cough cough sword
#h1-high-heat-strategies
robust zephyr
mossy zinc
For Divine Strike and Frost Strike it's Lv.5. For Heartbreak Strike it's Lv.6. For Deadly Strike, it's +5% average attack damage for every +4% attack damage due to crits, so that's more worthwhile. It reaches that point where every further level is +5% average at Lv.3 already.
daring hedge
what are these in reference/comparison to nyaa?
for divine and frost being lv. 5 and heartbreak lv. 6
mossy zinc
There's a minimum of +4% for each pom level for Attack boons. Lv.5 and Lv.6 respectively are the point where each further pom only increases the damage by that minimum.
mossy zinc
Still potentially useful, but that's like the soft cap for them.
mossy zinc
lol
tidal flame
is it me or did they add one extra chamber in Tartarus?
mossy zinc
Maybe he gets some sudden boost at Lv.20. I did not specifically test that.
daring hedge
poseidon finally becoming good after a grueling 20 pom levels
mossy zinc
That's so Poseidon, too.
daring hedge
fox i was going to make a joke about fighting charon and adding a chamber but, i honestly don't know if it adds one or takes the place of the chamber after the shop
mossy zinc
"Oh hello, Nephew. I forgot to add damage to your Attack boon. Let me just get to that right now."
tidal flame
tartarus defintiely has one extra chamber
mossy zinc
defintiely
tidal flame
also I just 6 shotted Meg
daring hedge
they should add one to asphodel while they're at it then
mossy zinc
If they remove 2 chambers from Elysium. 
daring hedge
we can only hope
robust zephyr
LOL I tried massive spin with hades aspect on the barge of death and its so big that it disappears
daring hedge
or get a downright abnormal elysium with 2:37 remaining on the TD2 clock when it's done, easy
yeah the visuals for hades aspect and massive spin is a little buggy with boons
i f10'd it
it seems to cut off short, abruptly
mossy zinc
That's the high heat strat. Reroll for Elysium until you get triple 20.
robust zephyr
It only happened for me in barge of death so far
daring hedge
ah, it happened to me throughout a run when i had deadly strike
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/654076105321480226/728151625310535680/20200701193232_1.jpg like...
this was just unreal honestly
i gaslighted myself into making it seem like TD2 elysium at that heat was fine
41, i mean
since it doesn't show there
robust zephyr
Damn i usually get there with like 50 seconds left
daring hedge
you all need to know that it's possible!
robust zephyr
or i dont get there
mossy zinc
My Elysium high-heat strategy is dying in Tartarus or Asphodel.
robust zephyr
Wow I have a similar strategy looks like great minds think alike
mossy zinc
daring hedge
robust zephyr
haha i remember this
I remember getting stuck on lava and a fishing spot was there and I died because you cant escape the fishing minigame even after failing
daring hedge
wait like, you take lava damage during the fishing period and while pulling up your bobber?
that's so evil
mossy zinc
Well.
robust zephyr
lose all dd right there
mossy zinc
Have you tried not doing that?
daring hedge
:hypnos:
robust zephyr
heh not like i tried to
mossy zinc
But you didn't specifically try to not do that, either.
daring hedge
robust zephyr
I now have the highest paranoia when i see a fishing spot in asphodel
daring hedge
have you ever been mashing the pickup button/key to get your chamber reward but a fishing spot is directly on top of it
so you start fishing instead
mossy zinc
I haven't.
robust zephyr
I remember fishing on the ground once in beta, f10ed it but it was funny
mossy zinc
Lernie's summon was flailing away at me in my last run even after Lernie was killed. Immediately started hitting me after the Lernie Defeated message.
Very cheap.
daring hedge
i had this happen to me yesterday too
daring hedge
rakers finding ways to be even more unlikable
mossy zinc
I F10d it. Don't know if it's a bug, but I think they should just die once you defeat the boss.
fallow stream
Yes
mossy zinc
Longspears have almost no recovery on their attacks, either.
daring hedge
especially speeders 
mossy zinc
It's fine when it's just 1 or maybe 2, but when it's a group of 3 or more, they just keep attacking persistently without a break lol.
daring hedge
oh, yeah, another BP elysium experience that was new to me up until recently, and one that i hate now: speeder+teleporting brightswords
their weird, erratic no-telegraph swings they do sometimes?
just on top of you in an instant
mossy zinc
lol
daring hedge
from nowhere
mossy zinc
I'm going to save any chambers I die in or lose a DD in on high heat, so I can just practice those chambers.
robust zephyr
I think its actively making a backup of the save file
robust zephyr
and replaying it
but thats too much work for someone like me
ALso dont have the drive to fail the same room a gillion times
daring hedge
seamares are the easy part though
i know where nyaa is coming from, where you have to deliberately delay your reaction so you have access to common fish
the struggle is real
hollow lynx
the one time i got a scyllascion i was forced to give up that run
robust zephyr
they should make a daedalus hammer emote
hollow lynx
then i got a knucklehead 
mossy zinc
I have completed the codex entry for the Chlam at last.
robust zephyr
Have that chaos fish left myself
mossy zinc
I have 0 Chaos fish lol.
robust zephyr
is it wrong that i have the opposite problem 4 projelly no voidskates
not even joking
daring hedge
lol
mossy zinc
By the time I see one, they appear in every Chaos Gate and give 10 Obols.
robust zephyr
wait they give obols?
daring hedge
a joke about how they're less valuable now
daring hedge
they used to give diamonds/blood/ambrosia
robust zephyr
need to max out fated authority still
hollow lynx
bring back pre-patch chaos fish rewards
mossy zinc
I "need" to max out Fated Authority, too.
robust zephyr
yeah i remember getting blood before
mossy zinc
As in, I have everything else maxed out on both sides.
robust zephyr
1 blood for the 1 in a million times im gonna get that
hollow lynx
fated means literally nothing to me
mossy zinc
robust zephyr
reroll wise
hollow lynx
but my completionist side needs the blood for the weapons
daring hedge
10 charges
robust zephyr
I just got 9 done
mossy zinc
I think Charon is in a weird place now where you don't want to fight him on high heat because of TD2 and HL5 etc., while players who still play on lower heat will probably have a very hard time against him.
daring hedge
yeah, he's not even remotely something i consider at 40+ because of those two pact options in particular and FO2, etc.
mossy zinc
I mean, I have a hard time against him on low heat lol. He's pretty brutal.
I've only done the fight like 3 times, though.
fallow stream
He refuses to appear for me when I'm loaded and can lay the smack down
daring hedge
and the reward for beating him being somewhat cancelled out by convenience fee
fallow stream
Only when I'm thin on boons
mossy zinc
Fighting him with TD2 in Elysium is barely an option even on low heat.
fallow stream
I've been losing to TD2 in Elysium way more than usual lately
mossy zinc
If you can beat him without losing a DD on high heat and still make TD2 in Asphodel or Tartarus, it could be very worth it especially if you get some obols+% from Master Chaos.
fallow stream
I even posted a failed run where I had it in the bag if I had cleared
mossy zinc
But that's a lot of ifs.
fallow stream
Oh, I was close. I had 30s on the clock when I started the Boss fight, and I killed Asterius and blew up the chariot
I just needed about 20hp more and I coulda killed Theseus. It was the 10s waiting that killed me
daring hedge
EM3 honestly makes TD2 elysium so much harder than it already is sometimes
that's why i opted out for the recent 41
mossy zinc
5 sec waiting for every single spin2win adds up.
fallow stream
In the end, I took too many hits rushing the fight. I had the HP, but took too many bumps from the chariot taking it down
mossy zinc
Yeah, that's the other thing. If you try to speed things up, you take a ton of damage.
fallow stream
I was using fists w/ merciful end, not the spear
mossy zinc
Sadly, no one ever yet has managed to clear Elysium on 40+ with 2:37 remaining.
No one.
That's why they need to make some changes to Elysium.
Merciful End and still not making it in time says a lot.
daring hedge
TD2: now 5 minutes per biome!
fallow stream
Check the end of my video in self promotion
mossy zinc
Thanks, @daring hedge.
fallow stream
I only got merciful end after the Asterius mini boss
mossy zinc
Oh, that's pretty late.
daring hedge
EM3 affecting asterius in his miniboss form in terms of beefy health is still really rough
you could say that you don't have to contend with MM but like
let's be real, MM soulcatcher is fast
fallow stream
Easiest miniboss to me is soulcatcher
mossy zinc
I've been told his HP is actually unaffected. Only Theseus's HP gets a buff.
daring hedge
oh, interesting. must be placebo from having to avoid him in general more often during the encounter
mossy zinc
Placebo would be if your belief actually increased his HP pool.
Which I would find very concerning.
daring hedge
coming to a blood price patch near you very soon 
mossy zinc
Is this power how you cleared Elysium with that time?
daring hedge
my power of will allowed me to find the fountain chamber and pat
and also have chambers that weren't too taxing i suppose lol
mossy zinc
I died to the Champions on 13 Heat or something in my last run with Nemesis. Whoever told me Flurry Slash with Divine Strike is like Malphon lied to me. It's way inferior.
Should have just picked Double Edge.
mossy zinc
I got rare Swift Strike, I think. Still inferior.
fallow stream
I had said you need swift attack. Rare minimum
mossy zinc
With that said, I take no responsibility for my loss.
This is all on you, @fallow stream. I died because of you.
fallow stream
🤣
daring hedge
time to scold stygius for being slower than some fists
mossy zinc
The hitbox is inferior, and the lack of "lock-on" to automatically face the enemy.
Maybe it's just the latter.
fallow stream
Which aspect?
daring hedge
i don't think i would ever turn down double edge on a nemesis run honestly
fallow stream
Shadow slash is every bit as good as double edge, imo
mossy zinc
Probably, but I need experience with all the upgrades.
I had Double Edge for all my previous runs for Nemesis. Figured I'd try something else this time.
daring hedge
i think double edge is better on nemesis than shadow slash in terms of pure speed, considering the dash-strike to special weaving there
but it's still plenty strong, yeah
mossy zinc
You can also hit and run with Double Edge.
fallow stream
Shadow slash applies to attacks and dash strikes though
mossy zinc
Easier to buff, too, with Hunter Dash and both Dash-Strike and Attack boons from Master Chaos.
fallow stream
It's a preference thing
mossy zinc
Does it really?
daring hedge
yeah, it's a flat backstab boost basically
mossy zinc
Your Attack deals +200% damage when striking foes from behind.
Does specify Attack. I've no idea.
fallow stream
I'll have to test. I'm almost certain it affects dash strikes though
daring hedge
i'd say if you're running hunter dash, double edge is significantly better for general use, still
otherwise, it could go either way depending on the situation
mossy zinc
Double Edge has higher damage potential, anyway, because it doubles your base damage before any modifiers. Backstab is additive, I'm pretty sure.
daring hedge
it is, yeah
daring hedge
i kind of am not a fan of shadow slash in concept aside from how it performs in gameplay due to how little it actually has to do with sword as a weapon
same with hoarding slash
they could go on anything
mossy zinc
?
I dunno, some people are having a lot of fun with Hoarding Slash. So it serves its purpose anyway.
fallow stream
Take the shackle, sell all attack and special boons throughout the run
daring hedge
i'm not saying the idea itself isn't fun, exactly. more so that it seems like there was some trouble thinking up new hammers for sword
it could have been called hoarding jab and slapped on spear
that's all i mean
mossy zinc
I like the idea of Snap Nova.
daring hedge
i haven't tried snap nova yet lol
fallow stream
I hate it
mossy zinc
It's fun for Special-focused builds.
fallow stream
Mostly because I'm sometimes forced into it, then I'm expecting to snap nova on my subsequent run
daring hedge
at least it's received a damage boost now
fallow stream
I do not like how you can recall it before it lands
That's my biggest issue with it
mossy zinc
Mostly because I'm sometimes forced into it, then I'm expecting to snap nova on my subsequent run
This is why my Malphon runs without Divine Strike don't tend to make it very far.
I do stuff like Dash-Strike into waves or punch into melee attacks and take a lot of damage for it lol.
daring hedge
it's honestly not too different
just more positional awareness
and not being in front of them, facing them all the time lol
fallow stream
Tell that to the Lernie boss fight
mossy zinc
There's quite a lot of difference. I can do a lot of things with Divine Strike that I can't do with other Attack boons.
fallow stream
Snap myself into lava and facestomps all the time
daring hedge
okay fine, you can't be nearly as reckless when you're not running divine strike
is that better
fallow stream
I've been practicing more with frost strike and heartbreak strike because I was getting too sloppy using divine strike all the time
daring hedge
i don't have this problem because i run lightning strike
fallow stream
Lightning fists is fun too
mossy zinc
It's not recklessness, it's stuff like timing my punches to Deflect almost all of Hades's deflectable attacks etc. That fight without Deflect changes a lot.
Divine Strike vs Divine Dash is quite a big difference, too.
daring hedge
i mean, that behavior translates (roughly) into recklessness without divine strike
mossy zinc
Yeah, but with Divine Strike it's making the most out of your Deflect.
Basically what I'm saying is.
Divine Strike takes a lot more skill.
And that's why I'm not as good without Divine Strike.
daring hedge
your brain is simply too big now to go back without it
mossy zinc
Because I focus on high skill boon.
daring hedge
you are truly evolved
mossy zinc
Yeah, that's just how it is.
I'm sorry everyone, I'm too skilled to go back.
Deflect buffs when.
fallow stream
I only find divine dash reliable for deflecting ranged attacks anyway
mossy zinc
Divine Strike: now Deflects a few frames before you press the Attack button
fallow stream
I've watched myself get hit 9000 times with the barrier up
I basically have to iframe with it anyway
daring hedge
huh, it's always been pretty reliable for me
to the point of deflecting attacks after i'm done dashing
and i notice it being very generous
fallow stream
Yeah it doesn't do that for me
I've legit seen the screen pause and trigger my SD when I'm clearly in the dash animation with the shields up
mossy zinc
Hopefully Amir will take notes later when he reads our ideas.
Maybe you got hit on dash startup frames?
daring hedge
yeah, i was thinking the same thing
mossy zinc
Or pressed something that canceled your dash.
fallow stream
I finally stopped trying to dash strike through stuff with it though. That was a problem for a while
daring hedge
dash-strikes can cancel i-frames from conventional dashing yeah
mossy zinc
Like how I pressed Cast here after my dashes and got hit by the shockwave that's three miles behind me. https://imgur.com/a/eI4WH5l
fallow stream
It looks like you got hit by spear though
How do you know it was the Shockwave
Damage amount?
mossy zinc
No, he's just raising his spear for the urn summon.
This was immediately after the shift to his second life. He doesn't do a thrust that fast there.
fallow stream
Ah
My favourite is when I over dash into the Shockwave travelling away from me
Always fun to unnecessarily lose health
mossy zinc
Yeah, never dash away from shockwaves lol.
daring hedge
i remember when the MM skullcrusher waves used to have the most harsh hitboxes
to the point where i-framing it with a single dash felt nearly impossible
it has since been cleaned up a bit iirc
fallow stream
No, I mean dashing into the Shockwave, but going far enough to hit the other side of it
fallow stream
And sometimes I get caught in a weird place where it'll hit 2-3 times going through me when I do that
mossy zinc
How many times do you dash to do that lol.
fallow stream
Twice
I jump the gun every now and then
Dash too soon
Usually happens when there's a skull behind me and Hades in front of me
And I'm too close to the skull to make a proper judgement
mossy zinc
fallow stream
😆
fallow stream
Le sigh... Another TD2 timeout vs Theseus
Almost identical to my last one, except I didn't have merciful end this time
honest kernel
honestly theseus and asterius are probably the hardest bosses because of their outnumbering you and also their blocking.
health wise I always have a much much harder time with them than even the final boss- theyre the one I either die on or lose too much health to where i cant make it through styx.
fallow stream
The last time I fought them I only had 30s on the clock and I still just about beat them, but I had merciful end.
This time, I didn't, but had 80s on the clock, and came up just barely short again.
You can watch the previous fight I posted in self promotion to see how quick you can potentially cut them down
mossy zinc
About 300 runs in, and I still don't like the EM3 fight.
Malphon gets punished hard just for trying to even attack Theseus because he's just a zooming hitbox that hurts if you get close. And Asterius spin2win you can't hit either. Then you have to dash through shockwaves all the time to hit Asterius . . . something like Hestia has none of those problems.
Tempest Strike even with Storm Lightning doesn't do a lot of damage on Malphon. The knockback doesn't lead to any extra damage 95% of the time.
It's just too little knockback. You can punch enemies right in front of walls or pillars and not see any wall slams.
severe vector
It’s silly how fast EM3 Theseus can just turn and run you over with with forced overtime on lol. It really does feel bad to be melee in that fight except for Excalibur.
By the way should I swap my companion since lasting consequence makes shady less potent? But at the same time I feel like as a result of the higher difficulty I appreciate the healing more than ever sometimes.
foggy ruin
I've gotten into a rhythm when fighting Theseus under EM3 which is basically going in and out dash striking him from behind. I will only unload on him when he stops and starts preening like an idiot.
mossy zinc
Now if only Patroclus shows up, we're good. https://imgur.com/a/ZJK3DoD
Also Divine Protection please.
Flamewheels. Flamewheels everywhere.
severe vector
Yeah I think my biggest problem is getting too scared about my timer so I wail on him and then he spins around then runs me over lol
honest kernel
think I'll just do 38 heat without TD bc elysium keeps destroying me
bright crescent
not sure how people pick pact punishments
just kinda seems overwhelming past a certain point
trying for my 32 heat run
mossy zinc
Who wants to continue that run for me? Just press Continue. I got some things I need to do.
I had a bit over 2 minutes for the fight but no chance lol.
I've realized I really don't like not having a summon in the first boss fight with Battie.
hallow stream
hold attack button athena go brrrr
tidal flame
No you don't
mossy zinc
Alright, time to continue. The goal is to pick up the obols.
I made it to the obols, but Asterius's axe got there first.
Ow.
tidal flame
F
autumn sable
Antos solves all Fury fight woes
Actually, I could be convinced that Dusa is low-key the best summon. Unironically.
tidal flame
just kinda seems overwhelming past a certain point
Yeah. And past a certain there is no reason to pump the pact anyhow, except for personal achievement.
autumn sable
At a certain point, there’s no reason to do anything at all
tidal flame
On a long enough timeline, everybody's survival rate drops to zero.
bright crescent
im perfectly fine with some pact of punishment perks but some just land me in a pickle
hl lc and cf are three i try not to touch
fallow stream
@mossy zinc my strategy on EM3 Theseus is basically to fire off casts at Asterius when he uses his tornado spin, and then go after Theseus until he stops. Best way I've found to maintain DPS throughout the fight.
The only other thing I've ever done is to dash back and forth through the tornado if I have something like Thunder/Mistral dash or lightning reflexes plus extra dashes. But that's a rare thing for me to have on my builds. It does work though
I agree the Chariot mobile hitbox is a problem for Malphon for sure
lofty sable
Typically I usually go for FO2, MM, DC1 (when I’m not doing something like Hestia rail or Hera Bow), TD1, with CP1 and EM2
mossy zinc
Yeah, that's the idea. But when Asterius spins and Theseus zooms around the arena at the same time, you really don't get to hit anything for 5 seconds.
autumn sable
The safest spot I’ve found if you’re looking to fight Theseus whiles he’s 2 fast, is right behind him. If you have many dashes you can keep up and stay right behind. If few or no dashes you have to cut corners but he’s never too fast to do some damage
fallow stream
It's the ricochet bombs that generally cause issues
autumn sable
If you’re chasing him, he moves fast enough that the bombs will never hit you if you keep up
fallow stream
But yeah, tailgating him is best
autumn sable
Except for when he cuts through the middle cause he slows down
fallow stream
They sometimes bounce off pillars and give very little warning before they land on those instances... You never had that happen?
autumn sable
I’ve had that happen plenty. Tailgating is still a safer spot, generally speaking
They still bounce behind so you’re generally moving away anyway
mossy zinc
I had no Support Fire or Hunter Dash or anything—and only a common Poseidon's Aid. There really wasn't any way to win that fight in just a bit over 2 minutes lol.
Well, I have the save, so I can try again a few times, but I don't think there's any way really.
daring hedge
EM3 really just exacerbates elysium TD2 in the most poignant ways, truly
a double boss forcing you to stay away or give chase for a huge part of the fight
not to mention the one million years of invuln theseus gets after his chariot is destroyed
fallow stream
I haven't come to a conclusion whether or not the health reduction on Asterius final if you fight him as a miniboss is truly impactful.
mossy zinc
Having to fight him before that takes longer than any other chamber, I would say.
autumn sable
It’s probably worth 5-30 seconds depending on your dps, quite honestly
fallow stream
It would satisfy me to have him at 50% health for the final fight... I think that would alleviate many issues
Particularly on EM3
autumn sable
I still feel he is faster than a bad Elysian standard chamber though
daring hedge
the work you put in during the miniboss encounter certainly doesn't translate in a super satisfying way for the actual fight later
which i understand
in terms of balance, but still
autumn sable
I would guess he has 1-2k less hp based visually and based on how much summons do
fallow stream
Now I'm annoyed.
I had a sick heart rend + deadly reversal build on fists, and I STILL timed out in Elysium
I almost want to post the video link in feedback
Just to show what a ridiculous issue it is
I even had to sell off parts of it at each biome, and I got them right back on the very next boon.
Totally improbable run, all for naught
Got to boss with 6s left on the clock, lol
tidal flame
What is your pact setting?
autumn sable
It might be worthwhile, actually. It seems like you’re having disproportionate issues with TD.
fallow stream
I'll show after this run
tidal flame
Real talk I would not mind more rooms in Tartarus and Asphodel
As long as they are guaranteed to be gold room
That was we can better prep for Elysium
So combat TD by adding more rooms in Tartarus and Asphodel, actually unironic.
fallow stream
So, this is what I cleared 40 on twice, but it's been a challenge lately. I've been toying with the idea of just going LC4 and taking JS down a notch, because what does 25% healing really do anyway? There's also the argument that CP1 would be quicker overall than JS1
tidal flame
Yeah I run 40+ with LC4
The alternative means a couple of points in JS and CP which I can't take.
fallow stream
There's some rooms that feel like they spawn 5x more enemies than others
It's crazy, particularly in Elysium
fading star
I've pondered the enemy spawns for quite sometime now. I've wondered if there is an rng that rolls stating "this room is going to have X number of enemies * Jury Summons" and sometimes you get very few enemies and other times they just keep rushing down like a waterfall
fallow stream
It's just frustrating to have a stellar run, where you've gone to Erebus and aced a couple rooms for bonus health and boons, just to get stopped by the clock
I only do that in Tartarus, fyi
fading star
I'm sure most of us only do Erebus in Tartarus. Even on lower heat runs I've rarely beaten the Asphodel Erebus room
I know your pain @fallow stream. Hell, I had the classic "Awww, you didn't pick the sack room and you had to go through all 5 of them to die to a timer... gg next."
fallow stream
Lmao
frail crane
We were just talking about that in #h1-discussion xD
fading star
I also don't like that Erebus rooms are timed. The room you can't get hit in and you ALSO have to deal with a timer? Nice
fallow stream
It used to be fairly standard. 2-3 regular rooms, or 1 miniboss room + 1-2 regular rooms
Only rarely did RNG screw me in those
honest kernel
erebus on TD1 is cool for me but it does get dicey at TD2
fallow stream
The reward is worth it, particularly for health
honest kernel
idk you dont have to pick it if you dont have the dps I think
fallow stream
Unless I MUST have a boon or hammer, I try to go for Erebus health always
honest kernel
elysium is just the main timer choke point for me always
fallow stream
Theres an argument that taking Erebus in Elysium might speed things up if you just don't go for the reward and clear the room as fast as you can
honest kernel
probably
fading star
I've never considered that actually
fallow stream
Or... You could get the megagorgon elite...
fallow stream
I almost never take Erebus in Asphodel
Unless it's really juicy and the regular options are terrible
fallow stream
Has the summoner Lernie head always dropped large boulders from the ceiling?
I thought only the one with the ram horns did that
zinc scarab
so what are everyone's thoughts on new zag shield?
personally I love it as it encourages an attack/dash strike playstyle I remember playing when I first picked up shield.
hardy bobcat
do you guys know any good builds for Guan Yu?
struggling trying to figure how the aspect works
honest charm
It hits really hard
and the special has a massive hitbox
aphro or arti (I prefer arti) on the special will just kill everything, especially if you have charged skewer
divine strike turns your spin into a complete joke, especially if you have quick spin; you can just hide behind your spear and never take damage
zinc scarab
Poseidon on the special is fantastic as well
Less direct damage than aprhodite, but knockback
basically, hunt for charged skewer for a special build, and pick up quick spin if you get the chance
honest charm
you can also get rupture which can help you apply privileged status
hardy bobcat
hmmm
daring hedge
@zinc scarab same! new zag shield reminds me of my core offensive loop waaay back many updates ago
zinc scarab
I used to never bullrush as it took far longer than looping attack/dash attack and speeding around
I'm really excited to see what people do with it!
hardy bobcat
@zinc scarab @honest charm Thanks!
daring hedge
and i'm guessing that the attack boost applies to bull rush as well, since it's still a form of attack
sounds very flexible and fun
definitely want to get dashing wallop with it
zinc scarab
Glad to help out @hardy bobcat
I'd imagine hunter dash would be pretty decent too
both the attack and dash strike now do the same damage as a bow dash strike
It appears bull rush doesn't get affected by the damage increase however!
zinc scarab
Pulverizing Blow might be nice (attack hits twice no knockback)
daring hedge
was thinking the same
zinc scarab
Yeah, it's definitely an actually exciting Zag aspect bonus thankfully
daring hedge
eyeing that and dashing wallop for reborn zag shield now
zinc scarab
Maybe something like hunter dash/divine strike? decent damage and opens up the opportunity for deadly reversal
daring hedge
could definitely work yeah
zinc scarab
Yeah, just very excited all around for this change
There's actually a reason to pick up zag shield
daring hedge
for sure
tidal flame
ohhh
daring hedge
also that un-nerf to GY special hitbox
daring hedge
and hades mini spins being bigger
hoo boy
lightning reflexes being able to carry jolted could be interesting for some priv status shenanigans now; you could activate it with dashes alone (reflexes+jolted and another status base dash boon like passion dash, etc)
fallow stream
Hades spin stilll makes me laugh
frail crane
as in, dad's, or the spear's?
fallow stream
It makes all of Tartarus and Lernie trivial
frail crane
I didn't get it until Styx xD
fallow stream
My first run I got massive spin as the very start
I immediately rolled Tartarus in like 4 minutes
autumn sable
Rip all high heat post-patch 47 Lucifer runs
honest kernel
Just gotta let off the fire button sometimes when you're dashing to avoid damage.
autumn sable
How dare you introduce a skill gap into my gameplay loop
honest kernel
Neener neener.
tidal flame
What happened to Lucy?
honest kernel
They fixed Dash i-frames persisting through Dash-Strikes and increased cooldown again for on-hit effects.
fallow stream
I think I may have found a problem with the skull earring. Can someone else confirm this:
When SD triggers and returns me to 30% health, the damage bonus does not activate. I actually have to drop below 30% health
tidal flame
yup
it has been that way since Nighty Night
Someone wrote a feedback on it a while ago
but perhaps you can submit another one
fallow stream
I will. There is actually another problem too. SD restores less than 30% health
Just noticed
I intentionally walked on traps with 100 max hp, and it only restored me to 30 health
Oh wait
Nevermind. Math is hard 🤣
static plover
lmao
fallow stream
My brain keeps rounding up to 1/3
zinc scarab
We should all take screenshots and never let them live it down.
fallow stream
I could have deleted it, but no... Too funny
It's kinda dumb that an obvious intended direct synergy between SD and skull earring hasn't been fixed
autumn sable
Probably means it is neither obvious nor intended then
fallow stream
I dunno man. SD revives you to 30%, skull earring activates damage bonus at 30% or less. Says so right on the description
Having said that, they'll probably go in the opposite direction and drop the threshold to 29%
tidal flame
The devs probably used < instead of =<
autumn sable
Fix implies it’s broken. We know SGG sees all the feedback. For all you know they choose to leave it that way
Which means it’s neither broken nor not intended
tidal flame
I mean I agree that it has been this way since forever and SGG is probably aware
but oversight exists
fallow stream
Then they should change the description
honest kernel
Deep breaths, dude.
tidal flame
nope, you can nectar it
fallow stream
Ah
tidal flame
Amir is aware, at least they posted here saying that they saw the report
40 damage Splitting Bolt to 56
fallow stream
So... Lightning fists with long knuckle got me to within a hair of Beating hades. Gonna try that again
vivid crater
is our spin bigger than daddy's now?
actually I feel like I tested this but I don't remember anymore
oh that's why splitting bolt had a level on it
tidal flame
yeah our spin is indeed much bigger than daddy's now
forest vortex
honest charm
I discovered something rather shocking and important today: I'm actually bad at the game.
bright crescent
so what youre saying is sg should buff hades spin to match the size of hades aspect spin
honest charm
you can hit entire tartarus/styx rooms with that monster
tidal flame
I still die to Hades with that girthier spin so ¯_(ツ)_/¯. I guess size doesn't matter if you don't know how to use it.
tidal flame
did you die to TD in Elysium again?
daring hedge
forgot to add it to the game too
mossy zinc
I haven't played yet today, but in my heart I've already died to TD2 again, yes.
tidal flame
how about trying a new Elysium strategy and die to Asterius miniboss instead
like I did for 2 out of the last 3 runs
mossy zinc
- Twin Fists: fixed Dash-Upper not staggering foes as intended
I noticed that yesterday, but I thought the Exalted were just a lot cheaper than I had thought lol.
tidal flame
I like him, too, but EM3 hurts
severe vector
i'm a cheap chaos shield user
tidal flame
I noticed that yesterday, but I thought the Exalted were just a lot cheaper than I had thought lol.
That would not be a problem if you whiff every Demeter uppercut
Virtually no difference
daring hedge
yeah, the work you put in on his health during the miniboss encounter not directly translating to the main boss fight hurts with EM3
mossy zinc
Why are you whiffing? Git gud.
tidal flame
i'm a cheap chaos shield user
if it works, it works
daring hedge
if only asterius had LC himself so he couldn't heal inbetween 😔
severe vector
wait does he not get weakened for the final battle
tidal flame
he does
severe vector
if EM3 is on
daring hedge
he does, but not the same amount you deal during the miniboss
severe vector
oh, okay
tidal flame
what Tail is saying is that he wishes the cow stays at 25% health
daring hedge
and it just hurts more on EM3 with everything else lol
mossy zinc
Yeah, why don't the pacts affect all the enemies. RI4, everyone has 50% HP and Hades has no DD. Boom.
severe vector
oh yea that would be amazing haha
tidal flame
Hard Labor now doubles your damage 👀
mossy zinc
Also no Boiling Blood.
daring hedge
i can't believe i never interpreted phase 2 hades as him using a DD
but that's so true
mossy zinc
How did you not notice? You've been mirror-matching him the most.
I'm happy the Hades spin now feels like a proper Hades spin.
severe vector
i wanna do the triple spin tho
tidal flame
what triple spin?
autumn sable
Hades is actually the older version of Zag this whole time and the exit is just a portal
mossy zinc
It's two swings and then a spin.
severe vector
whatever he does when he activates his DD
mossy zinc
tidal flame
Lightning Rod should work like that
severe vector
yea if you mouse over the debuff, it even says boiling blood
daring hedge
lol
tidal flame
I know, but that thing chunks so hard it's difficult to associate that with our puny bloodstone
mossy zinc
Is it actually +100% additive with HL5 or +50%? I know regular spin hits for 40 while HL5 spin hits for 80 and for 120 with Boiling Blood.
daring hedge
+100% for HL5
mossy zinc
I mean is the damage buff he gets from Boiling Blood additive or no.
because Blood Boil spin does 160 damage
No, it hits for 120.
daring hedge
ah
mossy zinc
With HL5.
mossy zinc
I've done the fight what felt like a hundred times in the past few days. It's 120.
fallow stream
Should I math this out for you all?
severe vector
i just realized i had my run easy because i didn't take HL
mossy zinc
It can be 40 base damage + 100% HL5 + 100% Boiling Blood = 120 damage. Or it can be (40 base damage + 100% HL5) * 1.5 Boiling Blood = 120 damage.
That just means you had to put points into some other pacts, so it wasn't necessarily easier.
severe vector
i think without HL he does 80 so it has to be 40+40(100%+100%) with HL right?
fallow stream
The final value = don't get hit
severe vector
or just acorn it 😄
fallow stream
Damage modifiers touch base value on Hades
mossy zinc
I haven't paid attention lately when fighting him without HL, but I do think it's 80, yeah.
tidal flame
if it's 80 w/o HL then Boiling Blood is not a multiplier
mossy zinc
FoxHope has finally come to the same conclusion.
tidal flame
Or it can be (40 base damage + 100% HL5) * 1.5 Boiling Blood = 120 damage.
you wrong
git gud
severe vector
when is it worth it to switch from DD to stubborn defiance btw?
mossy zinc
Arguably when you use LC4.
tidal flame
when your LC is larger or euqal to 3
mossy zinc
But not necessarily.
tidal flame
pretty much, I use it at LC3 even
severe vector
i used it on LC2 but felt like i didn't make good use of it
tidal flame
25% healing is not that much
mossy zinc
@tidal flame it's not like SD is helping you at LC3.
honest charm
at least y'all aren't dying at 17 heat for a peach challenge, like me
tidal flame
17 heat is still die-able
mossy zinc
I did yesterday.
honest charm
I literally got killed by Tis last run
severe vector
the peach challenges look harder than 32 heat lol
tidal flame
I recommend Nemesis, Hestia, and Chaos.
Basically strong weapons that don't need much to be decent
mossy zinc
Not really, but I was too impatient vs Hades because my DPS was zzz. So I only started playing serious on my last DD, and he decided to do omni-beams at the same time 3 skulls went off lol.
tidal flame
Lol that's not RI3 in the challenge
mossy zinc
With Nemesis, by the way.
honest charm
freakin' lol
tidal flame
xD
honest charm
RI4 is still more exciting
tidal flame
I mean go RI 3 or 4 if you want
mossy zinc
The challenges are all fairly doable for newer players, too. I think that's the idea. Just to have some fun and inspire creativity.
severe vector
okay i try challenge
honest charm
I wondered why peach's challenge was 15 heat 😆
fallow stream
Is there a way to tell when he's gonna go 360° beams vs just triple?
tidal flame
Phase 2 always omni
mossy zinc
I actually did RI3 too lol.
severe vector
above 50% hp is triple below 50% is 360
tidal flame
Phase 1 always triple
fallow stream
Ah, ok
mossy zinc
(He can't.)
severe vector
buying anvil is the more scary part of that challenge lol
fallow stream
Just take a bad hammer
mossy zinc
You don't get to choose lol.
tidal flame
Not like you can choose xD
mossy zinc
AP2.
fallow stream
Oh yeah
honest charm
I've gotten snap nova twice
severe vector
okay that's actually so chaotic haha
mossy zinc
Snap Nova is good.
tidal flame
Pray to RNGESUS
severe vector
i think snap nova can brick a build if you built opposite to it beforehand
tidal flame
Now you know what it's like to play Hearthstone or Darkest Dungeons
mossy zinc
The challenge somehow sounds actually less exciting now that I know it's RI1 and not RI3 lol. (No offense to anyone.)
honest charm
snap nova can be good, but it messes up my RI4 zoom aspect combo
daring hedge
onyx mistakenly did it with RI3 yesterday
they were basically like "why was this so hard" and just..
mossy zinc
I've no idea how Snap Nova is supposed to "brick" a build.
tidal flame
RI1 is so that you can't roll
severe vector
you can still roll though if you pick up keys
daring hedge
the formatting of the pact options in the challenge image was a little weird, to be fair
AP - 2, RI - 3
mossy zinc
Yeah, that's not really community standard.
daring hedge
where AP2 is where there's no mistake, while RI - 3 implies third level relative to the format for AP
honest charm
I've no idea how Snap Nova is supposed to "brick" a build.
@mossy zinc it reduces your control over where your special ends up
without it you can special in place, or dash-cancel in any direction
with it...
fallow stream
You can dash cancel out of snap nova
mossy zinc
That doesn't "brick" a build, though.
tidal flame
It kinda does
honest charm
if you have low health and no DDs, it's enough
tidal flame
Several people are typing
severe vector
i did do it before they changed snap nova though, i dunno how it is now.
daring hedge
snap nova has increased special damage now, at least
fallow stream
Yeah, because it sucks
severe vector
it was like early beta when i got to try it and i was doing a mostly special build with double special i think with minimal attack damage. then i tried snap nova and it felt really over for me in elysium when my main damage dealer move became so erratic and drastically lower in dps 😐
daring hedge
double nova losing the reduced nova size is pretty nice, to go on a brief special-related tangent
i thought it was pretty good even when it was reduced
light sedge
It’s situational, like most things in this game. It’s good for extra mobility, like when using Ruthless Reflex
mossy zinc
I mean that's an issue with you not controlling Snap Nova well. It's not an issue with Snap Nova per se.
mossy zinc
The snapback definitely has i-frames, and I'm very sure the forward lunge also.
severe vector
hmm so are you supposed to use it to initiate then how do you control the second one to hit the same enemy? dash away from the target and use it?
mossy zinc
The more I use it, the more I like it. The extra damage now makes it even better.
light sedge
What second one, the rebound?
severe vector
yea the rebound
fallow stream
The rebound doesn't hit
light sedge
I think you’re supposed to be intentional with it, so don’t spam it
fallow stream
It just... Snaps you back
severe vector
so do i just use it then run around and use it again?
fallow stream
The key as radish said, is not to mash the special button
light sedge
Yes, no damage on the snap back
severe vector
use it like hera lol
fallow stream
Otherwise you just swing back and forth with no hit
light sedge
It’s not made necessarily for special heavy builds
I think it works best with attack builds, like nemesis
mossy zinc
Special > 3-hit combo > special to follow up. Works great with Nemesis.
The snapback gets you out of a lot of "oh snap" situations.
light sedge
Yea, I like it a lot for that
mossy zinc
Especially with RI3 when you only have 1 dash, I really appreciate the extra mobility.
light sedge
It’s good for stripping armor too since you can get close attack and snap out
mossy zinc
RI4 run, I'd definitely hope for Snap Nova.
fallow stream
But then starting a new run after using it makes everything weird
lofty sable
Hmmm... I wonder if it will be considered a challenge to beat the game on the very first escape attempt (aka the 'tutorial' run). It's sort of like a mirror-less run but harder
honest charm
I did it on the nighty-night update
mossy zinc
It's sort of like a mirror-less run but harder
Not really because you can do RI4 and stack other pacts on top.
But if it's just RI4 and nothing else, a first run clear would be harder probably, yeah.
Unless you had no keepsakes etc. for the RI4 run.
fallow stream
No upgraded weapon, no extra buffs from contractor... Definitely hard
honest charm
when I did it you practically got guaranteed merciful end and/or deadly reversal
I got this build 3 times before clearing
three times
really, the biggest benefit to later runs isn't buffed aspects and contractor upgrades, it's hammers
mossy zinc
Yeah, you get Divine Protection very easily, too.
bright crescent
thats because some of the gods and the call boons are out of the rotation arent they
plus defiance related boons are out too so athena has a lot less to offer
mossy zinc
Yeah. No call kinda sucks, though.
bright crescent
how do you guys do ri2
i cant get over the lowered damage
with lack of privileged status
mossy zinc
Er. Just build for damage?
Privileged Status is overrated anyway.
Apply Boiling Blood, I guess.
But you should be doing that anyway.
bright crescent
hm
gotta brush up on my backstabbing then
idk i just feel like without the damage i cant really meet the deadline
mossy zinc
I don't know what heat you're playing on.
But not meeting TD2 in Elysium is very common regardless.
bright crescent
im trying for my 32 heat run
gotta get that statue
gotta say i dont really enjoy heat that high
mossy zinc
People don't really tend to use RI2 until they have to somewhere north of 40.
bright crescent
i see
im looking towards options to switch around my heats
because i kinda feel like my hl is too high
and lc too
mossy zinc
RI2 loses you a whole lot of value.
-100 Obols for Deep Pockets. -250 for Thick Skin. And also the damage from Privileged Status or Family Favorite.
So that's at least -350 value. With CF1 it's -450, and with CF2 it's -550.
mossy zinc
I don't know what weapon you're using. And I only did 32+ with Malphon.
Well, 16+ really lol. My highest Stygius clear now is 15.
bright crescent
im thinking either malphon or shield, leaning towards malphon
maybe ill just go ri1 and get early divine strike or something
mossy zinc
Maybe try HL5 LC1 CF1 EM2 CP1 BP2 MM FO2 HS DC2 TD2.
mossy zinc
Well, you can lower that and put some points into JS or CP instead, I suppose.
bright crescent
ive never really explored bp either lol
mossy zinc
But you'll have a harder time with TD2.
bright crescent
should look into that
true true
so far most of my runs have been within td range
but im sure thatll change quick
because those were like
14 heat
mossy zinc
The Owl Pendant, Blood-Filled Vial, and Thunder Signet are all good keepsakes for Malphon in Tartarus.
mossy zinc
Yeah.
bright crescent
well i did have a run with that recently
before i started attempting 32 heat
ill have to stop going for charon by instinct too lol
keep forgetting prices with cf
mossy zinc
Eternal Rose for Heartbreak Strike or Heartbreak Flourish is also good.
bright crescent
hm
mossy zinc
CF2 is 270 for a boon. CF1 is 210.
Going for Charon's Shop and not buying is a free chamber, too. So that's not necessarily bad.
mossy zinc
CF2 random boon and Centaur Hearts are 225 each. CF1 they're 175.
mossy zinc
Yeah, but skipping chambers also saves time and potentially money down the line because you don't need to heal up.
BP2 enemies can be very tough.
bright crescent
and when i said charon shop i meant the chamber before the boss
mossy zinc
Oh lol.
honest kernel
how do I deal with FO, speed buff chariots is it just pray or
mossy zinc
Similar to Flamewheels except you attack them when they recover instead of them exploding.
bright crescent
pick a god and pray
robust zephyr
Find an obstacle you can dash through and back. Same strat as flame wheels except you need to use this to stall their charge
mossy zinc
Yeah, that.
bright crescent
elysium has a lot of furnishings for a reason
honest kernel
thanks god it does have that
mossy zinc
Flamewheels, Chariots, and Asterius you basically all deal with the same way.
bright crescent
yeah except asterius has like... actual pathfinding
ive taken to using the little bit that juts out
on the wall
under the big shade
find it more reliable to let asterius crash into that
cloud kelp
how is aspect of hades compared to gy rn?\
fallow stream
I would say it's a fun aspect that still lacks a bit of punch against bosses, but man is it great for clearing rooms
You can make it work as long as you keep in mind that you have to slowly build for those boss battles
mossy zinc
Hmmm. +150% attack damage is a lot on bosses.
fallow stream
+150% is essentially 2.5x
mossy zinc
Well, it's additive so not exactly.
mossy zinc
It doesn't.
robust zephyr
oh rip
fallow stream
The issue I have with the spear isn't the damage it does..
It's the capability (or lack thereof, precisely) that it has to apply that damage to a boss while not getting hit
mossy zinc
It buffs Dash-Strikes, though.
fallow stream
I have to get used to the attack speed of the spear, which is my problem
Not the spear itself
robust zephyr
Doesnt it have a really big aoe though
fallow stream
The spin does
robust zephyr
you could charge it far away and wait for them to get near just to put the buff on them
yeah
the spin on hades
fallow stream
But go ahead and try to make that work
robust zephyr
It would be hard with em3 theseus but surely hades wouldn't be that bad right
fallow stream
Again, the point is, you can spin or attack, but you generally don't have a window to spin and attack to take advantage of the damage buff
mossy zinc
You also don't need the max spin to apply the debuff.
robust zephyr
yeah u could mini-spin
mossy zinc
And you can charge the spin from a Dash-Strike.
fallow stream
Yes I know
robust zephyr
though artifically creating windows by playing safer works
does make the fight slower however
fallow stream
If you luck out and get both quick spin and massive spin, you're good
mossy zinc
I don't know. Hades on his second life is definitely just chilling there for much of the fight lol.
fallow stream
I dunno what game you're playing but he doesn't chill out for me at all
robust zephyr
i guess u can wait for the 2x skull throw and thrust then charge during the down time
fallow stream
He is up my ass the whole time
robust zephyr
beam attack is the best
alot of time it gives
and u can dodge all the dmg by going into it
when hes in half hp
mossy zinc
He's just standing around like an idiot with no plan after every spin.
Like he's so surprised he whiffed, he doesn't know what to do now.
fallow stream
Nope, not for me.
He finishes his spin and immediately turns to ram his spear in my face
mossy zinc
Yeah, he does. He has a lot of recovery after every spin.
robust zephyr
his attacks are better telegraphed since when he gets locked into the attack string
hes forced to spin
mossy zinc
Triple beams are free backstabs, too.
robust zephyr
after
fallow stream
That's about the only window, and the Omni lasers
But after the spins he gives me zero window. I've charged directly into spear thrusts multiple times trying to dive in for a quick hit after spins
I simply stopped doing it
mossy zinc
Timestamped: https://youtu.be/oS_a8HCiPe4?t=39
robust zephyr
yeah thrust is one of his harder attacks simply because of how fast it happens, but its overall balanced out by all of the freer attacks
mossy zinc
He's just standing for quite some time before he moves again.
robust zephyr
deflect helps alot with the skull spam
fallow stream
Literally acts like Asterius during bullrush
I'm really tired of you telling me that things I watch happen in my game aren't happening
mossy zinc
I could 100% watch your replays, he would have the same recovery.
This might be a good moment for you to check #readme-first again.
Or just cool off, maybe. Not sure what you're getting so heated up about.
bright crescent
oh mother
hell
are you serious
one tick of hp left and he just slaps me for 150 damage
i legit thought i won
bright crescent
in my defense hades is a little son of a titan
mossy zinc
But you didn't defend yourself, did you. 
At least not successfully.
You'll get him next time!
You got there once, you can do it again.
bright crescent
yeah now that ive got an idea of what im doing should be good
i think the part where i really messed up was theseus
rushed through it and lost two dds there
although i did end up with 12 seconds to spare
and that was probably because i passed up patroclus on muscle memory alone
mossy zinc
EM3?
bright crescent
yea
mossy zinc
I really should grind that fight at some point.
But avoiding it has been working so well.
#waitingforpatches
Update V1.0
All of EM Theseus and Asterius' attacks can now be deflected at Nyaanyaa's request.
Deflects now do twice as much damage! Thanks to Nyaanyaa for this great idea!
Cut 10 chambers from Elysium to help with Tight Deadline 2.
bright crescent
cut 10 chambers from asphodel because people complained about lava
now you just skip to lernie
static plover
Only 10 chambers 😛 might need to cut 11 to ensure elysium gets the help it needs for TD2 
bright crescent
got tisi to call me zagreus
mossy zinc
I actually don't know if the empty chambers between biomes count.
bright crescent
this is the run
mossy zinc
I didn't even pay attention to chamber numbers until, like, yesterday lol.
static plover
Ahh ofc, so instead
removed 10 chambers from elysium for TD2 and ensured Patroclus always appears as a room option
mossy zinc
That works.
bright crescent
i check chamber numbers for chaos banes and to see if its end of chamber shop or not
mossy zinc
Good that we're working together in our community to ensure they get the right feedback.
bright crescent
we should add an icon when the game autosaves
and make it patroclus
because he always saves your run
mossy zinc
bright crescent
honestly i have no idea what happened in this theseus boss fight
i ended up only taking 11 damage somehow
despite rushing through as hard as possible
presumably, some insanely god proc dodge and lucky blocking was involved
mossy zinc
Did Meg's assist become a lot faster in the EM fight?
autumn sable
faster in all fights
mossy zinc
Yeah.
tidal flame
Yeah it's def fastet
mossy zinc
With FO2 it feels like you see the area and boom.
mossy zinc
They did. Patch notes weren't too specific, though.
bright crescent
hell no
tidal flame
Lol
autumn sable
classic high heat elysium https://i.imgur.com/g4zYCE1.jpg
mossy zinc
"Olympus Caller", and I only got the call before Hades lol.
tidal flame
thisisfine.gif
mossy zinc
I F10d because that doesn't seem right lol.
tidal flame
Did you sell a call before that
mossy zinc
No.
tidal flame
yeah sure F10 that
mossy zinc
I don't know what you mean, I'm trying out new things. 
mossy zinc
So like, instead of Divine Strike on Malphon, I'm using Divine Strike on Nemesis! It's super new!
mossy zinc
Please, I want to actually do damage.
tidal flame
After further analysis of the screenshot