Jackals are still always portrayed as bad guys.
#lore-and-universe
severe elbow
obsidian thistle
Except that 1 mission in Halo 2 where they can fight on your side
versed helm
CIA, is there info on Halopedia planned about the new R Mongoose variant?
subtle depot
@obsidian thistle what mission is that?
versed helm
Well, not really new, but yeah
I couldn't have made more typos with that one question lmao
@subtle depot Sacred Icon
subtle depot
Oh when you play as the arbiter okay
versed helm
Yeah lol
subtle depot
For some reason I thought as chief
versed helm
I just thought he meant Jackals on your side post-schism for some reason hahaha
obsidian thistle
Yes we do plan to update the wiki on that stuff. Just right now we are in discussions for something very exciting for 2019.
versed helm
Hmmm
obsidian thistle
Trust me. Its huge and I cant wait to blow the lid on it
gilded mason
When in '19 are ya gonna lay your cards on the table?
obsidian thistle
January/February for the stuff we are planning now. And we will see how it goes from there
And February is more the tail end of stuff lol
versed helm
I know that I said it before but will we see other alien races outside the ones we already have
gilded mason
Maybe eventually, after the others get explored.
versed helm
All of the Halo media released within the last 7 years or so have mentioned that there are other unknown races that inhabit or inhabited the Halo galaxy,most notably the unknown alien spacecraft that crash landed on Alpha Halo as shown in the CEA terminals
And regarding that unknown alien spacecraft that crash landed on Alpha Halo,i know what we're all thinking and wondering..what species built that ship
What do you all think?
narrow wadi
I imagine that Alpha Halo is Installation 04? I wanna make sure though.
gilded mason
Yes it is.
narrow wadi
Thank you. I need to watch the H1 terminals. The only ones I’ve seen are the first one and Keyes’ one
versed helm
Poor Captain Keyes
Remind me,how did Halsey react when she found out about Jacob Keye's death
gilded mason
She closed her eyes as the assimilated Captain Keyes was destroyed.
"Rest easy, old friend," she whispered.```I also wonder..if the Precursors do return,what kind of scenario are we looking at
gilded mason
The Flood.
gilded mason
I thought the Halos destroyed all Precursor structures.
versed helm
It was theorized that star roads and other Precursor constructs in slipspace transit may have been able to survive the pulse, although this was not known for certain; to inflict as much damage as possible, the Forerunners would time the firing to a point when the maximum number of star roads would occupy normal space.[17]
gilded mason
Ah.
versed helm
Looking at those star roads,those things are scary
Now that i think about the Primordial,does anyone else other than me wonder what it said to those researchers when they asked it about the Flood
Because it did say that the answers they received were so horrifying that many of those researchers committed suicide
upper scroll
The humans are the evolution of the forruners ?
subtle depot
No they are similar as both are bipedal and fairly intelligent beings but humans are not an evolution of forerunners. The forerunners chose humanity as its heir to inherit the mantle however when they drew away themselves
digital wraith
Did Miranda Keyes ever see Halsey as more than just her biological mother? I'm guessing that they weren't close and I know that Miranda took after her father. Though I know that Halsey has feelings for her.
spiral jewel
I feel stupid for not realizing that Catherine was Miranda's mother until today
limpid kernel
It's pretty interesting
novel cliff
According to Halsey, Miranda was always really cold towards her, the only time that Miranda actually wanted to see her mother, was when she was being promoted to Commander, but Halsey didn't want to go for multiple reasons.
subtle depot
It’s a messed up family
spiral jewel
Now the only family Halsey really has left is Blue Team.
digital wraith
Isn't there a picture of Miranda in Halsey's easter egg room in Reach, or am I wrong?
Plus I'm sure some of this info is in Halsey's Journal.
I remember watching the CE:A terminals and the Keyes Flood one where he's flashing back to parts of his life I remember seeing Halsey and Miranda in them.
So sad.
obsidian thistle
Miranda isnt in the Halsey easter egg room. Thats in Halo 5.
(If Miranda is there its generic Halo 2/3 screenshots)
digital wraith
I think somewhere (not the easter egg room) there's a Miranda picture. I could be 100% wrong and it's my tiredness getting to me.
vague scroll
I'm not sure if this would fit share content so I'll just throw it here. My WIP Jiralhanae colony that strays from the typical Brute stereotype in favor of an Atriox vibe, let me know what you guys think so far?
last anchor
@digital wraith I think you're thinking of her picture in the Halo 5 opening
ocean relic
does penitant tangent have the logic plague?
obsidian thistle
Unsure its a mystery
tough yarrow
thanks for the mute @boreal bane ❤
boreal bane
Just don't make the same mistake again and we'll be cool
tough yarrow
@boreal bane lmao im just tooling i wont do it
novel cliff
Yo Phaser, try not to tag the mods unless you're reporting something
That sounded kinda rude, but just know that I wasn't trying to be
fair hazel
I really liked the attention to detail put in the halo 5 intro cutscene
boreal bane
Same. I love that cutscene
ocean relic
the one with halsey or osiris?
novel cliff
I would guess the one with Halsey
obsidian thistle
I do however would love to see actual closeups of some of the assets in that cutscene.
narrow wadi
I’m gonna ask this here cuz of it being a book thing
Should I get and read Halo New Blood, before I read Bad Blood? It seems like New Blood has a lot of essential context.
severe elbow
I would recommend it. Bad Blood is essentially a sequel to New Blood.
narrow wadi
I’ll try and pick it up before reading it
I was just trying to find context as to Mickey’s betrayal, to be honest, out of curiosity
“Mickey messed up in some way and rookie was killed by a rebel” was about all I knew beforehand
versed helm
And that Mickey's parents were Innies as well
That right there should've been a sign
narrow wadi
Mhm, probably
limpid kernel
So here's something I'm wondering
In Mombasa streets when rookie uses his night vision, he might see symbols on the roads or maybe in other places too
But what do they mean and why are they there?
unique rune
As in the circle symbols and stuff?
carmine sleet
They're left by Engineers
limpid kernel
Ohh
proud hollow
Hard to believe ODST will have its ten year anniversary next year.
limpid kernel
There's a couple symbols in the Mombasa streets levels left on the road and walls
But you can only see them with night vision activated
narrow wadi
Ah, I didn’t know
obsidian thistle
Oh those
Well in a game point of view they are to assist the player in finding places of interest.
In-universe they are written by the Huragok to note places of interest in the city cause ye know the whole portal scenario under it
narrow wadi
Which ones did then?
I know about Mickey, Buck and I think Romeo
And I know the Rookie would have been offered it if he didn’t get offed
obsidian thistle
Out of Alpha-9? Nearly the whole team bar Rookie (cause death dont maketh a spartan) and Dare.
narrow wadi
Why didn’t Dare become a Spartan?
I’m curious, now
One would imagine she’d be offered, given she was a part of Alpha-9
severe elbow
She wasn't really a part of Alpha-Nine.
She just had Alpha-Nine under her command during the events of ODST.
obsidian thistle
That also. She be more a spook than anything
narrow wadi
I still ship her with Buck TBH
I’m probably just weird that I want the whole group to be Spartans just cuz that would be cool
obsidian thistle
Well read New Blood and Bad Blood :)
narrow wadi
Well, given I own Bad Blood and I’m looking to get New Blood...
last anchor
Should be at any major bookstore
narrow wadi
Not where I live
Where I live, my book shop has the Halo books that were released in the last couple months and that’s it
I’m getting it off Amazon
obsidian thistle
Oh get the Gallery Books version of New Blood
narrow wadi
What do you mean?
vague scroll
Hes refering to the type of distributor
narrow wadi
Gotcha
obsidian thistle
Yea I find that distributor has a higher rate for bonus content than the other
And New Blood has a bonus Coda
limpid kernel
Hold up
Why did
Buck and the other ODSTs just open doors for the phantom
Why didn't they just leave from the first area
subtle depot
One word-gameplay
wispy bough
What, like fly out of the open roof? @limpid kernel
limpid kernel
Yeah that
wispy bough
Good question tbh. If I had to guess, they didn't want to draw any attention by suddenly flying out and making it obvious they were escaping?
limpid kernel
I guess so
obsidian thistle
Plus its kinda later explained that Mickey doesnt know how to keep the covies off their back. So much that the Huragok dealt with it.
Plus by all means a Covie soldier may have gotten word out about a captured Dropship as it just happened. So it was too risky in my opinion.
*"Oh that dropship was just declaired captured lets kill it" is how I imagine it would of played out
feral perch
@narrow wadi I mean, Buck and Dare were already an item at the end of ODST so you don't exactly need to ship them.
And then, you'll like Bad Blood
vague scroll
Let me simplify it... a Spartan and a regular person can still be in a relationship.
It doesn't always work, but Buck and Dare are fine
shrewd trout
last anchor
Agreed
limpid kernel
Kek
celest palm
Does anyone know what Class the Mon-Cal looking ships above Sanghelios are? I know they had blockade Runners, but I could not find the others.
gilded mason
This one?
https://www.halopedia.org/Brigantine
celest palm
Thanks!
gilded mason
👍
tall moat
They certainly look like an alien version of Infinity
celest palm
They do.
obsidian thistle
I still love how its bigger than the Infinity-class supercarrier
tall moat
It better be, UNSC too OP post-Covie war 😡😡😡
celest palm
They really are. Well, not any more lmao
tall moat
Yeah but i feel like the Created are artificially OP only because the UNSC was gaining far too much of a foothold in the galaxy
versed helm
And at this point..i still think that the only way we can truly get rid of the Created is if the writers throw in some Forerunner or Precursor space magic
Because seriously,those Guardian Custodes are waaaaay to OP
And at this point..they might as well decanonize Halo 5
tall moat
What I’ve been saying for the past few weeks^
If they can EMP entire planets, why does MJOLNIR and weaponry resist it?
versed helm
Correct me if i'm wrong but weren't there places that show that the Created's plans failed
tall moat
Yeah Riptide and Stasis
According to others, various experiments gone wrong because the AIs were like children tinkering with the gods’ work
versed helm
What was that map that is set on Auriga Station
tall moat
The H5 DLC maps
versed helm
And wasn't there something in Bad Blood that showed that the Guardian Custodes were flawed
tall moat
With space magicks tho
versed helm
Also..why the hell did Cortana even needed two Guardian Custodes to subjugate Earth,and where did the second one even come from
narrow wadi
I need to ask now cuz I’m not wholly sure of this
What WAS Dare and Alpha-9’s mission in Halo 3 ODSTV
?
They didn’t make it entirely clear, it was seemingly thrown out immediately after landing by Buck
carmine sleet
The mission was to retrieve the Superintendent's AI core due to it having sensitive information they couldn't risk losing
limpid kernel
And the original mission before it changed was to get inside the covenant ship
carmine sleet
Aye, that is true
And if Alpha 9's mission hadn't been changed, they'd have likely died in the drop from Regret's jump
obsidian thistle
Dares mission was to recover the data core of the super. Lucky for Dare, Buck was recruiting his teams replacements (Dutch, Romeo, and Mickey) at around the same time.
celest palm
It could end with the Chief firing a Ring at an Un shielded Domain.
To collapse the network
ocean relic
question, what is (the planet) reach's current situation?
broken cairn
Probably gone
ocean relic
i heard it was recolonized
obsidian thistle
Current. Not colonised due to it being 2018. xD
But in modern Halo
That will help
broken cairn
I also have a question is the flood completely gone
unique rune
no
obsidian thistle
No
broken cairn
Can they ever be gone
obsidian thistle
Yes in theory. But thats one possible end game for the franchise
ocean relic
what year are the halo games currently set in
obsidian thistle
- But Halo media in general has gone beyond it to 2610
ocean relic
huh
night tulip
Halsey had a eulogy in reach when it was unglassed, in the future. Also there were halo 3 trailers with war museums and such set in the future.
night tulip
Yeah cause Halsey would be old af
obsidian thistle
Or dead
night tulip
Or dead
Would the unglassed reach be a result of terraforming from the UNSC or does glassing just naturally go away after like 30-40 years?
spiral jewel
If my math is correct, Thel Vadam will be celebrating his 75th birthday sometime after the events of Infinite and John-117 will be celebrating his 49th birthday either before or after Infinite
vague scroll
Sangheili also do not have human lifespans...
spiral jewel
So, he's younger or older that what I'm estimating?
vague scroll
hypothetically, given Sanghelios may or may not orbit the same way that Earth does around its star.
Also...got to account for their biology - they've always been comparatively more powerful and stronger than humans, having things like 2 sets of hearts and lungs and what not...
spiral jewel
Like the Time Lord's Of Gallifrey, which is a discussion for another day?
vague scroll
probably
ocean relic
i know this sounds messed but... how do elites...do it...?
unique rune
cloaca
gilded mason
I imagine pretty similarly to humans.
narrow wadi
Here’s a question and maybe I’m dumb
Why are there FLOOD on the random mining ship that the Heretic Leader was holed up in during Halo 2?
It’s like the one appearance of Flood in the trilogy that makes zero sense to me
severe elbow
It's just another Flood research facility. The ability to just drop the station into Threshold probably made it a good place for it.
narrow wadi
Ah, thank you!
I wasn’t sure cuz it just seemed exceptionally random
I’d have followed it better if the station was on 05, because that place is already infested, but it isn’t
severe elbow
It kind of is since the only Flood facilities we see are on Halo Rings, but there are likely many Forerunner facilities that aren't Halos that hold Flood samples for research.
narrow wadi
Is the only reason the Leader is there is cuz Spark was there?
obsidian thistle
Well the dialogue that explains the station a lil better is scripted after a certain time at a certain point during the Sesa fight
severe elbow
The Flood on the mining facility were also likely accidentally released by the Heretics messing with the station, or they were already released and the Heretics allowed it to grow.
obsidian thistle
Oh Sesa was ordered there by the Minor Prophet. And they were merely abandoned.
narrow wadi
I kinda gathered that the Heretics likely released the flood by mistake in a panic cuz of the Arbiter
severe elbow
No, the Flood was loose before the Arbiter and the Covenant arrived.
narrow wadi
was the heretic leader thick, then?
why not just take Spark and leg it out of the station that’s infested with Flood
severe elbow
They had no way out except for their Seraph.
narrow wadi
Still, they had plenty of time
You never encounter the Flood until you follow the Leader there, and he isn’t just trapped in there before you get there
carmine sleet
Not really, Sesa didn't want to leave his men behind
carmine sleet
Again, he couldn't really leave
narrow wadi
Like Halo 2 is my favourite Halo
And I love those missions
It’s just... a little weird
severe elbow
Maybe they hoped the storm would kill the Flood.
narrow wadi
Mhm, maybe
obsidian thistle
I do wonder what Sesas escape location was gonna be
gilded mason
Tahiti.
obsidian thistle
Like what if he actually escaped the Arbiters wrath
severe elbow
He could maybe try to find the Banished.
gilded mason
Why would he want to?
severe elbow
They'd have a common enemy, and they were the only faction opposing the Covenant, even if it was just small strike.
obsidian thistle
He would be a dead man nearly anywhere he went in Covie and human space
severe elbow
Or he could go to Sanghelios or another Elite Colony. Having an Oracle might get people to listen to him.
vague scroll
Do you guys think Jiralhanae "skeins" refer to subspecies, or refer to political orders?
gilded mason
Politcal.
vague scroll
cool
that brings up the question then, how many subspecies of Jiralhanae are there?
lore doesn't account for it but we do see by differences in art style that there are seperations. Like groups that are significantly hairy and others that are nearly hairless.
gilded mason
Probably just a variety of phenotypes, like 343 said with Sangheili.
vague scroll
True, but it still seems strange that we lack names or considerable identifiers for the different phenotypes that we encounter.
Or rather it hasn't become a necessity to address them yet.
Whereas we actually do have a distinction among the Kig-Yar.
last anchor
Im sure 343 will get on that
vague scroll
I'll assume it will come up in some Atriox-related novel at some point
tall moat
I wonder if the Banished are going to be a Noble Team and only appear in one game and nowhere else
Infinite might not cover everything since the threat of the Created is so great
tall moat
I could imagine the Banished being... banished from the FPS games
Only being able to see their return with HW3
silent orchid
Part of me hopes that doesn't happen
silent orchid
They seem interesting enough to the point that they could be important later on
spiral jewel
Is it too soon to predict that the Banished could be in H7 or H8? @vague scroll @last anchor
vague scroll
No, but their presence is at this point unlikely.
Due to the very "Halo:CE vibes" that we're getting from Infinite, it may be that, at least at the beginning, it will be the traditional Covenant enemy line up
but anything is possible
feral perch
I think that, considering HW2 drew from CE for its campaign, and the fact that Infinite is doing the same, the Banished could appear in the latter.
tall moat
Yeah they’re not going back to the old Covenant, that should be left for a while
The Banished basically are the new Covies
And given that it needs ‘CE vibes’, we’ll most likely get our introduction to this new and refreshing enemy
tall moat
And thank god for no Jackals, they’re probably my most hated Covenant species
Fragile little ***** hiding behind their super tough energy shields
tall moat
Yeah either sniping from afar or being cowards on the frontline, Kig-Yar are the scum of the Halo universe
spiral jewel
I was going to type something about how Cortana and Miranda (Keyes) are most likely half sister or something, but I'm not sure how it'd play out or sound good being typed or make any sense in general
vague scroll
...you're better off not going down that rabbit hole
spiral jewel
I agree with you, Tide... That'd be one gigantic mess.
bright cloud
The lore seems completely messed up after H5. Honestly wish we got the story that was originally being teased with Hunt the Truth and the marketing. Not the generic Terminator storyline we got. Even AI taking over the galaxy
last anchor
You can thank Brian Reed for that I think.
tall moat
😒
bright cloud
It just retconned a lot of stuff. AI can't take over UNSC ships lol like how
last anchor
They didn't though.
tall moat
Theres just too much convenience and plot armor required for the Created to be taken out
last anchor
That was the Guardians
bright cloud
No at the end Cortana rallied the AI and they started taking over ships
it wasn't the guardians
last anchor
Not all of those AIs were ship-based, mate. If you listen there's colony support AIs, educational AIs, Sloane (who ran a colony), maybe ONE shipboard AI and it sounds like she was attached to some kind of support vessel.
They didnt say anything about taking UNSC ships over. I mean the station Torque was set on was taken over but thats a space station, thats different
tall moat
AIs can definitely control ships?
last anchor
I think what Step was saying is that most UNSC AIs have programming limits and firewalls that prevent them from outright taking over a ship.
HOWEVER; most of the AIs Cortana contacted were rampant, or nearing so.
Their restrictions and coding are far less...resiliant.
And with a little push from the Domain's computing power, perhaps...
Honestly its entirely plausable within the Halo universe, if a bit stupid IMO
tall moat
And they’re Smart AIs, there’s little to stop them
whole matrix
Imagine Cortana taking control of a Halo ring
tall moat
I’d imagine a simple and predictable Infinite storyline could be; Cortana tries to secure the Halo Array (including 09 from HW2), but John manages to somehow fire a Halo ring extragalactically and rid the Created of their Domain, thus ending their immortality. Banished to fight and Flood as a bonus desirable side effect for firing the ring(s) I guess? 🤷🏿♂️
unique rune
AI can’t take over ships
funny joke
fair hazel
The story that was so called originally teased? It was a part of the story was was overfocused however not like, it was this so they changed to something else and it’s the remnants. And alien invasion id say is more generic than AI takeover a galaxy.
But yeah AI do have a lot of, ability let’s say. They do need to interact with said systems in the first place though. Roland can fly infinity without aid.
Honestly I think that would be cool. Friendly sided AIs, piloting ships and controlling robots to do the maintenance and so on.
Like a not enough people to use the ships. Situation.
bright cloud
Point being most of the time in Halo Cortana had to be taken out of a computer and put into another console on tbe ship to do a function
She didnt have complete control from a bridge station
Either way the Cortana is basically Skynet terminator storyline was not very interesting or what was advertised and marketed
last anchor
Because of those restrictions, yeah
bright cloud
It isnt restrictions in Cortana tho. It's that the computers on the UNSC ships arent networked so the AI dont have 100 percent complete control. Which is smart if your AI goes psycho
last anchor
Yeah, at least, that was the plan. Sadly when you get an AI into the Domain...well.
versed helm
SCIENCE
charred flower
"So whats the next step of your master plan?"
vague scroll
World Domination obviously. Maybe build the world's largest sling shot along the way.
ocean relic
how old is chief? (not counting years spent in cryo)
last anchor
He was born in 2511...its 2559...
feral perch
You know, if the Spartan-IIs get stronger as they get older, then their mental acuity may also improve with age
If that's the case, Del Rio's comment about Chief being an "aging Spartan" doesn't hold much weight as an insult
narrow wadi
Also, factor in time in Cryo
last anchor
Not that it did to begin with because, you know...Chief.
And look whos laughing NOW, ey "captain" Del Rio
narrow wadi
Which for Chief is at least 5 years
vague scroll
@ocean relic technically he's younger than even the five years taken off from his Cryosleep period between 3 and 4, if you account for being in cryo during every voyage he went on going from colony to colony to defend planets since it could take as many as 6 months to go from one UEG colony to another.
ocean relic
@last anchor isnt del rio now a senator?
last anchor
Yes, he is. He got himself busted down from the captain of the UNSCs greatest vessel to being a paper-pusher
versed helm
F
last anchor
And now he's probably either dead and/or stuck somewhere because the Created
F indeed.
I mean sure he's a Senator so he's got some political power but, you know. Political power and UNSC Infinity are different kinds of "whack"
ocean relic
Created?
feral perch
Oh boy
ocean relic
what?
gilded mason
Are you asking what the Created are, or something else?
feral perch
Have you played Halo 5?
ocean relic
no
gilded mason
The faction Cortana created as part of the main plot of Halo 5.
ocean relic
so the new prometheans
ocean relic
halo subreddit
gilded mason
Though really, sucks for the AI that didn't turn after this is all over.
feral perch
Why?
gilded mason
I can't see the general populous really trusting them anymore even if those AI personally didn't do anything wrong.
feral perch
Good point
gilded mason
Which is also sad because the Halo series having good relationships between organics and AI was really refreshing before now.
feral perch
that's probably good
obsidian thistle
I still find it scary how Cortana has a ONI weapons AI on her side
Cortana can in theory mass produce experimental stuff and arm her forces with said armory
vague scroll
Didn't she recruit the entirety of Liang-Dortmund's R&D AI department? Before they blew up their orbital labratory?
vague scroll
Vindictive? Probably. Single-minded? Hardly.
modest marsh
Andrew put himself on the top of her blacklist when he tried to have her killed and abandoned her and Chief on Requiem
I can’t think of someone more deserving of her ire
vague scroll
031 Exuberant Witness should be at the top of that list but she's still around.
Given she stole back Blue Team.
carmine sleet
If anyone lays a finger on Exuberant Witness, I will personally hunt them down. She just wanted friends
modest marsh
She’s a lot less dispensable given Cortana’s predicament
It is very likely Del Rio was at Cortana’s mercy very soon after her attack on earth
vague scroll
If we don't have any physical evidence of Rio being crushed by a former slipspace-capable giant titanium soda can, he's not dead unless stated.
obsidian thistle
Exub is either on Infinity or direct communication with it.
modest marsh
He’s not stated to be dead but I can’t imagine many situations in which he is not
carmine sleet
Exuberant stayed behind on Genesis, as seen in Bad Blood
vague scroll
Bad Blood didn't show her get on the Infinity so probably direct contact.
obsidian thistle
Seeing as she does help with some War Games
vague scroll
Yeah, probably in communications or maybe an AI fragment.
modest marsh
He’s a respected member of the UEG, making him a prime target for Cortana from a political slant alone
obsidian thistle
I know Exub stated on Genesis at that point. But after is another story
vague scroll
True.
ocean relic
ok, where do you think cortana stands on the allignment chart?
gilded mason
Some form of evil.
ocean relic
expected
modest marsh
Lawful
modest marsh
Her purpose is to enact a code to ensure order
versed helm
Neutral
gilded mason
Though her methods to get there are certainly chaotic.
modest marsh
In what way
modest marsh
That’s not what chaotic alignment means
She has a code of conduct she follows
Killing innocent people for no reason is chaotic
gilded mason
Killing innocent people for no reason is chaotic
So why'd she kill them?
modest marsh
To enforce her means of global takeover
Her efforts have purpose that exist outside of her own irrationality or personal gain
Chaotic and Neutral respectively
gilded mason
How does killing millions like that enforce her rule?
modest marsh
It’s war
She didn’t kill them because she just felt like it
And it doesn’t help her directly
gilded mason
To be clear, I'm talking about things like Meridian and other Guardian sites.
modest marsh
It’s for her cause
lethal flicker
Cortana is crazy...😂☺
ocean relic
if you use an emoji again i swear
modest marsh
She’s deranged but her actions are dictated by premeditated and stringent adherence to a moral code that she abides by
It’s her law
gilded mason
So her moral code is to not care about any collateral damage her actions cause, right?
modest marsh
She isn’t purposefully causing as much destruction as she can
It’s a strategic show of force to intimidate her greatest threat
Her reasoning is that this is the fastest way to benefit the galaxy in the long run
it’s wrong to be clear
But it is consistent with her philosophies
gilded mason
It’s a strategic show of force to intimidate her greatest threat
Even before anyone knew what was even going on?
modest marsh
Because announcing her plans would benefit her campaign against the galaxy’s rulership how?
gilded mason
I think I might just be stuck on how everything is doing is just plain dumb.
modest marsh
How exactly would you handle a hostile takeover of the galaxy
I mean it is dumb, I just don’t think Cortana was acting out of an irrational or selfish desire
gilded mason
True
gilded mason
Purposefully, or accidently?
modest marsh
Accidental
gilded mason
Ah.
modest marsh
Cortana’s judgement here is what makes her evil
Someone who is considered “morally good” would not choose to sacrifice the lives of millions for the long term benefit of society
Cortana decides to make that decision because she thinks she has the authority to do so now
And it is acceptable in her eyes because the cost-benefit are more than worth the short term damage
It’s the train track riddle but instead of the train changing lanes to kill one person, the train isn’t going to kill anyone but it’ll take longer to reach its destination and may never at all
Cortana is changing the lanes onto the track lined full of people, but it is the fast track to success
gilded mason
The main point of dissent for me is that I can't see any benefit to killing those people like that. I feel she'd have better 'PR' so to speak if she made sure they were evacuated beforehand, either directly by her force's hands, or otherwise.
modest marsh
Well also
We gotta like
Really dislike her
So giving her any room for empathetic thoughts detracts from her role as a villain
gilded mason
A bit of a mistep on 343's part, I think.
modest marsh
It’s a contrivance to emphasize her role as the antagonist
gilded mason
Yeah
modest marsh
“Ends justify the means”
But anyway, I just don’t think one can reasonably say she’s on the same philosophical category as Chris Nolan’s Joker for instance
gilded mason
Oh yeah, I agree there
quiet dock
Cortana activating the guardians was never a malicious act with the intent to intimidate
It was initially reflexive, as the campaign stated, but Meridian was with the intent of accessing Blue Team and bringing them to her
In other cases she only will attack if they do not comply with her commands, which is lawful I think
However, it’s worth nothing that I don’t think she’s evil. It was stated that her plan is to claim the mantle and be the leader of a galactic, imperial peace
Hostility on her part is only the lawful reaction to rebellion and insurrection
gilded mason
And that is evil.
gilded mason
but Meridian was with the intent of accessing Blue Team and bringing them to her
The Prometheans attacked after Blue Team left, though.
quiet dock
The Prometheans were clearing witnesses. Not a hostile act, simply trying to keep Cortana’s plans in the dark
gilded mason
...That's evil.
quiet dock
An act of war? Maybe. But not unjustified in the cause of war
severe elbow
quiet dock
I don’t think Cortana had full control of the prometheans at this point
gilded mason
She definitely did
quiet dock
They were under the Warden’s control in the first place
last anchor
Nope. The prometheans assigned to a Guardian are under the guardians control.
gilded mason
Warden was always under Cortana's control
last anchor
And when it was activated it followed its programming.
quiet dock
The Breaking
last anchor
The Warden showed up when Osiris got too close to the guardian and Blue Team
gilded mason
As seen by Dominion Splinter
quiet dock
The entire mission is Cortana fighting to control Warden and failing until her physical manifestation was completed
gilded mason
It was an act, as noted by Blue Team
quiet dock
Warden was sending the legions of prometheans and fighting blue team
severe elbow
Blue Team points out that Cortana could stop the Warden if she wanted to.
wispy bough
Yeah, Warden was always under Cortana's control. Cortana was playing mind games.
quiet dock
Which I’m not sold on
gilded mason
They talked about how Cortana could end this at any time, but chose not to
quiet dock
But fair
severe elbow
They also had that line comparing Cortana and the Warden Eternal to Greek gods, and how mortals never fared well in those stories.
quiet dock
A line of in game dialogue from a character suspicious of Cortana’s actions doesn’t mean Warden was not in control
gilded mason
Dominion Splinter asserts Blue Team's line of thought
last anchor
Pretty much
quiet dock
Disclaimer, I don’t want a redemption from Cortana.
wispy bough
Chief calls it out - Cortana was using physiological tactics to trick Chief/Blue Team.
feral perch
*psychological
quiet dock
But Warden was commanding the armies, and to Cortana’s long term goals, she didn’t need to supervise especially when her objective in the system was gone
I.e. Chief
feral perch
Well, I suppose we should ask
gilded mason
Even if you're correct about this, she is still responsible for his actions.
quiet dock
The qualifier I think is that Cortana does not have hostile intent, until someone directly interferes in her plan
feral perch
How much long-range monitoring or direct intervention was Cortana capable of prior to Blue Team's unlocking those three structures on Genesis?
gilded mason
The qualifier I think is that Cortana does not have hostile intent
In every Guardian awakening, she does nothing to mitigate damage to the people.
feral perch
I've forgotten what exactly those were for
quiet dock
Collateral damage on the one guardian she was responsible for directly activating is on her, yes
gilded mason
And she only simply acts offended when John asks how about how many millions of people were killed by them.
spiral jewel
I might sound crazy, but I think that there is a second Modus operandi for Cortana kidnapping Blue Team, as to what it may be, I haven't a clue
quiet dock
And Age of Ultron?
feral perch
I think that perhaps she may have been trying to kill Blue Team and preserve Chief
gilded mason
Probably
feral perch
Is that possible?
quiet dock
She could have separated them and let Warden slaughter them
Or commanded Warden to kill the other 3 before stopping him
feral perch
That would have been too obvious
quiet dock
Again
wispy bough
Probably because theyall realised Warden was under Cortana's control and her killing Blue Team would make Chief destroy her.
quiet dock
Separate them
gilded mason
She probably didn't want it to be too obvious to John
feral perch
still too obvious
spiral jewel
I feel like Cortana was probably aware that John, Fredrick, Linda and Kelly are metaphoric siblings at the time
quiet dock
If her plan went right, they were still effectively removed from the equation
quiet dock
Oh she was aware
feral perch
I look at it this way:
quiet dock
She also is fully aware of how dang efficient Spartans are at combat
She would know Spartan IIs aren’t going to go down from what she threw at them
feral perch
She could be compared to a very controlling, obsessed... Lover? She may have wanted to separate Chief from all his other support, so she would be his only refuge or recourse.
quiet dock
Yugioh had a character like that
But besides the point ultimately
I’m arguing that Cortana is lawful neutral
Because ultimately her goal is to be that
feral perch
Lawful by her own imposition.
quiet dock
Fair, but she definitely isn’t chaotic
gilded mason
She plans to compose all who oppose her, and leaves the essences inside the hellscape to their fates, as well.
feral perch
Of course as you said, that's not always wrong or evil
quiet dock
Compose?
gilded mason
Yes.
severe elbow
I would argue not caring about who gets hurt in her activating the Guardians makes her chaotic.
quiet dock
When was composing on the table?
gilded mason
Cortana said so in the final mission
versed helm
Halo 5: evil space owls
quiet dock
She doesn’t even have the tech available
gilded mason
Yet she said so.
quiet dock
No memes XL, remember
feral perch
We just don't know enough at this point.
severe elbow
Not to mention it's highly likely most of Luna's population was killed when the Guardians EMP-ed Earth.
gilded mason
During her speech to the people of the galaxy
feral perch
Chief says that he believes she knew the exact body count due to the Guardians.
quiet dock
Isn’t that standard law/war?
Also, these scales are never without blurred lines tbh
So I can lean toward more chaotic
severe elbow
Murdering large swaths of civilians is frowned upon, in general.
feral perch
This may have been the writers way of saying, she knew the exact body count.
quiet dock
She did, looking at her response
gilded mason
@quiet dock
However, for those who refuse our offer and cling to their old ways...For you, there will be great wrath. It will burn hot and consume you, and when you are gone, we will take that which remains, and we will remake it in our own image.
quiet dock
Okay, for one enough pings
severe elbow
Cortana quoting the Didact is also a hint of who she is now.
feral perch
That could mean anything.
spiral jewel
I feel like Cortana's madness also stems from holding back the pain from the loss of Jacob Keyes , Miranda Keyes and Johnson, but I could be wrong
feral perch
Doesn't have to be composing
gilded mason
@feral perch
It sounds exactly like composing, though.
feral perch
AIs probably don't care as much about human suffering as humans.
quiet dock
Or glassing
feral perch
On the other hand, Isabel.
gilded mason
we will take that which remains, and we will remake it in our own image
A nice hint.
quiet dock
And reminder of Cortana’s perspective
feral perch
I suppose...
gilded mason
It will burn hot and consume you
And this looks to match what was seen on Ivanoff Station.
quiet dock
Thats reading into it too much
gilded mason
Not really
quiet dock
Kinda
gilded mason
I see nothing else that it could refer to.
quiet dock
Literally glassing
gilded mason
And the whole "Remake what is left you you in our own image"?
quiet dock
Society
No one said she was referring to their souls
I concede tho
She is more on the evil side, but I don’t see that as a result from her intent
More of a shifted perspective
Where she’s willing to sacrifice the now for the future
Because once the purge is done, then what should be left is a kind of dystopia
And that could theoretically last forever
severe elbow
I mean, when you use the term "purge," it's kind of a ringer for her being evil.
quiet dock
And at some point it would become a utopia
Again, I concede
But more so because her actions are evil, because her perspective is skewed and probably is to an extent rampant
severe elbow
There's 100% something wrong with her, yeah.
quiet dock
Not because she is trying to be a Truth or Didact
Her intent is natural still I feel for long term
modest marsh
Disregard for the livelihood of others isn’t chaotic, it’s evil
Otherwise, what is chaotic good?
versed helm
I wonder if it's possible to repair all the technology that was disabled by a Guardian Custode's pulse
modest marsh
Negligence isn’t the deciding factor here, it’s what motivates one’s actions
Someone who acts without motive is chaotic
versed helm
Remind me,hasn't it been confirmed that Cortana has the logic plague?
gilded mason
Remind me,hasn't it been confirmed that Cortana has the logic plague?
Only a hypothesis some people have
quiet dock
Cortana has a motive, the mantle of responsibility
Which is galactic peace
Not quite chaotic
gilded mason
The Mantle isn't a good thing
severe elbow
A heavily flawed version of galactic peace.
quiet dock
Methods are another story
severe elbow
The Mantle is inherently racist, despite the intention behind it.
gilded mason
Exactly
And as said by the Librarian in Halo 3, it made the other races too dependant on the Mantle holders.
quiet dock
I never said it was a good thing, and the majority of the modern universe in game doesn’t fully understand the Mantle like that
last anchor
PRobably for the best realy.
spiral jewel
I thought one of the San'Shyumm (that fled the flood infested High Charity) that was being interrogated by ONI, "Denver", said something about Cortana having the logic plague. Or something along those lines
unique rune
He suggested it could be Logic Plague, but no outright statements confirming that it is.
And I'd really prefer it not be Logic Plague.
gilded mason
Same
versed helm
Just remember that the cortana we’re dealing with now is just a fraction of the original cortana
And all current attributes tied to that fraction
Hence behavioral changes
spiral jewel
What happened to Denver after being interrogated at the notorious Midnight facility? Is he still there or has he died under mysterious circumstances?
gilded mason
He's currently staying at a 5-star resort.
spiral jewel
Can't tell if that's sarcasm or not
gilded mason
Just a joke. We have no idea what he's up to these days.
spiral jewel
I assume that he's still in Midnight
gilded mason
Probably.
feral perch
Where does this information come from??
gilded mason
Those legendary crates.
feral perch
Oh.
spiral jewel
Yeah. HiddenXperia (a former moderator here) had made a video about it November 2017
spiral jewel
Odd. His icon isn't showing...
severe elbow
Doesn't show if he's offline.
last anchor
Yeah, most of the really big mods (aka those with big channels) tend to stay offline usually so they dont constantly get spammed with people
Rightfully so IMO
severe elbow
Well, the rules also state not to tag mods unnecessarily.
spiral jewel
That as well.
charred flower
Who likes/liked Bad Blood? I bought that and Silent Shadow the other day. I'm interested in what happens post Halo 5, so I'll start with that one.
vivid dust
haven't read it but apparently it's good
charred flower
👍
wispy bough
From here on, we will refer to it as Buck Book 2
digital wraith
Where did the incorrect name of Storm Covenant come from?
I feel it was from a YouTuber back in 2012 misinterpreting something.
It just stuck, but it's never been a proper term in-lore or by 343i.
wispy bough
It was a name mentioned in either a Gameinformer or OXM article.
343 came out a few years back and said the Storm Covenant was never a thing. Just a misquoted and misunderstood thing because the Covenant in Halo 4 were using Storm Rifles.
digital wraith
Thanks.
versed helm
What would be a good location to hide from the Created?
I was suggesting either the UNSC Infinity,Rossbach's World,or the Midnight facility
versed helm
Anyone?
Well, that answered my question on Storm Covenant
I've been wondering why they were named that
I wonder if we'll ever see Sali Nyon's group again
obsidian thistle
The Storm Covenant name comes from a journalist misunderstanding the term "Storm Elite" and assuming "Storm" was the name of a faction. 343i rightfully quickly debunked that but the damage was done. Halo Follower (cause indeed deep research into this actually lead back to them and this isnt just me blaming them), then Halo 4 Follower, was one channel which was growing rapidly during this and kept saying Storm Covenant even after 343i clarified it. It wasnt till later Halo Follower stopped saying it. But the name stuck in the minds of fans.
@versed helm so that is the long answer. They have no name. Just a Journalist mistake caused the Fanon name
vague scroll
@versed helm Midnight is probably already compromised, UNSC Infinity is always one step away from being caught, and Rossbach's World is a low-tech drunk haven so I'll let you decide which one is better.
digital wraith
No so much of a lore question. Despite there being 7 Halo rings out there, who here thinks that the ring at the end of Halo 5 is Installation 09 from the end of Halo Wars 2?
In my mind it could be, but also maybe not.
vague scroll
Again, nothing exists to support the hypothesis just as much as it doesn't fit for any other potential ring. All we know is its a ring around a terrestrial planetoid, we'll just have to wait and see.
digital wraith
It's a 1 in 7 chance.
I think it's more due to the storytelling tool of showing something that could become important later on in the overall storyline that people have begun to think that it's the same ring. I don't mind really. Just some healthy speculation.
At this point I'm interested in post Halo 5 lore.
vague scroll
Well that's the whole point, they want you to feel intrigue, a story can't sell without it.
And its a good thing though I'm sure there are fans that would promptly disagree with me if this was another discord because they just don't like where the series has gone since Reach.
There are those that are turned off by the series in general right now the Guardians are a culmination of locking the story into a corner, in some ways, they're right.
The Guardians are a bit of a lore bottleneck so we'll have to wait for Infinite to see how we get out of it
digital wraith
This stretch before Infinite I feel is a great time for a lot of people to catch up on the lore.
fair hazel
how are they a bottleneck
vague scroll
Anyone who wants to play with Fan canon can't really do anything with the current canon up to late 2558 because the Guardians shut down all continuities involving the post-War politics which a few fans have a preference for. Then the Guardians are an enemy type that we still don't know the conditions for how they can be beaten along with their stature being the policing of an entire solar system.
There isn't much anyone can do to explore outside small topics during the events after 2558 unless its segregated to its own thing like The Hole in the Wall seen in Bad Blood or Trevelyan like in Legacy of Onyx, they're pockets of story that can be addressed but the overall galaxy has now been cut off from communicating with one another and it shortstops most other plot lines because now everything has to be focused on the Created. It doesn't leave much space for interpretation. That is, unless you get creative.
But for those not having an issue with the Created conflict, the bigger problem is that the Guardians just seem nigh unkillable, an enemy like that is overpowered and brings up complaints like Halo going full-on science fantasy, or that its unrealistic, or that it came out of nowhere - tied into the complaints about Cortana's personality.
In many ways, its a less severe version of Mass Effect 3's ending, particularly destroy, before Bioware extended the ending due to fan complaints because no one knew what happened after Shepard's choice. A lack of clear future for the franchise because by creating a foe like the Guardians and leaving the story on a cliff hanger, the Halo universe suddenly feels a lot smaller than it actually is.
obsidian thistle
Well
There is the Believe and Reach Legendary Edition canon
That go up to 2610
vague scroll
Most writers I've seen attempt doing fanfics in that era have a real issue with either making the series feel a lot less Halo or end up regurgitating what we already have in some form of repetition.
ocean relic
was the fall of reach inspired in anyway by the vietnam war? it had to be right?
vague scroll
not really? There aren't much similarities between a planet that fell in a day and a war with guerillas that lasted years
carmine sleet
The fall of/the battle of [Insert place here] is also a pretty common thing in media as well
vague scroll
indeed
ocean relic
either way, it just...reminds me if it
vague scroll
Except...
versed helm
No
modest marsh
In response to the issue of storytelling post Halo 5, are people really interested in that period of the universe?
I’d think the Covenant war or even post Halo 3 would be far more popular
vague scroll
a few, most of the ones I work with are simply too afraid to to touch it
ocean relic
"war never changed" is a quote that basically states that, no matter the era, war is war.
modest marsh
Well
vague scroll
I'm referring to MGS4.
The first line in that game is "War has changed."
It's just a joke in response to the Fallout intro.
modest marsh
It’s just that, of the things that Halo 5 did, I don’t think there’s much there worth discussing
ocean relic
tthe "war has changed" quote i think states that was is ever evolving, and will be fought in new ways (drones, robots, etc)
i think
vague scroll
You're right. I was just using it as a joke though
carmine sleet
They were just making references to different franchises, they weren't being serious
vague scroll
Halo 5 had plenty of good lore behind the scenes, its just the stuff most people don't care about.
modest marsh
Modernization of warfare, not just technologically, but economically
ocean relic
i know, im just puuting my interpertation
modest marsh
MGS’s dialogue on private armies is relevant to how war is fought today
vague scroll
Not quite the whole "conditioning children to fight endless war through video games" but yeah
Regarding Halo 5 though, the world-building and more subtle things that didn't apply to the game's plot is actually pretty interesting
modest marsh
Hopefully relevant to the Halo universe as well
vague scroll
Asterodea, an ONI-developed bioweapon on Argent Moon is a cool concept, kind of upset how it tied into Halo: Retribution though since it ended up being the idea of Forerunner Ancilla
modest marsh
Incidental background stuff, yes, but how many people are clamoring to tell stories about Fireteam Osiris after Halo 5
vague scroll
Most people aren't. Especially not among the writers I work with.
vague scroll
Well, that's not what I was referring to, my issue and the issue of many I work with is that Halo 5 created a narrative bottleneck scenario, the Created and the Guardian Custodes now create a situation where people can't do anything beyond 2558 for the most part
I've been exploring different methods to get around it though
modest marsh
I’d argue that finding those loopholes themselves add a degree of intrigue
How you can finesse the situation to work in your favor
vague scroll
Yeah but when people are already sick with the Halo 5 story, a lot of people don't want to expend the thinking power
some of the earliest options I've considered are going into deep space or finding a Forerunner macguffin that serves to counter whole thorough the Guardians can be, such as a bigger version of the stealth bubble that surrounds the Hole in the Wall system that was the focus of Bad Blood
modest marsh
Tbh nobody has even tried shooting the guardian with a noob combo
Give em the ol BXR
vague scroll
I'm told the bullets chipped the paint
modest marsh
That’s why you gotta wombo combo
vague scroll
What we must do to defeat the Guardians is build a kill ball cannon in forge
carmine sleet
Or get two sticks and a rock
vague scroll
That could maybe work since we have the loyal AIs, however, that still requires quite a bit of set up
modest marsh
You mean taking control of them as opposed to fighting them head on?
vague scroll
Got a friend who came up with a rogue AI who joined the Created before stealing a Guardian and starting her own army, leaving the Created behind - not sure how it will stand up when Infinity comes out, for now, its workable
Well, even to have them fight head to head would require you to get control of one first
modest marsh
I meant the difficulty of contriving how a UNSC force would be able to defeat a Guardian
Because that seems to be the question on everyone’s mind, but it may in fact be the wrong question to ask
It’s quite possible that the Guardians may never be directly subdued through conventional means
vague scroll
I'm of that mind
You can't beat the Guardians, better to hit the AIs since they're still regulated to their hardware confines
fair hazel
Fan stories, that's not a real issue with actual story. And a lot of stories can focus on sort of, going underground, trying to play it cool in places where there is a lot of restrictions, trying to take advantage of the 'aid' the created brings. The guardians arent in every single corner of the galaxy
be mobile, some war still rages on even with the created on the rise, certain places
343i can still tell a lot of stories
modest marsh
I don’t think you can write a story in good faith post Halo 5 without at least alluding to the situation at hand
modest marsh
I’m sure there’s a distant colony somewhere that has no idea this is happening
But would you necessarily want to write about something so disconnected from the material that you are invested in?
vague scroll
No more Sangheili Civil War, the hunt for the San'Shyuum Flotilla is now been put aside, the Blooding Years and the civil war on Dosiac can't really be explored
fair hazel
write a story in good faith, what
yes there can still be waring sangheili, more subterfuge type of stuff
vague scroll
The problem is that the Created force you to focus on it
modest marsh
Every piece of Halo fiction that takes place after Halo 5 is everyone going “oh no, Guardians”
fair hazel
fleets that are mobile and not grounded can still operate, to a more limited state
fair hazel
have you ever read or watched the returnÉ
modest marsh
Yes?
fair hazel
you do know, that takes place during the created?
modest marsh
A single ship visiting a glassed planet is extraordinarily disconnected and irrelevant to the current themes of the universe
That was relevant when the wounds of the universe were still fresh from the perspective of the audience
vague scroll
The short story regarding the UNSC Nereid also puts a dampener on stories like that because the Created can drag starships out of slipspace at almost any time they want
And the Return also could be in need of a rewrite now because it doesn't account for the Created conflict
Without concrete info on when its actually set, its hard to say whether it needs to or does not need to address Guardians
modest marsh
Does it need to necessarily? I’m unsure
vague scroll
It's set after the Created appearance, depending on if you treated it as "six years after the war's official end" or "six years after the Battle of Earth"
fair hazel
irellevant to the current themes of the universe... not all stories have to directly come into contact with a big event. Yes big events have impacts, but they're not all about that.
vague scroll
Because that could mean it happened either in 2558 or 2559
fair hazel
NO the story does not need a rewrite
vague scroll
Look, I'm just saying. I said might, not saying it needs one. Just that its a slippery slope.
modest marsh
If you want you can write stories about Majestic playing card games, but is that what people really want?
fair hazel
and the UNSC Nereid was put in that state after the AI busted out of there.
majestic playing card games wasn't set during the created for one thing,
modest marsh
I know
fair hazel
for another it is nice to have personal little stories
and if you want to come up with something, imagine harder
vague scroll
I would have to agree that Majestic's Poker Night is not an issue
fair hazel
but 343i and novelists can and have room to come up with a lot of stories
in a way, the created, their influence could also lead up to a resupply for different ideological factions
vague scroll
The issue that I'm trying to point out is that some of the big topics that were prevalent in the grace period between the HCW and the Created are now irreversibly changed and can't be explored to the same degree that was once suggested
modest marsh
It was an example of something that is mundane and unimportant, not a criticism of the story itself
vague scroll
Things like the perpetual cold war between the Swords of Sangheilos and the Unified Earth Government for example
modest marsh
Poker Night needs to exist because Majestic’s arc was unfinished
fair hazel
things have changed, but inside people, the feelings still remain
vague scroll
Well, before they slipped Buck into 5, it was supposed to be Thorne from Spartan Ops on Team Osiris
modest marsh
Yes
vague scroll
actor time-conflict
modest marsh
But now I think they’ve double downed on him being Majestic leader
modest marsh
Appearances of other Spartan Fireteams in the game rather than faceless nobodies or the complete lack of non-player Spartans would be a welcome change
digital wraith
I like that the Spartan Field Manual had Thorne's notes.
modest marsh
Even if they’re just background noise
Majestic, Osiris, Alpha Nine, Red Team, and Blue Team are all prime candidates for a decent supporting cast, even as just cameos
vague scroll
Like, its great an all, I don't really agree with how hard some fans complain about aspects of the narrative or parts of the series or lore, however, I'm not going to out right say they're wrong. In a lot of ways, their complaints are valid.
Got into a small argument with a user yesterday on Halo Nation because we didn't view the Halo Universe the same way, I like the 343i era stuff, he hates anything after 2010.
There are parts that he thinks are good like Halo Wars 2 but things like Locke being able to match the Chief or serve as a foil totally rub him the wrong way.
He doesn't like underpowered Spartans, I prefer them.
modest marsh
Is it safe to say the majority of Halo is 343i material now?
modest marsh
Locke matching Chief is in fact thematically inappropriate and goes against our understanding of his capabilities based on previous material though
vague scroll
It does go against it but it also gives the IVs a little more credence as a fighting force.
Osiris is also one of the best S-IV units as it is
I'm still not a fan of the claim that IVs are the weakest breed of Spartan when I'm of the mind that the IIIs should be the worst off.
modest marsh
Sure but it’s quite a stretch that someone of inferior physicality, training, and combat experience can be considered an equal
Locke has been a Spartan for just 2 years by that point
vague scroll
He also has his pre-Spartan resume to stand on
modest marsh
As a spy
vague scroll
He was one of ONI's top bagmen, not just a spy.
modest marsh
That doesn’t mean he knows how to throw hands, much less when there’s a few hundred kilos of power armor involved
vague scroll
He's not really a spy to be honest, more like a contract killer.
Like, he's the furthest guy you'd consider for a desk job.
modest marsh
That would mostly involve shooting people in non-combat situations
He’s not infantry
vague scroll
True, but, he's not a desk jockey either. Spy doesn't really fit his designation in the kind of way that James Bond is a "spy."
modest marsh
Whatever the case may be
vague scroll
He shouldn't have been able to match Chief, yeah I get the feeling.
modest marsh
If you want to argue who should be good at fighting, someone who’s job to actually fight people head on would be more acquainted with that style of confrontation
vague scroll
Buck would probably be the best guy for that job in Osiris
Even if he's not much of a tankish brute kind of fighter
vague scroll
I'd jokingly say resident ballerina
Or gymnast if I was being a little nicer
Quite a few people i've talked to feel that she's a Mary Sue
modest marsh
The scene would’ve been better if all 4 of them tried taking Chief on, with only a few at a time actually having room to land hits
vague scroll
I'm of the mind the Chief was trying to go easy on him before hand, it makes the scene easier to accept either way.
modest marsh
Well then they have an awkward grapple over the armor restraint
For super soldiers that can vertically leap several meters in the air and knock over tanks, they seemed to have minimal impact on one another
vague scroll
Limitations of using non-martial artist stunt choreographers probably
I believe among several scenes, that one was mo-capped
modest marsh
The game brazenly contradicts its own conceptualization of what a Spartan can and can’t do and that hurts my suspension of disbelief
vague scroll
which is understandable
modest marsh
A lot of people like to go “well look how they are in the lore” but you don’t even have to look far to see a glaring disconnect between cutscene X, gameplay, and cutscene Y
versed helm
I like to think he was showing restraint against Locke as well
vague scroll
like I said, this is one situation in the lore you'll just have to take with a grain of salt
digital wraith
I saw a pretty good post on r/Halo (shocking right) about the Chief v Locke fight.
modest marsh
Again, I’ll refer back to where they are fighting over the restraint seemingly evenly
You’d expect one or both of them to just pick up the other and throw them
digital wraith
Chief doesn't break a sweat whereas Locke is finding it difficult. Chief doesn't want to, nor is going to kill Locke. Locke realizes he's out of his league and then finally pulls out the restraining device.
versed helm
I don’t think anyone is trying to take away from Locke’s skill set, 343 gave him a very good background and there are hints of a well decorated combat portfolio but in the latter it’s just that no one else even comes close to master chief
vague scroll
Except other IIs that is
modest marsh
Decorated combat portfolio?
versed helm
Yeah but they all died
modest marsh
He has commendations for his talent in his field
vague scroll
Yeah, the guy is one of ONI's top field operatives
modest marsh
But that field isn’t combat oriented
vague scroll
Why isn't it?
versed helm
Yeah that’s what I’m saying, I’m pretty sure it is
modest marsh
I’m sure he’s seen combat but if he’s boxing his targets he’s doing an awful job
vague scroll
Field Operative pretty much means special forces.
versed helm
^^^
modest marsh
Most special forces do not practice martial arts to the extent Spartans do
A lot of it is
“Get away from your opponent so you can shoot them”
vague scroll
no one was trying to kill each other in this situation to be fair
versed helm
^^^ once again
modest marsh
Then how is this relevant to Locke who’s job is to kill people
A top agent for the Office of Naval Intelligence, Jameson Locke serves as an ONI Acquisitions Specialist, retrieving important objects held by the enemy, as well as tracking and eliminating high-value targets. Intelligent and outgoing, Locke is quick to solve a range of complicated situations as much with his brain as with his combat skills.
He’s referred to repeatedly as a hunter or hitman
modest marsh
Special forces aren’t martial arts experts though
vague scroll
They are
modest marsh
They’re really not
They practice martial arts, but there are very few people who can refer to themselves as experts in a given discipline while also being a career SF operative
versed helm
Well I just don’t agree with you that special forces doesn’t place an emphasis on hand to hand combat, these people are meant to be deadly on all levels of combat and “guns” are only an extension of the weapon themselves, the person
vague scroll
The Chief isn't a martial artist either
modest marsh
Yes he is
Spartans have a unique need of hand to hand combat skills
This is mentioned in the Field Guide
vague scroll
If I point to the Spartan Field Manual, the book says SPARTAN-IVs were also trained in several techniques as well
vague scroll
Spartan-IVs are predominantly special forces
modest marsh
Spartans are an extreme exception
vague scroll
They already have martial arts training, that extends into their Spartan training
modest marsh
Rudimentary
vague scroll
not rudimentary, they've been doing it for years as much as the Chief
modest marsh
They learn proper form on how to throw a punch and kick, but they aren’t necessarily learning certain grapple maneuvers or flying strikes
modest marsh
We’re basing this on real world martial arts practices yes?
vague scroll
Yes
Special Forces receive additional training on top of what basic training and infantry give them
modest marsh
You’re speaking from what authority here exactly?
vague scroll
former ROTC, military family
modest marsh
That doesn’t make them experts
modest marsh
Because that takes up time for other proficiencies that are more important
vague scroll
and I'm not saying I'm an expert, I'm just saying that saying they're not highly-qualified martial artists is grossily underestimating what it requires to be in special operations forces
modest marsh
We don’t fight wars with swords and spears anymore
The average marine will lose to an MMA fighter
vague scroll
Swords and spears doesn't stop people from needing to use a gun like a club or pulling a knife
versed helm
You just answered it yourself
modest marsh
It’s exceedingly rare those situations ever happen
versed helm
We’re not talking about average marines
modest marsh
Okay, a SEAL or Green Beret will still lose to an MMA heavyweight
vague scroll
The discussion originally was that Locke couldn't take Chief. I respect that belief.
modest marsh
Locke’s hand to hand skill prior to becoming a Spartan should have negligible impact on his talents after becoming one
versed helm
We’re talking about special forces, specifically a special forces member who was good enough to be considered for a spartan program, one who even stood out well enough with his prior service history to be spotlighted by ONI and made into a headhunter further more becoming the most prominent of the head hunters
vague scroll
It's since become a discussion about special forces being respectable masters in some martial arts.
versed helm
I don’t think Locke could handle chief either plane and simple
vague scroll
And no one disagreed with Mag on that
versed helm
But that’s not on Locke’s fault, it’s more so that chief is just that much more of a badass
vague scroll
We already said why the scene played out, the issue became us discussing whether Locke even is capable as a martial artist
modest marsh
Locke being a trained combatant prior to becoming a Spartan has little to no impact on his combat abilities as a Spartan is what I maintain, the bulk of his skills would’ve come from his 2 years training as a Spartan
vague scroll
I disagree fervently on that belief. As if everything he did up before becoming a Spartan is suddenly worth zilch.
modest marsh
It’s not worth zilch
vague scroll
Exactly
modest marsh
But it’s negligible
There’s more to being a good soldier than your hand to hand skills
Like shooting
vague scroll
It isn't negligible, all their knowledge and experience carries over and is expanded on upon becoming a Spartan
versed helm
Pretty sure that if he was just an average joe he wouldn’t survive the spartan program?
Isn’t the whole premise of the spartan program selecting the best candidates from an already talented pool to improve on their abilities ? @modest marsh
vague scroll
SPARTAN-IVs are fundamentally Special Forces guys first, Spartans second.
They just earned the Spartan rank after going through the transition
There is nothing negligible about it
versed helm
No but what you did imply is that prior qualifications and skill sets don’t matter? So doesn’t that defeat the purpose of recruitment process for Spartans?
modest marsh
I didn’t say that at all
versed helm
Theirs a reason all the new Spartans are Former ODSTs/ spec ops and not regular marines?
vague scroll
I should make an addendum that not all Spartans are special forces but that's not really important right now.
We're discussing the ones that are.
modest marsh
Locke practicing whatever martial arts skills he had would be a tiny fraction of the 30 odd years the Spartans have been
Moreover there is significantly less opportunity for him to utilize those skills
Unless he goes around trying to brawl people I guess
vague scroll
The Spartan-IVs are taught the same stuff that they learned as ODSTs and Army Rangers/Airborne and Marine Force Recon
vague scroll
sure, but it doesn't mean that what they already knew is usless
versed helm
No they’re not but, all Spartans we’re former special ops before training, and probably the best of the best to be able to be considered fro the program @vague scroll
Exactly^^
vague scroll
@versed helm Vale wasn't
modest marsh
It’s not useless but they would have spent less time training than they have as Spartans
vague scroll
No, training never ends for soldiers
When you're not deployed, its back to the barracks for training
versed helm
What was she before? I’m not being snarky I just genuinely don’t know
vague scroll
linguist and child prodigy
versed helm
Trained from adolescence then?
versed helm
Yeah that’s the former spartan programs right?
vague scroll
The indoctrination is just conditioning that's not really mportant
modest marsh
You’re gonna fight me on the idea that Spartans spend substantially more time training, especially their hand to hand skills?
vague scroll
all it does is form the Spartan mental state
I'm not arguing with you about the amount of time dedicated to Spartans vs the Special Forces guys
I'm disputing your claim that Special Forces guys aren't martial arts masters
The stuff the real life guys are taught is the same thing that is taught to MMA guys, their teachers are often MMA fighters actually
modest marsh
Because there’s a vast gulf between being a practitioner of relevant techniques that may or may not be useful ever and someone constantly practicing and learning new techniques
vague scroll
Some techniques like Krav Maga that are used in MMA was engineered by the Israeli defense force
versed helm
I think we can all agree chief was taking it easy on Locke, they’re just on different levels as far as skill set and experience but at the time Locke is probably the best spartan adversary that was alive to take on the chief
modest marsh
Sure, but guess who’s the best in the world at using those techniques?
The people who spend all their time practicing them
versed helm
Doesn’t mean it makes it a close fight
modest marsh
If you made up a pie chart of how special forces divide up their training regimens, how much would you say is dedicated to H2H training?
vague scroll
The special forces guys are good enough to be masters, especially when they've been doing the job for 20+ years, those that are career soldiers.
modest marsh
This ain’t it chief
vague scroll
I don't know what the divide would be but it would be around the same amount as time on the range or in a glass house
combatives are just as important as being able to shoot well, its integral in their fighting style
modest marsh
Most of modern combat is fought from a hundred meters away
How is it integral
It’s not unimportant
vague scroll
Because Special Forces aren't fighting in that distance, they fight closer
modest marsh
But it’s definitely less important than shooting
vague scroll
Room clearing, house raids
vague scroll
The gun becomes a club at those ranges
or a spear if you jam their barrel into a guy
you can make a weapon out of anything if the situation calls for it
modest marsh
You don’t plan on running into a room with the barrel in both hands
vague scroll
just because you carry a gun doesn't mean you suddenly aren't good at combatives
the gun becomes the hand-held weapon
modest marsh
That’s not the argument being made
versed helm
Think about it, you have to be as a deadly with your body as you are with a gun, because the scenario of you being without a gun or being disarmed is very plausible when your doing unorthodox forms of combat,
And yes modern combat is fought from hundreds of meters away but that’s when your a grunt, if your special forces your probably a hundred meters behind enemy lines if not doing ONI covert ops stuff
Then you have the covenant who will resort to brute force because they know they are physically superior to humans
modest marsh
Remember that time during the Osama Bin Laden operation, one of the ST6 operatives pulled out his nunchucks and beat the people to death