Are screen shots of a fog game or on screen or on paper notes cheating?

[cedar knoll]

I don’t think so. Running an external program able to predict cap locations or opponents fog moves would be external aid and would clearly be cheating. But the mere usage of onscreen notation software (that anyone can get for free and is no different than jotting down notes on paper) is not cheating and is no where near that line.

But I’m interested in what others think ( @mental pawn has made it clear he thinks it is a cheat).

Btw I asked the question previously specifically about screen shots months ago

[humble panther]

I don't like people using it, but you can easily play as good without it so I don't really mind it

[cedar knoll]

I think the fact that some risk content creators use on screen notation helps immensely with making the game play clear and understandable and much more accessible to viewers and I find the notion that it offers any unfair advantage to be a little absurd. As a mobile player I could write on my screen with a dry erase marker or make notes on a paper copy of the map for the same effect and neither of those would be cheating by any stretch of imagination. My thought is that If the use of an external program as simple as screen notes is cheating as kylted claims then all streamers and you-tubers are cheating through the simple act of running software for video capture (which itself could be claimed to offer several advantages). I think this is obviously absurd.

I am aware that fair play is a sensitive subject and differences of opinion at the edges of what is and isn’t cheating are normal. But it worries me when the influential bright lights of the game push narratives that could easily be writ into law by SMG.

To be clear this concern is coming from me a mobile player who couldn’t use an onscreen aid even if I wanted to. Are there any visually impaired risk app users who use descriptive aids to know what is happening on screen or other accessibility related externals that would be effected by a ban on external programs?

Anyway I don’t think notations onscreen even offers any unfair advantage let alone the extreme of counting as cheating* but I am open to having my mind changed.

*If interested I can try to explain my thoughts on the difference between unfair advantage and cheating.

[wild sky]

If you use a pencil and paper to record caps or as some other memory aide, you're not a cheat, but you're definitely a sweat

[wintry birch]

What about checking dice odds or cap odds from an external site during a game?

Interestingly there’s no direct reference to external tactical aids (like screenshots, dice odds etc.) in the fairplay rules

[wild sky]

(let's keep it that way) the discussion isn't about what the rules are, but rather about what they morally ought to be.
Knowing dice and cap odds seem perfectly normal and fair to be able to look up externally imo. Sure looking them up on the fly during the game again sounds like unnecessary effort, but it wouldn't/shouldn't be cheating.

[jagged helm]

Any external help is allowed during your game. Just no ingame help (being in the same lobby in public games). I asked about that before, and I think Luci answered that. Otherwise every streamer would have to be banned, as soon as anyone says anything about the game in chat. I think the discussion was about coaching people during ranked games.

[cedar knoll]

Oh yeah if the grand master I live with wasn’t coaching over my shoulder I’d still be a novice at risk. But soliciting shot advice from the crowd is cheating in golf 🤔

I don’t know how I feel about streamers using the input of their chat followers to dictate their in game choices. Since the players I see doing it are all good enough that the advice is worse than what they would come up with themselves and they only go along with it to make more engaging content… I don’t think it is exactly a fair play issue.

[hardy dagger]

Luckily the fair play rules also don't mention letting the GM roommate just play on your account. (Also, rule 3 and 6 could be interpreted quite ambiguously, when it comes to Hydra play.) Edit: @jagged helm cool, didn't remember 😆

[jagged helm]

#help_from_community message you can scroll up for like 5 messages to get context. I knew I had this discussion before 😄

[cedar knoll]

Well yes there is the rub… letting a GM play using my account would be cheating in my judgement but soliciting their advice is just conversation or coaching which is not against the rules of ranked and also seems fair play in my judgement. (BTW…I don’t really live with a GM or do I… In my bifurcated brain… here somewhere maybe there lives… a GM)

Thirty GMs also all gang braining a game while be super cool, but it would not be fair play if done secretly… again just in my opinion (but I don’t feel as strongly about that one).

Would “thirty GMs Gang Brain this game” be the best kind or the worst kind of click bait video title?

[jagged helm]

Btw this idea came up when I read through certain tournament rules. It said no communication with any other participants and no streaming, it did not specify no input from other people in general 😄 But it got us an answer for ranked games too. I count that as a win.

[cedar knoll]

“Backseat Gamer” is a YouTube channel* where RISK GMs take turns guest hosting. They draw on the screen both analyzing and advising and sometimes just sitting back and letting the guest player make there own choices and then saying what the pluses and minuses of the moves they make are.

*that I made up, but it would be cool

[tribal vigil]

An additional thing to consider is that having 50+ players be able to give advice doesn't necessarily mean it's good advice, nor does it mean that it's the right advice for that specific situation. Arguably having extra eyes on your game can result in disrupting gameplay too (too many directors for a scene comes to mind) - and you can end up more indecisive than you were to start with.
Still have the 'play safe' Vs 'take the risk' sides that will never have a clear winner, as the risk is not good long term to use but playing safe all the time is also not good long term - having to decipher that (and deal with hundreds of viewers chiming in with stuff) isn't something I'd like at all (disable chat -> just play) for me 😄

[gloomy merlin]

I know @wintry birch alluded to this but I actually think that some of this stuff should be addressed in the fair play rules. Theres a lot of tools out there that most players don't have access to. These can be disconnection (or connection) maps, zombie pathing maps, odds calculators, etc. These tools can severely effect your chances of winning in the game. The VAST majority of players in this game don't even know what these are much less where to find them or how to use them. Now obviously when you are playing Classic Fixed outside tools aren't going to do much. But when you get to other gamemodes like 1v1, zombies, or caps, these tools start to actually matter. These tools create an advantage. Whether its unfair or not I'm not sure. There's really no way to stop players from using these tools as most have been created by players as a result of hours of hard work, but maybe SMG could find a way to make these tools more available, or at least say that these tools are fair game so I don't feel bad when all my stacks survive the zombies because I have the pathing map and nobody else in the game does. As far as screenshotting goes that feels completely fair because everyone can do it and having a good memory can accomplish the same thing.

[jagged helm]

Your logic of knowing stuff could also apply to pathing maps. Or dice calculators. Most people that play BB know 4v1 is a 100%, but at which point would you consider a calculator to be an "unfair" advantage.

[gloomy merlin]

This is true. But knowing the odds for a 973 cap roll is not common knowledge. Most players would need to take their stack and select the territory with the cap in order to see the odds. This would piss the opponent off or at least let them know that their cap is a target and they better beef it up or they will lose it. Even then if they don't have 100% odds there's no way they can figure that out in game so they would just have to keep coming back and checking. I can do all of that without ever tipping them off because I have access to calculators. There's also calculators that will allow you to calculate how many troops you need for a 100% odds on a chain of territories, which is also impossible in game. Nobody is using a calculator for 4v1 but they are using it which means that at some point it creates an advantage right?

[tribal vigil]

imo it's not much different from studying a map in a FPS or reading a wiki or fandom about something in an MMORPG - sure, the resources are out there for anyone - if you're really interested in learning all about a game's inner workings you'll be looking for it purely out of interest anyway, if not then that's a conscious decision too

It'd be like pointing to a Wiki during character creation for each character type - you might have base stats but don't know about what unique skills/abilities are best.

Most people will pick one that catches their attention / best embodies what they're wanting to do (stealth / combat / ranged - as examples)
On a Wiki it may have a 'rating' given to all of the powers/abilities of each character class, and provide 'easiest to level up' vs. 'most balanced for gameplay' vs. 'meta in PVP' - it doesn't mean that 99% of players will be interested to look for it, there will still be some that do - but you can choose to research a game and read subreddits / posts etc. about what others have learned about a game or enjoy it for yourself and find out some things along the way

[gloomy merlin]

I mean I agree. None of these tools are created outside of some research and hard work. I just think the difference is that most information for other games are readily available. A google search and some slight reading/watching a video will tell me the things I need to know. For this game most of the tools are sort of hidden. They are on private discords where you need to know people to get an invite. You can't just google and find the pathing maps. Same for disconnection maps, especially ones where you can add blizzards and portals. Sure you can get a dice calculator online but even those are missing features that the ones on discords have. In addition this knowledge isn't like character strengths and weaknesses. Nobody is sitting in Ukraine because they like Ukraine. They are sitting there because they think its the best place to be. But I have the zombie pathing map so I actually know where the best place to be is. So thats why I say it creates an advantage that other players don't have. A motivated player who attempts to learn and research the game to get better still wouldn't have access to these tools. And since its players making these tools on other discord servers I'd imagine even you don't have access to a lot of these tools, which is kind of wild to think about. I hope that makes sense

[jagged helm]

The game promotes this discord server, which can forward you to all that info, and a dice calculator is even linked by smg in the game.

[fierce lantern]

its weird that this has blown up so hard. memorization of the board state is a necessary skill in fog games. anything that makes that easier seems quite against the point of having fog. calling it cheating or not is debateable, but its painfully obvious that shruging it off as not an issue at all is a little yikes

[tribal vigil]

True, but if I wanted to find them I'm sure I could ask nicely in #risk_strategy or #risk_rank and get pointed in the right direction, as Hokaras mentioned we do already point to the discord (alongside content creators with streamer featuring in-app) which both give more access / knowledge too - but it's all still optional stuff, you don't have to ever visit Twitch or Youtube or Discord or Facebook (and miss out on the super cool RISK map cake?? no way!)

[gloomy merlin]

Thats all fair and true. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think the knowledge that these tools exist should be more open. At a minimum a short post on your website in the FAQ or something that describes these tools and the fact that they exist. A further step would be SMG should work with the players that are making these tools to have them on the main server/website. In game or discord rewards I'm sure would go a long way for these players to share their hard work. Currently players have no incentive to share the tools they create because they only get an advantage if not everyone has access to them. I don't think that these tools create an unfair advantage, I just think they are VERY difficult to get access to. The current method of having to rely on invites to the "secret club" feels weird to me

[hardy dagger]

It appears to me that there might also be a feeling that certain tools are sort of "secret", which makes people feel like it might be viewed upon as cheating, making the creators less willing to share the tools publicly. For example, why is the logic behind zombie pathing not just shared by SMG? Of course you can just figure it out, but it takes a lot of effort. When people ask about it in a Q&A, it only results in very vague answers, creating a setting as if they've discovered something secret. Same for cut-off for dice estimates, used estimation technique, card distributions, maps connections, etc. etc. etc.

[cedar knoll]

I am pleased to see this question get some traction. A bunch of interesting thoughts for me to process.

But for now prompted by @hardy dagger most recent comment:

Even casinos make instructional videos on how to play the games and most are very honest so that if you pay attention you quickly know exactly how the game tilts the odds in the casino’s favor. Even they want you to know how to play the game despite it seemingly being disadvantageous to their bottom line (surely some people once they know the odds choose not to play). I’m just playing along with what you wrote but: “what does SMG have to hide? Why aren’t the secrets of the game made clear to all users?”

I think more transparency is usually better, but I don’t think that access to the secrets of risk is very hard. If I found balanced blitz and capital roll odds charts and pathing maps then I think almost anyone can. In terms of SMG sharing more info that might be good, but it may be that they are afraid of letting the genie out of the bottle so to speak in that I suspect if you looked too hard into zombie pathing and attack numbers for example you might find that it is a solved game like tic-tac-toe and not the rampaging menace that a first look gives the impression of. Maybe they don’t want to kill the magic.

Then of course the most likely explanation is simply that is is time consuming and expensive to effectively share information and SMG already seems over taxed as is. Do we really want them creating in depth explanations of the inner working of the games mechanics for public consumption that would only appeal to a small number of players anyway or would we rather just have access to some raw data and continue to rely on the discord community etc. to process and analyze that data and synthesize an understanding of the workings of the game?

[hardy dagger]

Well, I would say that I can understand you might wanna keep some stuff of the game secret, but that raises the question if reverse engineering that leans to cheating (I don't think most friends would appreciate it if you bring a calculator to OTB Risk); if not why not make it publicly available for all players? Multiple people have told me they don't wanna share a tool they've worked on publicly, since this is unclear.

So for sure, it might be easy to find pathing maps and cap roll odds now, but if the players who put those online take them off, it's pretty hard for most players. Creating a pathing map is a lot of work. Surely I can't let a bot play Risk for me online. But am I allowed to make a bot that plays to make a pathing map for me in less time? (Or my own AI advisor?). I do agree that it changes the game a bit, so it's good to know what should be allowed; but my impression now is that basically anything should be allowed, if the fair play rules don't explicitly forbid it (so how about the bot again? 😬 ). SMG sharing raw data from their code, would already save players making those tools a ton of time, with basically no added effort for the developers.

The space of actions you can take during a game is so big, add the uncertainty and I'm not really afraid for a solved game. Imo, most tools are mainly useful to quickly get a better understanding of how most in-game stuff works (probabilities are hard to grasp), rather than use them to guide all your decisions, but that might be different for someone else of course.

[fierce lantern]

since you bring up AI ... its actually not too far off in time where it could be pretty commonplace that any average joe could set up image recognition.

writing things down and memorizing the board in fog is one thing. potentially having an AI taking screencaps to collect the data showing up on screen and parsing it to display ... anything really. one person could create this foro themselves and have an insane advantage. or distribute it and cause all kinds of balanceish problems

after that part, its not even really AI. its just data analysis. it could easily track how many troops people are getting each turn, and guess at what bonuses they have and territory count. while marking an overlay with a color to show their relative location and any 'last known locations' you saw before losing vision

it could remember troop counts and keep track of how big territories are since you last saw them, maybe estimate how much bigger with their known reinforcements.

have dice odds come up on the fly every time you go to attack,

watch bot behavior and notify you of their personality and likely places to attack

and this would all be totally legit by the rules o.o

[gloomy merlin]

I think its fair to say we are a little ways off most of this...but not as far as most would think. Players are already using image recognition to make these maps. Going from premade maps to in game data analysis isn't that big of a stretch. And again I think the current problem is not that those tools could or do exist, but rather only a few have access to them. And I do think SMG should put limits in the rules as to how far we can go. For instance I think a bot overlaying the correct pathing in order to make a kill would be too far, but its not against the rules currently. Or what about an overlay for the amount of troops/pathing necessary for 70%? that would destroy the current tournament systems. Again not against the rules. The tools created already create an advantage. Where's the line where it becomes an unfair advantage?

[fierce lantern]

thats why it really needs to be a flat 'no outside utilities' to stay fair. or explicitly have exceptions that are ok

[cedar knoll]

Well this sounds like exactly what a good players brain is doing in a fog game or a 70% game anyway. What is the difference in terms of fair play between being talented at doing that analysis in your head or on paper next to your game or on a piece of software that you are running to the side? The problem is a matter of degree. If that software is no longer just a place for you to study information and make a decision but is making the decisions for you then I think we might have a fair play issue on the magnitude of a bit of unfair advantage, but I still don’t think it would be cheating.

[gloomy merlin]

I think chess is a good comparison here. You can't use outside tools to help you figure out the best move in a chess game. The best players are rewarded because they can figure it out in their heads. Having a computer or bot or anything else takes away from the natural ability that players have to be good at the game or the hard work they have put into practice and instead makes it more tool based

[fierce lantern]

whether its "cheating" or not really doesnt matter. that is just defined by the rules. if the rules dont say its against the rules, then its allowed. but that doesnt make it fair just because it isnt explicitly not allowed. the question is really one about fairness. and to stay fair, the default stance should be that external tools are not allowed unless otherwise stated. and SMG needs to clarify that sort of stuff before it gets to be an issue. even if its unenforceable ... there should be clarity of what is and isnt allowed

[cedar knoll]

Why should that be the stance? Any externals that are available to one pa,her are presumably available to another unless you are talking about income inequality… that is indeed unfair. But the fact that one risk player can afford a high end computer and insanely fancy mouse and another can’t is also unfair, but they sure aren’t cheating or are they? Careful with your desire for more rules. Ban all externals and you ban accessories that are for accessibility for those with disabilities etc. … oh no I know the solution make more rules with exceptions for those programs and devices but not others and on and on.

You want rules even if they are unenforceable ?!!! Those are called suggestions. Let’s just write a blanket one to cover everything. Here’s the first draft “play fair, have fun”

[cedar knoll]

The manipulation of ideas in the form of words concepts or abstracted images in our heads is a form of tool usage.

Play risk, tomorrow without using the tool of language or the concepts of numbers and see how far your natural talent takes you. 🤣

[tribal vigil]

It also isn't too much different from if you have hyperthymesia or eidetic memory - if you watch a million GM chess games over the course of a year, then play chess - and can recall with near-absolute precision - should you be banned from competing?
You'd assume not, but in terms of casinos, things like card counting is banned - because you have a massive edge over others - if you have a very statistics oriented brain then you're card counting in the background subconsciously and don't even need to think about it, as a result you can be quickly banned from casinos

[cedar knoll]

I don’t think casino bans are about removing people with advantage over others so much as eliminating players who might through superior play cut into the casino’s margins. 😩

I don’t have to count cards… there are 52 in every deck.

Perhaps risk needs to introduce a seven deck shoe for maps such as small world to avoid these card counting cheats 😂. I want to get at least eight wild cards in a row in my next game. Quick, what are the odds of that? Remember Don’t use any external aids!

I hope that SMG has preserved some advantage for the house. I’d hate for ya’ll to go out of business just because little old me won a risk game,

[tribal vigil]

Yeah but counting cards is regarding keeping track of all cards that you've seen used Vs what will be left in the deck (arguably anyone could to an extent - as you see 4 kings, not going to see a 5th)

[fierce lantern]

card counting is usually more specific than memorizing what cards have shown up. and it has to be a 2 person operation to have any chance of success without being instantly caught. because one person suddenly changing their betting style when they have an edge is a MASSIVE RED FLAG

so you need one person at a table betting minimum bids, over and over, basically only 'counting' the ratio of face cards to non face cards. if that ratio gets sufficiently high then they secretly signal their partner to join the table and start betting the large amounts. literally colab XD and win or lose, thats gonna be a no no

[wild sky]

But there's not actually any rules against changing your bids as you please. Yet if you do so and win enough money you will be asked to leave.
The reason that the idea is collaborative is because you were counting cards i.e. "cheating" (it's only disallowed because it exploits an edge for the players), counting cards isn't banned, exercising an edge is.

Perhaps a better comparison would be a game that is against other players, rather than with the house, say poker games, where knowledge of cards played and event probabilities are often memorized and encouraged.

[gloomy merlin]

I agree that poker is a better comparison than black jack. But again someone being smart and good at the game is not what we are arguing about here. There's a difference between having knowledge of event probabilities and being able to look it up in the middle of the hand right? If you're playing competitive poker you can't have a bot tell you your best move based on the probabilities and your hand. In Risk there's a difference between someone being skilled and experienced so they know where the zombies are going to attack, and having a zombie pathing map that nobody else in the game has.

Another example would be I play a lot of 1v1s on Boston so I know the best territories to pick. There's a difference between that and joining a 1v1 game on Jules Verne, where I don't have much experience, but I have the disconnection map that my opponent doesn't have so I can pick territories better than him. One of these situations is me winning because I have more experience and skill. The other is me winning because I have access to resources that my opponent doesn't.

[cedar knoll]

It might seem unfair if one player has made or acquired a pathing map and another started playing yesterday, but it is also seems unfair that some players have access to better computers, better natural talent, the free time to play hours of risk a week, etc. Life is unfair. None of that is cheating. Whether the information is in your mind or on a pathing map is irrelevant. Life is an open notes exam.

Winning due to more experience and skill is just winning because you have access to the resources and luck to acquire more experience and skill. Having access to resources that your opponent doesn’t have or doesn’t have access to isn’t cheating it is preparation. If your opponent wants to improve their game then they too need to prepare to play at the highest level.

If we want to have a no notes tournament then that would be the rules for that tournament but good luck trying to enforce that generally in all online play. Why would you want to anyway?

[gloomy merlin]

See youre assuming that because the problem cant be stopped, its therefore not a problem. I disagree. I just think the solution is to make tools more available for everyone.

I have never once stated that natural talent, more time to play/experience, etc is cheating or unfair. So I have no idea why you keep bringing that up. I've been saying the opposite of that. All of that is super fair. What I do think is unfair is restricted access to information and resources.

Even you don't have access to some of the player made tools that I do. And you're an active member of the discord community. That should tell you the level of secrecy and privacy that some of these tools have.

There's no reason that these tools can't be on the main discord or somewhere affiliated with SMG so that players have equal access to them. That's all I'm saying. But as Jack pointed out SMG doesn't reveal any information about how certain things work inside the game, so when players reverse engineer it, they keep that information close at hand because SMG acts like that information shouldn't be known by the players. This is very confusing.

[tribal vigil]

It also brings up another complication - the person that made it learned through experience - whereas others that use it do so through resources provided by the author of it

So if you make it yourself it's something you've done from your own experience & through playing / learning nuances - using it without having made it yourself is not.
One seems more reasonable than the other right? But not sharing it can also be considered an unfair advantage too.

Really tough line either way imo

[jagged helm]

Yes I'm such a bad person for teaching others the stuff I know about the game, and even worse share the data that I collected in the most public place that the game has. I should really say get gud and play the game to every newer player.

[wintry birch]

I always learn a lot about the map, in the process of making zombie pathing for it

[cedar knoll]

No. I’m not assuming that. I’m saying it isn’t cheating and isn’t more unfair than everything else about the game AND also that stopping it would be very difficult anyway.

I agree that making more tools available to more players is a good thing.

I keep bringing up natural talent etc. being unfair because they are unfair. They are unfair in the same way that having access to a map is unfair. And I think it is important to consider this. Claiming one player has an unfair advantage is made silly when you realize that every possible player has some unfair advantage over any other player. Everyone has something going for them that another doesn’t.

Making as even a playing field as possible by for example sharing maximum access to available info as widely as possible is a great idea but hampering people’s exploration of the intricacies of the game by saying they can’t use their work product or share their work product seems akin to saying a great athlete has an unfair advantage because of their superior leg strength therefore they must wear ankle weights during competition and also can’t share their work out secrets with other athletes… you know… to make everything nice and “fair”.

[gloomy merlin]

Yeah I want people to explore the intricacies of the game. I want those zombie pathing maps to exist. I want those dynamic disconnection maps to exist. I just want them to exist for everyone. And I think SMG can help this happen in more ways than 1. For example they could help clarify the zombie pathing logic. That would help make the zombie pathing maps much easier. When I say I want SMG to address these in the fair play rules I’m saying I want them to distinguish what is fair and what’s not. For example, a screenshot of starting spots would be fine. A zombie pathing map would be fine. Having AI plot the path to kill someone or take the 70% would be too far. It’s already been stated that macros for your mouse so you can fortify faster is against the rules, and there’s no way to enforce that, so why not this stuff too

[cedar knoll]

Well obviously the limitation on mouse macro thing is ridiculous if SMG actually took the time to issue a ruling about that… since they should actually be spending any available time just correcting the fortify interface so that numbers can be selected near instantly without any scrolling at all.

Oh wait I’m sorry. I was thinking it was a strategy game but actually it is a scroll wheel game, so I withdraw my comment 😔

[gloomy merlin]

Yes we are all in agreement about that as well. A simple change that would greatly improve the user experience