In Halo 2, as well, the gravemind talks as if it knows how the flood was beaten back in the Forerunner-Flood War
#lore-and-universe
humble yacht
modest marsh
Using existing technology is just efficient
Like they don’t exactly get the opportunity to build their own factories
storm flume
Well in Halo 2 it kind of had 2401
versed helm
Pure forms probably gain in complexity in tandem with the power of associated keymind forms.
We've never seen a true galaxy threatening outbreak.
storm flume
Who should know everything about the Forerunner-flood war
versed helm
Just outbreaks that happened to threaten the galaxy.
humble yacht
doesn't mean 2401 would have told the gravemind about that history
versed helm
There's a lot of tricks they pulled against the Forerunners that we don't know.
And by we, I mean, 26th century humans.
humble yacht
I wouldn't be surprised if 2401 just clammed up entirely
all we saw was that the gravemind has gotten access to the Halo's teleportation grid; we don't know to what other degree the monitor had been hacked
it certainly wasn't on the Gravemind's side
versed helm
And besides, personally I think the Flood need a bit of a buff. I've never gotten the raw sense of dread from them that I feel like I should - they're twisted and startling, but they don't loom over you the way some other galaxy-ending video game threats do.
storm flume
It's easier for me to assume 2401 told it bits and pieces in whatever thousands of years he was held captive than to assume the Gravemind knows everything that previous graveminds knew
versed helm
So being able to technologically progress to some extent on their own - even in an unusual fashion we may not perceive as true technology - is an ability I think the Flood should have.
And in response to what you guys are currently saying, I think you're off-track.
humble yacht
I think relying on the tech of others further cements their role as a parasite
versed helm
What you're saying is certainly feasible but it's not really in the spirit of what we know.
They're already more than a parasite.
humble yacht
yeah but it still fits
versed helm
Like I said, they need a buff.
humble yacht
I don't think so
versed helm
In terms of how we see them function, specifically.
humble yacht
I actually preferred classic flood, before they were connected to the precursors
versed helm
We know what they can do, but it's hard to reconcile that with what we see they do.
Space zombies ain't gonna cut it.
humble yacht
For me, Greg Bear's reimagining of the Flood cheapened them
I liked it when the flood was just a misunderstood organism just following its biological imperative
it wasn't good or evil; it was just surviving
versed helm
Knowing more about anything cheapens it. Mystery is half the fun - Greg did a decent enough job of making the information that we actually got decently compelling.
humble yacht
now the Flood are categorically evil
everything the Flood does is basically a revenge trip
versed helm
See, I'm the opposite to you - I like to imagine big unknowable threats as some kind of eldritch evil motivated by things we can't understand.
And I can't do that either, because the mystery is gone.
humble yacht
there's still plenty of mystery surrounding the precursors
versed helm
I've never really cared about them, as an isolated concept.
Or the Forerunners for that matter either.
I care about how they relate to the 26th century environment.
humble yacht
yeah but now the Flood have been established as an undead, crazy, vengeful precursor remnant
so any mystery around the precursors applies to the Flood as well
humble yacht
i.e. whether they exist outside our dimensions, where the knowledge is stored, their full capabilities
versed helm
I mean, they could always allude to something more, drop in a bunch of conflicting evidence and let people go wild.
That'd be my strategy.
humble yacht
conflicting evidence tends to cause more problems than not
look at Cortana
we have different pieces of lore suggesting different things about what happened to her, and it still hasn't been explicitly explained how she survived and why she's bad
once a certain amount of info is disclosed, mystery becomes more annoying than intriguing
versed helm
I think we do have a perfectly viable set of explanations - how she's acting now is just the way she is, without the shackles afforded to her by being a servant to humanity.
versed helm
I mean they almost certainly were.
humble yacht
but once they were established as a separate species, if 343 had tried to keep modern humanity's connection to them shrouded in mystery, it would have been annoying
versed helm
True enough, I guess. My point stands, though - it can be a good strategy to never get to the point of giving everything away in the first place when dealing with large threats similar in nature to the Flood.
It's always best to let those who're inclined think, and those who aren't just have their fun.
The optimal case of affairs would, I guess, be a distinctive explanation and reveal that satisfies everyone. But I think writers tend to get scared to do that.
humble yacht
i'm not sure i 100% agree with that, but people will either think or not think anyway
versed helm
Or I mean, scared to try.
humble yacht
well that's because the reality is that satisfying everyone is simply impossible
versed helm
So you get either expected, sorta boring stuff or mystery stuff, and I think the latter's better.
I think it's at least possible to satisfy most of a group of people who're all drawn to one story, if you don't lose your footing.
humble yacht
it's definitely possible to reveal mysteries in unexpected, compelling ways
then its also possible to reveal them in contrived ways
but its still all relative to the person consuming the story
versed helm
Then maybe the important part is successfully identifying what strategy you should take.
In the specific case of the Flood, and Halo's history, I do feel a less is more approach would've benefitted the story up to this point, though I respect 343 for committing in the way they did.
But God knows what they're doing now.
dreamy tulip
Do you think well see shortsword or longswords?
versed helm
It's been a while since I've been this utterly unable to predict the direction Halo's going to go in.
In what context?
dreamy tulip
To fight the forerunners
versed helm
They're fairly commonplace - at least longswords are.
I can't imagine a reason why they wouldn't be involved in military operations going forwards in some capacity.
Not sure if we'll ever see them pop up in a game, though.
versed helm
Probably.
Presumably they have astoundingly good EW and detection-avoidance systems by modern standards.
Doesn't change the fact that they're huge 747-proportioned doritos.
dreamy tulip
I'm looking at way point and I thought huh if in the trailer in infinite was a design of a pelican could it be a kind of condor that was being used
humble yacht
But he says in the trailer "UNSC Pelican Echo 216"
if it was a Condor, he'd say Condor Echo 216
carmine sleet
It's likely it's just a Pelican that's just bigger than previous models we've seen. Plus. the Bungie-era Pelicans always had a bigger blood-tray and cockpit than the 343i design
obsidian thistle
Unless stuff changes its a Pelican.
carmine sleet
Indeed. Plus, every time we've seen Condor interiors (Which granted, is actually quite rare), they've been much larger than even Pelicans on the inside. Enough space to transport allot more gear and stuff
versed helm
Tbh I don't think the size difference is that noticeable.
obsidian thistle
That said the Pelican in the trailer does seem close (not exact) to my notes on previous pelicans.
versed helm
It's a little exaggerated over past incarnations because we spend most of the trailer seeing it compared to the pilot.
But Chief fills the hold right up when he's in there.
obsidian thistle
Thats exactly how I filled up my notes fast ;)
carmine sleet
By the way, here's a question that popped into my head, is there any reason as to why the Covenant manufactured Wraiths specifically for Honor Guards? Aren't they almost always next to the Prophet they guard, meaning that having their own Wraiths is a little pointless as that would take them away from their duties
versed helm
Honour guard clearly have some kind of distinct battlefield role in addition to being personal protectors.
That battlefield role probably relates to ensuring that battles in which prophets are a part are never lost - as in, they're just hardcore elite soldiers as well.
Probably used (when available) to secure objectives that are of particular interest to the hierarchs, for one.
And y'know, tanks aren't entirely useless when it comes to defending important individuals.
carmine sleet
Indeed, that is true, but surely it would be better for the guards to stay as close to their VIP as possible
versed helm
Their expertise could extend to defending positions which the prophets occupy instead of literally being meat shields for them.
carmine sleet
Staying close doesn't necessarily mean being a meat shield
But yeah, I could see them defending positions
versed helm
Nor does it mean being so close that tanks would never be useful xD
Just bantering now, I think we've resolved this.
carmine sleet
I wouldn't have called this banter at all
versed helm
I meant my final remark.
Man, this is a stilted exchange
Quick, uh, subject change - 343 better retcon the AR's 7.62 ammunition into a different, slimmer cartridge that fires 7.62 projectiles or I'm gonna be mildly disappointed.
It's the perfect way to explain weird magazines.
You could even make the classic 60 round mags work, kinda, by saying that they've got a neat triple-stack that works off some kind of mechanical feeding system. Obviously you'd still need it to be ~170mm tall and ~30mm wide, assuming a cartridge with a case width ~8mm at most, but it does mean that the neat little 60-round CE mags wouldn't be as ridiculous as they seem as long as you're willing to accept electronics playing a vital role in gun function.
I'm always droning on about this but I felt the need to re-iterate under the circumstances, especially seeing that absolutely lovely new AR in the Infinite trailer.
fair hazel
Pelican interiors are one of my favourite things
versed helm
I like Pelicans with 70mm autocannons.
fair hazel
Tart cart fun
fair hazel
Lian devereaux’s pelican
versed helm
I know
Was it named that because of Alpha nine's female component?
Was that the joke?
fair hazel
What?
versed helm
Like, because you've got Naomi
And uh, what's-her-name calling the shots (I genuinely forget)
And Lian herself
And "tart" is a word which has many convoluted meanings, half of them related to women
fair hazel
Kilo Five you mean?
versed helm
Obviously
fair hazel
Osman
versed helm
Serin Osman, Christ. How could I forget.
But anyway - it's an interesting name for a Pelican.
versed helm
I mean, that's one possibility.
fair hazel
Bogof. But one get one free
Id like to see what kilo five is up to
Imagine kilo five. And ace of spades renegades meeting . And maybe alpha nine
versed helm
Surely there'd be enough ODSTs in that room for Niko to get punched at least once
carmine sleet
I mean, Alpha Nine is now a team of Spartans so maybe not a good idea to get punched by them
fair hazel
Unless youre Halsey
versed helm
Maybe Halsey used to be a boxer
Didya think of that
Catherine "Titanium Jaw" Halsey
carmine sleet
I wouldn't be surprised if Halsey tried stitching a flash-cloned arm on at first but gave up after the third attempt
fair hazel
Is Haley going to get a biological arm. A mechanical one. A bio mechanical arm. No arm. Or a mechanically enhanced one?
versed helm
Tbh I think if she was, it'd most likely be a sciency arm.
fair hazel
Science arm fits in mechanically enhanced
versed helm
With sort of swiss army knife capability - y'know, little scanners and hardlight scalpels or whatever.
fair hazel
That would actually be cool
« One moment spartan. Let me get this shrapnel out of your Armour »
Then with a hard light scalpel cuts it out.
versed helm
Kinda anime-ish tho
carmine sleet
I would love to see that in a future Halo game
fair hazel
Just ground the arm enough
versed helm
Personally, I would like the lore to extend out and specify that most times UNSC personnel get reconstructed biological limbs which are cultivated and constructed over a protracted period.
fair hazel
Mjolnir scanning tech in arm?
versed helm
With cybernetic prosthetics being used when the process fails.
fair hazel
Or cheaper
versed helm
Kat and Ponder are the only notable examples of cybernetic limbs that comes straight to mind. And James, I think?
carmine sleet
One of the S-IVs in Hunters in the Dark had a cybernetic limb as well
fair hazel
I don’t remember James with
The ODST from bunt the truth I think. And the person from the advert
versed helm
James definitely got his arm blown off by a fuel rod projectile, though.
It was apparently replaced, but it's not stated in TFoR by what
Halopedia notes it could've been cloned or mechanical
Also, I think it'd be a little more heartening if Halo could extend the human lifespan a little more.
Give us a solid 120+ on average
Only seems reasonable, if they can replace organs - presumably they've got therapy of all kinds to reduce the stress of age.
You could probably keep soldiers in service well past modern retirement age.
carmine sleet
They can also cure cancer quite easily too
fair hazel
Extend télémèrss
humble yacht
what?
versed helm
They've probably just gotten really good a screening for it and conducting extremely effective surgery before it becomes an issue.
That's how you cure it, really.
versed helm
Y'know. Chock full of nanites and all that.
humble yacht
oh I see now, extending telomeres was a response to how they could extend lifespan
it would be a lackluster solution as telomere shortening is a natural cancer-prevention mechanism within a cell
so people would live longer but almost always die of cancer
has the average human lifespan during the 26th century been calculated?
fair hazel
but with curing cancer..
versed helm
Waypoint says 90 years average on the human page
80-90, to be precise.
Probably a decent average lifespan for a modern person who remains healthy into old age.
Still, not super emblematic of medical progress.
I'm talking, like, aging Marines getting bits of their bodies reconstructed and effectively renewed so they can prolong their service.
That kind of cool stuff.
It'd be a good incentive to enlist in the military - "we'll keep you capable of serving as long as you continue to serve."
Up to a point.
As I understand it it's pretty rare to find a modern infantry NCOs who're much over 30 in any Western military - obviously a different story for officers, but it'd be useful having individuals with 20, 30 years of combat experience continuing to use that experience up till their 70s, a-la Johnson.
Though Johnson's ORION stuff probably played a big part in his tenacity.
humble yacht
Well in the field of aging biology, it’s pretty accepted that even with advanced in tech and medicine, there is still a point at which increases in life expectancy for humans levels off
versed helm
Bruh I’m not cut out for this ima just whatch so interesting
humble yacht
Basically saying that it won’t increase forever; eventually we’ll hit the max life expectancy
So the idea that in 2552 we’re not pushing 200 years life expectancy as a species is pretty in line with what science tells us today
versed helm
Fair enough. But I do think there's lots of terminal maladies we have today that the people of the 26th century - at least Halo's 26th century - won't be worried about.
And when those problems are reduced, average lifespans should go up.
versed helm
And, assuming that biological reconstruction is somewhat downplayed as a victim of context, it also means that effective ages should go up too.
Injuries don't become game-enders anymore.
modest marsh
I mean, there is the fact Spartans are implied to have drastically longer lifespans because reasons
humble yacht
Yes for Spartans that is the case
versed helm
I mean, obvious reasons. All their body functions are optimized.
fossil eagle
But muh Geas
modest marsh
Exceptions in terms of what precisely? Because I don’t see how improved eyesight and lengthened bones benefits lifespan
versed helm
Don't they have a bunch of metabolic enhancements and such?
humble yacht
Spartans also get gene therapy, boosts to metabolism
versed helm
Reworking of various neurological functions
modest marsh
Sure
versed helm
The ever-nebulous gene therapy, aye
Though I personally just think that's to ensure other implants are accepted
modest marsh
Theoretically those components can strain the body just as much as help it
humble yacht
Pretty sure Spartans can run on much less food than normal people
Which would suggest a kind of natural caloric restriction
Which has been shown to boost lifespan in rats and mice
modest marsh
That’s always been a bit of preposterous notion in the context of super soldiers
No way do they consume the calories necessary to attain the physicality they have
versed helm
I mean, you don't know that xD
modest marsh
Even with perfect metabolic efficiency
versed helm
The UNSC's advancements are always deceptively utilitarian.
modest marsh
We don’t see master chief constantly eating protein bars
fossil eagle
concentrated nutrition paste
versed helm
They probably have ridiculously high-energy Spartan rations.
modest marsh
Yeah but
Their supply is limited
Specifically yes we know what you’re talking about exists
versed helm
I think you're making too much of a fuss about it - none of us are 26th century Spartan project nutritional scientists, and we don't have any insight into such a person's knowledge, so it's a non-issue really.
Halo doesn't have enough lore for these discussions xD
modest marsh
I don’t think for the continuous amount of exertion a given Spartan partakes in would they feasibly last long under realistic caloric values for the extended periods we see Spartans operate
humble yacht
Yes, I agree that it’s a bit odd that Spartans don’t seem to require more calories given their increased physicality
humble yacht
Caloric restriction in mice only works when the mice are living an otherwise normal life
It’s not like we work the mice harder with less calories
So that’s probably not the basis for their increased lifespan after all
versed helm
I mean, it'd all be a factor. Really it just comes down to resilience, though, doesn't it?
modest marsh
Well S-IVs also require regular maintenance, like a machine
versed helm
How long can a Spartan's components stand up to time.
The proposition we've been given by what lore we have is that they are, in fact, much more resilient than ours.
modest marsh
Which would imply they’d deteriorate naturally if they continued to exert themselves as they typically do
humble yacht
Their augmentations probably would outlive their natural lifespan
Titanium isn’t going anywhere over the course of a century or so
But bones would still degrade
versed helm
Muscular and cartilage stuff is probably the biggest issue.
fossil eagle
There's 500 years of medical science advancement between us and the Spartans. Numerous breakthrough discoveries in human biology have been made in Halo which we may have absolutely no understanding of yet.
modest marsh
Like magic green energy fields
modest marsh
Yeah I imagine it’s just like
Identifying the cancer super early
Making it really easy to treat
People still die of cancer in Halo
versed helm
Though y'know, sometimes it's really hard to know exactly where the tech in Halo is meant to stand. Like, sometimes I've got genuinely no idea how advanced a given group is meant to be.
Like humans and grav manipulation in Halo
The hell is the deal
modest marsh
The Covenant’s medical technology is also suspicious
versed helm
Like, could we please have some functional guidelines for what can and cannot be done with gravity?
Please 343?
humble yacht
Lol
versed helm
I swear to god, I thought they'd discuss it in Warfleet
humble yacht
I mean
Unless they’ve got theoretical physicists on the team, they probably just made up some of the uses for gravity because they sounded cool
versed helm
I mean, listen. I know sci-fi physics tech is a rabbithole
humble yacht
Who knows if they really thought hard about the science behind the tech
versed helm
Someone once thought about it so hard that they brought Mass Effect into existence
But I just want rules, man
What can and can't be done, and what bits of tech are used
Not necessarily the intricacies of the science
humble yacht
Well it behooves them to leave the tech side a little open ended so they can add abilities as necessary. Just a fact of fiction, really
humble yacht
A halo ring is kinda the ultimate macguffin
versed helm
I mean, it's all about context.
I don't mind mcguffins, but I do mind them when their capabilities aren't properly defined, especially relating to such a central part of this universe's technology.
As far as I can tell, grav-tech is typically used for three distinct things in Halo - inertial compensation, lift, and paragravity.
It seems possible to me that they may be three entirely distinct technologies, or at least inertial compensation may be different.
We know that inertial compensators do their thing - they range from quite small to enormous and tend to encapsulate one and only one vessel, suggesting that the interior of the field may be controlled by some sort of physical substance or system which is spread throughout a ship.
We know that paragravity is obviously a thing, and on human ships it has to do with "anti gravity units". Which doesn't make a lot of sense - you'd think they'd be called gravity control units or grav units or something. Not sure how the anti factors in. Maybe I need to re-read that bit from Contact Harvest and verify Halopedia's findings on the matter.
I wonder if the lift-assist found on UNSC pelicans and frigates and such has to do with GoO's anti-gravity plates.
Hm.
Maybe it's time for some re-reading.
Just to clear up what means what and what is related to what.
supple field
Hmm here is a few more dumb question.
- How many spartan 3rd and 2nd gen died on battle of reach.
- How many spartan is boarded the pillar of Autumn?
gilded mason
2. How many spartan is boarded the pillar of Autumn?
Just John and Linda, I believe.
fossil eagle
John and Linda were the only Spartans aboard the Autumn during Halo CE.
obsidian thistle
Well on paper a lot of Spartans died on Reach... if we take the Section 3 ARG as fully canon. A LOT of Spartans turned MIA protecting Raider-class Mjolnir armor information.
fossil eagle
Almost every other living Spartan-II was aboard the Autumn for Operation : RED FLAG but the Invasion of Reach made that plan fall apart.
Those Spartan-II's were instead deployed to the surface of Reach to defend orbital MAC energy generators on the ground.
supple field
🤔I see. No wonder. I was really confused about something I read about. A lot of 2nd gen was on PoA. But yet confused by how do they make it out there.
I believe there were 12 defending the gen? And 4 more dead before they can get to it
vague scroll
Technically even Linda died before she got on the PoA, her injuries pretty much established her as clinically dead while in cryo.
storm flume
22 were assigned to Red Team to defend the generators. Of them, only 3 are known to have survived Reach and the events thereafter before returning to Earth, being Will-043, Kelly-087, and Fred-104. Will died some time later on Onyx, making the current Blue Team the last known SPARTAN-IIs of the original 33 that survived augmentation. I hope that helps someone digest the status of the SPARTAN-IIs after Fall of Reach.
obsidian thistle
Actually there is being a new way coming soon on Halopedia that will help the number scenario a lot.
storm flume
Oh good
I spent a whole afternoon doing the research and math
It was so annoying lol
I presumed that any other Spartan-IIs still alive in the lore were brought back from cold storage and fixed up.
Although there is a lot of leeway left for more Spartans to have survived Reach
obsidian thistle
- Listing the Spartans seen augmented prior to 2526 (aka 2525) in a list. These are the ones who 100% survived augs.
- List any who are washouts. (cant deny them)
- Any who are only seen augmented post 2526 have the potential to be rehabilitated.
That weirdly puts the number of known successfully augmented SIIs in a lower number.
But it fixes the number by a lot.
storm flume
The one thing that still has me was that Halsey said there have been 3 KIAs and 1 discharge among the SIIs since Samuel, but John personally sees the deaths of 2, being Solomon-069 and Arthur-079, the body of Daisy-023, and the assumed KIA of Kurt-051, which means the KIA count should be 4, unless Halsey knew about Kurt's survival and he is the "discharged" one, but I'm pretty sure she wouldn't.
obsidian thistle
Early franchise weirdness that is. xD
Regardless we can deffo explain a lot of stuff away now with the 2526 rehab stuff.
I mean Halsey lied to the Spartans. Halseys Journal admits that.
storm flume
Arthur is the only one among those 4 that has never been mentioned between augmentation and the events of his death, so to reconcile, he would have to be one of those that got rehabilitated, but his condition kept secret from the rest except those that participated in WARM BLANKET
obsidian thistle
Or maybe Arthur didnt die but was recovered. Regardless thats a topic for another day lol
pseudo raven
quick I need an explanation of the entire lore
inner basin
^ Use Halopedia 😃
It’s generally more helpful and gives a lot of details while also somewhat keeping it brief. Your best bet is to read through there. Another reason is that we can’t remember everything on the lore so Halopedia is generally more accurate.
As for what I came here to ask is that without knowing the number of Spartan-IIIs deployed to Reach, how can we give an estimate of how many Spartans overall died during the defence of the planet? We know there at least 4 KIAs, and they are all from Noble Team (but I like to say 3 as I personally believe that 6 is alive in my personal lore which deviates from actual lore slightly but that’s another can of worms).
storm flume
Who's the second in Noble that got off Reach?
As far as I'm aware Jun was the only one that was active after Reach
waxen slate
Is Jerome-092 still alive? I forget
unique rune
@storm flume I guess you could consider Jorge?
Because he's the only one that could truly be said to be MIA, with the others all being confirmed as killed, though his survival is essentially impossible.
092 is still active, as far as we know, attached to the Spirit of Fire and taking part in the Second Ark Conflict against the Banished.
storm flume
Even if he was floating around in slipspace after, his suit would eventually run out of oxygen
So yeah I agree, there's no chance he survived
unique rune
given what we know about slipspace he'd have been killed by a number of things before running out of O2
inner basin
I meant 4 Spartan-IIIs @storm flume
inner basin
That was the point of my discussion after all, and yes Jorge was a II.
trail willow
Hey quick question how does the UNSC communicate through long distances in space do they just have like insta communication or something else?
I remember something like them sending like satellites with messages into slip space to other ships but I may be mistaken
inner basin
I’m pretty sure, but not certain, that they have long range communication equipment aboard their ships, and in the case of planets, they have communication relay outposts like the one that we go to on Reach, to learn that it’s too damaged to fix due to plasma.
trail willow
Ok
glass loom
have some lore I need help on
storm flume
Shoot
glass loom
I'm playing a game called space engineers and wanna build the infinity
but I wanna build it to the last detail
storm flume
The externals would be exhausting, but very possible to replicate.
Internals, you're gonna have some trouble with
Outside of like
Hangar bays and the bridge
Take some creative liberty, is my advice
glass loom
do you know what space engineers is?
glass loom
do you know where I can find some really good information on such
storm flume
This page has an extensive gallery
Unless you're talking about Space Engineers in which case, sorry, I haven't kept up to date with anything on it
glass loom
I meant on the ship
storm flume
Yeah that page is all-round a good source
glass loom
would you mind telling me some stuff you do know or have noticed on the infinity
storm flume
Oh, you're talking about the externals
glass loom
anything
storm flume
I don't think I can offer anything that the gallery on the Halopedia page can't
glass loom
and yes I could search it up as well; but, let's be honest here. the people who made halo don't go into much detail
storm flume
There's some pretty good shots in there I think
Oh wow I didn't even notice this one, but it's pretty good actualy
This might be handy for you
glass loom
I think halo fandom is slightly better
storm flume
To each their own
glass loom
yea I think it was
I might use that for outside then worry about the inside when ready
storm flume
👍
dreamy tulip
Have we seen a condor besides in halo wars 2?
storm flume
Probably most people haven't, seems it was very niche
dreamy tulip
343 why
storm flume
Because they were only introduced around the time of H5. I have a feeling they'll come up more than a few times in the future
Would be pretty cool to see them in Infinite but I won't count on them getting put in the FPSs
tidal junco
Why is master cheese in space in the halo 6 trailer?
gilded mason
For a prank.
tidal junco
Bro. He just got totally punked.
fossil eagle
Because this time, he jumped, and he hit something as stubborn as he is.
gilded mason
But for real why?
That trailer's all we got, so your guess is as good as any, maybe.
fossil eagle
My theory is that he collided with Zeta Halo after being fired out of the UNSC Infinity's MAC gun, causing the section of the ring impacted to explode.
tidal junco
Why would they shoot the master chief instead of any other kind of ordinance shell?
fossil eagle
Because they knew that Cortana wouldn't try to shoot him down before he hit the ring.
tidal junco
Huh.
last anchor
More likely he climbed into the MAC himself and had them fire him at it.
He was tired of waiting. He needed to get in there and brawl
versed helm
Decided to channel his inner Doomguy I guess
jovial temple
His new suit of amor presumably prevents ai takeovers
Which is to say is definitely possible in the previous suits
The spidr program
Specifically to watch out for Cortana
The pelican in the trailer has got to be linked to the spirit of fire. Im almost totally convinced
carmine sleet
I hope it is as well, would love to see them come into the FPS games
jovial temple
The old unsc patch and the old style pelican... it would definitely add up
I think it’s more likely for it to be a spirit of fire’s pelican than some newer model with an old design
warped nimbus
could be that the spirit of fire is what hit the ring
fair hazel
Old style pelican? it doesn't match any known interiors
Only forerunner AI, have been able to mess with spartan armour
jovial temple
It matches the older pelicans in halo 1 & 2, specially the cockpit. And it’s possible it’s an older model we haven’t seen yet
And if that’s the case then I don’t understand how Cortana was able to keep the didactic at bay at the end of halo 4
versed helm
Well it was different circumstances.
The incident ericky is referring to is from Last Light
Though I'm a little fuzzy on the details
jovial temple
Cortana has came into contact with the domain right? Cured her rampancy. It’s untelling what she’s capable of now
And she knows chief’s suits inside out from the previous games
storm flume
I don't see why a non-forerunner AI with near-limitless access to forerunner knowledge and technology can't do what a forerunner AI can
jovial temple
Also back to the pelican. The spirit of fire has upgraded their own tech despite being adrift from the unsc. So that pelican in the trailer could possibly be the explanation
With the older style and unfamiliar interior
Could be that it’s a bit upgraded
Although not like the newer models
It’s all speculation. I’m just trying to find the one theory that makes the most sense for now
And yes Whitepaw and even if Cortana couldn’t hack into spartan armor you know Halsey would be better safe than sorry
The theory that it’s an newer pelican with older design cockpit does not please me that much
And the older unsc patch just please fans? That doesn’t either
You can’t disregard lore for the fans ._.
In most cases atleast ahem reach ahem
Prof anders at the end of halo wars 2 seeing the guardian.... also supports that pelican is the spirit of fire’s
Atleast more likely
Than anything else I’ve heard
versed helm
The bay doesn't look different enough to constitute a real difference from typical UNSC production variations.
Maybe a little larger than usual, but from the perspective of Chief in the trailer it's not like it's enormous.
The little airlock bit is the most notable divergence.
versed helm
I don't buy that - the purpose all pelicans is, primarily, ferrying troops from place to place, regardless of whether or not those troops happen to be in space at either end of the journey.
It'd be too logistically challenging to have pelicans that specialize in one part of their job over another - or rather, too challenging to optimize the pelican for the job.
I could buy that it's a variant with certain upgrades that are useful in space situations, though.
jovial temple
Not always look at the condor
Or the assault pelican in halo 4
Not that they can’t ferry troops but it would make sense for others to have different primary roles
Another thing to note is that pilot was alone
His co pilot is dead or missing
His mission seemed to be different tho still unknown
It’s like the standard warthog with a machine gun
And a trooper warthog
It’s common amongst the unsc for different variants to have different roles
Another example is the mongoose and gungoose. Two different primary roles but they can essentially get from point a to point b
It’s something The Unsc hasn’t found logistically challenging before
I always like throwing the infinity into the mix as well when it comes to a discussion about their resources
They were able to build that a few years after a war that nearly drove them extinct
Now if you were talking about solely the spirit of fire then yes that would be indeed too logistically challenging but I don’t believe that for the rest and main branches of the UNSC
In fact if they were not focused primarily on the covenant for 25 years. The infinity or a ship near its size would prob have been built a lot sooner
You slap a gun on a vehicle/whatever and it’s primary role changes but not that it still couldn’t complete the tasks before that gun was placed on it
lament bloom
Typical human behavior is building thing as necessary or needed. If the covenant war hadn’t occurred it’s very likely that Spartans would have lived out their purpose against the rebellion to the UNSC and ships would’ve remained as they were. As we know there’s a lot of lore to halo, but reach fell resulting in the finding of the halo ring which kicked off a lot of what we know. Forerunner tech was the building block of the infinity, otherwise it may not have been built so soon in history.
Be careful to read into the pelican too closely. The design has changed a lot since the first halo game. If the pelican was associated it would have a insignia indicating it’s connection to the platoon or ship.
jovial temple
We never saw the outside of it so it’s still could have the spirit’s insignia somewhere but who knows
Humans may have discovered forerunner tech differently if the covenant war had not occurred
That’s interesting to think about though
There are so many locations that are right under their noses
Does anyone know how far the infinity can travel a day through slipspace?
The regular ships were 12 light years I believe
Like the autumn class carriers etc
The covenants are 912ly if I remember correctly
It began instruction in 2544
And it also was built just in case earth was taken as a last resort... which is interesting 🤔
The slipspace drive is entirely forerunner so I wonder
modest marsh
@jovial temple slipspace does not have a consistent speed
I mean it’s in the name
Slipstreams
It can take weeks to cover 10 lightyears but maybe a few days to cover 100
fossil eagle
The Mantle's Approach covered tens of thousands of lightyears in mere minutes. UNSC reverse engineered Forerunner technology is likely limited by human understanding of the technology and its associated physics, even with the assistance of the Huragok. All that we know is that it's significantly faster and more accurate than Covenant drives, even though their drives blew the now antiquated Shaw-Fujikawa Translight Engines of the UNSC out of the water in every way.
tardy zodiac
What's difference between Spartan II and Spartan IV
fossil eagle
Spartan IV's are volunteering adults who have proven their tenacity as soldiers in the UNSC. They're basically given a few drugs that make theor bones a bit stronger and their reaction time quicker.
Spartan II's were abducted at the age of six across human-controlled space. They were each screened for their genetics, as Halsey wanted the best of the best of the best of all mankind as Spartans, since each one would have unimaginable amounts of resources poured into them throughout their entire military career.
They received illegal augmentations and implants, which included replacing many of their bones with titanium, as well as many other unsafe modifications that would be refined (but somewhat castrated) in the Spartan IV program.
modest marsh
Uh, well not completely accurate
IVs receive way more than chemical alterations, Spartans don’t really get their bones “replaced” more so an armored grafting to their surface
stoic hamlet
modest marsh
Hmm
carmine sleet
Also, the S-IVs have to be checked up on regularly as well, to make sure their augmentations are fine, whereas S-IIs don't need this
modest marsh
@tardy zodiac to use car terms, Spartan-IIs are vintage muscle cars whereas Spartan-IVs are luxury hybrids
IVs have a lot of extraneous features unrelated to physical performance
jovial temple
If slipspace doesn’t have a consistent speed then how are we able to determine that cas class carries can travel 912.2 light years a day? 🤔
Maybe not consistent for human ships
carmine sleet
You mean slipspace, right?
jovial temple
Yeah, sorry :v
carmine sleet
Also, my guess is that 912.2 light years per day is likely an average
jovial temple
From my understanding it’s a different dimension right? Different from the plane of space
modest marsh
Sorry, where does that value come from?
jovial temple
Halo: ghosts of onyx
A covenant destroy travels from earth to onyx within a single day
So someone did the math based on the velocity, time and distance from sol to zeta doradus
modest marsh
Not even that
humble yacht
are there any records of one ship making the same jump multiple times and taking different amounts of time to reach the destination?
modest marsh
That’s not how it works
Slipspace has slipstreams
Like highways
Traveling linearly is rarely the fastest route
It’s a different dimension after all
If that applied to the Covenant universally, specifically the idea they could travel from the edge of human space to the inner colonies and earth within a day, the war would’ve been over in months
humble yacht
So you're asserting that no jump ever uses the same path within Slipspace?
inner basin
Probably colony ship trips would be a good way to get a measure that, but we don’t have much info on them
humble yacht
you're doing a terrible job explaining your point
jovial temple
I read into slipspace more it actually has 11 dimensions including the 4 we have in normal space time
humble yacht
sounds like string theory
modest marsh
I’m saying that just because you’re 11 lightyears away from your destination it does not mean all approaches in its radius are equally fast
One approach could be 1 day, another could be 1 month
Having navigation data on how to get where in a reasonable timeframe is crucial
Otherwise the galaxy becomes quite small
I don’t know how more illustrative the highway example could be
When you’re driving somewhere, rarely is going in a straight line ever the quickest
And what direction you’re coming from is also crucial
humble yacht
yes but using driving on a highway as an example, there is always one optimal route
that only changes due to traffic or construction
modest marsh
That isn’t a straight line so you can’t derive linear speed for slipspace travel
humble yacht
assuming the path is clear, you take the same route from home to work everyday, because it's the fastest
jovial temple
A covenant ai stole forerunner navigational data and that’s how it was able to jump within earths atmosphere. It’s atleast to say before that though the covenant’s are faster then humans BECAUSE of better navigational data
humble yacht
so if Slipstream is like a set of highways, that means entering Slipspace at point a to get to point b would mean you'd take the same stream every time
unless the streams change randomly
humble yacht
not really?
modest marsh
We’re talking about the speed of slipspace, I’m saying that’s impossible to derive
We can know how long it takes for a given journey
humble yacht
I was talking about the amount of time it takes a ship to get from one point in regular space to another using slipspace
you said that my jest statement about the covenant ships was not the full story
so I asked if there is an example of slipspace times changing for the same ship making the same trip multiple times
modest marsh
Chimera are you answering the question about how fast slipspace is or not?
I said no
That wasn’t even suggested
humble yacht
so then what was so bad about me saying covenant ships are faster?
humble yacht
you said "it's not even that"
modest marsh
That is a fact
humble yacht
sounds like a denouncement
jovial temple
In terms of speed forerunner ships are definitely the fastest.
modest marsh
I said that’s not even [the reason]
Covenant ships may be faster but their travel times are still limited by having accessible slipstream routes
Hence again, why they didn’t immediately conquer humanity
humble yacht
If a UNSC ship (not Infinity) and a Covenant ship leave the same trip from Earth to Onyx via slipspace, what about the covenant ship makes it get there first? the speed of travel or the path they take?
modest marsh
I think it was described by the efficiency of the portal they make
jovial temple
Both come into question
humble yacht
are Covenant ships faster because they navigate slipspace better, or do they actually move faster through the streams?
modest marsh
Well also, they do literally move faster linearly
But that relationship isn’t defined well
modest marsh
A car can be constantly traveling 100mph, if it has a bad route then it’ll take forever to get to its destination
The Cole Protocol is so crucial because of this fact
humble yacht
where do they detail the differences in slipspace tech between the covenant and humanity in the lore?
modest marsh
Cortana has some offhand comment about it in first strike I believe
humble yacht
seems to me this is a pretty important point of space travel in the halo universe not to define clearly
jovial temple
First strike is one source
inner basin
And it’s from Cortana. Not entirely accurate if you ask me
humble yacht
well yeah but now we're arguing about what "faster" means
modest marsh
She was the one controlling the vessel
humble yacht
Keyes said the autumn made a blind jump, and the covenant still beat them to Halo
modest marsh
“They’ve always been faster”
jovial temple
Even if the 912 Ly isn’t accurate for all slipspace travel we can still agree that the covenant is dramatically faster than the unsc not counting the infinity of course
modest marsh
Sure
humble yacht
yeah but how do you beat someone to a destination when you don't know where that destination is?
modest marsh
They knew
humble yacht
how did they know?
jovial temple
The infinity slipspace drive is forerunner so it’s definitely faster than the covenants. Forerunners estimate a day was in the 1,100 ly
humble yacht
the Autumn didn't know where it was going; blind jump suggests random coordinates
modest marsh
It wasn’t actually blind
humble yacht
well that's just confusing
inner basin
I think the Covenant predicted their destination as Cortana says at lightspeed my manuevering options were limited.
modest marsh
Cortana plugged in coordinates she had found that the Covenant did as well
humble yacht
smells like a retcon
modest marsh
Well
vivid dust
thanks Reach
modest marsh
It’s in both the Fall of Reach and Halo Reach
The game amends it further which makes it a bit sloppy but it’s still workable
humble yacht
But even if the jump wasn't actually blind, how did the covenant know the end point?
modest marsh
They had the coordinates too
humble yacht
its not like they had a spy on board
jovial temple
They were indeed there waiting for them
humble yacht
yes but how did they know the Autumn used thosecoordinates
a highway can take you to many places
modest marsh
They didn’t? It was coincidental
jovial temple
No they definitely did
humble yacht
that's silly if that's the case
modest marsh
The coordinates were discovered around the same time
jovial temple
It was no coincidence Thel was there waiting on them after glassing reach
That would indeed be just silly
humble yacht
also Cortana said "They were waiting for us on the far side of the ring"
that doesn't sound like coincedence
humble yacht
planet
vivid dust
I always thought this line was about Reach lmao
inner basin
No it is planet
humble yacht
no, pretty sure it was in reference to the gas giant near the ring
modest marsh
I must be misremembering, because we know they had the coordinates based on the mission prior to the Spartans congregating on Reach
humble yacht
besides, the fleet of particular justice was bombarding the planet, not waiting for the autumn
(at reach)
inner basin
But Thel followed with all the ships in his command
modest marsh
It could also be inferred the Covenant picked up on the fact they discovered Halo’s location
And tried to beat them there
humble yacht
that's a hell of a thing to just "pick up on"
humble yacht
yes, we get that
the question is, how did the covenant know that the Autumn was headed there
unless someone told them, that would mean they guessed
inner basin
I think the fleet was just trying to destroy the Autumn instead
Along with the rest of the fleet at Reach
humble yacht
it'd be one thing if the Fleet followed the autumn through slipspace, but they specifically say the covenant got to the ring first
vivid dust
maybe we need to back to Sigma Octanus IV?
humble yacht
even if they could, it still doesn't explain how they were waiting for them
you track someone based on where they are, not where they're going
inner basin
But that’s because a probe was attached to Keyes ship, level
vivid dust
aka the place where there was this artifact thing Cortana got the coordinates for the ring
humble yacht
if you follow someone on a highway, you have to stay behind them until the destination
jovial temple
Well to travel slipspace you have to input the destination coordinates first
They knew where it was going
humble yacht
if you pass them or take a different route, you're playing guess work about where they will end up
jovial temple
If that’s the case
I wouldn’t compare slipspace to highways that’s a poor analogy
But I get where the comparison comes from
inner basin
There a lot of things we still don’t know about slipspace, if I was to quote Halsey from Halo 4 Spartan Ops
humble yacht
if the Autumn and the Covenant input the same coordinates randomly out of pure coincidence, that is bad storytelling for me
vivid dust
I thought maybe the Covenant had a shot at deciphering the ring's coordinates back on Sigma Octanus IV, but apparently they didn't have time to do so
so I guess it just doesn't make sense
jovial temple
Chimera I don’t believe that to be the case, if it was I’d be severely disappointed as well
The only explanation I see is that they knew the coordinates
And got there first
humble yacht
yes, he followed
jovial temple
So back to the question, how did they know?
humble yacht
so if you're following someone, how do you end up where they're going before them?
vivid dust
well unless you know where they're going, you don't
humble yacht
to get there first, at some point you have to stop following
humble yacht
you either pass them or take a faster route to cut them off
but that requires knowledge of the destination point
jovial temple
Which has to be inputed first thing when it comes to jumps even if it’s random yes
humble yacht
so it was either a lucky guess, a spy, or maybe inferred mid-jump
but if the Covenant had only just recently discovered the coordinates for Alpha Halo, then that would also suggest they'd never made the trip before
so there shouldn't be context clues during the jump that would make anyone think "oh, they must be headed to this place"
inner basin
Could they have calculated their route and then made it there before they did? To rehash a point said earlier, Cortana said at lightspeed my manuevering options were limited.
vivid dust
honestly I just think the purpose of this line is to make the Covenant look far superior than humanity
jovial temple
Well they were it’s established already that they’re slipspace travel is far faster than humans
vivid dust
kind of falls in line with the "let's make it cool before anything" Bungie did
modest marsh
The Covenant supposedly discovered Halo’s location at the same time the humans did at Sigma Octanus IV in the original novel
jovial temple
So if they knew where the autumn went by somehow being able to track ships then it’s definitely plausible they got their first
vivid dust
Well apparently they didn't have time to according to Halopedia
humble yacht
but did they know that humanity also discovered the coordinates?
modest marsh
Because it was from the same source
Blue Team killed the Hunters who were transmitting the data as they found it
modest marsh
Reach somewhat convoluted matters however
humble yacht
ok so its safe to assume the covenant believed humanity got the same data they did
it's still a pretty wild guess to just assume they're going to those new coordinates when fleeing Reach
modest marsh
Because the game heavily implies that Halo’s location was on Reach too
jovial temple
It couldn’t have been a guess
Are there any instances of the covenant tracking other ships through slipspace?
That we know of
modest marsh
The Covenant discovered Reach’s location by placing a probe on one of the ships who were at Sigma Octanus
humble yacht
Even if tracking were possible (not saying it isn't), it would still require that you remain behind the thing you're tracking
jovial temple
Not entirely
Again the coordinates have to inputed first thing
When it comes to slipspace
humble yacht
yes but they didn't have access that we know of to know what coordinates the Autumn put in
inner basin
They tracked Keyes’ ship from Sigma Octanus IV to Reach, but that was by attaching a probe to the ship.
jovial temple
Oh I see then that probe must be able to pinpoint the coordinates as well
Otherwise it wouldn’t make much sense
humble yacht
if that's the case then it should have been spelled out
that's a pretty big thing to leave up in the air
do covenant probes have the ability to hack like that? If so how did Cortana not notice an intrusion?
it's not like the Autumn was broadcasting where it was going
the information was strictly within the Autumn's systems
humble yacht
welp
jovial temple
Hmm...
inner basin
It still was Keyes’s ship that left Sigma Octanus IV. I couldn’t remember the name so I called it Keyes’ ship.
jovial temple
So it’s safe to assume they attached one to the autumn as it was leaving?
humble yacht
i don't think so
inner basin
I don’t think so as the Covenant had a special ship to attach probes, and I’m pretty sure Keyes would’ve spotted it before they entered slipspace
jovial temple
Then it goes back to the question. How did they track it and know it’s destination?
We need the fbi ._.
humble yacht
I mean, I could understand that the covenant could have shot a probe onto the Autumn unnoticed since the Autumn was scrambling to get away
but that's something that should be explicitly stated
Also that's not something Thel would leave out during his trial
jovial temple
Unless it’s just expected for the covenant to out maneuver human ships in slipspace to the point they can calculate the jump’s destination
humble yacht
that's an unrealistic expectation to me
I know Cortana said that her maneuvering options were limited, but the Covenant hadn't been to Halo yet either
jovial temple
Perhaps the covenant were aware of this limitation as well. Don’t forget they have an ai also. It could have foreseen their destination however I don’t want to go with the theory it was a lucky guess but
humble yacht
Covenant have disdain for their AI
they don't give them much in terms of decision making
inner basin
Well there is a good reason for that
jovial temple
True
humble yacht
so rereading the opening conversation between Cortana and Keyes in CE, it's really confusing
jovial temple
Maybe it has something to do with opening a slipspace portal
humble yacht
because it doesn't reconcile how the covenant tracked them and beat them to Halo
jovial temple
That the covenant uses to calculate navigational data and their destination
humble yacht
the covenant did detect the Autumn exiting slipspace
jovial temple
Because it is on record that rarely any unsc ships survive any encounter with the covenant
humble yacht
but that would only be an issue when following them through slipspace to know where they let out
jovial temple
Hmm
humble yacht
and would require that the covenant came out after
Cortana says "No one could have missed the hole we tore in subspace"
then says "they were waiting for us on the far side of the planet"
that sounds like the Covenant were just hoping that the Autumn would end up there
unless Halo was the only possible destination that the Autumn's slipspace jump could have let them out at, I don't see how the Covenant figured out to wait there
jovial temple
This is indeed giving me a headache I wish there were more data or instances on the covenant tracking unsc ships since all we really know is the unsc ships never come back
humble yacht
but if that's the case, that's very limiting for how slipspace works
like, going back to the highway analogy, there are many exit ramps along any one highway
it's not like a highway has only one entry point and exit point
if you're following someone on a highway and guess they're getting off at exit 1, and then they skip exit 1 and get off at exit 2, you just screwed yourself
jovial temple
And there’s also a fast line so here’s another suggestion. Maybe they followed them until the last destination was realized and just skipped around them
But it’s like you said
What if they skipped that exit
🤔
humble yacht
i thought John was supposed to be lucky
jovial temple
Then would have the covenant missed their chance?
And the events in halo CE never take place?
modest marsh
Well, i think once you open the portal, your vector has already been decided
See Halo 2
jovial temple
That’s the theory I was most going with ^
Once they seen the portal they knew
Through calculations or something of the sort
modest marsh
In Amber Clad was massively slower but they still arrived at the same location
Having witnessed Autumn’s escape, they probably couldn’t derive its precise destination, but based on them knowing that someone on Reach had Halo’s coordinates, they made an educated guess
humble yacht
but they piggybacked on Regret's path
modest marsh
Yes I’m aware
humble yacht
did Thel piggyback on the Autumn's path?
jovial temple
But it also goes back the the question why haven’t other unsc ships escaped the covenants grasp if they can just make the “jump” away?
modest marsh
I’m saying the initial portal is what decides the arrival point
humble yacht
seems to me that it's much harder to have an entire fleet right on your tail than one small ship
humble yacht
ok, sure, but did the entire Fleet of Particular Justice go through the same portal as the Autumn, or did they make their own
jovial temple
There’s not many record of this happening.
humble yacht
if they only saw the autumn make a portal, that's pretty meaningless
jovial temple
They most likely made their own
modest marsh
They made their own as far as we know
humble yacht
because seeing a portal open doesn't mean anything about where the portal could lead
modest marsh
You don’t know that
jovial temple
By “seeing it” I am referring to using their tech on it
humble yacht
esp if slipspace is a non linear path from point a to point b
modest marsh
It’s not but as I said the portal basically decides where they leave
humble yacht
yeah sure, but that provides zero context as to where they're going
jovial temple
Is it safe to assume that if you jump into slipspace with no coordinates, you may never exit?
humble yacht
you could enter slipspace at the same point in real space as another ship and still exit at a different point in real space
seems to me once you're in slipspace, exiting is again dependent on making portal
jovial temple
Well we do know the covenants navigational are almost at pinpoint accuracy so there’s that to take into account as well
modest marsh
Then how did In Amber Clad know when to exit slipspace
humble yacht
2 possibilities:
jovial temple
They were in the same stream the portal created from the cas class carrier
It already had its destination decided
humble yacht
- In Amber Clad was right alongside Regret for the entire trip
modest marsh
Yes but I’m speaking rhetorically to chimera’s point
Impossible
They were there long enough to set up base
humble yacht
- In Amber Clad detected where in slipspace Regret exited after the fact and just used the same exit point
going back to the "no one could have missed the hole we tore in subspace" line
i guess a third option is that since they went through the same portal, they were destined to exit at the same point, just later
like how the Ark portal always let's out at the Ark
maybe Regret's portal always would have let out at Installation 05
but the Amber only just managed to slip into that portal before it closed
jovial temple
Or once the portal was opened the covenant know how to recreate the same exact portal which I think we can agree already has its destination decided
humble yacht
I don't see an entire Fleet slipping into the same portal after the Autumn
I also don't see Thel being able to open the same portal after the Autumn's had already closed
not without additional info about where the autumn was going ahead of time
modest marsh
You’re ignoring the possibility slipspace portals let off detectable signatures that may clue in where someone’s headed
humble yacht
It’s less me leaving that out and more that I don’t buy that possibility
jovial temple
Because remember the cole protocol? Why is it that all unsc can’t jump to earth?
modest marsh
They may have made an educated guess based on the fact they both recently found coordinates
humble yacht
I considered that but it’s a pretty big oversight on the UNSC’s end
modest marsh
Whose?
humble yacht
ESP if they were surprised at the covenant beating them to halo
jovial temple
They weren’t surprised
jovial temple
Yea but why is it such a big deal that the unsc ships can’t slipstream back to earth?
Unless the covenant can precisely track jumps
The unsc wouldn’t have made such a big deal about it unless they knew this right?
humble yacht
If that’s the case then there is no point using slipspace at all
modest marsh
Huh?
jovial temple
Which is why I say not many unsc ships escape the covenants grasp
storm flume
Cortana said that the vector complies with the Cole Protocol
humble yacht
If the UNSC knows that the covenant can track jumps, then why jump at all?
jovial temple
There’s a reason for that
modest marsh
And if the Covenant followed you, jump again
humble yacht
Even if a jump is blind, it’s only blind in the sense that you don’t know exactly where you’re going
modest marsh
If they didn’t you’re fine
humble yacht
It’s still a jump, still traceable, as we’ve seen
jovial temple
But there’s no case of this on record
Almost all unsc ships are destroyed
None escape the covenant
Hardly atleast
humble yacht
They should have jumped again after reaching halo
storm flume
Also keep in mind that during a retreat, it's probably expected that there are dozens of UNSC ships all going in different directions
Maybe it's not easy for the Covenant to track all of them
jovial temple
Well also keep in mind the covenant fleets are much bigger
humble yacht
When running from a bear, you don’t have to be faster than the bear, only faster than your friends
jovial temple
It is in reason to suggest they just send out more ships to each destination
But I think we would hear about that bear story a lot if it happened
modest marsh
Jumping into slipspace immediately isn’t an option
The capacitors need to time to charge, and the Autumn had already sustained damage
humble yacht
This all makes the cole protocol sound very ineffective as a defense against the covenant
humble yacht
Oh wait
The protocol isn’t meant to get away from the covenant
It’s just meant to keep the covenant away from earth
modest marsh
The Covenant can’t chase every ship, nor does every portal necessarily telegraph precisely where they’re going
It’s meant to preserve the secrecy of navigation data, more broadly speaking
modest marsh
Why?
humble yacht
Some portals are trackable but others aren’t?
jovial temple
I do believe the covenant can chase every ship
humble yacht
It’s cherry picking
modest marsh
You’re going to assume the Covenant has ideal means of detecting anything in space every time?
humble yacht
If they’re right behind a UNSC ship like they were with the autumn, yes
Otherwise it was only for the sake of the plot that the covenant tracked the autumn to halo
modest marsh
Again, it is heavily implied the Covenant knew they might be going to Halo ahead of time
humble yacht
That’s even more “for the plot”
modest marsh
Their most sacred artifact, one ship happens to leave
An abnormally strong one for that matter
humble yacht
But I thought that at point in time, the covenant had not yet been to halo
jovial temple
Keyes is just that good at maneuvering
storm flume
They hadn't but they might've gotten enough of the nav data from the Forerunner artifact before Blue Team took it, couldn't they?
jovial temple
Yes but we’re trying to figure out how they tracked the autumn to it
humble yacht
Sure but what was it about that data that Thel would have been like “hm, I bet they’re going here as soon as they can”
jovial temple
And got there before they did
humble yacht
And consider that they didn’t go straight to halo after getting the data
jovial temple
Unless it’s just implied the covenant has tech to track slipspace somewhere
Which I can understand that’s where the cole protocol came from
If that’s the case
humble yacht
If that’s the case then every UNSC ship that ever runs from the covenant using slipspace is doomed
humble yacht
If that’s the case then the UNSC would never use retreat as a tactic
Because it would be a death sentence
jovial temple
Another line from CE was Keyes saying something along of “they did they follow us?” And Cortana said “you already know the answer to that”
So yes basically
humble yacht
You’re thinking of the first two lines
Keyes “Cortana, all I need to know is did we lose them?”
Cortana “i think we both know the answer to that.”
jovial temple
Yeah that
storm flume
"We made a blind jump, how did they..?" "Get here first?"
So maybe blind jumps are the key
humble yacht
Million dollar question
jovial temple
And doesn’t blind jumps break the cole protocol?
As it could potentially lead to earth
humble yacht
Well as long as you don’t set a path to earth, blind could be literally anywhere else
I think they’re recognize a path to earth and be like “not that one”
humble yacht
Also Keyes still had the protocol in mind as he mentioned it when giving Cortana to Chief
“Capture or destruction of a shipboard AI is unacceptable”
Which, ironically, destruction should be acceptable when keeping earth a secret
storm flume
Destruction would be a last ditch effort for smart AI I assume
Which is why he can say it's "unacceptable"
humble yacht
Yeah but Keyes did not give Chief that option
And chief made it a very major point in the games to protect her
jovial temple
Until he left her on high charity
humble yacht
Though he was too willing to let her stay on high charity
humble yacht
That part was a bit out of character
jovial temple
Leaving her on high charity also violates the cole protocol?
humble yacht
I think so
humble yacht
And then when Johnson asked where she was and Chief was like “she stayed behind”, Johnson took that in stride
Despite it being a major breach
I would have been like “you did what?! Is that how the covenant found earth?!”
storm flume
Technically the Cole Protocol only applies to the Covenant, but yeah it was extremely dangerous to leave her with the Gravemind
jovial temple
Well his respect is found throughout the unsc so they tend to trust his decisions
Except del rio
But everyone else does
humble yacht
He left her on the covenant capital city
jovial temple
Even if it breaks code
humble yacht
For all intents and purposes, he left her with the covenant
jovial temple
True, at the time, it was untelling if the flood outbreak would be contained
Thought most likely naught
And would the gravemind actually have learned anything from her? She seemed to have keep her mouth shut the whole time
storm flume
He didn't have to have her say it, he was trying to integrate her into his consciousness I think
It would have just been more convenient to him
He did find out about the Index towards the end of the level Cortana
jovial temple
Hmm I see. That goes to the neuroscience behind the flood
Which implies they exist in other dimensions or atleast have contact with some dimensional creature outside the plain of normal space time
And originating from a precursor itself would explain that
modest marsh
@humble yacht Cortana was capable of fulfilling Cole Protocol on her own without Master Chief’s assistance
Her reason for staying was to keep a hand on the Amber Clad’s trigger, remember?
vivid dust
why did that not happen again?
modest marsh
The Gravemind took control before she could
Mind you, the Covenant already knew where Earth was for, what, weeks now?
jovial temple
Truth knew before the other prophets but kept it a secret
Regret shot head first without knowing anything
modest marsh
Royal Covenant
storm flume
He seemed to let Mercy in on it before they were going to the Dreadnought
At least he made Mercy aware that that was where he was going
jovial temple
Was that after regret was killed or before?
jovial temple
Ohhh I remember now yup. The flood was like “let’s team up though ima still eat ya later”
Then mercy died on high charity lol
After truth told him
“The great journey waits for no one, not even you”
humble yacht
I remember but he still barely resisted her staying behind
modest marsh
Because it was a sensible plan?
Cortana’s only resistance was the construct aboard the Forerunner keyship
modest marsh
Aside from that, what would have led her to believe she was potentially susceptible to being overtaken by the Flood?
I mean obviously that’s Cortana’s own hubris
humble yacht
Less being capture by flood and more being captured by covenant
At the time he left her in the system, Chief had only seen one infection form
modest marsh
What’s the Covenant going to do to her?
humble yacht
But then, maybe since the covenant had already found earth, the cole protocol wasn’t exactly all that important anymore
modest marsh
Well yeah
jovial temple
True
modest marsh
But like
jovial temple
But if the flood captured her then that jeopardizes earth as well
modest marsh
I don’t think the Covenant could’ve posed a substantial threat to her anyway, especially amidst the chaos of the schism
jovial temple
Unless the flood already knew also
modest marsh
The Flood would’ve already known
humble yacht
We as players may be able to accept that Cortana could resist ant interrogation by the covenant
But it’s unrealistic to think that any one on the UNSC aside from maybe Halsey would be willing to risk that
At least before earth was discovered
modest marsh
Chief would’ve had informed experience on her capabilities by that point
And I’m not like
humble yacht
But not informed on covenant capabilities
modest marsh
Really sure what you propose the Covenant would do
humble yacht
What did the UNSC know about what the covenant could do with AI?
jovial temple
Strip them for data
humble yacht
Obviously they assumed that they had some degree of being able to get info out of AI
Otherwise that clause in the protocol wouldn’t have been there
modest marsh
Everything we know about Cortana/the Covenant’s relationship in the games is that she very easily, almost without effort cracks all of their security functions within seconds
Her whole thing is being indomitable in this capacity
humble yacht
Yes but again, we as the player are willing to accept that because of the view we have over the events
modest marsh
So like
Why do we as the player have reason to question that concern
Cortana just beats them like she always does
humble yacht
It’s unrealistic to think that even Chief would just be like “ok you are obviously gonna be ok here so I’ll pick you up later, have fun”
jovial temple
“Don’t party too hard”
humble yacht
Because Chief being a character in the universe is not an omniscient as we are as players
modest marsh
If she wasn’t okay In Amber Clad would’ve gone super nova
humble yacht
Chief doesn’t think like a player playing the game
modest marsh
That was their plan
humble yacht
He thinks like a soldier in the thick of it who is careful and won’t make assumptions because the entire galaxy is at risk
jovial temple
That’s why he stayed on requiem to chase the didact
And refusing orders to leave with infinity
humble yacht
Yes but again, leaving cortana behind also broke protocol and not to mention broke keyes’s last request to Chief
Consider what Cortana meant to Chief and how important she was, I would have expected a couple more words of resistance to leaving her behind
modest marsh
Cortana could’ve just willfully disregarded Chief’s order to return to his armor
jovial temple
It was pretty much like “lol ok bye, see ya”