Barrack Unit Changes (Levels 1-23)

[azure elm]

I’m only doing this level range as I’ve had personal experience with these units and some have had lackluster performance, even in their niches.

Shock Trooper - Increase offense of Burst Fire by 5 at all levels. Increase crit chance of Controlled Burst to 15%.

Google Doc to updated changes:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d5L9sMuc0uDzuRusGlgS7Nw0hk6Z8Zb6jaIbWbGQJsk/edit?tab=t.s1e8i89d5gq6

These changes should help the Shock Trooper reach its full capacity for damage more often. Also seems strange that the Wimp’s erratic spray is just as accurate as the Shock Trooper’s attack.

Arsonist/Grenadier - Firestarter/Incendiary Grenade - Increase damage by 4 at all ranks and DOT by 2 at all ranks. Arsonist specifically could have 20% crit vs Critters on its Firestarter.

These changes should help both fire grenades early game actually have uses. It will also give the Arsonist a Niche use compared to the Grenadier’s versatility.

Arsonist - New attack only vs Defenses, Conflagrate: Same stats as Firestarter with 100% crit and 35% armor piercing. Shares cooldown and ammo with Firestarter.

This change should help the Arsonist live up to its name and provide a use for it against early Defenses.

Hunter - Increase range to 1-3. Increase crit mod vs Critters to 60%. Increase damage on all attacks at all ranks by 4. Increase Poison Arrow’s base damage in specific by 8 and increase its crit to match other attacks. Add crit mods vs Animals and Soldiers to Double Shot. Add 15% armor piercing to both normal arrow attacks. Increase base HP by 5.

These changes should help the Hunter perform better from the second row, provide more damage, and be a better anti-critter option. It is a very niche unit vs critters that is outclassed by units with more versatility.

Imperial Dragoon - Change attack from Contact Fixed to simply Contact. Add 90% damage taken from Crushing and Piercing attacks. Increase base health by 20. Increase damage scaling per rank by 5 instead of 3.

This change should hopefully make the Imperial Dragoon better at frontlining and allow it to have continued use outside of the 3 tiles in front of it similar to the Scout’s Baseball Bat attack.

Junior Officer - Crit of Triple shot to 8%. Increase Point Blank’s Damage by 4 at all ranks, Increase Crit vs Solider’s to 30%, Add 25% Armor piercing.

This change will give Point Blank a purpose other than preserving ammo with a random chance to hopefully do less than half the damage of Triple shot.

Scout - Change the Scatter Shot attack from Direct (Random) to Direct. Change damage from x4 randomized between both tiles to x3 on both tiles. Decrease Ammo to 3. Increase Reload to 3 rounds.

This should help the scout be more consistent at the cost of an increased reload, and less ammo before loading.

Sharpshooter - Increase damage at all ranks by 7.

Flame Trooper - Add 90% damage taken from Crushing and Piercing attacks. Increase base health by 20. Increase damage scaling per rank by 5 instead of 3. Add an additional attack that fires in a 3 tile column that is Precise (Fixed) with damage falloff at the 3rd tile.

Same reasons for changes as the Dragoon. Also, flame throwers in real life can reach farther than melee distance.

Hornet - Add 30% armor piercing. Increase damage by 6 at all ranks.

I feel it’s fitting the damage is random but the amount of damage for it being random doesn’t seem to fit all too well.

Honorable Mentions:

Riot Trooper - Change Blocking from Partial to Blocking.

Maybe this change is too much. It’s more of a random thought I have for the unit to give it a use outside of just placing a cheaper to heal, train and promote sandbag pile in the way instead for blocking attacks.

Ranger - Add a melee attack that makes use of that machete on its back.
R1 and 6 Stats:
Damage: 44-50 to 74-80 (Piercing)
Offense: 55 to 80
Crit vs Critter and Soldier: 15% to 40%
Range: 1 (Contact)

Honestly, the Heavy Gunner should be changed but idk how because the TF2 Heavy is just going to be better no matter what outside of healing cost.

So what does anyone else think of these changes ? Too OP ? Too Weak ?

[obtuse shadow]

definitely agree with all of these changes besides junior officer and hornet, which is simply because i haven't used those two

i also like the idea of riot trooper having full blocking since it already has such a hefty train/heal cost at the level you unlock it and start using it at

[uneven dove]

the AP on the junior officer might be too much, but other than that, no real objections to any of this

god knows these units need it

some of these buffs won't be enough to save some of the units on this list tbh

but that goes beyond just stats and more so the way the game is played

[azure elm]

Maybe, considering you could have 2 Junior Officers and constantly alternate between two for 25% AP on Point Blank.

[azure elm]

But yeah, with units like.... The Heavy, Minitank and Demoman... you kind of need nothing else unfortunately at the moment.

[astral wraith]

it probably wouldnt do very much, anything with armor reduces the damage a lot anyway

and at that level things either dont have armor or they have too much to reasonably punch through with them

[azure elm]

Would only be barely useful vs Riot Troopers at that point I guess and even then you only find about 6 troopers at the siege of Marin.

[astral wraith]

the junior officer is for all intents and purposes a f2p shock trooper

it is also functionally a ranger damage-wise

[azure elm]

Yeah, was looking at the stats between the two and they were pretty similar. Decided “why not give the junior officer more crit to match the Shock Trooper ?” Idk why but the officer name gives me the idea it should crit more often.

[astral wraith]

the secondary attack does vs soldiers

not that it's a particularly strong attack

[uneven dove]

for the ranger, a lot has been talked about with giving it a melee attack, not against it mind you, but I just don't know if it is going to be enough to put it above its competitor, the battle raptor, right now I don't think so

[astral wraith]

raptors are also completely replaced (if you want the same function) by the aces650

[uneven dove]

yea but thats way later on

[astral wraith]

if you're even still using them by the time you get rangers

the ranger should be better in general

[uneven dove]

rangers just need sweeping buffs across the board

alongside the recon

[astral wraith]

rangers only do

9 more damage

than a jr officer

[uneven dove]

and other units that does the same thing

[astral wraith]

with worse offense

[uneven dove]

ranger suffers from I am from a different version of the game syndrome

because by god you can tell it is for a completely different era of BN

[azure elm]

Yeah, that’s the thing. I did the calculations on the Junior Officer and it’s 20 dmg per ammo at R1 for triple shot. And 27 dmg AVERAGE for the point blank vs Soldiers.

But that’s the average bad luck can negate that. Also, I don’t think any player cares about damage per ammo. Rather how much burst something has as the goal at that level is simply “kill them before they kill me” and not conversing ammo.

(Meant to send this earlier)

[astral wraith]

it suffers from being a very slightly buffed shock trooper at too late a level, when you've just got access to jr officers way sooner

and yknow tons of other stuff

if you want a shock trooper with more than 100 health

just make more recons

you get them sooner

same defense and stuff

[broken kraken]

Ranger is Fine ™ when you rank it up but by that point you unlock something good

[astral wraith]

and signifigantly better offense AND some damage reduction

[uneven dove]

the enforcer shows what the ranger could have been in a lower level context

[astral wraith]

basically

ranger should just become our trooper

and it should be better than units you get before it

the aces sort of fits that role but of course it's not very useful by the time you get it

[uneven dove]

unfortunately it costs too much, takes too long to train, and cost too much to heal to ever fulfill the role of a trooper

1000 iron on this thing is crazy

[astral wraith]

emphasis on should

[uneven dove]

yea I know

[astral wraith]

This is a rebalance suggestion after all

[uneven dove]

I am just pointing out the problems that needs to be addressed

[azure elm]

So the issues here are either units are straight up bad, Don’t have a good use, or are unlocked too late. Their competition usually unlocked too early.

[uneven dove]

most early game units are trash

[astral wraith]

I'm more concerned about performance, if it was good the cost wouldnt be as big a deal

[uneven dove]

people kept defaulting to minitanks and tf2 units because they actually deal damage for early game units

and remains useful beyond when they are unlocked

[astral wraith]

and have aoe

our ranger should ideally be a combination wolf enforcer + chopper

[azure elm]

Oh yeah, that’s a big one. I know it wasn’t in this post but why have an any artillery, flame trooper or dragoon when a solider or heavy does it in a bigger area.

Or have a gun truck when a Demoman can do nearly the same thing more than once every 8 rounds.

[astral wraith]

There is no reason

[uneven dove]

arty overall is mostlu bad but thats a different can of worms

[astral wraith]

You either need to completely rebalance many of the units lvls 1-30ish (which should probably be done anyway) to put them more on par with the tf2 units and/or make the tf2 units unlock at like lvl 25

they have too much health and power at their current availability but by the time you hit marin, and paired with their ranks being limited by player level, they're way more balanced by that point

[azure elm]

Yeah, maybe that’s the best option. Move them to level 20-25 THEN buff the units prior.

[astral wraith]

some people see the tf2 units and default to wanting nerfs but you should aim to lift the already bad units up instead

most of the tf2 units arent very good either

They're just lvl 25-30 units unlocked at lvl 13

which is an issue

[azure elm]

Oh lord, early game would be WAY worse if they were just nerfed and nothing else was buffed.

That stage of the game should draw in new players and keep them wanting more. Not give them a bunch of terrible units and leave them hanging.

[uneven dove]

the entire early game balance is another can of worms that is probably the biggest obstacle to attracting new players, because its horrible

[astral wraith]

Too many nano traps and just generally garbage units down there

[uneven dove]

timers and resource gates all over the place

not to mention the in your face p2w monetization

[astral wraith]

Also, for this suggestion in particular

You should also consider anything available in the vf as well

[azure elm]

I have another suggestion going over early game but no one read it, it seems

[astral wraith]

As I noted, the recon is better than shock troopers, jr troopers, and rangers (still not great but you get it), need to consider any overlap or alternatives

[uneven dove]

it has been talked a lot over the past

[azure elm]

Ah, I see

[azure elm]

I’m making another post for that later. Didn’t want this post to have too big of an opening message.

[astral wraith]

It's just the issue of suggestions being kind of crummy

[azure elm]

Some people are like “too long, didn’t read”

[astral wraith]

You'd be better off making a google doc that was easier on the eyes tbh

And just posting the link in a suggestion

Presentation in here is mediocre

[azure elm]

Yeah, could compile all my ideas there I guess. I already have the drafts saved on Google Docs before I paste them here

[astral wraith]

suggestion moment, 1 vote 90 comments

many such cases

[azure elm]

Lmaooo

[astral wraith]

This could be yoooouuuu

[azure elm]

I feel my ideas aren’t terrible… idk why no one looks at them

[astral wraith]

People don't care as much about early game balance probably

It's not relevent to most of us so it falls to the wayside

These discussions were already had months ago

[azure elm]

I feel the whole idea is “I’m past that point, who cares” but how will the game attract new players ? I cannot REASONABLY suggest this game to my friends as they never heard about it. They’d drop this and just go play Clash of Clans as they already do.

[uneven dove]

the suggestion channel is also quite reactionary? Singleminded? Not sure how to put it, but suggestions centered around one specific topic tends to get a lot of traction than a widespread of ideas in one post. EG Collect all button, specific mission changes, notes on one unit, that things like that

[astral wraith]

Argumentative, or contrarian

People argue for the sake of it

Or treat suggestions like general chat

[astral wraith]

as you can see

As nice of an idea as these forums are they too easily get swept up in all of the above that I'd honestly prefer no comments

Just votes

We already have discussion channels

[broken kraken]

So many units need balance changes if only to make the early game more interesting and avoid driving off new players

[azure elm]

Yeah, I just see some people like “well, too bad. You have to grind because that’s the game.” And sure, that worked back then when I played for the first time as most games were like that.

However, in the modern era, that’s only going to attract old/nostalgic players or whales. No normal player is getting this game.

Unless they have a thing for… this

[uneven dove]

suggestion channel is a salt mine more often than not

people have gotten really heated over just the concept of grinding resources, in both directions, so take that as you will

[astral wraith]

This wasnt a thing in the old game

You just had to wait for your mines to do the job

The ability to raid gantas or anywhere else was extremely limited

[azure elm]

Oh yeah, I know that. Thank god. But even then, the rewards for how much the game demands is EXTREMELY lopsided. If it matched the ability to get stone it would be a different story.

[astral wraith]

I don't think it's healthy for the game to (in some people's eyes) demand that sort of grinding period

I'm personally inclined to chalk it up partially to impatience

The can of worms was opened and people took the grind as normal

[azure elm]

Agreed. Ive compared this game to Warframe, Clash or Borderlands and its grind. The main difference is that you just aren’t tapping and watching the exact same sequence of actions over and over. The gameplay REALLY helps in making the grind actually fun.

[astral wraith]

I'm tentatively hopeful the addition of functioning decorations will alleviate the problem a bit

[azure elm]

Here, you can’t really lean on gameplay so I feel it has to be more rewarding somewhat. Or like you said, functional decorations bc I’d spam the heck out of those

[astral wraith]

I'd prefer if locations people use for grinding resources just gave you a big chunk with a limit of x times per day

It's kind of stupid to raid an iron mine and get only a handful of the stuff

Because the current grind is both long and monotonous, it also outpaces our iron mines

[azure elm]

YES, that is a huge one right there. Time-gated with bigger payouts rather than no limit with a bunch of crumbs. It makes it so you don’t have to be eternally online to gain anything worthwhile.

[astral wraith]

It also discourages anyone automating it with 3rd party programs

because then there would be no point

[azure elm]

That’s why I like the idea of the respawnable bosses over 10% chance from random places because it’s a big chunk, still requires effort, doesn’t break the game because the big chunk is gated behind the next time it respawns.

[astral wraith]

If you were to change it to "raid it once a day" it would be prudent to add a more challenging encounter similar to the change they did with greenborough

With the reward being upwards of like 5k iron daily or something, have both the reward and battle scale with level

At the current max level I'd have it become like a daily boss strike fight with multiple waves

per area

It would be far more engaging

Would also be good for testing formations

and reward good sp

[azure elm]

Lol, I suggested that too. I was thinking 3 waves every day. Maybe at max level, dropping a small amount of Tier 3 resources. Very VERY Rare chances for tier 4.

I was thinking for before AC. It would drop 1 gear from the daily.

If you could beat it consistently unless that’s too much

[astral wraith]

In treating it like a boss, like AS and AC both spawning in the same area, these fights could then be static daily or however often encounters (maybe up to 3 days respawn idk, depends how rewarding it is)
which will give people of different strength levels stuff to still fight and earn

So yeah nix raiding just make them sort of multi-wave respawning mini-bosses

[azure elm]

But you probably have the 10% from naval encounters already so maybe 1 gear per mini-boss daily wouldn’t be too economy breaking.

[astral wraith]

For a regular fight I think upwards of 3 would be fine

If you have it for real real low levels then have it be 1

Gives the lower level players some wiggle room

[azure elm]

Especially with the whole "need gears to get gears" from the construnct thing

[astral wraith]

also further invalidates naval as a part of progression which I'm all for

[azure elm]

but yeah, definitely going to put everything into a selection of google docs I update every so often. Hopefully that gains more traction.

[astral wraith]

the ratio only grows

[azure elm]

Lol, is what it is. "SP Buff" will always be the word people fly to

[astral wraith]

SP buff or boss drops

magic words

[azure elm]

Wait, so your'e already max level and mammoth tier ?

[astral wraith]

Yup

[azure elm]

Ah, that's cool. Didn't think someone that high level was still thinking about how bad the early game was.

[astral wraith]

It's a bit of a brag 🤥 but I am the guy who got the boss strike drops for ranks 3 and 7 to be given to us in bundles of 3, my reasoning was two-fold. It'd be fun because only 1 means they're basically useless, and it means lower level players still get a nice little toy to use.

The dirigible was the meta for low level players during BS 1

[uneven dove]

most of the people making comments and complaining about the early game are maxed level players

most people know how much the early game sucks and what it means for the future of the game

I can count completely new players this game has managed to pull in on two hands

[azure elm]

Ah, that's interesting. Then who are these people so against change ? Ragebaiters or just people who simply don't care about attracting new players ?

[astral wraith]

.

[uneven dove]

contrarians

[azure elm]

If there is no growth, the game get's less support. That's how business works.

[astral wraith]

Also everyone has their own idea of what should be done

[uneven dove]

BN Players consistently vote against their own interests like they are actually voting in an election

[obtuse shadow]

i didn't think the raptors would eat MY face!

[azure elm]

They must REALLY love the idea of Gantas' Penitentary then, Jesus

[uneven dove]

and yea people just have different ideas on how to do things, just that some of those ideas are bad and the people having them can't be convinced otherwise

[azure elm]

Oh yeah, reminds me of the one post where someone wanted Heavy Tanks to do more damage than TKs

[uneven dove]

Something something Thank god you guys are not making Battle Nations, or else it would suck (more)

[azure elm]

I have personal experience with making mods for games or just creating things in DnD. In all of that, I learned a lot on how to keep things balanced and not insane. At first I was horrid lol.

[astral wraith]

It's why I try to keep my own suggestions relatively straight and narrow

And small in scope

You have hits such as "Buff Pyro" and "Make Heavy Gunner Red"

[uneven dove]

I think I made only one post and its complaining about unit promotion cost for early game stuff lmao

[azure elm]

Ah yes, 6000 iron for my Battle Raptor or two Mini Tank Promotions... hmmmm

[uneven dove]

wait untiil you find out what R6 troopers cost

[azure elm]

20 gosh darn bars basically ?! Like... I feel you should be able to max out troopers before level 42 which is when you get a refinement facility.

well, 18 bars total to be exact

Welp, here's my google doc idea for organizing things

[uneven dove]

much prettier

[sick viper]

I think the Ranger would be a lot more useful if perhaps they were on par with the Commando but Commando also could do more. I'm talking getting some dodge, and having something like an AT Grenade being thrown would make me use them but then what unit wouldn't want that?

Yeah you can add melee, but that doesn't address the armored elephant in the room.

In general every infantry unit with a rifle should aspire in some manner to be the vet, but you do that and then why make a vet? Could add armor, but what's that going to do make them live 3 more seconds?

[astral wraith]

Well they don't need to be as strong as the vet but should still be serviceable for at least the next 5-10 levels

light aoe and bigger stats and adding melee to rangers gives more damage types

[sick viper]

I mention the vet because if I am to think of any useful unit; Veteran.

Infantry don't have much going for them that's the problem they're phased out to be completely replaced by tanks. By giving the Ranger a grenade, you now can be slightly more useful against vehicles that'd make me happy. But then you get greedy "Why doesn't the main attack pen vehicles?"

Same thing happens with the commando, I think the Commando should definitely have AP on it's primary attack. But you do that, and it's just a mini-vet. In the end, every is a symbiote to the vet.

[astral wraith]

A lot of units with pierce should get the raptor treatment and have armor pen and extra crit and stuff

and commando could honestly probably become a lower level or even sidegrade veteran

[sick viper]

I just think the best solution for infantry at specifically 23 is going to be making them have more AP in general, because that's when Tanks start appearing that invalidate them. And this could be done by giving them in general AT, but there's so many units and they exist only to be replaced.

I think the Commando should be a vet sidegrade but also it's... Roundabout. You need the spec ops facility which hinders it (because it's old!) where as the vet needs none. You need Rank 3 for that Grenade Launcher, which while useful against vehicles, what's the point of the primary attack now? For mid range that's probably fine but, it's just a symbiosis to veteran. Needs more AP, needs more survivability.

[uneven dove]

the way the game progresses means you need either AP or explosive attacks to be viable even into the mid game

[astral wraith]

It's why I like the idea of ranger getting melee

let me expand a bit

I like units becoming more broad in scope as you progress in level
specialized if you will, I'm sure there's a better word for it

[sick viper]

specialize is the best word, niche too.

[uneven dove]

and this makes me want to go on another rant about enforcers and sw arty removal but this isn't the place for it is it,

[astral wraith]

You go from "this guy has a rifle, this guy has a grenade, this guy has a flamethrower" to units who're more tactical and able to be used in more situations

[sick viper]

Salamander > Flamethrower

Salamander needs no building. Flamethrower reqs heavy weapons factory.

[astral wraith]

"This guy has an automatic rifle, a knife, and some grenades"

[sick viper]

Flamethrowers get one attack, Salamanders get 3.

[astral wraith]

I think it's a good progression

[uneven dove]

I don't know if flamers sucked as much as they do now in old versions of BN

[astral wraith]

Rangers would be a good all rounder
And then you have the heavy gunner who should be buffed and be really useful in situations against mass soft targets

Generalists vs specialists I guess

[sick viper]

I use my Salamanders all the time. But the point was that the Flamethrower is baby's first flame type unit, and the Salamanders are way more versatile.

[astral wraith]

Or the tempest or whatever, if you wanted to keep a f2p heavy gunner a lower level unit

[astral wraith]

versatile was the word I think I was looking for

a unit like the salamander is more of a specialist

It does fire and fire and then the punch but the punch also makes fire

[sick viper]

The Rangers in general seem like a great F2P Generalist they're just plagued by having one attack. Even if they fall off at level 40-50, just giving them an AT grenade would help out imo. Could make it fun and have it inflict some kinda stun or something on hit to vehicles only.

Hearing "The best of the best" and it's just a dude with a little machinegun is silly.

[astral wraith]

yeah why they should have a sword attack and maybe a grenade throw, and some light aoe (like a 1x3 attack) on the sword or something

Like the ranger should be a trooper who went and got better training and can do more

[sick viper]

I like that idea, give them more grenades, and rounds. However I feel you should have to restrict yourself to AT rangers or HE rangers (which'd require you to only have 1 grenade type at a time)

Heavy Gunner could be useful but Heavy Gunner is also plagued by the same thing afflicting the Tempest, and then you edit him and you should edit Ramsey.

To which I say- Give'em precise. Among you know- other things relevant to the progression to unlock one, and the economy to do so...

[azure elm]

The only thing I can think of for infantry is reducing repair cost at later levels. Increasing… possibly… dodge across the board or something for infantry after vehicles are unlocked. But Idk how infantry can be made better than an outright vehicle that fulfills the same job.

[astral wraith]

I think something like a flame grenade (that isnt ass) for vehicles and armored units in general, melee attack that's aoe and is kinda ok for most situations (has some armor pierce because big choppy knife), a buffed single target burst attack, and maybe a burst fire gun attack for more aoe if necessary

[sick viper]

Healing is stupid at low levels because low level hospitals require it to go much longer which is the biggest problem. Even at a level 10 hospital it's usually still ridiculous.

[azure elm]

Because it’s just like… why ever use a juggernaut… like ever ever. The heavy tank is unlocked at the same level. Unless spending nanopods is better than grinding for gears if you got the money to blow away.

[astral wraith]

It's another thing my above idea for replacing grinding for crumbs with repeatable minibosses for bundles of resources available at each level bracket would help with

I'll probably try to flesh it out some more and make it it's own suggestion

[sick viper]

In general due to the idea of "Low level unit get replaced by higher unit" should be looked at- not for the longevity of say, the Heavy Grenadier, but more so in repair costs. That's the biggest hinderence early on.

[azure elm]

I mean. I understand a unit having an upgrade later on. I feel that’s a thing in games. However, if a unit is unlocked and there is literally no reason, even at the level it is unlocked at, to use it. Then I feel it’s a problem.

[astral wraith]

Would help if earlier units ranked faster and didnt take resources that were basically unavailable that you need ***to rank them ***when they're still useful

So you can still use them by the time you're getting those upgrades but they'd still be a little useful until you were done replacing them

I'd like to see a smoother transition from bracket to bracket

[azure elm]

Yeah, that would help.

[astral wraith]

It's why I'm a big advocate for a total restructure of tank availability

There's a long wait period from minis to lights to heaviers

once mediums become f2p you'd be able to do that much smoother

and then make heavy tanks way way cheaper

[azure elm]

So my ideas here is firstly, cheaper healing and training costs and timers. Then decrease the dodge of some tanks that are heavier and increase the dodge of some infantry. Lastly maybe make infantry more niche based if they already have a niche via crit rates vs unit types. Or maybe infantry is just in general doomed after unlocking vehicles.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d5L9sMuc0uDzuRusGlgS7Nw0hk6Z8Zb6jaIbWbGQJsk/edit?tab=t.s1e8i89d5gq6

[broken kraken]

we can't see it

[azure elm]

Made some changes but newly formatted. Idk how im going to share all these here but will probably make a dicussion post I post these links in or find some way to do it.

Oh, im a goober

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d5L9sMuc0uDzuRusGlgS7Nw0hk6Z8Zb6jaIbWbGQJsk/edit?tab=t.s1e8i89d5gq6

[uneven dove]

for the scout bike, the most obvious extra change that you didn't mention is giving it more attack slots

it has 1

it only ever has 1

[azure elm]

Ohhh

thanks

[astral wraith]

I would give shock troopers 2 attack slots also

nobody ever takes attack 2 over attack 1

[azure elm]

alrighty

[astral wraith]

If you wanna get REAL indepth

make charts for them all

based on these

have like

[Insert Unit] (Damage) 1-5 -> now 2-6

something like that

per rank

you get the idea

[azure elm]

Maybe, depends how far I want to get into this. Would only need to do it to stats I change afterall.

[astral wraith]

tru

You could/should maybe delete your first giant comment, and edit your opening post to just that google doc

Or you can make a new suggestion whatever floats your boat

[azure elm]

Yeah, I was thinking a new suggestion maybe once I flesh what I have out.

[astral wraith]

I think the riot trooper should do more than 20 damage personally

I think it would be ok for it to have damage ranging between the troopers regular shot and double shot

[azure elm]

I wonder how I should do the damage range for multi-hit attacks. I guess the graph would really help there then.

[astral wraith]

If a unit does 1-5 damage

and you increase it by 4

might be good to list it as "increase by 4-4"

becuse there's a pretty big difference between 1-9 and 5-9

[azure elm]

I was thinking for if I leave it at text alone. "Increase damage range by 4". So would they think an attack doing 1-5(x2) damage would simply do 3-7(x2) damage or 5-9(x2) damage. The graph would clear that up.

[astral wraith]

that works too

do you mean rng attack when you refer to multi-hit?

the duneriders 2nd attack for example

[azure elm]

Yeah, that too.

and for example the shock trooper

because what I'm putting right now could be thought of as increasing total damage by 4 or each bullet by 4.

[astral wraith]

yeah

1-1(x3) with an added damage range of 4 would then become 5-5(x3)

in my eyes at least, maybe its wrong 🤷‍♂️

[azure elm]

Yeah, thats what I've been going off of but I'll put the graph there to clear up any misinterpretations.

[astral wraith]

the graphic makes it easier for people to instantly see what you're changing without having to cross refernce the wiki

an anti-defense attack on the arsonist is probably not all that necessary of an addition

I can't really think of where it would be useful

[azure elm]

Idk, I just see the name "Arsonist" and it isnt doing too much arson lol

that's the entire thinking process there

[astral wraith]

I mean he's got the molotov

gets the job done

dont really fight those till sarin

defenses I mean

[azure elm]

Unfortunately... hmm, might leave it out then. Unless it could be a thing when occupation comes in. Could be something for someone super low level to use.

[astral wraith]

You could just give the regular molotov baseline crit

since I dont think i've ever seen "crit vs defense"

[azure elm]

It's ONLY on the demolisher

[astral wraith]

right

you could just bake that into the regular molotov then

doesnt need to be a new attack

[azure elm]

Understandable

[astral wraith]

might be prudent to keep the scouts attack at (x4) it's intended to last into late game-ish

I might have to think on that a bit

should be fine I think

I'd also increase bat crit to 30%

ideally it would be changed to a later unlock so as to not just be the strongest thing ever at lvl 10

and bar heal cost changed to no bars to heal and costs a bar to make

[azure elm]

I was just thinking on how crazy that would be early game. 13-20 x4 on both tiles is around 66 damage for each (average). But now that I say it, maybe it isnt too crazy. At rank 5 which I think is the max rn, it is 170 damage for each. Idk if that is a lot up there or not.

But as you said, it's basically a level 20 unit unlocked at level 10

[astral wraith]

It's still way worse than a vet and it's a bad attack type with no armor pierce

maybe later it would need a nerf (though I find it unlikely), but as is the scout is kind of bad

[azure elm]

Yeah, at early game, you'd be oneshotting raider warriors, firebreathers, boom booms but not critters still. Maybe that isnt too too bad considering that a trooper double shot does that when you unlock it.

[astral wraith]

I wouldnt want the scout to be available that early, plus, a bar cost upfront gates it a bit

depending

if it was pre-friend update then it would

but at the same time yeah, not a huge deal kinda?

he'll still mostly fall off around lvl 20

[azure elm]

Besides... theres the Heavy which kills most of the board in two attacks compared to the scout if it was buffed that way which would only kill two things next to each other in 1 turn.

[astral wraith]

or you tweak numbers in such a way that you get rid of (x4) and you just average the damage out

[azure elm]

yeah

[astral wraith]

which would give you a reason to up the crit rate a bit

since you're not rolling multiple times on lower end crit chance

the tf2 units are a special case because of how well they scale

gotta treat em as such

[azure elm]

Maybe scaling crit chance then based on rank

[astral wraith]

you could probably give it a flat 30% on both attack and it would be fine tbh

[azure elm]

Also just added this at the start of the section to clear things up.

Before I go ahead and add charts to everything

[astral wraith]

riot trooper getting blocking is probably too much for early game, especially if we dont give it to mini tanks, it's probably just not that necessary in that environment

and I'd make the shield slam non-nano

honestly should just be baseline

I could go either way on the blocking tbh

[azure elm]

It was mostly for blocking Raider Outcasts from Sarin and have that be an option to stop that. Could use heavys to tank for those shots but... I think that may be a bad idea honestly unless you want them two shotted

[astral wraith]

I used heavies and sandbags when I did it

only sandbags died

[azure elm]

Me too, all 3 of my sandbags died lol

[astral wraith]

also sarin unlocks after minitanks im pretty sure

I'd have to double check

[azure elm]

Iron issues for that in my attempt

But yeah, cya some other time. Getting late over here.