That be official.
#lore-and-universe
versed helm
my god
obsidian thistle
Yapyap the character is canon however. Just to be clear.
versed helm
there's a twitter
modest marsh
@stoic hamlet Chief didn’t fall 2km, that was a guesstimate a marine made with seemingly no information besides eyeballing
Also it’s less the height and more the speed at which he hit the ground
He would’ve been decelerating from hypersonic velocities, likely hit the ground at transonic and then bounced a few meters away
versed helm
That said, that Marine - after operating around trans-orbital craft his entire career and likely being involved in the entire recovery operation, including the observation of the keyship itself prior to Chief's ejection - probably knew what he was talking about.
He seemed very confident in his words.
versed helm
Speaking of being confident, I have a super-nerdy theory about something that might work. Though if you're a gun-nut and happen by, I'd like you to tell me if what I'm saying is nonsense.
I think I've found a way to explain the MA5's operation. I'm in no way a gun expert - I've barely even shot one in my life, actually. But I've been educating myself recently on how firearm mechanisms work and I'm pretty sure I've found a not particularly realistic but possible explanation for it.
The problem with the MA5 is that the magazine is just so far back on the weapon, meaning that its primary operative components – the bolt carrier group – would have an impossibly small amount of room to work. As far as I can tell, this means two things. First off, you couldn't fit in a sufficient-length recoil spring in MA5, which is a vital portion of a firearm's operation and pushes the bolt forwards to chamber and fire a round and second after it gets cycled. Second, conventional bolts may be too large to fit in the space allocated at all - to accommodate the hammer/firing pin mechanism seems to be the primary reason, and the secondary reason is because the bolt is engaged in the typically large and bulky bolt carrier, which is its means of movement throughout the weapon.
This bolt design of the MA5 would be "telescopic", in the same way an uzi's is, which means - I'm fairly sure - that the barrel (and more specifically, the firing chamber) is encapsulated by the bolt carrier when in-battery. That alone would help with some space concerns, but overall you would need a shorter bolt than you see on modern firearms even given that. I think it'd probably work - I'm trying to wrap my head around how you might re-engineer a hammer to function from in front of the magazine, with the round having been displaced well forwards by the bolt. If that doesn't work, the alternative seems to be replacing the conventional firing pin with a hammerless electronic contact similar in nature to the Remington EtronX. Just a little fixed electrode instead of a moving firing pin which sends a pulsed zap through to the round in response to a trigger pull.
Instead of a recoil spring, however, the weapon would utilize a simple robust high-strength electromagnetic pushing plate to bring the bolt back into battery after the gas system cycles it back after firing, eliminating the need for a spring system of sufficient length. The firing chamber is also positioned more or less directly above (though slightly forward) of the magazine well, so the bolt doesn't need to move as far to chamber a round.
The electromagnetic system would draw power from a long-life battery somewhere in the weapon, and the system's linked to the safety - if it has an electronic firing pin, that'd work the same way. If the weapon's safe, the magnet's dormant, and if the weapon's not safe, it's ready to go. Or, if you wanted to be really clever, you could say that it's got a system that draws power from the friction and energy created by the firing itself for each burst of bolt-pushing, somehow.
terse gale
I'm more of a handgun guy myself, I used to go plinking with my uncle's old .22 bolt action but that's the depths of my rifle experience
last anchor
Heh. Someone hire Grim to do stuff for 343 in the reality department
versed helm
Judging by 343's design principles, I'm guessing that the actual answer is somewhere in the lore bible. They're far smarter dudes than I - they're just, as the Warfleet team tells us, very particular when it comes to disseminating deep lore.
The real question is, why would the UNSC want a standard-issue 7.62x51mm rifle with a barrel that could easily exceed 70cm? It is, after all, a bullpup with the length of an M16, or near it, using a unique mechanism to fire from a mag that is inserted near the butt of the weapon.
The only answer I can think of is that, for whatever reason, larger calibre is always better against 26th century body armour, so a smaller round with a sort of penetrator rod may be inefficient.
And the longer barrel in some way facilitates the ammunition that is used - I know that a longer barrel almost universally means a higher muzzle velocity because the gas is concentrated longer behind the bullet in the barrel, though it also seems to be prone to drop-off if the barrel is too long and this seems potentially excessive if that's what they were going for, and there would be alternate and far more compact solutions. Anything can be rationalized though, I suppose.
stoic peak
I always wanted to see what the Sea Based Navy looks like in Halo, i think it would be cool to see Battle Ships on the sea and the role they played during some battles, such as Earth and maybe Reach and so on, for some reason its always intrested me.
Also a Water Based Level in Halo would be cool, where the Covenant are trying to find a Forerunner relic under the sea and you are on a Massive Navy Battle Ship on the water and the Sea Based Navy is trying to stop them.
I say "Sea Based Navy" because i dunno what to call them when the Navy is also is space hahah
versed helm
honestly, aquatic navy isnt probably used that much given most factions occupy planets
and since frigates and such can patrol in-atmosphere perfectly fine covering both land and oceans
but that's speculation, obviously
i dont actually recall a time i've ever seen a boat represented in halo media
stoic peak
@versed helm Yeah thats true but i mean it would probably still be more practical to have a sea Bases navy that is always moving around and can probably have troops on the ground faster ?.
I mean the Earth is like 70% Water
versed helm
and 100% UNSC
i could see an aquatic navy being somewhere more like Reach
where there's an insurrectionist front
stoic peak
Ahhh yeah true. I mean imagine having Banshees and other Covenant Vehicles flying across the sky over the water and massive Boats shooting them down
safe siren
@versed helm There is an aircraft carrier near Mombasa https://www.halopedia.org/File:UNSCAircraftCarrier.png
versed helm
that's mostly dealing with aerial combat though, as Longswords
safe siren
still a ship tho, we know that the 'wet navy' has bases on Earth and Reach
versed helm
when mendonca was talking aquatic navy, it was in references to battleships, destroyers, and cruisers.
though that does clear up me not seeing a boat at least
but im reading up on it.
still, not much known
safe siren
Probably they have other type of ship too, it wouldn't be strange since you can't use spaceship to control the seas
I would like to know if there are still act of piracy in the seas
versed helm
Most likely just big seaborne drones.
That carry smaller drones - like the F99 Wombats.
ashen wharf
For halo ce is classic or remastered cannon 🤔
Just joined this server so many questions.
This server is like a database of all halo knowledge.
ebon wharf
@ashen wharf i mean its the same game just the graphics have been buffed
ashen wharf
But like the pillar of autumn has cannons in new graphics but not old.
carmine sleet
CEA is the canon look of the Autumn
ashen wharf
Thanks
ebon wharf
Soo CEA is now cannon because of the graphics buff? Which the original ce, the one who kicked startes this whole franchise is now not cannon somehow?
carmine sleet
CEA is literally just Combat Evolved with a new set of textures. It's not really a problem that it's how everything looks in the canon
The same is true with Halo 2, the Anniversary graphics are what is canon
The story for both of the first two games is still the same since that wasn't something they touched when remastering those games
ebon wharf
Okay then
quartz willow
Wait. That's illegal
ashen wharf
So I was playing halo 2 and I saw something that I haven’t seen before...
Wait I can’t send pics for some reason.
gilded mason
Yeah, not on this channel.
ashen wharf
Basically a weird ship in halo 2 anniversary.
On a screen it said marathon class cruiser
Know anything about them? Sending pic on general channel
carmine sleet
Can't send pictures there either
ashen wharf
Can’t do it on that either.
carmine sleet
Also, Marathon Class Cruisers have been a thing in the lore for ages
ashen wharf
Oh
Probably saw them
Just don’t remember
Been while since I last played halo 2 .
quartz willow
They are battleships of the UNSC
They can take on smaller ships with ease
@ashen wharf
ashen wharf
Ok thanks
quartz willow
Go look at the Halo Mythos
stoic hamlet
They’ve been a thing technically longer than the games.
If we count TFoR as their first appearance. (Which it was IIRC)
quartz willow
IIRC?
clear wren
If i recall correctly
stoic hamlet
^^
fair hazel
@ashen wharf post a link to imgur or something with the picture
fair hazel
where
ebon wyvern
Also love that they’re called Marathon class cruisers
twilit mulch
last anchor
Bungie was not subtle with some of its earlier stuff. The SPNKr, the Plasma Pistol, the magnum in a few places. Security helmet, literally having the Marathon symbol on a couple of things
Its kind of cute
quartz willow
In the halo mythos their called marathon class battleships @ebon wyvern
ebon wyvern
I just like that they’re called Marathon because of the Bungie game.
And the other Marathon references
If I got cruiser vs battleship wrong, whatever, key point was Marathon. 👀
autumn urchin
Why arent zealots yellow in reach
quartz willow
Yea because in reach they are the artifact retrieval teams @autumn urchin
In CE and 2 they are ground commanders
carmine sleet
I know that the different armour in Reach is for artefact retrieval teams but is it possible that the armour could also denote where the Elite is from? Like, we know the Elites in Halo 4 and 5 wear a unique set from Hesduros, maybe the same could potentially be true with the other sets?
fair hazel
Marathon-Class Heavy cruisers
what about them I'm confused
Armours can indicate a lot of things and sometimes it can be that and other things
last anchor
Totally different fleets as well. The Covenant didn't have super standardized ANYTHING
last anchor
Lore book
ashen wharf
Have book called same thing but talks about story and lore not ships.
Don’t remember anything about ships.
quartz willow
It just shows the main ships used by both sides throughout the war
stoic hamlet
You may be thinking of Warfleet
warped pumice
Uhm yes, I would like to know the extended lore of the space diaper. How it functions, and what it is used for
versed helm
Protecting your penis.
Quite literally.
If a projectile was to pass through the MJOLNIR undersuit and penetrate Chief's genitals, he would be incapacitated. They are a centre of both bloodflow and and nerves.
Thus, the extra armouring around that region is a protective measure to provide additional armouring to a sensitive region.
It's not exactly a ridiculous idea by modern standards, either https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/61/Hires_080217-F-3873G-169-1-_-_Copy.jpg/800px-Hires_080217-F-3873G-169-1-_-_Copy.jpg
But if you'd rather go into a combat situation in which it's not just expected but guaranteed that you'll be hit by everything from bolts of plasma to razor-sharp shards of explosive crystal to radioactive alien bullets, and leave your Sergeant Johnson entirely exposed, then be my guest.
obsidian thistle
Do note its not particularly needed.
The undersuit does a good job due to how its made
versed helm
You can never have too much armour for your gauss cannon.
carmine sleet
That's not really what I'd refer to it as
obsidian thistle
Regardless. I am actually suprised how much lore is on the old Joyride toys.
Halopedia missed so many lil tidbits of no consequence from them.
Like I caught this ages ago. But did you know Ranger Elites in the Covenant were all volunteers.
carmine sleet
That makes sense
versed helm
Sidenote, I imagine not all Elites in EVA gear we've seen are rangers.
That'd be like saying the only UNSC Marines who fight in EVA are specialist units.
Which, considering how fully spread out Marines are throughout the UNSC fleet, would be ridiculous.
The same goes for Covenant troops.
On the other hand, there are quite likely UNSC troops who are specialized in fighting in EVA conditions and would be deployed in critical EVA engagements. Black Daggers-esque units, but non-ODST.
The Halo Encyclopedia for all its many atrocities hints that might be the case.
As well as distinguishing between UNSC light and heavy infantry units (which likely exist at the battalion level level, I'd say. Alongside reconnaissance units, combat engineers and others).
So EVA battalions (probably broken-up as needed) might be a similar case.
The reason I say battalion is the info on this canon fodder, btw, talking about UNSC Army recon units https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/news/the-art-of-war-s
"Army snipers are arranged into specialized reconnaissance units at the battalion level, and are scouts and forward observers first, snipers second."
upper star
Same for the other branches. Has the Grizzly been phased out or is been updated. Or the Vulture? Is the military structure largely going to be a rapid reaction force or are fortress worlds like Reach still viable
?
versed helm
What grizzlies remain are almost entirely in the possession of planetary forces, from Waypoint.
Vultures are generally considered obsolete to the UNSC at large, from Escalation.
If any fortress worlds exist, they're Inner Colonies that withstood or escaped the Human Covenant War.
It would be fair to assume that their current strategy is one of mobile defence and rapid reaction utilizing the fleet of their flagship, should it come to that.
Might be worth looking more into the Battle of Draetheus V.
Hm. Not a lot on the naval situation of that battle. Presumably the UNSC was holding them at bay in orbit, because the Covenant weren't just bombing the UNSC to death planetside.
Palmer did redeploy to the planet easily enough.
remote spruce
Toy bios having obscure lore feels like an obvious thing in retrospect.
upper star
@versed helm Do you think it would be worth the UNSC building successors to the Vulture and Grizzly, taking what they learn from the war?
versed helm
The new scorpion seems to be bridging the gap between the scorpion and grizzly, should it escape the art style reset
And the vulture's job postwar is kinda fulfilled by pelican and condor gunships.
upper star
I dont know what the f is up with the bot regulator but my questions keep getting docked
versed helm
It's being hyper uptight about that movie wot's happening.
I say it's gone too far, tbh, and I'm at my wit's end.
Go on the Halopedia Discord if you want higher quality lore discussion. Lower user count, but no annoying bot and a lot of people who know their stuff.
upper star
It has
versed helm
You can join from the Halopedia main page.
upper star
If the flagship were to be knocked out it seems the UNSC is instantly outgunned
wispy bough
Sorry about the filter 😦
upper star
Hence why I am wondering if successors to the Trafalgar or a ship which is a blend of the Trafalgar and Epoch classes
versed helm
Trafalgar was punic-class, I think.
upper star
I dont know if the pelican/ condor gunship variant is a decent replacement for a dedicated gunship which could be diversified by giving it a light transport ability. Similar to the real world spectre gunship
Sorry I meant punic class
versed helm
The vulture doesn't really have a light transport ability. But if it did, it'd effectively be a pelican gunship.
There's no real capability gap. Just a condensing of platforms.
versed helm
I prefer the HW2 Pelican gunships, the G77S
The Cutter ability. That thing is rad
But as for the ships - well, postwar UNSC ships aren't exactly pushovers. Faster cycling MACs and intricate reactive shielding and all that.
But the flagship does absolutely make or break the postwar UNSC Navy.
But the flagship also has a tendency to break everyone else instead, and another - the Eternity - was supposed to be in construction, wasn't it?
So it seems to be working okay.
upper star
Well no I am not suggesting a successor to the Vulture have the same carrying capacity as a pelican, cause as you said it then becomes one. I mean it can carry a small strike team or deliver ordnance drops or scout vehicles like mongooses into a fight
No post war ships of the UNSC are leaps ahead of their war contemporaries, however that one or two big stick fleet means if at any point in time one is unavailable your power is halved.
I just think their should be more of all overlap to some extent to compensate for this
No human ship can be as powerful as flagship class, however a new fleet carrier which combines a punic and epoch class, or this vindication class battleship actually being a battleship
versed helm
I mean, the UNSC doesn't have unlimited resources.
Another line of supercarriers may be pushing it.
upper star
Halo canon, states it's a light battleship which, doesn't make sense. It's either a battleship or it's a battle cruiser
versed helm
And as far as the vulture successor goes, it's kinda a niche role.
upper star
Fair point concerning resources, but the UNSC has learnt of new forms of fabrication through reverse engineering and assistance from engineers and former covenant
upper star
So at least attempting to overlap these abilities provides a more robust ability against an enemy
Fair point
versed helm
It would seem to me that the result of the failure to overlap you speak of doesn't exist.
upper star
How so?
autumn urchin
are there any frigates remaining from the human/covenant war
versed helm
Have UNSC ships ever failed to pick up the slack in the absence of the flagahip postwar?
They don't need more intermediate class supercarriers to be effective, and the lack of the flagship's prescence wouldn't represent a loss of capability.
Merely, when is present, it is a highly valuable additional asset.
And a dedicated gunship that can also deploy a very small amount of troops seems to be a niche the UNSC doesn't need filled either.
upper star
Fair point in that the post war ships do have a modular capability and can provide some, though small form of support similar to flagship
However that is just it, said support would be quite small. Also the flagship cant be rushing off to every bushfire conflict that crops up
versed helm
An Autumn-class is only "small" relatively speaking. Not a lot of supercarriers around postwar.
ashen wharf
If any
upper star
Not to mention when it has to be docked for maintenance and crew turn over it is out of the fight.
versed helm
The flagship wouldn't be needed for every bushfire. And postwar bushfires don't really tend to come in the form of invading, marauding fleets.
upper star
An intermediate class ship can give that additional capability to bolster an Autumn or Strident or any current post war ship ability
Without the need to over extend by committing the flagship
Wouldn't you say?
versed helm
I mean, I understand the desire for a more intermediate-capability punic-esque supercarrier.
But the reasoning for it doesn't lie in a gap in the UNSCs existing capabilities in a postwar context.
ashen wharf
They do have carriers though.
Forgot what they called
In halo 4 briefly
Very little info on it.
upper star
Yeah they are
ashen wharf
All we know is that it is a lite carrier that carries broadswords.
upper star
I think they are a mix of the Orion class and the Phoenix class
How I see those are more for tailored engagements
versed helm
I'm gonna bow out for now, though. I'd go more in-depth if I were at a proper keyboard.
Happy lore-ing.
upper star
If you need a quick orbital airstrip or assault ship, they are loaded at a planet and then sent out
@versed helm likewise, however I do enjoy these conversations. Keep the lore fliwing
Flowing
versed helm
what’s the Lore discussion today
subtle depot
What do the Spartans eat? I know it sounds like a joke but seriously do they eat normally or have a special diet/ eat nutrition blocks or something?
versed helm
probably a lot of protein, and carbs
i’d say around 2-3x more than the average human in calories
but they eat MREs because they’re in the military
radiant sphinx
I believe their augmentation altered their metabolic processes and they don’t have to eat as often as regular people.
modest marsh
Spartan IVs don’t need to eat as often
stoic hamlet
II’s and III’s need to eat more than the average person IIRC
In terms of how much they eat, not when
modest marsh
They needed to eat more immediately up to and following their augmentations to increase their rate of physical development but we don’t know about their dietary habits as adults
fair hazel
The autumn class should be able to hold its own well.
remote spruce
2553 and they still have canned meat
versed helm
what else would they eat
remote spruce
Space Deer
vivid dust
It's The Halo Deer™!
quartz willow
Moa is basically space deer but birds
radiant sphinx
Space ostrich
ebon wyvern
I could be wrong but I think they’re based off of Moa.
stoic hamlet
Moa is best alien birb
last anchor
Tasty
versed helm
let’s have a good lore discussion today
last anchor
We usually do
feral perch
So I wonder what happened to the Forerunner Dreadnought.
last anchor
Ardent Spirit is most likely still on the Ark, assuming it wasn't crushed during the impact of 04B
ashen wharf
I mean high charitie survived,
What if mendicant bias survived think about it flood survived sentienals survived.
That would be awesome in halo infinite ♾.
last anchor
AIs dont show signs of being effected by Halo pulses. Offensive Bias was uneffected by the 7-ring strike, as was Medicant during the final battle for the defense of the Ark.
Its logical he survived the tactical pulse over 00
clever fable
Are the lekgolo still trying to get one of the key ships, or were they stopped?
feral perch
It was the Anodyne Spirit, wasn't it, Killer Orca?
last anchor
I think so.
I keep forgetting
ashen wharf
Mendicant bias is one of my favorite characters in halo.
fair hazel
anodyne spirit
versed helm
If you ask me, Mendicant's been waaaaaayyy too focused on by certain YouTubers.
And his perceived role in modern events now kinda seems to exceed the reality of the situation.
humble yacht
That's all content creators can do, really
theorize based on what they want to happen
versed helm
See, this is why we need more deep technical lore.
So they have something more productive to recite.
The best Halo lore videos so far are, like Templin Institute ones.
remote spruce
gotta get all the views
versed helm
Now, what do you think would get more views;
"How Mendicant Bias is Chief's biological mother in Halo 10"
Or
"Halo Weapon Lore - The Assault Rifle"
humble yacht
I wouldn't watch either, tbh
one sounds like ridiculous conjecture, the other just sounds boring
versed helm
I'd watch the second one, but I wouldn't be crazy into it
Never in a million years would I watch the first because it sounds like a HaloFollower video honestly
That's what I was going for.
I guess the second one would be a gun-nerd thing.
I've always been into the lore of the smaller things
But if deeper lore existed, it might explain stuff about the cowling. Like why it's so huge.
humble yacht
I wouldn't watch a weapon lore vid unless it was a special, unique weapon like Prophet's Bane
humble yacht
and even then, I probably wouldn't watch the vid
versed helm
I dunno, a lot of tough dudebros get drawn to firearms videos.
And there's some overlap between dudebros and Halo's casual community.
I'm no tough dudebro and I'm not into firearm videos lol
I mean I'm not a dudebro and I'm well into firearm videos, so obviously I was speaking generalities.
Yeah lol, just sayin
btw I have theories about both the bolt mechanism and the cowling
humble yacht
I guess it's because it's a fictional firearm that I wouldn't be interested in learning about its technical aspects
Like, i never cared about how the BFG in Doom worked
I just liked to shoot it
versed helm
I mean, I guess it's a matter of how you approach Halo. Some people just like Halo for Halo's tone and aesthetic.
I kinda get into it on a harder-core military sci-fi basis.
It combines certain believable themes with a killer aesthetic and compelling storyline and characters.
humble yacht
I like Halo at a more macro level
versed helm
Fair play.
inland vessel
Tbh in most futuristic/alien shooters most people just except that a gun is a gun and it shoots things
It's why I gave in discussing the Needler once lmao
radiant sphinx
"None of this grey area bs"
versed helm
I've been sorta ruined by military vets.
I've been happened upon gleefully discussing simple general things and they've really gone in.
humble yacht
like if the way a weapon works is important to the plot of the story, then I'm interested
versed helm
So I like to get my own back where I can make stuff work. And also because the military is super cool.
versed helm
Speaking of the composer
radiant sphinx
Rip Tilson
humble yacht
I'd probably watch a techy vid about the Composer
There are some inconsistencies about how it works that I'd like answered
versed helm
I've said this a few times but you seem to be a unique crowd, but I reckon the composer has to take biological matter as well.
The original intent of it was to reform targeted organisms as-they-were, right?
humble yacht
I share that notion
inland vessel
It probably can be set to
versed helm
And when it extracts an essence, it takes everything. Flesh, muscle, bone. It just leaves ash, which is presumably clothing.
versed helm
Theory - Prometheans are designed to potentially utilize reconstituted biomass in their construction. Just like what happened to Davis in Spartan Assault.
Explains their floatiness - grav engineering meaning less mass is required.
And it unifies them all beyond all forms aside from knights just being sentinels.
inland vessel
Davis apparently got turned into the same or similar thing to the 'Didacts Gift'
versed helm
The support forms don't have neural imprints, but they could be made quickly out of scanned biomass.
Right, and the Didact's Gift was a durance.
humble yacht
Davis's demise is apparently never described in detail beyond the fact that he was absorbed by a forerunner device
versed helm
Which is the "soul of a Promethean knight".
Hence, their essence.
Hence, presumably all of what you'd need to make one.
humble yacht
I'd agree with that if Knight's forms looked more human
but Knight's chassis is so non-human that I don't think it's made using the digitized body as a blueprint
I think Knight chassis are premade
inland vessel
More a body needing a soul
humble yacht
like Warden bodies
inland vessel
Would explain the need for Durances
humble yacht
unfortunately we've never seen the genesis of a Promethean Knight, so we don't know exactly how the frames are made
versed helm
I'd guess promethean forms can be constructed of other things.
humble yacht
We know that crawlers can be made from raw materials in the ground
versed helm
But I'd also guess that the composer turns retrieved biomass into programmable matter.
humble yacht
I dunno, I think making metal out of dirt is one thing, but doing it out of biomass is another
versed helm
I guess. We'll have to see.
But I'm still curious as to why the composer would burn a person entirely up if it's just doing a neural scan.
And I'm partially curious as to its usefulness in general if it can't literally turn potential biomass against the flood, in an unusable form.
humble yacht
well the justification as others have presented is that the scan is so high powered that it vaporizes biological tissues
versed helm
Which also happens to include bone.
humble yacht
yeah
versed helm
I find that more silly, tbh.
versed helm
I still think it looks more like it's being stripped away than burned, though intense heat is evidently occurring.
humble yacht
I agree, but I can understand why others think it's mere disentigration
this is why this is one of the few scenarios where a tech vid would interest me
versed helm
Well, there's a potentially wider and certainly more-needed application for in-depth lore.
humble yacht
I'd also like an in-depth explanation of what happens to dead Flood biomass after a Halo firing
assuming it's not treated with Solvent
Also also, an in depth explanation of what the hell happened with Installation 08's firing
😠
versed helm
I'd guess that what happens is that without the hijacked nervous structures it utilizes, and without any potential nearby hosts, the existing Flood forms go dormant.
Like Necromorphs, in a way.
humble yacht
well, can it be reabsorbed or reinfected with a new Infection form?
versed helm
The solvent-swipe probably took a very long period of time - hundreds if not thousands of years - and evidently cleaned out most of the dormant flood.
humble yacht
Do the individual FSCs survive since they have neuronal properties?
versed helm
Evidently so. I'd even go so far as to say a simple organism like a pod infector would survive, a-la Awakening the Nightmare.
humble yacht
Awakening the Nightmare is the sole reason I have these questions
😠
I'm convinced it was fan service
versed helm
But all the nervous structuring, both hijacked and flood-made, would go dormant.
And without any hijacked nervous systems, it can't get smart enough to construct them purely of FSC.
So the Flood goes entirely dumb without any kind of coordination, just waiting for a chance to infect more intelligence.
Basic FSC impulse.
humble yacht
yeah but a super cell on its own can't really do anything other than convert other biomaterial into FSC
versed helm
It can hijack a nervous system.
humble yacht
what's not explained is how there were existing Combat Forms when the Banished broke open the barrier
there's no way that they were all freshly infected
fair hazel
It seems evident to me that the halo pulse did not work as intended.
versed helm
Could be to do with High Charity's construction.
fair hazel
Animals on the ark were present and alive when the ark was badly damaged.
humble yacht
also if that's true then that trashes the impact of H3's ending and that saddens me
fair hazel
as per Hunters in the Dark
humble yacht
HitD happens how many years after H3?
versed helm
The thing is, High Charity was entirely cordoned off.
Nothing could have gotten in to infect.
humble yacht
HitD is 2 years after H3
fair hazel
Two years and a few months
versed helm
So, I'd say the best theories are maybe that Voridus sent in more than one recon team.
humble yacht
I think reseeding would have been possible in that time
versed helm
Entering from different points.
humble yacht
those flood numbers do not suggest that they all were produced from infected Banished
versed helm
I'll give the cutscene a gander.
fair hazel
Doubtful considering the structural state of the ark
humble yacht
there were too many. They had numbers enough to overrun the Banished several times over
versed helm
It was mostly pod infectors.
humble yacht
do any human Combat Forms attack in AtN?
versed helm
Later on, I think.
fair hazel
It is more likely from these two points, both hunters in the dark, and halo wars 2, that the halo ring fire didn't work as intended.
humble yacht
if that's the case then that proves the flood forces were survivors from H3, not freshly made
fair hazel
The ones in high charity
humble yacht
which then requires in depth explanation of exactly how the firing failed to kill them all
Grim's little tweet was not enough for me
not when you're essentially overturning a very nice conclusion to a whole story arc
fair hazel
The ring was incomplete
humble yacht
That's not a good enough explanation for me
fair hazel
I guess a good analogy might be a gun being fired, but the bullet jamming and not exiting out of the barrel properly, exploding in the gun
analogy
versed helm
Looking at The Breach
The forces that emerged appear to have been one combat form.
Two small keymind war forms.
And a hell of a lot of pod infectors.
humble yacht
That's a bad analogy for me because a bullet isn't a neural physical pulse of radiation
versed helm
Actually, hold up.
More keymind war forms appear throughout, they they might have been freshly infected.
Maybe they were produced by the big, horrible lumbering infectors.
Like, that first brute who gets yanked when there's only two of them might have been pulled back into High Charity and consumed by the infector.
And others.
humble yacht
i thought keymind war forms were pure forms
versed helm
Technically they might be pure forms, but they could be getting made rapidly utilizing pre-existing nervous systems.
A process facilitated by whatever that bioluminescent yellow muck is.
So, the choreography for the fight might be.
The initial trio get infected - the first gets infected by a pod infector to confuse the brutes, the second two get subdued by a massive amount of combat forms and fed to a big infector.
The big infector probably is a simple FSC-instinct driven creature, not a coordinating nervous system.
humble yacht
There were pure forms in AtN, I know that much
And that's significant because previous lore stated that pure forms could only be generated in the Coordinated Stage, which requires a Gravemind
versed helm
Then, the combat form leads up, causes the brutes to hesitate, and the small freshly-made keymind forms assault under the cover of the pod infectors and begin to drag off brutes.
humble yacht
yet the Pheonix Logs said that the Gravemind was burned away by the purifying energies of the Halo ring
versed helm
Voridus eventually takes them down, but by then, the infector has produced more keymind war forms.
And then it spirals out of control as more and more brutes are infected.
Spawner!
That's what the big lumbering infection forms are.
I think, anyway.
humble yacht
Halopedia says you're right
versed helm
So that yellow bioluminescent muck might be an FSC byproduct.
One that gets created in a situation where a huge amount of latent FSC biomass exists and needs to prepare to re-consolidate its neural network.
Unlike, say, the Halo ring facilities where the infection stemmed from a few infection forms that would've been preserved to study.
Basically, it's designed to rapidly break down a body and hijack and alter the neural network, while a suitable pure combat shape is formed around it.
Might happen in seconds.
Then, it spits out a juvenile keymind war form.
terse gale
Since when did Halo rings outright burn up Flood @humble yacht
I thought they just killed all life in the universe so the Flood starved
humble yacht
@terse gale tragic solitude was just being poetic, in all likelihood
versed helm
"Burn away" would be a metaphorical term for "kill the integrated neural systems".
Yeah.
humble yacht
@versed helm that whole spiel was your own interpretation and not the canonical description, yes?
versed helm
Sorry, yeah. It was my interpretation.
humble yacht
just making sure
versed helm
But ignoring any of 343 Grim's attempts at justification, it fits perfectly right?
humble yacht
i wouldn't say perfectly
versed helm
What's wrong, do you think?
humble yacht
it still doesn't contend with the previously established requirement of a gravemind to create pure forms
even if Keymind Abominations are not pure forms, the infectors and swarmers are
versed helm
I think that's gone out the window by now. If not by AtN, then certainly with Fireteam Raven.
terse gale
I wish the Atriox DLC was on Game Pass too
humble yacht
also I don't think that one brute could be used to make multiple combat forms. that part seems a little far fetched
versed helm
Oh, it's not one brute.
One brute is the combat form (of which there were only one in the cutscene)
terse gale
What even happens in Fireteam Raven, I thought it was just a goofy Halo arcade game
versed helm
Two brutes are the initial two abominations we see.
humble yacht
I just don't see how the banished had enough forces to fuel the level of infestation we see in AtN
esp when you consider that at the end, there is a giant proto gravemind just on the verge of evolving
versed helm
The in-game scale is obviously fudged because of its nature as an arcade RTS.
If Halo Wars played more like Company of Heroes, then I'd be worried. But neither the SoF or the Banished could sustain the types of casualties we see in-game so it doesn't really matter.
humble yacht
Obviously that's not obvious to me
terse gale
Flood in the first HW really didn't get enough screen-time tbh, too bad they're DLC in HW2
versed helm
Just a byproduct of the modern age of gaming.
And The Flood would be an extremely difficult thing to balance.
Like if the StarCraft Zerg were entirely based around infested terrans.
Like, as a playable faction I mean.
terse gale
I hate to say it but even generally disliked publishers like EA have all free DLC and expansions now, idk why 343 made an integral part of the Halo universe DLC
versed helm
I mean, maybe it was a system that permanently spammed out free pod infectors for you to use, and every time they got a kill, you got a combat form.
Without infected material, all you could get are bigger and different infectors.
terse gale
Idc about the multiplayer part, I meant the story
versed helm
I mean, I'd say that an integral part of Halo 5 was the opposite of DLC.
remote spruce
It's not like ATN will have ramifications on newer titles
versed helm
It was free content funded by an extremely scummy REQ system that doesn't really fit with Halo's sandbox.
That's how free content works.
Give me an honest-to-god expansion back any day, I reckon. As long as it's half-decent content and not dumb cosmetics.
Cool in-universe cosmetics I can handle.
But I sure as hell ain't shelling out cash for a pizza skin. When I actually got that in a REQ I grinded for, I was genuinely disappointed.
The only Halo 5 weapon skin that's even remotely cool is the UNSC one. And even then, the default skin is better.
But retroactively I guess the pizza has meaning.
humble yacht
AtN was largely self contained. Which is a silver lining. The threat appeared and was neutralized within the context of teh DLC
humble yacht
The only outside ramifications it could really have is an additional reason to keep the Banished on the Ark
further discouraging them from leaving to interact with the rest of the galaxy and therefore the other story lines
versed helm
They'll be back.
That's something I have absolute faith in.
Wayyyy too much buildup to let it go if they're not conclusively beaten.
Probably Halo Wars 3, I'd say.
humble yacht
I mean, currently, their back under quarantine
yes, it's assumed that eventually, quarantined breaks, but that could take a very long time, so long as the Banished and Sentinels don't get stupid again
and Atriox isn't likely to allow the same mistake to be made twice
so I'm pretty confident that some outside intervention will be required for the Ark infestation to break out again
versed helm
Wait, you're talking about the Flood, not the Banished xD
Well, tbh, The Flood are already out there.
remote spruce
Voridus doesn't listen again
humble yacht
Oh you were talkin about the Banished?
I don't think anyone expected them to go away
terse gale
Still think it's scummy to make a large Flood-focused DLC $20 when people had been asking for Flood for almost a friggin decade
versed helm
And the Field Manual says outright that the UNSC has come up against them since the end of Halo 3 in the galaxy itself.
versed helm
By that logic, I almost feel that it's scummy to make anyone pay for anything they want at all.
The Flood are kinda a bit of a tricky thing to make fit with Halo's slightly PG current themes, too.
humble yacht
HW2 didn't really explain why they were at the Ark or how SoF got there, iirc, so there are definitely story threads life unwound
oh boy
cedar moth
thats where high charity crashed
humble yacht
🙄
versed helm
I mean, if you're rolling your little virtual eyes at my saying Halo's gotten more PG, it's true.
The themes have shifted well away from anything remotely horrible recently.
Yeah, people die. But it's not exactly gritty.
terse gale
@versed helm Stuff like Yayap and Colony being DLC is fine, that's standard DLC stuff. An entire Flood-focused campaign being $20 is 😬
versed helm
Like some would argue CE through 3 was.
Remember how awesome classic blood splatter was, too?
humble yacht
When I was 14, maybe
cedar moth
all the floods were in high chaarity and it crashed and then it got open with the floods in it and thats were we are today
humble yacht
now it's just gratuitous
terse gale
3 was decently gritty, you could watch people get infected and change
versed helm
I mean, you're hammering physically diminutive aliens with high-powered 7.62-and-above cartridges.
They should realistically be coming apart.
Plasma weapons too. Burning targets away.
fair hazel
Your rant about REQ system isn't quite lore and universe based and it's something I'll contest. REQ system is nice.
humble yacht
i think most gamers don't understand the significant of calibers when it comes to guns
and few games present gunfire in a realistic manner
terse gale
Physically diminutive aliens
Grunts have tougher skin than humans, m8. And they're wearing armor.
humble yacht
physically diminutive just means short
versed helm
Alright, let's focus on the fact that a plasma impact would be burning a huge crater in you.
If not completely removing limbs and body sections.
terse gale
They're 5'6
humble yacht
no halo game has ever has that degree of realism with plasma fire
versed helm
Plasma wouldn't just burn you away, in reality - it would cause the impact-point to flash-burst and then burn away.
terse gale
Plasma should definitely be wrecking people like in the books, lol
versed helm
Yeah, but the high amount of blood in classic Halo made if feel like you were wreaking carnage.
Without having to make it too sickening.
humble yacht
i don't miss the CE blood aspects
versed helm
At least it was more unique than hit-markers for telling you when you hurt something, I'll say that much right away.
humble yacht
I recall smacking dead bodies to paint floors maybe during my initial playthrough after I turned off the parental filter
after that, I stopped noticing it
and thinking on it now, I wouldn't want it back
fair hazel
Also the flood on high charity is an interesting case honestly. And limits like, gravemind to create pureforms. I'm sure there are certain situations where rules can get a bit muddy.
versed helm
Feeling powerful isn't necessary in and of itself.
humble yacht
I think getting wound up about it's removal is more immature than the blood itself
versed helm
I'm not getting wound up, I'm expressing preference and justification.
humble yacht
If it came back, i wouldn't fret too much, but at the same time, I don't find myself wanting it back
versed helm
Well, that's perfectly fine.
humble yacht
And I find the argument that Halo is worse for it to be ludicrous
because for me, blood never defined Halo
versed helm
Well, I didn't say it was worse without it on an objective basis.
humble yacht
it's not like taking dismemberment out of Gears
versed helm
I didn't even say worse.
humble yacht
that would be changing a fundament of a franchise
but Halo getting less bloody doesn't change it's identity, at least not to me
versed helm
I said it's one of many factors which results in modern Halo being more PG as an overall experience than earlier Halo media, other factors including the themes of the story.
humble yacht
The connotation of something being PG is that it's worse off
people mostly use it as an insult
versed helm
I would say that Halo's mature tone is one of the things that first attracted me to the universe as a kid, and made the universe feel immersive and believable.
Especially reading the books.
humble yacht
Hence why "kid" is an internet insult
versed helm
And when I play classic Halo games, I still feel that they strike a more mature overall style than present Halo games, due in-part to the bloody nature of combat, in-part to other aesthetic elements (though 343's aesthetic is, as far as I'm concerned, a many-fold improvement in quite a few areas), and due to the story themes.
humble yacht
I mean, to me, the most "mature" halo in terms of its themes was 4
which nobody calls a classic title
versed helm
I think "emotionally resonant" is a better term.
humble yacht
every halo had death
but 4 was the first to really make you think about mortality
I guess what one considers a "mature" theme differs from person to person
versed helm
I dunno. Facing the threat of infection at the hands of the Flood or galactic genocide is something to ponder over, if you're so inclined.
humble yacht
I think mature themes go beyond "sex and violence"
versed helm
Of course they are, but that kind of content goes a long way to establishing a mature tone.
humble yacht
I think that's a shortsighted view
versed helm
Because they are both fairly ingrained parts of the human condition.
Oh my god, is that word actually filtered?
"sex"
Jesus Christ, talk about PG-ification.
versed helm
It's kinda a hard word to use with bad intentions. It's too clinical.
versed helm
Right - you brought it up 😛 - but violence is a big part of war.
humble yacht
this is an exception because it's turned into a philosophical discussion
versed helm
And war is a big part of Halo.
humble yacht
Yes, that's true
versed helm
And blood went some way to representing violence realistically.
versed helm
I dunno, you could do it. The universe is rich enough.
But it wouldn't be particularly interesting.
humble yacht
At this point, yes
versed helm
Unless it really covered some niche subjects.
humble yacht
but as a side story, to enrich the rest of the main installments
anyways
What one considers essential about portraying war isn't set in stone
Yeah, blood helps, but it's not 100% needed
at least, not in comical amounts
versed helm
True enough. And I can't exactly say that Halo's plotline has gotten less mature.
It's just gotten less directly dark in the way it evokes its themes.
humble yacht
again, that depends on what you consider falls under the umbrella of "mature themes"
versed helm
Well Halo's plot has always concerned galactic genocide and various other atrocities.
humble yacht
Currently, Halo is toying with the definitions of humanity, freedom, free will
versed helm
That hasn't exactly changed.
And y'know, part of it is just preferential in terms of raw-gameplay. Personally, I despite hit-markers.
I think they're cheap and artificial.
humble yacht
I have no feelings towards them one way or the other
versed helm
I think reflecting actual damage on your target - through whatever method - is much more satisfying and organic.
humble yacht
I appreciate the info they give, but I can't say I'd miss them if they were gone
versed helm
And while I think it would be over-gratuitous to see dismemberment and actual gore in Halo, seeing plasma continue to burn after impact or seeing more prominent blood splatter feels much more earned.
humble yacht
Yeah, I'm not of the mindset where I'm trying to "earn" some sort of visual indication of violence
I would use it as an indication of whether I hit a target or got a kill, but I wouldn't be compelled to get the kill just to see a plasma hole in a body
not for a Halo game
versed helm
Personally, I feel like my FPS experience journey has taken a path where I've been rewarded with hit markers so many times by so many different games that it's just nothing to me anymore.
So any unique method of showing damage - even if it's just the simple, classic "they get visibly hurt" - is much more engaging to me.
And it undeniably takes less effort to implement such a system than more visually diverse and integrated wounding displays, which on some level indicates a lesser product.
humble yacht
For me, seeing the body drop or ragdoll is perfectly suffiecient
One thing I didn't like was health bars on WZ bosses, though
esp when they have visual indicators of damage already available for Knights
the health bars absolute made it less immersive for me
versed helm
WZ AI in general are kinda the thing I hate most about Halo 5. No Halo enemy should be that bullet spongey and so cheap.
versed helm
I came to this realization when I realized jackals don't recoil and expose their heads when you hit them in the hand, either.
humble yacht
I don't remember them taking that out of jackals in WZ
but I've not played H5 in 2 years so
my memory is fuzzy
versed helm
It might depend on the situation, but I can confirm that they noticeably don't stagger a lot of the time.
humble yacht
i wouldn't be surprised if they decreased flinching on jackals to make WZ artificially tougher
waste more ammo on jackals so you're more likely to go back to a req station
this is turning away from lore, though
should probably go back to more narrative-relevant discussion for this channel
terse gale
When we getting Grunt Rebellion 2.0, lol
versed helm
When they breed enough to repopulate for another go.
humble yacht
when they start feeling disrespected again
terse gale
Sooooooo is whoever's in charge of all the Covenant races now still making Grunts take their anti-breeding stuff to stop their population from exploding
humble yacht
Probably not
terse gale
cedar moth
thels a cool dude he wouldnt do taht
terse gale
What's gonna stop em going wild again
gilded mason
I don't see Atriox doing that, either
If only because he wants a lot of bodies to throw at people?
versed helm
It depends if their reproductive speed is actually as insane as it seems to be.
Like, if you're literally facing down a potential crisis, you'd do what you have to.
And the grunts themselves may not mind.
humble yacht
I feel like it depends on how the splinter groups treat the grunts
cedar moth
grunts are cool
humble yacht
and also whether their situation allows them to expand their population
cedar moth
id be friends with a grunt
gilded mason
Unggoy have had hard lives.
humble yacht
Swords of Sanghelios have been so busy, not a lot of time for populating
Maybe the Grunts on Balaho under the created are seeing a population boom
terse gale
I haven't watched more than the first episode of Nightfall but did I see aliens living among humans at the beginning?
I want Grunts living with humans, lol
terse gale
I thought I saw Elites hanging out with humans in the first episode of Nightfall, that was a year ago so I'm probably wrong tho 😄
(No I don't mean the Elite that bombs em, lol)
brittle gorge
I think you may be right
versed helm
So I did a bit of maths.
And came to the conclusion that to fit 36 7.62x51mm rounds in the MA5D's magazine in a double-stack, the casing itself must be no thicker than 8mm at its broadest diameter.
Ignoring canonical representations of the MA5's rounds, such as the Halo 3 artbook and what we see in-game, if the round is in fact 7.62x51mm and if the magazine is as we see (which we already know it must not be in the case of 54 and 60-round magazines), then it must be a very narrow cartridge similar in nature to certain modern-day hunting cartridges or pistol ammunition. A very slightly tapering shoulder, if at all.
On the plus side, I feel as if that makes sense. The basic premise of the MA5 is "we need a weapon that can hurl 7.62x51mm bullets down a huge barrel on fully automatic". If the 7.62x51 cartridge exists in Halo as I envision it, then that would overcome some modern issues with 7.62x51 ammunition. Namely the need for very large magazines and the rounds being very big on their own.
On the downside, rounds that are "straight-walled" can obviously in real life carry less propellant and may (I'm not entirely sure) exhibit a less favourable propellant-mass to muzzle-velocity ratio. That, however, could be overcome simply by having a powerful enough propellant to achieve favourable ballistics even given a (potentially) less-efficient detonation - assuming, of course, that the weapon itself can take it. As far as the weapon taking it goes, we get to pull out the "futuristic materials" card.
So, if you're like me and feel a need to explain this completely irrelevant case of artistic license, you can pretend that the 7.62x51 the MA5 fires is not, in fact, the bottlenecked traditional "7.62 NATO", but actually a high-potency slim-tapering "7.62 UNSC". Or "7.62 UEG". Or "7.62 Misriah". But I think "7.62 UNSC" sounds the best.
Oh, and if you're worried about overstepping in-game visual depictions, the 7.62 has been different in just about every game that lets you very briefly spy it in the magazine as you load it (most radically in Halo 4), and the Halo 3 artbook piece is basically just concept art that popped up in the Halo Encyclopedia everyone sane loves to ignore at first contradiction. So it's cool.
(I did the maths by measuring the pixels of the Halo 5 MA5D and gauging it against the 999mm figure from the Spartan Field Manual to find an accurate pixel-to-mm conversion by dividing the 999 into the pixel length of the MA5 in the image which was 1750 to find a conversation rate which was x0.570. Then I eyeballed the measurement of where the magazine must logically reach to internally which was just below level with the ejection port, to find that the total usable cartridge-carrying height of the MA5's magazine was about 140-150mm including the feed lips as extra space for one stack and allowing for an eyeball's margin of error. I didn't measure down to where the magazine's weird baseplate would cause the rounds to slant, instead assuming that space was inhabited by the follower and magazine spring. I also have no explanation for the weird additional shapes on the side. Magazine-based insulated heat-sinks which come into effect in EVA conditions, maybe?)
(Oh, and a modern day 7.62 NATO round's cartridge is about 1.2cm at its thickest point, with some variance.)
versed helm
Oh, and by the way, verbal, on second consideration I think you're right about the supercarrier thing.
I was on my phone and also very disagreeable at the time - the UNSC certainly does lack certain capabilities it would have had pre-insurrection, when it had larger carriers and supercarriers that were not the Infinity.
The main thing they do lack is, as you said, that orbital landing-strip capability. They've have a hard time transporting a large amount of Marines or other ground-support elements without any kind of heavy carrier or support ship.
Most postwar ships feature an extraordinarily low compliment count to boot - Warfleet says the Autumn-class has 45 Marines and a 220 ODSTs (which is an odd ratio and I suspect maybe a typo, unless Cruisers are now heavily favoured for the deployment of shock troops). So the natural conclusion is that, either, the UNSC would have a hard time getting troops groundside now or they have new/retained support ships in service we haven't seen.
On the other hand, I still don't think the lack of more supercarriers necessarily represents a lapse in firepower. Less supercarriers presumably means more frigates and cruisers, which means more rapid-cycling MACs. Quantity over quality, with the ever-looming threat that one of the biggest sticks even conceived for over 100,000 years will drop in on you.
@upper star Just mentioning you so you see I've changed my perspective.
Though I am still a little unconvinced regarding the idea of the vulture-successor. The reason for that is that the sheer amount of firepower attached to the vulture gunship seemingly resulted in it being relatively sluggish by the standards of UNSC aircraft, and it's certainly a highly prominent target. It just doesn't seem particularly suited to inserting small teams for whatever purpose, particularly if Falcons, Hornets or Pelicans are on-hand.
upper star
Well done again on that work on the magazine. No hard feelings on our chat yesterday, in hindsight you do have a point on need for a dedicated gunship and i believe that is more my bias/ experiences than practical for a post war UNSC
versed helm
The successor Pelican gunship, on the other hand, does cut down on firepower. It's only got one heavy cannon against four, and it trades the ability to carry all the Vulture's insane missile payloads (including phoenix missiles) for a laser cannon, top-mounted turret, with four hardpoints for smaller rocket or missile pods. It's got some carrying capacity, and is more mobile.
Talking the G79 here. The G77S (or similar) has no indication of being something utilized beyond the Spirit of Fire.
upper star
I do think many of the other VTOLS in the UNSC inventory should and are due an upgrade for more carrying capacity and armaments to supersede the need for a Vulture successor, codenamed Valkyrie
versed helm
But I would argue the G79's firepower is sufficient, and for anything it can't kill you're probably better off relying on an orbitally-delivered payload or a frigate.
upper star
The Pelican in its gunship variant is a bit more diverse in its ability to provide adequate firesupoort whether it be a clinical strike with a laser or heavy with a missile or that 90mm on the top
I am glad that we agree with the orbital situation for the UNSC. The need for large dedicated fleet carriers and orbital assault ships to replace the Phoenix class and Punic/Epoch class is a no brainer to me
Frigates, cruisers and what destroyers are left are good to deliver a shock troop force to quickly secure an objective. However a large platform to being troops and craft in masse is needed or you just run the risk of deploying more ships to accomplish a single goal
Plus such a successor class can be the invading force orbital command and control hub as they have more space dedicated to this task.
Will have to continue this in about 2 hours or so, on the way to Berlin atm. Keep the lore going
versed helm
I can't think of any other lore to bring up xD
But I'll be on station. More or less.
upper star
@versed helm Haha no worries mate.
rare fox
What failed s-2s are currently working for the UNSC?
strong sage
Mostly intelligence on Oni
Anyways which missile is powerfull fams , Tomahawk or Archer?
And supposedly if Archers are more powerfull how devastating can it be when providing Orbital support or cas missions
versed helm
Archers by a long shot.
They're meant for breaching capital ship armour plating
And their ground-support payloads would be both tailorable and devastating
Like, even ignoring 26th century progress in explosives, they're just bigger anyway.
strong sage
I seee but if im not mistaken tomahawk can be used to target against other ship and buildings right?
versed helm
Sure, but I doubt any modern day payloads exist for a tomahawk that could penetrate a substantial thickness of starship-grade Titanium Alloy.
I believe that in real life they are actually airburst cluster munitions, which can be debilitating to a modern ship or structure certainly, but both those things are relatively un-armoured.
versed helm
Whats the discussion?
Archers are way more powerfull
and we are comparing to the modern day tomahawk missile, correct?
quartz willow
I have no idea
@versed helm do knights actually have hardlight sheilds or are they just redesigned them in halo 5
humble yacht
Well for sure, Watchers deploy hardlight shields over Knights to protect them, but whether the energy shields Knights had in Halo 4 were made of hard light is a different story
quartz willow
Yea
versed helm
i’m assuming it’s energy though
obsidian thistle
They could be a similar tech to what the Covenant used for Energy shields.
versed helm
Question - is the FSC capable of reproducing itself super-rapidly to produce raw, unintelligent biomass?
obsidian thistle
Seeing as the Covenant reverse engineered a lot of stuff
versed helm
well, also Hard light has a tint usually
obsidian thistle
The FSC needs mass to expand. No mass equals no expansion.
humble yacht
quartz willow
I'm completely out of my league when it comes to hardlight and forerunner science
versed helm
Because playing AtN, it seems like they would have to be growing to spawn those tentacles. Unless they're using infected neural structures to rapidly rejuvenate the remaining infrastructure the Gravemind left.
humble yacht
FSC could be post-mitotic
versed helm
Right! Like, for the lore to work, the Flood would still need to be integrating neural mass to grow.
obsidian thistle
Do note the ground would technically count.
humble yacht
It possesses properties of both muscle cells and neurons, both of which are non-dividing cell types
versed helm
Uhhhh, not entirely sure about that one.
Like, grass could probably be broken down.
But not enough to conjure up enormous tentacles.
quartz willow
If the flood supercell is anything like a human cell it would split divide and constantly be growing. So yes I'd say it could do that @versed helm
humble yacht
Soil is considered organic material but not sure if it counts as biomass
versed helm
And plant and animal cells are fundamentally different anyway.
humble yacht
plant cells are definitely biomass
obsidian thistle
I say "technically" in a very technical point of view. It would help.
That said the Ark holds life. If the Gravemind got access to a huge amount of that. Biomass aint a issue at all.
versed helm
forerunner science is so interesting @quartz willow
still want to know if it could be possible to make hard light malleable
quartz willow
Yea I know it is I'm just out of my league when it comes to that @versed helm
versed helm
i somewhat am also
Hm. I very much think that, interpretatively speaking, the FSC reproducing more raw FSC matter on its own but requiring actual hosts to form neural networks is the best explanation for their capabilities.
humble yacht
There is no gravemind in ATN, though
versed helm
To establish coordination and get smarter overall.
obsidian thistle
Well here is a fun lil experiment I know the answer too regarding hardlight. In Halo 5 on a Forerunner installation shoot a Forerunner wall. See what happens.
humble yacht
Smarter in terms of combat tactics, show
versed helm
is that hardlight?
serene bluff
hard light technically can't be malleable due to the fact that it would require the ability to compress
versed helm
or energy?
serene bluff
and deform
obsidian thistle
Well first just see what happens ;)
serene bluff
in all cases, I know of hard light is statically projected
humble yacht
just tell us because not all of us are at consoles at the moment
or have H5 installed
versed helm
^^
obsidian thistle
The wall is damaged. Then quickly repairs.
This is unlike other surfaces in which the damage stays.
humble yacht
that sounds less like hard light and more like smart matter
versed helm
I'm not sure there is much of a distinction between combat tactics and other intelligence for the Flood. They just exist to feed and grow, and the more nervous systems they compile the more advanced their highest-level keyminds get, the better they get at feeding and growing.
But to make the FSC really credible as a threat, I feel, it would certainly need self-replication.
kind of like nanotech
humble yacht
well, for me, the distinction is the ability to communicate
a full-fledged Gravemind can communicate with other sentient life
serene bluff
you can't really project malleability though
versed helm
is smart matter like nanotech? @humble yacht
obsidian thistle
serene bluff
so it's closer to just replacing the damaged portion
obsidian thistle
A old tweet I had regarding the walls :D
humble yacht
yeah but how do you know that's due to hard light?
versed helm
^^
obsidian thistle
How do we know its not. But I get your point.
serene bluff
is there confirmation that the wall is hard light?
obsidian thistle
My point is mute by lack of info.
serene bluff
agreed.
humble yacht
In H5, we see watchers able to repair the armor on Soldiers and Knights
obsidian thistle
Still cool though
humble yacht
that body armor is described as smart matter
versed helm
watchers repair them?
humble yacht
In H5, yes
versed helm
H4?
humble yacht
No
serene bluff
The Promethean Knight is an advanced Forerunner AI. They can release Watchers from their carapaces, which increase the survivability of Knights in combat through the use of deployable hardlight shields, the ability to re-direct thrown explosives such as grenades, and the ability to revive other Promethean units.
in H4, Watchers revive dead Knights
serene bluff
They carry watchers
versed helm
isnt that in their armpits area
humble yacht
no, it's on their back
versed helm
they never release those in warzone
apparently the fuel on warthogs are made of nanomachines?
humble yacht
@versed helm excerpt from Waypoint:
In the latter stages of Food development, the FSC can also be spontaneously generated as the Flood attempts to transform the environment into one more conducive to the growth of the parasite.
So it looks like mitotic FSCs is an ability in advanced Flood stages
serene bluff
@versed helm what?
All UNSC vehicles are run by hydrogen
for the warthog it is specifically The M12 features a Graf/Hauptman solar/saline actuator, which is capable of converting up to twelve liters of fresh, brackish or salt water into hydrogen on the fly.
versed helm
From Halopedia Nanoreagent hydrocarbots are a suspension of nanomachines that convert carbon-heavy matter into usable fuel for the UNSC's internal combustion power plants, including the hydrogen-injected internal combustion engines used by the M12 Force Application Vehicle and the M274 Ultra-Light All-Terrain Vehicle.
humble yacht
That means they use nanomachines to make the fuel, not that the nanomachines are the fuel
humble yacht
They probably filter the machines out after the conversion process
versed helm
Its in an excerpt about nanotech @serene bluff
versed helm
something i never knew, Huragok are synthetic organisms
versed helm
The Huragok are an example of the Forerunners' mastery of nanotechnology. Huragok are synthetic organisms, having no true tissues or organs but instead being composed entirely of nano-mechanical surrogates. Their tentacles are equipped with microscopic cilia, capable of splitting apart to manipulate objects on extremely small scales. Certain Forerunner installations, such as Shield World 006, contained special touch-panels that could interact on a nano-scale with Huragok cilia.
From halopedia
serene bluff
yeah. they're synthetic.
versed helm
made from nanotech, or tech like it
versed helm
last anchor
The cool thing about Huragok is that if theres a few others around and enough raw material, they can basically rebuild one thats been "killed"
So you know that one that ONI agent shot in the head on Ascendant Justice?
Its probably not dead anymore
gaunt karma
gud
last anchor
Ascendant Justice did, yes, but Cortana shoved a bunch of Huragok onto the Gettysberg.
Thats where a lot of the captured Huragok came from that the UNSC has now
modest marsh
@astral socket that’s not really true
Just because they have the same width dimension does not mean anything about them are even remotely similar
astral socket
I mean using brass casings
coarse sigil
obsidian thistle
Today in "what odd thing CIA learned about Halo" is that Halo Reach changed the rims used on the Warthog.
carmine sleet
Aye, I saw your tweet
celest island
Anybody online?
gilded mason
No. Nobody is online.
gilded mason
Two of these on each side: |
stoic hamlet
Like this
celest island
K
stoic hamlet
||see||
celest island
|test|
stoic hamlet
Two of them
gilded mason
Two, not one
carmine sleet
I don't know why you want to talk spoilers here considering that there's a spoiler chat here
celest island
||test||
celest island
Oh ok thx
It’s not halo related
But all my servers are afk
So I went here for help
@carmine sleet
stoic hamlet
We gotchu fam
wide thicket
Have you ever built a shelf but then you realize you built the halo array
versed helm
@astral socket I'm not exactly sure about the scorpion's shells - just judging by the fact that they're T-ABCBC ammunition, they should be approaching 80 years out of date by now, actually. But the important part in that name is the T - they're still made from tungsten, at least partially. It seems like, for some reason, in the UNSC's context it is more effective to hurl a high-mass conventional-ish round at extreme velocity than an armour piercing sabot. I have a theory that UNSC armour systems may be somehow efficient at neutralizing penetrator rods or sabots, but the SRS99 existing kinda throws that into question.
Or, the rounds could be tungsten cored, with an in-built sabot instead of a discarding one while retaining any benefits offered by the follow-on impact of the rest of the ABCBC ammunition itself.
But I don't know enough about tank gun ballistics to make a certain guess either way - what is clear is that, as the Scorpion grew along Halo's cycle, people who knew less and less about tanks and had a less and less solid mental image of what they wanted the scorpion to be made changes to both the lore and the visual design. The case ejection is one such example, the specifying that the shell is APCBC is another.
Unless....
I can't find a single source which specifies that the Scorpion fires ABCBC ammunition. It could well be firing sabot with a follow-on munition, or just passively switching shell type to optimize target engagement in-game.
We've got a Halopedia situation.
terse gale
Now I wanna read all my Halo books again. I kinda accidentally spread them all over the bookshelves at my house tho, lol
versed helm
Ladies and gentlemen, official lore PSA
It has seemingly never been confirmed that the Scorpion's 90mm fires ABCBC ammunition in-game, only that the round is, in some way, made of tungsten.
Simply a case of residual headcanon infecting Halopedia, it would seem.
So, allow me to restate my prior point.
"Gawsh, it is odd how it has an ejecting brass shell - including the M820's 150mm Electrothermal cannon. I wonder what the in-universe explanation is? 🤔 "
astral socket
wait, the hannibal scorpion ejects shell casings too?
versed helm
dont see why it wouldnt
obsidian thistle
The XM820B4 does not eject cases.
*Thats the Hannibal Scorpion btw.
All it does is essentially cool down.
You can see it here in comparison with the ONI Scorpion that does eject shells. https://youtu.be/KrX_kE-EIWE?t=68
last anchor
Same animation (Because, really, its more or less a reskin), no shell
upper star
The hannibal scorpion does a cool down when it opens the ejection port, venting steam.
I have little idea what most of the design team was aiming for with the scorpion. What is ABCBC? A silly acronym for some over the top ammo type
I do like the new design just want more sense to go with it
versed helm
ive never looked much into the hannibal other than that vid tbh. it fires plasma, correct?
or is it a Gauss-type
i know rhino's fire plasma
but i also know rhino's are long ranged plasma artillery
versed helm
@astral socket If you were confused, the regular M820 cannon is the 150mm electrothermal-chemical cannon. Not the hannibal - that's some crazy gauss/laser tech.
astral socket
Wtf is elextrothermal-chemical?
Like a chem rail from Elysium or Gauss rifles from Starcraft?
Combo of rail gun and black powder?
autumn urchin
Magic
versed helm
Electrothermal relates to heat derived from electricity.
Chemical is obvious.
So I'm thinking either it's an electronic firing system, or the explosive in the propellant itself partially generates force from an electronic system.
versed helm
it just says Directed energy weapon tho. that could apply to it being plasma as well. but idk
fair hazel
"As with the Hannibal Mantis, the inspiration behind the Hannibal Scorpion was a skunkworks-style prototype military vehicle that isn’t quite ready for full production. With the rarity and high-level of this vehicle, it gave us an interesting position from which to design a new Scorpion. Thanks to a massive Spartan Laser type beam weapon mounted to the Scorpion cannon and a heavy-hitting gauss repeater turret, this might be the most lethal vehicle in the Warzone lineup.
versed helm
ah
versed helm
People are online. But they have lives too don’t forget
versed helm
Because my life is at my computer
Owning a business helps in that regard as well as mostly doing art
celest island
;-;
versed helm
But what’d you need help with
celest island
I’m
versed helm
Since this is lore y’know
versed helm
The same way.
@celest island why do you need spoilers for images here. I don’t see a need for it
If it’s spoiler related there’s #485883236430512168. Which has the new Blockbuster Film’s spoilers as well
versed helm
Ah. You could have asked in #general-chat then lol
celest island
Welp
versed helm
I’ll dm you the overall method since it seems to be a general discord thing
celest island
K
versed helm
i want a lore discussion, i have a craving
quartz willow
Hmmmmmmmmm
In the mona Lisa why are the flood so hard to kill but in other games and books they get cut down with ease
modest marsh
There’s gonna be a whole slew of reasons why you get variability between flood forms, but I think it’s pretty easily reconcilable
When the marines first encounter them, their aim isn’t exactly focused for one
Shots land but they don’t do enough structural damage
The tissue of flood forms can tolerate more injury as individual organs aren’t needed for the most part
If you compare to how Master Chief would’ve adapted, he’d essentially be sawing the Flood apart with precise shots
Also at least in The Flood, recently mutated Combat Forms required upwards of 15 rounds just to put down
That’s a lot of fire
terse gale
Why doesn't anybody use cryo weapons on Flood instead of flamethrowers, fire+undead is a terrible idea. Freezing the buggers and slowing them down/making them smashable seems like a much better plan
modest marsh
Presumably Flood forms that have been mutated for a longer duration are stronger and more resilient
Thermobarics are used on the Flood because it prevents them from regenerating and destroys infection vectors
They’re also relatively common
Cryo weapons are rare
modest marsh
Because presumably the tech is really expensive/experimental/niche
terse gale
Cryo bombs are used in Halo Wars, they shouldn't be THAT rare
terse gale
Why
modest marsh
We have no reason to think it’s representative of the UNSC proper
astral socket
Idk if cryo would work in a halo sandbox
modest marsh
Well that’s itself a gameplay consideration that needn’t apply
astral socket
I mean, that would explain why we don’t see it
modest marsh
I’m just saying I somewhat doubt there will ever be a book or comic that acknowledges cryo weapons as something the UNSC just has
It certainly seems implied by the games themselves that cryo weapons are unique to Serana for whatever reason
terse gale
Even if they were experimental like I think they are in game they should be common by the time of Halo CE-3
modest marsh
But the Spirit of Fire was lost in 2531 when she was still testing her theories
terse gale
You'd think she woulda uploaded them somewhere for the UNSC to use. And it's kinda odd that she'd the first person/AI in the UNSC to think of using them
modest marsh
Well she’s a smart AI with access to a unique support ship and a lot of operational leniency
And they’re facing a threat that the UNSC wasn’t prepared to fight conventionally
It is itself silly she’d invent cryo weapons on her own but it’s the best we got if you’re insistent on it being canon
terse gale
If I was ONI and saw that there was basically a virus on meth (Flood, lol) cryo weapons would be the first thing I think of
modest marsh
Why
fair hazel
the halo wars 2 cryo stuff is theoretical and for gameplay purposes
and you might think of it
now make it happen
not as easy
modest marsh
Freezing doesn’t necessarily kill the targeted material
Burning it means it can’t be used
astral socket
Burning is cheaper and simpler
feral perch
Blue Team having energy shields in The Package and the animated Fall of Reach isn't canon, right?
modest marsh
In both cases they just sort of slapped on the HUD from the video game without consideration of how logical it was
feral perch
Mm.
terse gale
How'd ONI study Flood without using cryo stuff
modest marsh
The only known case of them testing on the Flood was in that story in which they created their own specimens which eventually broke containment due to their massive increase in physical strength and tenacity
Other than that, documentation of Spartans fighting the Flood
terse gale
Why on earth does the UNSC have cryo pods but not any other cryo tech
covert mantle
versed helm
@terse gale Well, theoretically they utilize mass area-freezing cryogenic devices in a variety of combat roles in what we can only assume are extraordinarily specialist situations.
Halo Wars 1 and Halo Wars 2 are your sources, basically.
What else do you reckon they could use cryo for?
stoic hamlet
I feel cryo will never be seen outside of HW, it’s only really viable in the strategy game genre, it otherwise doesn’t really fit “Halo”.
last anchor
As a gameplay feature, probably. However, trecking through a section of ground suddenly hit by a flash-freeze when the UNSC drops a cryobomb on it to stop some enemy forces...now we're talking
serene bluff
I mean it kind of works if you freeze them then shatter the bodies
versed helm
I'm not sure that a concussive explosive would be particularly more effective on an enemy that's "frozen solid".
Croygenic weaponry would, however, play absolute havok with vehicles and equipment in a fairly wide radius.
versed helm
I think @stoic hamlet is right as in we won't see it outside of HW
versed helm
When
brittle gorge
Olive, are you talking about using cryo as a weapon?
versed helm
Im saying we wont see it outside of halo wars
quartz willow
Probably
versed helm
@quartz willow you’re not a split lip anymore!??
quartz willow
No I am the senate
quartz willow
Dont know about it