Stitch together as in edit the video so it looks like a single run to hide the save-scumming.
#h1-high-heat-strategies
mossy zinc
57 Heat is entirely routed, which is still "real" but routed to get the best chambers, rewards, items, etc.
For Doomstone, Antos will kill it easily.
So that's an option.
Otherwise, I dunno, just take your time and play it safe. You probably have plenty of time in Tartarus.
I'm actually not good with Chaos Aspect lol.
wraith imp
Save-scumming is reloading a chamber to do it over again (because you died or whatever).
@mossy zinc I'm new to roguelikes so this is beyond me. hades is the first game I've played in this genre.
So sorry if this is a noob question: How does one "reload a chamber to do it again" in Hades? If a player dies, doesn't Zag go back to the house?
mossy zinc
There's a permanent save at the House of Hades and a temporary save.
Temp save is at the chamber you're in.
You can back up the temp save when you die, swap it in as your "permanent" save, load it in game, and you'll start right back in the chamber.
That's how we normally create practice saves for boss fights.
If you give up in that case, you'll just start right in that chamber again (because the game sees that as your perm save).
It makes practicing boss fights or any difficult BP2 combos super convenient.
But of course, it can also be used to save-scum through any chambers you die in.
wraith imp
Cool stuff. I was wondering if some players had designated files solely for practicing against bosses to improve pattern recognition and timing. Now I know...
It beats doing a new run entirely just to have the opportunity to practice.
Yeah, this way is efficient/convenient. But I can also see how that is abused.
mossy zinc
Well, enemies in Hades don't really have patterns. They normally just choose on their attacks/moves at random.
The available attacks/moves can change depending on regular, elite, or super elite for normal enemies, between normal and MM for minibosses, and for the different phases of major bosses (plus EM).
wraith imp
For Doomstone, Antos will kill it easily.
@mossy zinc antos? I...uh...did you mean thanatos?
I'm talking about the evil crystal doomstone in tartarus (and not styx). I would rather not use thanatos pre-elysium if i can help it.
I found that attacking/eliminating the smaller crystals prevents the laser pattern from forming/firing but that doesn't necessarily do damage (b/c dps is kinda weak without static discharge/jolted).
wraith imp
oh
rocky hatch
Charged flight 52 heat 
wraith imp
u meant achilles/patroclus keepsake
rocky hatch
going to watch that
mossy zinc
Chaos Aspect single-target DPS is indeed kinda weak without Jolted.
@rocky hatch have fun! Let me know if she made it! 
wraith imp
i don't have that companion yet. and i don't like to use companion before elysium. (i do have a tendency to hoard the companion summons.)
daring hedge
with doomstone you'll definitely want to destroy its armor as fast as you can, since it can't fire off lasers from the main body while getting stunned
wraith imp
Well, enemies in Hades don't really have patterns. They normally just choose on their attacks/moves at random.
@mossy zinc This is news to me.
Really? hades enemies don't have patterns like hollow knight enemies? this is kinda unnerving...
daring hedge
i'd imagine chaos shield specials would handily help thin out the secondary mini doomstones that draw their own lasers
mossy zinc
I dunno. Never played Hollow Knight lol.
daring hedge
there are still some spacing-dependent attacks that aren't totally random, like the greatshield's lunge+spin which they will only perform if you're in range
wraith imp
Oh? great game. if people enjoy hades, i think they would enjoy hollow knight. (but that's getting off-topic.)
mossy zinc
Hades himself needs to do 3–4 actions (don't remember if 3 or 4) after coming out of invisibility before he can go invisible again.
And yeah, some enemies will only do certain attacks if you're at a minimum range. Like, Hades will pursue you relentlessly when he wants to do a melee attack until he's in range.
Which makes it much easier to tell if he's going for skull throw or spear thrust.
Because he'll do the skull throw from anywhere.
rocky hatch
hmm, question: when you guys are doing high heat, record breaking runs, do you go with a specific seed, or do you just keep trying with the same setup dying over and over until the run clicks?
wraith imp
Is there some way to beat the minotaur bullrush with only 1 default dash and a non-shield weapon? (No other weapon allows blocking like shield does.)
mossy zinc
You can e.g. fight him between a pillar and a wall, then just dash through him.
He'll crash into either the pillar or wall trying to turn 180°.
You can also stick close to the wall and dash away at the last moment.
And if you use Acorn, sometimes you can just tank the hit.
That can be a good idea if the alternative is worse.
You can also make him crash into Theseus, but that's very situational.
"Not me, Asterius!"
wraith imp
Ok, got it. Yeah, I've noticed some success with using pillars as a psuedo-shield. The problem is that his bullrush kinda just happens...so it's quick. If I'm not near a pillar to begin with, then I'm almost certainly going to take damage.
mossy zinc
Also, if you have Divine Strike or Flourish, you can deflect it. That works especially well with Malphon.
I just punch him in the face with Divine Strike lol.
wraith imp
Hmm...ok. But didn't you also say yesterday that athena's deflect doesn't do damage against theseus/minotaur? So then using athena's boons would be for purely defensive reasons, yeah?
mossy zinc
Divine Dash doesn't really work because you're invincible when dashing, so he doesn't "connect" with you to trigger the deflect.
Yeah, he doesn't take damage from the Deflect.
But he still takes damage from the punch.
And the boons help with a lot more than just that specific encounter.
So it's a trade-off in that regard, I guess.
Low DPS in that specific fight for all the benefits in other encounters.
And Deflect will still trigger Deadly Reversal if you have it.
wraith imp
right. besides aphrodite's versatility, i tend to like athena the most because her deflect ability negates so much. unfortunately, i haven't been able to find another aspect besides zeus shield which truly optimizes it.
mossy zinc
All the melee weapons, really, can make great use of it.
wraith imp
i'm most famiiliar with chaos shield as a melee weapon. (really, all the shields are.)
fists are good for melee too
with lots of dash-striking
not sure about the others...
oh wait...
mossy zinc
@rocky hatch also
when you guys and girls are doing high heat, record breaking runs
FTFY.
wraith imp
spear with quick spin and massive spin plus athena is soooo good.
mossy zinc
Stygius really likes Divine Strike, too.
wraith imp
yeah, sword used to be best for athena. then the sword and hammer upgrade supernova got nerfed.
mossy zinc
Anyway, I need sleep, so good luck, and good night! 
wraith imp
Good night. Thanks for the explanations and suggestions. Take care.
rocky hatch
have fun! Let me know if she made it!
@mossy zinc happy to report that she did!
in the Styx tho, why did you choose not to go through the boss tunnels?
i thought the bosses there were the fastest way through the Styx
unless if the sack tunnel is actual predetermined before you go through the Styx
if that's the case, then huh, didn't know that
rough ermine
isn't the sack rules only:
not first
not last
pretty sure about "not first", not sure about "not last" though
frail crane
definitely can be last
rough ermine
oh yikes
tidal flame
insert 5sack meme here
daring hedge
nothing like losing a 51 heat run to hades' wonky phase transition wave
daring hedge
it's so bizarre. like, i dodged through it the same way i always do
and yet it hit me after i passed it
tidal flame
my condolences 😦
tidal flame
Not the first time the wonky hit box is mentioned though
mossy zinc
I dunno. I think it was most likely player error.
urban crater
Hades' transition damage wave thing is actually bugged
If you dash past it you don't take damage, however if you start an animation at that moment you'll take damage still
Its not like the skull waves for some reason
Some of the modders have noticed this interaction, they can probably give you a better explanation about whats up
mossy zinc
Sometimes you just have to watch a recording to see what you did wrong.
But if you know you can take damage from that, you can avoid it.
So it's still player error at the end of the day.
urban crater
Technically its player error but so would be crashing the game if it was known that would happen if you beat Hades when he was saying dialog. Neither would be intended (and thus be bugs) nor add anything of value to the game lol
Knowing a bug exists doesn't make it good
mossy zinc
Well, I'm not saying it shouldn't be fixed.
I've complained about it plenty of times myself.
Just trying to move to a more productive mindset of what can you do differently next time to avoid taking damage.
urban crater
That's why I initially posted that, trying to explain what's up so people can figure out how to avoid it
I don't think saying "its still player error" is very nice though, I think we get that
Albeit it is technically correct
blazing ocean
If you dash past it you don't take damage, however if you start an animation at that moment you'll take damage still
Found that out the hard way
shell imp
how in the world do you do high heat with something like fists? I am barely surviving 32 Heat with the bow, running around like a headless chicken
autumn sable
Probably less headless chicken, tbh
shell imp
32 heat feels a bit over the top for me, since I have to pick almost everything (since i despise Tight Deadline and Approval Process).
I guess i only have to do that once
proud jay
Chaos shield is the easiest for most people. Fists are the hardest for me
But if you go with fists I highly suggest athena boons to make life easier
shell imp
shield does make sense. Still, some of the perk combinations on Elites are pretty lame (like multiply+chainlink)
btw, why does every one says Chaos Aspect of the Shield is so strong? I tried it, and it wasn't impressive, tbh. What am I missing?
cyan stag
It's not strong per se. Its perks are the multihit special (you can either spread status across an entire room or hit one enemy with several shields at once), and that it weaves blocking into its attack loop. Alternating defense and an attack that barely needs aiming leaves few gaps to be hit.
mossy zinc
@shell imp I struggled with 32 Heat for like a week or something. It's hard. Lots of things you need to learn that didn't really matter very much at lower heats.
Lower heats, you can get hit by some attacks 95% of the time and still make it through easily because they don't do as much damage or you can heal easily etc.
But once you have a lot of pacts active, suddenly you really need to avoid every instance of damage.
shell imp
the problem im having is that enemies are both dealing absurd damage, AND its very hard to avoid because of the clown fiesta
mossy zinc
What pacts are you running?
blazing ocean
I should start to incorporate faster and harder hitting enemies in my runs as I build my heat
mossy zinc
I did 45 Heat the other day with Talos, and I had no points in Hard Labor for that.
shell imp
everything maxed, except No Tight Deadline, only a single Forced Overtime, only one Approval Process, one Jury summons, and 0 LAsting Consequences
Oh, and full access to Mirror
i hate taking away mirror abilities
mossy zinc
RI1 is fine tbh. It doesn't change all that much.
shell imp
1 is about all I can stomach
proud jay
1 is all you need
shell imp
though losing out on good rarity boons kind of sucks
proud jay
2 gets a lot harder already
shell imp
it would be nice if you could reorder the mirror
so YOU choose which talents you give up
proud jay
idk it's actually quite fine imo
shell imp
It not awful, but could be a lot better
proud jay
1 loses luxury quality boons
2 loses extra health
3 loses extra dash
4 loses death defiance
shell imp
2 loses extra damage and money too
proud jay
i still think they should be worth more, at least for RI3 and RI4
proud jay
yeah cast builds aren't really possible for something like 50+ which is a shame
they tend to be hard for 40+ too
shell imp
thats probably fine, since I dont htink the game is balanced for high Heat anyways
mossy zinc
Let's see. For Malphon 32 Heat, I would probably do something like:
LC4, CF2, JS3, EM2, BP1, MM, UC1, FO2, HS, DC2, TD2.
shell imp
20 Heat is a reasonable endgame challenge for a weapon
proud jay
thats probably fine, since I dont htink the game is balanced for high Heat anyways
@shell imp this is debatable, but it's good enough
shell imp
i'd say most people would not even bother with anything higher than 20
since the game gets less and less fun, and just more hectic
mossy zinc
Well, Amir has said that making every aspect viable for 50+ or something like that isn't really their design goal at all.
proud jay
yeah you need to learn a whole lot more once you go above 20-something
shell imp
and this is coming from someone who has a high tolerance for bs from bosses and such
mossy zinc
That said, I think every aspect is viable at 50+. Some require more specific builds than others in order for them to work, though. So, some aspects will be a lot more consistent than others.
shell imp
btw, Hades's urns should not count as traps
proud jay
150 damage is a bit ridiculous
shell imp
having them deal 150 damage with hightened security is laughable
mossy zinc
I like that, actually. Makes the fight fun.
shell imp
happened to me and i thought "uhhh, what??"
proud jay
it's maybe a bit high
mossy zinc
Yeah, I guess you could make it 2 ranks, and one of them is like +200% damage and 2 ranks is +400% or something.
Anyway.
mossy zinc
I kind of like that it's 1 Heat for so much extra damage, though. I don't know. It's kind of funny.
shell imp
how do you guys manage Elysium with Tight Deadline?
proud jay
patroclus > mid-shop > anything else
mossy zinc
Mid-biome shop, Patroclus, Chaos gates, miniboss chambers, save summons for Elysium to speed things up, make sure you have high DPS.
proud jay
I tend to use companion summons for hard encounters (armored shieldy bois, armored chariots)
mossy zinc
Generally, don't open troves in Elysium.
proud jay
also yeah, miniboss chambers make it slightly faster usually too
mossy zinc
But do open gold troves in the earlier biomes to min-max your time and resources there.
proud jay
exactly as nyaa said
also charon well items such as +armor damage are worth buying for elysium
mossy zinc
You'll also want to adjust your pacts to your aspect and general strategy.
So, like, Malphon doesn't really mind JS3 + CP2 + DC2 too much. But Hestia will struggle with any of them.
They can both make it through all those 3 pacts maxed out + TD2, but one of them will have a much easier time with it.
On the other hand, Hestia is arguably the best weapon for boss fights, but Malphon really doesn't like EM3 because it's just a really tough fight that can drag on for a long time.
shell imp
what fist aspect do you use? I use Demeter exclusively
mossy zinc
All of them.
proud jay
it's definitely faster
mossy zinc
I like Zag Aspect best, personally. It works really well with Divine Strike, and that's like my favorite build for Malphon.
Yea, Zag Aspect is definitely faster.
shell imp
not for me. I can see a clear difference if i pick up a Hermes boon for 12%, but switching to Zag has no noticeable effect
mossy zinc
My strategy for every Malphon aspect is: start with the Owl Pendant, grab either Divine Strike or Divine Dash, then go from there.
shell imp
on lower heat, i always took Zeus for the fun sparks. But for higher heat, maybe that doesn't fly anymore
mossy zinc
I dunno. The last time somebody posted a video clip when they said it wasn't faster, it was definitely faster. But send a bug report, anyway, if you think something is wrong.
shell imp
btw, if you use Lasting Consequences, Bouldy is obviously useless companion. So you do use SKelly?
mossy zinc
I use Antos for Malphon.
2 hits (great for enemies with armor), better single-target damage than Battie, much easier to time than Mort.
shell imp
i would agree that its the best of the "damage" companions
mossy zinc
Rib doesn't do much for you with Malphon because you need to get close to do damage, so you'll be within AOE of attacks anyway.
Fidi is an option, but I'm always very underwhelmed by Dusa's summon, personally.
But some people seem to make it work.
shell imp
dunno, seems worse than Antos
i dont actually know the total damage Dusa does
but it would need to be something like 43 shots to equal Achilles
mossy zinc
Dusa does more than just damage.
trim sigil
Tbh if it was not troublesome I'd have went for rough median damage measurement for dusa on bossfights
mossy zinc
My best advice is to just try out different ones, and use the one that makes the most sense to you, that you can use effectively, that helps you with whatever you're struggling with most.
trim sigil
But her main utility is regular rooms
so eh
and slapping bosses in their defeat cutscenes
maximum BM
mossy zinc
"I'm invincible!"
Anyway. Try the pacts I recommended (with Stubborn Defiance on), and see how it goes for you.
Then you can make changes from there depending on what you notice is giving you the most trouble.
Like, if you notice you can't handle that many enemies, you'd lower JS a bit and put points into something else. Things like that.
proud jay
btw, if you use Lasting Consequences, Bouldy is obviously useless companion. So you do use SKelly?
@shell imp bouldy is good as long as you have less than 100% lasting consequences
sorry, i didn't quite read the whole comment lol
trim sigil
Well, it doesn't say lc4 so to some degree it remains useful on lower lc
shell imp
lc 3 seems like you get minimal healing
proud jay
still some healing
shell imp
like,.....12 hp?
proud jay
i saw someone running lc 3 on high heat with bouldy
mossy zinc
I think Bouldy also works better with Death Defiance than with Stubborn Defiance.
SD, you don't care so much if you lose it.
trim sigil
I rely on SD for healing so bouldy was never an option 
mossy zinc
DD, you'll want to summon Bouldy sometimes to save your DD.
trim sigil
(well, it is helpful edge in bossfights, but sd also means more points in lc)
mossy zinc
I actually just use SD + LC4 full time now lol.
trim sigil
Same really
shell imp
you guys use Stubborn DEfiance? I tried it once, it was beyond awful, never again.....
proud jay
pretty much all 40+ runs use stubborn defiance
trim sigil
It is awful in a sense that your bossfights are all crippled. Other than that, it's practically infinite health if you manage it correctly
proud jay
infinite in a limited kind of sense
mossy zinc
I think I used DDs for 41 with Malphon back when that was WR for Malphon. But the meta was still settling in then, and we were just trying out everything. By now, the meta complely shifted towards SD always at 40+.
proud jay
well, i didn't use any defiance for 41
mossy zinc
Wasn't it 40?
trim sigil
(another bad thing about SD is that you are almost guaranteed to get "Death Defier" run clear message instead of something fancy) 
proud jay
I did 41 yesterday
proud jay
44 once i grow the balls to do FO2
mossy zinc
SD is the only reliable form of healing when LC4 is active.
Well, for most aspects, it's the only form of healing.
proud jay
i probably wouldn't mind if they reworked LC a bit
SD is kinda enforced now for high heat
mossy zinc
I don't think so.
You could do high heat without any points in LC.
It's just that it's easier with LC4 on lol.
proud jay
doesn't make LC a well-designed heat option even if you have the option to play without it
mossy zinc
I dunno. I think it's fun.
I'd like it if that one boon from Lord Dionysus wasn't so weirdly affected by it.
That's, like, the only thing, really.
proud jay
after party?
trim sigil
I kinda feel like SD already matches DD in efficiency on LC0, maybe 2, but LC4 blows it on top by far
mossy zinc
I think that's the one.
trim sigil
And ye after party
proud jay
yeah i don't think it should be affected by LC
mossy zinc
Or maybe just in a different way than how it's affected now.
proud jay
hardly makes a difference anyways
trim sigil
I actually did a feedback recently regarding that, heh
mossy zinc
Yeah, like you wrote in that one.
trim sigil
Although if it wasn't affected by LC at all, may end up busted
proud jay
i have a whole bunch of feedback for high heat, idk if i should make a youtube video or something to go a bit more in-depth
trim sigil
Pretty sure you could
mossy zinc
Just make sure you to stick to the rules pinned in #hades-feedback.
sharp cobalt
I just think it would be better if boons never became entirely invalidated by heat options.
Or stopped appearing if they were.
Like, Nourished Soul could still work. Imagine if it erased a bit of the LC penalty.
Like, with a common Nourished Soul, healing goes from -100% to -70% instead.
And boom, the boon is now something.
trim sigil
That'd end up being better on high heat than regularly 
proud jay
no harm in that
sharp cobalt
That's not like, some grand flaw
trim sigil
Well, it isnt too major for sure.
proud jay
either make it reduce LC's effect or make it sellable
sharp cobalt
I'm thinking about how After Party could work... I suppose it could just scale down the healing threshold. I'd ballpark it at about 5% less per LC. So it would heal you up to 20% hit points at LC 4. Though that's unintuitive, so I don't know.
(Or both. Both is good.)
trim sigil
That's quite unintuitive, to the point where it's simply inconsistent with the rest
(technically, current system does the same but with full percentages)
rather than halved/divided
Letting it ignore lc like lifesteal weapons isn't the option either since that's busted on lc4
Well, maybe it could ignore lc if the amount of heal was capped?
Like, it still tries to reach the threshold, but only heals, say, up to 10hp per room
so it's less of a burst but still noticeable help
sharp cobalt
I'm not sure if it'd be busted. It's sort of like having SD, but without killing yourself.
And without the revive option.
That's very strong though, I agree.
I just don't like the idea of a boon being negated by heat.
trim sigil
Me neither, but not everything has to be viable as well
(although plain useless is worse)
proud jay
well, a full mechanic is being negated (healing)
trim sigil
Not full mechanic, if we go very deep technically
Lifesteal, revives, and max health all contribute to current health increase but do not count as healing and aren't negated at all
(obviously it would kinda feel icky if on lc4 your revives just went poof, and you are left with 50/100 initial hp at best)
Maybe if LC indeed stopped at not 100% mark at least, it would help a lot with all healing boons being useless
After Party's threshold would still need a separate treatment however
mossy zinc
You could always just use LC3 and still get healing.
You're kind of doing it to yourself by picking LC4 for that 1 more heat.
Which I think is fine. The pact gives you so many options to alter the difficulty in any way you like.
Then some fools wise people decided hey let's just turn on everything, it'll be fine.
cyan stag
I paid for the whole Heatometer, I will use the whole Heatometer
shell imp
is 57 heat actually possible?
mossy zinc
Yes.
sharp cobalt
It's been done.
shell imp
seems like madness to me
mossy zinc
That's also true.
trim sigil
I paid for the whole Heatometer, I will use the whole Heatometer
that made me spat my hot chocolate
trim sigil
well, it's a rainy day for me okay?
there is virtually no difference between 57 and 58 aside from few select scenarios
so it's surely possible
trim sigil
Well, if you like staying in brimstone beams then one definitely can spot a difference
sharp cobalt
I feel like Personal Liability would make dad spin a lot more painful if you messed up.
trim sigil
There is an easy way to find out. Let's watch 57 heat run (if it's available) and see how many times the invincibility actually activates and how many hits it blocked
shell imp
gosh, im always so happy when Dionysus drops Premium Vintage
sharp cobalt
Premium vintage is just one of those nice things.
Health and a Pom Slice? Yes please.
mossy zinc
Second best boon he has after Dionysus' Aid.
mossy zinc
Life Affirmation is amazing.
shell imp
well, in comparison to Vintage i mean
mossy zinc
Silent carry of many high-heat runs.
shell imp
would be nice if it dropped a Heart too, like PV does
trim sigil
If you find it at the very start, it's around 45 hp in common version easily
Up to 80s in more "healthy" setups and higher rarity
It does feel meh in the end tho, obv
mossy zinc
Would be way too much if it also dropped a Centaur Heart when you pick it up. Why would you get a boon + another gold laurel reward?
trim sigil
Because then you can't sell life affirmation anymore :)
mossy zinc
It can actually be great even if you get it in the Temple of Styx.
You don't really need anything at that point. More HP is good, and there is usually at least one Centaur Heart.
It also has amazing synergy with Weak.
The more damage reduction you have, the more you benefit from each HP.
foggy ruin
Effective HP. It's a wonderful thing. Well, can be.
shell imp
how does Lucky Tooth work with Stubborn DEfiance?
do you get a second DD after your normal SD one?
mossy zinc
Yes.
Also, very important for SD: if you lose your SD and "replenish" it with a boon from Lady Athena, you get a free DD, and your SD will replenish like normal in the next chamber.
shell imp
so...its useless?
bronze viper
Lol, its use is basically identical to DD runs
mossy zinc
I don't think so. For DD, I would consider Lucky Tooth if I get into Styx with low HP and no DD, for example, to hopefully carry me to Patroclus.
shell imp
damn, just lost another 32 heat run, this time to Theseus with Extreme meaures
that fight does not feel fair, sometimes
shell imp
i was that time
mossy zinc
That's why I had EM2 in the pacts I recommended to you earlier.
shell imp
but then i need to cut somewhere else. I dont think i can manage TD2 right now
mossy zinc
With Malphon, I'd pick other pacts over EM3 even at 50 Heat.
shell imp
yikes. So its not just me then
Though, the fight is not balanced regardless. Asterius has attacks that have no telegraph
you stand next to him, and you just take damage instantly, and THEN the animation plays
also, Long Knuckle might just be the best Malphon upgrade?
the extra range is insane
mossy zinc
It's certainly a good pick.
Malphon doesn't really have bad hammers tbh. Except Heavy Knuckle on Demeter Aspect has anti-synergy with the aspect.
But otherwise, all the hammers are really buffs in some way.
Well.
shell imp
When i first took Heavy Knuckle, i was shocked at how bad it was
mossy zinc
Quake Cutter might as well do nothing.
shell imp
thankfully, Quake Cutter is not offered if you are Demeter
mossy zinc
Heavy Knuckle itself is decent.
shell imp
god, the fact that Fate rerolling can offer the same thing is infuriating....
when it does that TWICE, i just want to toss the computer out the window
ehm......back to the fists....
mossy zinc
You'll always get at least one new option.
shell imp
bleh. i dont see why i doesnt offer all new. I mean, you get at most 4 charges, and thats if you dont have Routine Inspection
mossy zinc
I dunno. That's just how chance works.
It offering all new options would be way too strong without AP and suck a lot if you have AP.
It's supposed to give you a new chance. It's not supposed to give you free control over what boons you get.
RNG is a core element of Hades.
bronze viper
For me, It's not that Asterius' attacks don't have enough of a telegraph, it's that they occupy a huge AoE and without Long Knuckle, it's extremely hard to actually be damaging him and be safe from a raw ground pound.
Idk though, it's a very common complaint that his spin-to-win isn't telegraphed enough, but I haven't had any issue knowing when he's going to do it.
40 felt pretty straightforward to me with Malphon, but too much above that and it gets pretty gross pretty fast
mossy zinc
The spin2win is fine, but his regular axe swing combo in EM3 is actually bugged, I think. Sometimes he just skips the telegraphing on that.
bronze viper
Yeah, I've heard that a lot too, but I don't think I've noticed it personally. I may not know what I'm looking for though. Do you happen to have a clip of it happening?
(also why did StyxBox not tag your feedback lol, as satanic as it is)
bronze viper
Huh... is that like... a Discord wide thing? The dice bot we use for DnD was down yesterday too
mossy zinc
It's a different bot, so no lol.
bronze viper
Coincidence then lol, fair enough
bronze viper
Lmao. It is something alright. Next you'll be wanting Cloner to appear in Elysium
mossy zinc
I just think when you start removing to many things like that, the game just ends up becoming . . . boring.
bronze viper
It's such a rare occurrence, I wasn't actually going to downvote it. It's always funny when it happens, and oftentimes the wheels teleport away from you as much as next to you.
Teleporting Chariots are their own level of toxic though. Probably some scaling should be done to not make Chariots so... themselves with virtually every BP2 combo
mossy zinc
And it's not like there aren't strategies to deal with Flamewheels, anyway. Part of the fun at high heat for me is weighing what "problems" I should focus on most in my strategy and how to get around them.
sharp cobalt
I have one and only one request for BP2 chariots.
bronze viper
I have no strategy for Shifter Chariots. Nothing works consistently
sharp cobalt
And that's that the theme changes to the Benny Hill theme every time they spawn.
mossy zinc
Like, if I think "if I run into Flamewheels with this particular aspect, I'm dead," I might decide that I will 100% run Skelly.
sharp cobalt
That's it.
bronze viper
Flamewheels are overblown. They are annoying, especially with DC, but they barely do any damage, Personal Liability shield does a lot of work, and it's very easy to juke them into each other/into walls
Speeder is... less manageable but still
sharp cobalt
With speeder you need to sort of dash through them.
mossy zinc
Another reason I said earlier that it's always funny to me when people underestimate Personal Liability.
bronze viper
I would play in Hell Mode if I didn't have to do everything all over and if it didn't force me to run JS1/CP1
CP1 is so cruel
mossy zinc
Yeah, but it's also part of the fun.
That you have to run those options 100% of the time changes a lot of things.
bronze viper
(namely that TD2 is a lot less appealing lol)
mossy zinc
It also makes Elysium and the Temple of Styx in particular a lot harder by default.
sharp cobalt
I wish personal liability was in the pact by default, as a choice.
bronze viper
What is your approach for Shifter Chariots?
trim sigil
Pray
mossy zinc
I just do things and hope I make it.
sharp cobalt
I try to avoid playing with TD, so it's not as bad to just slowly grind them out. But when I do have TD, it really depends on the weapon.
bronze viper
Mine has thus far been to dash left and right across a gap/wall and pray
mossy zinc
Maybe summon something and hope it kills them?
sharp cobalt
Casts are usually reliable in popping them?
trim sigil
Not with dc2 but yes
bronze viper
Lol, I was about to say, only builds I've ever played that popped Chariots were Merciful End, Arthur, Charged Skewer and Hestia
mossy zinc
And at high heat, it's not like you have the resources to have a strong cast alongside your primary damage source.
bronze viper
(I assume Beo special would also do the same)
sharp cobalt
Ohhh, the chariots.
mossy zinc
A lot of the time, you have a special hammer + a special boon, and that's it.
sharp cobalt
Sorry, I thought we were still on flamewheels.
mossy zinc
Or Attack.
Yeah, Charged Flight can end them fast lol.
But if you have 1 dash, it's still gonna be hell.
sharp cobalt
I honestly haven't figured out chariots yet. I don't know what sort of elder cthonic spell it is that makes them stop for a while.
mossy zinc
Even though it should be the Ancient Greek version of heaven.
bronze viper
Any form of damage if they're armorless does it
mossy zinc
Elites have 700 armor.
trim sigil
Well, heaven status doesn't really apply to intruders, which zagreus indeed is
mossy zinc
Which isn't that much.
bronze viper
Arthur aura makes them go sleepy time too lol
mossy zinc
On 52, I killed them with Charged Flight + Tidal Dashing into them immediately after to finish them off lol.
bronze viper
Lol, they're thicker than Lernie heads. That's pretty funny
mossy zinc
Similar to Asterius, oftentimes dashing through them is way better than trying to run away.
bronze viper
Unlike Asterius, I've had a lot of success dashing through Chariots
mossy zinc
Asterius didn't have a lot of success with that? Sucks for him.
bronze viper
Lol, yeah he has a virtually 0% chance of dashing through me. He's tried lots of times.
mossy zinc
He should train harder.
bronze viper
inb4 second rank of EM3
mossy zinc
Theseus & Asterius together: FU-SION HA!
bronze viper
Asterius now laughs hysterically and rides around on a Chariot
mossy zinc
While spinning2winning and throwing bombs all around him.
bronze viper
capital C chariot. As in the enemy type
bronze viper
Lol, that's definitely what it felt like the first couple of times I tried the fight.
mossy zinc
I kind of like that Spreaders are usually way more of a problem than Splitters, but then sometimes Splitters will just one-shot you out of nowhere lol.
shell imp
silly me, thinking the Pierced Butterfly served a purpose.....
but if its useful, then the run is already too easy
mossy zinc
Well, I wouldn't try it on high heat lol.
shell imp
is it me, or do some weapon have a really crappy selection of hammers?
bronze viper
depends on which weapon you're referring to
sharp cobalt
If you're good at Tartarus, I think it can be a fairly solid keepsake.
mossy zinc
I dunno. Some upgrades work better on some aspects than others.
sharp cobalt
I think most weapons have pretty good hammers, overall?
Some aspects want different hammers, but a hammer is usually a good thing.
mossy zinc
I think Pierced Butterfly is trash tier at very high heat tbh lol.
shell imp
Fist is the only weapon that has almost no bad ones in my experience
sharp cobalt
It's bad at very high heat because you really want the flexibility to swap.
mossy zinc
But it can make for fun runs. That alone makes it good.
It's not even flexibility. You're just not going to get very far without getting hit.
shell imp
^
sharp cobalt
I mean, depends.
shell imp
basically that is the problem. Past a few early chambers in Tartarus, its almost impossiblke
on high heat, that is
bronze viper
Bow and Spear have the highest multiplying hammers, roughly in that order. Fist has great hammers, but they do not multiply
sharp cobalt
Sure, on high heat. But I mean like... -High- heat.
bronze viper
Shield has one BIG one
sharp cobalt
It varies by weapon.
mossy zinc
I feel like you speak from zero experience with high heat tbh. No offense.
sharp cobalt
(wait do you mean me?)
mossy zinc
Yes.
sharp cobalt
I mean fair enough, my best is only 40.
But I can still get through at least tartarus without taking hits for the most part, if I'm really working at it. With some weapons.
bronze viper
Some tartarus rooms are more dangerous than Elysium. I've had a lot of runs end near the beginning.
Not really even because I played particularly badly or something
mossy zinc
I guess our views are very different because most of my recent run attempts are like 50+ with Zag Malphon and things like that.
So there's probably some truth in what you say to a certain extent, but my experience is just very different nowadays.
sharp cobalt
I mean Malphon isn't one of the weapons I'd say it's simple at all to avoid hits with.
I was thinking more Hestia Rail. Spear. Maybe Chaos shield if I'm on point.
mossy zinc
I usually have BP2 + JS3 + CP2 + DC1 or DC2 in almost all my runs now lol.
And FO2, naturally.
shell imp
Oddly, I find that FO has little to no effect on most enemies
its the bosses that give me a hard time
especially Asterius and Hades
bronze viper
FO2 BP2 is definitely one of the more noticeable combos in the game
mossy zinc
Tartarus is hell with all of those pacts, and it kind of just gets worse from there lol.
sharp cobalt
Yeah, I don't use DC2 too much.
mossy zinc
It's like you're trying to escape the underworld or something. If I didn't know any better . . .
shell imp
DC2 is a weird one. Insignificant for something like Fists, a pain in the ass for the bow
bronze viper
I've only found DC2 to be tolerable with Chaos, Rama, and Rail
Fists are kind of eh... DC2 is still pretty threatening because it means you have much more delay before you can stun lock things
mossy zinc
There are no pacts that are insignificant once you're at 50+. Everything has a huge effect on your run.
shell imp
maybe "less significant" would have been a better phrase
sharp cobalt
Maybe? But at the very least, DC2 is going to make rats a big problem in Styx. Though even getting there is an ordeal. DC2 just adds a not insignificant amount of time spent per enemy.
mossy zinc
DC2 makes Hangover/Lightning essentially mandatory for certain aspects at very high heats.
bronze viper
I've only found DC rats to be truly problematic for weapons that have a thousand years of startup like Bow (and Chiron in particular ugh)
sharp cobalt
Poor Chiron. I only managed my high heat run with Chiron that had DC2 thanks to Dionysus Dash for the rats.
mossy zinc
Daddy DeGrand always says that you should really think of heat as multiplicative. Which is a good way to think of it. The higher you go, the more every single point of heat matters.
bronze viper
Of every aspect I've played I think Zeus + Lucifer cares the absolute least about DC2, but it has so many other problems the higher in heat you go, so it's kind of moot
shell imp
I havent used it much, but im guessing that having to stand still to attack is a problem......
bronze viper
The nerf in range and the lack of ability to destroy projectiles are big minuses.
mossy zinc
lol I picked Lucifer Aspect once or twice on 50-something Heat after unlocking it with RI3 on, and I've never wanted to pick it again since.
shell imp
speaking of nerfs, was Dual Shot for Bow nerfed in range? I swear the range is so tiny now.....
bronze viper
Twin? Nope
mossy zinc
Twin Shot, and no.
Unless it's like some ancient change from long long ago that neither of us knows about.
bronze viper
At absolute highest heat I think Rama and Chaos are the only aspects that can thrive in DC2
Rama has its own issues, but they're mostly consistent damage output with AP2
shell imp
Approval Process has got to be the most unfun Pact Condition of all
shell imp
hmm, yea, RI is in the same ballpark
bronze viper
The thing that annoys me most about RI4 is that it requires RI3 lol
shell imp
this is why it would be nice if you could reorder the mirror
so you can adjust to the build you are going to run
bronze viper
No... the progression they have definitely makes sense, I was mostly meming
sharp cobalt
Being able to reorder the mirror would make RI 1 and maybe 2 fairly free.
shell imp
progression is reasonable, I will give them that.
sharp cobalt
Though it's a nice thought experiment. Which 6 mirror boons would you give up first?
bronze viper
There are a lot of garbo mirror talents lol
shell imp
Infernal/Stygian soul if you are not a caster
Boiling Blood and Shadow Presence
then probably the first 3 that are listed right now
sharp cobalt
That's a lot of free damage you're losing.
shell imp
Maybe Shadow sticks around a bit longer
sharp cobalt
Losing Cthonic Vitality/Dark Regeneration is a pretty easy gimme at high heat.
mossy zinc
At Steam launch, the pact worked differently and gave you more control over what mirror talents to turn off. Though, I don't remember how it worked specifically.
shell imp
Deep Pockets is pretty forgettable if you are already using Convenieve Fee
mossy zinc
Deep Pockets is great.
mossy zinc
Unlikely if you're spending on higher heats, which you should be, and you want the obols early on to spend them early on to kickstart your build before Elysium.
sharp cobalt
Or to buy a throwaway boon from charon so your main boons don't get nommed by underworld customs.
shell imp
it seems that even if we reordered the mirror, it wouldnt change THAT much
mostly Chtonic Vitality would get bumped up the Mirror
sharp cobalt
It would make RI3 easier. You'd keep... I guess Health, Death Defiances and Thick Skin?
shell imp
not the Dash?
bronze viper
For me, order is roughly (bad -> good, assuming non-cast build)
Shadow Presence
Chthonic Vitality
Infernal/Stygian Soul
God's Pride
Olympian Favor
Privileged Status
Deep Pockets
Thick Skin
Boiling Blood
Fated Persuasion
Greater Reflex
DD/SD
sharp cobalt
Dash, Health and Death Defiances.
shell imp
wow, Fated Persuasion is that high for you?
bronze viper
Reroll are absurd
Considering how highly I take key rooms at high heat, starting off wit 4 is nuts
sharp cobalt
Rerolls are probably even more valuable when you have AP2 I'd say.
mossy zinc
I'd rank Shadow Presence about the same tier as Boiling Blood.
bronze viper
I could see that, but I'm personally quite inconcistent with positioning backstabs in boss fights
mossy zinc
I suppose so, but I make a lot more use of backstabs in normal chambers than of Boiling Blood.
So they're pretty equal imo.
bronze viper
Oh for sure I rarely press the cast button outside of Tartarus and boss rooms
shell imp
btw, anyone use Abyssal Blood? to debuff tough enemies?
bronze viper
I like it
mossy zinc
Depends on a lot of things, but yeah.
Abyssal Blood is fine. Just personal preference imo.
bronze viper
If you don't derive most of your damage from attack/special direct damage, ti's great
mossy zinc
I have a tendency to run TD2 always with pacts that make TD2 harder lol.
sharp cobalt
Abyssal Blood is perfectly respectable.
mossy zinc
So Boiling Blood for more damage speeds things up.
bronze viper
So e.g. Eternal Chamber Lucifer + Zeus, or Relentless Volley DioRama
(I've started taking Boiling with the latter though because damage was getting to be a real issue towards the end, but it's super not necessary until extremely high heat)
sharp cobalt
Honestly, the main reason I don't like using Abyssal Blood is that it messes with my timings.
I'd rather just get used to full speed enemies.
shell imp
one wonders why Fiery Presence is so trash. Shouldn't the bonus be a lot higher? Since it only ever procs once per enemy, where you could get 10+ backstabs.......?
mossy zinc
I feel like an aspect like Hades doesn't really need Boiling Blood and could maybe benefit a lot from Abyssal Blood instead. But @daring hedge would have better insights on that.
I think Fiery Presence is really good.
bronze viper
I don't lol
trim sigil
Fiery Presence feels like "0 heat hestia rail memes" check
mossy zinc
But it's just really for certain aspects that want it, and it's a balance between clearing chambers way better and having faster boss fights.
bronze viper
I think it's about as good as High Confidence (which is honestly not the worst for speed running at least)
shell imp
the additive nature of the game makes these bonuses weaker
mossy zinc
Fiery Presence can often be the difference between needing 1 hit to kill and needing 2 hits to kill.
shell imp
someone mentioned Hades Spear - that +150% damage overshadows a lot of other stuff
mossy zinc
Or needing 2 hits to kill vs needing 3 hits to kill.
And that over a whole region can make a huge difference.
bronze viper
I got Hades to 40 once and I never touched it after that, so I can't really confirm. It's additive as well right?
The Punishing debuff
trim sigil
Yes
shell imp
it would be grossly OP if it just multiplied all damage by 2.5
bronze viper
I was super surprised to find out recently that Eris is multiplicative, so it kind of threw all the aspects into question for mel ol
shell imp
thats like making every hit critical
mossy zinc
Additive really isn't as much of a problem tbh.
mossy zinc
Relatively, it's not a huge % bonus, maybe. But all you really care for is how many hits you need to kill, at the end of the day.
trim sigil
Well, eris isn't exactly multiplicative since it does state the base dmg change
But ig in a sense it's an effective multiplier
shell imp
i wonder, would Eris be better if it just had one bullet? so you don't have to relaod every single time?
trim sigil
If you get used to reloading having only 1 bullet is worse
Since sometimes you can finish off foes with regular shots
bronze viper
Wait, what, are you guys talking about Hestia or Eris?
trim sigil
mossy zinc
Hesteris.
trim sigil
Hysteria
shell imp
i shall just call it "Sniper Rail"
mossy zinc
Eristia.
shell imp
everyone know what im talking about then
bronze viper
Lol, so let me rephrase. Eris aspect, the one with the explosive that makes you deal bonus damage, is apparently multiplicative.
shell imp
oh my bad, Eris is the AOE extra damage one. I was talking about Hestia
trim sigil
Hmm, well if it wasn't multiplicative that would just feel bad, but it is, so neat
shell imp
yea, the game could be clearer with these things
trim sigil
Oh for sure
There are a fair lot ways to separate these terms
Even by consistently using "more damage" for multipliers
bronze viper
Using x1.5 instead of 150%, using Path of Exile more/increased less/reduced, color coding
the world is their oyster
mossy zinc
How about an easier solution.
shell imp
Urge to kill is the kind of boon that really wants to be multiplicative
mossy zinc
Just make everything additive.
trim sigil
Then beo charged flight will die in pain
bronze viper
They'd have to rebalance a whole lot to do that lol. I don't necessarily disagree with it, but a word/color change is a whole lot easier
mossy zinc
No, it doesn't!
bronze viper
Lol, I wonder what kind of stupid heat records got broken by release Rama special + Thunder Flourish
Just left unreported
mossy zinc
It just makes them worse strategists for not using Charged Flight while it's broken just barely usable like it is now. (Please buff Charged Flight.)
Well.
Is it a record if it hasn't gone on record?
bronze viper
I didn't play with old Spread Fire so I can't attest to its old broken, but holy cow release Rama was by far the most broken thing I've done in this game
(for those who haven't used it, it fired faster, every shot proc'd Thunder Flourish, and that's not even including Relentless Volley)
mossy zinc
Thunder Flourish worked just like it does now.
bronze viper
Huh, yeah, I'm looking at videos from tech beta now. I wonder why Thunder Flourish felt so much better then than it does now hmm...
mossy zinc
Just better fire rate in general.
bronze viper
Yeah I ran an experiment using tech beta footage, looks like the fire rate was reduced by around 20-25%
mossy zinc
I'm pretty sure it was any rarity. It just affected everything in the animation, so it became a machine gun lol.
Pretty sure there's like a minimum delay or some unaffected part or something now.
daring hedge
Late response but yeah abyssal blood can definitely work on hades aspect. I believe either my 47 or 42 before the 50 used it instead of boiling blood
mossy zinc
I think it was more "didn't get around to adjusting this yet" than a bug.
daring hedge
I do pick boiling blood most of the time lately just for the extra tiny push during the elysium roadblock
mossy zinc
We got to play some of their latest builds in the beta, after all.
mossy zinc
@tidal flame generally, for those kind of runs you want to test-run JS3 CP2 DC2 TD2 with a very very basic version of the build you want to go for.
And as you know from speedruns, I'm sure, the build isn't everything, playstyle and practice matters a lot.
So it will show you things like, I'm wasting way too much time vs this type of enemy (e.g., Greatshields).
tidal flame
It feels clunky. Maybe an acquired taste.
mossy zinc
Right. I mean in general, anyway.
tidal flame
Understood.
mossy zinc
Which can mean, I need maybe consider making something else a priority in my build.
Or maybe I need to run a different summon and use them in those particular rooms.
Or maybe it's just that you are actually wasting time because you play too scared of their attacks and need to be way more aggressive, or there's something in your toolkit that you aren't using at all that you should be using.
Things like that.
When something feels clunky, it doesn't always mean it's bad. Often you've just not thought of the right strategy yet.
Some aspects I can't make work with JS3 CP2 DC2 maybe, and I think okay for this aspect I should just avoid those, and then somebody else comes along and does it no problem lol.
tidal flame
Or maybe it's just that you are actually wasting time because you play too scared of their attacks and need to be way more aggressive, or there's something in your toolkit that you aren't using at all that you should be using.
Don't worry. I facetank every attacks like a champ
mossy zinc
That kind of stuff just shifts my perspective more and more from "this problem can't be solved" to "HOW can I solve this problem?"
And when I find one solution, I still want to find a better solution, something that's more consistent, etc.
One time, I DMd Amir about a BP2 combo that felt broken at the time, and a couple days later I DMd him nvm I think I figured out a good strategy, just need to run into them again to test it lol.
somber leaf
I notice people in the high heat runs never go to Chaos, why?
trim sigil
AP2 + Chaos = death
by many tools as well. 80% more foes, -5hp on your main attack action (attack/special/cast), slower actions. For stuff like extra darkness and +30% cast dmg on attack build
frail crane
Also LC makes the damage to enter even worse
somber leaf
makes sense
SD makes it easier, though, no?
ohhh, right, AP2 makes sense haha
... 32 heat is hard, guys! it seems I need either no healing, no choice in boons/sell them all, forced overtime, or tight deadline (and I can't handle 60% more baddies at 30% more life in Elysium, can't even imagine Styx)
bronze viper
I wouldn't say "never". With TD2, sometimes you take Chaos gates in Elysium to shorten the path, with a key or 3 or help minimize the chance of getting screwed
mossy zinc
Also LC makes the damage to enter even worse
I don't think LC matters too much for that because of SD.
I sometimes just don't have the HP for a Chaos Gate, though.
You're also skipping potential trove chambers, and ~120 obols can make a bigger difference than a random Chaos boon that you probably needed to spend a reroll on.
shell imp
what about using the Shattered Shackle and just maxing out Approval Process?
basically playing Boon-Roulette, because you dont really care
shell imp
yes
mossy zinc
What did you die to when you tried that?
shell imp
lets see, there were many deaths......
since i was trying the entire time we were talking last time
never made it to Styx
hmm, i dont think i recall exactly what it was, since i dont remember which run that was exactly - i tried a couple thi ngs
but most often it was just too much damage from mobs
mossy zinc
LC4, CF2, JS3, EM2, BP1, MM, UC1, FO2, HS, DC2, TD2.
Hmmm. I guess, lower JS and put a rank into AP instead.
shell imp
not finding enough Hearts as well
stuff like Barge of Death feels close to BS when used with Jury Summons and Benefits Package
mossy zinc
Benefits Package has no effect on the Barge of Death.
I think neither does JS.
It's Middle Management that changes the fight.
shell imp
whatever it is, when you stack FO with it, it seems impossible to avoid taking a lot of damage
mossy zinc
Anyway, from JS3 to JS1 AP1 should help a lot if mobs are a problem.
In addition to that, you could go from DC2 to RI1 instead. Move the points there.
JS1 and no DC would make all the regular encounters a lot easier than JS3 DC2.
shell imp
DC doesnt really bother me that much
not with fists
bothers me quite a bit more with other weapons (especially the Bow)
mossy zinc
Well, if you're dying in regular encounters, that's one of the factors that adds a lot to that. When everything dies slower and doesn't get stunned for at least 2 hits, it just makes everything harder. I wouldn't underestimate the impact it has on a run.
shell imp
I might be of this opinion because for almost all of my Fists runs i take Zeus attack, which tears through DC like paper
mossy zinc
You'll take damage from enemies that would already be dead without DC2.
I don't think there's a good argument to make Lightning Strike your first choice for Attack.
shell imp
i suspect that it might fade a bit on higher heat, where not dying becomes a larger concern
mossy zinc
Top priority is Deflect on Attack or Dash—or both.
Second is Curse of Agony on Attack if you have Divine Dash for Merciful End.
Lightning Strike is by itself as good as Curse of Agony, but unlike Doom, it has no meaningful synergy with Divine Dash.
scarlet yoke
You can't also stagger/interrupt enemies that have DC2
shell imp
no credit for the sparks hitting distant enemies?
mossy zinc
So, Lightning Strike is like the third choice maybe.
no credit for the sparks hitting distant enemies?
Like I said, it can kind of match Curse of Agony in DPS.
But it's nowhere near Merciful End DPS.
proud jay
painful 4-sack
https://i.imgur.com/LzuklUH.png
blissful rock
alright boys
first time on 32 heat
what should I do
probably chaos shield zeus
shell imp
i feel super salty - had an Erebus chamber with Heart reward (with Life Affirmation), and got sacked by a single Skull that just dashed right into me as soon as it spawned......
proud jay
is this first or second phase?
@foggy ruin second phase
what should I do
@blissful rock you probably want to avoid TD2. other than that, it's really flexible
get jolted if you can
man you even got blessed by patty
@foggy ruin patty had actually ran out. maybe could've made it if it were active in Hades fight. the item i have there is +500% trap damage to foes
bronze viper
i feel super salty - had an Erebus chamber with Heart reward (with Life Affirmation), and got sacked by a single Skull that just dashed right into me as soon as it spawned......
@shell imp Erebus gates with Malphon and BP2 are always kind of a gamble. Unless you play extremely carefully, you're pretty likely to get an onion.
proud jay
yeah i don't like taking erebus gates with fists
shell imp
greed took over though. That extra 72 hp i would have gotten......
proud jay
unless the chamber offers aren't attractive at all
so anyways, hades didn't get me this time! another big boy upload incoming
bronze viper
no credit for the sparks hitting distant enemies?
@shell imp Another way of looking at it is that attack damage-based fists gain a lot of synergies with Chaos, Hammers, and damage boons. Zeus only cares about himself, thus if you get a run without much Zeus, you're working with base damage until the end.
Going Divine Dash lets you hedge--if you get Ares, you an pretty easily get Merciful End using his keepsake in Asphodel, but if you get Aphro or Artemis, you can go the crit route and supplement damage with Support Fire.
shell imp
only Concentrated Knuckle improves fist base damage, as far as I know
which does make Zeus a bit worse when you take it
but in any case, I underestimated the power of having such easy deflect
just now, Tisiphone lost 1/4th of her health in half of a second, because I deflected the wave of green stuff she threw, and it all went into her face
proud jay
as i've went up in heat, i've only included more and more deflect in my runs
shell imp
Long Knuckle + Athena Attack is money
bronze viper
Breaching Cross, Concentrated Knuckle, and Heavy Knuckle all heavily benefit from going attack damage
Breaching Cross the least since it's additive (but hilarious with Crit in general)
bronze viper
Yeah but it works nearly the same for Zeus as it does an attack build unless you get Chaos or go crit
proud jay
yeah doesn't really make a difference
so i can finally say that both chaos and beowulf shields are stupidly overpowered
mossy zinc
@proud jay bad feedback. Go away. Call for Chaos Aspect nerfs instead or something. 
trim sigil
both bad feedbacks. nerf chiron bow, nobody should get effortless dps like that
proud jay
Im still all for chaos nerfs too
bronze viper
Why bother. I'd prefer moderate buffs to other stuff honestly
It doesn't hurt my experience for CHaos to be good
mossy zinc
I can't make Chaos Aspect work for me, either way. Me and Chaos Aspect just don't vibe lol.
So I'm very unaffected by any changes to it.
cyan stag
I mean, how would you even nerf Chaos (besides, I'm more ofin favor of buffing the less used aspects instead of nerfing the popular ones)? Reduce base damage of shield copies? It's all about the on-hit effects anyway. Reduce bullrush charging speed? That could work, but I'm not certain it makes a difference.
bronze viper
You could slightly slow shield travel time, increase how long the attack takes before you can charge
give bull rush a tiny icd
mossy zinc
Why slightly?
We nerf the competition, we do it right.
Only main shield gets any bonus from boons.
There.
Done.
tardy path
That's just zag aspect with eyeball clones
trim sigil
Well, that's how it works a lot of the time
Hera is just zag bow that yoinks your casts
tardy path
I'm curious...
tidal flame
Hi curious im Fox
tardy path
How did you reach that conclusion Fox?
tidal flame
Shield is a bow that's invincible while charging and shoot bouncing arrows
Sword is short ranged bow
Rail is a bow that shoots tiny arrows
You get the concept.
crystal iron
shield is definitely a bow when you get the hammer upgrades that turn bull rush into a ranged attack with minotaur rush upgrade
mossy zinc
How did you reach that conclusion Fox?
By avoiding thinking.
crystal iron
had a run with those 2 hammers recently, unfortunately it's hard to make Battle Rage work with bull rush
tidal flame
Rude.
tardy path
Dumb.
proud jay
Im starting to lean towards athena attack/special over aphro or artemis
Just feels like the best choice especially for 50ish heat
bronze viper
For which aspect?
proud jay
Yeah, all of them
Basically ones that don't go zeus or ares
Or dio
Im convinced high heat would be easiest if you were offered only Athena
bronze viper
Tailesque made zero Athena look so easy though :3
proud jay
Yea i don't have the skills for that
mossy zinc
If you only see the successful run, of course it looks great.
proud jay
That's also a valid point, but t's sorta impressive it's the dio attack without athena that made it
mossy zinc
But wasn't it like really low heat?
proud jay
Highest there is for spear
proud jay
Shield competes in its own category
mossy zinc
Nope. Same category!
It's just good strategy to use the better weapon for the job.
And that is Zagreus Sword.
We should all use Zagreus Sword.
Or Chiron.
One of these two.
proud jay
Zag sword 
If only dash builds were worth exploring
Speaking of weapons way above others, 53 heat beowulf cleared
With that juicy athena special
mossy zinc
Yeah, I saw your victory post.
trim sigil
Tbh chiron bow because zag sword is mostly around getting merciful end. chiron is open ended
You can pretend its special is worth something and gather volley hammers. Or you can just cosplay bad zag bow with it
mossy zinc
Well, we need weapons for max heat. So the damage is fine tbh lol.
proud jay
Not sure how beo should handle dc though
mossy zinc
I do.
proud jay
But there's some spare time to play with
trim sigil
support fire
mossy zinc
I mean, I do know how lol.
proud jay
Go for 54 or 55 heat
mossy zinc
I dunno. I only got to play 2 runs since school started this week lol.
I'll still probably try some high-heat runs, but I can't predict yet how the lack of daily practice will affect my performance.
Maybe on the weekend I'll get some time to play.
proud jay
What do you study btw
mossy zinc
High school. 👸🏽
proud jay
Oic
mossy zinc
I'm class president now. So that means I'm super awesome and everyone has to do what I say.
I . . . I think that's how it works.
mossy zinc
That's going very off-topic lol.
tardy path
Lessgo then OwO
proud jay
I dont think class presidents are even a thing where I live
wraith imp
Now that I'm trying to consistently do high heat (re: 40+), I've come to the realization that most runs are seeded/routed.
It's not just about the boons. The enemy types are rough. Some of the combinations I've faced are truly diabolical.
I estimate that I've watched over 150+ successful high heat runs and they seem much easier than the foes I've faced.
Someone please correct me if my notion/suspicions is wrong.
proud jay
i find armored chariots and flame wheels in elysium the hardest if i don't have good enough movement/dashes
asphodel is a bit hard without deflect, but you can take your time there
otherwise im generally not too concerned about enemy types, even if some are a bit tougher than others
wraith imp
I must have had crazy beginner's luck because I beat 42 heat on excalibur and chaos shield about a month ago in about 5 tries so I was feeling myself.
Now? I'm struggling through tartarus on 42 heat with chaos shield. I'm beating the fury sisters about only half the time. I haven't gotten past elysium in about 40 tries.
Tight Deadline is a killer.
bronze viper
I personally only seed runs at the highest heat that I can. Or sometimes if I see a good hammer in room 1 then I'll test if APx keeps and I may try a higher heat run from there
I don't bother at 40
And never because of enemy types
When you see the recorded high heat runs, you don't get to see all the failures.
Seeding refers to room 1, yeah
wraith imp
Since I'm a noob, I have a question about terminology:
Is seeding just referring to the first boon? Or is it referring to a series of rooms/boons/choices?
For instance, after about 40 tries, I finally got a boon at the start where zeus gives me all epic tier choices (attack, special, and cast) which is ideal for chaos shield. So I reset to the house because I plan to use that start over and over and over to practice.
Does that count as a seed?
(Sorry, deleted my previous post and reposted it again after making an edit.)
bronze viper
You've gone the general play loop of seeing runs, yeah
What I will do for practice since I'm screwing my win rate and records anyway is that I will practice with whatever on the weapon, and die organically, and keep doing that until I find what I'm looking for
You don't need epic boons (or specific hammers) or whatever to get through tartarus. It's only in Elysium that it starts mattering. Might as well get the first two biomes down.
The first two biomes are way more about mechanics and not getting hit
Routing refers to anything else. Any RNG manipulation outside of guaranteeing the first room
wraith imp
Got it. Thanks.
bronze viper
I personally think the line is a bit more gray than others here. It's a relatively contentious topic, though the current consensus is seeding good, routing bad
After all, it feels fairly arbitrary to say "No routing past room 3" (which is usually the earliest room you can get a boon after a Hammer in room 1)
wraith imp
I don't have an opinion on it.
And interesting tidbit about hammer. Now that you mention it...yeah...whenever I got a hammer in an unseeded run, I didn't see a boon until room 3. Sometimes, even later.
bronze viper
I say usually because I think Erebus gates in room 1 can still have boons. Pretty sure only blue laurel rooms can spawn in room 1 if you have a hammer though (someone correct me if I'm wrong)
wraith imp
Given how hard 40+ heat runs are, i wish SGG would have some kind of internal algorithm that replaces all darkness/gemstones with boons/poms/hammers whenever a player sets pact of punishment to 40+.
That's what I would do if I was SGG to make it more manageable.
Getting darkness, gemstone, darkness in 3 consecutive rooms is just frankly infuriating.
bronze viper
You would land in this weird situation where 40 heat would be much easier than 39 lol.
Anyways, I like the feeling of gemstone rooms pushing me over a 270 gold threshold, or nectar rooms granting "free" poms
wraith imp
I see your point but that's the arbitrary nature of trying to balance the RNG of the game.
bronze viper
RNG is an intrinsic quality of this game. At the end of the day, the only functions are "how many times can I get hit" and "how many times do I have to hit them". Everything else is details.
So it's not like a travesty or anything if you see a bunch of darkness rooms or whatever.
With AP2 and UC, you also would prefer to not go in boon or hammer rooms more often than not, to control what gods you have and to avoid getting hammer screwed
Lol, 9/10 times in Tartarus I'd rather take a darkness room than Demeter
wraith imp
RNG is an intrinsic quality of this game. At the end of the day, the only functions are "how many times can I get hit" and "how many times do I have to hit them". Everything else is details.
@bronze viper
Sure. That's the natural conclusion of a reductionist approach.
But getting darkness, gemstone, darkness screws with it imo.
I would rather always take a boon, hammer, or pom than take darkness or gemstone.
I'm not as worried about a bad boon because I almost always feel underpowered in high heats.
bronze viper
Your mind will change dramatically if/when you start playing with AP2 + CF2 + UC. It changes the valuations by a lot.
wraith imp
I'm using CF2 and UC now. (I've never gone above AP1.)
I basically ignore gold and charon rooms. I use his rooms to just save time and zoom by...
bronze viper
Boon and hammer rooms are a trap in AP2. Most builds will have at least 2 hammers that brick them, and boon rooms could get you into situations like this: https://imgur.com/a/5Q3YzsJ
proud jay
yeah i've decided to just not buy boons from charon right before hades just because it has the low chance of an exchange
so i just enter the fight with 400 gold instead
bronze viper
I got epic Dio call that run though and I realllly wanted to keep it. Demeter was the random boon in the shop lol
proud jay
dio call is so good
wraith imp
See...I play with LC1 (-25%) so nourished soul would work fine for me there.
proud jay
the problem with nourished soul is that you can't sell it for underworld customs
which can be an issue sometimes
bronze viper
The funny thing in that picture is that it wasn't APx that killed me. It was Demeter all by her lonesome
wraith imp
Sure. But that's why I want more boons...to have more choices to sell one off.
And I also keep one key for situations like this.
mossy zinc
Lol even without AP that boon would have been a brick.
proud jay
there are these rare situations where i wouldn't mind a rare crop
mainly hestia and beowulf
bronze viper
The typical strat in Tartarus is to keep 1 boon, or 2 boons + 270 gold. That way, you benefit the most from Poms and Nectar.
wraith imp
I wouldn't feel as constrained if i had 3-4 boons to choose from when exiting tartarus.
bronze viper
You also run into the awkward siutation at 3 boons where there's a 25% chance your fodder boon won't show up
mossy zinc
My strat is to RNG into 3+ boons from Lady Athena + anything else in Tartarus.
trim sigil
Now that I'm trying to consistently do high heat (re: 40+), I've come to the realization that most runs are seeded/routed.
It's not just about the boons. The enemy types are rough. Some of the combinations I've faced are truly diabolical.
I estimate that I've watched over 150+ successful high heat runs and they seem much easier than the foes I've faced.
Someone please correct me if my notion/suspicions is wrong.
@wraith imp I know it has been a while since the msg, but wanted to add 2 cents
"I estimate that I've watched over 150+ successful high heat runs and they seem much easier than the foes I've faced." is because of successor bias
Runs that get bad foe combinations and terrible loot do not win as often, simple as that
proud jay
the amount of Athena boons i want is always n+1
mossy zinc
Yeah, what @trim sigil said.
I actually really don't want Sure Footing.
That one is ironically bad lol.
Unless you get it right before Hades.
proud jay
i don't mind if i pick it up in styx
wraith imp
Runs that get bad foe combinations and terrible loot do not win as often, simple as that
@trim sigil
Sure. I've realized that by now. But what's interesting to me is the % of runs which end badly because of this.
I doubt there's an accurate measure of that available.
proud jay
i get thrusted by elysium traps sometimes though
bronze viper
It's a lot lol
somber leaf
why is Sure Footing bad?
proud jay
sure footing is bad compared to most other athena boons imo
bronze viper
It doesn't do anything until Styx
Traps are generally quite manageable to not run into
mossy zinc
More than that.
somber leaf
hah, tell that to the spear guys. "don't want" led me to believe it's actively bad, though, not just sub optimal
mossy zinc
It will take much longer to kill yourself with traps if you have Sure Footing.
bronze viper
I mean, I die from wall traps in Elysium all the time but I nod my head and recognize it's because I'm trash lol
trim sigil
Oh there sure isn't a percentage like that
From my own experience 90% of runs end in tartarus tho 
mossy zinc
And you want to kill yourself with traps a lot to heal up with SD before the next chamber.
bronze viper
Depends on the build. I am a lava magnet with Nemesis so 90% of my runs end there atm.
proud jay
asphodel is a lot harder if you don't have deflect
bronze viper
My current Hades break is exclusively because of my Nemesis salt lol
wraith imp
From my own experience 90% of runs end in tartarus tho :baddyhueh:
@trim sigil OH SNAP. REALLY?!?!?!?
If this is accurate, then it makes me feel a lot better about myself.
mossy zinc
Wasting seconds like that can end up costing you the run with how tight TD2 can be in Elysium.
wraith imp
asphodel is a lot harder if you don't have deflect
@proud jay Yeah, I've realized this.
bronze viper
Speedy Wavemakers are also pretty rage inducing. It's extremely hard to react fast enough to dodge a wave that was cast off screen if it's speedy
mossy zinc
Now try Asphodel with Personal Liability and no deflect lol.
wraith imp
Speedy Wavemakers are also pretty rage inducing. It's extremely hard to react fast enough to dodge a wave that was cast off screen if it's speedy
@bronze viper Yes!
Now try Asphodel with Personal Liability and no deflect lol.
@mossy zinc What is personal liability?
mossy zinc
Extremely hard is an understatement. I can't react to off-screen waves from speeders lol.
bronze viper
It's not impossible though. It only takes a couple of times of this happening to me before I use my extra time in Asphodel to make sure I know where everything is
honest charm
@wraith imp personal liability deactivates the cute little shield you get after taking a ton of damage. It's mandatory in hellmode
mossy zinc
That cute little shield can activate a lot in Asphobullethell.
wraith imp
oh...i haven't played hell mode a single time.
mossy zinc
If you don't have deflect on melee, especially.
bronze viper
Me neither. That's mostly laziness though. I don't want to grind everything out twice
A little because of teeny tiny things like the 15 free health you get from bounties lol.
mossy zinc
I can honestly say I never realized how much it actually triggers until I had to play without it lol.
wraith imp
I'm reading up on hell mode on wiki. I don't get the point. Someone help me understand what the benefit to hell mode is...
bronze viper
It's a hard mode for hardcore 1337 gamers
mossy zinc
You can laugh at normal-mode commoners.
hollow lynx
(there's no point lol)
mossy zinc
It's fun and challenging.
wraith imp
But it's the same thing as pact of punishment.
bronze viper
It's literally there to soothe the egos of people who refuse to play a game at the normal setting
hollow lynx
the final nail in the coffin will be when sgg finally adds personal liability to normal mode
bronze viper
Even though Hades is literally "Hard Mode: the Game"
mossy zinc
The pacts that you can't turn off in Hell mode make a big difference.
shadow zodiac
oh what pacts cant u turn off?
bronze viper
Personal Liability, HL1, LC1, JS1, CP1
shadow zodiac
what does personal liability do?
bronze viper
The blue shield that you get when stuff hits you a lot, it's gone now
shadow zodiac
ohhhh
bronze viper
Most noticeable from Brimstones and witches multi-hitting you
mossy zinc
Lysol said that like 5 minutes ago lol.
shadow zodiac
that'll suck when you have something like guan yu aspect
youll be ded before you know it
mossy zinc
Actually, I would say it's more noticeable from Louts or Thugs hitting you in Tartarus.
bronze viper
It's more lethal from Louts or Thugs lol
shadow zodiac
hmm the heavy hitters make sense
tidal flame
personal liability means one thing
mossy zinc
They usually trigger it because you have like no HP yet.
honest charm
it's a cute blue shield
bronze viper
Hades double spin as well
mossy zinc
Nah, you can still dash away from Asterius pretty quick lol. But he'll definitely hit a little harder with it.
shadow zodiac
oh god asterius would chew through you like your melted cheese
bronze viper
If only
shadow zodiac
literally melting you
mossy zinc
There's no double spin.
bronze viper
What am I thinking of? He does a 2 part attack in phase 2 that's extremely fast, and both have aoe, I thought.
shadow zodiac
well when 1.0 starts ill also start a new save with Hell mode, ill see the effects first hand then
honest charm
it's a double swing with a spin after it
mossy zinc
There's 2x swing into spin.
Yeah.
You can deflect the swings.
I should sleep lol. Good night!
bronze viper
@shadow zodiac That's actually a good idea, I'll probably do that too
honest charm
gn