The one thing Miranda is absolutely not.
#lore-and-universe
versed helm
inner basin
Hence why she sacrificed herself
modest marsh
Chief generally defers to authority even if he disagrees or personally dislikes them
stable schooner
She’s Brave that’s true but that Bravery was Stupid and never well thought out.
modest marsh
Him defying del Rio was highly exceptional
stable schooner
Her going alone to save Johnson was extremely bad writing on Bungies part but it happened
versed helm
Chief called Crowther out on his misunderstanding of Spartan capabilities.
inner basin
Well when you’re on the verge of having all the rings being lit to wipe the galaxy of life, that seems lime an issue
versed helm
A criticism that Crowther later recognized was valid, despite Chief's own errors.
The thing about the UNSC is that genuine incompetence in a place of command is a bit of a rarity.
modest marsh
The meta analysis is somewhat irrelevant when talking about how it feels in the story
versed helm
And it's extremely clear to me that, consistent with our fairly typical discussions, you're intentionally looking for unusual interpretations which favour incompetence or error with a distinct lack of willingess to read between the lines in a reasonable way.
And I honestly don't understand why you love doing that so much
modest marsh
Who are you speaking to
inner basin
To grab attention is probably why, Looters
versed helm
Who do you think, Magg.
modest marsh
Then you’re wrong
versed helm
Well naturally you'd say that, but from my perspective of dealing with you it's valid.
Look at our discussion of Johnson's stanchion usage
stable schooner
And it seems your a Miranda Fanboy or insulted we are criticizing a woman Commander. Miranda has been shown incompetent and Brave that’s basically her character throughout the Classic Trilogy.
versed helm
Or the PoA cryo nonsense before that
modest marsh
When did I suggest the stanchion thing was incompetence
You’re pushing a narrative here
versed helm
Because your interpretation favoured that Johnson's shot into the car park was a dangerous one.
inner basin
Well it’s uncalled for when your are poorly criticising a character just because of her gender @stable schooner
modest marsh
Just because I disagree with you does not mean I have an obsession with making halo look bad
versed helm
When the text obviously did not meet the conditions for your assumption
stable schooner
@inner basin which is what’s not happening here.
modest marsh
Go back and what I originally said
versed helm
It's the only reason I can see for why you'd go in so hard, Byzantine.
inner basin
Judging by the conversation it is clearly evident, Roman
modest marsh
The Stanchion’s projectile has a tendency to decelerate on impact with its intended target to maximize its damage
This can have an in-universe explanation, the fact is that it is strange and exotic
stable schooner
Miranda being a woman is irrelevant. I actually think Palmer is more competent then her. Showing it right here guys can’t handle the 1 Of 2 Woman Commanders being criticized.
modest marsh
Do not assume just because I’m bursting your bubble of what you consider to be true im trying to poke holes in the setting
versed helm
I don't see any in-universe allusion to that fact, Magg, and the whole point of my critique of your stanchion statement that I saw your justifications for that deceleration actually happening as unfounded.
modest marsh
Whatever, I can’t help it if you choose to see things that aren’t there
versed helm
As the conversation progressed, you made the claim - or at least I interpreted you did - that if the rounds did not slow their velocity, Johnsons shot would've been irresponsible on at least two points.
inner basin
Your bringing Palmer in to try and divert the subject. There was no mention of Palmer. We are addressing the fact that your poorly criticised a character with the intent to slander a woman. If it is not for gender then what’s the purpose, Roman?
modest marsh
The first thing I did was imply the projectile does something unexpected
Which it does
versed helm
Only because you had a misunderstanding of the terrain. And the recognition of that misunderstanding resolved the discussion.
modest marsh
I have multitudinous examples independent of that single one though
versed helm
I still haven't heard any, though, despite asking.
modest marsh
Graphic Novel?
I linked it
The round practically detonated like an explosive device
How it’s used in Silent Storm as well
stable schooner
That Despite the hate for Palmer I think she’s a way more competent commander and a example of a decent commander that is also a woman and the fact I think your clearly mad that I criticized a Woman Commander. Miranda had been written as quite useless and you can’t change my mind. @inner basin
modest marsh
Covenant troops are sheered apart by single shots
versed helm
The fact that you're so insistent she was written as "useless" - specifically useless - tells me your grounds for that statement aren't entirely in good faith.
First off, it's very unempathetic language for a civil discussion.
stable schooner
What does Miranda do that no other character could have done?
versed helm
And second, if you got that intent from Miranda's actions, then I'm not sure we were playing the same game.
modest marsh
Miranda isn’t useless, but it feels like her usefulness is misplaced
inner basin
You haven’t put forward any valid and respectful criticism to proof that Miranda is a bad commander. To me if anyone is incompetent it is Palmer and her inability to actually be respectful. Also there is no need to tag me.
versed helm
She doesn't do anything that no other character could've done. But that doesn't make her "useless".
And if she was "useless", I say again, it would've been a point of contention among the experienced members of her crew.
modest marsh
We don’t see her employ any clever strategies in battle and seems solely reliant on bravado and strong arming situations into her favor
That doesn’t necessarily make her stupid
versed helm
Well that's where your argument departs from Byzantine's, Maggruber.
Perhaps because I saw you two agreeing I misunderstood your perspective.
But some exceptionally poor communication is certainly at play here.
inner basin
She utilised what she had, and that’s how Installation-05 was prevented from firing. She even did all that work to retrieve the index from the core too
modest marsh
I said that it may feel like she’s stupid because of what we see
feral perch
I think that, perhaps, if Miranda's personal motivations were more elaborated on in-game or even in a novel, her actions would have more meaning
modest marsh
^
stable schooner
You tagged me first what kind of statement is that. She let the Amber Clad her captured by the flood, losses basically all the UNSC forces on Installation 05, gets captured by the Covenant. Parks her Ship right above the Library making the Amber Clad vulnerable for anyone to attack it. Provides no efficient coordination for UNSC forces in the Qurantine Zone . Crashes a Pelican into the Arks control room without consulting UNSC forces.
modest marsh
I agree
versed helm
Alright, lemme just go through those.
She didn't "let the Amber clad get captured by the flood". Somehow, the Flood - who are known to be exceptionally tenacious and intelligent especially when a gravemind is present - got aboard her ship.
Was her ship evidently present in the Arbiter missions along the sentinel wall?
stable schooner
Yes
feral perch
To give her credit, the Flood-infected IAC did give the Elites saving grace during the Great Schism, which was vital for humanity's victory in the end
versed helm
Really?!
stable schooner
You can see it right above the Gondola.
modest marsh
Yeah
feral perch
It's on Halopedia, Looters
versed helm
Huh, never actually noticed that before. Still, it's not like the Flood could just climb in.
modest marsh
Well
modest marsh
They could leap onto its hull
feral perch
^^^
versed helm
It was that close
modest marsh
Or use commandeered vehicles
versed helm
What the heck
stable schooner
An Elite with a good grenade could stick that ship with how close it is to the ground
feral perch
Yep. You can find a pic on Halopedia
stable schooner
So what’s your defense of that?
versed helm
I'm a little interested as to why it's not using its coilguns to engage the Flood.
feral perch
Do you mean point defense or the MAC? @versed helm
stable schooner
Stacker has also already told her they were fighting non Covenant forces and she had seen the Sentinels
versed helm
Point defence of course, like in Halo Reach.
feral perch
Mm
versed helm
Those guns are useful for raking ground targets.
Also how did the phantom that carried the Arbiter get close?
inner basin
Yes because I was addressing a point from earlier that you brought up. You tagged me twice when we were engaged in this conversation, Roman. Also she didn’t “let” the In Amber Clad be captured, that’s a silly statement to make. We also don’t know if all the UNSC forces on the ring were killed likely not if Chips Dubbo and Stacker made it back to Earth along with Johnson and Miranda herself. Also her leadership abilities in Halo 3 on the Ark are very prominent and look how many UNSC forces make it back alive, so that point is a pretty bad one to make. As for the Pelican it was a last ditch effort to stop the rings from firing, she had no choice and was ultimately trying to buy time for Chief and Arbiter to get there.
versed helm
Full agreement with Beast
Though I am a little interested by this Amber Clad situation
feral perch
She literally could have sent any Corpsman on a Pelican in there.
modest marsh
Dubbo and Stacker’s presence anywhere is questionable
I wouldn’t use that as evidence
versed helm
^^^^^^^^
feral perch
Or shot into the control room with a MAC
versed helm
They're just Marine personalities.
They shouldn't be interpreted as canon.
Except for Stacker's Halo 4 appearance.
feral perch
I miss Stacker
stable schooner
She literally had the Elite Fleet pulling most of the weight on the Ark and Johnson evacuated UNSC forces to the Shadow Of Intent. Mission Dialogue is Canon
versed helm
Another point - why didn't the Covenant Fleet just merc the In Amber Clad?
If it was that openly there
It's an easy target
inner basin
The Elite fleet had no control over UNSC forces, Roman, so that’s irrelevant
feral perch
Too busy with the Flood and preparations for the Schism?
modest marsh
Well maybe they didn’t want to attack the library
versed helm
I mean, if it's that immobile they could've tried to board it
modest marsh
Flood would attack them if they tried
stable schooner
it’s not Irrelevant since the Elites engages most of the Covenant forces on the Ark.
modest marsh
By then the outbreak was pretty bad
feral perch
It was only a frigate. Not worth bothering with perhaps?
versed helm
It's still an enemy
The Covenant are being at least as incompetent as Miranda here
It's the sacred icon at stake
feral perch
The Covenant were there in full strength. They may have been arrogant.
stable schooner
Except they captured her and all UNSC forces
gilded mason
Maybe the Flood passively extrude a stupidity field around them.
stable schooner
They even used a Glassing Beam on Chief.
feral perch
Clearly they didn't glass IAC for some reason. Just offering suggestions.
versed helm
I think it's pretty clear that Miranda understood that Chief was the big play she had up her sleeve.
feral perch
Or you know, you could just go with the real explanation: plot armor
modest marsh
He was MIA at the time
versed helm
Presumably the reason she followed the prophet out of New Mombasa was to get the Chief aboard that ship.
stable schooner
Gravemind saved Chief Covenant had it in the bag.
inner basin
You are missing the point Roman, on the Ark Miranda had control of the UNSC forces and co-ordinated them. So that does not proof nothing apparently, when it’s an obvious point
versed helm
He was MIA, but the point I'm making is that he formed the core of Miranda's strategy.
modest marsh
Well......
versed helm
And without him, the situation was going to be ugly no matter what.
stable schooner
Any UNSC Commander could have did that that puts her at Average at best.
modest marsh
That’s another thing that bugs me, Beast
What troop coordination does she do?
The one time she’s asked to provide orders, she lets off the “To war” line
versed helm
Well she deploys the initial ODSTs and Chief onto an AAA position to allow pelicans access
feral perch
Miranda is frighteningly hands-on lol.
modest marsh
Yes
inner basin
Well it would take too long to list as I’d be describing a lot
versed helm
Then she deploys small units of Marines as well as material to help Chief drive towards his objective
stable schooner
Attacks on Covenant positions in the Ark can be contributed to her.
inner basin
Not any UNSC commander. Apparently her father was unable to do any co-ordination in Halo CE.
versed helm
And I guess she made the decision, with Chief MIA, that their best option was to throw every asset they had at the sacred icon.
stable schooner
Her whole handling of UNSC forces on the ARK was good but Terrible in the Qurantine Zone.
versed helm
So y'know.
The rings didn't kill everyone.
Ultimately it failed but it was a justifiable deployment of her Marines.
modest marsh
Uhh...
inner basin
But only a handful of survivors
stable schooner
Practically everyone died in Halo 2.
feral perch
that backfired because only humans can activate the rings
stable schooner
UNSC wise.
inner basin
We don’t know that Roman, it’s not been confirmed or denied
modest marsh
Most of the Autumn’s crew died independently of Capt Keyes’s command
stable schooner
Banks, Stacker, Chief, Johnson, Miranda seen UNSC survivors
versed helm
Let's not forget that Keyes personally decided to lead a raid on a weapon's cache
While he had
Y'know
A bunch of Marine officers and ODSTs
modest marsh
That’s the dumbest thing he did
versed helm
Brazen balls run in that family
feral perch
Keyes just had to go find that weapons cache... And the Forerunners just had to save samples of their greatest enemy.
inner basin
There could be more than that Roman.
versed helm
Well the Forerunner's justification is fine.
stable schooner
I doubt it Beast and the evidence doesn’t support it.
versed helm
There's no way the Halo pulse wiped them all out
Like, the Halo pulse kills nervous systems but apparently simplistic enough flood forms can survive
stable schooner
To be fair the Covenant where extremely efficient in Halo 2 other then Regret.
inner basin
There is no evidence
feral perch
Idk about that; I think they should not have kept any samples for study.
inner basin
For either point
feral perch
It only ever ended in trouble.
versed helm
That's down to Covenant incompetence and lack of scientific sensibilities
stable schooner
Amber Clad taken by the Flood, Majority Of UNSC forces seen killed on the Ring. Evidence right there.
inner basin
We only know of named characters to have survived cause we see them again.
versed helm
Hell, the flood outbreak on 04 might be attributed to Thel, lol
Thel's incompetent
🙄
modest marsh
👀
stable schooner
That’s not Halo 2
inner basin
It was the Covenant. Remember Cortana in the cutscene of Assault on the Control Room
feral perch
Thel was a jerk until he became the Arbiter, man
stable schooner
But that is his fault
inner basin
Well he had pretty bad odds going up against Chief
feral perch
Anyone does @inner basin
modest marsh
What did Thel do personally that would be attributable to incompetence?
versed helm
Maybe one bad call based on limited information or a desperate situation doesn't make someone "useless", huh?
gilded mason
Mainly the meddling prophet hamstringing him at every turn.
versed helm
Not issue a standing order not to poke around in the huge alien megastructure until we understand the signs.
stable schooner
Thel Doesn’t compare to Miranda.
versed helm
That according to Cortana
"There must have been"
Though prophet meddling is also another explanation.
inner basin
Well you say that now but things do appear to match
stable schooner
Miranda has multiple instances of more incompetence compared to Thel.
feral perch
Thel was tactically brilliant, sure. I think Cole Protocol demonstrates that. But I can't say he was humble.
inner basin
Name them all, Roman
versed helm
Miranda has a single instance of incompetence that you've convinced me of.
Potentially
it's still a vague situation
modest marsh
We know that the Covenant is fairly backwards with how it handles interpretation of the Forerunners and their structure
feral perch
Pretty much.
inner basin
We don’t know all the details of the Battle on Installation-05. We only know if ned characters survival because we see them again but it doesn’t mean there’s more. Like some Marines on Crow’s Nest could be from 05 perhaps.
modest marsh
And how the Flood was released? May as well have been a Grunt who was too careless for his own good
versed helm
Well the Marines may as well have died because they panicked in the face of the Flood
stable schooner
Crashing a Pelican by herself without consulting other UNSC forced is itself in competence. Her deployment of UNSC forces through the Qurantine Zone is incompetence, her putting the Amber Clad right over a warzone is incompetence
versed helm
Crashing that Pelican was a desperate move to stop the end of all life in the galaxy because there wasn't time for anything else
But ultimately when it came down to it
She couldn't kill Johnson and herself
feral perch
She could have ordered anyone else to do it, though
modest marsh
Have we considered the possibility Guilty Spark is the true culprit for the Flood outbreak on I04?
stable schooner
Going to the sacred ICON with a small escort is incompetence. It’s still a dumb move and she couldn’t kill herself as you said
versed helm
I didn't see any other Pelicans in that battle
feral perch
An ODST commander or Marine
versed helm
They seemed to be getting shot down
modest marsh
Penitent Tangent was similarly incapable
versed helm
She was using one Pelican as a command post
feral perch
She didn't need that Pelican if she had the Dawn.
versed helm
It was the only one to hand
stable schooner
I would applaud Miranda if she killed herself and Johnson
versed helm
The dawn wasn't close enough
modest marsh
versed helm
It was engaged in space at the time, if memory serves.
inner basin
Well 1. she crashed the Pelican to delay the lighting of the rings, she could’ve been the only one with a Pelican. Also if she’s in command why does she need consultation. 2. Her deployment of UNSC forces is a terrible one as they had to get it before the Covies and 3. She put the In Amber Clad there as how was she supposed to know Flood would get aboard. We know that the UNSC are unaware about the flood outbreak as otherwise she would’ve mentioned so.
feral perch
I don't know. I thought all the Covenant ships were gone. That's how Shadow of Intent went in unopposed until High Charity showed up.
After Chief shut down the gates
modest marsh
Seems unlikely the Amber Clad wouldn’t have noticed the Covenant were fighting amongst themselves
gilded mason
Unless Rtas straight-up won
He talked about how Truth's fleet is destroyed
inner basin
I said flood, that’s what took the ship after all, Magg
modest marsh
Okay but
stable schooner
But UNSC forces told her about these Non Covenant forces and she saw the flying Sentinels. She didn’t kill herself or Johnson incompetence
versed helm
How the hell did he do that tho
feral perch
Wasn't Shadow of Intent one of the only CASs in the battle?
gilded mason
How the hell did he do that tho
'Cause he's Rtas.
versed helm
Is it just because he's an elite
modest marsh
Who were the Covenant fighting
feral perch
@gilded mason heck yeah
inner basin
That was when they were in the Quarantine Zone, not before, Roman.
modest marsh
The Amber Clad must’ve known about the Flood
stable schooner
Nothing you said Beast makes her out as a good Commander. It makes her a decent one at times.
inner basin
How so? No UNSC forces were in there to relay that, Magg. Plus I disproved all your points so what doesn’t make her a good one, Roman?
versed helm
I mean the problem here is that we have a huge gap in the precise order of events of Miranda's actions on Delta after Chief went MIA. We know that A) her ship was hovering over the library and B) she led a bunch of Marines in that ultimately didn't make it. When she became aware of things like the flood or the schism and how are things we have to make assumptions about.
stable schooner
Nothing you said had disproved any of my points
feral perch
I think he meant their existence, ala Installation 04 @inner basin
versed helm
And part of my argument in this is that the assumptions that Byzantine has made tend to be a little overly aggressive.
modest marsh
There’s this weird thing called long range sensors beast
stable schooner
Looters your assertion is fair Beast I can’t agree with at all
modest marsh
Not everything needs to be seen with your eyes
inner basin
Not aboard Frigates, Magg.
modest marsh
Are you serious
You realize even frigates combat one another at ranges exceeding thousands of kilometers right
inner basin
My ship lore isn’t up to scratch so I could be wrong
modest marsh
Yes, you are very wrong
versed helm
Here's a possible assumption - Miranda did know about the schism, which is why she went in so low and aggressively with her ship. She wanted to take advantage of the mess to get in there with all the firepower she had, get the index, and get out.
stable schooner
I don’t hate Miranda I actually think the way Miranda is written in 3 is a travesty to her Character in 2. I actually like Miranda but not her abilities as a Commander
inner basin
Well that’s called an opinion, not fact
versed helm
What she didn't know about was the flood, until it was too late for her to make a call.
inner basin
Very two different things you need to know the distinction between
feral perch
Hm. That's a solid idea, Looters.
stable schooner
So is your whole argument Beast your point
inner basin
How is it. I provided several facts of what she did
modest marsh
Also Beast, the Amber Clad had access to the Covenant battlenet, or at least it should considering Cortana did before they lost contact
feral perch
Still, do you think she was aware of the Flood being a possible threat, but went in hoping they hadn't broken containment?
stable schooner
No you provided your opinion on the things she did which I see as flawed.
inner basin
Well how would Miranda know about the schism while the Arbiter and the rest of the Elites don’t, Looters? Scroll up and read my long post again then Roman.
stable schooner
I have it hasn’t convinced me of anything.
inner basin
Well your clearly blinded then
versed helm
The order of events on the In Amber Clad are a huge unknown. Here's a possibility - the ship's point defence was keeping enemy vessels and targets suppressed, and a Marine officer who'd inhaled a flood spore returned to the ship and got onto the bridge. There he mutated and killed everyone as Miranda was ordering the ship to be aware of the threat.
That may be a stretch
But considering that a gravemind was at play
Something exceptionally devious probably happened
stable schooner
Nah I just think your opinion is nonsensical Beast
feral perch
That would require agreement on the capabilities of Flood spores, which you're not likely to get.
modest marsh
I mean all she has to see is Covenant shooting at things that aren’t them and she can infer from there that there’s a threat
versed helm
Maybe a pod infector just pulled a Spirit of Fire
stable schooner
In regards to UNSC and Covenant engagement in the Qurantine Zone we know Tartarus attacked her Gondola.
feral perch
Perhaps.
modest marsh
We know the Flood can get rather creative with their delivery methods
versed helm
Or maybe yes, a bunch of combat forms literally jumped onto the In Amber Clad as Marines were encountering them in the library.
Right.
See, the first assumption here doesn't have to be "Miranda iz big dum dum"
stable schooner
Her Ship is that close that sounds possible Looters but she parked it their and left it.
inner basin
How? That Miranda crashed the Pelican to delay the rings to be fired? That she had to retrieve the index before the Covenant on 05 to prevent that ring from being fired. That she couldn’t of known that the flood were loose on 05 and if she did how did she know they would take over her ship. How’s that nonsensical, Roman? That’s just logical understanding
modest marsh
She could have definitely known about the Flood beast, as I’ve repeatedly said
stable schooner
Nothing you just said makes her sound like a good Commander.
versed helm
What she does do is lead from the front (clearly a family value) and compulsively put herself in harm's way before others (sounds a little like Chief on the second point). What she is is a tactically competent officer - what she isn't is Preston Cole, but that doesn't mean she's dumb.
stable schooner
She knew she was fighting non Covenant enemies
feral perch
Although, we don't know exactly when the Schism started in space iirc. Halo 2 has Rtas on the ground at the beginning and 2/3rds points of Quarantine Zone, and then again on the Great Journey. But at some point between or after, he was commanding Shadow of Intent in the fight against the Brutes, and he later glassed High Charity.
It's a confusing timeline
modest marsh
Plasma discharges have a tendency of being highly visible from long distances
versed helm
A lot of people put their faith in Miranda - Hood, Johnson, Chief - and for the most part they were rewarded.
modest marsh
Especially the shipborne kind
stable schooner
Rtas doesn’t get a ship until after Great Journey.
inner basin
Well it still makes sense, and disproved your previous points that you said made her “incompetent”, Roman. As for her knowing about the flood I did go over that and say that she didn’t know that they could’ve attacker her ship, Magg.
modest marsh
Why not?
inner basin
Assumptions
inner basin
She may of not of know that
versed helm
The point being Magg that she didn't know the Flood were there
feral perch
Are you sure? Halo: Shadow of Intent seems to have him in space fighting the Prelates
modest marsh
Why wouldn’t she know
stable schooner
They don’t Her trying to delay the rings firing by herself as a Commander is bad commanding. Your rights that’s more horrible then incompetence
modest marsh
The Flood is wherever the combat is
versed helm
"Negative ma'am they are not Covenant"
C'mon we've been over this dude
And how would she have known before?
Her flood detector?
modest marsh
Wait, step back a second
inner basin
Well she’s biding time, Roman. She was on the point of killing her and Johnson after that but she was too emotional
stable schooner
During Great Journey Rtas says he’s gonna take back the Ship you can see hovering in the sky.
modest marsh
What Flood are we assuming they encountered
Exclusively infection forms just hiding out in the library?
versed helm
The Flood forces in the sentinel wall and library
Who took control of the In Amber Clad
stable schooner
Ok Beast again I can understand why she did it doesn’t make it a good idea.
versed helm
Which is apparently what makes her "useless"
modest marsh
Is this before or after engaging the Covenant forces
versed helm
What do you mean by "engaging Covenant forces?" Like, in the sentinel wall?
Cuz I guess after?
They blasted through what Covenant were there, hit the flood somewhere further in
stable schooner
Arbiter lowers the Wall not the UNSC so she couldn’t even do what She told Chief in Regret.
modest marsh
My whole thing here is that the order of events would suggest that there would’ve been signs that clued them into the fact that there’s flood on the loose
inner basin
Why doesn’t it? Chief and Arby aren’t going to make it in time as they were at the bottom of the elevator. There were no nearby UNSC Pelicans so she did that. I don’t want to sound rude but maybe play H3 again to see where I’m coming from, Roman.
versed helm
Well evidently not, Magg, referencing the Marine's transmissions.
If he'd been aware of flood he'd have said "ay-yo it's flood famalam"
stable schooner
Theirs hornets with her in that part Beast play the mission.
modest marsh
They should have been briefed already
stable schooner
Also UNSC ground forces she could have picked up and taken with her
modest marsh
Operative word there
versed helm
You can't be briefed on something you didn't know
versed helm
What signs would there have been that Flood were on the loose if they were contained by sentinels?
modest marsh
They weren’t though?
stable schooner
She did know their was hostile air borne Sentinels though
inner basin
That would take too long. Hornets may’ve not been able to get in or Bungie made an error. Oversights happen in development too
versed helm
Magg, I apologize for my earlier statement about your behaviour
modest marsh
The quarantine zone was half melted
versed helm
This is the thing that bothers me
stable schooner
Oversight is still error.
versed helm
C'mon dude, you're obviously not correct here
However it happened, nobody on the In Amber Clad knew about the Flood until Miranda was knee-deep in the sentinel wall
inner basin
Yes I know. I made a new sentence saying oversights happen in development of games too
versed helm
That's not disputable
modest marsh
versed helm
As far as Miranda knew, in Installation 04 the Flood came from what was believed to be a weapon's cache.
modest marsh
So she just
stable schooner
Did she kill herself and Johnson? Nope that’s a error right there that can’t be seen as a good decision. She Engaged the Sentinel forces who could attack her Ship
modest marsh
Didn’t notice this
versed helm
How did that happen again?
modest marsh
Flood were melting their way through the sentinel wall using hijacked wraiths
versed helm
And it's probably not a matter of "wouldn't" kill herself and Johnson but "couldn't."
modest marsh
Which would require extensive vehicular deployment
stable schooner
Same diff. Same result
inner basin
From talking about the ODST compliments is how this whole discussion started, Looters
gilded mason
Flood were melting their way through the sentinel wall using hijacked wraiths
I think the thing in your picture was once a flying manufactury, actually
modest marsh
You’re right
gilded mason
But still, shot down by the Flood.
versed helm
Well Covenant forces were fighting sentinels
Some of them quite big
As the Flood were fighting outwards the Covenant were fighting inwards
modest marsh
I find it unlikely that whatever proceeded this would’ve just gone unnoticed by the Amber Clad
stable schooner
I definitely slightly switching topic consider the Qurantine Zone a Covenant Victory
modest marsh
Is it?
versed helm
Unless you've got a better explanation of Marines becoming aware of the Flood for the first time and informing Miranda about it on the fly.
inner basin
Well the Sentinels didn’t see why the Covenant shouldn’t be fought. I mean it could be that they were designed to attack things that weren’t Forerunner or Reclaimers (unless provoked by Reclaimers).
stable schooner
Miranda definitely engaged Sentinel forces.
versed helm
Presumably Miranda asked the question "are they Covenant?" at some point.
stable schooner
All those dead Enforcers by the Index tell something right there.
modest marsh
Well for one, clear oversight considering they already know that two distinct non-Covenant enemies already exist because of I04
feral perch
Hm. Piecing together the timeline is interesting. It seems that the Shadow of Intent was hijacked by Brutes, then retaken by Rtas, and afterwards went on to participate in the battle against the Prelates, then tried getting inside High Charity to rescue San'Shyuum, but failed. And Shadow of Intent doesn't mention the change of hands it went through.
modest marsh
That particular marine was weirdly uninformed
inner basin
Poor Marine
versed helm
Maggruber, I think it's vastly more likely that you're operating about assumptions of what was and wasn't obvious at the time that are inaccurate to what actually transpired
modest marsh
Okay
stable schooner
Poor UNSC to all the Marines who got burned alive by Sentinel beams and ripped open by the flood from all sides.
inner basin
I guess they didn’t have time to have a briefing due to the urgency perhaps, Magg
modest marsh
A few minutes couldn’t be spared?
versed helm
Most likely - the In Amber Clad was aware of the risk of the Flood
100%
But not that they had been released already
And were in the library
A Gravemind also did happen to be present that wanted to get aboard the In Amber Clad, too
stable schooner
She knew their was Non Covenant Enemies one that could fly.
inner basin
Had we got a UNSC perspective at that point, it would be more clear
But John was being taken to the Gravemind, by the Gravemind
modest marsh
From how close they were, I’d be surprised if the crew couldn’t see with their own eyes firing lines consisting of plasma going back and forth
stable schooner
UNSC got stomped though.
modest marsh
Also, there’s UNSC equipment and personnel found as far as kilometers away from the library
stable schooner
Yes
inner basin
I’d say a lot of the command crew and ship operating personnel died as they remained on the ship
versed helm
🤔 🤔 🤔
So perhaps all the evidence of the Flood being loose
Was concealed behind the energy barrier
modest marsh
How?
stable schooner
Arbiter turns off Shield. Covenant forces rush in and get stomped. Covenant Spec Ops are sent as Arbiter finally makes it to the ground.
versed helm
Because it's a big vision-obscuring barrier that may be impenetrable to scans
modest marsh
I don’t see any depiction indicating that it obscures sightlines
stable schooner
Marines already in the second half of the wall don’t make sense to me though
inner basin
I guess we need to get another perspective of this battle from the UNSC side if we are to ever come to a resolve for this argument. That’s something we could agree on, right?
modest marsh
Like, the Didact’s Cryptum wasn’t invisible or anything in Shutdown
versed helm
I thought they only went after the Arbiter disabled it
But Miranda's gondola had a head start
stable schooner
Marines are already fighting flood the room right after Arbiter encounters flood on the Gondola
Inside the wall
versed helm
So the Flood sort of converged on both the Marines and Arbiter simultaneously
But also Magg
stable schooner
I’m saying how Marines are already on the second part of the wall if Arbiter just lowered the Shield. That’s possible Pelican rushes in Flood instantly attack
versed helm
The super scarab was invisible beneath the energy shield in Halo Wars
modest marsh
Well sure but that’s a little less obvious than a plasma mortar detonating
inner basin
Well they are called the flood for a reason, Looters. They flood their enemies
versed helm
Obscured is obscured
stable schooner
Why would the UNSC send forces into the wall after Arbiter lowered the Shield though?
inner basin
Reinforcements?
modest marsh
But to say that energy shields can perfectly mask weapons discharges is unfounded
stable schooner
After Arbiter lowers the wall the Covenant go straight into the Qurantine Zone where as the UNSC sent forces into the wall and Qurantine Zone.
inner basin
Maybe troop retrieval then?
Maybe the Pelican was picking up forces and not dropping them off
Or transporting them elsewhere
stable schooner
How’d they get into the second part of the wall already though.
Covenant forces didn’t.
versed helm
I think maybe our collectively memory of this level is slightly hazy
stable schooner
Nah I’ve been criticizing this whole level since 6th grade
modest marsh
🤔
stable schooner
Bungie left to many inconsistencies in this part of the story
inner basin
Well the UNSCs understanding may be more greater than that of the Covenants and so they got there quicker. Or perhaps due to them being Reclaimers they got a free pass??
versed helm
Where is the In Amber Clad when the Arbiter's phantom is coming in
modest marsh
I’m tempted to load up the level right now
stable schooner
My Reasoning is UNSC forces where able to by pass into the second half of the wall cause their Reclaimers without lowering the Shield
modest marsh
Where is their entry point?
stable schooner
In the Wall Unknown
versed helm
Wait so hold up
Order of events
Humans are already there when the Arbiter arrives, correct?
But the In Amber Clad is nowhere evident
inner basin
Well I’m just blindly speculating
versed helm
Which is why I assumed it was still in space
stable schooner
Though their is a platform for ships like pelicans to drop off onto the wall once the Shield is lowered
versed helm
Wait so they're just chilling out and waiting
Then they see the shield come down
And they're like
Now's our chance
So they leapfrog ahead with dropships
stable schooner
You can see it as your going into the second part of the wall as Arbiter in Anniversary
The platform not Amber Clad which is unseen until Quarantine Zone
versed helm
I mean are we sure this is representative of Miranda's incompetence or is everything about this maybe a mess
stable schooner
I think Both
modest marsh
The Covenant were bizarrely unaware of the Amber Clad’s location since it first exited slipspace
stable schooner
But her being a mess is to blame on Bungie of course
inner basin
You think both but we don’t know if it’s both
stable schooner
These 2 missions are a whole mess storywise
inner basin
Definitely. I was confused when I first played them in fact
stable schooner
All we know ships couldn’t get past it until Arbiter lowered the Shield
How it works I don’t know
versed helm
then it's an assumption that what was going on inside would be obvious to the In Amber Clad
I mean
And this is a thing @modest marsh
Not only did the In Amber Clad not know
Neither did the Covenant, did they?
inner basin
Never heard it on comms
versed helm
They were just skirmishing with sentinels till the Arbiter rolls up
stable schooner
Covenant had 343 Guilty Spark though
inner basin
Spark was aboard High Charity though
stable schooner
Tartarus knew how to tell what Arbiter to lower though
stable schooner
He answered their questions though and knows how Quarantine Procedure goes
inner basin
But Spark wasn’t allowed to talk in that stasis field thing we saw him in. You can see his bulb light flickering slightly which only happens when he talks, I think
stable schooner
Mercy says they interrogated him though
versed helm
He still mightn't have enough information to discern that the flood have escaped
stable schooner
Asked questions and with Wisdom and Clarity he answered
versed helm
He also likes to withhold information
inner basin
Yeah but I meant after. That could be because he was saying that the Covenant are using inaccurate verbage
versed helm
Or assume that everyone else already knows what he does
modest marsh
A Pelican flies right over where the Arbiter is at the beginning of the level
modest marsh
Also there’s vehicles littered everywhere
stable schooner
Wall was already lowered. Yet he told them about the Library
modest marsh
UNSC vehicles
versed helm
Aren't the UNSC vehicles inside the wall tho
Also what pelican
I don't remember this at all
inner basin
There’s a mixture of UNSC and Covie vehicles further in the wall
modest marsh
There’s a Pelican carrying a scorpion almost immediately into the level
stable schooner
UNSC and Covenant
stable schooner
Human Pelican flies over when the subheading Friendly Competition appears
modest marsh
Point is, this is long before the marine over the comms says that there’s flood on the loose
Or rather
“Non Covenant”
stable schooner
No it’s not it’s way after
versed helm
yeah
modest marsh
Huh?
versed helm
that's what i thought
stable schooner
Qurantine Zone is after Sacred Icon
versed helm
It's said more or less as the Arbiter first encounters in the Flood
inner basin
Maybe the tank is to tackle the Covenant
versed helm
There's a pelican in Sacred Icon too?!
stable schooner
Which is inside the wall during Sacred Icon. That Pelican appears during Quarantine Zone.
modest marsh
Yes
versed helm
So what seems apparent is that the energy field is A) transparent
But B) doesn't allow you to fly over
Or through
But also there's a lot of things that manifest while the level is occurring that should be visible on the Arbiter's approach
Like the In Amber Clad
stable schooner
Stacker tells Miranda about flood in Sacred Icon, Pelican appears in the mission after transporting a Tank but is seen crashed later in the mission
stable schooner
Sentinel Factory
versed helm
All this stuff must be happening as the Arbiter and Miranda are moving into the facility
stable schooner
Produces Sentinels
stable schooner
You asked what it was
stable schooner
Could mean controlled by Sentinels and produces Prometheans you never know
stable schooner
I wouldn’t say that their different classes. Fair enough I guess
versed helm
Whatever I'm gonna go play this level now and see if anything makes sense
storm flume
Has there ever been an explanation for why it took the entire war to develop Mark V MJOLNIR but then only months for it to be replaced by Mark VI?
storm flume
So more like a R&D regulation change then
versed helm
The differences between one Mark IV model from another are probably about equivalent to the differences between V and VI
And yeah, something like that.
storm flume
I figured that would be the answer, but I wanted to check with the real loremasters lol
versed helm
Mark VI does kinda come out of the blue, though.
Like when Mark V was introduced Halsey was clearly thinking it was more or less the pinnacle of MJOLNIR design, going off TFoR
The actual "improvements" come down to the internal medical systems and better energy shield.
But if you want a real thing to wrap your head around
storm flume
Well also maybe she thought humanity wouldn't even have the chance to develop on it. It was estimated that as soon as Reach fell, humanity would have weeks to extinction, unless RED FLAG was a success
versed helm
We're supposed to believe that Linda and Fred were wearing armour that was 100% identical to their GEN 2 suits in 2552 that wasn't actually GEN 2
Just a Mark VI variation
From the H2A terminals, this comes
storm flume
Honestly I head-canon that they aren't actually
versed helm
Mhm.
storm flume
I know it's clearlly visible but I'm comfortable being in denial lol
versed helm
And I like to pretend that Chief's Mark V on installation 04 actually looks like it does on that lootcrate box art and not how it does in CEA
versed helm
Who knows what version of that is supposed to canon at this point
storm flume
Lol yeah
versed helm
It probably ain't the comic, that much I'll say
storm flume
Reach kinda urinated all over the end of the novel so that's out the window too.
And there's no way I can accept the animation as legitimate loll
So I just
Take bits and pieces from everything
analog violet
speaking of reach, sorry interrupt btw, what is up with AR
analog violet
We go from a standard issue 32 round assalut rifle, to an incredible 60 rounds rifle
No, no, i mean the difference in halo reach and CEs rifles
versed helm
Magazine size is a function of the magazine, not the weapon.
In Halo CE, you're using 60 round magazines with an MA5B
CEA, you're using 60 round magazines with an MA5C
In Halo 5 Warzone, you can use 54 round magazines with an MA5D
storm flume
It's just a game thing that all magazines in CE are 60, and in alll other games are only 32
versed helm
Gameplay isn't a 1:1 representation of canon.
carmine sleet
Halo 5 has 36 rounds in its mag normally
analog violet
Yeah
carmine sleet
Plus what Looters said
storm flume
I played 5 for like 2 weeks before I put it down and sold my Xbone so I can't really say much for 5 lol
analog violet
I meant, how did we never come across a 60 round mag on reach when they were supposedly standard
were they even standard?
carmine sleet
Not for UNSC Army
versed helm
My headcanon is that one or two are probably carried by each UNSC soldier for suppression fire.
carmine sleet
Aye, that would make sense
versed helm
Since the UNSC seems have run with the US Marine Corps' IAR approach
"point suppression"
analog violet
probably not every soldier but maybe in most armories or ships
versed helm
If your rifles are good enough you can use sustained accurate fire over overwhelming fire to keep the enemy's heads down
Against the Covenant I guess it just lets you dump more rounds into an energy shield before you have to reload
analog violet
lmao
the more lead in them the better
was there ever a case of insurrectionists getting spartan armor?
If so, what are countermeasures?
analog violet
oh yeah
carmine sleet
They attempted to get Blue Team during the war but were stopped by Kurt saving Blue Team and throwing a mine at the innies
storm flume
When Gen2 came around though I can see it being more of a concern
fair hazel
Just because you don’t see something in the game specifically doesn’t mean it wasn’t there
analog violet
Were all Spartans literally brainwashed to the point they would never join a rebellion?
fair hazel
Innie Spartans
versed helm
Sounded like someone said "Mickey"
fair hazel
The brain wash didn’t become permanent
versed helm
Scumbag
fair hazel
Even for spartan 2s
storm flume
There were a couple spartans with Insurgent sympathies weren't there?
gilded mason
Yes
versed helm
You talk about brainwashing as if they were zapped
fair hazel
Soren
versed helm
It's just human socialization - they were raised by the UNSC military so they were very unlikely to follow the insurrection's arguments
fair hazel
Remarkably the Spartans were able to break out of indoctorinstion. For some it took years
versed helm
Which are honestly arguments that are a little unfair for Earth
analog violet
Well obviously not, they were fed information that dehumanized their opponent
storm flume
Indoctrination is more accurate
fair hazel
Linda. John. Kelly.
versed helm
Spartans don't dehumanize their enemy as much as even regular Marines do
versed helm
Comparing TFoR and Contact Harvest.
Spartans acknowledge that they're killing humans and see it as necessary
Johnson just forced himself to think of his enemies as "innies"
fair hazel
Also just because Linda John and Kelly broke out doesn’t mean they don’t see the unsc as the best option there quite so.
I should look into Fred.
versed helm
I still think you guys are looking at this whole "indoctrination" thing like it's some kind of whacky cartoon
It's not a believable representation
As Spartans grew older and learned more about the world, empathized with more people and saw more perspectives it's undeniable that any simple lies or biased information they were fed wouldn't hold weight.
Halsey even alludes to this
But that's just a part of growing up, really
storm flume
She intentionally told them the truth when they first arrived on Reach because she knew lying to them would be very bad in the long term
versed helm
It wasn't some hokey mental barrier thing that they could shatter by thinking hard enough about, it's about being willing to reassess your views and receiving more information
And put it this way - despite the fact that the Spartan IIs are painfully aware of all the downsides of the UEG and what the UNSC did to them
They're still almost completely loyal to the cause
With some notable exceptions, naturally.
fair hazel
I feel like Fred is the one who is the most tied to the unsc
versed helm
I feel like you could technically say that's the members of Red Team xD
versed helm
It's ironic, because Fred also has the most empathetic connection with an individual who doesn't share UNSC values.
versed helm
Funnily enough it seems like Fred rubbed off on Lopis instead of the other way around.
fair hazel
Fred is still outgoing and humorous
storm flume
As Iona put it in Blood Line, "They don't fight for honor, they fight for their brothers and sisters to the left and right of them."
versed helm
I guess he's a true UEG patriot xD
storm flume
Something along those lines
fair hazel
Think Fred will get his break away from the unsc arc?
versed helm
Does he have a reason to?
He's seemingly content, all his buddies are all-in with the UNSC
He doesn't seem blind to non-UNSC perspectives, he just sticks to his guns
fair hazel
Let’s remember the unsc aren’t necessarily the ultimate Good guys in halo
Grey
But hey. Fred is still more loyal to his team. As evidenced by halo 5
versed helm
Sure, but my personal morality leads me to think that what they represent is most acceptable
fair hazel
“They can’t court martial all of us, right?”
versed helm
And y'know, here's a question for you - why didn't Chief trust the Infinity to handle Cortana?
"I don't like it."
He's aware that something was up and he needed to be there, for the good of mankind.
If he was that attached to Cortana, he wouldn't have been so quick to accept that she was in the wrong.
fair hazel
He had a vision of Cortana
versed helm
Well, "if he was attached to Cortana in that way" is probably better phrasing.
fair hazel
Yet the unsc randomly denies him the mission he sets for himself and they say they already know and have teams?
What is in that way?
versed helm
In such a way that he'd go after her out of jealousy.
fair hazel
Besides. It’s after what happens on meridian that starts realizing
versed helm
Instead of having legitimate concerns which impact what he stands for.
fair hazel
Jealousy?
versed helm
We're out of sync here
versed helm
I believe that if John didn't have humanity's best interests at heart the only explanation for why he'd go after Cortana is something irrational, like jealousy.
fair hazel
Jealousy, I don’t think that’s be the right word at all.
storm flume
I'm also having a hard time following
fair hazel
Cortana was John’s friend.
versed helm
It's obvious to me that for the reasons you stated, he believed it was both tactically and morally the better option for him to go after her, rather than because of his own personal reasons.
Whatever they may be.
Alright, jealousy is a bad word - I'm not implying anything romantic if that's what you think.
fair hazel
He didn’t like the situation. Very odd. Especially since he got, a vision
Imagine getting a vision.
versed helm
My whole point is that Chief is still pretty in with the UNSC and the human race as a whole.
fair hazel
You call your boss. And they say they’ve already got it handèled
versed helm
And denying orders in that circumstance proves it.
Otherwise, to explain it you need to fall back on more personal justifications which I don't think hold water.
fair hazel
Him operating within the unsc doesn’t mean he’s compliant to everything
fair hazel
Hesnkore wbout protecting others and humanity than a loyal soldier for the unsc
versed helm
I'm just trying to say that he's still aligned with the UNSC of his own volition and acts in humanity's best interests.
versed helm
And I think that particular notion is at odds with the idea of him "breaking brainwashing".
I think the process which led to his current position is a more involved and introspective one that doesn't necessarily involve direct UNSC deception.
fair hazel
No. He redéploys himself. He assigns himself to mission. Takes on what he thinks is good. And operates intelligently within parameters.
Not that he’ll wait for the next set of unsc orders and let others do the thinking
versed helm
He's also proved that he functions best that way.
fair hazel
Collateral damage. Current John would have likely made it so the insurrection Also boarded the pelican.
storm flume
He got addicted to it imo. From the very beginning, when Mendez wouldn't give the Spartans-in-training time to think.
versed helm
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you about anything here, I'm just trying to establish a more empathetic and emotionally grounded interpretation of events.
fair hazel
More empathetic??
versed helm
Yeah - having a more grounded and realistic understanding of Chief's own perspective, and how it evolved over time.
His actions in Halo 5 aren't being called into question.
I just want to be absolutely clear about this brainwashing thing - I think if he were "brainwashed" , once he came into contact with the world in a more meaningful way and grew to understand things better he'd recognize that he was lied to (which is sort of a prerequisite for brainwashing, in my book).
What has formulated his perspective on the world is the fact that he has been exposed and educated upon the genuine beliefs held by Halsey and the UNSC at large. For it to be brainwashing, it would need to involve a selective vetting of information which could compromise his beliefs.
Of course, the double-edged sword there is that if they ever find out they were lied to they'd be angry - Halsey's knowledge of this fact, and her approach to introducing them to the program, tells me that their education was probably more open-minded than you'd expect.
storm flume
She made it a point to tell them the truth, against Deja and Mendez's recommendation
versed helm
Otherwise, as they came into contact with the world and opposing perspectives, it seems likely that all of them would've gone their own way instead of just the few that did.
So regardless of how they feel about being turned into what they are, I think it's not just likely but realistic that the Spartans are still with the UNSC because they think the UNSC is right.
storm flume
27 years of fighting genocidal aliens alongside the UNSC may also have a part in solidifying such an opinion lol
versed helm
That is true
bros i got a question on the covenant
so if the prophets knew the halo rings were a lie
why did they still want to fire them
gilded mason
All they knew was that not everyone could be saved.
Which ran contrary to what they taught
gilded mason
The latter, I guess. They thought the rings would grant everyone ascension, but then MB gave them the idea that humans were left behind from the previous firing. Which isn't what people would wanna hear. Or something like that.
versed helm
or was it they knew the humans were the reclaimers
and that would contradict their whole religeous jihad against the humans
Personally I have a theory that Truth knew more or less everything about the rings we know and up until the discovery of Delta Halo was actively hoping never to find a ring in his lifetime
gilded mason
Hm.
versed helm
And once Delta Halo was found he committed to the great schism plan as a way of killing all the threats in the galaxy to save himself
I personally think after he, Regret and Mercy learned about the reclaimer mistranslation, he looked into it further than they did
I can't remember exactly why I thought of that theory though.
gilded mason
Disappointment over his H3 characterization?
versed helm
No, it was to do with Regret arriving to Earth in the spectacularly unfortunate manner he did
So Regret found out about the Ark from Meridian, right?
gilded mason
Ye
versed helm
Did Truth also find out about it from there?
gilded mason
¯_(ツ)_/¯
versed helm
Halopedia seems to think not
gilded mason
I think there might have been something about ilovebees somewhere
carmine sleet
We know Truth at least knew where Earth was thanks to First Strike, whether he knew the Portal to the Ark was on Earth before Regret's attack or not is unclear
versed helm
These are apparently the relevant sources
Well actually it's all just here https://www.halopedia.org/Ten_Twenty
Tbh
Halo's story got really nonsensical about halfway through Halo 2
And didn't become more coherent until Halo 4
I often forget that
gilded mason
halfway through Halo 2
Whatcha mean?
versed helm
Pretty much as soon as Chief kills Regret stuff starts getting real unexplained and whacky
And it persists in Halo 3
gilded mason
No disagreements on the H3 part.
versed helm
So much rationalization for what actually happened in those games regarding the Great Schism, what the deal was with the prophets, the In Amber Clad, etc. isn't actually in the games
It's scattered across random bits of supplemental media
So as far as I can discern
analog violet
As a guy who only played the games and never got to fully complete halo 2, I had no idea there was a central plot
versed helm
Despite what they learned about the reclamation/reclaimers, the hierarchs still believed in the concept of the Great Journey, apparently, and their primary goal was to see it fulfilled.
Post CH I mean
analog violet
Like, what in God's name made the creators of the Ark to put a portal on earth? How did truth even know where it led? Why were none of his ships shot down the second they tried to get to the portal if there were frigates surrounding it already? None of it explained in the game
versed helm
So in the intervening years not only did they not uncover more information about the Forerunner array, but apparently Truth starts getting real schemy and starts hiding stuff from the other two prophets.
Well the Ark stuff is explained in the Forerunner books
Truth knew where it led off information that he either got from Meridian or someplace else
The frigates were kept out of effective engagement range by heavy AAA emplacements
And also the idea of the frigates was a surprise attack to destroy the portal - in all likelihood, there's no way they could've actually taken on the Covenant ships we see.
But I guess the hope was that their MACs could wipe out the keyship
But aaaaanyway
Continuing on from where I was
So I think the most likely possibility is that Covenant troops retrieved the Meridian luminary, and Truth got his hands on the information from it some time before Regret did
But at this point it gets real crazy because he decides with this information, despite supposedly being a religious zealot above all else (despite the big hiccup his entire religion suffered in CH), to keep it all entirely to himself an amass a huge invasion fleet to attack Earth without his prophet buddies knowing.
Which Chief destroys in First Strike
But then after that Regreat finally figures out the luminary information that Truth already had and goes off on his own.
Gets rekt
Truth finds a new fleet to follow him in
While dispatching the rest of the Covenant to the location of Installation 05
🙄
Nah this is too much my brain is broken
Did Truth and Regret know about installation 05 prior to Regret's arrival on Earth?
Why not go there first
ALSO
Why did Truth not go there first if he had the same information
Unless Truth actually had a different source of information from the one on Meridian that didn't tell him about Installation 05 but did tell him about Earth
Screw this I'm going insane
vivid dust
wait how would Truth know about 05?
versed helm
Cuz Regret did
From the luminary that showed him where Earth was
Wait you're right
I misunderstood your question
If Regret didn't tell the other prophets what he'd found how did they know about 05 enough to send high charity there?
vivid dust
I guess Regret contacted them upon arrival or something?
versed helm
So Truth must have gotten his info from the same place Regret did - the Meridian luminary - but first.
Or that, maybe.
versed helm
Actually that's most likely
When Regret was asking for help he must've spilled his guts about 05
Which he made the judgement call to go to Earth instead of
I guess this means that Truth's source for Earth wasn't the same as Regret's source for Earth and 05?
@obsidian thistle I saw you typing before, do you have a take on this?
Eh, I guess this rationalizes things well enough
gilded mason
What's the relevant part say?
versed helm
It's the Discovery of Earth segment
Obviously there's no info on how he discovered Earth
But it infers what was going through his head
The article sticks to the meglomaniac route
gilded mason
Ah
versed helm
This is a helpful watch I'd overlooked
So Regret's perspective is that he finds the Meridian luminary, it takes some time to decipher, when the information is retrieved and he learns of the Ark he has a fit of faith and flies there at once. That much is fair enough.
Interesting that he doesn't seem to have told anyone else about the Meridian luminary, though. Then again, Truth did the same with his own mysterious source so I guess that's just expected behaviour for the prophets (anyone have an idea why?).
So Truth tried his first attack even before the end of that terminal, got thwarted in First Strike, and then just decided to wait (or I guess gather strength for another attempt?), while Regret jumped off and did all the Earth stuff. Truth's source may have come from humanity itself, actually, since he seems to be aware Earth isn't just the location of the portal but humanity's homeworld, which is why he was packing the big guns.
Either way, Regret gives up the info as he's begging for help, and Truth dispatches a fleet for Earth while he (in High Charity) heads for 05. Question - why did Regret jump to installation 05 and not back to High Charity?
inner basin
I feel that each of the High Prophets wanted to betray the others to have full control over the entire Covenant, but I could be wrong.
versed helm
I feel like we need more books about Covenant politics
By which I mean books and stories which involve Covenant politics
Not like
High Council hansard
xD
inner basin
I mean in Halo 2 when we were on our way to kill Regret, Cortana says “It sounds like you’ll be doing Truth a favour”. Also in Halo 2 on High Charity, Truth doesn’t allow Tartarus to save Mercy, but I could just be over speculating
gilded mason
By which I mean books and stories which involve Covenant politics
👌 👌 👌
versed helm
Oh, Beast, you're totally right!
The thing that I always forget about these games is that while the events are goofy
The dialogue is 👌
last anchor
Looters going ham as usual
versed helm
It's what I do
strong sage
Guys i have a question about Forerunner navy ships , what kinda of metal or material they used for their ships? I know that we use Titanium A3 while covenant use Nano laminates plating. What about forerunner thou fam? ^^
unique rune
magical Forerunner metal
versed helm
That's not a very productive answer
The Mantle's Approach had a hull of "Programmable matter held together by hard light bonds and energy interlocks," referencing Halopedia.
unique rune
I was gonna check Halopedia but I remembered I actually had a copy of Warfleet within ten steps of me.
versed helm
Halopedia got that from Warfleet, I'm wiling to bet.
versed helm
Anyway, the odds are that "programmable matter" is some kind of nano-active material that can be programmed into the desired state through Forerunner construction methods, whatever they may be.
It's likely that their control over the atomic structure of the materials they use is so complete they don't even really have to bother with the sort of materials sourcing more conventional construction takes
So they just take one malleable material and do as they will with it
It'd sure simplify materials production.
unique rune
Forerunner vehicles seem to essentially be "grown", if I'm understanding the way design seeds and assembler vats seem to work correctly.
versed helm
I thought the assembler vats were a Covenant thing, though it makes sense that they'd be appropriated Forerunner tech.
None of the relevant sources are super fresh in my head though
unique rune
The Warfleet pages on Dragoons, Phaetons, Guardians, and Anodyne Spirit each mention assembler vats.
versed helm
Oh, what does it say about their hulls too?
I'd break out my own book but I'm on the bounce
Which is a very Starship Troopers way of saying I'm moving about xD
unique rune
Not seeing anything on Guardians...
Anodyne Spirit doesn't seem to say anything about hull composition either.
The Phaeton page mentions that many Forerunner machines are made up of "self-assembling micro-machine blocks reinforced by energy bonds".
So basically the same thing as the Mantle's Approach.
And the Dragoon page also doesn't appear to talk about composition.
inner basin
@versed helm May be a bit late to this but an example of the programmable material is when the Didact’s ship (the Mantle’s Approach) was shot by Infinity’s duel Mac canons. It’s the way the ship reshaped itself to cover the hole made. I know your spot on with your canon from outside the games, but maybe polish it from in the games. That was not me trying to be rude in anyway, but perhaps something you should maybe check?
versed helm
🤷
Maybe I was just thinking too micro-level.
In discussions of Halo ship materials it's normally about the composition of the material rather than what it can do.
But it does make sense that it would be matter that is programmed to take a certain form but holds certain base properties rather than matter than can be reprogrammed into holding different properties. Maybe it's both.
And if by "something you should maybe check" you mean "go play Halo", then I'm happy to oblige @inner basin
tardy zodiac
UNSC infinity is too over-powered
It's too strong
unique rune
It's... really not, but alright.
unique rune
How...?
tardy zodiac
Infinity is too strong XD
unique rune
I.
Okay.
I don't think that's a valid reason...
unique rune
Because the Covenant never attacked Forerunner ships...?
tardy zodiac
They did
versed helm
I mean the thing about the Mantle's Approach is that apparently Earth's orbital defences were ineffective against it
Which were SMACs
Just like what Infinity has
So why was Infinity able to create a hole (which then sealed) but orbital SMACs weren't?
unique rune
because the plot demanded it
tardy zodiac
because Infinity's one is more powerful
gilded mason
Would a closer range effect things?
Though since it's space, doesn't feel like it would
versed helm
Reading the transcript, possibly the fact that Chief took out those flak guns allowed for a really optimal angle into a calculated weak point
Though I'm a little astounded that the Mantle's Approach didn't have shields
gilded mason
I thought I remembered seeing shields either at the start of Composer, or the start of Midnight.
unique rune
The Mantle's Approach has shields for slipspace protection, but I dunno how exactly those factor into combat.
carmine sleet
Start of Midnight, Chief and Cortana fly under them since the Broadsword's shields aren't rated for Slipspace jumps
versed helm
Obviously those aren't combat shields
I was referring directly to the fact that when Infinity's MACs blew open a hole in the ship
Those MAC slugs did not encounter any kind of protective barrier before contacting the hull
tardy zodiac
but it's still strong
Covi energy projector could not make a hole on the didact's ship
carmine sleet
We don't see Covies fighting the Mantal's Approach so we don't know if a energy projector could damage it or not
unique rune
Also because Covenant energy projectors rely on being used for long durations, rather than a single blast of brute, penetrating force.
tardy zodiac
Also you think it's small
I agree it is a small hole compared with a didact's ship size
It's 142000 meters
So
let me make that hole on the Covi shup
Look at this
Infinity made more bigger hole then few frigates
It might kill CSO in 1 shot
unique rune
I... I really, really doubt that.
carmine sleet
That's a link to a debate about the Death Star Vs Mantel's Approach. I don't see the relevance of the Death Star in this discussion
unique rune
At roughly 30 miles (48.3 km) long, the distance from the level's starting point near the top of the ship to the Composer's location near the bottom is far shorter than the vessel's canonical height (371 kilometers) would entail. This is likely because the ship was not intended to be so large prior to the official establishment of its size, as evidenced by its scale against other vessels in the game's cutscenes.
Considering this note on Halopedia... It's entirely possible that the size of the hole as depicted in-game isn't 100% accurate.
So figuring out its size by trying to scale it won't give particularly accurate results.
stoic peak
In Halo The Flood it says there were ODST on the Pillar Of Autumn and they played a huge part during the battle of Installation 04, but during the book even in the "DEFINITIVE EDITION" it mentions them wearing the same armor as the Marines not ODST Gear, so my qustion is why were they wearig the same gear as the Marines ? Not even the Definitive Edition fixed this.
obsidian thistle
Use the gear you have. Thats something ODST are known for.
stoic peak
@obsidian thistle so were they wearing ODST battle armor that we usualy see or Marine Armor ?
obsidian thistle
I'd say it depends on the scenario.
Cause correct me if I am wrong. The book doesnt really go into detail what they wore bar descriptions that fit both CEA Marine armor and normal ODST armor.
And even then in some points in CEA ODSTs did wear non-ODST armor. (Granted that can easily be gameplay but still)
And then we have Fireteam Raven. Which confirms some ODST were kitted out in ODST gear.
stoic peak
@obsidian thistle i think the Definitive Edition could have fixed this by describing The ODST in ODST Battle Gear.
obsidian thistle
Tbf its not really important. ODST wore both Marine and ODST BDUs.
inner basin
Well you need to remember ODSTs are part of the Marine Corps, and are Marines, with a special role.
jovial temple
they're more than marines they more like the first ones there
the first ones to "drop" in
a lot of odst's didn't respect spartans
stoic hamlet
most Special Forces units didn't respect Spartans
trail willow
ODST’s are elite marines who drop in the front line
jovial temple
outfitted in some of the best gear the unsc has
trail willow
Most of the time
inner basin
Yes, that’s what their special role is, hence why I said “with a special role” further up
trail willow
Ik
inner basin
Although they’re not always sent in to the front lines, well it’s technically behind enemy lines, but sometimes they go on assassination missions, like Mission to Heinan (or however the place is spelt).
jovial temple
after reading new blood i came to question; could ODST Pods even penetrate solemn Penance had it not jumped into slipspace? i didn't know it killed every ODST in the sky except alpha nine because they switched their lz last second because it DID jump to slipspace but what if it didn't?
wouldn't the covie's shields obliterate them?
or at least bounce them away?
inner basin
Well at the velocity they were heading, I think they would’ve penetrated the shields. Also it’s not confirmed if all the ODSTs did die in the city. It’s possible others could’ve activated their chutes and landed somewhat fine.
jovial temple
well the rest of them were heading towards solemn penance so that's highly unlikely
it would be pure luck
but I see what you're saying. Perhaps they were going fast enough to break in if that didn't happen
inner basin
Not really. None of them were near the LZ yet when it jumped. Next time you play ODST, just look down through the glass as the bottom of your drop pod. It looks like some actually go past the ship.
Maybe they were to board it from the bottom instead of drop on top of it? It seems suicidal for them to board the ship from dropping on top of it as although they may pierce the shields, the occupant probably would’ve died.
modest marsh
Well at the velocity they were heading, I think they would’ve penetrated the shields.
Not a chance
Those shields deflect MAC rounds going several kilometers per second
I’d be surprised if ODST pods ever exceeded 2km/s at their terminal velocity, and they obviously decelerate significantly prior to impact
jovial temple
this is what I was pondering. So why did the UNSC drop almost every ODST they had at it?
I don't see how they coulda boarded it
modest marsh
Shields may have been down
modest marsh
They’re invading the city, so in order to deploy troops they’d need to have their shields deactivated
trail willow
Most of the ODSTs died because they were near the ship when it went into slip space and threw them off corse killing them when they impacted
jovial temple
also debris from the space elevator coulda landed on em if they did survive
unless it was farther out
warped nimbus
Buck's squad was the only one to not go for the carrier, because of Dare's mission
unreal gate
The luckiest of bois
storm flume
Have there ever been instances, even mentioned, of ODSTs boarding a Covenant ship via drop before? Or was it sort of a last-ditch crazy idea only tried in the Battle for Earth?
Because I think it woulda been badass if there was a successful boarding via drop
versed helm
I guess the idea was that they'd decelerate the pods enough to, like, land gently on the deck?
I can't imagine a high-velocity pod would do much more than ping off the surface of Covenant hull plating.
It's a weird premise, that's for certain.
Cuz don't drop pods sorta rely on partially burying themselves?
For stability?