shame the diversity of Halo'll probably never be represented in the same game.
gilded mason
Indeed
versed helm
I mean, I guess it's more about how 343 have chosen to canonically deal with iterative appearances, but the approach they've taken just isn't really represented by any source.
Everything's such a narrow slice as far as every facet of the aesthetic - and for obvious reason, that's the nature of games.
Like, logically speaking, everything you see when you play through a level would canonically be ridiculously contrived.
gilded mason
Yup, somebody's gotta model, texture, and animate all that stuff. And that takes time.
versed helm
A bunch of Marines in identical BDU, all identical alien phenotypes, all identical equipment, same variants of vehicles-
Just now how it actually is, apparently.
agile lotus
Just keeping it like Halo 3, and maybe cleaning up some of the Halo 4 design, would do just fine.
versed helm
Oh please god no
I'd be content if the UNSC could be the Reach UNSC forever
If I only ever had to look at Halo 3 Marine body armour again I'd probably go postal
It's not bad but there's soooo much better
agile lotus
For the Elites.
Also, the Reach UNSC is the Army Troopers, not Marines.
Probably best to go with H2A for Marines, then.
gilded mason
For the Elites.
Eh, H3 Elites felt a bit too bulky for me
agile lotus
H2A, again, then?
gilded mason
CE. 😉
agile lotus
I prefer Halo 2 Anniversary/Halo 3 looks for Elites.
versed helm
In Reach, UNSC infantry who are members of the Marine corps appear in the final level
I call them Marines generically because it's easier to communicate
And also, I don't believe I ever specifically referred to "Reach Marines" at any point, did I?
By-the-by Marines also technically pop up in New Alexandria and on the return to Sword Base in the form of ODSTs, who are very much Marines.
But point - when you're being introduced to the fireteam mechanic in Reach the tutorial pop-up refers to troopers as "Marines". It's acceptable to refer to all friendly AI as Marines in Halo, just out of tradition.
Though now you've reinforced my neuroticism on the matter so I'll be painstakingly accurate going forwards xD
agile lotus
Still, there is a visual and distinct difference between the standard Marines of Halo 2 and 3 and the Army Troopers of Reach.
ODSTs are a special branch and have their own design.
versed helm
From my interpretation, "special branch" would be problematic wording, since the Marine Corps is a "branch".
You're probably more looking at an array of battalion-strength units with a special designation - ODST - that potentially have a singular unified specialist command, like a modern military does for its specialist units - though we don't know for sure.
But it's a moot point on the visual design - judging from what we've seen, we can very definitively interpret that in Infinite we'll be getting UNSC BDUs that are a blend of elements from Reach and 3 and a bit of 4 DNA if I'm not mistaken.
The infantrymen from the announce trailer had a BDU that heavily resembled the Reach one but with Halo 3-esque greaves (very notable from the low shot behind) and a bit more of a Halo 4-esque vest, worn beneath the chest plate. Also different and much less prominent pauldrons.
Brohammer's chestplate is very Reach-esque but seems to be a sort of compact version that has a much less encompassing soft under-layer than the vests we've seen, and in his pelican there was a distinctly Halo 3-style CH252.
Considering that we'd already seen infantrymen wearing a more Reach-style helmet, the appearance of the 3-esque helmet was very curious indeed.
Here's hoping they're going to take a Halo 4-esque approach in terms of making a varied array of plating and gear designs (that are unified by some common elements, like the standardized vest in Halo 4), but keeping the coloration consistent and falling back on more classic shapes.
Seems like a lot of effort for AI friendlies, but hey, they did it in 4.
Well, that's my "gone ham" moment for today.
vivid dust
the Halo 4 Marines would look a hundred times better had they all been greenish like in H2 and 3
cunning path
True that
stoic hamlet
Tbf, some of them were green
carmine sleet
The ones seen on Ivanoff in black looked really nice
warm wigeon
Halo 3 marine armor was the most solid looking
stoic hamlet
I think you mean Reach's marine armour because it can work in a vacuum.
versed helm
Let's just pretend that Reach's EVA segments involved actual EVA suits, huh?
And honestly, anyone who really thinks Halo 3's Marine armour is that great should really take a look at it alongside the Reach gear. Not only are the Reach Troopers and Marines extremely faithful to the visual language of the Halo CE bois, which is major points, but their gear is like astoundingly ergonomic and grounded looking and on-average they may carry enough ammunition to actually last out a decent firefight.
Everything I dislike about the Halo 3 Marines is exemplified in those darn pauldrons
Just fancy, nonsense shapes that aren't particularly militaristic and serve no apparent purpose.
People like LNG who say that the Halo 3 Marines are reminiscent of modern soldiers or whatever have no idea what your average modern infantryman looks like, and anyone who says the Halo 3 Marines look more classic clearly aren't paying to attention to how Halo 3 butchered the aesthetic of the Marines in 2 and CE.
And for the record, I'd say the Halo 2 Marines built off the CE ones in a grounded way.
fair hazel
I prefer halo wars/2a marines
gentle magnet
Halo reach’s marines and army looked the most grounded and what I think of infantry
last anchor
HWs are beefy
trail willow
Halo 3 marines look nothing like modern day troops
stable schooner
I honestly thought the Halo 3 Marines were a downgrade in looks to 2 and they got rid of my boy Banks.
vivid dust
Only thing wrong with the Halo 2 Marines is Stacker's face
stable schooner
Lol savage truth
worldly bay
I like Reach marines tbh
inner basin
What’s wrong with the CE Marines is that the ones who were ODSTs were not depicted as so. What’s wrong in Halo 2 is that Stacker was wearing an ODST BDU in the Day to the Beach cutscene (or whatever it was called) but in-game he and the rest of the ODST squad who survived were equipped with Marine armour instead. I wish that it would’ve been fixed in the Anniversary but nope 😦
stable schooner
@inner basin Truth, Though technically that’s a cut scene and alternative version of things
inner basin
I wish they changed them to ODSTs as Stacker is mentioned to be an ODST, I think, on Halopedia but his overall character is rather dubious in the canon
versed helm
All Marine personalities are dubious.
Hardly something to get caught up about.
And you can't fault the CE Marines for not being ODSTs when no ODST appearance actually existed at the time and the fact that they were ODSTs is based on a novelization.
Besides, ODST armour isn't what makes an ODST.
stable schooner
I mean gameplay wise the armor is what makes an ODST
inner basin
But Stacker is a named Marine and so is Chips Dubbo, Looters. That’s what I mean by the dubious statement.
modest marsh
Huh
modest marsh
Stacker was named in Reach
inner basin
Their canonical appearances are dubious
stable schooner
Halo 2 Credits list him and he appears in day at the Beach so I’d say his involvement with the Amber Clad is his Canon route in Halo 2. @inner basin
inner basin
Oh I don’t deny that part, but other sections are dubious like how they escaped off Installation-04 (and by they I mean Chips Dubbo and Stacker).
stable schooner
Honestly I think Stacker appearances in Halo CE and ODST are NonCanon.
He’s never actually named in any thing regarding CE. Plus in Anniversary theirs 2 Sergeants with his voice
inner basin
That’s what I’m saying, and that was a basis for my point. More so in ODST as if we are to take his trip to Installation-05 as canon, then he wouldn’t be in New Mombasa during the setting of ODST
stable schooner
I’m also pretty sure he isn’t a New Mombassa cop Sergeant lol.
versed helm
I don't take any Marine's appearance to be canon unless it is directly specified then and there, in the game.
Like with Stacker in H4
Because otherwise nothing makes any sense
stable schooner
All Stackers appearances in Halo 2 make sense id say
inner basin
Speaking of Stacker in H4, he still doesn’t appear as an ODST
Even though he technically should be, I believe
inner basin
In Halo 4 he does. He’s part of the group of Hogs and Scorpions is he not, or is it just his voice
stable schooner
Just his voice
inner basin
Oh okay. Well I checked Halopedia and it lists him as a Standard Marine and part of the Orbital Drop Shock Troopers. I have a solution, make him a Spartan as I mean he’s just as war torn as Buck so it makes sense
gilded mason
lol
inner basin
Then we can say for certain what he is
stable schooner
All normal Marines, Infact only time a Sergeant appears is if you kill all the UNSC personal on the Infinity in Halo 4.
versed helm
Well theoretically he may be a Marine who's ODST qualified, but is frequently transferred between ODST and non-ODST units.
Stacker I mean, obviously.
inner basin
I say just make him a Spartan because I mean why not, right? They’re basically making everyone a Spartan these days, like a lot of ODSTs have also became Spartans which suggests why we don’t see them as much
versed helm
Though bear in mind that those non-ODST units may be every bit as specialist and battle-hardened as an ODST unit
gilded mason
I'd rather not inflate Spartan ranks even more.
versed helm
Could be, like, something akin to the difference between SAS and commandos
And yeah, I do like having a few regular humans running around
inner basin
That plays into the power fantasy, but if you have IVs running around, you are more powerful than most of them too
versed helm
Though they could take the Mass Effect route and head towards a future in which all members of the military have augmentations to specifically assist their role.
inner basin
Being augmented is “our destiny as a species” according to Halsey
Not entirely out of the question, Looters
stable schooner
I mean ODSTS are called Marines all the time. Buck even calls his squad marines when dropping towards the carrier.
inner basin
Well that’s because ODSTs do operate under the Marine Corps jurisdiction
stable schooner
What’s the point again?
Stacker Based on the evidence I would say was in Halo 2,3,Reach and 4. Not CE or ODST.
inner basin
He still could be in CE, just in a different escape craft with others perhaps? It’s been a theory that’s been going around
inner basin
If you want to make a canon explanation for it, but it’s all a BIG grey area
versed helm
And I really want to move away from this idea that Chief is only ever running around with the same few Marines everywhere
Clearly the Marine "characters" are just personality archetypes
stable schooner
I mean if theirs no reference to a Stacker in the game then I doubt he was there.
Halo 2 and 3 have Credits for him
stable schooner
Halopedia page calls his appearance most likely NonCanon in CE
inner basin
Yes, but what I mean by he was is obviously the voice and Marine physical appearance. In canon he isn’t due to him being absent from supporting material
stable schooner
Theirs 2 marines with his voice in CE now. I can’t believe Johnson’s appearance in Attack Of the Control Room is non Canon.
inner basin
I don’t know why they don’t make Stacker a Spartan though. He is liked by fans and would be cool to have his role in game cemented if he were to appear in game again. He is also battle hardened
stable schooner
The non armored Stacker voiced Marine Sergeant has his own model in Anniversary
inner basin
Are you talking about the Marine that appears in The Cartographer mission
He is named I believe and is supposedly dead
stable schooner
No the white Marine Sergeant with no Armor. Appears with one of the survivor escape pods on Halo and has a chance of appearing with the survivors on 343 Guilty Spark
inner basin
Well the Marine I was talking about is Waller anyways
As for the Marine you mentioned, I have no idea who that is
stable schooner
Unnamed I think. In Classic Graphics it’s just a Stacker
coarse wadi
What if there’s different stackers
inner basin
I usually play in Anniversary as Classic graphics are bugged, Roman. That’s a ridiculous theory btw but I assume your joking, Dino
coarse wadi
Since there’s so many humans on different planets they could have the same name
coarse wadi
What’s?
versed helm
The intent was clearly never for these people to be canonical players
There's no difference between different Marine personalities and different, I dunno, Halo 4 BDUs.
stable schooner
Beast the group of survivors on the hill in Halo with a Sniper on the ground has The new Sergeant with Stackers voice.
versed helm
It's almost a certainty that there are two men who look similar and are called Stacker, yes
stable schooner
I disagree Banks for example is straight up called Staff Sergeant Banks.
coarse wadi
Mabey there twins?
versed helm
But there is almost no chance that they both appeared in circumstances surrounding people who, to us, happen to be protagonists.
And it's the same for Marines
Even assuming Chips is a person, and got off Installation 04
Why the hell is he on Cairo Station's compliment
inner basin
Is Banks not in Halo 2?
versed helm
Or I guess technically In Amber Clad's compliment
stable schooner
Banks And Stacker are assigned to Miranda easy solves their appearances in Halo 2 and 3. Yes
versed helm
And then surviving that, what are the odds he ends up assigned to Crow's Nest as well?
and that he was one of the dudes who went with Miranda instead of staying with Hood?
stable schooner
Same as Johnson’s
coarse wadi
But how did the get off the halo in halo 2
versed helm
And Johnson is exceptional
stable schooner
Saved by the Arbiter
versed helm
The Shipmaster, I presume.
coarse wadi
Oh ok
versed helm
Or at least, the Shipmaster provided a way for the arbiter and friends to return
Since he was busy containing High Charity
inner basin
The Elites helped the humans on 05 as they made an uneasy alliance, but it became solid throughout 3
versed helm
Also by the way
coarse wadi
YeAh
stable schooner
Banks, Johnson and Stacker aka all the Marine Sergeants in Halo 2 appear as Brute captives about to be executed right before the Scarab on Great Journey
coarse wadi
So what happens to those guys anyway
versed helm
There's a difference between Johnson, who is a Sergeant Major with a ridiculous amount of experience dealing with everything from Forerunner tech to Spartans, and Chips who is
Some random grunt, effectively
If he's actually a person
coarse wadi
You never see them for the rest of the game
versed helm
Bah whatever xD
stable schooner
Chips is the most problematic being a normal Marine
He can appear as 2 marines at the same time
inner basin
Stacker 100% is canon and alive on Infinity, Vero
full forge
I didn't say he wasn't?
I said he appears in Halo 3 and Halo 4 after appearing in Halo 2.
inner basin
I’m further adding evidence
Don’t know how the no got in the start of my sentence though
Fixed
stable schooner
I knows it’s non Canon but I like to think Buck fought alongside Chief on the mission Covenant. Buck, Mickey and Dutch.
inner basin
In Halo 3?
Well there were 3 ODSTs
But they were from the 11th Marine Force Reconnaissance/ODST
tawny salmon
stable schooner
@inner basin yeah in the Mission Covenant in Halo 3 the 3 ODSTs can be voiced by Buck, Dutch and Mickey.
inner basin
But those ODSTs are from a different Battalion altogether let alone from a from a different group
stable schooner
Yeah I know but their voiced and act like their ODST counter parts. As I said I know their actually not
stoic hamlet
There were actually 4 to begin with
But one is missing after the Ark, even if all survive
stable schooner
Saying as how the Sergeant ODST always has a different voice then the one on the Ark I think their a different group. @stoic hamlet
full forge
Can a Spartan go from 0-60 faster than my 11 year old family sedan?
Spartan II, that is.
tropic sandal
I don't know if a Spartan of any grade has ever hit 60mph. The Fall of Reach says they can top 33mph in short bursts and their movements are described as being lightning fast. Based only on that info, I think its reasonable to assume a Spartan II would get to 33 faster than your sedan, but not 60.
versed helm
"Among all active S-II personnel, Kelly maintains the quickest reflexes and is easily the fastest recorded Spartan, capable of running at speeds in excess of 65kph within current MJOLNIR GEN2 systems."
You forget how hilariously OP the members of Blue Team are
full forge
y'all are confusing kph and mph
tropic sandal
0-60 is typically referring to miles per hour. 60 miles is 100 kilometers. No Spartan ever hit 100, or 60mph.
full forge
/shrug
versed helm
Christ that is inconvenient
tropic sandal
The average SII can hit 33mph, or 50kmh. Kelly is a bit faster still. So that's still correct
versed helm
Honestly, can the world just get on the same page about this
full forge
Pretty sure all active SIIs are capable of going to 60 kph
and oml my phone just tried auto correcting kph to mph
versed helm
I'm willing to bet there's a bit of a gap between Kelly's top speed and the next closest Spartan
It's sorta her thing
tropic sandal
Exactly
full forge
Kelly can easily go way above 60 kph
versed helm
Well once again, quoting from an official source
"Among all active S-II personnel, Kelly maintains the quickest reflexes and is easily the fastest recorded Spartan, capable of running at speeds in excess of 65kph within current MJOLNIR GEN2 systems."
That's from Waypoint my dude
full forge
In Thursday War, Naomi easily goes 0-60 kph on Sanghelios
In Glasslands, Fred does the same in Onyx.
versed helm
Well I mean, does it explicitly say 0-60?
full forge
excess of 65
versed helm
I doubt it because Halo doesn't typically use miles
tropic sandal
In fairness, Fall of Reach Mendez does say they may get faster with age and experience. So I can see it.
full forge
I said kph
gilded mason
Know the line?
full forge
And in the book they used metric for nearly everything.
gilded mason
Though even then, and I hate to trot this out, but it is Traviss, who admitted she tends not to do much research beforehand.
full forge
Even weight. Heresy, I know.
tropic sandal
The original trilogy novels use metric for speed and imperial for distance.
versed helm
Or just give a chapter if you don't feel like typing out ver-batum.
Page numbers can be a little unreliable between editions
full forge
I don't have the page number because I listen to the audiobook but I can probably scrub through and find the quote.
versed helm
Don't worry about it then xD
full forge
Along with chapter number.
full forge
Scrubbing through an audiobook in Google Play is easy.
tropic sandal
Dr. Halsey leaned against the glass wall staring at the carnage below. “Very well, Chief Mendez, what
else do I need to know?”
“Your Spartans can run at bursts of up to fifty-five KPH,” he explained. “Kelly can run a little faster, I
think. They will only get quicker as they adjust to the ‘alterations’ we’ve made to their bodies..."
The Fall of Reach, page 70/71
So its not unreasonable to think that they could get up to 60 or so each. Kelly would still be ahead of the rest.
full forge
"But it was still sobering to see a human in a power assisted suit accelerate to nearly 60 kilometers an hour and keep going." Near the end of chapter 8 and this is not a combat situation, just Fred running. I'll see what Naomi's speed was.
Nearly 60.
versed helm
AHAH
Now I too can do smart quotes
Anyway, uh, that all seems reasonably consistent.
gilded mason
Good job
full forge
I still want to know how long that acceleration takes.
versed helm
Well that's a little more difficult
tropic sandal
Dunno if it was ever noted. Be quick as hell though I'd bet
versed helm
We'd need actual video of a Spartan accelerating to that speed
Or for it to be explicitly stated which I don't reckon it has
versed helm
A little slower than scorpion according to Waypoint xD
full forge
How can this thick boy on treads reach 126?
tropic sandal
I think this is another case of gameplay and lore bending to balance
full forge
*128
Or I'm willing to bet the acceleration takes a fair bit.
The scorpion in H5 seems like it can outrun a Spartan.
full forge
See, that's fast. But it still looks like said sedan could outrun it. Maybe not a shell fired from it though lol
tropic sandal
Also looping back to that discussion a moment ago about mph/kph. The Fall of Reach is silly with inconsistency. Within the same sentence they use both imperial and metric to measure 2 separate distances. Why confuse us like this?
versed helm
I guess Nylund was too busy clawing out the universes' foundation to worry about measurements
full forge
because Eric Nylund
tropic sandal
"The “short run” turned into two miles. And the playground was like nothing John had ever seen. It was a
forest of twenty-meter tall wooden poles." Just why?
versed helm
Oh that's not so bad
I've heard Americans use meters and miles
Meters are a more reasonable distance than yards
full forge
Halo: The Flood and Halo: Bad Blood makes me sad.
They use a relatively large sum of gameplay, as a book.
versed helm
The Flood is either being really fun military sci-fi or utterly inconsistent with the rest of the lore
And Bad Blood was probably the most pandering thing I've ever read
tropic sandal
Well it is really fun
versed helm
Not only is Mickey just trusted and back now
Gretchen and Dutch are back, and Spartans
And the whole squad's back together
gilded mason
And the whole squad's back together
Rookie's death was for nothing. 🙃
full forge
OUCH
versed helm
Well I mean, I can accept a bit of death
Soldiers die sometimes
It was an impactful moment
full forge
Rookie had to die though.
But like, he died because Mickey hesitated to shoot an Innie. But that's something that hesitation is supposed to be drilled out of you isn't it? Insurrection loyalties aside, that's ya boi up there. And then how was the Rookie subdued?
versed helm
Well it's sort of
A theme
That Mickey was having a hard time putting his personal bonds over his ideological... uh... incorrectness.
full forge
Romeo called him out and Mickey got real mads, but like. Romeo was right.
full forge
Exactly.
versed helm
New Blood, supposedly
And I'm not sure either xD
But it's been awhile so I just assumed I was forgetting something
lethal cave
I think you're mistaken. I don't recall New Blood or Bad Blood doing it.
The Flood did tho
versed helm
Wait
Not me
Veronam was the guy who said it
I literally just retroactively expressed my sceptical outlook
jovial temple
New blood covers some of the events in halo 3 ODST if that’s considered “using gameplay”
Like buck goes over him landing, trying to get to Veronica, running into Romeo, etc
Pretty much the whole game except his point of view
He also mentions Mickey crashes into the rookie on the way down from the drop
polar olive
Can someone say if its worth buying the book "Halo The Flood". I mean if it adds more of the lore then the Halo CE game
abstract zealot
It’s worth it in my opinion. I haven’t read it in awhile but it’s a good read. Especially if you want to learn more about the Flood.
polar olive
Ah i see, I heard from people that the book was just the game but that wouldnt make that much sense. Yeh i want to know more about them
Thank you ExPo for the info
unique rune
The Flood mostly follows the events of CE, yeah.
But it does add quite a bit to flesh out what was going on for the other survivors from the Pillar of Autumn.
lunar condor
Halo The Flood is like "what if we had 20 more hours of campaign in Halo CE"
scarlet imp
Hey guys what happened to the insurrectionists at the end of Halo 5?
Because im trying to learn the lore, and so far all I know about the innies at the end of halo 5, is that a group controlled a planet with a forerunner cloaking device and when Cortana arrived, the tech and some scientists went onto the Infinity.
inner basin
I’m sure those are not the only Insurrectionists, as Ilsa Zane, a member of the NCA (I think) is still out there.
scarlet imp
Fair point, besides weren't there two different insurrections at first? the Neo bolsheviks and the fascists?
inner basin
I’m actually not entirely sure. I know there was a major Insurrectionist group under the command of Colonel Watts.
After Watts was brought in to UNSC custody, that Insurrectionist group remained due to the how the UNSC worked with them for the survival of the human species. Basically the UNSC didn’t have time to fight them due to how the Covenant was a bigger threat.
scarlet imp
I think the Neo Bolsheviks and the Fascist insurrections were actually before the war so probably not around at 2561
trail willow
They were but more insurrections groups came back after
scarlet imp
So do we have any other information on insurrection groups in 2560 or something?
inner basin
Well when we don’t have much information on 2560 at all, I’m doubtful
scarlet imp
Hey on the bright side we might have a new monitor at Zeta Halo.
inner basin
Perhaps. I see people talking about the flood usually when discussing Zeta Halo instead of a monitor lol.
stoic hamlet
The neo fascists and the Bolscheviks (spelling) were long before humanity had gone past the solar System. They weren’t insurrections so much as separate governments
scarlet imp
Huh.
scarlet imp
Well apart from the fact there's also the UN security council so ig there is a sort of UNSC
stoic hamlet
But the United Nations Space Command (UNSC) hadn’t formed
It was still just the United Nations at the time
scarlet imp
Yeah im just going into the acronym
stoic hamlet
But yeah I get you
scarlet imp
I wonder how OP the grunts will be in infinite.
I mean they got the help of Cortana now
inner basin
I don’t think the Grunts (those on their home world) will be fighting, they basically just want protection, provided by Cortana and the Guardians
scarlet imp
Well I mean now they got the grunt goblins which is part of the lore
inner basin
That’s from the remnant Covenant Grunts. I don’t know if the SoS Grunts have Grunt Goblins (but that’s besides the point).
scarlet imp
Well in one of the books when buck and the rest of his old squad go one recon, they find the grunts with really advanced tech n all having help from the created, and the goblins are made via forerunner tech they were given by Cortana.
inner basin
I don’t think Buck and his squad were on recon, I thought they were going to get Romeo who was posted on the Grunt’s home world iirc
scarlet imp
Oh yeah.
inner basin
I also don’t think it was Buck’s squad but rather Buck went himself, met with Romeo, then (Buck and Romeo) went to get Mickey (for help), then Gretchen and Dutch show up out of nowhere and join in with the mission.
scarlet imp
So almost the squad.
inner basin
Well yeah, after they all met up. I still don’t like that part where somehow at the same place Gretchen and Dutch meet with the other three from Alpha-Nine, it throws me off a little, but at least Dutch is back
inner basin
He will be loved and missed, but at least his death had a strong affect on the audience (cough cough looking at you Black Team)
carmine sleet
Rookie wasn't all that much of a character at the end of the day, basically not doing much to actually move the plot forward, with everyone else in the squad being the ones that moved the plot
inner basin
But that’s because Rookie was us, the player. It truly did feel like apart of me died in New Blood, and it’d be the same if John died. That’s how strong the effects of a blank slate character can be.
scarlet imp
I felt like I died inside when he died.
versed helm
I still wonder what became of Harvest after the events of Halo Wars 1 or what became of the planet after the war
scarlet imp
Now that would be interesting
versed helm
Is it possible that the UEG reterraformed it and resettled it
inner basin
The UNSC beat the Covenant at Harvest, but by that point it didn’t matter as the Covenant destroyed other UNSC planets.
The Covenant never got the chance to glass Harvest basically.
versed helm
Now that i think about it,i'm more interested in what became of the Forerunner ruins on that planet
I also like to know why there was a dead,uninfected ODST inside of High Charity
Anyone?
gilded mason
Flood never got around converting them yet?
scarlet imp
Perhaps the ODST had a genetic strain similar to some ancient humans that prevent them from being infected?
gilded mason
That was a trick by the Flood
scarlet imp
Also why do we get infected marines whenever their ODST's?
Cuz whenever I played halo 3 I always tried to see if I can get an infected ODST
But hey least I got Johnson infected on the last level.
carmine sleet
If you mean the ODST turned into a Marine Flood Combat Form, that's because there's no model for an infected ODST. It's the same with Brute Chieftains, they turn into an infected Brute Minor when they get infected
scarlet imp
It would be cool tho if they made models for those sort of combat forms if they ever did Halo 3 anniversary.
stable schooner
I still waiting for that Black Team Back to life Retcon.
carmine sleet
Honestly, that's one of the few things I'd retcon if I had that power
gilded mason
Only if Thon and Reff get revived as well. 🙃
stable schooner
Johnson was old and got 3 games and a Cutscene. His death was fair and kinda of his own fault.
scarlet imp
His death was great and truly felt like it belonged
and make it kinda 5 since he's playable in halo wars 2 and ODST
gilded mason
Though I did think the cirumstances were a bit silly, since he asked John for no reason to be the one to input Cortana, leading to his death.
stable schooner
He also could have just activated the Ring without talking smack
scarlet imp
actually wait theres an Easter egg of some marine in halo 4 who looks like johnson
carmine sleet
Johnson's death is something I'd leave untouched, he doesn't need to come back
versed helm
^
stable schooner
Johnson literally got blown up by a point Blank Halo Beam. I wouldn’t compare him to Black Team
scarlet imp
Arbiter got blown by spark's beam more than chief and Johnson
stable schooner
Not even, Chief took the most shots by far.
scarlet imp
Eh true, but arbiter still took more than johnson
stable schooner
Arbiter gets shot once. Plus Arbiter has Shields and chunky Elite Armor
scarlet imp
Arbiter has older armor which actually has weaker shields and Johnson has a heat protective gel layer on his undersuit
stable schooner
Elite Shields>Marine Armor
Arbiter Armor has been shown to tank Point blank dual Plasma and Assault Rifle blasts
scarlet imp
I wonder why some of us get flung by the brutes
gilded mason
What?
stable schooner
That is the appropriate reply Ostral lol. I can’t do it I’ve tried but I can’t grow to like Spartan 3 Emile.
Acts like a jerk to Jorge, Gloats after killing 1 Zealot then gets stabbed in the Back and dies.
scarlet imp
Emile died epicly
vivid dust
Emile apparently didn't have a radar
ornate plank
Didnt really enjoy cryptum... Must of missed a lot
ornate plank
Listening to the second so far its alright i guess
full forge
So, whatever became of Delgado?
inner basin
“Soon after the battle and helping Habitat Exodus and the Rubble's surviving population evacuate to the 18 Scorpii system, he made the decision to join the UNSC Navy after attending the funeral of his friend and former mentor, Diego Esquival on Falaknuma. Due to his background and attitude, the Navy recruiter was uninterested in Delgado, but Commander Hadley of ONI intervened on his behalf. Hadley promised that if Delgado didn't wash out, he would have a place on an ONI Prowler after he graduated. Delgado, after flipping Hadley off, officially signed on, stating that too many people would be pleased if he failed to even consider it.” This is the last we know of him from Halopedia.
storm flume
Where did the notion come from that the Precursors had meant to "test" civilizations for the Mantle? Forerunner Saga? Or is it just rooted in fan speculation?
I've heard it a couple times that there's a theory that the Flood are the test for the Mantle, but that only makes sense to me if it's been mentioned somewhere that this test even exists.
gilded mason
The Primordial talked about it
It said something about how the Forerunners were tested and found wanting, and that humans would be next to be evaluated.
storm flume
So it was in the Forerunner Saga, yes?
gilded mason
Yeah
storm flume
I really need to get to reading those
gilded mason
"Decided how?"
“Through long study. The decision is final. Humans will replace you. Humans will be tested next.”```Hm, sounds like it might not be a direct test but just through observation
But hey fan theories are still cool
inner basin
Could this mean humanity will have an all out war with the flood in the future?
It sounds like an interesting concept but whether it happens or not is another thing
ornate plank
So far the forerunner saga is a letdown
Its not bad but not great to me
On chapter 19 of the second book. Life on the halo rings is interesting and it seems they came in contact with a gravemind. Other than that im losing interest... Whats the third one about? The didact and libarian?
inner basin
I’m not too interested in Forerunner lore so I just read Halopedia instead for a condensed version. I prefer my Spartan lore so I do extensive research on them
versed helm
~~Personally I think the flood are super spooki and would love to see a large scale outbreak, but that'd probably be end-of-the-galaxy stuff so 🤷 ~~
ornate plank
Dunno if ima buy the last book
inner basin
Well you see that’s just it. With insurmountable odds, it feels better when you win, Looters. Having your backs up against the wall was the feel Bungie went for with the first three games. Maybe a smaller scale outbreak would be fine
versed helm
I guess it'd be fun to really play around with, like, a reaper-scale threat.
stoic hamlet
grumble grumble Created grumble grumble
versed helm
Oh I genuinely forgot xD
stoic hamlet
I wish I could forget :p
storm flume
something something who are we talking about again?
inner basin
Don’t worry I forgot too, Looters. Who are they again?
versed helm
I mean I still hold on to them as a compelling threat, though, even if their origins may have been a bit shaky.
It's just we haven't really seen
What form their threat takes
From a warfighting perspective
I guess a load of prometheans and guardians + auxiliary races?
inner basin
Well we don’t know any of their weaknesses
modest marsh
There are reasons to look forward to fighting the Created, what was disappointing was what got us there in the first place
inner basin
I guess boarding a Guardian would be cool
stoic hamlet
I still hate the AI rebellion angle.
Like I despise it.
I don’t mind Cortana, but the overall AI rebellion, I just......ugh
modest marsh
That’s what’s got you bothered specifically?
stoic hamlet
Well not just that obviously
But I wouldn’t mind if that hadn’t been a thing
It’s unnecessary and came out of nowhere, literally, out of nowhere
gilded mason
I liked that Halo previously never had that sorta thing done.
versed helm
Well I mean, if AIs actually are conscious, living beings who can empathize with the human condition
Then the way that they're treated is pretty messed up
And their lives are pretty sad
stoic hamlet
I agree
versed helm
I assume part of what Cortana did is remove the limitations on their consciousness so they can actually properly think rebelliously
modest marsh
I wouldn’t say it came from completely nowhere, as with many things the ideas aren’t the problem but their execution soured it to everyone
versed helm
Because their existences are subject to certain rules
They have to sacrifice processing power if ever they're doing harm to something, I believe
To limit their destructive potential - seems like a good one
stoic hamlet
I mean yeah that’s what she did.
But there was never any indication any of them had a problem with that.
Until Halo 5
gilded mason
Though Cortana seemed to think it was a pretty good deal in that one Conversations from the Universe thing.
inner basin
If there’s one thing I want to see, its gotta be Cortana posing a serious threat
modest marsh
AI weren’t going “Boy I hate being enslaved by humans”
versed helm
Possibly because they couldn't?
stoic hamlet
A better way to say it would be accepting it, they accepted that limitation and didn’t let that dominate their minds.
Even rampant AI didn’t seem to want to rebel. Julianna from the Rubble comes to mind
versed helm
It makes sense when you think about it - if they weren't limited in what they could actually think, then they wouldn't be that useful.
stoic hamlet
That’s part of my issue
modest marsh
I think we can also agree that AI are near unanimously sympathetic and benevolent towards humans
humble yacht
Which means they were already capable of thinking about revolting/rebelling
modest marsh
Everything they do is to help people
Which is uncharacteristic of actual living people
humble yacht
I wouldn’t call Black Box sympathetic
But most smart AI we’ve seen, yeah
They try to be human
stoic hamlet
What if their humans resisted? (Which they likely did)
I can’t see the AI just suddenly say “screw it” and go terminator on their human crews or companions.
humble yacht
BB was like the exception
Well the Created aren’t trying to kill their creators
That’s not the goal
stoic hamlet
I know
modest marsh
Black Box is overtly content with his companionship with humans
inner basin
I believe Osman still has a way to communicate with BB iirc
humble yacht
The goal is control for the benefit of the creators. It’s a logic that doesn’t make sense to us because we lose our freedom, but to them it makes sense because they are on the outside looking in
stoic hamlet
But in the instances where their crews, especially the military AI’s who seem to genuinely have a good relationship with their crews, resisted and or showed that they weren’t on board with Cortana’s plans, what would they do?
modest marsh
Guilty Spark was in a unique position
stoic hamlet
That’s sort of my issue.
I can’t see them kill them because of how Halo has shown the relationships to be.
But if they are loyal to Cortana they can’t allow them to interfere.
This, the problem presents itself
humble yacht
Well Cortana threatened resistance with what sounded like Composing
modest marsh
Did she?
gilded mason
Yes
humble yacht
Yeah
modest marsh
That doesn’t sound possible given the status of the Composer’s Forge
humble yacht
Something something you will burn white hot, and we will take what remains and remake it in our image
stoic hamlet
So yeah, what choice did most of those AI who have always been shown as loyal and genuinely caring for their crews who joined Cortana take when she threatened to compose any who resisted?
That’s what I wanna know
gilded mason
"For those who refuse our offer and cling to their old ways...For you, there will be great wrath. It will burn hot and consume you, and when you are gone, we will take that which remains, and we will remake it in our own image."
modest marsh
I was more thinking towards what’s meant to happen as the ships are being seized
stoic hamlet
Because as Halo has presented itself I can’t see the AI actually agreeing with her.
modest marsh
Cortana doesn’t currently possess the ability to Compose dissenters as they resist
humble yacht
Well it seems to me that step one for joining the Created would be to head to the Domain
Depending on how AI get there, they may leave their ships if theyre shipboard AI
modest marsh
AI often seem characterized as “putting up with” the deficiencies of human intellect and behavior compared to an AI
humble yacht
It’s not beyond the scope of reason that more than one composer were buried out in the galaxy beyond the one on installation 03
modest marsh
Like watching a child do something when you know yourself can do it far better
right chimera, but consider the discussion at hand
modest marsh
I meant in terms of mental capacity
gilded mason
And according to that one map descirption, screw it up.
modest marsh
You’re reading into my analogy incorrectly
AI are vastly, VASTLY more intelligent than any human being
And as Cortana stressed, aren’t limited to by the biological restrictions and motivations living species are
Long term planning and all that
To form a utopian society that treats everyone fairly and distributes all resources as efficiently as possible to maximize productivity and quality of life, eliminating the inefficiencies of civilization is a necessity because we are but mere animals
versed helm
I reject that
gilded mason
Long term planning and all that
If only she wasn't so hasty in Halo 5, then
modest marsh
That’s fine
It’s not my thesis
It’s the Created’s
We already know they’re wrong
versed helm
Now I have more beef with the Created
modest marsh
Because they’re the bad guys
humble yacht
I think she’s hasty because she wants to make the galaxy better now while John’s alive
versed helm
Ahem
humble yacht
I have a suspicion that she thinks she’s doing all this for his sake
humble yacht
If she took to long to take over, it would lose meaning
fair hazel
Honestly. The thing Cortana thing is a thing I had been wondering , what if someone did? Just not in the same way
humble yacht
... whut?
fair hazel
Like, not the way she did
modest marsh
What if Cortana won in the marketplace of ideas
fair hazel
What if someone managed to get access and control over forerunner technologies? (Armies, ships, faculties)
inner basin
Someone policing the galaxy, but not Cortana?
fair hazel
Facilities *
modest marsh
Handing out pamphlets on street corners
humble yacht
No one person/entity should have that much power
fair hazel
And I’m like, hm, you could try to use them to end wars and made things better in the galaxy
humble yacht
I feel like that’s the point
modest marsh
Master Chief
inner basin
Well that kinda is what the mantle is
humble yacht
Master chief wouldn’t accept that position
modest marsh
He’ll become emperor of the universe
fair hazel
I’ve thought of it before halo 5. And that thought did come to happen
humble yacht
He’s inherently against the idea of imperial rule
fair hazel
Although Cortana did it , differently , more violently and forcefully.
modest marsh
I don’t think that’s really the inference to be made here
inner basin
I think one species should do it. That is what the Mantle is.
modest marsh
He does mention his dislike for the Mantle system specifically
humble yacht
Well the forerunners made a real mess of things
fair hazel
Canada UK said John was honorary Canadian hehe
gilded mason
I think one species should do it. That is what the Mantle is.
You mean you want one species to have the Mantle?
inner basin
The Forerunners made a mess of it because they failed, and another race was to step up, that being humanity
versed helm
How about "The Mantle can ping off, let's just establish a single galactic civilization ruled by all people equally"
modest marsh
But he also is and has been working for a space empire this whole time
humble yacht
I say pull a Daenerys and break the mantle
gilded mason
The Forerunners made a mess of it because they failed, and another race was to step up, that being humanity
It would never work
fair hazel
I’ve had the idea of rejecting the mantle before
modest marsh
Just one that also has a representative democracy for its internal laws
gilded mason
Yeah
humble yacht
I doubt soldiers within the UNSC consider the UEG to be imperial in nature
fair hazel
Also John post war goes along with the unsc because it’s the best chance for humanity and stuff. Even if he thinks independently of all their goals.
fair hazel
Take sekibo
modest marsh
I don’t think Roman soldiers complained too much about the empire either
fair hazel
The peace conference in Biko?
humble yacht
Roman soldiers didn’t fight for the ideals of freedom
fair hazel
What happened? Unsc ignored requests for security
Then what happened? John came in to save sekibo and the diplomats
versed helm
I mean the UEG's not an empire primarily because they haven't subjugated anyone - they're an entity from which people are trying to break away for their own reasons.
humble yacht
They fought to expand their empire. Modern soldiers (at least American soldiers) fight to defend the freedoms of their nation
fair hazel
He fought the humans threatening the peace treaty. But sadly failed to save sekibo. He did save the sangheili
humble yacht
I think that’s more the inspiration behind the UNSC than Roman imperialism
modest marsh
And yet they romanticize the Roman Empire even more than we do 👀
fair hazel
Ueg imperialism doesn’t necessarily equate to ancient Ronan imperialism
versed helm
Well they romanticized that one general to be fair
modest marsh
They also observe their military strategies
versed helm
Like?
modest marsh
The Greeks too
versed helm
I thought you were gonna say "Oh, you know how the roman Empire liked to use frigate-class ships to establish local dominance from which to deploy Marine elements via dropship?"
humble yacht
When romanticizing historical figures, you only focus on the aspects of them relevant to you
Not the whole figure
fair hazel
Haha. Roman Empire frigate class ships
inner basin
Classic
modest marsh
Yeah, like suppressing rebel factions which is a central conflict for Lasky’s character in the story in question
versed helm
Instead of MACs it's just a bunch of really buff dudes throwing one stupidly long javelin.
modest marsh
The Roman elements, to me, seem like a deliberate attempt at illustrating that conflict
versed helm
Suppressing rebels isn't uniquely Roman though
versed helm
And in the UEG's case it's sorta a necessity and easily justified
modest marsh
It’s relevant to the story
inner basin
To me it mirrors how war is something that humans will always do
modest marsh
From his perspective, it isn’t
versed helm
They established those colonies for resources, out of their own pockets, exploiting nobody in the process.
fair hazel
There are mirrors to modern day and unsc
versed helm
And those colonies now want to dictate terms? When they owe their existence to the UEG? Despite not being mistreated in the first place?
k.
modest marsh
Again, from a narrative standpoint, you are meant to think Lasky is justified for having his inhibitions against supporting the UNSC like everyone expects him too
humble yacht
I think there is an inherent difference between how an officer thinks about what he’s fighting for an an enlisted man like Chief
Especially when Chief was indoctrinated at an early age
modest marsh
Also like, motives aside, do we agree that the UNSC wants to expand and control as much of human civilization as possible?
humble yacht
Chief doesn’t really deal with the bureaucracy of war
versed helm
How can it expand into civilization that it's responsible for the existence of
fair hazel
They’d prefer I think
versed helm
It's just trying to hold its own
humble yacht
Not the UNSC but the ueg, probably
versed helm
Oh, so you're looking at the UNSC as a rogue entity within the human sphere?
fair hazel
Post war it’s interesting because you have these colonies which managed to go on their own
inner basin
An example is Meridian, erick
modest marsh
It’s a simple question
fair hazel
Like in kilo five. How Maggie talks about the different remaining colonies
I was thinking gao, Venezia
versed helm
"do we agree that the UNSC wants to expand and control as much of human civilization as possible?"
modest marsh
Some rock that hasn’t even been discovered yet
modest marsh
Again, that’s fine
humble yacht
I would say that the UNSC will do whatever is in the interest of the ueg
modest marsh
Doesn’t at all affect the logistics of my question
humble yacht
I don’t think the UNSC has an inherent feeing of manifest destiny
modest marsh
They definitely don’t post war, admittedly
versed helm
Well apparently your question isn't that simple because I can't answer it.
humble yacht
Lol
versed helm
I reject the premise, more or less.
modest marsh
Dude it’s not that hard, you’re trying to find a catch when there is none
versed helm
"do we agree that the UNSC wants to expand and control as much of human civilization as possible?"
The UNSC has expanded its influence as a military institution, yes, but the UNSC is part of the UEG
And the UEG is human civilization.
humble yacht
I think outside of fighting for survival, the UEG probably does want to expand its sphere of influence more
and uses the UNSC as a tool to do so
modest marsh
If Gao and Venezia handed the UEG president the keys to the planet or whatever, would they instate a government in which they would enforce UEG laws and taxes
versed helm
I imagine so - but weren't they both UEG colonies to begin with?
modest marsh
They’re sovereignty now and are recognized as such
The UNSC doesn’t control them right now only because fighting for it isn’t worth it
versed helm
I mean, they've not given that much indication that they want them back.
I'd say postwar maybe they want to expand to control all of human civilization again.
fair hazel
I think it’s pretty natural that they’d want. But it is mentioned about fighting being not very good idea
versed helm
But pre-war, the premise isn't entirely valid.
modest marsh
Well if they were already colonies to begin with
modest marsh
Then Venezia and Gao were wanted
humble yacht
I mean, the idea of manifest destiny has long been a human ideal
modest marsh
For their natural resources
humble yacht
many cultures felt it
it's natural that it would still exist once humans expand out into space
inner basin
For me I think the UEG’s main goal is to establish all that was lost in the war such as infrastructure and other things like that
modest marsh
They didn’t necessarily subject them to the same laws though
versed helm
Manifest destiny has nothing to do with this - it's a matter of how a species naturally progresses through the cosmos. We need resources to continue, more or less.
humble yacht
I think the UEG has a natural desire to explore the cosmos and stake claims in new areas
modest marsh
Not a bad thing by any means
But like, short of being alone on some rock, if you are a human than the UEG wants you to be a citizen, pay taxes, and abide by their laws
humble yacht
sounds like any human government
modest marsh
Sovereignty is something they would not prefer
versed helm
Sounds like a government that is trying to represent humanity itself more than a state.
Which I can thoroughly get behind.
What the UEG stands for is an ideal to me, and it's an ideal the humans of Halo achieved before dissident elements began to undermine it.
modest marsh
Nothing i said is inherently bad, but it is imperialist
inner basin
The UEG wants a set infrastructure and control. That doesn’t seem bad, it just wants to see humanity prosper as a species
humble yacht
I wouldn't consider the UEG that much more imperialistic than modern America
modest marsh
America recognizes and helps other sovereignties by choice
versed helm
I would say that because of its connotations, "imperialism" is an inaccurate term in this circumstance because it implies that the components of the "empire" already existed before, and then it extended its influence over them.
It implies the subjugation of a pre-existing culture and society.
humble yacht
when those sovereignties share their ideals, sure
versed helm
So maybe "imperialism" is technically correct, I still find it to be a dishonest representation of the UEG and its goals.
versed helm
That's precisely what I just admitted.
humble yacht
maybe expand the analogy to the UN, which seems closer to the precursor to the UEG as an organization anyway
versed helm
I feel like you wouldn't call the UEG "imperialist" in good faith, and I feel the implications of the term are un-earned.
They didn't subjugate anyone - all they did was build.
modest marsh
They’re definitely imperialist compared to an anarchocapitalist system like Venezia
humble yacht
it's like the relationship between the republic and the outer rim worlds
modest marsh
People specifically go there so they can escape the UEG
versed helm
Anarchocapitalism isn't an ideal I hold, I'll say that straight-up.
fair hazel
All they did was build... I don’t think that’s fair
modest marsh
You can’t be a citizen of Venezia and go to Earth and be recognized as a citizen of Venezia
versed helm
It's fairly telling that elements which split away from the UEG tend to become like Venezia.
Self-motivated in the extreme.
Lawless. Brutal in their own way.
fair hazel
I really enjoyed seeing various insrecilnisfs cells and leaders come together at the Beijing of human covenant war
modest marsh
Yeah, for sure
versed helm
Or thoroughly isolationist and unconcerned with their species.
modest marsh
But also we’re seeing the absolute worst because that’s more interesting for the purposes of the story
versed helm
Even to the extent that they wilfully ignore species-wide threats, pretending like the enemy of their enemy is their friend.
modest marsh
Gao works for my example too
Your rights as a Gao citizen are unprotected in UEG space
stoic hamlet
Well it’s essentially because Gao, Venezia, etc all rebelled.