wait and repulsive?
#h1-high-heat-strategies
bronze viper
I wish Sniper Shot moderately increased the maximum range of the weapon as well. Would be appropriate
mossy zinc
Tell them in #test-branch-discussion. Tell them.
edgy arrow
that’d actually be cool
hollow lynx
i wish 5/6 of the hidden aspects had better exclusive hammers 💔
edgy arrow
maybe of limited use on rama tho
bronze viper
She's meming. He has Triple + Repulse for 54 I think, and Sniper + something at 53. Unless I'm misremembering and Tail actually did do hammerless at 52+
honest kernel
I like most of the hidden-exclusive hammers, I think
well, actually
i like 2-3 of them
lol
I'm not a huge fan of Lucifer's clip capacity, so I happily trade the damage ramp for infinite beam
especially with Poseidon super-soaker build
hollow lynx
they missed an opportunity to have GY's exclusive make the spin pierce, like how GY was on release
edgy arrow
greater consecration is amazing
honest kernel
it is
edgy arrow
tries to think of another good exclusive hammer
hollow lynx
greater consecration is the only one i like
edgy arrow
eh
honest kernel
lol
hollow lynx
flash fire is good but like... this should just be base
honest kernel
I really want to like Lucifer, but every time I do and don't get good boon/hammer RNG, I just feel like i should've run any other gun
bronze viper
I'm not a huge fan of Lucifer's clip capacity, so I happily trade the damage ramp for infinite beam
especially with Poseidon super-soaker build
@honest kernel This was the early meta for Lucifer when it was released, but after some time people started moving to Flash Fire for this playstyle because of the range bonus, and the fact that since you need to stop attacking to get iframes, and Lucifer doesn't destroy projectiles, you have to deal with the awful startup animation every time you need to attack again.
honest kernel
yeah, I can definitely understand that lol
hollow lynx
beo's exclusive is... okay, sure, whatever
honest kernel
Lucifer I think is the only weapon that can't break projectiles
hollow lynx
rama is lol
honest kernel
and Athena laser doesn't really work the way I'd like it to
mossy zinc
I think no one actually knows how to optimize Lucifer because nobody plays it seriously lol.
proud jay
I did 45 heat in blood price with lucifer and it was terrible
bronze viper
tries to think of another good exclusive hammer
@edgy arrow Greater Consecration
mossy zinc
Yeah, I'm very convinced it's terrible lol.
But that's also why no one is studying all the build options seriously.
bronze viper
The special feels better now. Perhaps some KBM Lucifer specialist will come out of the woodwork lol
honest kernel
i think that's the main issue with it
mossy zinc
In the test branch, you mean?
honest kernel
it's a cool weapon but it just feels... awkward? cumbersome?
laser start-up time, bomb set-up time
laser only hits one thing and can't break projectiles
without the piercing fire, enemies can body-block your ability to shoot your bombs
it needs some QoL adjustments, methinks
bronze viper
My #1 issue with it, which isn't it's worst attribute, but the one that annoys me the most, is that controller + auto aim makes bomb management impossible in a chaotic room.
honest kernel
ah, I play M+KB
and i just recently turned autoaim off, was using it for most of my runs until recently
cinder cave
@mossy zinc just checking out a run by Tailesque that you mentioned
holy crap TD3 seems so insane for Tartarus
So when it says it's unseeded, is that because if you give up the seed of a run is preserved?
cinder cave
and so someone could do a more efficient run by preserving the seed from the run (doing a dummy run then trying to ace it)
correct?
mossy zinc
It's mostly for having a good starting hammer or boon of your choice even with AP2. We did that before 1.0 because the leaderboard wasn't separated in any way like that.
astral swift
So out of curiosity, why is EM4 never used at higher heat? Don't get me wrong I know Hades is hard as hell, but I would've thought eventually you get used to that difficulty like you do with the other EMs, no?
daring hedge
i wouldn't say it's never used
mossy zinc
Difficulty aside, the fight takes a long time if you're not hyper aggressive lol.
daring hedge
but it's extremely difficult with everything else around 45-50, so not having it takes a lot of pressure off
astral swift
Oh that's fair it'd definitely be a speed killer. Didn't think of that
mossy zinc
Obviously @daring hedge will do the fight in 1 min 30 sec with Repulsive Shot and no Attack boon, but I'm not Tailesque. 
bronze viper
There are some harder checks in EM4 at very high heat than the other EMs. For instance:
TD3: The fight is long, and Hades can heal. You need time to do this.
HL5: Self-explanatory. Spear chuck is 100 damage, which is virtually always SD lost.
FO2: His new animations are very hard/impossible to react to at melee range
Summons: Most builds have real issues with some combinations of his miniboss summons. Sneaks are probably the most obvious offender. No one likes multiple Sneaks.
daring hedge
lol
true fable
i have tried to understand the repulse but it is hard to take over like point blank twin
daring hedge
repulse is a meme, don't be fooled
honest kernel
I've noticed SD is preferred over DD on higher heat--is it really more valuable?
mossy zinc
There's also the issue of skulls with FO2 that's only exacerbated by everything else he does if you add EM4 on top of that.
true fable
@honest kernel its the only way to heal with LC4 on
main delta
kinda unrelated but thanks Tailesque for posting your heat videos on yt! just beat my first 40 heat with rama
bronze viper
It's probably net more valuable at low heat too with LC0, but it's more subjective at that point.
true fable
or only reliable way
astral swift
okay so that answers my next question tbh. FO2 affects the bosses?
or just the mobs they spawn?
true fable
yes lol
daring hedge
@main delta wow congrats!
true fable
so does cp and hl
astral swift
Interesting
true fable
pain
honest kernel
congrats!
mossy zinc
Congratulations!
bronze viper
kinda unrelated but thanks Tailesque for posting your heat videos on yt! just beat my first 40 heat with rama
@main delta That's really cool! Welcome to the 1%, and remember you can record and post 40+ runs for our discord leaderboard.
honest kernel
i guess screencaps are no good for the leaderboard?
astral swift
when you say post it do you me-- yeah that's what i was ognna ask
honest kernel
easier to doctor and all
astral swift
the whole run or just a screenshot?
bronze viper
Whole run, and if you want to submit for Unseeded, you need to record your previous death/victory as well
main delta
makes sense
bronze viper
He's not always active, but you can tag Krashercorr in #self-promotion with the video link.
main delta
i can't believe 50+ heat is even possible unseeded
astral swift
Last q for now. Why LC4 and not HL5 for "typical" high heat runs? Is it just cause of bosses?
bronze viper
HL5 is a nightmare. LC4 with Stubborn Defiance doesn't really have a cost. The reasoning is that since you get so much healing during the run with SD, you don't ever need to spend gold to recuperate from mistakes
And as normal rooms start getting more and more challenging, you will start making a lot more mistakes in normal rooms
honest kernel
interesting
main delta
When would you say to switch to SD over DD?
bronze viper
With DD, that's very prohibitive
astral swift
Oh I lied one more: do centaur heart rooms really take longer than regular rooms? I read they're "bigger" but dunno how true that is
and right fair
bronze viper
What I would do is try SD without LC4 for some normal runs, to get a feel for it. My rule of thumb would be, with DD, if you can kill the bosses with 0-1 DDs lost, then you're "ready" for SD
astral swift
yeah. that's how I got used to it
mossy zinc
You take DDs if you run LC0 or if you're sure you can no-hit almost everything up to Hades. You take SD for LC4 otherwise.
astral swift
and my followup q?
bronze viper
No, rooms don't really work that way.
hollow lynx
lol reddit
bronze viper
It's probably confirmation bias on the poster's part. 1.0 introduced some odd difficulty rating changes that made spawning some enemy types a lot more prevalent than others.
astral swift
Well it was the same post that told me about the 'typical' high heat set up
which turned out to be true, so I figured he knew stuff
but yeah
god i always forget
bronze viper
So if I booted up 1.0, and took a couple of Heart rooms, and got, say, Elite Thugs in the heart rooms, I'd maybe think that too
astral swift
right. fair enough
charon's fight pauses the timer, right? does that make it worth it usually or no since his oar is still the size of the gd moon
daring hedge
nope
bronze viper
No it does not, and no, it's not worth at high heat
In large part due to SD
And TD
daring hedge
and CF
astral swift
No I'm pretty sure it does pause it that was more of a rhetorical q... I'll check later to see if I'm right
bronze viper
Really, all pacts lmao
astral swift
but fair enough about everything else
bronze viper
Also, take massive grains of salt for people preaching about "typical high heat setups" That doesn't exist. It's very subjective.
Until you start approaching mid 40s+, you really can just take what you're comfortable with . The higher in heat you go, the "right" pact choices start getting a little more objective, but yeah.
astral swift
fair enough
honest kernel
how large can a single unit of salt become while still being considered a grain
astral swift
oh which chaos boons if any are worth grabbing? I knew there was something I keep meaning to ask but forgot lmao. I know to avoid the uhh
hidden room rewards, attack hurts you, more enemies ones but yeah
honest kernel
Attack+ or Special+ based on your main offensive output usually doesn't hurt
bronze viper
Probably the size of the sack of salt I pick up from Styx if it spawns in 4+ rooms
honest kernel
Attack hurts can be tolerable if you use Special a lot
daring hedge
take more damage, can't pick up casts for a while (assuming non cast build) are pretty free
honest kernel
if you're still in Tartarus, the negative precursor of Chaos boons is more flexible IMO
bronze viper
At very high heat, you are taking Chaos rooms to save time
honest kernel
also, 35 heat down for me now
slowly but surely...
bronze viper
So avoid things that damage you, and avoid +more enemy mods. The rewards don't matter nearly as much.
honest kernel
I'm beginning to see why Hestia isn't favored on the leaderboards, lol
much as I like it
astral swift
hestia sucks eris gang forever
daring hedge
inferno bombs upon death varies wildly with how difficult it is. can be a breeze and then suddenly you have a cloning numbskull room and it's not a breeze
astral swift
lmao yeah i had one of those problems for that exact reason once
bronze viper
Lol, or random Puller Speeder Slam Dancers that drop additional Inferno Bombs on death
daring hedge
and those chaos bombs just love to lob in the direction you're dashing, too. thank you chaos
bronze viper
It's totally random where they go right?
daring hedge
it is lol, i think?
honest kernel
i feel like they aim in your vague direction
honest kernel
like, perhaps a random point within X units of Zagreus
bronze viper
Yeah that would make some sense
honest kernel
i've hardly seen them fly further from me
if ever
and that also wouldn't be much of a downside either lol, it'd be free basically
alright, so what are the general opinions on the bottom 3 Mirror choices at high heats?
assuming you still have them available to you, lol
I tend to run Olympian Favor, God's Pride, and Persuasion
but I've seen Dark Foresight talked about a lot
bronze viper
Dark Foresight in all situations, God's Legacy if you want a specific duo or legendary, though I would say Pride is probably stronger on average, especially with AP1+, and Persuasion always
honest kernel
i see
daring hedge
god's favor, you mean? olympian is just for legacy
and yeah dark foresight is too good not to take now, imo
honest kernel
yo does anyone have a pic of a good pact of punishment for 32 heat?
bronze viper
Aspect?
honest kernel
oh let's say bow or the gun, any aspect
bronze viper
that's... not helpful
honest kernel
bruh bow the arrow one that focuses one guy you attacked last or gun the one that you deal +75% dmg
ripe crane
Starting this non-em4, 40 heat rift cast spear build with styx dark and 6:30 left on the clock. If I somehow die again I'm uninstalling
bronze viper
Oh, I thought you meant entering Styx with 6:30. Lol, there's some room for failure there.
cries in TD3
bronze viper
-5 damage/sec
daring hedge
constant ticking damage until you die
ripe crane
It was 6:30 with TD3 😉
honest kernel
lol so pretty much runends
daring hedge
not exactly
you can tank through it if it happens during a boss fight, which is often at high heat
bronze viper
I've gotten very close to -1 minute before lol
honest kernel
so what pact of punishment for 32 chiron bow
ripe crane
Oh no I closed the victory screen lmao
bronze viper
Nice!
so what pact of punishment for 32 chiron bow
@honest kernel Depends on what build you want to do, and if you're comfortable with LC4, UC or CF2. Hangover Chiron doesn't care about JSx, Deadly Flourish Chiron doesn't really care about CP
ripe crane
Dang it. That's like the one screen I really wanted. BUT I made save backups to practice the fight if I somehow messed it up. Hopefully I don't screw something up while trying to put these files back...
Can I just rename these like... Profile2 and it will go to another save slot?
astral swift
Jesus. 13 minute 27 heat run. I mean I knew I was gonna win that run but the 13 minutes really just caught me off guard
bronze viper
Lol, remember when you're copying temp saves over to new profiles that controls and stuff don't transfer with them.
ripe crane
hmmm okay I guess I will have to copy those also
astral swift
petition to get devs to let us leave the room after thanatos drops his heart and not the 50 seconds later when he finally leaves
thanatos i love you babe but you're killin' me
bronze viper
Press Codex when combat ends
astral swift
what does that do?
bronze viper
Pauses the game, but Thanatos will continue his animations and poof
astral swift
i hate that pressing select isn't a pause
tough elk
also if you get a fish 
astral swift
er, back. i'm old
bronze viper
Yeah, it annoys me too.
astral swift
i want to check my bouldy buff you stupid game lmao
bronze viper
Our desperate pleas to get Chamber number to be a toggleable part of the main UI were not heard
astral swift
also that yeah
true fable
just fyi for anyone who cares about submissions codex runs may not be considered iirc
bronze viper
For speed I assume you mean
ripe crane
Looking up duo requirements
bronze viper
Zing
true fable
well people realized the momentum from your run was conserved as well
when you opened codex
astral swift
momentum?
true fable
like when you run and then codex zag still moves a bit
absolutely disgusting amounts of time saved in codex
daring hedge
the time saved is going to be adjusted in the future, and speedruns are planning to ban its use overall
bronze viper
Lol, I knew Codex was default bound to RT for a reason
daring hedge
it's extremely exploitable in speedruns, to the point of making them painful to watch
astral swift
yeah
i absolutely would not watch that for that reason rofl
so where are the leaderboards? victory boasting or?
bronze viper
Sticky in this channel, spreadsheet
speedrun.com has heat submissions as well, but only for 50+ ggwp
astral swift
aww only for 40+
mossy zinc
They banned codex tech for speedruns now.
Took them long enough to "come to a decision". 
bronze viper
Is it an unfair advantage to not lose 15 seconds to Thanatos from TD3 though? 
Wow, an appropriate usage of thanthink
ripe crane
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/725021639506526249/770004292718297128/unknown.png?width=1194&height=671
Finally finished out 40s :D. I know I just posted this in the victory channel but wow, this build is fun af. Through many failures I really learned to like rift blade even without the hunting blade duo. On this run I didn't have the duo till early Elyseum and JS2 was no issue with how well it eats through groups. Being able to jump to a group with Achilles, launch a blade and attack a separate group felt really nice.
astral swift
Thanatos: "I'm leaving now"
Zagreus, reading the codex: "you were still here?"
ripe crane
Obviously wouldn't work as well with non spear builds, but it eats up skulls in Tartarus like nothing else. Shame sticking bloodstones in bosses is so important.
Also, I love flurry jab so much. I know y'all love your serrated edge but I feel like flurry is comparable without the loss of movement
bronze viper
Flurry Jab is great on Achilles
bronze viper
Deadly/Heartbreak Flourish
true fable
ive been using aphro to get smoldering air but i guess i could just do aphro call for that
mmm
bronze viper
Usually go for Deadly for Lightning Rod
true fable
deadly seems nice
daring hedge
i just don't like flurry jab a ton because it's not an option on my favorite spear aspect 
bronze viper
- Support Fire
ripe crane
You can't get flurry on hades?
bronze viper
(It gets rid of the spin)
daring hedge
it would just delete its whole gimmick lol yeah
bronze viper
It would get rid of the spin rather, but it's not offered
astral swift
I love the peace sign zag flashes before sinking on victorious runs lmao
bronze viper
Heartbreak Flourish is probably better overall for Smoldering Air though. I'm not entirely certain that's true though since Eris already builds charge crazy fast and Lightning Rod + Eris is very very good
mossy zinc
lol Eris builds gauge faster than Smoldering Air.
Deadly Flourish gets you Support Fire, too.
ripe crane
What makes lightning rod particularly good on eris?
bronze viper
Global damage affects it
astral swift
I like the idea of lighting rod but I'm too much of a fan of stygian soul to use it
bronze viper
Eh, it's getting optimized because it's popular. If not for @daring hedge getting all of his 50+ records on Rama it'd still be slept on and I'd still be that weirdo who keeps saying good things about Rama
astral swift
really? people didn't like rama? weird. it's always been the only bow aspect i have patience for lol
daring hedge
ledger was one of the only players brave enough to work with (or really, fight against) its molasses charge speed pre-1.0 at high heat
bronze viper
And I know it's hard to imagine, but Eris was in the exact same place pre-1.0
astral swift
ohh its charge speed sucked fair didn't know that used to be the case
bronze viper
We dismissed bablo's 48 as bablo doing bablo things, and Eris was still considered niche but inviable.
mossy zinc
We dismissed it?
I don't remember anybody dismissing Eris. I just had no idea if it was good or bad personally because I had no levels in it lol.
bronze viper
Me too
I think that's pretty much dismissal lmao
I put my first blood into it in 1.0 to test out the buff. Which is probably why most EA players tried it out.
ripe crane
Do we know the highest heat that's been done on Hestia?
ripe crane
How about in 1.0?
bronze viper
("by Bablo" was the theme of the last couple of months of Early Access heat progression lol)
No submissions
ripe crane
Hm. Everyone too busy with Eris. I would like to start streaming/capturing runs when trying for anything higher than 40 if my laptop can handle it. Would probably try to grind out some Hestia first.
bronze viper
Hestia should still be the best EM4 aspect in the game. I can't think of a reason why that wouldn't be the case.
Assuming DC0
It becomes one of the worst EM4 aspects in the game with DC lmao
ripe crane
It kind of sucks that 2/4 of the heat you get from going EM4 has to make up for losing DC2
ripe crane
I feel like Hestia is fine with AP1 though.
ripe crane
It's AP2 time then
daring hedge
AP1 is fine until divine dash gets denied twice in a row somehow after a reroll
no i'm not upset it's fine
ripe crane
So, when trying to push past 40, should I just go for something much higher immediately? Maybe 45? Or try to inch my way up? The big jumps worked well at lower heat but feels less feasible this high
mossy zinc
I dunno. I went from 41 to 52 lol.
bronze viper
Since getting a seed was so tedious and excruciating.
mossy zinc
Just do whatever you feel like at the moment.
bronze viper
But now that we mostly do unseeded, you can safely inch and test pacts out as you go.
ripe crane
How seedy are we talking for pre-1.0? Like complete seeding of multiple rooms or more like "I liked my starting boon/hammer, I'll give up and try this again"?
bronze viper
You can't seed multiple rooms. You can route to them
But seed refers to just finding a seed that happens to contain a specific boon for the first room.
It's kind of a semantic difference, but it's the line we've chosen.
ripe crane
Gotcha
bronze viper
Oh, to more specifically answer your question, yes, you kill yourself 100 times to get a specific hammer or boon at the rarity you'd like with AP2 in the first room, then just Give Up until it works.
If that sounds awful, it's because it was.
ripe crane
Wouldn't that technically be unseeded
astral swift
How many Routine inspections do people usually take, if any?
bronze viper
0 or 2
ripe crane
0
bronze viper
Wouldn't that technically be unseeded
@ripe crane Giving Up retains the seed
ripe crane
I mean the first part of finding the seed
Then the first run with technically be unseeded
astral swift
Alright so, I'm at LC4, CF2, EM3, BP2, MM1, UC1, FO2, HS1, AP2, TD3... that's 39 heat what am i missing
ripe crane
Since you died at the end of the run before
astral swift
you scared me I was like tf how did i miss hs lmao
ember bronze
So does our "leaderboard" now allow videos that use codex in Than rooms?
bronze viper
So what I would recommend for 1.0 meta is if you happen to see a great seed, say, for example, Perfect Hammer -> Key -> Room with 2 exits, and you die or win, before you go back to the House of Hades, pause, and copy the Profilex.sav, which should contain your seed. Test it out at some point to see if the hammer you wanted is still available with AP1/2,
Voila, a seeded run.
Hammer -> Key -> Room with 2 exits makes it maximally likely that with AP2 you can still get a boon you want in Room 3 from a God Keepsake
astral swift
right fair
mossy zinc
I'm actually so happy that seeded meta is gone.
Well, rather that it's separated now.
bronze viper
I know, right? Describing that process again gives me PTSD
mossy zinc
Nobody telling me that seeded is practically the same as unseeded anymore, either lol.
ripe crane
Right, but I don't want it to be seeded. I guess I'm just trying to ask if people genuinely try with whatever their starting boon is or they still die several times on purpose to get a great start
ember bronze
I'm really glad that playing the game authentically is the norm now, yes
mossy zinc
I just go in with whatever I get, yeah.
tidal flame
people said that?
I can argue for it.
Don't just wow before you read all the details
honest kernel
i sometimes Give Up if I greeded rerolls on the first boon and they turned bad
sometimes I'll Give Up if i'm just doing really poorly in Tartarus
mossy zinc
@astral swift as you can see lol.
honest kernel
once I reach Asphodel I always commit though
bronze viper
@ripe crane It's a bit of both. I will "go with whatever I get" but for example, if I'm on RI2 TD3, I'm killing myself the second I don't get the boon I want from the God keepsake offering.
ember bronze
It's fine to give up a run, but you should be going into the next run with no information
honest kernel
yeah, it's kind of rough if you use a keepsake and don't get what you're looking for
astral swift
I don't need "all the details" that's like saying "no my homerun record with a corked bat should count"
tidal flame
that's argument from ignorance
honest kernel
oh, right. whoops
astral swift
ok
tidal flame
honestly if you don't want to know the why and how of seeded attempts before 1.0
honest kernel
ember bronze
I think it's fine to get a great start, and reset/give up just for fun or practice
tidal flame
your attitude makes me don't want to type things up
ripe crane
Gotcha. Ty for the answers everyone :D
honest kernel
yeah, I guess it's not difficult to just die in next room if I'm doing poorly
ripe crane
Alright so, I'm at LC4, CF2, EM3, BP2, MM1, UC1, FO2, HS1, AP2, TD3... that's 39 heat what am i missing
@astral swift HS and AP2 are gonna be bad times. I would add JS/HL before those
astral swift
wait why whats wrong with high security
bronze viper
HS without EM4 is alright. The urns spawn less aggressively
astral swift
ohhh hades urns right
honest kernel
HS is like
free, except when you make that one mistake
astral swift
kk
daring hedge
HS has a side effect of just making you take traps more seriously, which is a good thing in the long run
bronze viper
I figure though by the time that you want to do high heat with EM4, you should probably have HS on regardless though, so it's kind of moot
astral swift
in your opinion ledge after what i listed, and possibly without ap2 tbh, what else should i take to hit 40
bronze viper
What aspect?
astral swift
eris
astral swift
yeah ap seems too nightmarish to deal with tbh. I didn't realise it effected stuff like hammers or poms too
mossy zinc
Adjust pacts based on your own experience while you practice. Experiment with different setups and see what works best for you.
bronze viper
You're missing JS3. I'd cut CP2 for JS3
mossy zinc
Yeah, JS is so much nicer than CP for most stuff. CP buffs bosses.
ember bronze
just a few days ago
astral swift
I didn't have CP I don't think
bronze viper
Oh, right.
astral swift
but fair I can probably add JS
mossy zinc
Tbh with Eris I'd probably just do JS3 CP2 TD3 and then whatever for the rest lol.
And use the points from that to keep EM low-ish.
I guess DC2, too? Not like DC2 matters for Eris.
bronze viper
Sorry, it's hard to parse pact lists like that. DC2 is relatively free. If you want to do JS3 CP2 DC2, I'd recommend TD2 until you get used to it, otherwise Tartarus has a pretty high fail rate.
astral swift
yeah asterius is such a pain in the ass for em
I was thinking going damage control yeah. Why do people dislike it usually?
mossy zinc
I think if you know how to build Eris, TD3 should be no problem with those pacts.
bronze viper
Because for slow-medium speed aspects, it is an enormous multiplier to effective enemy health
bronze viper
I think if you know how to build Eris, TD3 should be no problem with those pacts.
@mossy zinc Bruisers and free room counts will still screw up runs though. And TD3 with those pacts will make Styx far from guaranteed. At 40 heat it's nice to know you'll "always" make it if you play well.
astral swift
Bruisers and free room counts?
bronze viper
Bruiser is a BP mod that gives a ton of extra armor. "Free" rooms include Chaos, story rooms, midshops, and fountains
The number of those you get per biome varies pretty wildly
astral swift
oh true
ember bronze
Btw,someone was mentioning--it would be nice if we could show the chamber number
a habit you can make is pressing [boon screen button] right as you walk into a room--that will show the chamber number without opening the boon screen
true fable
the number of times ive thought it was midshop and took the chaos chamber
ember bronze
and you can just leave it up
true fable
only to walk into lernie with -50% movespeed or smth
bronze viper
Lol I've only done that a couple of times, but it doesn't feel good haha.
Especialy pre-1.0, where Elysium was the primary TD2 (the max at the time) check, so taking Chaos curses into Elysium without getting to shorten Elysium was... iffy at best.
honest kernel
are Athena's Defiance effects worth running on Stubborn Defiance?
bronze viper
Yes, they're some of the primary payoffs for SD
Just make sure to lose your SD in that chamber first
bronze viper
Yeah, it's part of the reason Owl Pendant is pretty much ubiquitous in Asphodel
For the shop Athenas
honest kernel
oh! the lava
interesting
assuming I didn't or can't lose the SD, is it still worth picking up for the effect?
bronze viper
Lol, though if I were being honest, the primary reason it's ubiquitous is that Asphodel is a nightmare without Divine Dash
honest kernel
oh for sure
bronze viper
No, never ever do that unless it's literlaly the last possible time Athena can be offered in a run
And the other option is trash
honest kernel
i see
ember bronze
I've started sometimes drifting away from Act2 Athena keepsake, if I get natural Athena in Act1
bronze viper
Also, something that's pretty easy to intuit but feels awful if you don't do it, in Styx, always take Athena rooms first
No matter what
true fable
what do you run in tartarus then
ember bronze
Picking up a DD is good, but also something that doesn't help you until Hades
true fable
just whatever is necessary for build
bronze viper
I've started sometimes drifting away from Act2 Athena keepsake, if I get natural Athena in Act1
@ember bronze I do this occassionally, especially for Duo reliant builds.
ember bronze
Whereas if I can finish my damage build in A2, I have a long time to look for Athena later
honest kernel
I run main offensive choice in Tartarus, or if I'm feeling lucky I run the Persephone flower
the latter usually doesn't work well for me though, lol
bronze viper
It only takes 1 time of getting Athena + sack in room 2, seeing the DDs you could be taking into Dad fight to not make that mistake ever again.
It still happens to me time to time that I will kill a miniboss very efficiently in an Athena room in Styx and forget that i have to eat damage to die. Joy.
ember bronze
Last Stand is both 1) less useful than a damage boon, until Hades, and 2) unsellable for Customs
so Asphodel isn't even the ideal time to be grabbing it
daring hedge
it's extremely worth it for hades alone though, EM4 in particular
ember bronze
right, you need it for Hades
but it's not great to get early over things that immediately help you
true fable
its kind of weird that having no SDs is a requirement for it idk
bronze viper
Yeah, I agree with the spirit of what you're saying @ember bronze, but in practice, having the DDs helps at every point in the run. Sometimes you screw up and die early, and the DD still did it's job even if it's not against Dad
true fable
like you have to know to take damage and die to get it
daring hedge
you also can't really control when/if athena is going to offer it
true fable
seems like a strange thing to incentivize
daring hedge
even if it's early, i will take it
bronze viper
If you didn't have the DD you had a 100% chance of losing there.
ember bronze
and you'd much rather have taken Divine Dash, and then not died
bronze viper
Okay, well first off I'm never taking DD over Divine Dash lol
And second you can't get DDs until you have any tier 1 boon
daring hedge
i don't think anyone is disputing that?
ember bronze
Of course I'll grab Last Stand if there's nothing I want more from Athena, which is often
bronze viper
I have strongly considered taking DD over Athena's Aid before, but I think i always end up taking the call anyway too
ember bronze
There can be times I want like 6 things from Athena
(Flourish/Dash/ME/DD/DD/Call)
Sure Footing doesn't hurt
bronze viper
Right, that's why even if I get Athena in Tartarus I'm still pretty much going to take Owl Pendant into Asphodel
ember bronze
yeah, it does usually work out that way
But in a different situation, like playing Rama, if I get Athena in act1
daring hedge
yeah, the pool can just decide to screw you over and not show athena for the entirety of asphodel, which has definitely happened to me after locking her in and not taking pendant
ember bronze
I might just try to finish Heart Rend or something with my Act2 keepsake
bronze viper
I think Rama's a bad example since you don't need much to finish runs, you just need to live.
mossy zinc
Sure Footing actually can hurt.
bronze viper
Sure Footing actually can hurt.
@mossy zinc It can, because of time, but EM4 has swayed my mind. I am taking that boon at any point in a run now if there's nothing better offered.
daring hedge
at high heat with rama, i'd still take pendant for more athena in asphodel, assuming EM4
heart rend is great if i can get it but yeah, survival towards the end is the priority
damage is not really lacking with smart hammer picks
mossy zinc
High heat, I think I'm only really taking Owl Pendant or Acorn into Asphodel.
Unless I have Owl Pendant in Tartarus, I guess.
bronze viper
If I get exactly Zeus + Aphrodite + Athena Divine Dash in Tartarus, I will strongly consider taking Aphro into Asphodel.
astral swift
lightning tartarus forever
bronze viper
(Or Zeus, the other one I didn't start one)
mossy zinc
Yeah, Smoldering Air is the one other option really.
bronze viper
And in that situation I may still take Owl Pendant
bronze viper
I wish they made White Lernie spawned heads not be able to curbstomp immediately after spawn
mossy zinc
That'd be nice.
Or the main head just let fall rocks everywhere you're dashing lol.
Ideally you just run out of the circles, but sometimes you gotta dash, and then it's just RNG if there's a new red circle where you're dashing or not.
bronze viper
The main White Lernie head doesn't bother me so much anymore, I just hate seeing the summoning bubbles, waiting to see the color that comes out then BAM headslam
mossy zinc
Yeah, don't stand next to summoned heads lol.
I also take Acorn for Lernie on Guan Yu.
Without Acorn, you just die to 2 hits lol.
bronze viper
Oh, right, I forgot about EM2 with GY. Not remembering it fondly lol
trim sigil
Existing is forbidden
bronze viper
The thing that makes me saltiest about the Lernie fight is actually the hitbox they have when they do their little lunges
It's not like it does a lot of damage, but it does not look like an attack lol
cerulean frigate
Yeah there are still a fair number of hitbox related things that tilt me
mossy zinc
I actually had 4 + main white Lernie the other day on Malphon. At that point just put your pad down and go get some water for the next run.
trim sigil
Tbh for me the biggest annoyance is how lingering the shockwave from head banging is
You spend two iframe dashes inside and it still hits you
mossy zinc
You can actually walk back into it after i-framing lol.
trim sigil
Gotta not enter it entirely
bronze viper
They made it better, but I still have found instances where I dashed away from a Skullcrusher and gotten hit where I stopped, a couple of miles away
It happens a lot less often now tbf
mossy zinc
Oh god.
cerulean frigate
Yep, generally all of the crappy hits involve aoe slams
mossy zinc
You just reminded me of how brutal that shockwave used to be lol.
bronze viper
For reference: https://imgur.com/tmbzbej
cerulean frigate
I'm also really not a fan of em4 urns spawning automatically both right underneath you and on top of each other
bronze viper
I was standing still
trim sigil
How about dad's p2 shockwave? When you dash through it with 3+ dashes, try to dash strike on last, and then get hit all across the arena
bronze viper
This was pre-1.0 though
trim sigil
🙃
daring hedge
shockwave caught on camera deforming itself to hit zagreus
mossy zinc
And that was already v.3something lol.
cerulean frigate
I've also taken damage from the dad phase shockwave moments after It's passed by safely
bronze viper
The expanding shockwaves all have some odd properties. I usually pay very close attention to dash over them lol.
mossy zinc
I kinda wish we could let some of the new high heat players from 1.0 do Nighty Night 32+ and see how they handle that.
I wanna see those reactions when they walk into a Bruiser Snakestone chamber.
cerulean frigate
Old MM
bronze viper
TFW Bruiser Wretched Thug has more life than Dad
mossy zinc
cerulean frigate
I've started to hate RI1 over AP1 actually, if you're picking between them. Losing dark foresight is so bad
bronze viper
RI1 is a lot harder than AP1
ember bronze
Agree, it's worse
mossy zinc
Oh, I actually encountered one lone Bruiser Snakestone in my 41 clear. https://youtu.be/euJWbeaslUw?t=2362
bronze viper
Lmao
bronze viper
I only played a bit of Nighty Night, and not high heat then, but I do remember that very clearly.
cerulean frigate
Like I had it off for just a few runs and just never a 3rd boon in Tartarus
Please purge your damage or crutch dash before entering Asphodel
mossy zinc
lol everybody complaining how hard it is with RI1 because they lose Dark Foresight. We didn't have Dark Foresight in the old days.
Y'all have it so easy now. 
trim sigil
I just get to dream of future days when not running RI4 would be considered treachery
cerulean frigate
i really like the mirror flipping options personally, though a lot of them are sort of just memes
fiery presence
ripe crane
I would try fiery on hestia if it were 100%
mossy zinc
There isn't much point in backstab damage in a pure cast build lol.
Unless you're going for Parting Shot.
bronze viper
Eh, depends. I end up attacking a lot on Hera and Achilles
mossy zinc
Which does . . . something involving backstab damage that nobody can agree on.
pure cast build
I end up attacking a lot
hollow lynx
nobody agrees on it bc nobody ever takes it 😛
mossy zinc
Impure cast builder confirmed.
bronze viper
Lol, but that's how it plays out. Sometimes you just don't have the casts lol
mossy zinc
I always take it.
cerulean frigate
parting shot is too powerful to ignore
bronze viper
It defies interpretation, like an Eldritch Cthulu
mossy zinc
I should sleep. I have school tomorrow.
cerulean frigate
and realistically if you're being offered parting shot you already have crutch dash
bronze viper
We're not saying Parting Shot is bad. We're saying that no one really knows exactly what it does.
trim sigil
It gives you a number. I can tell that much
trim sigil
and the number is positive so it might be really good
cerulean frigate
especially with phalanx shot which may or may not be a bug
bronze viper
Lol, it also affects your non-cast backstabs
hollow lynx
parting shot doesn't hurt! i know that much
trim sigil
Technically it does hurt if you wanted smoldering/reversal/ME, but eh
by stealing a duo chance that is
mossy zinc
Why would you want Deadly Reversal or Merciful End over Parting Shot?
hollow lynx
i mean sure, but like, whatever lol
true fable
it doesnt hurt unless you wanted literally any other duo is what im hearing
mossy zinc
They're not Lady Aphrodite boons. I don't get it.
true fable
LOL
trim sigil
Parting shot isn't aphro boon either. I dunno
hollow lynx
thunder flourish hurts when i want lightning strike
true fable
how is it not
mossy zinc
Parting Shot is from Lady Aphrodite + Lady Athena.
true fable
it's an aphro duo
mossy zinc
Yeah, she only has strong effects.
hollow lynx
blown kiss is fun
mossy zinc
Blown Kiss is great.
cerulean frigate
"at least it's not after party"
it's an inoffensive boon that makes a good cast a bit better
bronze viper
I love that After Party doesn't work with LC4. Because it would already do comparatively much less because of Stubborn Defiance.
So they clarified it and made sure you know it does literally 0
mossy zinc
It also just straight-up gives you +100% first-strike damage on everything lol.
cerulean frigate
the inconsistency across the board with LC and Supergiant's sheer attachment to HP loss/restoration based mechanics don't mesh well
bronze viper
It was more fun in pre-1.0 before the tooltips were fixed/tweaked
true fable
i got merciful end and deadly reversal by power couple and then died to a 4 sack
im angy
honest kernel
Is hades extreme measures much harder?
bronze viper
Yes
honest kernel
aight, not gonna try then lol
I almost got 32 heat, lost on hades, wouldve won if I had 10 more seconds
hard to fit anything for the tight deadline
bronze viper
Though you should probably try it at 10ish heat just to see how it works lol
tidal flame
oh yeah fair, don't do 32 heat em4 straight
cerulean frigate
i had a 32 rama run almost win em4 hades. we're talking like, 3% hp away from triggering Winter Harvest in the last phase close
i felt so bad
but em4 is 4 heat for a reason
bronze viper
😦 Yeah, that hurts
cerulean frigate
and you might as well consider it 7 heat if you have heightened security on between urns and tilt
lol i have a level 9 athena call because of sweet nectar
visual skiff
ive tried so many different aspects and heat combination i still cant clear 32 heat
wanton plover
take another look at your pact and think about what you’re dying to
honest kernel
@ripe crane Fiery Presence on Hestia is still good, just not quite as good
but it still one-shots most unarmored foes and fully strips armor
i just get hecked up by Benefits Package when I get the dudes that pulse shield-auras onto allies
and suddenly I need to shoot 4 times more than normal per enemy
Damage Control/Benefits Package (when they get that perk) are almost entirely why I'm giving up Hestia gun as my favorite in high heats
it makes me sad every time
trim sigil
Sort of same thing why I'm not motivated to push arthur strats
at the end of the day not being able to dc2 just cripples
honest kernel
yeah
ripe crane
The DC perk on a pack of skulls in like, room 4 as I was using Hestia was my first experience with high heat
It was not fun
honest kernel
oh yeah
i've gotten it on the mini-kamikaze chariots too
with FO2
needless to say, that run wasn't the run
ripe crane
Just let em chase you and blow up
trim sigil
Gotta be grateful flame wheels get to kill themselves, yea
ripe crane
I never attack them anymore
honest kernel
i didn't have athena dash, they were too fast and too numerous lol
it was the room where like 50 of them spawn one-by-one
trim sigil
Even on ranged aspects I prefer to lure them to death
honest kernel
i could've handled it better but their speed intimidated me lol
honest kernel
but yeah Hestia and Fiery are a match made in... well not heaven but you get the idea
just not optimal at high heats sadly
trim sigil
Well then again if goal is 40 you can avoid most of the straight up impossible pacts by maxing out on other bothers like HL
also em4 free real estate (not really)
honest kernel
you'd have to avoid DC and BP
which is what, 7-8 total points?
i mean yeah you could but it's just one pain for another
trim sigil
Indeed. Out of 63
honest kernel
i guess that's the point though lol
trim sigil
well 61 because ri4 is stupid
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/725021639506526249/769658175954878494/20201024232505_1.jpg
something like that for example
avoided FO2, DC, RI, AP, EM4 and somewhat fit in 40 anyway. If being a bit more "generous" and taking AP FO2 it would be already 48
Just that obviously every excess pact option is a painful stab
astral swift
@trim sigil no not to level it up I meant cause they're both red and on the top row and ugh
astral swift
i've done it at least twice lmao like
"man this run is good wait why am i missing 150 coins"
sly remnant
what aspect and what pacts
ebon night
I think Zagreus Shield
I’m avoiding hard labour, lasting consequences, forced overtime, routine inspection, heightened security and tight deadline.
I honestly don’t think it will be that hard
I won’t first try it though, that’s for sure
Heat 16 possibly, Heat 32 will probably take several tries
I’m going to regret saying that though as a low heat player
fickle mountain
i just learned zeus shield is kinda op
sly remnant
you can take AP1. I would not take AP2. you don't need it and it will frustrate you
ebon night
AP?
sly remnant
there's a pinned message with all abbreviations
fickle mountain
breezed thru 18 heat kinda ridiculous
ebon night
The pinned message doesn’t tell me what they do
sly remnant
ah. approval process. it eliminates choices from boon screens, pom screens, and hammers
ebon night
I think it will only be at one
sly remnant
should be manageable. CP (+15% health a level) will be harder thanyou think. every fight will take much longer
fickle mountain
tight deadline 1 is a freebie tho
ebon night
I might cheese a stubborn roots build
fickle mountain
2 is free if you can consistently get under 28
sly remnant
2 is pretty free i htink
fickle mountain
which i can do on all except shield on some occasions
ebon night
I can on low heat
fickle mountain
mostly hovering around mid 20s
ebon night
I like taking my time
fickle mountain
ive really been underestimating zeus shield
i thought it was trash but that's cuz i was using it like any other sheidl special
its basically a free dps machine
ebon night
It’s probably best shield 🙂
fickle mountain
had Heroic aphro special with 300%, holy moly
hades stood in that thing for 5400 dmg lmao
ebon night
Wow
cerulean frigate
it's pretty strong. it's just.. not very straightforward, you might say? one of the strengths of other aspects in general is that they are simple and strong
like the fists, you don't feel the need to diversify. just get merciful end and your build is super streamlined
even something like Poseidon sword, it doesn't seem so strong at a glance but it's very undemanding
ebon night
Yeah I can do that now
ebon night
Last I used Poseidon sword I was still levelling trinkets
cerulean frigate
why is it that the legendary i always see from a god is second wave lmao
Poseidon pls i don't want your meme boon
regal bane
Even with 4 death defiances going into the final boss, extreme measures hades handled me
Rip getting the 16 heat statue 😩
sly remnant
EM4 for 16 heat is....a lot
ripe crane
Since when is hestia not affected by hunter dash >:(
Also haven't we talked about Parting Shot giving you extra non-cast backstab damage in here? It does nothing with fiery presence
The backstab notification comes up but damage is the same
tough elk
i did this experiment the other day with zeus cast, parting shot, shadow presence
did 184 in the front, 273 in the back
so seems to be working alright
ripe crane
Yes but I'm taking about non-cast
tough elk
oh good point, also i just noticed it didn't give me +25%....
cerulean frigate
ripe crane
I did not F10 :( I was streaming though, maybe I can find and clip when I specifically tested and report it anyway
cerulean frigate
I mean, even just a report that says firey presence doesn't work with parting shot on non-cast damage is enough
tough elk
maybe the +25% is a lie? i only got +50% from shadow presence, and you got +0% apparently because of fiery presence
ripe crane
Hmmm wouldn't be surprised
ember bronze
Does damage blocked by Damage Control transfer through Rama?
bronze viper
It counts in full
Actually, not sure specifically what do you mean by the question? How damage is calculated or if Suffering counts as an instance of damage?
daring hedge
i don't think so. shared suffering needs actual damage done in the first place to work with
it's the same as attacking an invulnerable enemy; shared suffering will not transfer anything
bronze viper
I can test it in a bit, I'm pretty sure blue hearts allow damage to be dealt to them
ember bronze
Also separately, how useful do you find Blinding Flash if playing Rama and have Divine Dash
daring hedge
it's okay but not a priority
certainly gets some work with triple shotgun or some twin backstabs. it's not useless
bronze viper
Yeah, I'm right. If enemies are suffering and you hit an enemy with a blue heart, full damage is transferred
tidal flame
that's a neato interaction
bronze viper
I assume it's for the same reason you can see damage numbers on blue hearts
The damage is "dealt" but then replaced by removing a blue heart
Don't @ me, I'm kind of a pro at Power Shotting blue hearts off of enemies 
tidal flame
@bronze viper
daring hedge
yeah, i simply forgot damage numbers still happened upon hitting DC hearts
tidal flame
do you take Perfect shot tail?
daring hedge
consistent enough with how hitting invuln foes doesn't transfer any shared suffering damage because no damage numbers happen
i do
bronze viper
I think it's my second favorite behind Twin?
tidal flame
how much does it help? i usually can't find space to power shot with rama
daring hedge
but if i'm on my first hammer, and i have a choice between perfect and twin, i'll likely take twin first, then hope for perfect as a supplement later
bronze viper
Learning how to find power shots with Rama is pretty important. You can live without it, especially against like, Numbskulls or Flamewheels or Slam Dancers (most of the time), but pretty much any enemy gives you an opening somewhere.
daring hedge
charging your dash-strike power shots will tend to come naturally after reacting and dashing out of the way from a foe's attack that leaves them somewhat open
ember bronze
Oh btw
What was the deal with turning up brightness in EM4 P3?
(I'm about to try it)
daring hedge
just makes it easier to see things without squinting
nothing more than that really
EM4 p3 darkens the edges of the screen, and turning up your global brightness naturally makes even the darkened edges brighter. there's still a border darkness filter that you kind of can't avoid at all anyways, but anything that helps, you know
ember bronze
How it started (P3 of my run just now): https://imgur.com/a/Uo8wF7p
How it ended: https://imgur.com/a/aw1rTCa
ember bronze
no video--I'll try to keep it on for when I try above 40 maybe
but I only got whacked for 100 by a spear once
daring hedge
interesting choice going for just DC1 instead of DC2; rama handily takes care of DC2 just from properly applying shared suffering
ember bronze
Yeah I wasn't sure how bad it would be
DC2 would probably have been better than JS
(once I got Drunken Flourish, clearly would have been)
true fable
i feel like im still gettin smacked around without SD on 32 heat but ive also heard you dont need LC4 SD to make it in 32
ember bronze
You don't, my first 32s were without it
but once I got used to it, started liking it
true fable
i feel like i dont need it im just kind of lazy and want to cut corners tbh
ember bronze
it's not just adding 3 heat from LC, as what you get for it
true fable
LOL
ember bronze
it's also really efficient--no money spent on Kisses of Styx during the run
true fable
still cant believe i blew it after getting ME in tartarus on fists :^)
ember bronze
and if you get Patroclus, your DDs for Hades are better than they'd normally be
bronze viper
Wow. I haven't played Hestia in ages. I forgot how awkward this weapon can be in so many situations lol.
Surprisingly easy to miss with something with screen wide range and auto aim
true fable
thats how i feel with rocket bomb on any rail
just casually miss a point blank rocket lol
cerulean frigate
i really wish there were more aspect specific hammers for stuff like Arthur
true fable
theres always lucifer
cerulean frigate
i think a "casts are empowered when fired within the aura" thing could be cool af
mossy zinc
All the Attack hammers are practically aspect-specific hammers for Excalibur.
cerulean frigate
lol
ember bronze
What are people's favorite hammers for Arthur anyway?
daring hedge
i like greater consecration, shadow slash, double edge the most, probably
daring hedge
oh geez me either
ember bronze
Is Dash Nova likely to be much different from the usual special into dash?
daring hedge
but without the snap... rest in peace
mossy zinc
untold sigil
i died again in tartarus with gilga qwq
untold sigil
if you cant get ME on fists, what should i do?
loud coral
What aspect are you using?
untold sigil
gilga or demeter
loud coral
For Demeter:
Divine Strike, Deadly/Drunken/Heartbreak Flourish (I prefer deadly but it's up to you), any cast (Flood/Electric Shot are good picks), Divine/Hunter/Tidal Dash, and any call
loud coral
For Gilga idk, I use Tempest Strike so I probably don't have the best opinion on that aspect lul
edgy arrow
idk about drunken flourish on dem
if you’re going divine strike, ideal special would be arty to qualify for deadly reversal
the main other option is a lightning strike build
for gil who knows lol
that aspect does ME and nothing else
limber ocean
Drunken Flourish on Demeter's doesn't sound good to me. It's like, instant burst damage, but not really.
edgy arrow
^
yeah it’s aphro/arty for damage, or athena (to qualify for ME) on demeter special i think
loud coral
Arty is busted for Demeter special imo, same with Chiron
wraith imp
What are people's favorite hammers for Arthur anyway?
@ember bronze
definitely greater consecration, i never not take it when offered.
i also like double edge.
cerulean frigate
losing on timer with tempest strike sea storm bow. it's almost like tempest strike is terrible
wild spire
i find its better on faster weapons so you can make better use of the wall smashes, but im also not a great player probably
cerulean frigate
it's just not enough % damage and the knockback is pretty low for tempest strike
tempest flourish or flood shot will do that so much more reliably
trim sigil
What are people's favorite hammers for Arthur anyway?
I tend to prefer shadow slash, double edge. Greater consecration too except i use special a total of 3 times in a run
astral swift
what are the favourite hammers of eris? My guess is delta chamber, targetting system, and the... armor one i forget what it's called but i could be wrong
plush sinew
the one that also damages u with the special :^)
but yeah i use delta chamber whenever is see it not sure about the rest
astral swift
yeah delta chamber def takes priority
what about well of charon buffs? does anyone bother with those?
plush sinew
not really unless i got excess gold when clearin satyr rooms cuz every lil bit helps at hades
esp at em4
trim sigil
I only ever look out for touch of styx, or maybe jerkies/nail of talos before hades
astral swift
i take the attack one sometimes in elysium cause -screw- elysium lmao
@trim sigil i had touch of styx and touch of styx black into hades one time was a good time.
tho tbh i don't even know if those stack but idc
trim sigil
They do
astral swift
then good
trim sigil
2 regular and 1 black is 100% hp
astral swift
oof
good times
black is always the one to take right like i get tempted by the attack one sometimes but 15 gd rooms is like
well it's like 15 rooms lmao
trim sigil
Unless i really feel like attack its always about the touch yes
astral swift
what do you guys usually take from eurydice?
astral swift
yeah that's what i figured. that one seems the most versatile of the 3
plush sinew
if i got the boons i want, the rarity upgrade
but if not yet then the rarity upgrade for future boons
astral swift
like sissyphus is always coin, patroclus is always tosb, but yeah eurydice
i'm never sure until I'm in the room lmao
plush sinew
esp if i got like common greatest reflex
i always try to roll rarity upgrade on that
trim sigil
Most of the time ends up being nectar for me because rarity is rng with 4+ boons and poms aren't quite impactful compared to duos and such
But picking is the sweetest part
astral swift
nectar is rari-- oh you mean rarity increase
trim sigil
ambrosia delight for rarity, yeah
astral swift
Oh. Side note. I noticed something. Why does the LC4 not affect patroclus' hydralite gold?
effect*? god I'm bad at that
astral swift
if it DOES, the text is wrong.
it def said +30% per room for me when I was there last time
trim sigil
the text can be wrong, there were a few precedents before
astral swift
Fair enough. I won't risk it and will just f10 report it next time i'm hanging with my guncle
trim sigil
But I never felt compelled to take hydralite either way so can't tell
astral swift
me neither tbh, at that point you're already healing from sd mostly
trim sigil
If it's lc4, it's stubborn defiance time
If it's sd, then touch of styx is obvious choice
Yeah exactly
astral swift
I'm so mad. I just had a really good run and lost to the stupid ass serpent stone miniboss because it sat in a place i couldn't hit it with gun -.-
is the rarity increase thing from well fo charon worth it. No, right? especially since it's like
almost 200 with cf2 on
trim sigil
Probably not
cerulean frigate
depends how badly you need a specific duo boon
charged volley is Fair and Balanced™️
ebon night
I beat Heat 32 on my second attempt 🙂
I would've first tried but lost two DDs to Charon 😦
and didn't think I'd need tooth
cerulean frigate
it's not really worth it to fight charon at higher heat
takes too long and hits too hard
ripe crane
Now those DD replacements are cheaper
ripe crane
(you also don't need to buy them if you don't die twice to Charon)
charged volley is Fair and Balanced™️
@cerulean frigate trying to figure out what combination of boons would get you to over 100x base damage
I'm guessing concentrated volley is in there since the numbers are scaling up
dapper creek
Finally beat 16 heat after several tries. Basically bullrushed and dash striked with Shield + Ares Doom attack the entire run
Have no idea how I'm gonna go about doing 32 heat 
wispy bluff
Do you guys just stick a weapon and ramp up the heat? I've been doing each heat level with each weapon
Working my way up
honest kernel
Trying t get out first with all weapon
dapper creek
Maybe with a similar Chiron bow build to what I used another run, with Relentless and Concentrated volley augments, and poseidon special heroic lvl3, and just try and not get hit 
I use whatever weapon I feel like/whichever one has the darkness buff
honest kernel
Chiro bow, with the spam attack with doom and the tech with Critical and it's PERFECT
dapper creek
which tech is that?
dapper creek
no, the one with Critical that you mentioned
dapper creek
the one that gives critical to every damage type, or the regular attack one? I'm assuming you mean ares doom is in special for the special lock-on spam
honest kernel
YES
dapper creek
honest kernel
dapper creek
with heroic lvl3 poseidon tech it's also very fun, specially when you can spam wallslams 
I melted through Charon
plush sinew
ive only fought against charon like once
does charon get knocked back
by poseidon boons
honest kernel
Charon is hard to fight
plush sinew
or is he like immune to that like bosses
dapper creek
he got knocked back
I'm like 99% sure
cause I'd get in close to tag him, then dash back and spam special into him and he'd end up on the other side of the arena, which was my plan to keep avoiding his oar
unless I hallucinated everything
trim sigil
He definitely can be knocked back a little bit. Even with zag shield
graceful dust
I dont really think charon is a hard fight. You just dont have enough practice beucause its relatively rare
cerulean frigate
it's not a tough fight, he just has a ton of hp
and if you get hit it's enough to turn off high confidence at best in one go
ripe crane
Running high confidence at high heat is pretty rare
celest cloak
are the blade rift effects just bad or am I missing something? Because I've done a few runs where I've gotten every support ability and pommed them up and they still feel ineffective.
bronze viper
It's Hunting Blades or bust for those builds, typically
ripe crane
Definitely shoot for hunting blades, but I think the cast can be good on Achilles even without it
crystal iron
engulfing vortex is kinda like hunting blades, except you don't bring the rifts towards enemies, but instead bring the enemies towards the rift.
edgy arrow
i mean, why not get both?
bronze viper
Yeah, it's definitely nice. Blade Rifts need all the help they can get tbh
ripe crane
It's low floor, high ceiling. Low floor doesn't always cut it at high heat.
bronze viper
It's kind of an odd balancing scheme, because SGG chose wisely to make the build slightly irritating to get to, because the payoff is enormous
But the cost is... well... Slicing Shot
edgy arrow
i swear standard slicing shot does less damage than no cast boon at all
you give up boiling blood for... uh...
well, you give up boiling blood
bronze viper
It kills Flamewheels well
That's also my defense of Blade Dash lmao
It's about all I've got
ripe crane
It is good for eating groups of enemies
bronze viper
On Achilles it is
I think we're meming mostly on the value Slicing Shots you're funneled into taking occasionally lol
ripe crane
Aaaah sorry. Yeah I suppose it's not good on much else
I tried it on Beo yesterday. Very awkward
Eris cast build with rift blade is coming next >:D
bronze viper
Lol, Go full meme with Eris buffed Vengeful Mood as well
ripe crane
I like where this is headed
bronze viper
(why doesn't Vengeful Mood get offered before you get the Revenge boon, like Smoldering Air?)
edgy arrow
you don't need vengeful mood with hazard eris
why get free revenge procs when you can proc your revenge whenever you want?
dawn forum
back to the engulfing vortex, why does it seem like enemies can just walk out of it if they're not directly in the center? Where as Rip Current will pull foes from very far away? and it also adds such a small amount of time to the cast, where demeter will add a whole 2 seconds.
it just doesn't seem worth the steep investment. even if you're able to get vicious cycle and hunitng blades
bronze viper
Because Rip Current is good :3
edgy arrow
its absolutely worth it if you're going vicious cycle and hunting blades
its a prereq for vicious cycle
bronze viper
And it's merely a reward bestowed from our Heavenly Developers for picking the best Call lmao
edgy arrow
and its better than black metal
sly remnant
its important to remember not every build is designed to be good. fidget spinners are mostly bad because they are there (relatively) weapon agnostic. their payoff is huge if you get everything. not EVERY build is going to be good. its impossible. fidget spinners are literally that one run where the game just keeps giving it to you
dawn forum
I'm running around heat 17-20 now, and i've been trying to make these blade rift build work and I just can't seem to figure it out, even when I have all the boons we're talking about.
bronze viper
Huh, even on Achilles?
cinder cave
i mean isn't 2.5x damage on cast just insane
dawn forum
I'm mostly just trying to find more diversity outside of Zeus / Poseidon and Ice Crytsals.
cinder cave
in a complete build
Last time I used Achilles I was just tping blasting whole rooms away with Blown Kiss
so I imagine a more filled out build would be insane
bronze viper
Yeah, as @ripe crane mentioned, even Slicing Shot by itself isn't useless on Achilles, and that's before the build gets going
bronze viper
Doing a cast build on Poseidon that doesn't lodge casts is just a bad Eris lmao
ripe crane
And as much as I like it on Achilles, I have to concede that rift blade is not a good choice on anything else
cinder cave
Yah but