except zag eventually dying again
#h1-high-heat-strategies
static plover
tidal flame
Zag dies? I did not get that far into the story 😦 I am sad now
static plover
yeah, zag dies a lot, sorry you had to find out this way
fallow stream
I found rending claws + frost strike to also be extremely effective on gilgamesh
I want to try a frost strike/lightning dash/cold fusion build on it soon
wraith imp
what is "gamma warden" referring to in the linked pic above?
fallow stream
That's just a trophy ranking for trading in resources after the final, final, final ending
I dunno how high it goes, it does nothing though. Just a title.
Once you unlock the resource manager in game, you can trade for medals/titles
wraith imp
interesting. i still haven't completed the story mode so i wasn't aware of that. thank you!
static plover
yeah, it's vaguely mentioned in the patch notes
limber sorrel
What bow would you say is the best for heat?
thin harbor
rama is better than Chiron now?
tidal flame
Rama made higher heat last patch. Doesn't mean that it's better, but fwiw.
although Chiron had a nice buff at 1.0 so who knows
craggy carbon
How necessary is God Mode for higher heat?
honest charm
not
limber sorrel
It's more so a matter of what you're picking in the tree I would say
If you go and take forced overtime x2 with the random elite buff perk x 2
I pray you have god mode on
craggy carbon
I've been priortizing EM for Heat so far, but I've reached a point where I need to start branching out to other punishments
honest charm
god mode is an accessability option, so you can use it to get the top-tier SGG story if you aren't a serious gamer, or have poor reflexes, or just want an easier game
whatever the case may be
but if you need god mode, or just want the game to be easier, you probably also aren't the kind of person who would do really high heat
craggy carbon
That's the rerolls and the buffs to perk rarities right?
limber sorrel
yeah those
also the coin increase is a easy one to take
it's really possible to beat the game without buying anything
craggy carbon
I don't disagree with that
limber sorrel
You do or don't?
you used a double negative
craggy carbon
I agree
limber sorrel
Yeah but ya never know
I think once you pass the mirror heat & coin price you're left with some more rough options
vivid crater
any good videos of high heat ||extreme 4||? i beat it on first try with shield at 24 heat (20's my baseline) but i'm struggling to imagine how i would do this if it was higher
or i guess i could with shield, but on other weapons i feel like you'd need a really good set of boons
limber sorrel
Honestly think extreme 4 might not be the best choice for increasing heat
adding a ||3rd boss phase to hades ||makes it to where you're probably even more strapped for time and would make forced overtime harder to slot in for free heat
stoic meteor
do you mean tight deadline instead of forced overtime?
vivid crater
oh i'm not exactly aiming for the high heat some of the players here are since i'm pretty satisfied at getting everything to 28+, but I'm just thinking about it
i actually wouldn't even know how to do it on 24 bow, i think
he's too fast
(for me)
some of the oldies here are amazing though so I was just wondering if anyone recorded
limber sorrel
Yeah I did
also note to myself and everyone else never take 2 approval process I'm in ||styx with no attack boon using rama, I had artemis special with crit supplements with marked bonus crit chance and crit damage then I got forced to take demeter special over artemis special, I then sold hunters mark went to artemis and got hunter's mark with and my only crit generation is pressure points||
foggy ruin
yo bablo have you given 40+ heat gilgamesh a shot yet?
rough ermine
I've been getting into the mid 30s now
and it seems like with AP and UC
is it better to take family favorite over privileged status?
static plover
Depends on the build
rough ermine
since it's really inconsistent to get a privileged status setup
yeah but like
you won't know if you have a build
static plover
And from my experience it's personal preference
Well if you're using PS you're more than likely going to aim to build into it
rough ermine
the problem is I often reach theseus without PS
and that makes the fight super slow
static plover
If that's the case Family favourite sounds like it would suite you more
rough ermine
hell even max level JS+CP makes elysium elites a handful without it
static plover
It's more consistent damage but will usually be less than PS
rough ermine
especially butterfly miniboss
static plover
That miniboss can be a bit of a pain yeah
rough ermine
actually there's been something I wanted to post in the feedback channel for a while
about MM barge of death
it seems maybe undertuned?
you just nuke the crystal and be done with it
static plover
If you don't have that nuke it can be a pain
rough ermine
ah
I'd put that fight on the same level as witches' circle
but then again, might just be that MM power couple is way harder than the rest
static plover
Yeah MM power couple i find to be difficult too, so more often than not will use a companion charge on them
rough ermine
aside from zipping around the battlefield does MM butterfly actually do anything different
static plover
Not that I've noticed
vague fossil
Do you think EM4 is worth including in 32 on Chiron?
On one side it make it 28 on everything before last fight
One the other it's EM4
proud jay
yo bablo have you given 40+ heat gilgamesh a shot yet?
@foggy ruin not yet, and im not sure if i want to
@vague fossil i feel like you want either EM4 or FO2. the fight is really tough with both
foggy ruin
not yet, and im not sure if i want to
not feeling the weapon? i had problems with it until someone told me to hold dash and strike together so i could cosplay wolverine
bronze viper
Is the Curse of Longing thing a meme or is it worth building towards? Finalllyyy got GY (after about 50 runs wtf) on my Switch save so I can start unlocking the other hiddens.
mossy zinc
People called my Divine Strike build on Malphon a meme lol. Do what you think is right.
ember bronze
I mostly learned my way up to 32 without reading discord much and I think some of my build habits are weird
(actually I don't even know anymore)
is Fated Persuasion still weird?
and Family Favorite?
ember bronze
I'm glad people came around, heh 😛
mossy zinc
I converted everyone to Persuasion for high heat. 
ember bronze
A girl after my own heart
bronze viper
When people started learning that everything is additive, the +15ish% you get from PS is a lot less compelling, since it has requirements
mossy zinc
ember bronze
Yeah, I started the game during Nighty Night, and mostly worked out my playstyle just by what made sense to me while working up Heats
I felt like a lot of people had habits formed around the time when only the purple talents existed
(also, PS and FF are both additive, no? So that's a wash)
bronze viper
If I had to guess, besides it being available first, a lot of people preferred Authority because it's easy to remember the times where you just get exactly what you want, instead of the majority of the time where you spend 6 or 8 and settle. That issue also exists with Persuasion but you get 3 choices per usage, and it can apply to so many more things.
mossy zinc
It's just the effects of RI1 UC and AP1/AP2 that helped people see the light.
ember bronze
I still don't play RI1 for 32
mossy zinc
Yeah, that's a good idea.
bronze viper
RI1 is pretty easy, but it's no fun. Boons are sweet
ember bronze
2 heat just doesn't seem like a payoff for using all whites most of the time
yeah
(Also, 2 Heat is not enough for AP2 either)
bronze viper
Also, the new 20% buff on the Green side of the rarity mirror talent is actually kinda legit
ember bronze
Yeah, I thought those rows got way harder after the Blood Price rearrangement
I use 20% boon chance and 20% epic chance now
Had to part with my legendary chance and actually not always get legendaries now
bronze viper
Dark Foresight
ember bronze
But Epic chance is a really nice way to not always get stuck with whites
and Dark Foresight helps a ton with Customs in the mix, among other things
bronze viper
Dark Foresight at 20% gives you a pretty noticeable chunk of extra health in a run.
And yeah, extra boons for Customs
And anything that makes Darkness rooms less likely is A-OK
proud jay
in fact i don't think RI1 is worth it unless you're pushing 50+
DF is just that broken atm
trim sigil
I'm not sure why it was buffed in first place ngl
Unless 40% rare boons were considered majorly better
proud jay
i messed around a bit with the old +10% DF but it didn't seem like it was doing much
mint sinew
I dont think 15 qualifies as high heat, but anyhow. do people usually run a lot of alt mirror talents? i think i run all reds except for family favorite atm
ember bronze
The patch notes say they fixed DF somehow
Maybe it wasn't playing nice with the bad luck protection before?
frigid crane
anyone have a general guide for theseus and the minotaur?
ember bronze
Charm the Minotaur 😛
frigid crane
ha i failed
honest charm
it takes some practice, but you should get it soon
shell sluice
wraith imp
after beating 43 heat with gilgamesh, i died just now to hades on 5 heat with gilgamesh.
lulz
consistency is not my strong suit...
foggy ruin
what were your pact options?
mossy zinc
lol that's not too unusual. I never really play serious sub 32.
Hard to take any enemies serious when I can have all the boons I want easily and spam Epic Calls every 5 seconds in 95% of my runs.
wraith imp
what were your pact options?
@foggy ruin
hard labor 1
calesthenics program 1
forced overtime 1
lol that's not too unusual. I never really play serious sub 32.
@mossy zinc
Even on low heat, I play the boss fights seriously.
But I get a little too wound up sometimes and make all kinds of inexplicable errors.
mossy zinc
I only pay enough attention to just barely make it lol.
I probably focus more in regular chambers than vs bosses.
wraith imp
Quick question about gilgamesh: given the slower special, is it better to just rely heavily on attack+dash attack?
Like 400 damage + maim is cool and all but i'm beating most enemies before that triggers. seems to me maim is not a good choice unless up against heavily armored enemies (especially the tanky ones b/c of benefits package).
mossy zinc
You did 43 Heat with it. You're the expert now.
I think that's the highest heat with it now?
I haven't even unlocked it lol. The few runs I did, Asterius wanted to talk about other things.
wraith imp
You did 43 Heat with it. You're the expert now.
@mossy zinc
lol, i wish
i did 43 heat merciful doom which is an enormous crutch for a goofball like me.
wraith imp
In b4 AAAAMMMMMIIIIIIRRRRRRRRR removes that from the game while buffing lightning rod. It'll be a sad day for me.
foggy ruin
apparently they think lightning rod is just fine. they had a golden opportunity to do something with it in 1.0
wraith imp
there's a running joke on some twitch streams that lightning rod is Amir's favorite boon so we think he keeps it in the game (or reworks it) to keep trolling us.
trim nebula
What is like, the easiest condition for 1 heat?
harsh birch
tight deadline, in my opinion. The 1.0 update lets you keep any remaining time you have between zones, which makes the first level of TD basically free heat
unless you're exploring every inch of every room for some reason, you will not have to worry about running out of time at all.
mint sinew
jesus EM4 can be brutal sometimes, i just got rekt by the phase 1 adds being ||the skull crusher and the wretched sneak||
alpine dirge
What are the worst pact conditions?
foggy ruin
can I just say EM4 with FO2 is bonkers. i can get him to phase 3 consistently but then i get bopped by 100 things from off vision hahahahaha
it's a fun fight
foggy ruin
does hades heal himself a set amount of times in phase 3? or does he just continuously do so?
vague fossil
I'm also wondering if there if a way to prevent him healing. It seems it's related to green urns, so do I destroy them as they respawn?
foggy ruin
yes he chooses urns to heal himself. my last build didn't give me the luxury of focusing on them and i just chose to wail on him while he's open, even if it was a net loss for me. or i'm just being impatient lol. i'll try focusing more on the urns later.
i got the power couple plus doomstone as his adds lmao. it was crazy
wraith imp
i'm asking this on this channel as well because i figured someone might have already encountered this...
i have a question about new keepsake (which gives +1 pom randomly every 4 encounters when maxed):
if a player gets sweet nectar (aphrodite/poseidon duo boon which adds additional +1 on top to all poms), does the duo boon increase efficacy of new keepsake as well by additional +1?
respond
/chaos impersonator
wraith imp
I found the answer to my own question with a run. Sweet nectar does NOT affect the random poms of the new keepsake.
tidal flame
Good to know!
viscid fulcrum
Damn really? I guess it makes sense, but it's a shame.
alpine dirge
Btw with the new keepsake.
Couldn't you do a single boon run
And just max the hell out of it?
Could be a funny weekly challange
viscid fulcrum
Yeah, but toward the higher end of the poms the difference is so small.
Unless you got Bounce Lighting or something, idk if it'd be fun by like the end of Asphodel.
frozen holly
could go dio
proud jay
EM4 is beating the crap out of me
proud jay
finally beat it at 48 heat
i had a few very close attempts at 50 heat but CP is just so tough
minor rover
whats so significant about 32 heat i hear 32 mentioned specifically a lot
waxen relic
It's the last skelly reward
waxen relic
Yes
minor rover
thanks
acoustic glen
Uhm I didn’t know where else to ask this since I don’t know how to do the spoiler tag. But what are the “easy” options for low level heats? I am on heat 2 lol
tardy path
Routine Inspection, Tight deadline and Extreme measures (all at their lowest level) are essentially free heat
acoustic glen
Ok! Thank you!
proud jay
i'd argue leaving RI until you push 50+, since DF is just that good
@acoustic glen https://i.imgur.com/9y8mJOl.png
mossy zinc
@proud jay did you make that?
proud jay
made by @pastel badge afaik
wintry sluice
that's very helpful, thank you
pastel badge
@mossy zinc Any feedback before i work on it more later?
wintry sluice
The * for DC1 is never explained (obviously something like aspect of Hestia, it's not super easy)
pastel badge
Yeah
The current state it's in was to make sure i can get a visualization working properly
wintry sluice
👍 i felt it was easy to digest the information
pastel badge
I'm specifically avoiding specifics like aspects, talents, and builds. More-so trying to make it something people can use to learn with whatever they prefer playing with.
It's also not for high heats, as noted in the description.
Just starting out, to filter out the FAQ
mossy zinc
No feedback, just thought I'd maybe get some insights into what @proud jay thinks of the pacts. Apparently not.
pastel badge
Once i write them all out i'm sure he will.
I'm going to go through all of them and give a brief summary of their interactions and effects.
mossy zinc
I don't think a table like that really works because it depends too much on what you combine with what.
pastel badge
Yeah, that's why it's only for starting out as a new player.
It's impractical otherwise.
mossy zinc
TD3 at low heat is free. TD3 with JS etc. is something else entirely.
pastel badge
Way too much variation
mossy zinc
But for a lot of new players TD3 would probably be impossible even without any other pacts.
Whereas for me it's free heat lol.
pastel badge
Pretty much
I'm surprised a lot of people still struggle with 36 minutes, as playing to win as a mentality vastly supersedes efficiency.
mossy zinc
I would make clear that it's aimed at beginners in the image.
pastel badge
It's going to be much bigger than that picture
static plover
some don't like the time pressure
mossy zinc
And if it it's aimed at beginners, move TD3 down to F for difficulty.
I'd also flip it so that the easy ones are at the bottom and the difficult ones are at the top. Just more intuitive that way. And not use a lettering system for the tiers. I don't think that's easy.
7 tiers also seems like too much. Just 5 or even just 3 would be plenty for beginners.
You'll actually have more accuracy with fewer tiers.
wintry sluice
I think it may also depend on what the goal of the player is. For people who are aiming to get better at the game and get to high heat, i've found the advice to learn to play with MM2 , FO2, EM2 really helpful
mossy zinc
It's easy to gauge what's easy, medium, and hard. It's a lot more difficult to gauge if something is "extremely hard, very hard, hard" if you try to differentiate that much.
And if I'm new, I don't care for that much detail anyway. I just want to know what's easy, intermediate, or hard.
pastel badge
I could shrink the lettering, the idea is to have those 3 categories, but free and anti-fun at both ends. As for flipping it, i don't think that would be good, since F would be the easiest, sounds weird.
mossy zinc
That's why I'm saying not to use the letters anyway. It's not intuitive if S is easy or S is hard.
If you just name them "easy, intermediate, hard", that's intuitive.
pastel badge
That sounds better.
pastel badge
With the amount of listings, it became very cluttered to read, the separation of the letters and numbers were annoying, at least for me.
Trying to separate visually, rather
If i could i would recolor the numbers, but i don't know a script to do that, might even look bad still
mossy zinc
The brackets around HL 1–5 etc. are redundant.
pastel badge
Yeah i was thinking that too, it looked a lot different before
There was no border separation
mossy zinc
It's a good idea to make something like that for beginners, anyway.
pastel badge
Yeah, figured it would be good to curb streamers having to answer these actually complicated questions
austere cape
we could make this a poll, where people vote on how they perceive the difficulty of each condition is, and then use the results to make a tier list
gilded tundra
Isn't it already super clear in the image that it's aimed towards beginners?
I don't know how it could be more clear. It literally has bold font and says this is meant as a guideline for starting out.
mossy zinc
Title.
mossy zinc
I don't think there's worth in a poll on this. You want educated opinions, not just throw in a bunch of opinions.
honest charm
so poll the speedrunning discord
mossy zinc
Educated opinions.
Speedrunners play mostly at 0 Heat, anyway. That's not very relevant lol.
pastel badge
5+ depending on what category, but not a good reference for pact difficulties
proud jay
i do 12 heat
for speedruns
i'd like 15 heat but can't think of a good way to reach that
rapid basalt
On top of that image showing the easier vs harder pact options, is there a more or less agreed list of the easiest way to do 32 Heat for the statue?
mystic ice
I find that Jury Summons isn't terribly dangerous while that chart puts it at 3
forest vortex
Does Swift Strike affect Hestia's Empowered shot?
proud jay
jury summons does make things harder for certain weapons
mystic ice
i think it makes things slower more often than more dangerous
mossy zinc
You also do 45+ with 60 different aspects. I think your feedback is probably the most valuable for a pact ranking like that.
honest charm
60 different aspects.
what
proud jay
@rapid basalt imo 32 heat setup depends on your weapon choice, and a little bit on your overall playing style
mossy zinc
@honest charm that's from a recent study I read on the internet.
If you said a pact was hard and 50 people in the speedrun discord said it was easy, I'd take your word over all 50.
honest charm
I assume you're talking to bablo, not me
mossy zinc
I'm talking to the #1 Hades player.
daring hedge
she's talking to the haelian in your profile pic
proud jay
can't wait for wriste to beat me in hermes cup so people stop with this nonsense
mossy zinc
What nonsense? You hold the most records lol.
rapid basalt
y'all got such sick times and heat clears
pastel badge
#TeamVorime
honest charm
Vorime is nuts
proud jay
i consider myself lucky that vorime didn't have the time to beat my all weapons record in early access
mossy zinc
I'm referring to high heat, anyway. Vorime doesn't really do high heat.
honest charm
I'd like to mention that the only speedrun on the 1.0 boards is a meme
besides bablo's
mossy zinc
Like I don't do speedruns at all.
proud jay
i likely won't do a lot of high heat in 1.0
rapid basalt
Tight deadline is so much easier now than before. It's barely even that stressful on low-mid heat levels
proud jay
or the ones i do won't have points in RI or AP
mossy zinc
Haven't you already done more high heat in 1.0 than anyone? lol
proud jay
idk
mossy zinc
I want to put some 40+ on the board when I get the chance. Not sure if I care for 50+ at the moment. I just don't get to play enough for that. Was different when I was grinding boss fight practice and stuff every day for hours.
daring hedge
i know bablo has like, long since done this, but decided to get the rest of the weapons to a 45 minimum just because https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/654076105321480226/758353847721918464/20200923102703_1.jpg
mossy zinc
Nice! Congrats!
honest charm
nice
daring hedge
thank you!
proud jay
while you matched my nemesis record, it's probably much harder now, so gz!
daring hedge
thanks, yeah i decided to try your dark foresight endorsement on that run and, wow
it's incredibly noticeable
proud jay
yeah dark foresight makes such a huge difference it's just insane
mossy zinc
I got to Hades phase 1 at 40 Heat with bow last week on a Twin Shot seed. I thought I was better with bow now after practicing up to 19 heat lol.
I guess I am, though, because the last time I attempted 40 or 32 with bow, I never got anywhere near that far, I think. 
proud jay
bow is better now too
mossy zinc
So you're saying I didn't improve at all, I just get carried. 
proud jay
daring hedge
i mean, getting to hades at 40 heat in general means you're more than competent at it
we just all have chronic Very High Standards syndrome
mossy zinc
True lol.
honest charm
boolying the bablo is not to be tolerated
just like boolying anyone else
mossy zinc
In my head, 40 is the baseline for halfway competent.
Or maybe more like, if I don't beat 40, I'll fail everybody's expectations and look weak. Which makes no real sense lol.
"Wow, she's struggling with 40? I thought she's supposed to be one of the best . . . "
honest charm
nyaanyaa mewmew just called me incompetent 😢
daring hedge
yeah i know what that's like... the impetus for getting 45s was me thinking "huh 40 is a little low for these weapons" which is the most ridiculous thing to consider for like, 95% of Hades' player base
mossy zinc
Not true.
honest charm
got em
mossy zinc
If 40 is halfway competent, then your heat could be like a quarter competent?
mossy zinc
What's the highest heat you've done, though?
pastel badge
i had a few very close attempts at 50 heat but CP is just so tough
@proud jay Have you tried the bugged ME with Chaos Shield?
proud jay
Bugged how?
honest charm
as in the doom procs multiple times?
pastel badge
Yeah
sterile sedge
Have you tried the bugged ME with Chaos Shield?
@pastel badge
What does ME stand for in this case?
pastel badge
Merciful End.
sterile sedge
Ah yes, I really should be getting down these names
Does merciful end totally null the benefits from Curse of Longing?
wraith imp
ares attack, athena special, athena dash for merciful end is my preferred build zeus shield
but this morning i had a aphrodite attack, poseidon special (with leveled up razor shoals), zeus dash, and sea storm with charged shot + empowering flight and and it was...AMAZING!
if anyone has played arkane's prey...you know how you can set up turrets to fight on your behalf against the invading aliens? zeus shield turned into that.
i would just deploy the zeus shield in front of me and it was basically an autonomous turret pushing foes back & inflicting lightning. i would stand behind it and i use charged shot (which got a damage boost from empowering flight's revolutions) and i was wrecking peeps.
that might be the best defensive build (zeus shield+2 aforementioned hammers) in the game...wow. you can basically stand in a corner, let shield do most of the work, and pick off anyone that gets past the shield in rare instances.
I HIGHLY recommend it.
For me, zeus shield is now above chaos shield.
austere cape
has anyone noticed that in the ||EM4 Hades fight|| that the hitbox for the ||spear throw|| appears BEFORE the attack comes out, i.e. during windup?
wraith imp
has anyone noticed that in the ||EM4 Hades fight|| that the hitbox for the ||spear throw|| appears BEFORE the attack comes out, i.e. during windup?
@austere cape
hmmm...does it? i didn't see that. i just watched haelian's em4 battle against hades and didn't see that. after your post, i looked at specific instances. i didn't see it even after slowing it down. can you post a screenshot?
austere cape
that's gonna be hard to get, but I'll try capping it next time I get to him
I've seen it happen twice though when I've been greedy in the positioning department
wraith imp
hold up...doom procs multiple times on chaos shield? lulz...in trying to nerf zeus chaos shield builds, did SGG accidentally buff it for other builds? i think bablo guessed it was more viable for dio runs. but if it buffs merciful end somehow...then lol.
frank aspen
what is the minimum heat I must beat to be able to speak in this channel
honest charm
0
until you beat heat zero you don't have access to the pact and therefore don't really belong here, unless you're running hellmode and are a masochist
eager anchor
How does seeding works guys?
ember bronze
What Companion is most commonly used? I did most of my learning with Bouldy, but I assume that falls off with LC
hollow lynx
if i had to guess, i'd say rib, battie, and antos are most used
somber rose
I've been working on an "advanced" video guide for Hades, covering the ranges of 0-20 heat. How to build the character during a run, how to avoid getting hit etc.
I could use some peer review from other experienced players to make sure I didn't write anything inaccurate or forgot something important.
^ Pasting on this channel as well because most good players are here. Any help on this would be very appreciated. Just reading the script and making sure all the info is a-ok.
honest charm
that sounds like it would be a long video
It's hard to cram 100s of hours worth of knowledge into a short clip
somber rose
I didn't include every little piece of info... I targeted the big impactful stuff and if there something important missing other players can notify me.
honest charm
may I see the script?
somber rose
DM me a gmail account so i can approve you to view it
honest charm
rekt
I don't have one lol
oh well
forest lichen
is max heat humanly possible
5 minutes per region does not sound like enough time to clear all those beefed up rooms
wraith imp
that's a little misleading. it's not 5 minutes. any remaining time from previous region is added to new region. so people that complete tartarus and asphodel can get through elysium because of spare minutes.
And yes, max heat is possible but it'll require some rng manipulation.
Forgotten Kane beat 57 heat with rng manipulation (aka routing). I'm sure he'll find something for 1.0
shadow merlin
https://ibb.co/5nXsP8H Does this count as high heat?
ember bronze
@somber rose Happy to read over--I have a lot of experience writing game guides and thinking about explaining in that way
vague fossil
@shadow merlin that's a high heat strategy to skip a run
shadow merlin
True
somber rose
@somber rose Happy to read over--I have a lot of experience writing game guides and thinking about explaining in that way
@ember bronze I'm fine with the writing, I just want to peer review the info. DM me an email address so I can give you access.
ember bronze
Before I tell my friend something silly--attack/special % damage bonuses don't affect things that proc off attack/special, right?
hollow lynx
yep
so hangover wouldn't be affected by a +% special damage increase
even though drunken flourish procs off using your special
oak comet
I'm blazing through heats with all weapons (avg 10 right now) except for exegryph (3). I still struggle a lot with the weapon. Using the zagreus build for simplicity. Trying to kite and use mortars on reload.
Ares and dionysus make it much easier but I feel too reliant on them.
Any specific strats to work in for it?
ember bronze
Zag is especially unrewarding on Exagryph
Eris and Hestia are both no-downside, so no reason not to try learning them. I think Hestia is more popular for highend (?), but Eris is very easy to use with any build and adds a ton of free damage
Also using bombs more aggressively for damage, it sounds like, would help
oak comet
@ember bronze I'm starting to see that, yeah. I just struggle with the reload and the mortar attack. Just doesn't feel natural for me.
Alright, I'll try out Eris and get more comfortable with the mortar, thanks!
I'll head to another channel for info about how to use the mortar and soak it better. I think that strat is just foreign to me so I need to practice.
nimble swift
Anyone got, like, a spreadsheet on what pacts work for what, and what pacts are best for raising heat in general?
nimble swift
appreciated!
shy axle
wait why is CP D tier bro CP is kinda free
tidal flame
It's anti synergistic with a lot of other pacts, such as TD (tankier enemies = more time), BP, EM (tankier enemies are more dangerous, remember CP also applies to bosses), JS (basically compounding the health as you have more enemies).
shy axle
I guess I never noticed
oak comet
Benefits package is rated that highly?
I kinda felt like it wasn't a big deal, that's interesting.
Do they get better perks or something the higher the heat?
tidal flame
well I did not make the chart. and that's where I kinda disagree with it. I think BP1 A tier is fine. BP2 should be on D, not B.
but the thing with tier list is that there always exists a little something everyone disagrees with.
bronze viper
RI2 is suuuupppper not F tier hard though.
It's just -2 hearts and -100 obols
Also dang, people must be bookin it to consistently finish TD3 in Tartarus at high heat. With decent RNG I usually skate by just under 6m. Since I would consider a good Erebus room good RNG, TD3 also kind of removes those as an option. Idk, I know you didn't come up with the list, but yeah, just my 2 cents.
I'm far from the fastest player (super far), but sub 20 minute clears past 40 heat is just like, not on the table.
bronze viper
Yeah I'm def a proponent of that
RI1 did get buffed like crazy though, it is a huge loss to not have Dark Foresight now, so I can kind of see its placement.
It was definitely like A tier free before though.
royal wagon
Td3 (and just Td3) tartarus I usually finished with 1 min or 45 seconds left. But add in any hp modifiers or jury summons and it's rough
wraith imp
How does seeding works guys?
@eager anchor
Seeding is very simple.
It's just knowing what the first thing being offered will be (after zag jumps off balcony).
For instance, I start a run...say i get hammer...see the options...and start over. Now I can pick a keepsake or weapon aspect that might better fit the first boon.
bronze viper
BP2 and any HP modifiers make that so unlikely though.
And sometimes Meg is a little B and does her circles of death 800 times in a row
wraith imp
And sometimes Meg is a little B and does her circles of death 800 times in a row
@bronze viper
Yep. I dislike having to play against that version of her.
bronze viper
It's not hard to dodge them, with practice at least, but like, unless you're Rail, you are not doing damage in those phases lol
proud jay
high heat gets more specific depending on your weapon choice
alpine dirge
That too
proud jay
i wouldn't mind doing some guides if i had the video editing skills, and didn't have a horrible accent
trim sigil
Let's suppose accent can be negated by text
proud jay
guess i could do a more twitch-like playthrough with easy 32 heat setups
and no editing
trim sigil
Could also technically get someone to narrate the gameplay, although that will inevitably lose some explanation detail
bronze viper
easier than multitasking though
I seriously admire streamers who learn that skill
Explaining + executing
proud jay
i don't actually mind commentating while playing
so i guess my problems here are related to making a slick youtube video with extra swag
honest charm
RI2 is suuuupppper not F tier hard though.
@bronze viper -40% damage
but also fat agree
honest charm
dark foresight is good...
I should use it
proud jay
in fact, DF is what makes it possible to streak 40 heat clears
honest charm
more boons
honest charm
Why haven't I ever used dark foresight
proud jay
because it didn't use to be +20%
proud jay
legend/duo with DF, otherwise epic
trim sigil
I pick epics because legends and duos are hell to get without heavy rng even with the mirror
proud jay
DF solves that issue
trim sigil
Maybe
proud jay
im starting to realise that people haven't played with DF yet at high heat
alpine dirge
But can you win high heat runs without duo/legend boons?
proud jay
most 50ish heat runs were done without duos/legendaries in Blood Price
trim sigil
I did actually play with DF, and while I liked it more than rare boons, I didn't notice dramatic difference (prebuff)
alpine dirge
Interesting
proud jay
im going to boycot ap2, just because it makes the game so dull
trim sigil
It does indeed, but that's another can of worms of a discussion, probably
proud jay
yeah
bronze viper
-20% poop rooms is also nothing to scoff at
trim sigil
What I wanted to actually clarify is how many rooms in tartarus have minor rewards with and without DF
bronze viper
Minus Key rooms
ember bronze
AP1 isn't F, maybe D or E. AP2 is F
proud jay
you definitely get less keys with DF, so need to be more conservative with re-rolls
AP1 should definitely be low on the list imo
alpine dirge
Ap was less boon options too pick?
ember bronze
I agree with CP being low-rated. Reducing your killing power has compounding effects making everything harder
trim sigil
Same
ember bronze
I used AP1 for 32 heat, and CP0 RI0
proud jay
i mean, you kinda have to get some bad ones for 32 heat
ember bronze
I'd be curious to see what all was most common for people's first 32
bronze viper
Yeah... re: TD3, I just finished like... the most blessed 32 Zag bow run I've had in a LONG time and it was in 20:07, and I intenionally made sure to skip rooms when possible, even if it didn't make sense to given my time.
(I was on TD2)
ember bronze
I've done a few 20min clears recently, but being forced to do it would fail out so many runs
proud jay
idk if im one to talk about TD3 at high heat since i've done loads of high heat and speedruns, but it's sort of in a good spot
royal wagon
Is it worth more heat than old TD2 was?
ember bronze
yeah. Overall a little harder, since new TD3 is much worse than old TD2
bronze viper
I don't have a burst Companion yet though, and I got a 3 stack, so maybe I could have made TD3 with this run in particular. And I'm on Hell Mode so I did have CP1 and JS1
ember bronze
I used Bouldy anyway for progression to 32
but probably going back to a damage summon
just saying it's totally a good option until maybe LC2 enters the mix
bronze viper
I have Dusa... which is great at CC at very high heat but she doesn't do much until then lol. Though they did buff her 100%, which is nuts
proud jay
what they did???
royal wagon
She was pretty useless before from what I saw
bronze viper
30 seconds
trim sigil
Instead of 20
bronze viper
Oh I thought it was 15
ember bronze
Ant is 1500 right away, then 1500 (to either the same or a different target) a few sec later?
proud jay
i actually used the old dusa a lot
trim sigil
I thought it was 20 but maybe wrong
proud jay
the only problem was that you couldn't summon dusa against hades
yeah dusa is great for elysium normal encounters
bronze viper
And didn't blow up to Chariots (cough Skelly)
royal wagon
Only 50+ heat I have experience with was watching Haelian runs and dusa never seemed to do much for him. But I believe you guys
ember bronze
And, early on, before Bouldy, Skelly seemed very powered defensively. Haven't experimented with him in a while
trim sigil
I actually had a situation when dusa didn't do literally anything in elysium room
Albeit it was my fault to summon her in a corner and goinh to another
bronze viper
Skelly gets vaguely sneezed at by an Elite Chariot before noping out of there.
Which is a bummer because that's definitely when I need him most lol
mystic apex
Hey all, quick question
What weapon aspects work with pretty much any upgrades? I'd like to start getting into high heat runs, but more casually, without constant resetting or running the same seed
proud jay
eris rail
ember bronze
I play whatever weapon is purple and no resets always
Definitely Eris, also Chaos, Chiron
trim sigil
Chiron likes them special hammers a lot. Although ig after bow buffs it's okay
proud jay
there's quite a few useful hammers for chiron anyway
ember bronze
Nemesis, Guan Yu if you're okay with Guan Yu, also Achilles
bronze viper
Lucifer, Hera as long as long as you're using a non-lodge cast, Gilgamesh, Excalibur, surprisigly, since you don't want to get hit at high heat anyway so the damage reduction is less relevant,
ember bronze
Yeah, now you can get either Concentrated or Relentless for Chrion
mystic apex
Awesome, looks like I have a lot of choices
bronze viper
Oh, nvm, I thought you meant blood upgrades
ember bronze
Yeah, really you can still play anything
proud jay
fists in general are quite good i guess
royal wagon
Still love Zag fists personally
trim sigil
Fists don't really rely on hammers ye
ember bronze
A little harder to target a Poseidon build or something, but you can still play it
royal wagon
Pretty much any boon on atk other than poseidon and you're off to the races
mystic apex
Gotcha
I've been mainly using Hades Spear, would that work too or do I need specific stuff for that?
proud jay
hades spear kinda wants exploding launcher or serrated point
royal wagon
Spears I would say are some of the mores finicky weapons
proud jay
but i guess you can do spin stuff too
proud jay
except hades spear does extra +150% damage
bronze viper
Not for the spin lol
proud jay
spin is an attack?
trim sigil
Serrated point is probably quite a safety tradeoff now with even worse dash penalty, isn't it?
bronze viper
I can test it in a second but I'm 90% sure the debuff does not affect the spin
mystic apex
yeah the punishing debuff doesn't up spin damage
proud jay
what the heck
royal wagon
Achilles spear cast builds are still good I assume
trim sigil
Spin is an attack but it doesn't get buffed by the punishing sweep
mystic apex
If I don't get serrated point, exploding launcher, or spin upgrades, is Hades spear outright bad or just not up to meta standards?
proud jay
you can still beat the game, just lack some big damage numbers
ember bronze
I don't think much of anything is outright bad
bronze viper
It's not terrible, you just still get relatively chunky damage but just attack > dash-striking with the spear
trim sigil
It's probably still up there I'd say, just that you may feel less comfortable
ember bronze
(yeah, Achilles and almost any cast)
proud jay
zag spear without good hammers is terrible
bronze viper
but it's not like... amazing
mystic apex
makes sense
proud jay
zag shield is desperate for pulverizing blow and dashing wallop
zag sword is...something else
bronze viper
Yo... 10x scarier than finishing a high heat run is the perfect catch on the fish there lol.
mystic apex
I like melee so far but I haven't messed with the shields much, so I might start messing with those more if they don't rly need specific upgrades
bronze viper
TOO MUCH PRESSURE
ember bronze
Chaos shield lets you go to down with pretty much anything
mystic apex
I heard it got nerfed but it's still pretty strong huh?
trim sigil
Wasn't zag sword sorta buffed?
bronze viper
It's... a lot worse, let's be real.
proud jay
it's still a very safe weapon
bronze viper
But it's still a shield
bronze viper
It's still invincible
mystic apex
word
bronze viper
You are definitely not setting any land speed records with it anymore though
No more ricochet or 360 no scoping
proud jay
@bronze viper you might be surprised very soon
bronze viper
I hope so, so people quit whining about it 😛
proud jay
just requires a different build
also it still does very well at high heat, let me just say that
bronze viper
It's a shield
proud jay
i reached phase 3 of EM4 at 47 heat sort of easily
trim sigil
If people managed to put hades spear at the bottom for half a year before finding out its top, chaos will be mourned for a while
ember bronze
What kind of build?
mystic apex
ledger you said earlier that excalibur doesn't really need specific upgrades either?
bronze viper
I was answering differently than everyone else I think. I thought you meant Titan Blood upgrades
Not in-run
mystic apex
oohhh, what about in run?
bronze viper
Zag bow is very flexible now
royal wagon
Bablo you keeping the build a secret for now?
bronze viper
Before it was Twin Shot or bust
daring hedge
i think bablo means the doom special exploit
royal wagon
Ah gotcha, heard about that today
mystic apex
but excalibur does need certain upgrades to shine in run? I like the swords but not the dash attack spam, that's why I was wondering
bronze viper
At highest heat you want Greater Consecration to carry you through FO2
proud jay
excalibur benefits from a lot of different hammer upgrades imo
royal wagon
Dash spam is definitely part of swords identity I would say
bronze viper
Otherwise you literally just can't keep up.
bronze viper
(That's why I seed for the hammer if I do lol)
mystic apex
ahh okay good to know
Cromweld I was hoping that zag sword changes would make dash attack spam not the optimal choice anymore but apparently that's not the case? I like how the basic attacks feel more than the poke spam lol
bronze viper
Least hammer reliant though... hmm, Chiron can build in a million different directions now, as can Zag Bow, Malphon is a phenomenal base weapon, Chaos still has very few hammers that mean anything, Rail w/ Lightning is great without hammers (though Ricochet is legit af)
RE; Zag Sword. It's a good start, but not enough, no.
daring hedge
yeah, i'd say that demeter fists can even work fine at high heat with no hammers at all. obviously you want explosive upper, but it's doable without it
bronze viper
I wouldn't in a million years expect that i'd be peddling off Chiron as one the baseline strongest most flexible aspects in the game lol.
Praise SGG
mystic apex
oh Tailesque watching your hades spear runs is what turned me on to the weapon lol
and thanks for the other suggestions too ledger
daring hedge
oh that's awesome to hear!
bronze viper
(me too lol, I thought Hades spear was a meme then watched his videos and was like... that is... kinda sick)
mystic apex
yeah I was just asking earlier how hades spear holds up without specific upgrades like serrated and launcher
bronze viper
Easily favorite spear aspect now, probably top 5 favorite aspects
mystic apex
the spin do feel good
bronze viper
Dash-Strike > baby Spin changed my life
daring hedge
lol truth
bronze viper
I'm sure a lot of people tried doing the chonky base attack into big boy spin and was like... welp there's 15 blood in the pooper
bronze viper
Noice
Lol, Poseidon's Aid + Eris has been pretty bread and buttery for me in 1.0, ngl
proud jay
eris in general is just too strong
im sure i could do 48 heat unseeded in a few attempts
i think that was my first attempt after trying 50 heat a bunch of times
bronze viper
Eris is one of the rare weapons that doesn't care about DC, JS or CP (well, it kinda cares about CP)
proud jay
CP makes everything much harder
at least when you have almost every other heat option already on
proud jay
yeah eris kinda does the most damage in the game
bronze viper
Lol, moderately #blessed, but I was just machine-gunning like 1600s with Heart Rend, Twin + Flurry Shot Zag bow w/ Epic Swift Strike.
Moderately.
proud jay
twin + flurry and epic swift strike is the setup i had for 49 heat in Blood Price
never will i ever again get that, especially since i think i had AP2 on
bronze viper
I mean, I still haven't gotten Black Out in Tartarus again, but the only time it happened was with AP2 at 49 lol
proud jay
xd
daring hedge
sometimes i think about pushing higher with hades spear or something but then i remember AP and my motivation dips
proud jay
AP2 is what made me go for speedruns instead of more high heat runs
bronze viper
I'll push again when I unlock Rama
I guess I need to buy a capture card or something
I honestly have no idea how Switch recording or streaming works
bronze viper
It's for a dumb reason, but I just unlearned my muscle memory for confirm/cancel from Xbox to Switch controllers lol
And I don't want to have to ununlearn it
trim sigil
sometimes i think about pushing higher with hades spear or something but then i remember AP and my motivation dips
hey, you can just "everything but ap and ri3" for.. 54 heat I believe?
bronze viper
Lol, 20m JS3, CP2, DC2, EM4, okay buddy 😉
royal wagon
Congrats! Was eris changed at all in 1.0?
mossy zinc
Eris is very strong, yeah.
burnt ravine
Eris damage boost got buffed I think?
mossy zinc
To +75%, yes.
burnt ravine
What was it previously? I forgot
mossy zinc
+60%.
burnt ravine
Ah pretty significant then
proud jay
it was already very good at +60%. i considered it one of the strongest weapons
primal quest
What was the build?
bronze viper
Cold Fusion kinda nice against EM3 and 4
ember bronze
Just was playing random run on heat 26, had Zeus special (shield) and nothing important to pick for act3
So I picked Aphrodite to fish for Call and hopefully Smoldering Air
Got both, it's wild how much that does for two boons
Seems like a strong thing to look out for if Zeus is in play already
bronze viper
It's pretty hilarious how many Smoldering Air combos just break the game
proud jay
yeah smoldering air is very good
ember bronze
is Talos fists moment of vulnerability after pulling a big problem?
or just something you have to learn to deal with
proud jay
it's something you should cancel with a dash
mystic apex
bablo I just saw your Blood Price zeus shield 40 heat run, it looks fun but hard to play haha
how flexible are zeus and beowulf shield at higher heat levels when it comes to hammers and boons?
proud jay
i have no idea, i think the 40 heat zeus shield run you saw was my only high heat run with it
for beowulf i've only done charged flight
daring hedge
i guess i could upload the 45 zeus shield at some point but i also kind of doubt any new or interesting info could be gleaned
i just slapped zeus boons on zeus shield and did what i could
i do know that empowering flight is good for zeus shield generally, but also kind of niche at high heat since it's hard to effectively juggle the special and attack at once with targets that like to move
mystic apex
gotcha, thanks
I didn't start playing until v1.0 but I know charged flight got a big nerf so I guess beo's in a weird spot right now
sounds like maybe zeus shield could work with a variety of upgrades though
mossy zinc
Drunken Strike + a good cast is great for clearing mob waves with DC2 with Beowulf. I think it's very flexible.
Obviously the nerf to Charged Flight hurts.
edgy arrow
haven't tried charged flight since the update, is it still okay or is it no longer worth it?
crystal iron
I believe Charged Flight is +200% damage now instead of +400%
edgy arrow
that's... a lot less
ah well, i've mostly been focusing on cast builds with beowulf regardless
proud jay
save summon and call for when he summons two mini-bosses
tardy path
It's been 7 tries and I just reached his third phase
proud jay
it's a tough fight so it takes a while to learn
proud jay
go to the bottom right corner
seems like it's the best spot
i often try to save a call for it for some i-frames
tardy path
I did too but one caught me off-guard and took away my stubborn defiance
Anything change in his 3rd phase?
proud jay
can't see anything, that's about it
edgy arrow
it gets dark
crystal iron
the fight is really hard with stubborn defiance, you get way too little room for error, I recommend learning the fight with 3 death defiances first.
edgy arrow
first time i fought him, i got through his second phase with 1 hp and no DDs
tardy path
I was thinking the same, will do that
edgy arrow
i was like... pls no 3rd phase? rip me
tardy path
I swear 
crystal iron
the first time I got to the fight, I had Smoldering Air Lvl9 Poseidon call with Rip Current and Wave Pounding, so I was invincible half the fight.
proud jay
that's basically how i cleared it at 48 heat, minus the smoldering air
honest kernel
third phase was just kinda spamming dash for me I finally got the fight today
tardy path
@proud jay Please link me your video, I need to see this
proud jay
see #self-promotion
honest kernel
I kinda dislike em4 a lot tho its just hades but...longer
proud jay
much harder in general
honest kernel
he already was too long for my tastes
proud jay
you actually need a proper build
honest kernel
hades but what if u cant see
proud jay
blood and darkness
honest kernel
4 heat is tempting but nay
honest kernel
I havent tried maxy em4 yet sounds evil
edgy arrow
it'd prolly be easier if i turn off FO2 but its a matter of principle
honest kernel
prob
proud jay
FO2 makes a huge difference
and i don't get why so many want to keep FO2 on all the time
edgy arrow
to learn
proud jay
it's hardly worth it for some weapons
honest kernel
FO1 is like ok across the board
edgy arrow
the idea is i'll be able to turn in off and then i'll be like goku
or something
dunno if it'll work but yolo
proud jay
a few of pre-1.0 high heat records were without FO2
honest kernel
unless im doing beo beo doesnt care
grr
oh yeah guess beos a bit nerfed
in any way im already super out of stamina on high heat runs when I reach hades
dont need him to take twice as long
edgy arrow
so i'm still tryna do 40, do ya'll recommend i turn off FO2 for that then?
honest kernel
I mean its ur call
proud jay
depends on your weapon imo
honest kernel
if ur already used to FO2 its ok
but if FO2 is the thing that ends ur runs
maybe reconsider
honest kernel
alsour doing em4 with 40?
honest kernel
personally I'd cut that one
proud jay
im sort of trying to figure out if 40 heat streaks are doable, and em4 seems like a big risk to take
edgy arrow
fair enough i'll prolly cut that then
honest kernel
again I havent played 1.0 much but em4 seems pretty funky
proud jay
the problem i have with em4 is that you kinda need to cut either FO2 or TD3 to justify it
otherwise you just need to be rly fast, and get a good build
edgy arrow
i'm not running TD3 anyway
honest kernel
on 40 you can just put other stuff into the setings that are a lot easier
edgy arrow
i am too slow lol
edgy arrow
i can count on one hand the number of sub 20 runs i've done
honest kernel
guess highest heat is bricked again if you consider em4 and td3
proud jay
TD3 forces you to try to be fast
and kinda means you have to take more mid-shops and chaos gates
also EM4+TD3 isn't the biggest problem
honestly it's RI4 and AP2
honest kernel
I mean ngl I thought highest heat would be possible if they fixed TD2 to have the universal timer
honest kernel
but now we have more stuff
edgy arrow
i mean, highest heat was done pre 1.0
honest kernel
routed tho
proud jay
with an insane build though
wraith imp
Alright guys so I've been getting absolutely destroyed by EM 4 Hades
@tardy path
what's you weapon aspect of choice and build?
my (somewhat) general tips:
- hades does 2 spins in a row - seemingly always (so don't rush in after spin 1) - these can't be deflected but can be dodged (so it seems)
- be on the look out for the spear throw and achilles-esque rush (the spear throw can be deflected)
- stay close to pillars to avoid his projectiles
- when he heals, he's vulnerable and open to huge damage
- take out pots from distance when you can
- his quick/rapid succession of strikes can be deflected
- his lasers can be stopped by charm
forest vortex
Can you stop his heal?
harsh birch
Hades uses the green pots on the field for his healing (there will always be at least one somewhere during the EM4 fight). I don't think there's a way to completely stop the healing, but if there's a bunch of pots lying around it's worth the time to break them so he gets less mileage from them
sleek juniper
Well TIL on that one
ember bronze
Do multiple sources of Dodge stack additively or multiplicatively?
wraith imp
Can you stop his heal?
@forest vortex
Doesn't seem like it. I've tried about 5 different curses/builds and nothing has stopped it so far. Seems the best you can hope to do is do as much or more damage as he's healing to keep him from gaining health.
Do multiple sources of Dodge stack additively or multiplicatively?
@ember bronze
Additive is my guess.
bronze viper
Can you prove that? Prevailing wisdom is that it's multiplicative, as that's how damage reduction works, and intuitively since you shouldn't be able to reach 100% dodge cap
surreal yacht
is highest heat even possible now? 5 mins per zone doesn't seem doable if you're also dealing with extra enemy hp and more spawns
wraith imp
Can you prove that? Prevailing wisdom is that it's multiplicative, as that's how damage reduction works, and intuitively since you shouldn't be able to reach 100% dodge cap
@bronze viper
I can't prove it. But during blood price update, i was on a lambent plume kick. I did about 20 straight runs of it as my keepsake from start to finish on varying heat levels. I also went full rambo/melee combat style. And from how infrequently i was getting hit, it struck me as additive when I did some basic math on # of hits I took compared to # of attacks i faced.
there is absolutely a cap against bosses but against regular enemies were SOL. I was basically untouchable.
ETA: I've edited my post above to reflect that it's my guess.
I think my best run was around 33% on lambent plume + epic dodge (25%) which was upgraded by eurydice to 30% + second win (30%).
In adding that...it's >90% which felt about right. (Of course, sample bias + anchoring bias + survivor bias all applies.)
I'm not sure what the final dodge % of it would be multiplicative in my best dodge scenario. Anyone?
daring hedge
@wraith imp EM4 hades heal is tied to the green urns
you basically want to keep as many destroyed as possible
bronze viper
It should be about 68% dodge
wraith imp
Yeah, I've seen that. I'm so into the action that I'm not sure if it's true or not. (I wish I had a recording setup so I could re-watch my runs and do some scouting.)
bronze viper
Multiplicatively
daring hedge
well, i can tell you that it is indeed true, then
wraith imp
It should be about 68% dodge
@bronze viper
Can you outline the math? Curious how you arrived at it.
daring hedge
there's even a visual effect to indicate which urn he is healing from
bronze viper
You multiply the opposite of the dodge chance together to get the chance that you can get hit, then subtract from 1
1 - (.66 * .7 * .7)
wraith imp
lol, f me...
i was a math minor in college.
I just did a complete brain fart.
bronze viper
To be fair, math minors/majors very quickly stop working with numbers lol
wraith imp
True. A lot of my work is now automated thank to built-in algorithms. Hurray tech!
But 68% feels kinda low to me given how infrequently I did get hit.
bronze viper
Given how thick some of the dodge bonuses are, it'd be a surprise if it was additive. Even after nerf it's still pretty easy to get close to 100. Shrug.
wraith imp
This is kinda one of those scenarios of alpha vs beta where alpha is player skill while beta is standard ehr* (expected hit rate)
bronze viper
Doesn't really affect gameplay surprisingly lol. Dodge represents a huge amount of effective health so you typically always take it
wraith imp
in a non-intensive time pressure run, i'd argue that dodge and deflect are the 2 most valuable abilities in the game.
bronze viper
maybe deflect and invincibility
Dodge is non-deterministic, so it's nice to have but you can't actually figure it into any situation on the margin
wraith imp
upon review, might be the most important the higher the heat with hard labor and lasting consequences on (with no stubborn roots)
Dodge is non-deterministic, so it's nice to have but you can't actually figure it into any situation on the margin
@bronze viper
true...it's kinda passive.
bronze viper
Whereas deflect and invuln (either from shield, call or dodge iframe) let you decide, in the moment, "I am in this enemy's hitbox, and I don't have to care"
ember bronze
Yeah, but reality is you take damage (or else you never lose!), and dodge just multiplies that buffer
of damage you're inevitably going to take
bronze viper
I'm not arguing that dodge isn't good lol, he just said the most important 2 mechanics
wraith imp
i didn't include invincibility because it's weapon-specific. (shield's blocking)
i'm just not clever enough to use the i-frames so that was not in my thinking.
i was focused on things you can get directly from boons. (albeit i-frames are enabled from using specific boons situationally.)
bronze viper
Yeah, iframes are what make Artemis' Call not literal toilet paper
severe compass
Man I would love for some way to make literal toilet paper
And if all I have to do is get an epic boon from the godess of the hunt
So be it
mossy zinc
Deflect, Weak, extra dashes are what you want at high heat. Dodge is nice to have, I guess.
Weak comes with high +% damage.
And goes higher than any single dodge source immediately.
severe compass
I only go for dodge when the other options aren't extra dash or smth specific for my build
mossy zinc
The only reliable way to build for dodge at high heat is Lambent Plume.
And that's not worth it for what you give up.
bronze viper
Damage reduction definitely a bit worse than dodge on average since dodge can prevent hits that would be lethal even after apply the same % of reduction.
But otherwise yeah I agree, 30% reduction + biggest attack in the game is way better than any single dodge source
severe compass
I always forget weak actually does something. I just pick it for the dmg
mossy zinc
Weak is consistent. You want consistency.
How do you forget? I think Weak is the best status curse in the game.
severe compass
Well yeah but it's also very passive
bronze viper
Chill is kinda dope, but pretty hard to stack
honest charm
if you don't get hit you don't notice the damage reduction
severe compass
You don't have too plan too apply it because it's already on your main dmg source
mossy zinc
Chill would be great if you didn't need so many stacks to actually notice a difference.
There's no point in splashing chill in a build on a slot that would only do a single hit.
Unless you really want her Duo.
bronze viper
Pretty nice on Chiron and Rama though. I mean I'd never advise going for Frost Flourish on Rama but it can only be so bad.
severe compass
Meanwhile poison literally is your dmg, chill stacks and changes the enemy noticably, doom is just very active in it's nature and the other ones is a 2nd tier boon I'm p sure
daring hedge
chill is fun on hades serrated
especially with arctic blast. full 10 after a mini sweep and 3 dash-strikes
mossy zinc
I can see that.
The best thing about Hangover on Attack or Special is that it handles DC2 for you.
bronze viper
Relentless Volley Chiron + Arctic Blast is not something I've assembled yet
mossy zinc
That's literally all I use it for lol. Just to make those DC hearts disappear.
severe compass
DC2 you mean free heat?
fathom scarab
so what's the highest heat anybody has completed in 1.0?
bronze viper
DC2 is one of the furthest pacts from free that exist lol
daring hedge
not free heat for arthur or hestia lol
mossy zinc
There's no free heat at 50+.
severe compass
Ik ik
bronze viper
Since Chaos doesn't do it's thing anymore it's like... just Lightning Rail, Rama that has a fast multihit burst option that's part of it's natural damage rotation. Even Fist super duper wants to get through armor as fast as possible to stun lock, which DC extends by a lot
mossy zinc
Tried Dark Foresight for a bit today because @proud jay speaks highly of it, but I'm not really used to seeing so few keys that I get no rerolls, really.
bronze viper
It's a cost, for sure. The hearts, obols, and extra boons make up for it though in spades imo
daring hedge
and at least you can start with your default persuasion rolls since RI isn't active
bronze viper
It's a fairly common occurrence for me right now to hit 400 by Hades
mossy zinc
I tried taking the legendary one, too, but I should have just gone with Epic+.
bronze viper
Lol, yeah agreed with the epic one, but I like duos and legendaries too much, I'll live with being fractionally suboptimal
mossy zinc
Not sure how I feel about fists 4 yet.
daring hedge
i'm not a big fan of it so far, but that could change
mossy zinc
Early impression is the Dash-Upper has way too much recovery.
bronze viper
I'll wait for the Gilgamesh equivalent of Tailesque to change my mind but I'm currently boxing it with my old perception of Hades
daring hedge
lol
bronze viper
Dashing after attacking is just like... a hair too unresponsive
And that hair gets me hit 50% of the time
mossy zinc
That would be my job, I guess.
Trying to apply maim to multiple enemies just gives everyone +50% damage while you're stuck there forever in recovery.
daring hedge
i've had the same experience with the dash delay after attacking. i'm sure it's something you could get used to and account for in your head while playing, eventually, but for now it feels... weird
bronze viper
Yeah, I agree. It's something I had to get over with Hades too, to be fair, that if you try to undercut the spin animation Zag just takes 10 years to slowly put the stupid thing down.
mossy zinc
Yeah, something about it doesn't flow quite right.
bronze viper
So maybe there's a loop that makes sense for Gilgamesh too /shrug
mossy zinc
I don't get the point of so many dashes when Dash-Strike is only 25 compared to 60 from a normal Attack.
Dash-Strike spam hurts your DPS.
Dash-Upper has too much recovery.
daring hedge
yeah, and dash-strikes cancelling dash i-frames just makes it so easy to get punished while trying to make use of its unique ability to just hold down dash and attack continuously until you're done
mossy zinc
You can hold down dash? I never tried lol.
daring hedge
it's fine on armor-less foes that can be stunned, but i really don't trust it on bosses
yeah
mossy zinc
I'm honestly disappointed that they went with "slow but hard" again for the 4th Malphon Aspect. I was really hoping for something speedy yet unique.
daring hedge
the part about it that is extremely fast is also...! extremely weak 😔
even with hunter dash i kind of didn't want to bother and felt like my time was better spent doing regular swipes
mossy zinc
Well, 25 is the same as any other Malphon Aspect. So it's not bad.
wraith imp
You can hold down dash? I never tried lol.
@mossy zinc
Yeah...
You can kinda make zag spin like a top.
mossy zinc
Might look more into Dash-Strike spam next time.
Would be easier if they hadn't nerfed my main Malphon build yet again lol.
daring hedge
it's slightly better if you manage to net greatest reflex, but still pretty slow going unless you were to run hunter dash as well as a chaos lunge, probably
bronze viper
I haven't tried Ruthless Reflex yet
mossy zinc
Anyway. Good night!
bronze viper
Night
daring hedge
gnight
bronze viper
There was drama llama around the concept of record.
But the answer is either 57 or 54 depending on who you ask
ember bronze
I never noticed this: you can enable hermes legendaries just by having Plume on (according to codex)?
dapper bobcat
Yep, let's you get the legendaries right away
ember bronze
separately, do damage summons penetrate Meg's immunity?
No, can't be right, I've mistimed Bouldy before
Just now I summoned Antos too early--pressed L2, then attacked her and saw her shield pop up--then the fight just ended instantly
ember bronze
Bug? Get the Achilles spear buff, use 3 of the charges, refresh the buff, use 1 charge, it goes away
prime cairn
50 heat category on https://www.speedrun.com/hades is up, y'all. Seeded and Unseeded. Check the rules and go!
Feel free to submit your runs beyond 50 heat there too. Should be able to sort by heat when there's some runs above 50 on there. Let me know if it doesn't work as expected though, the site is a bit finnicky.
bronze viper
I mean, 50 is a bold move lol
Considering there are 5 or 6 people who have actually done it
daring hedge
hey 50 with EM4 is scary ok
bronze viper
Yeah... I'm not super sold on EM4 at 50 heat lol...
tidal flame
I think 45 heat is a good cut off? Not rocking anyone's boat here but...
50 is daunting
bronze viper
40 was too lenient, I think 45 is pretty reasonable
tidal flame
'member when 40 heat was high?
daring hedge
i agree
tidal flame
I 'member
tidal flame
Those were the days indeed
I remember seeing Peach cleares 6x32 and I was in awe
Then you
Then Krasher
Then you did 36
daring hedge
i do think 45 is a good place for high heat runs. it's very much "up there" in terms of heat but not to the point where you'd get like 5 participants max as with 50, maybe
tidal flame
Should we @ Jerds?
bronze viper
Probs
tidal flame
I'll wait for bablo and others
bronze viper
Also consider that Chaos and Beowulf were... adjusted
tidal flame
Given how I'm not exactly high heat material anymore
bronze viper
You're still well beyond the 1% tbh
tidal flame
Well thanks for the kind words but I'll let the "higher" heat runners decide
My kneejerk reaction is that it should be 45
bronze viper
The non-shield aspect(s) reaallllly had to work for it to breach 50 lol.
daring hedge
and now they decided to nerf one of spear's best tools for breaching it
bronze viper
You did it with Launcher too though
daring hedge
that's true
bronze viper
And Bows got buffed so it stands to reason that will happen in due time since we had multiple aspects at 49
daring hedge
it felt a lot slower and clunkier but i suppose it should still work
oh definitely
rama just feels too good now not to get 50+ at some point in the near future
bronze viper
Zag too
daring hedge
what's your take on chiron's viability at high heat?
i haven't really played it in 1.0 yet
bronze viper
It's really good right now. At "normal" high heat it's great
I think Zag's free crit is better at RIx and APx though
daring hedge
yeah
bronze viper
I still have to do 8 or whatever runs on PC to start grinding EM4 but that's +4 heat free when I get it down
I am so far from having it down right now though lol
Each miserable failure of an attempt (on Switch) takes another 20 minutes x_x. I have not yet tried turning FO2 off though
daring hedge
same, and i think the sheer buff that EM4 summons get relative to the normal fight is kind of insane; you need ridiculous damage to not get completely overwhelmed by them, skulls, and hades himself
i think even after we get used to it, not having good enough damage by then will be an issue
bronze viper
I don't want to have to deal with RI1 AND AP2 with how beefy that fight is
But I'm not sure from whence these points are coming from yet lol
daring hedge
this is part of why i have high hopes for rama at least. as long as you can like, seed twin shot, get a good second hammer like point blank, and aphro attack or something, even EM4 hades can get chunked
which i know is still wishful thinking with AP2
autumn sable
I thought about bumping the list to 45+ as ultra high heat
bronze viper
EM4 with JS2 CP1 RI2 TD2 is 50 heat. That may be the place I'd start
autumn sable
but TD3 and EM4 aren't exactly things that make 40-45 any easier
bronze viper
AP0 most importantly
I don't know if that's optimal, but it's optimal for my sanity
I think TD3 is a total total wash for ultra high heat
It's literally non-existant
tidal flame
high heat strat: don't unlock the fishing rod so the fish bait won't show up in the store and won't dilute the pool
tribal eagle
🤔
hollow lynx
don’t unlock troves either
tidal flame
don't you have to unlock troves to progress the game in general though?
alpine dirge
god i hate skulls in high heat
there are so many. there are faster AND i jsut got a room where they jsut buffed themself with blue hearths
and it was literally impossoible to kill any of them
mossy zinc
It's not impossible.
severe compass
Yeah, just do it lmao
alpine dirge
btw i only had 1 hammer upgrade with exigraph
so liek if i had a boon like zeus on attack yeah doable
but jsut normal attack literally impossible
naive marsh
any great boons that go with nemesis on a 32 heat run?
crystal iron
Heart Rend (Aphrodite + Artemis duo, crits do +50% to weak foes) probably.
naive marsh
okay imma try that thaaanks
warped junco
Are people generally running +rare chance or +gold rewards at high heat?
crystal iron
at high heat people probably run Routine Inspection, so neither
warped junco
Oh right lol
At low/middle heats then, since I hear 32 is considered low for some people
proud jay
I suggest running dark foresight
dawn forum
Extreme measures 4 is death. I love it.
alpine dirge
Is the em3 strat the same as for the normal fight?(focus mino first?)