#Kills should give ranked points?

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

golden seal
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I'm not sure whether it does already, but should kills give ranking points in ranked like some tournaments do?

woeful pawn
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There’s pretty mixed opinions on whether rank should reward placement and kills, just placement, or just winning

spiral meteor
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Whether or not kills should be worth ranking points are heavily dependent on the settings IMO. For most settings it’s a no for me.

  • For the most common settings: Classic Fixed. For the most part this would make suiciding for 2nd place even more of a problem than it is now. We see this in tournaments a lot too. People would rather get 2nd and a kill points wise than risk getting 3rd and no kill. And for the most part on these settings making a kill isn’t exactly high skill. Everyone’s troops are all in one place. All you have to do is have slam your troops into them and you can probably kill them. The skill in Classic fixed is managing to stay alive and work with your opponents (which is rewarded with the current system).

  • For standard progressive games: The main point of this game mode is to chain kills. So rewarding kills would just be further rewarding the player who got 1st. Not much point in that.

  • For 70% games: not a super popular game mode in ranked. Making kills in this game mode can definitely be skillful and worth rewarding with points. But it could also increase the length of the game if players are looking for kills instead of just running the 70 without it. IMO just kind of takes away from the point of the game mode (running the 70). Making kills isn’t supposed to be the main objective.

  • For Zombies. I think this is the game mode where rewarding kills makes the most sense. There’s not going to be much chaining of kills usually so you’re not just further rewarding first place. There’s not going to be many suicides for 2nd and a kill because the zombies in the way. And making kills is difficult because of the zombies themselves.

  • For Caps. No real issues with rewarding kills in this mode either. Caps help to reduce the risk of suicide. And it takes quite a bit of skill to card block someone and make kills especially in the meta settings. I just don’t think it adds a whole lot here. It’s not like players need more motivation to make kills. And you potentially have problems where players are refusing to end the game without being able to make that last kill

iron sigil
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@spiral meteor kinda aced it there....

charred nimbus
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Several people disagree with Ace on this one. Making kills advances the game, and avoids stalemates. I believe it should be rewarded. Not a lot, but something. Currently, it is not rewarded at all.

wraith grail
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There is way too much emphasis on advancing the game, the emphasis should be on winning the game

charred nimbus
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To win the game, the game needs to be advanced. Otherwise, the game is determined by who has the most time to play, not by who has the best strategy to win the game.

wraith grail
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I see a lot of people who would rather "advance" a game into a losing position than actually try and win the game. Patience is an aspect of the game

charred nimbus
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Oh, I agree with that as well. But, if a game has reached a stalemate point, advancing the game is necessary, and without advancing the game, Risk can easily become a game of who has more time available at the moment, instead of who is the more skillful player. As my longest game is just under 8 hours long… I think I have plenty of patience. But as a responsible adult, is it fair to expect players to have 8 hours of patience to “earn” the win. Or maybe a compromise is the best approach, that kills are rewarded after “x” hours of gameplay…. That way you avoid rewarding a noob slam, but acknowledge that at some point, progressing the game is necessary as Risk isn’t supposed to be an endurance sport.

wraith grail
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Then there are also people perfectly willing to play 4 30 minute games, but draw the line at one 2 hour game. But for giving rank points for kills, I think it incentivises the wrong things. I thought people wanted risk where everyone is trying to win

charred nimbus
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Sadly Carter, sometimes based upon spawn luck, dice luck, or opponent luck, you can’t win every game no matter how skillful you are. We all know this… so you are correct that in a perfect world, everyone would play optimally for they themselves to win. However, if you think that happens in all games, you are an optimistic person. You know the reality just as I do, each game is its own thing, based upon the spawn, dice, opponents and whatever else is going on impacting the players in the game. Such is the game of Life… I mean, such is the game of Risk.

spiral meteor
# charred nimbus Several people disagree with Ace on this one. Making kills advances the game, an...

Could you provide some reasoning for this? The only thing I have seen you say is that adding a kill bonus would help advance the game.

In tournaments there are usually bonuses for making kills, and stalemates still happen. Ok specifically, how would a kill bonus help to prevent stalemates in EU adv prog caps (the most popular rank up settings)? It’s caps so you can’t just kill someone. And if you have the ability to cardblock a player and kill them, you already will, so how will anything change with a kill bonus?

I also disagree with the statement that “it is not rewarded at all”. It 100% is. If you make a kill you get hundreds of points in your final positioning.

charred nimbus
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Well, unless we both have data that neither of us have access to, I don’t think you can draw a solid conclusion either way. Data needed, length of each tournament games based upon rulesets that have a reward for making kills to having all of the data for the exact same rulesets without a bonus for kills. Not enough data for either one of us to actually draw a solid conclusion. Other than that, it’s just your speculation vs mine.

spiral meteor
charred nimbus
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In your opinion.

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I respectfully disagree.

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Oh, and it is okay to disagree…

spiral meteor
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That’s not an opinion. There’s hundreds of videos on YouTube showcasing the meta settings. I would love for you to find even ONE where players have the ability to make kills and choose not to.

charred nimbus
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I have done it, so I don’t need to see it on YouTube.

spiral meteor
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Ok so you’re going to make a baseless claim rather than providing evidence. Makes sense

charred nimbus
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Especially early game when making a kill is not profitable.

spiral meteor
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If you can make a kill at all it’s profitable in the meta settings

charred nimbus
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Again, that is your opinion. Not a fact.

spiral meteor
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It is a fact. Proven by every video on YouTube

charred nimbus
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Just because you have these opinions Ace, does not make it a fact. Sorry to say…

spiral meteor
charred nimbus
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Many times, taking a kill in prog caps is worthwhile and beneficial. That is a true statement, that being said there are times when making a kill in prog caps games are not beneficial for lots of reasons. If you can’t think of those reasons (and I already game you one if it is especially early in the game and the “kill” is not profitable) then it can be beneficial to wait to kill someone until it is profitable. Pete does this all the time on his videos “waiting” until someone has enough cards to make it worthwhile to make the kill. And that is only one example. If you haven’t seen that happen on Pete’s channel, you really don’t watch that much… it happens, a lot.

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Oh, and there are other instances as well… that is one example.

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However, I admit, that mine statement above is my opinion, and you don’t have to agree… just as much as what you wrote is YOUR opinion, and I don’t have to agree that every kill is beneficial in prog caps.

spiral meteor
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Waiting until someone has enough cards to set you is not something that would change depending on if you get bonus RP or not. It’s simply a good play. You know how I know that’s a fact? Because Pete still made that kill didn’t he? Which means RP were not a factor in his decision to take that kill.

Here’s an opinion though, if he had taken that kill right away when it wouldn’t have set him in, because he didn’t want to risk not getting the RP, that would be a bad play and be a detriment to the game. Any system where players are making decisions inside the game based on outside factors, is a bad system.

I have never said that adding a kill bonus would be bad in every instance. But I think there’s a lot more settings where it would take away from the ranked gameplay rather than add to it. And the meta settings are a perfect example of how it wouldn’t add anything to it. I also think tournament organizers lean far too heavily on alternative scoring methods (like kill bonuses) or win conditions to make bad settings more viable, rather than just using good settings (another opinion). As I stated originally, I do think certain game modes would benefit from a kill bonus (zombies and 70% mainly). But people don’t play those enough in ranked for me to want to add this system to ranked

charred nimbus
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1st, thanks for admitting when you are stating your opinions. I appreciate that. There have been times in Pete’s video’s when he doesn’t always get a kill as he is trying to cultivate enough cards to make it profitable. There are other examples when it is not beneficial (especially early game) when you can kill someone, but the trades would not make it advantageous to do so, so making that kill and overextending yourself would make you next to be killed. There are several examples of times in a prog caps game when making a kill is not beneficial. Usually, it is, but sometimes it isn’t. Anyways, I never play zombies, so I have no opinion pro or con on that one. And as I have said before, it is okay for us to disagree on our opinions on this matter. As they are only our opinions! I doubt I am convincing you to change yours and vice versa. Agree to disagree.

tepid cargo
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So let me point out a few problem with kills giving ranked points.

  1. Points must come from somewhere, so getting eliminated early into the game will cost you even more points.
  2. It would cause stalling (delaying gameplay) to game modes that are not world dom. Why is that? Well if cap running gives me x points but killing all players gives me x+1 point I might try to get that +1, even if that means I wait for ages for someone to move to a cap that is in a position where I can kill them with my last hit.