She chose for herself
#lore-and-universe
modest marsh
He respected that
Cortana made a decision of self sacrifice, and having learned to trust one another through their brief adventures, Chief gave her the benefit of the doubt in the same way people trust him to do the same
No one thinks it’s a little silly how Chief handled removing the bomb from Cairo?
humble yacht
What, by dragging it?
carmine sleet
I think they were more bothered about getting rid of the explosive. Sure, the timer was stopped, but for all they knew, it could've had a remote activation
storm flume
Does it not make for the most badass scene though?
jovial temple
^
carmine sleet
Had to make sure the bomb made it's target, riding it was the only way he could ensure it
jovial temple
“Sir permission to leave the station”
storm flume
"For what purpose Master Chief?"
jovial temple
The covenant seemed to be willing to kill their own troops guarding it
“To give the covenant back their bomb”
storm flume
"...Permission granted."
storm flume
This interaction was the best with Lord Hood lol
fair hazel
Huragok
vivid dust
Surely news had spread that there was a Demon on board or something
modest marsh
They were guarding it because they very likely heard about the green goober himself
fair hazel
Midnight in the heart of the midlothian
jovial temple
But when chief asked Cortana how much time was left she responded with “you don’t wanna know”
Implying it was close to detonating
humble yacht
it was more than 1 sec tho
modest marsh
Eh
jovial temple
With all those troops guarding it
humble yacht
because after turning the timer back on it took a few seconds to detonate
modest marsh
Like 5 seconds
humble yacht
enough time for chief to push off and get out of the blast zone
usually when fiction tries to push the "that was close" trope, the timer stops at 1 sec
jovial temple
That is very true
But im just pointing out the covenant left their troops to guard it and perish
If it had detonated like it was suppose to
modest marsh
Well also, mind you
How long do you think he and the Elites fought
Could’ve been 30 seconds or 5 minutes
humble yacht
well I don't think there is a canonical answer to that
because everyone takes that fight a little differently
for some players its quick, for others, they take awhile
modest marsh
It’s conceivable that had they not fought, those elites could’ve escaped with their lives
For example, if Chief was impeded or even died earlier on
humble yacht
Given Chief's battle prowess in the lore, I wouldn't be surprised if he dispatched that troop of covenant in seconds
maybe a little back and forth but canonically he probably killed them all pretty quick
though then that also begs the question of what was the canonical make up of those guards
because depending on difficulty, you've got majors and ultras
modest marsh
He’s somewhat limited in how quickly he can kill Elites in such a confined space
humble yacht
but it's not like Herioic is the "canonical" difficulty
modest marsh
Granted, a shotgun was available
But obviously, for video game reasons, he could’ve used any weapon
jovial temple
In lore. They were prob spec op elites
And maybe a zealot or two
But still they should’ve yeeted out of there when the timer was at 10 min or so
I don’t think it would’ve took chief that long to dispatch them either
He’s a monster
humble yacht
well remember, at the time, covenant were pretty fanatical
they may have been totally willing to die in the explosion if it meant taking out the station
jovial temple
That would fit Sangheli traditions so I could see that
modest marsh
They were willing to die no doubt, I’m just saying there’s reason to think they could’ve lived too
humble yacht
I mean, sure, given the opportunity, they'd leave if they were sure the bomb would go off, like they did on the other stations
but the other stations didn't have a demon coming to stop them
So I could see them being like "hold this spot, do not let the demon disarm the bomb at any costs!"
jovial temple
They say that term was an insult but one with respect. I wonder what the word “demon” really means to the Sangheli
Because it clearly doesn’t mean the same as our definition
Demons are terrifying. No respect to them whatsoever
I wonder if it holds the same meaning as the arbiter did before the great schism
As being the arbiter meant shame, thanks to the prophets
But still great power, So maybe it’s similar
Shame that he’s a heretic to their religion
modest marsh
Demon is obviously an English approximation of their term
However, recognize also that the term varies between human interpretations and languages also
Different cultures and even individuals see them differently
However, if Cole Protocol is anything to go by
Specifically the mirror sheen of the demons’ helmets is what they find unsettling
Well, and of course the fact they can stand evenly/greatly surpass even their strongest warriors
But specifically, Sangheili seem to really focus on concepts like identity and mortality, both of which are thing Spartans seemingly subvert
A Spartan is almost unrecognizable as human, they have no identifiable features aside from the cold exterior of their armor, and they are maddeningly difficult to kill
humble yacht
I think thel’s h2a description sums it up nicely
“An insult to be sure, but not without a modicum of respect.”
stable schooner
You know for the Arbiter meaning shame a lot of Elites treat the Arbiter with Respect. To be fair even in Halo 3 the Elites call Master Chief Demon.
modest marsh
Well it’s like how the humans nickname things
I’m sure the superstition bit stopped after a few years
Interesting to note, the Brutes refer to the members of Alpha Nine in ODST as “Imps”
Again, correlative with their appearance
trail willow
They are called imps by brutes cause they are smaller and wear Spartans
humble yacht
Imps are little demons. Yet atriox called the Spartans he attacked “little demons” explicitly
I wonder if it was intentional or an oversight
modest marsh
I wouldn’t read too much into it
gilded mason
That kinda makes me wonder which term came first.
modest marsh
The Covenant encountered demons first
gilded mason
Ah.
vivid dust
I don't think it qualifies as an oversight
obsidian thistle
It could be that it depends on the perception. Imps to Brutes couldbe different to our definition of Imps.
vivid dust
He just destroyed three of them
humble yacht
An oversight on the writers part I mean
vivid dust
oh no yeah I know what you meant
modest marsh
Hell, they might’ve coined the term when they encountered the Black Daggers in Silent Storm
humble yacht
I wonder if the writers didn’t realize that brutes had been established as using “little demons” to describe ODSTs
modest marsh
It’s not a detail that’s been remembered it seems
obsidian thistle
Or maybe Atriox in his idea of not following the Covenant beliefs always viewed the Spartans as not true demons.
modest marsh
It’s very much just an offhand thing you only encounter in one game, with in game dialogue
That’s another too
obsidian thistle
I mean thats a whole thing with Atriox after all. Him not being Covenant anymore.
humble yacht
Well I do think he was using the term ironically but still
modest marsh
In his own way, he’s mocking the superstitious nature of the Covenant
obsidian thistle
"Nothing but a man" I think I recall Atriox used?
humble yacht
It does seem like the point that brutes had been referring to ODSTs as the equivalent of a little demon went forgotten
obsidian thistle
Or maybe its Fleet based?
humble yacht
I don’t think it’s fleet based
At least with “demon” it wasnt
Even the prophets referred to Spartans as demons
Seems like the terminology trickled down from them
obsidian thistle
There is also the possibility "Imps" isnt a accurate term. I mean using Halo 2 as an example its very unlikely Covies spoke English the entire time.
And if Translation software was used then maybe it was a mistranslation.
Yea English speaking aliens is a pain lol
humble yacht
Well it was kind of necessary in order to make Thel relatable as a deuteragonist
modest marsh
I don’t like the “mistranslation” slant
obsidian thistle
Oh that is true. (I dont deny the real world reasonings, Halo 2 is better for it) Its just a pain.
modest marsh
Whenever translation is implied, the translation is portrayed as accurate
obsidian thistle
Thats more a 343i era thing however.
modest marsh
Is there reason to think the contrary?
It’s not like assassin’s creed where they throw in some obvious translation errors
obsidian thistle
Without anything to go off. We can only assume tbh.
humble yacht
You know what they say about assuming
modest marsh
We should assume the least then, Occam’s razor
obsidian thistle
We dont do it on wikis.
Thats what they say xD
*I'll see if that Imp debate still exists on the wiki. Halopedia had one once that went nowhere.
Nah thats long gone on both wikis. XD Shame.
If I recall it was based on a few oddies from Contact Harvest and ODST.
modest marsh
Oh?
jovial temple
ODST’s must be quite formidable to earn a nickname at the very least
Marines didn’t get none that I know of
Johnson should’ve earned a nickname
warped nimbus
I mean, look at H3 ODST
warped nimbus
A lesser Demon, ODSTs are pretty much just one layer down from spartans, similar intensive training, just no augmentations or super soldier armor, just better marine armor
Also, a part of Spartans being called demons was to the Covenant, they never seemed to die, since they were almost all the same, could never see their face, Covenant don't see ODST's faces much either
stoic hamlet
they believed Spartans were reanimated souls encased in armour and made to fight as war beasts.
warped nimbus
basically, and i imagine, to a lesser extent, the ODSTs were similar, easier to kill, but they still had the similar animosity to them
stoic hamlet
well they knew they were humans
but they'd never been able to capture a Spartan/ retrieve a body.
warped nimbus
tru, I still like to think the ODSTs were cool enough to be feared that much
ODSTs are cooler than spartans
Can't change my mind
gilded mason
they believed Spartans were reanimated souls encased in armour and made to fight as war beasts.
Huh, what book is that from?
warped nimbus
yea not to that extent, but they did believe that they didn't really die
stoic hamlet
Cole Protoca;l IIRC
stoic hamlet
and a bit in Kilo-5
warped nimbus
and I will fite u
gilded mason
...Ah.
warped nimbus
They're cool, and they do a lot of crazy stuff, but they don't drop from orbit in tin cans with the motto "Feet first into Hell"
stoic hamlet
what's your ranking of the UNSC's units then? @jovial temple
jovial temple
Sometimes they do
warped nimbus
well chief did the dropping part once
jovial temple
That’s what I’m referring to yeah
Spartan 2’s, odst, spartan 3’s, spartan 4’s, marines, army, anything else goes here. In that order :v
Johnson is an exception to that list
stoic hamlet
why are ODST's above S-III's and IV's?
warped nimbus
ODST
Spartan II
Spartan III
Pilots Good personality
Marines Also good personality and jokes
Spartan IV No personality
Something like that
Rated by the games, mostly Bungie's
jovial temple
Because they go on near suicidal missions with no spartan armor or augmentations and most of them prefer to jump manually which is even more dangerous then auto jumps.
jovial temple
And they earned the nickname “imps”
warped nimbus
ODSTs are just badass while actually trying
jovial temple
2’s are greater than 3’s but I see where that comes from
2’s have more augmentations and better armor
warped nimbus
yea 3 just under 2, just
jovial temple
The 3’s were made to be expendable and sent on suicide missions as well but almost all of them died
warped nimbus
well he's hyper lethal like Chief
mhmm
well anyway, i'ma head off for sleep, because i need to actually get some one of these nights
stoic hamlet
3's had better augs and better (at stealth) armour
and better training
and 332 of them are still alive
jovial temple
Their augs were dimmed down a bit so the survival rate would be more successful
jovial temple
If they used the same augs as they did on s 2’s then over half of them would be dead
stoic hamlet
They were able to augment 100% to the same level as the II’s with no casualties or washouts.
They didn’t need to use those augs
By the time they augmented Alpha Company a decade had passed, the new augs could do everything the II’s received but by using chemicals, not bio-mechanical components.
jovial temple
I wouldn’t say it could do “everything” the 2’s did but they are pretty similar
I believe The 2’s augs are slightly better
Plus the 2’s have 30+ years of combat experience
3’s were made to be cheap and expendable unlike the 2’s
Although the 3’s did receive better combat training I do believe they are not on the same level or superior of the 2’s
Oni’s plans was to trade their lives for time
Because they were simply not enough spartan 2’s to turn the tides of the war
stoic hamlet
I mean, the Spartan Field Guide flat out states aside from Experience II’s and III’s are equal.
Now that III’s have wide scale access to MJOLNIR the only real difference is their experience.
But even then when you think about it, if people say that preteens are nearly equal to veteran S-II’s it kinda makes you think......
jovial temple
Haha indeed
Noble six however was on par with the chief in both being the only two named “hyper lethal”
gilded mason
“hyper lethal”
aaaaaaa
stoic hamlet
Shoot me
gilded mason
I sure hope not.
storm flume
Yeah I just got here so I dunno what we're talking about but I can do with not going on
So I've recently picked up a fascination with MACs and similar weapons
Like, I'm trying to wrap my head around how exactly they work
"Magnets, how do they work" essentially lol
I'm starting to actually read the real-life science of it
tropic sandal
From my (possibly incorrect) understanding, a metal slug is positioned behind a row of electromagnets arranged in pairs, which attract the slug, pulling it forward through each following pair. The trick lies in turning off each pair of electromagnets as the slug passes so they don't try to slow it down once it passes through them. Set up a long enough row of these and it sends the slug out the barrel at ludicrous speeds
How you improve on that to make the slugs travel at near light speed is beyond my basic understanding
storm flume
So it actually drags the shell instead of pushing it
tropic sandal
The pairs are also most likely actually rings
I'm imagining so
I'd also suspect that each magnetic ring is further from the last since the projectile is accelerating more and more through each one
Now you've got me thinking about it I'd love to do some investigating into it myself
storm flume
I was thinking of a system to push it instead of pull it, seemed like it could be a lot more powerful, but also the more I think about it the more I realize it would probably destroy the ship lol
tropic sandal
Yeah I have no idea how it would affect a ship in zero G. A slug that weighs a ton would send a ship flying backwards in my head. They'll probably explain it away with some sort of inertial dampers or something
storm flume
Grav hacks or something
tropic sandal
Looking into it some more, it's likely a long coil that propels the slug too, not necessarily magnetic rings
storm flume
As the UNSC has those
tropic sandal
Something like that yeah
topaz snow
UNSC MACs fire their projectiles at 4% the speed of light, btw.
And yeah probably some inertial dampener type thing to negate recoil.
tropic sandal
That sounds small, but that's still hella fast
topaz snow
The ones in Mass Effect are 1.2% the speed of light, iirc.
storm flume
The Railgun, which is designed like a handheld MAC, is apparently recoilless
Or so its name implies
I never played around too much with it in-game so I don't remember
tropic sandal
On a handheld scale I'd have to imagine the effect isn't as significant
carmine sleet
It's recoilless in lore but has recoil in game for balancing
tropic sandal
Imagine just how devastating that thing would be without gameplay recoil
storm flume
Ah yes, let's put recoil on the gun that you have to reload after every shot anyways because balance
Actually there was one variant of it in 5 that does have 2 shots isn't there?
carmine sleet
There is
storm flume
Yeah I suppose that would be pretty broken then
topaz snow
"The casing of a recoilless rifle round is often perforated to vent the propellant gases, which are then directed to the rear by an expansion chamber surrounding the weapon's breech. ... This pushes the projectile forwards towards the target and the countermass backwards providing the recoilless effect."
Obviously the ARC-920 nor MACs use projectiles with propellants, but I don't see how the magnets that are effectively pulling a projectile would cause a significant amount of recoil anyways.
And yes, there's a version in 5 with a two-round capacity.
I mean, we feel recoil with practically every weapon in-game despite that, in-lore, the Spartans are capable of negating recoil almost completely, because balance.
tropic sandal
Actually yeah. Without a mechanical interaction there shouldn't be recoil
2nd Law still disagrees though. Hmm
topaz snow
With the exception of some action releasing the round, there wouldn't be much felt when discharging the weapon at all.
Heat energy?
tropic sandal
Well the coil pulls the slug forward, which in zero g is the same as the slug pulling the coil backward
storm flume
There's probably enough info to do the math but we're all idiots and not physicists lol
tropic sandal
Difference in mass means the slug is affected more, but there would be some recoil
Yeah I'm not qualified to really discuss this lol
topaz snow
Wait, are they actually railguns or are they coilguns?
Because if MACs/ARC-920 are considered railguns, then heed this;
"The rails and projectiles must be built from strong conductive materials; the rails need to survive the violence of an accelerating projectile, and heating due to the large currents and friction involved. Some erroneous work has suggested that the recoil force in railguns can be redirected or eliminated; careful theoretical and experimental analysis reveals that the recoil force acts on the breech closure just as in a chemical firearm."
Recoil is still felt but can be negated.
storm flume
Well the "chamber" is actually an empty space, the round doesn't go along any rails
I think once it's released for the firing mechanism it never physically touches again
topaz snow
So they'd be coilguns then, not railguns.
tropic sandal
I'm only guessing, but that sounds right to me
storm flume
"The theory behind the operation of a Magnetic Accelerator Cannon is the same as that of a coilgun. The system is a linear motor consisting of a series of magnetic coils which accelerate a metal projectile through a barrel up to high velocity. This technology is not to be confused with that of a railgun, in which a projectile is electromagnetically accelerated between two conducting rails." - Halopedia
So yeah they're coilguns
tropic sandal
That sounds pretty definitive
So MACs are different to the handheld railguns. Which by all rights should feel recoil based on Trottamon's notes above
topaz snow
Yes, so MACs are coilguns, and thus don't suffer significant recoil, whereas the ARC-920 is a proper railgun.
storm flume
"The ARC-920 uses a pair of parallel conducting rails to accelerate its projectiles. A large electric current flows from one rail into the projectile and then to the other rail; the electromagnetic effects of this interaction accelerate the projectile to an immense speed." Yup proper railgun
tropic sandal
In lore the railgun suffers no recoil, is that a system built into the gun, or is that due to compensation by Mjolnir suits or something?
Probably both.
topaz snow
Likely a system built in to the weapon plus the enhanced abilities of MJOLNIR, so yeah both.
storm flume
"Despite being a railgun, the rings that form around the barrel when charging, as well as the Railgun Kill medal depicting a projectile going through rings, seem more indicative of a coilgun.
In addition, the weapon's REQ card in Halo 5: Guardians identifies it as a coilgun." God 343 make up your mind
lol
storm flume
Could it be a hybrid? No idea if that would be feasible, or even possible
I'd probably just stick with railgun
But theoretically
topaz snow
I don't think a hybrid system would work.
tropic sandal
Both railguns and coil guns use capacitors to charge up and then dump all their energy into the apparatus all at once. But I can only imagine the 2 systems would interfere with each other
fleet wraith
quite late but im pretty sure i mightve read in one of the earlier books that the spacecrafts engines fire tandem with the mac
tropic sandal
That would make sense
fleet wraith
its been a while since ive really looked into any of the halo lore and longer since i read any books that went over it
last halo books i read was the kilo five trilogy for like the third time
tropic sandal
I really need to get up to date on the newer novels. I've been slacking off
storm flume
I'm doing the comics first
jovial temple
Same
fleet wraith
i need to reread them past kilo five lol
jovial temple
I have so much to read @.@ I’ve only read the fall of reach
fleet wraith
i always finish mortal dictata then fall into a bout of depression
because ill probably never read about port stanley and its crew ever again 😦
jovial temple
What’s a good place to order the books?
storm flume
Same gengar, I started the Flood and immediately stopped for some reason
So now I'm doing comics since they keep my attention for much longer lol
fleet wraith
if you want to keep up some semblance of a white veil over halsey's actions being good dont read kilo five lol
fleet wraith
whaaat
tropic sandal
Are those Kindle books or another digital version @fleet wraith
jovial temple
Tho it was crucial in saving the human race
fleet wraith
kindle
jovial temple
But wasn’t moral whatsoever
fleet wraith
yeah gengar the kilo five trilogy will just nail it in that halsey is the worst person ever
my buddy bought me a hard copy of halsey's journal for my birthday and i was angry reading it
fleet wraith
no clue lol
jovial temple
A buddy of mine lended it to me
jovial temple
Really provides some insight on spartan armor
I think I remember the helmet weight like over 1,000 lb’s or something like that
fleet wraith
eh more background and her milestones than anything else
no thats about the full set of armor
lol
jovial temple
Oh sorry my memory is a bit hazy
fleet wraith
even with the enhancements if a helmet weighed a thousand pounds that dude is dead
storm flume
Jesus half a ton might actually come close to breaking a Spartan's neck
fleet wraith
yeah lol
jovial temple
¯_(ツ)_/¯
fleet wraith
i hope they expand more on red team from halo wars though
maybe one day they'll finally get energy shields lol
tropic sandal
Judging by the ending of HW2, should I really need to play it so I'm up to date leading into Infinite?
fleet wraith
tbh i feel like theyre not even gonna tie it in
jovial temple
Well it sorta drops the ball at the end that it’s leading into yeah
If they don’t I’ll be so upset ;-;
tropic sandal
No hate but I never really got into Halo Wars. Played the first one for the story but never really sold me on the gameplay. Is 2 much different?
fleet wraith
yeah but infinite is many years after cortana brought the other ais into the domain
not really
theyre both rts games
i played for story too
tropic sandal
True true. I'll check it out, but I don't wanna get off topic here I guess.
jovial temple
The story is really good
Spirit of fire is like the only UNSC ship to survive the covenant lol
tropic sandal
Honestly story is 99% of my interest in it.
fleet wraith
i cant wait for locke to murderize atriox like he did my boy jul mdama
jovial temple
Atriox will murderize him
fleet wraith
literally more than three books of build up for jul mdama
to shows hes not just some dumb honor filled sanghelli
then he gets put down like a dog in the first 30 minutes by locke
like i was upsetti spaghetti
jovial temple
so sad
tropic sandal
For me the worst thing about that was it was in a cut scene, not even gameplay
jovial temple
^
tropic sandal
It was a total injustice, but that made it worse
jovial temple
When I was watching the cutscene I too thought “why am I not killing this guy myself rn”
They better not do atriox like that
Atriox vs 3 Spartans 1-0
tropic sandal
In terms of size, how does Atriox compare to Tartarus?
fleet wraith
and even then spartan 2s have problems with average brutes
not sure but he seemed a lot bigger
jovial temple
Main difference is spartan is quicker to move
fleet wraith
kinda? brutes are faster and stronger than sanghelli
theyre just not as smart on average
jovial temple
But they can’t run 120mph
fleet wraith
neither can spartans
tropic sandal
Kelly's fast, but not that fast
jovial temple
What’s the fastest speed spartan 2’s can reach?
fleet wraith
john was put out of commission running 60mph
tore his achilles tendon
kelly is generally the agreed upon fastest spartan 2 and she runs at a sustained speed of around 30mph
i dont remember the specific number but its around 30mph
tropic sandal
Her top speed was clocked at 62mph
tropic sandal
Sorry, 62kph. 38.5m,ph
jovial temple
Brutes are bulky which would make them sluggish
fleet wraith
difference between running speed and reaction speed
brutes have already been shown to be quite deceiving with their size
tropic sandal
Yeah straight-hauling it they're all fast, but quick decisive actions are different
fleet wraith
theyre stronger than sanghelli and theyre faster than they seem
atriox is obviously smarter than the average brute and he has specialized training for hunting spartans
plus red team in halo wars didnt have up to date armor
fleet wraith
? i dont remember them having thruster in hw2 but i may be misremembering
in game they have shields but in canon they dont
jovial temple
I think it has shields in game yeah
fleet wraith
plus as the armor goes through further generation they enhance the spartans more and more
jovial temple
It’s possible that Isabelle is able to upgrade the mark IV and integrate shields at the cost of having a really long recharge timer
But I don’t think it’s canon though
fleet wraith
i mean you cant just make the shields come out of nowhere
the mk4 mjolnir just wasnt capable of it
tropic sandal
There's gameplay of Red Team using thrusters, but I can't tell if it's from HW1 or 2
Maybe not in lore, but in gameplay they have them
fleet wraith
could be in lore without being breaking
there are thruster that just attach to armor
doesnt necessarily have to be integrated into the armor like in halo 5
jovial temple
That seems more plausible of an upgrade I guess
tropic sandal
Yeah true. It's hard to keep track sometimes, as I thought gameplay kinda counted as canon
fleet wraith
itd be kinda neat to see a canon-esque difficulty in halo
plasma pistols are deadly as hell in the books lol
plus depending on the model some have like 400 shots
tropic sandal
I always think back to Samuel's fate in the first Spartan contact with Covenant and just how lethal plasma pistols are
fleet wraith
yeah exactly
jovial temple
When Douglass’s helmet was crushed by atriox it was repaired by new tech onboard the spirit of fire but couldn’t be replicated ofc. There were components they found from the unsc outpost on the ark
tropic sandal
The disparity between lore and gameplay can be jarring
fleet wraith
even if theyre not overcharged theyll run through even odst armor if its not a glancing blow
jovial temple
And some modifications made by Isabelle
fleet wraith
hmm
jovial temple
To remain combat operational
fleet wraith
she was a research ai
so maybe she made shields?
but to be fair the mjolnir armor was an EXTREMELY controlled piece of unsc hardware
jovial temple
This what I had in mind.
reverse-engineered solutions developed by Serena before she was terminated
Also
fleet wraith
and the shields the unsc developed were extremely secret and wouldnt be known to most ai
rip serena
went out on her own
jovial temple
What a legend
fleet wraith
what a lonely existence for her last few years though
feels bad when you realize theyre basically humans
tropic sandal
She seemed pretty straight edged, but seeing how emotionally ruined Isabelle was makes you wonder what she really felt
jovial temple
I’m trying to find a canon answer about whether it’s possible or not for Isabelle to input shields
Yeah true
fleet wraith
nah that was just the way she displayed herself
all the smart ais had emotions
you could kinda see hers if you paid attention during the first game
and you could definitely hear it in her last few words for cutter
fleet wraith
isabelle definitely shouldve had knowledge of energy shielding because she was a research ai on a forerunner installation
but again the mjolnir armor was so controlled
jovial temple
That’s where the reverse-engineering tech Serena had developed beforehand comes into play
At least I would think
Ima do some more research this is killing me
They had shields in hw1 but that def wasn’t canon
jovial temple
Jerome also stores isabelle in his helmet and that wasn’t introduced until mark5 either
Maybe it’s similar to like a USB port but they just can’t talk to each other
Oh I found something interesting
fleet wraith
i mean the port isnt part of the armor its part of the neural interface in his actual head
i think they dropped the ball on the lore like youre saying
but its possible that jerome would have it
but i think they dropped the ball with the lore like youre saying
jovial temple
Red team was part of an advanced hardware program that allowed modifications to their armor. They were testers of the prototype energy shielding that would be incorporated into mark 5
I need to find sources for this
Otherwise it’s likes a grain of salt
fleet wraith
? whered you read that
fleet wraith
well there werent any visual indications of them having energy shields during their fight with atriox
also the reason i say that its possible jerome couldve had the proper neural interface for the ai chip is because the halo wars red team were originally washouts from the spartan program due to their bodies rejecting the augmentations
so maybe when they were reaugmented the new neural interface had been designed and given to them
but by that time the other spartan 2s were already being fielded so they werent able to get it
which could be an explanation as to why theyre using mk4 but can still interface with ais
heavy linden
I thought the lore reason behind the armor in HW2 was they mixed the existing armor with parts of Gen 2 that was on the Ark
carmine sleet
They did
heavy linden
Explains the shielding and AI capability
Gen 2 seemed compatible with AI as standard
And the AI capable neural interface is also standard for S4s
Probably could've given the upgrade to Jerome
obsidian thistle
Actually Red team already had shields.
modest marsh
😒
obsidian thistle
I know some folks dont like it. But it is what it is.
jovial temple
i think they were testers for the mark 5 shields
but i still gotta find a source for that
been busy
feral perch
There's nothing saying that they didn't have experimental Mark IV with energy shields
that's good enough for me lol
jovial temple
How so?
inner basin
It kinda does work. They (after being revived) were given the option to test energy shielding in Mk. IV armour, which they accepted.
jovial temple
^ that’s similar to what I was thinking
stoic hamlet
Because the shields were equipped on at least 9 Spartans before 2532, but after Red Team vanishes, shielding doesn’t appear again until 2545 at the earliest and that’s with SPI armour , and no S-II in TFOR has ever heard of the shields, there treated like an entirely new invention.
inner basin
- Remember that the other Spartan-IIs didn’t know of Red Team (as they were washouts)
stoic hamlet
Granted we know Mark V with shielding was green lit/fist deployed in November 2551, but there its more plausible that Spartans wouldn’t know about the shields
inner basin
Such as the Spartan-III program
stoic hamlet
What about Omega?
Why, if nearly a dozen Spartans had fielded shields, were they kept secret for nearly 20 years?
Thats not the same
Those can’t be compared
jovial temple
Because red team has been missing for 20 years and still is
inner basin
It was experimental stuff they were trying. They wouldn’t come out and say, hey, we’re working on energy shielding that is still experimental
jovial temple
To the rest of the unsc at least
stoic hamlet
But Omega isn’t @jovial temple
They also had shields
For 20 years @inner basin? That doesn’t make sense
inner basin
Also it can be assumed Omega are also washouts as they worked closely with Red Team. Remember at this point Omega is only a 3 man team. They become a 6 man team in October 2558, I think
stoic hamlet
Who also had shields
jovial temple
Red team is a faction of omega
Ohh I thought you were talking about gamma company for some reason
inner basin
No, Red Team only worked closely with Omega, not a faction
jovial temple
I need to look more into this when I have the free time
carmine sleet
Omega had always been deployed differently to the other Spartan teams, being a fast reaction unit
jovial temple
Yep
They were there first on Arcadia
While red team was in a dif location nearby
inner basin
I still think they are washouts if they worked closely with Red Team
stoic hamlet
That’s still not a reason for shields to not appear again for 20 years
You can’t use “Red Team has the only prototypes” while also saying shields in gameplay is canon
inner basin
Well remember energy shielding is new to the UNSC. They’d have to understand it, to use it effectively
carmine sleet
It's quite possible Omega wasn't assigned to NAVSPECWEAP by the time of 2552 as well, explaining why the team didn't appear during the Fall of Reach
stoic hamlet
sigh
inner basin
You do understand that energy shielding tech was new to the UNSC, and that they were probably incorporating it into other things like the Sabres and testing them along with the energy shielded armour.
stoic hamlet
2531: at least 9 Spartans are equipped with energy shields, 3 go missing.
6 are still around and all fine.
The next reference of shielding is at the earliest 2545, with S-III Headhunters testing it on SPI.
2551, Energy Shielded Mark V is green lit and deployed in mass qualities.
See a problem here?
Because I do
inner basin
I actually don’t see a problem, if you factor Sabres in there. Remember they were equipped with energy shields. They probably had rigorous testing too.
carmine sleet
It also makes sense for them to have prototypes of the technology, something like energy shields wouldn't be something they could easily make work. It would take years of work for them to reverse engineer the tech from a more advanced group, iterating on the technology until they can mass produce it. It could be that they were struggling to make it cost efficient enough to mass produce it for years
stoic hamlet
Additionally we have the description of GEN1 Grenadier which states it was a test bed for energy shielding but wasn’t introduced until 2535
modest marsh
This armor had shields? The Master Chief had known that ONI research had been working on adapting Covenant technology; Spartans had standing orders to capture Covenant machines wherever they could. The researchers and engineers had announced some breakthroughs in artificial gravity—some UNSC ships were already undergoing trials with the grav systems. The fact that the MJOLNIR armor possessed shields was a stunning breakthrough. For years, there had been no luck back-engineering Covenant shield tech. Most in the scientific community had given up hope of ever cracking it. Maybe that’s why Dr. Halsey was worried. Maybe they hadn’t worked out all the bugs.
inner basin
It wasn’t experimental, it was the final build. That would explain why it became a class in the end, Eternal
inner basin
Yes. It’s not a prototype, yes it was a testbed but not a prototype. There is a big difference in those two terms. Also if it was a prototype, why would Grenadier become a Mjolnir-class?
stoic hamlet
It’s Halopedia article states it tested shields but those tests failed
inner basin
Well it could be trying new technology? Maybe the armour systems (that are different in each class) aren’t compatible with the energy shielding (in the tests that is).
We do know in the final build that the shielding did work. It could be the positioning of the armour shielding emitter (which was an odd position), was causing problems. I still think that the 9 Spartans (Red Team and Omega + 3 others), with Mk. IV energy shielding suits are wearing prototype suits, which they were testing. I still don’t know who the other 3 Spartans were as Red Team and Omega were only 6 total.
stoic hamlet
No there were 6 with Omega deployed to Arcadia not including Red Team.
There are 3 confirmed alive as of 2558, but the other 3 are unknown.
Lemme try and find a pic
inner basin
I read somewhere that they became 6 in October 2558, with us only knowing 3 of them.
stoic hamlet
First pic in the gallery
Six Spartans deploy in that mission not including Red Team
modest marsh
I don’t know how I feel about shields being implemented at all from a functional standpoint, because it’s important to remember how much of a energy dump it is
jovial temple
Just tryna figure out why red teams suits could be upgraded
As Mjolnir is highly sealed tight
modest marsh
Why?
jovial temple
However Isabelle was able to upgrade them
stoic hamlet
The seal wouldn’t affect the potential for upgrades
jovial temple
That’s a figure of speech
modest marsh
The spirit of fire and the UNSC outposts on the Ark would have tools
stoic hamlet
I don’t know what you mean by seal?
inner basin
Well sure Master Chief’s was upgraded between Halo 3 and Halo 4
modest marsh
Opening up MJOLNIR I assume
scenic edge
Suit seal.
jovial temple
And tampering with it
modest marsh
We don’t talk about that one
inner basin
Still in the lore
stoic hamlet
hisses
modest marsh
It’s not relevant here anyway
inner basin
Well it is if we’re talking about Mjolnir upgrades
stoic hamlet
Not really
modest marsh
The circumstances for Red Team are completely different
inner basin
It was only Douglas who had the hybrid so maybe there was a station where she performed it?
jovial temple
They all had modifications done not just Douglas
Also halopedia mentions something about Serena’s reverse-engineering tech that took part in this
modest marsh
Stuff that would’ve been changed to update their armor would include replacing their fusion reactor with a newer version, integrating AI-compatibly, replacing the liquid crystal layer with a next gen one, and of course shield emitters
jovial temple
Shield emitters is the big headache rn
modest marsh
I would think the thrusters were also modified to increase their output, given prior to GEN2 we never saw them have the output to launch a Spartan the several dozen meters they do in game
Uh
modest marsh
The liquid crystal is more concerning considering that the armor requires that to be changed in order to contain the processing power necessary to house an AI
That and the power output
Plus uh
jovial temple
Ah there it is! I found it in halopedia
In February 2531, Red Team, composed of Jerome-092, Douglas-042, and Alice-130, was deployed on Arcadia along with the six-member Team Omega;[11] these Spartans' MJOLNIR Mark IV armor was equipped with a prototypical energy shield system which would not become standard until the release of the Mark V 20 years later.
Source is halo: the essential visual guide page 119
jovial temple
Yep
@stoic hamlet
There
I knew something was up with this
That means the gameplay is canon
Gah that saves me the biggest headache
Yes! Lol
modest marsh
I mean the efficacy of said shield is unknowable
jovial temple
It probably recharges extremely slow
jovial temple
Well being experimental and all
But yeah atleast we know they had them
Though I do wonder how durable they were
Probably not like the final product
That guide states that “early Spartans had field tested this tech as earlier as 2531”
Energy shielding that is
For the mark V
modest marsh
“Experimental” isn’t a good reason to have equipment that exists and performs well enough to function but gets shelved for 20 years as if it could never work
inner basin
How do you know it functions well enough? To be it sounds like you are judging from gameplay.
jovial temple
Well I don’t think it was shelved as omega team still used it most likely
And ofc red team despite being mia
stoic hamlet
But you understand the point right?
Like only 6 Spartans equipped with it for over 20 years is absurd
modest marsh
I’m judging from the fact we can infer it was useful based on the fact they used it
stoic hamlet
I could understand if it was like 1 Spartan.
Oh I didn’t count Red Team as they went missing
So 6 were still using the shields
jovial temple
Perhaps going through upgrade after upgrade in the following 20 years until it reached where it is with mark V?
But I do see your point
inner basin
They could be continuously testing it, up until the Mk. V is starting to be developed. Also remember Black Team at some point got Mjolnir Black
jovial temple
I’m sure we can make some logic out of this
jovial temple
Well if you’re gonna do it. Then do it right
inner basin
It is also new technology. How many times do we have to say this?
carmine sleet
Sometimes it takes that long to test and work on something
stoic hamlet
It has to be something other than strength
stoic hamlet
An absurd power supply, perhaps
inner basin
Well like I said energy shielding was new tech for the UNSC
stoic hamlet
Or maybe it could only be active for certain moments
jovial temple
That too
stoic hamlet
A few minutes then disabled
jovial temple
Perhaps it would go inactive at random
carmine sleet
Like, we know it's canon they tested shields, but things like power supplies, materials, shield strength and stuff like that would've likely been things they had to make work efficiently and cost effective
Stuff like that can take decades to get right
inner basin
Discussing cost effective. Mjolnir suits costed a lot so I think that’s kinda out the window
stoic hamlet
There’s a lot of options but we don’t ever actually get any idea why this didn’t see widespread use until 20 years later because 343 just decided to make that aspect of gameplay canon without thinking about the bigger picture.
(Seemingly)
jovial temple
Well we still don’t know about omega team and where they been those 20 years
That might provide some insight
If they ever choose to focus on them
carmine sleet
It could easily be that the price of Mjolnir is the cost effective version, Beast
jovial temple
Because only these 9 Spartans had that prototype shielding that we know of
There’s definitely a gap there
That needs to be filled
inner basin
Maybe because Red Team were also not there to continue testing that it took longer to get things right, but that would only delay about a maximum time of a year
modest marsh
I’m looking at Halsey’s journal right now and it seems heavily implied that Halsey wasn’t even close to understanding shields until she made a breakthrough discovery in 2536
And then any mention of prototypes of any sort are curiously absent
jovial temple
I don’t think it was halseys doing
inner basin
Perhaps the materials group made the prototypes before her breakthrough
jovial temple
She did outfit them in Mjolnir
inner basin
Not the prototype suits though
modest marsh
How is materials group going to know how to replicate shields when their head researchers are still guessing how the tech works at all
jovial temple
But they didn’t get the prototype shielding until right before they landed on Arcadia
2531
inner basin
We actually don’t know who made the prototype suits. Maybe it was a different research group altogether
modest marsh
That seems unlikely considering how Halsey typically conducts her overseeing of the Spartan program
modest marsh
In 2536...
modest marsh
Regarding a recent find
carmine sleet
Well, they were able to give some S-IIIs Mjolnir without Halsey knowing as well so it could easily be that ONI had some sort of project working on energy shields which Halsey didn't know about
modest marsh
Why would they do that
inner basin
This makes me think that a different group did make the prototype energy shielded suits.
modest marsh
Yeah that’s bad writing
Halsey was tasked with implementing a “Mark” based system as of 2535 to reduce development costs
jovial temple
She states on that page “we’ve already learned much” are you sure this couldn’t reference as early as 2531?
modest marsh
She’s talking about the recent, breakthrough find
The text prior implies that Covenant tech is impossible to study because of how it’s built
With this particular shield generator being an exception
obsidian thistle
Note that Halsey didnt have her mits on everything. They were stuff hidden to even her.
jovial temple
It’s been a while since I read this journal
stoic hamlet
Well the III’s being given MJOLNIR without her knowing isn’t really that far fetched.
She’s not in charge of procurement or logistics.
Why would she expressly follow which suit went where?
stoic hamlet
Not this again
stoic hamlet
Nothing. I just.......ONI and most fans are an odd relationship, lol
carmine sleet
If you were the brain who came up with some highly expensive equipment and found out the people you worked for had made some suits without you knowing and sent them off to be used by super soldiers that were clearly inspired by your own program without you knowing, I think you would be mad, Eternal. I'm not saying Halsey would track every suit that was created, I'm saying that ONI have hidden stuff from her in the lore on multiple occasions
stoic hamlet
A lot assume without looking at the wider lore
jovial temple
I can’t say I’m not guilty of that but assuming is part of the fun
modest marsh
IIIs acquiring MJOLNIR can be easily explained as being given old Spartan-II equipment
jovial temple
I’ve got a lot of books to read
modest marsh
A given Spartan can go through a set of MJOLNIR pretty fast
carmine sleet
Last thing you want to do is give old equipment to a different soldier, too much risk of it failing them
Especially if it's damaged
stoic hamlet
What? @carmine sleet#813
She’s not in charge of actually building the suits, nor shipping them off, nor is she tracking them.
Does a car manufacturer track their cars and know to whom it goes to when it’s bought by a customer? Do they look up their house and the like?
Does a firearms manufacturer track their rifle and know the exact location and owner of said rifle?
It’s trivially easy to make suits without her knowing
Variants, probably not
modest marsh
Obviously after repairing it, slipstream...
carmine sleet
Again, you misunderstand what I said. Like I said, I'm not saying Halsey would track every suit that was created, I'm saying that ONI have hidden stuff from her in the lore on multiple occasions
stoic hamlet
But there’s technically nothing to hide here
modest marsh
We already know they did this with the Spartan-IVs and select GEN1 suits
jovial temple
Well if they hid energy shielding from her that seems like a pretty big hide
stoic hamlet
But I do understand, I just misread
carmine sleet
They hid the fact that they manufactured suits for the S-IIIs that were given Mjolnir because they didn't want her to find out about the S-IIIs. There was allot to hide there from her
modest marsh
ONI is ran by a bunch of pranksters, they just love giving Halsey a hard time for the heck of it because they hate her and being productive
stoic hamlet
.....why was my message deleted?
modest marsh
I’m obviously being facetious
stoic hamlet
Hmm, that was odd
modest marsh
Hiding imperative data on shield technology from her is backwards
jovial temple
Well they did interrogate her in halo 4 unless that intro cutscene meant nothing
modest marsh
Because she wastes time studying stuff they already know
stoic hamlet
Anyways, yeah, that makes no sense
jovial temple
And seemed pretty pissed about her creating spartan 2’s
stoic hamlet
There’s no reason to hide that from her and her team
What? ONI/UNSC assigned her to do it.
They gave her the funding, he manpower
jovial temple
Which is what I don’t understand
stoic hamlet
Etc
jovial temple
Then what was that interrogation really about?
stoic hamlet
That wasn’t ONI
modest marsh
Is ONI going to pay a staff of researchers, engineers, and a facility’s worth of lab resources so she can...do tests they already did 5 years prior?
carmine sleet
The person wanted to find out if they could create more super soldiers that were as effective as Chief was, Gengar, that's why they were interrogating her
inner basin
Trying to recreate the Master Chief is what the man not from ONI was trying to find out. As for before that interrogation there were ONI agents questioning
jovial temple
So it still was never confirmed who that was though?
stoic hamlet
No
carmine sleet
It likely never will be
inner basin
But remember there were ONI agents questioning Halsey before that man. If you remember her saying “The others were ONI agents, but you, you are something else”.
jovial temple
Office of Naval Intelligence
inner basin
Okay, it’s been a while
jovial temple
Aka ONI
stoic hamlet
No she just says “Naval Intelligence” But yeah she meant ONI
jovial temple
That intro always confuses me
stoic hamlet
there was no reason to say “office”
inner basin
I understand Halo 4’s intro, but Halo 5’s intro is just confusing. It makes almost no sense and shows Halsey doing something with Cortana and that’s it.
modest marsh
Anyway, if i were to propose a solution for the shield conundrum
You could say it wasn’t UNSC tech
Field-stripped Covenant overshields
jovial temple
Well halo 4’s intro threw me off mainly because they started talking about how the war started and showed a bunch of Spartans wearing master chiefs new armor
Like wut
And possibly maggruber
inner basin
That part isn’t canon with the Spartans wearing the Mk. VI mod, but the interrogation makes sense
modest marsh
I would say that cutscene introduces several questionable visual elements that would likely be ignored for the foreseeable future
stoic hamlet
343 confirmed that the flashback visuals aren’t canon
jovial temple
Good that saves me another headache lol
modest marsh
They were made by a third part studio
inner basin
Also Maggruber any salvaged Covie tech is to be handed in to the UNSC to study, so I can’t see that being the case.
stoic hamlet
Also that’s a great idea with the field stripped shields, until it’s confirmed otherwise that’s my head canon
Why not?
modest marsh
But experimental tech is more likely?
stoic hamlet
Spartans routinely used Covenant weapons then handed them into ONI after the battle
modest marsh
What if they were experimenting with integrating Covenant technology?
inner basin
Yeah if it was handed in, studied and applied to the Mk. IV suits, yes, but if that’s not what happens and instead they study it further, that can’t be it.
jovial temple
Whatever the case. Whatever they experimented on with omega team and red team later lead to the mark V that part is confirmed
It would be quite interesting if it was covenant tech
inner basin
Well we know that Mk. V energy shielding was reverse engineered from Jackal’s energy gauntlet shields
jovial temple
Well yeah. SPI is probably a step up
inner basin
The thing with the SPI armour is that is was most likely wide spread adoption in the Headhunter program (but that’s only 17 people).
jovial temple
Oh one thing to note is the prototype they tested would not become standard until the mark V
modest marsh
My concern there is I don’t see SPI supporting a MJOLNIR-grade power supply
stoic hamlet
It didn’t
IIRC the shielding was a massive power drain and the suit needed to use everything to power it, meaning they lost the Av-Cam, enhanced strength and heat dampeners.
I think
inner basin
It’s not confirmed to be just among the Headhunters as we only see Jonah and Roland having it but that’s because lore on the Headhunters is scarce and I would like a spin-off game to explore this but that’s besides the point at the moment.
stoic hamlet
I mean Gamma never got them to my knowledge
jovial temple
The headhunters seem pretty dope. wasn’t six a headhunter?
inner basin
That’s not confirmed or denied gegnar
jovial temple
Ah I knew it was one of them
stoic hamlet
As is Hazel
jovial temple
And well that’s interesting
inner basin
*was Eternal
inner basin
We do still know that there are Spartan-III headhunters post-war but we don’t know how many.
jovial temple
So many gaps in the lore
stoic hamlet
Gammas likely became the majority
jovial temple
We need more content
stoic hamlet
G-059 for example
inner basin
As well as originals who survived the war
stoic hamlet
She’s not expressly notes as being one, but she’s missing her team, and unless 4 Gammas died without us knowing I take it to mean the company was broken up
inner basin
Like if Hazel wasn’t reassigned she would still be a headhunter all the way from when Alpha graduated
stoic hamlet
Yep
jovial temple
Is black team still mia? Or are they currently stationed near a halo ring
stoic hamlet
.....
modest marsh
Lol
stoic hamlet
Should we tell him?
jovial temple
Oh god
inner basin
Nah, he’d be better off not knowing
jovial temple
No tell me I must know
inner basin
Trust me you don’t
modest marsh
They were slaughtered by the Didact
jovial temple
God dang it
stoic hamlet
Meanwhile Blue Team fares a lot better for some reason
modest marsh
Main characters
modest marsh
Look Kelly dodged his attack
stoic hamlet
Look John stabbed him in the eye
modest marsh
Linda shoots him in the back
The fight itself reeks of melodramatic schlock
We already know that the Didact can defeat them almost without trying
He even suggests as much
inner basin
Kinda like the Chief vs Locke fight
modest marsh
But that would make for a less dramatic comic
jovial temple
Chief wasn’t trying
modest marsh
👀
modest marsh
This can go on for ages
jovial temple
You can’t tell me a spartan 4 can out match a veteran spartan 2
inner basin
True which is why we should change subject, Maggruber
jovial temple
Yes
modest marsh
I’ve shared my thoughts on this matter numerous times, and I have yet to voice every aspect of it
inner basin
It’s just written poorly, which I think everyone can agree on. If it was even just more fast paced it would look better
modest marsh
I recommend searching the server history if you’re at all interested but I’m gonna avoid beating the subject like the dead horse it is
inner basin
I also think 343 have learnt the lesson.
inner basin
Who would like a Headhunter game? Just to bring the subject back a little to the discussion on Headhunters
jovial temple
I would honestly like another ODST game lol
tawny salmon
Well technically all the idsts are dead
Odst
In the books Mickey betrays them and kills like all of them
carmine sleet
Mickey didn't kill any of them
tawny salmon
Oh
carmine sleet
Rookie is the only one who died and he was killed by someone else entirely
jovial temple
Insurrectionist I think
stoic hamlet
RIP Rookie, he didn’t get to keep his promise ;-;
jovial temple
F
tawny salmon
What promise?
jovial temple
Also buck is not dead
And Romeo, buck, and Dutch become Spartans don’t they?
Or is it just buck
tawny salmon
Just buck
carmine sleet
All the squad became S-IVs apart from Dare, who is still a normal ONI agent
stoic hamlet
To Sergeant Gage Yevgenny.
Rookie found him when he was dying and, after listening to his life story, promised him he would fight until he no longer could, that he would ensure the Covenant wouldn’t destroy humanity.
Actually I guess he did keep that promise.
tawny salmon
Can someone tell me the entire military alphabet?
carmine sleet
Dutch and Gretchen became S-IVs years after Buck, Mikey and Romeo though
stoic hamlet
Idk if he would have tbh
carmine sleet
Aye, Rookie was dead though. Would've been offered a place by Jun if he lived I believe
stoic hamlet
Like Buck only became one when Jun offered the rest of the squad
And IIRC it was a pretty large debate for them
jovial temple
Buck should be teamed up with his squad then. Not Osiris ._.
inner basin
Yeah whereas Spartan Fireteams usually have Fireteam ... they are listed as Alpha-Nine, at least for now. Also Gretchen is Rookie’s replacement in a way (and Dutch’s Wife) so I hope she can stick it.
carmine sleet
The reason Buck was on Osiris was because the squad split up post the death of Rookie and Mickey betraying him and Romeo on a mission. The squad reunited because they needed a new team to go investigate a Forerunner structure that some Innies had been living in and around for years. Even then, Dutch and Gretchen weren't originally part of that operation but joined after Jun let them
That said, how I described it is a gross simplification of the events
jovial temple
I need to read this
carmine sleet
Go find yourself a copy of Halo Bad Blood, it's a good read
inner basin
It’s in Halo: Bad Blood
carmine sleet
Basically the same, some things are different due to the events of the previous novel focused on Buck (Which I also recommend reading as well)
inner basin
New Blood and Bad Blood are the books you should read for a FULL understanding. Read New Blood first if you plan to read both. The author for both books is the same (Matt Forbeck I think that’s his name) so they kinda go hand-in-hand.
midnight loom
pure parcel
@jovial temple @tawny salmon Dutch and Romeo were both Spartans because in bad blood it mentions them going through the Enhancement process. Im pretty sure it also says that in the book but its been awhile since ive read it.
modest marsh
We already knew about Romeo
inner basin
@pure parcel We knew Romeo became a Spartan-IV in Halo: New Blood as he got the augmentation procedure done at the same time as Buck and Mickey. We learn that Dutch and Gretchen became Spartan-IVs in Bad Blood if that’s what you meant
vague scroll
Bad Blood simply gives us the technically first URF Spartan in the form of Mickey
Well, I guess New Blood makes him that
I’m more thinking of it in terms of as an official liaison with the Unsc
In some way the URF is suddenly a legimate organization and unsteady ally of the UNSC
My has the galaxy changed
inner basin
No, that was New Blood that he defected. He only defected because he was upset at the death of the Rookie and had his emotions manipulated by another Spartan who was part of the URF. He did however switch back to help the UNSC in Bad Blood
vague scroll
He’s officially working for the URF by the end of the novel
inner basin
No he’s not. He was detained by Buck and the Rebels who were there were killed. He was in a cell in Bad Blood but he rejoined Alpha-Nine on a mission.
vague scroll
The trade off in the book for URF cooperation with the UNSC elements against the Created is that Mickey officially be free and work as a representative of the URF in the rebellion against the Created
I’m talking about the end of Bad Blood
inner basin
No he’s back as a member of Alpha Nine. He’s officially listed as part of the Fireteam.
vague scroll
Yes but he’s still a liaison with the URF from now on, that was the agreement that Dare made with the leader of the rebel outpost, Hole in the Wall
That he will be turned over to the URF when the war against the Created ends
inner basin
No they took Mickey with them due to his credibility with the URF but aren’t intending on him to be part of the Front. They only brought him so that the URF will reveal the Forerunner tech they went there for
It just doesn’t make sense for the URF, a resurgent Insurrectionist faction to have a Spartan of their own.
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Before they jump back on their pelican to get off Cassidy III, the leader, Governor Wells, said for the URF’s cooperation and allowing the UNSC to be able to study the Forerunner technology that hid the colony world from the Guardians, they wanted Mickey.
The likelihood that will come true is uncertain at this time but Mickey is pretty much a URF agent from now on, even if still a Spartan
And he wouldn’t be the first Insurrection group to court of receive Spartans or pseudo-Spartans
The URF tried to court the loyalty of Spartan washout Soren-066
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Not true. If I can’t convince you, read this https://www.halopedia.org/Michael_Crespo
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And the New Colonial Alliance turned Ilsa Zane in 2557, a pre-SPARTAN-IV
I’m a contributor to Halopedia, I know this stuff
And that page has been open on my Firefox browser since we started this discussion
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Yes but that was because Ilsa Zane was insane
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No, she was mentally unstable - she got turned because she was influenced by Admiral Drake
A UNSC Officer turncoat
And leader of the NCA
Excuse me, NCA
Insanity doesn’t decide someone’s allegiance, it just created the opportunity that led to her turn
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Okay so mentally unstable is the same as being insane. But Mickey is not part of the URF, he is part of Alpha-Nine, and he is fully reinstated as a member of the team. If he was part of the URF he would’ve been put back into prison, but Buck vouched for him
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Doesn’t mean he’s a proper member of the UNSC
The terms and conditions of his temporary bail is that until the Created conflict’s end, he’s allowed at least to roam free.
But the URF specifically asked for him as their price for URF cooperation with the UNSC
That’s in Forbeck’s book if you want to go read it
I read it last summer, I still remember this well
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Shortly after Buck's honeymoon, the reconstituted Alpha-Nine was sent on another classified mission, Mickey a full member of the team once more. With everything the squad had gone through, they were left a stronger team than ever. He clearly is not part of the URF. He wouldn’t be trusted as much if he was
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If it helps my case, the info box on his Halopedia page still lists him as an active member of the United rebel front
And formerly Spartan actually
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I understand your point and your perspective, but he isn’t part of the URF. He may have relations with them, if you want to call it that, but he ultimately is part of the UNSC, and back on their side. Granted he isn’t trusted on missions against the URF in case he is turned again and that info box needs to be updated, but maybe it hasn’t been changed as he could become a member of the URF in Matt Forbeck’s potential new book, if it is in the works. If nothing is released for a while we can assume that the info box of affiliations will be updated to say Spartan again.
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Well, Forbeck is not currently earmarked for a new novel in the Halo universe, I can confirm - rather we have the sequel to Silent Storm being penned by Denning as usual and the sequel for Battleborn, Meridian Divide, should be coming out later this year if I remember correctly
That said, I promise you what I’m saying is exactly as I remember it, if you want me to go get confirmation that, I can go ask the Halopedia Discord for confirmation again if you like
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Well Forbeck will probably write another. But it could be after Infinite given that the Infinity could play some part in the story
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I doubt it unless they plan to do a book sequel 2-3 years set after Bad Blood
It’s more likely to be a immediate continuation of Bad Blood if given the nature of how New Blood and Bad Blood were written
They played well off of each other
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I just feel that these loose ends need to be tied up. It’s possible Mickey could be part of the URF, but currently he is part of the UNSC, and he is treated well by other Spartans which could make him reconsider his option of turning to the URF (and by that I mean discourage the idea).
I feel it can be interpreted in different ways the lore we discuss it.
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Well, I guess that’s where we’ll have to differ. I’m a site moderator for the Halo Fanfiction wiki outside my work on Halopedia and I’ve been working with fan fiction writers that have taken to the idea of rogue Spartans, I guess I’m just a little more open to the idea of rebel-aligned Spartans because of that
But yeah, the nice thing about lore is that it’s not 100% cut and dry and can be interpreted in different ways
It can be considered difficult to understand or rationalized because of some of the dichotomies
For example the Reach, FoR split
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I like that about Spartan-III lore right now, and it’s open to people having the ability to write their own stories due to how scarce lore is on Spartan-IIIs
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But Halo as an expanded universe is strengthened by the plethora of different view points and stories it gives us, even if they can get convoluted at times
From my experience, SPARTAN-IIIs outside of Gamma is some of the more confusing lore to try to create stories around
Mostly due to difficulties with interpreting misunderstood terms like Hyper Lethal Vector or CAT-2
It’s difficult to find loop holes for the Nylund death traps like TORPEDO and PROMETHEUS
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Well we have Gauntlet, Red and Echo teams to work with, and alongside that we have the Headhunters and on top of that Cat 2 personnel (which Gauntlet, Red and Echo teams would also fall under).
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Right, it’s just the issues of where to draw the line that can lead to issues because a lot of people have different opinions or ideas about it
Like some people have argued whether CAT-2 means S-IIIs simply equipped with MJOLNIR, or if CAT-2 means S-IIIs equal to S-IIs, etc . Etc.
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This is where interpretation comes into play, and it could be both as we know all Cat 2 are equipped with Mjolnir and that the Spartan-IIIs equipped in Mjolnir were on par with the IIs.
abstract zealot
In my stories I have it where 8 candidates from Alpha Company were pulled from the company roster before Kurt and Ackerson were able to know about them by Rear Admiral Nech and Captain Gibson for a different approach of operations outside Headhunters.
Well. At least that’s what I changed since I’ve gotten feedback on it.
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Alpha company have had extensive Spartans pulled out whereas not as many have in the case of Beta. I feel with Beta you have more creative freedom.
There also was 9 Spartans of the company who never landed during Operation: Torpedo so they still could be alive and on top of that there is Spartan-B170 who could still be alive too.
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I’ve tended to play with Delta Company in a very convoluted manner to bring them back into being while still abiding by canon since their shut down is very cut and dry with the way they were so offhandedly mentioned and then written off in Ghosts of Onyx.
Mostly through a rogue faction in Beta-5 that went against Parangosky’s shut down order following Ackerson’s death.
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Although the company was disbanded they did have the candidates selected so that could be plausible
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Gamma is honestly the most liberal of the units in terms of interpretation since there are so many alive and active post war and having not been through any seriously terrible stuff since Ghosts of Onyx
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If not, some of the candidates could’ve joined the military and proved their worth and got accepted into the Spartan-IV program. For Delta Company that is.
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Huh, must of used a phrase I wasn’t supposed to
Last light Retribution
Well, it wasn’t the book names
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As for Gammas, I like to believe that some were folded into the Headhunter program like G059 (at least I think she was).
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Was going to mention the only iterations of Gamma Conpany elements we have seen
Yes, G059 is confirmed as a Headhunter
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There are a lot of them, I haven’t even read them all.
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We know that there are several Spartan-IIIs who are in the Headhunter program post war as the Spartan Branch and ONI retain a select list of Spartan-III and Spartan-IV operatives.
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@tawny salmon Fall of Reach is essentially the story telling how the S-II program formed, their training and first missions, and then the battle of Reach as told when the battle was only supposed to be a day long
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As for TFoR it was basically a blood bath for both UNSC and Covenant and had an unknown number of Spartans that were KIA
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Best to check the Halopedia page, they have a pretty good summarization there
tawny salmon
Like noble team
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Halo Reach and Halo Fall is Reach have a lot of things that don’t line up actually
tawny salmon
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Noble team is never mentioned in the book