Here we discuss all the nitty-gritty grading stuff.
#Grading Team
soft turtle
stable crown
wawa
indigo surge
no one said anything?
tight gyro
It was a plan that was a little too early to succeed, it may be revived at some point but not right now
sharp crown
Yeah I'm interested in how we'll decide to do grading
There's a part of me that just loves this community unraveling its ethics in a mirror of real world climbing, and this wants to stick to real world grading
On the other hand, Cairn has a "canon" grading system that we could maybe expand on
I think what I'd be down for is the cairn color system being used as grade ranges, then we can use real life grading to be further descriptive?
Almost a combo of how some gyms grade and how outdoor grading works
So like yellow is 1-4, green is 5a to 5c, blue is 6a to 6b+, red is 6c to 6c+, black is 7a to 7c+, purple is 8a to 8b+, and white is 8c to 9b+
Or something I dunno I just picked randomly how to split it lol
Could split them less evenly to make it more bottom heavy and make the harder routes more rare in appearance
north monolith
Could split them less evenly to make it more bottom heavy and make the harder ro...
there are routes that are id say twice as hard as the white from the game, im still using the old grading system from the demo
visual girder
I'd actually argue that we shouldn't follow real world grading. MOST people playing this game aren't going to understand the real grading systems, and we should keep the audience in mind here. I think it might be better to just follow the 'beginner, intermediate, advanced' model with maybe a few in between. Perhaps one for the more extreme or absurd routes that come around.
tight gyro
agreed or a something like 1-10
north monolith
agreed or a something like 1-10
Thats the current metric except we realise there are climbs that are 10+ but they are extremely rare
tight gyro
Just adjust it to 1-10 lol
gritty heron
Just make the 10 louder
gritty heron
No but I think a more 'horizontal' grading system is more intuitive, aligns somewhat with the color system and gives a logical place to grow if harder routes come to be. 1-11 with +'s or -'s for specificity. Seems like a white route is like a 4 or 5 for reference.
north monolith
Just adjust it to 1-10 lol
Bit late now we have graded so many routes atp
tight gyro
inner aurora
Yeah, I’ve been a climber for nearly two decades and a gamer for longer. Putting real climbing grades on these feels a bit lame. I like what the game bakers made here. Color coded difficulty. Easy to follow. Real life grades are muddled anyway. Adding that slop to this is just egotistical. “Mine is 8+” “No mine is 9.” Just leave as is. Anything harder than white: colorless. Or just call it neon. There’s white, and neon white. Black, neon black. Idk
gritty heron
Just continuing the grading system from the demo routes, which was a simple 1-11, not real life grades. There are degrees of routes much harder than white so quantifying them on a scale that covers all the routes make sense.
inner aurora
Fair enough but going to a number system is confusing for folks on the Yosemite Decimal System. 5.7 vs 7 vs V7 vs 7…. Which is it?
I think the game bakers intentionally stepped away from this for a reason.
My two cents.
gritty heron
I don't think there's any attempt to put these routes on a real grading system. The numbers are relative to themselves so there's no real need to compare to another system, other than the color system in the game.
inner aurora
What about shades of color? Oh I guess white and black kind of blew that
Numbers it is guess.
sharp crown
Yeah, I’ve been a climber for nearly two decades and a gamer for longer. Puttin...
Yeah I definitely feel this. I waver back and forth between letting cairn just be a video game and leaning into the cheese factor
On the other hand we're already borrowing so many conventions from real life climbing, some not exactly accurately (I'm still sus on the idea of first ascent and red point being separated in what's essentially a sport route lol)
inner aurora
I thought of a decent way.
No buffs or chalk: 1-4
Chalk required: 5-7
Chalk and buffs required: 8-10
Hold recognition required: 11+
sharp crown
Interesting!
Honestly that is probably how routes will end up shaking out in the game as the meta evolves
I'm betting that mechanically some routes will be literally impossible without buffs
Still part of me loves the comedy of Cairn developing a pseudo climbing culture. I wanna see people getting mad about their routes getting downgraded lmao
inner aurora
Yeah, so for example if a route requires all things, it would be automatically 11. If then people can decide if something is harder from there. Hardest route in the should be 15–as it is in real life.
inner aurora
Still part of me loves the comedy of Cairn developing a pseudo climbing culture....
That will be soon. But I hope the toxicity doesn’t happen. Time will tell.
sharp crown
Haha yeah hopefully not real toxicity. I have faith in this community to keep it in good fun
visual girder
Just make the 10 louder
...but this one goes to 11...
gritty heron
Finally someone got it
visual girder
I gotchu , brother
inner aurora
If a route is impossible to do clean, where does aid difficulty begin? 12? Or 16 like real life?
inner aurora
Yeah so since 11 is hardest free route right now, I think aid starts at 12 and ends at 15. That’s how I’m running it.
To see the difference check out The Grandfather flake and Body Horror. A 12 and a 15
sharp crown
Aid grading begins at 16? Not sure I've ever heard it described that way haha
Id probably just leave it as its own label like irl, except we don't actually need aid grades like irl since the aid techniques don't really get more complex or dangerous in cairn
If we really wanted to get in the weeds about it we could more closely mirror irl and give routes separate grades depending on whether you're aiding it or not
Doesn't feel worth it to go down that road imo
Yeah so if you suspect something is aid-only I'd just call it an aid route, with the possibility that someone down the line may end up figuring out a way to send it, where it'd get a new grade
inner aurora
Id probably just leave it as its own label like irl, except we don't actually ne...
The Yosemite Decimal System works up to 5.15d. That is based on how steep and difficult the terrain is. There is no route rated 16 today, routes harder than 5.15d would there for be 16, but we use c1 or a1 depending on if the route is aided with cams and basic equipment that doesn’t scar the rock, or if pitons and hammers, are required. I only said 16 because it works with Cairn’s system right now. Nothing needs to change.
There is a need to grade aid. I know because I’m the only one setting them.
Body Horror is brutal compared to The Grandfather. When you run them let me k or what you think.
sharp crown
Yes I understand how yds works but aid grades don't "begin" at any specific difficulty nor do they necessarily imply a free climbing difficulty
inner aurora
Yes I understand how yds works but aid grades don't "begin" at any specific diff...
I’m trying to close the gap between life and the game. If you’d rather I called it A1 and A4 so be it, but it’s not as clean as just “12” or “15”
sharp crown
Oh no I said I DON'T want to get granular about aid grades in cairn I don't think it would make sense to
No need for it
inner aurora
Why? They’re fun. And many could be put up. It’s not granular. Is grading in general not needed then?
sharp crown
What would make the aid component of a cairn climb more or less dangerous or complex in your mind?
inner aurora
Play Body Horror and The Grandfsther
You’ll see
Body Horror is so hard it is nearly impossible even with gear. Grandfather is lesser so. I need all gear for Body Horror. I might be able to only use 5 pitons on Granddather.
sharp crown
Just to be clear I was just pointing out that irl aid grades don't imply any specific free grade, and certainly not that it's harder than 15d. Like The Nose is 14a free 5.9 C2 aid, but there are certainly even easier aid routes. So if you're thinking for cairn that aid should just be used for things that are otherwise impossible to free climb, that's already different than IRL so why not just let it be called an aid climb?
inner aurora
If I just put “aid” on all routes, someone will do one and think oh I can do all of them. That’s not the case. There’s levels
sharp crown
Gotcha
inner aurora
In real life there’s easy aid and hard aid. Here is the same
sharp crown
Kiiiinda. Aid grade is separate from the free climbing grade. So a 5.9 free climb could have a higher aid grade than a 14a free climb for example
inner aurora
A1 and A4 are difficulty and fear ratings. Lurking Fear in Yosemite is a good example
sharp crown
Body Horror is so hard it is nearly impossible even with gear. Grandfather is l...
Do you think then just amount of pitons needed would be a reasonable way to show aid difficulty here?
inner aurora
It could, but it’s not as easy as just “12 and 16”
If you know aid starts at 12, pretty easy to tell the difficulty.
sharp crown
A1 and A4 are difficulty and fear ratings. Lurking Fear in Yosemite is a good ex...
Yeah that's a good example of what I mean. Like lurking fear doesn't have any pitch graded harder than 13c but has the same aid grade as the nose which has some 14a
inner aurora
So what you want me to do?
sharp crown
Not sure I'm brainstorming!
inner aurora
At this point I don’t care but it needs a grade
sharp crown
Like do you think the principal thing that shows an aid route in cairn being harder is the amount of pitons necessary?
inner aurora
Yeah but I’m gonna put “Grade: 5 pitons” ?
sharp crown
Maybe? Like just have aid routes graded 1-5 on their own scale
Orrrr
What if you graded sections between piton placements?
Or is that too much haha
inner aurora
Body Horror is so hard you’ll need to do 50 ft runouts with all 6 pitons. Grandfather you do 10 ft runouts and only a section gets 3 right next to each other.
It’s still not a great way
I’m thinkin 12-15
sharp crown
12-15 it is then
sharp crown
Lolol maybe I'll try it out next time I'm on
inner aurora
You’ll need about 40 min of buffs and 15 chalk.
sharp crown
I haven't really been doing buff routes to begin with so like I don't really have a horse in this race
inner aurora
Well, let that break you in and then come back and tell me how to grade it lol
inner aurora
Then you’ll need to do the only other aid route that exists to scale properly…. Grandfather
😬
sharp crown
And if I call that Aid 4?
inner aurora
Then we arm wrestle for it
sharp crown
Honestly if you think about it, it's not actually much different. If you're saying >11 is aid up to 15, that's 4 aid grades. So you could call a 12 just an Aid 1, and a 15 an Aid 4, know what I mean?
Just semantics at this point haha
sharp crown
Yup
sharp crown
I only raised an eyebrow because you compared it to real life aid grades which don't work that way so I was confused at what you were trying to describe
inner aurora
Glad to have you aboard!
inner aurora
Nope. But I was nice to hear you out for 45 min
sharp crown
Very nice thanks
inner aurora
🫡
sage storm
Infusions are OP… should just exclude them, lol
lusty raptor
Truth bomb
sage storm
Infinite chalk is fiine… when have you ever run out of chalk
sharp crown
Infusions are the real cairn aid but nobody's ready to hear that
gritty heron
Infinite chalk is much more powerful than infusions
sage storm
You can hen peck those last couple lathers out of the bag
sharp crown
Infinite chalk is much more powerful than infusions
Oooo is it really?
sage storm
Chalk is like +3 and somebody got the number on Infusions
sharp crown
I feel like the stamina buff is such a game changer
sage storm
It’s the extra grip that matters with infusions… you can always find a jacked up rest spot
gritty heron
Infusions add 0.75 additional grip. Chalk adds 1.5 to both hands and feet.
sage storm
Corrected 🙇
gritty heron
Plus when you apply chalk the animation gives you a rest break. When coupled with active rest its very strong
sharp crown
Infusions add 0.75 additional grip. Chalk adds 1.5 to both hands and feet.
Good to know!
Is that additive with infusion grip?
gritty heron
The best buff from infusions seems to be the focus buff that helps limb recover
No its not additive. Max is 1.5
sharp crown
Ah gotcha
sage storm
Maybe just seems more realistic… not asking for it to be implied as required, mostly stoking debate
gritty heron
Yeah 100% I get it
I think certain routes aren't possible without some sort of buffs
sharp crown
Haha yeah I'm mostly just goofing cause I generally can't be bothered to make infusions when I'm just trying to explore and climb
gritty heron
And we shouldn't limit routes
sage storm
I have never been like oh fuck I am out of chalk… but I wish I could find an infusion
sharp crown
The more I think of it the more I feel like buffs really are the cairn equivalent of aid
In the sense that I'd like it if routes were given separate ratings for buffs or buffless
Similar to irl aiding over hard sections lowers the free climb grade
gritty heron
sharp crown
https://tenor.com/view/ah-shit-here-we-go-again-ah-shit-cj-gta-gta-san-andreas-g...
Lolol was this already a big discussion? I don't need to rehash it if that's already been settled
gritty heron
Lol yeah its been a topic for a while
sharp crown
Haha gotcha. Yeah I wasn't following that super closely earlier on
gritty heron
There's no ultimate authority so it comtinues
lusty raptor
I don’t have personal experience with them but I have seen what an ult infusion can do to a hands only smear…
sharp crown
🤷 I'm fine either way
gritty heron
Generally the consensus has been rate stuff on difficulty comprehensively and let the climber augment their own experience with buffs or not
sharp crown
Hm that sounds like eventually people will be proposing different grades for buffless regardless
sharp crown
The games still very new
Things will iron out
In the meantime, yeah, im not getting involved in suggesting grades haha
gritty heron
It will really be who's left standing and pushing their narrative.
sharp crown
Yuuuup I feel you
gritty heron
I think suggesting a difficulty should be encouraged to help new players acclimate. Trying to think about how we best serve the community as a whole
Calibrating what's considered easy vs hard is important for that point, imo.
sharp crown
Which also will be all over the place at this stage in the game
Who knows what techniques people may figure out in the future as well
Things will change
Have there even really been grade disputes much yet?
I think I saw one mild one lol
lusty raptor
Only a bit, but most people haven’t been putting grades—probably for the reason of not wanting a dispute
Mainly talk of how the grade system works, one person has an idea, grades their route that way, and someone comes over and says nuh uh
gritty heron
Yeah there have been a few downgrades as folks are calibrating.
sharp crown
I mean it feels like most things aren't even really being repeated to begin with. Just scrolling around the routes most don't have comments
lusty raptor
That’s true, only like the top ones have probably ever had a second ascent
Unless it was a disputed route for fa by two people
sharp crown
Right
gritty heron
There's was/is some contention on routes overlapping and whether that's a new route or a variant and who gets credit eitc.
sharp crown
Oh yeah I'm familiar with those disputes lmao
lusty raptor
It’s very hard to go through and do routes because they’re just all over the place, and the only description of their location is the nearest save point, nothing about which wall or where exactly
sharp crown
It’s very hard to go through and do routes because they’re just all over the pla...
Yeah the barrier to entry is a little high. You kinda need a baseline understanding of the map
Honestly some kind of save editor or "creative mode" where you can place aava in different areas would do a lot to help with that
Fingers crossed on the expedition mode
sage storm
I think suggesting a difficulty should be encouraged to help new players acclima...
This
Somebody should find the easiest ways up… would balance the available maps, plus tons of easy routes to claim for the fame seekers, lol
sharp crown
Haha tbh I'd be down for that
I really enjoy cruising easy stuff in cairn. Very meditative.
I like finding easy, fun lines
I just assume the speedrunners will iron that out faster than anyone else
gritty heron
Speeds will choose the fastest line which has already moved away from the easiest in lots of spots. They seem to have a fairly high fail chance because this but trade that for very quick times if successful
sharp crown
Yeah fair point
Well maybe I'll cruise around a little tomorrow and start suggesting easy routes. It just feels weird trying to claim a "first ascent" on routes that thousands of players in and out of this server have certainly climbed lol
I'll call them... "First Named"
gritty heron
"Don't see anyone else claiming this green ladder bro"
sharp crown
Lmao exactly
"When you first load the game you'll see a little gym wall in front of you. I call this one... Route 1"
First ascent: me, dammit
No buffs no pitons
inner aurora
Infinite chalk is fiine… when have you ever run out of chalk
All the time. I think having what we used displayed is a nice touch. People can use buffs up until they feel like they want to try it cleaner. I would wager 30 of my 50 routes require buffs to complete.
inner aurora
It’s very hard to go through and do routes because they’re just all over the pla...
I try to be detailed! 😔
inner aurora
Lmao
You win. I ran into an issue I didn’t think about with my grading system. One of the routes I have is possible to do free by bailing at where the aid begins, therefore it gets two ratings. It can’t read 9 And 12. That’s confusing. So I went with 9 (A2).
hushed tangle
hi @inner aurora : )