gvjgvjkgvjkgjk
#h1-story-discussion
runic terrace
coarse stone
Tisiphone: So how does that make you feel?
Zag: Like a murderer?
Tisi: MUUUURDEREEEEEEEEER
runic terrace
meg at the therapists office...... mutters im fine, thanks and sits in utter silence glaring for the hour
coarse stone
Until someone offers to gossip about Zag
runic terrace
hgvghjfhjfhj
hollow charm
Zag, suddenly: wait does it count as patricide if i kill my father knowing he'll just pop out of the pool of styx like a malevolent daisy
runic terrace
A MALEVOLENT DAISY HJFGVHGFCHJFCHJ
coarse stone
Then she'd go into a tirade about how Zag causes her so much trouble
Reminds me of Mushu on the Huns
They're popping out of the snow, like DAISIES!
Zag: Story of my life.
wait, if Guan Yu was an aspect for the spear
runic terrace
therapist: wow it sounds like you have a lot of repressed anger
meg: i am NOT angry and CERTAINLY not repressing ANYTHING and if you say i do again i will KILL YOU
coarse stone
what if Mu Lan would be the sword aspect
runic terrace
:0
hollow charm
Zag: why is everyone mad at me
Therapist: if you're willing to extend our session by a few hours i can help you work through that
coarse stone
and you can hate flowers
runic terrace
hgfcghdcghdcghdcgh
coarse stone
and still pop out of the pool like a daisy
signal palm
no he would insist that it's popping like something else
coarse stone
and I'm pretty sure then everyone would pop into the room and tell Zag why they're mad
hollow charm
A daisy dripping with blood and scowling ferociously
coarse stone
Than: Hid Mort and trying to escape without him
runic terrace
therapist: so how are you doing today
thanatos: i....URGH......(walking around) im idk uhm. i. i dont KNOW okay. bye
hollow charm
Dhshchc
coarse stone
Meg: Making her job even harder and not bringing dinner when he fights her
coarse stone
Therapist: How do you feel today Thanatos?
runic terrace
than keeps LEAVING and the therapist is like is that it? uhm? but he shows up later like AND ANOTHER THING-
coarse stone
Than: Like everyone else is slacking off at their jobs so I'm taking a vacation.
and bringing Zag
runic terrace
he really really wants to do the emotional work and is willing to be open hes just. having a lot of work to do
coarse stone
may as well make everyone mad.
runic terrace
jhfvhjfjhfhj
coarse stone
Or telepathy
runic terrace
damn can u imagine if hadesgame had telepathy like pyre
coarse stone
Imagine Than just telepathically sending messages into Zag's head
like really horrible puns
runic terrace
all conflicts would be solved in two seconds if ppl could mindread ghfcghdghdghdh
omg.....
runic terrace
AAHH TRU
hollow charm
I mean telepathy exists since hades complains in zag's head at the start of some escapes
runic terrace
thats memories i think
hollow charm
Oh? There was one where zag said "get out of my head" after one of them
runic terrace
unlesss all memories are just telepathy 🤔
coarse stone
basically Zag doesn't want to think about his dad's sayings
coarse stone
He's too busy trying to get to the surface
hollow charm
You know all i can think is like 80% of the drama in hades could be avoided if zag and hades just. Talked.
coarse stone
Imagine Thanatos as a therapist come to think of it
runic terrace
hgvhjgjhfvhjfhjfhjfhj what if hades therapist is. skelly
hades: how DARE my son raise a FINGER against me
skelly: hahahaha thats the life tho!!!
coarse stone
Than: So how does this whole conflict make you both feel?
Zag: I hate my dad. I just want to find mom.
merry sorrel
(skelly does make the most sense)
coarse stone
Hades: I hate my son. He is taking Cerberus' attention away from me.
hollow charm
Than: your mother abandoned you tho
Zag: thats not a therapist sounding platitude there
coarse stone
Than: So both of you are idiots. Good to know.
runic terrace
than being told peoples like inner conflicts and emotional problems like cant relate dont know WHY this is bothering u but best of luck
hgfcghdcghdghdgh
coarse stone
Than: I want a raise.
hollow charm
I just liked when in one of their convos in game than outride said "your mom abandoned you" and zag is just "yeah. But. she wouldve taken me if she could!!"
Like zag, baby...
runic terrace
;w; zag bby she didnt even mention u in the note....
signal palm
all their in-fight dialogue is wackadoodle
runic terrace
yyyeah
signal palm
"u weak lmao"
"no u"
coarse stone
It's also possible that Persephone didn't want anyone to know about Zag
Considering how Demeter is reacting in the mortal world
Would you really want to clue her in on having a grandchild that she hasn't met?
runic terrace
i wonder sometimes if perse wrote the note and left before knowing she was pregnant, and then handed zag off downstairs immediately after his birth
coarse stone
also, she apparently went into the underworld according to Demeter IIRC
runic terrace
tru!!
coarse stone
maybe she found out that she was pregnant and took Zag back down
hollow charm
Bizarre stuff
runic terrace
we'll find out later....
signal palm
pregnant Hades confirmed
runic terrace
for now, i think a lot abt the possibility of persephone doing runs from styx down
trying to not die but also not get caught
coarse stone
Or she gave Zag to Charon
runic terrace
ooohhh....
hollow charm
At charon coming by with a baby
coarse stone
Persephone may be many things
runic terrace
hades face like when the dursleys saw baby harry potter on their door jhgffchj
coarse stone
but she's not a monster to her own son
signal palm
you dont know that
coarse stone
She is avoiding Olympus because she's apparently sick of their crap
runic terrace
i dont know anything abt perse of course but i think whatever she did was out of desperation
hollow charm
Charon:hhhhaaaa
Hades: did you steal a baby
Charon: hhrrrooo... /hands over note
runic terrace
hfvhfvhjfhj
coarse stone
That makes her better than 90% of the inhabitants of Olympus
runic terrace
lol yeah
coarse stone
She probably found out that she was pregannt
then snuck down to the Underworld, met Charon, gave him Zag and a note for Hades
and then bailed
runic terrace
i get the feeling from hades' convos now that hes still protecting her from demeter, even though she left him
hollow charm
I think zag was in the underworld when she left tho, as than said "we didn't know she left her son behind"
coarse stone
Yeah, considering that Demeter l iterally went Elsa on the world
runic terrace
that zag and perse have opposite experiences of who hurt them and who offered a hand, you know
and its going to clash if they meet
hollow charm
Which implies zag was around but his parentage wasnt common knowledge?
runic terrace
ahhh
coarse stone
maybe since Zag didn't technically die
Than wouldn't have been aware of his existance at the moment
Maybe Hades made up some crap
especially when he says that Zag is his son
People would think that Hades was just being a reclusive jerk
and hiding his son away from everyone in the underworld
basically VERY few people knew the story
hollow charm
I mean theres a lot of ambiguity in the timeline re: zag
coarse stone
Because if someone (Demeter) knew that Zag was the son of Persephone and Hades
runic terrace
another theory im mulling over: zeus spread the rumor that hades kidnapped persephone so demeter wouldnt suspect she left on her own, hades hates zeus for this but understands why so he just seethes
coarse stone
Well, lets just say that I would not want to be a human mortal
I think Demeter is the reason why Hades kept Zag secret
runic terrace
we have a few convos so far of zeus said blah blah but it wasnt really tru so im like. 👀
yeah....
hollow charm
Same i think hades was trying to hide zag from the olympians in general
coarse stone
Well I think Hades just doesn't like his family in general
hollow charm
In an effort to keep him out of that
coarse stone
but he doesn't give a crap about them helping Zag
hollow charm
Drama
coarse stone
but when DEMETER shows her face
runic terrace
i think persephone realized she went from a frying pan to a fire but zag is about to find out the same, but backwards
coarse stone
"How much does she know? Keep it that way.
"
runic terrace
yeah
coarse stone
There's a whole level of FEAR in Hades' lines
coarse stone
He genuinely fears Demeter for a reason
moreso than the Olympians
Because while the Olympians can be jerkwads to the mortals
they wouldn't actually have hurt Persephone
Demeter on the other hand...
She's literally the psychotic grandmother that no one wanted
runic terrace
hades finding out perse left like "im SO upset but im not evil enough to put you back in your mother's arms"
hollow charm
Idk they're pretty keen on killing zag whenever he spurns their offerings in trial of the gods
runic terrace
we also see demeter immediately call perse by a name she no longer uses, and hates
hollow charm
Unless they're happy to do that bc they know death doesn't stick with zag so "no real harm right?"
runic terrace
and hades hears zag use it and is like. that doesnt fly at all. like for whatever reason despite everything he will still protect persephone so i wonder what their parting was like
hollow charm
I wonder of it was like, a bitter parting but one hades didnt reslly try to prevent
How the hell perse got out anywahs considering hades is adamant theres no escape
runic terrace
my current guess is that he was very good to her until things got stressful and then he wasnt. and she was unwilling to put up with just being mistreated somewhere else and he like. reluctantly understood he ruined it
hollow charm
If perse even managed to escape :ua
runic terrace
yeah...
hollow charm
The underworld is larger than what we experience, and yiu have chaos in the basement too so
runic terrace
the thing about "you think i havent tried" is that i wonder a lot if its even a physical barrier keeping him from leaving, or just...the weight of responsibility
hollow charm
Who knows how many dimensions this bad boy fills
runic terrace
i do wonder what went wrong between them and nyx!
they do say "people ask me to treat them fairly but thats no fun haha" so that is still. worrying.
[skeletor I Am Not Nice png]
runic terrace
zag in their arm, the chaos egg on the staff
hollow charm
I think chaos just operates on an alien logic
While also understanding this other logic mortals/gods run on
And is like "haha my logic is more fun"
atomic forge
I love Chaos and I hope they have a hand in the endgame.
hollow charm
Saaaame
Also nyx did say they were a trickster not a deciever
So they may trick you but dont outright lie
atomic forge
They told us their boons came with a price. Sometimes it's just really steep.
frigid lodge
chaos' design is super cool
coarse stone
Chaos is the pure form of "For the lulz"
They'd make someone a king
but the person would have to wear a funny outfit to get it
signal palm
does anyone else get wires crossed sometimes and think of chaos from sonic when Chaos is mentioned
atomic forge
I never finished SA1, so no, thankfully.
frigid lodge
chaos but it's just a pile of Chao
signal palm
now i'm just imagining zag going down one of the chaos holes and seeing a chao
frigid lodge
than with a dark chao sat on his head 
marble prawn
Does anyone know how long it takes to learn to play the lyre? I've progressed to what I think is the second stage? He starts off really bad and then it progresses to being able to play slightly more melodic tunes
deep spoke
@runic terrace I'm overwhelmingly leaning toward "responsibility is mostly what weighs Hades down"...
A lot of his characterization and dialogue strongly implies that so much of the reason for his actions - like nearly all of them including how he treats Zagreus - is that he's bound by duty and the isolation it imposes.
He thinks that being king means having to be strong enough to take on all the Underworld's problems AND fitting into this rigid hierarchy of roles and power that... also happens to mean the only one he can be on good terms with is his dog, really.
Because everyone else is Subordinate and therefore he's not allowed to have a healthy interpersonal relationship with any of them, or anything
and Zagreus' whole thing is that he doesn't stick to the order or act in a way that befits his station.
How does he feel about it? I dunno for sure, but maybe there's some fear or envy mixed in there - his son gets to act on a lot of desires he's repressed.
Some element of badly distorted fear for Zagreus, I'm sure - that he won't be strong enough otherwise, that he needs to be beaten into a state where he can fend for himself against a world that Hades likely believes has the deck stacked overwhelmingly against their family.
I'm also kind of... very suspicious of Zeus' relationship with Hades, and whose fault it might really be.
Zeus absolutely has his ego problem. It's not something I'd trust.
runic terrace
oooh, good takes
deep spoke
I read on the TV Tropes page (haven't given Zeus a lot of nectar yet) that there's a conversation where Zeus offers to "forgive" Hades for what happened, and Hades flies into a rage and says to never speak of it again.
That may just seem like Hades refusing to accept responsibility on the surface, but to me, that's a very... familiar sense of something
Namely: I get the impression that the context of this is fishy, and maybe it isn't Hades who was at fault for whatever it was...
Cough cough. I've known people who "forgive" others for their own wrongdoing in order to appear magnanimous. And given that despite the alterations, the characters are still... recognizably close to their mythological counterparts? Well, the mythical Zeus is certainly that kind of person.
When he's not just being wrathful.
so instant suspicion
runic terrace
i definitely see that impression..... tbh myself i think its got to be extremely complicated, the sort of situation where both of them did terrible things so they both feel theyre the wronged party
deep spoke
actually, that's a fair point
but it's Zeus' attitude after the fact that raises a bit of a red flag, you know?
Like, he's not offering a mutual apology. It's not a real reconciliation. It's an "accept that YOU were the one at fault and I'll be gracious enough".
Which, again, is the exact kind of egotistical behavior I'd expect of Zeus as a character, and exactly the sort of patronizing I'm sure is Hades' greatest psychological trigger point
since after all, Hades is the god who's been kind of shafted all his existence, given the shortest end of every stick and stationed at the ass-end of the universe in the most miserable domain of all time.
Like a kid who's been bullied and came out of it thinking that you have to be callous and thick-skinned to survive.
No room for emotions - people will take advantage of you, so just lock them away. No room for compassion - it'll never be returned. No room for fairness - since when has the world ever given you fairness? You're alone, and time has only served to drive home that everyone will leave you. So just... feel nothing, because the alternative is pain.
That's what I think Hades is, deep down.
Throws himself into his role, his work, his responsibility, because he's got... nothing else. Nothing but pain and regret and loss and isolation.
I've got to admit, it's not an unfamiliar state of mind.
Not a pleasant one, either.
Worse when there's no one to help you get out of that bottomless pit before it turns you into something terrible - which is exactly the case with Hades, chained to the throne of hell with no one left to engage with him as an equal.
Lucky enough to have escaped that particular personal hell, at least.
merry sorrel
Hades can totally have equals, he just didn't let that happen
Nyx, Chaos, Persephone, the heroes, etc., he's surrounded by countless souls and wealth, he can have companions on equal footing with him any time if he allows it, he was just too prideful to do so
deep spoke
Yeah, that's the thing...
It's not pride per se
It's not really out of arrogance.
It's a very bad and unhealthy response to emotional trauma.
merry sorrel
a traumatized person can definitely still have arrogance
deep spoke
No, I'm saying, in this case the motivation is... subtly different
That pride is a facade.
atomic forge
It's said at least once that Nyx is every bit Hades's equal, she's just so completely unconcerned with ceremonial trappings that everyone lets Hades call himself top honcho.
Same with Thanatos and Charon.
Hades is important, he does a lot of important work, but he absolutely could not do his job without help from all the Chthonic gods.
deep spoke
I never said it was true - he's just psychologically walled in by this sense of isolation.
Even though he has people he could talk to.
It's not something that even most real actual people™️ work through without a lot of active support and/or therapy.
Guy's got abandonment issues. He's estranged from his family, estranged from his wife...
runic terrace
i think a huge theme in this game is realizing the way your actions hurt other people, whatever the reason
deep spoke
Burned by every relationship he's ever tried to keep, and so he thinks that it's futile to even try.
Cut off because why bother? They'll all just leave anyway. Self-fulfilling cycle.
runic terrace
and the main place we see that theme is its something zag NEEDS to go through with saying "i have to get out, but my getting out hurts other people, and both of those things can be true at once", but hades also needs to realize that for whatever reasons he has, and they might even be very good reason, he has caused a great deal of harm
yeah...
merry sorrel
so hades is the closest that we have to a utena game
runic terrace
HONESTLY YES,,,,
deep spoke
That's not arrogance per se, even though it causes him to put on this overwhelming mask of pride and superiority
I know because you can see the mask crack when you beat the guy.
merry sorrel
Hades' arrogance isn't a mask, it's part of his complacency
unlike the son, who tries to get out of his comfort zone
runic terrace
the way it looks at the complexity of hurting and being hurt? endless violent cycles For What Reason Even? utena adjascent absolutely
deep spoke
I mean, same difference. He's too busy wallowing in his misery to do anything positive about it.
runic terrace
yeah...
merry sorrel
ahem ||anthy stabbing utena for trying to save her||
deep spoke
Doesn't mean he's fueled by the, frankly, sheer ego stuffing that drives Zeus.
runic terrace
AHHHHHH.... that was a lot and idk how itd fit in hades universe but it was ABSOLUTELY a stellar scene.
merry sorrel
Hades' arrogance is still arrogance, hence all the belittling he subjected Zag to
deep spoke
yeah, not saying it isn't
merry sorrel
it's like, ||sure anthy was a victim, didn't stop her from doing that cow thing to nanami for the lulz||
deep spoke
just saying that there are a fair few clues that a lot of it really is more like a 'role'.
runic terrace
MHMHM
deep spoke
that doesn't change anything about how bad it is.
merry sorrel
sure Hades got the shrot end of the stick, but he did decide to be abusive as father and employeur
deep spoke
just that the motivations behind it are different
merry sorrel
Hades is a bad boss
deep spoke
well, yeah, no one's disputing it
merry sorrel
Hades chose that role
when someones makes the decision to do so, it is not a facade, it is real
this is what many abusers have to learn
atomic forge
Hades isn't a bad boss out-and-out, it's acknowledged that he's good at his job.
But I totally agree with you that he has a lot of classic "bad boss" behavior.
runic terrace
what i think is REALLY food for thought is the way we see these bad traits replecated in zag while he tries to be better. we see him be stubborn and pushy and violent, and we see him disregard what other people want for his own ends, but hes using these methods because he Wants Things To Be Good, but theres only so much good behavior he knows even exists.
deep spoke
that's a strong point
runic terrace
felis, did you mean that he's a bad boss as in setting a bad tone in the house?
thats how i understood it, just checking
deep spoke
hm? no, I meant re: whether it's "real" or not
the effects are real, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're backed by the same sort of earnest belief in the identity
runic terrace
ahh
merry sorrel
and it's a good point that Hades is good at his job (kind of good employee but bad superior by current workplace laws), because Zag does know that his father has good points
merry sorrel
but the good points and bad points are so tangled sometimes
deep spoke
it's arbitrary, decided by mutual agreement, but it 100% has real actual effects
atomic forge
Yeah, he's an atrocious boss as far as Zagreus was concerned.
merry sorrel
abuse definitely is not like money, there is no mutual agreement in abuse
it's not consensual, that is what makes it abuse
deep spoke
Yes, I'm aware
Bad things are bad.
We know this.
[facepalm] It's almost as if the example isn't meant to be 1:1 exactly the same.
runic terrace
sorry ive lost the thread of the convo here
deep spoke
this has gotten into pedantry, frankly
and insistence that a thing cannot be multiple things at once
runic terrace
we all agree hades is a technically good but emotionally harmful boss, right? is that what were establishing? sorry i got a little lost
runic terrace
ah
deep spoke
then stop acting like not everyone in this conversation knows that abuse is abuse lmao
it's getting incredibly exhausting
sharp axle
I don't understand why every other game (e.g. the new God of War) is allowed to have conflict between characters, but any conflict in this game gets exhaustively discussed repeatedly
runic terrace
the conflict is the meat of the story, so thats why people talk about it, i think
sharp axle
Do people want the game dialogue to be rewritten, to be more friendly? I don't understand what people actually want
deep spoke
@runic terrace yeah, we do generally agree on that. I thought that was a given that did not need to be nitpicked
uh, no?
no one is complaining about the writing
merry sorrel
oh, I love when conflicts are in stories to be discussed
deep spoke
I don't understand any relevance of this
it's not really what anyone is talking about, discussion is not equivalent to saying a thing is bad
or not allowed
runic terrace
no, not at all! i think the portrayal of an abusive home as shown in hades is wonderfully written
yeah
deep spoke
anyway, the actual point I was making was that I don't think Hades really seriously believes he's so much better than anyone else.
Zeus totally does
runic terrace
ahhhh, okay i understand you now
deep spoke
Hades just acts like it, and does the same harm by extension as if it were 'true'
runic terrace
i see
merry sorrel
and that my belief is that both Hades and Zeus are arrogant just express it in different ways
deep spoke
Because frankly, he's trapped in this kind of self-destructive, self-fulfilling sense that trying to be anything else, anything better, is a futile effort
I'm not sure where stating your point needed a mini lecture about abuse being bad, Sol, but okay
runic terrace
as a wise woman (marina and the diamonds) once said, i feel like im the worst so i always act like im the best. lol
deep spoke
we can disagree without acting like the other party doesn't know things that should be known.
actually that about
sums it up, kam
merry sorrel
I'm sorry Felis, but that wasn't what I was trying to do
signal palm
you do that a lot
deep spoke
@signal palm who/what was that to?
signal palm
you
deep spoke
do what?
signal palm
where you think people are sort of being malicious when you're really just having some sort of a misunderstanding
sharp axle
I think my issue is the last time a conversation like this happened, multiple mods had to swoop in and change the topic, because it spiraled out of control
deep spoke
¯_(ツ)_/¯
runic terrace
i think conversations about the conflict in this game definitely have a place on this server, so long as those involved are being respectful. the fact that sometimes it devolves doesnt put the entire topic offlimits, in my opinion. that said its absolutely fine to sit them out, i have definitely sat out LOTS of discussions about the hades-zag relationship that i just couldnt deal with emotionally, yknow?
deep spoke
less 'malicious' and more just kind of vaguely obtuse and exhausting.
signal palm
yeah i couldn't find the right word
runic terrace
hey, this is getting a bit offtopic for the channel, and sounds to me that it may be something best discussed privately?
signal palm
I don't have anything else to say about it. It's just something I noticed
So, about Hades and Zeus arrogance, could you continue
merry sorrel
yes, I believe that Hades and Zeus are both arrogant, and they know that they can just blame on the other party and feel like they are better than the other one
because they are not expressing their arrogance the way the other family member is doing
frigid lodge
where does poseidon fit in, or is he just trying to keep out of it
runic terrace
u read my mind, i was JUST about to ask abt him
even if hes out of The Main conflict , definitely not to be overlooked...
merry sorrel
that's a good point, I haven't thought about Poseidon much and I should
frigid lodge
wet dad just doesn’t wanna deal with all the fighting 😔
merry sorrel
and he tries to be the cool uncle
deep spoke
Seems like he is, but on the other hand? What happened between them involves all of them
could be some more
depths
to him
get it? depths?
frigid lodge
might just be that he’s trying to be cool uncle because he feels guilty about how hades treats zag, because he was part of hades getting sent to the underworld or something
i haven’t read many lines though, just spitballing here mainly
merry sorrel
Zeus was the slacker/bad lover/great dad (to some of his children), Hades was the hardworker/? lover/bad dad, Poseidon was the... hm
deep spoke
choose your skill tree
merry sorrel
in term of being a lover, it really depends, and generally not good in the legends
deep spoke
boss, dad, husband
hades has minmaxed to an unhealthy degree
poseidon probably went for like, all-rounder build
Zeus has lots of points in the lover tree, but like, his build is awful and has no sustain
So it falls off before the "long term relationship" perks.
Poseidon makes a lot of things? Like, horses? That's a thing.
I think he has a mean streak. He's just hiding it.
I mean, no amount of cool surfer dude persona gets around the fact that the sea is known for its fury.
@runic terrace He's... probably one of those gods who's got the calm, laid back exterior, but he's definitely hiding a capacity for just as much violence and wrath as his puffed-up brother.
an undercurrent, if you will
runic terrace
yeah.....
deep spoke
tbh, I'm making an excuse to make ocean puns and belatedly finding that they describe the personality aspect perfectly anyway
frigid lodge
it’d be funny if he had a fishing-related perk after you get the rod
deep spoke
also, I'm actually really interested in the thing you said earlier about Zagreus showing a lot of his father's negative aspects, but trying to be better about it.
@frigid lodge The loot buff should apply to fish!
Or, bake Sunken Treasure in, and replace Sunken Treasure with like... +60% fish chance and rarity
frigid lodge
or he just gives you a fish
merry sorrel
I like Sunken Treasure though- yes please add fish to the Sunken Treasure
deep spoke
Teach a man to fish...
frigid lodge
“don’t want a boon? here, take this fish”
merry sorrel
that works too
deep spoke
@merry sorrel no, I mean, combine sunken treasure and ocean's bounty, make the new ocean's bounty buff fishing
more fishes, more chance of rare fish
ocean's bounty can also easily refer to fish without a change in language 
merry sorrel
I like Poseidon and Dionysus being the immediate material reward gods though
deep spoke
yeah the point is to keep the immediate reward
just combine it with the future loot boost
and THEN make another one that gives you a fish up front and also buffs fishing.
it's brilliant. twofer boons
like Nectar boon - there's a passive future effect and a now o'clock reward.
which makes it a lot more valuable than just... one or the other
runic terrace
tbh i could go on forever about how, to me, the orpheus+euridice subplot highlights zag's worst points....ALL he does is insist that two people who clearly have bad blood between them really do love each other, and repeatedly talks to them about each other despite directly being asked not to. and its not because hes mean or controlling or malicious at all!! but despite his purehearted reasons, what we see him do is be a person whos stubborn, thinks he knows better, and scariest of all, is willing to ignore explicitly set boundaries.
and i think the positive foil to this is the dusa arc- it's probably POSSIBLE to play those two routes backwards but i think that if you orpheuri before dusa, that's where he grows, in realizing that he needs to respect other people's boundaries. i think giving back the ambrosia in particular shows this, in that its something uncomfortable for him, but its what dusa needs, and he realizes that if he pressed on anyway, his intended kindness would become a problem
frigid lodge
i guess it could just reduce the cooldown between fishing rooms, with 5 room reduction at heroic?
runic terrace
oh man i wasnt paying attention are we talking abt fish now hdhgdgh
deep spoke
rofl
atomic forge
I forgot about that, Kam.
merry sorrel
I do want to hear about the zag utenaing thing too though
deep spoke
@runic terrace Which do you think is the better resolution, taking it back or not...?
atomic forge
Most of what Eurydice says at the end of the arc has her reflecting positively on Orpheus, all-but-saying that given the opportunity she'd reunite with him.
deep spoke
Zagreus as a character... he's a personality type I like to refer to as "selfishly considerate"
runic terrace
also i will add about orphridice that they do warm up to each other but only because of his insistance that they really do love each other when the other wasnt there. one day, theyre going to compare notes, and i think a renewed orphridice relationship can survive it, but their friendship with zag might not
ooohhh, thats a good phrase
deep spoke
I haven't gotten remotely that far in both of them though
runic terrace
ahhhh whoops 🤐
atomic forge
When it started and he immediately went against what both characters asked, I was definitely uncomfortable.
deep spoke
It just means I can't really... give my take...
runic terrace
yeah!!!!!
but as for earlier question i do think that taking the ambrosia back is the better choice.....its genuinely something i struggled over for a few days, but i felt i made the right decision
deep spoke
think I'm at 5 nectar for Orpheus but bottlenecked by eurydice
neat lagoon
I mean, for the son of Hades zag really seems way too nice, I feel how nice he is should be a curve that happens as you play
runic terrace
an unwanted gift always feels like it has cooties, you know? dusa would never be able to enjoy it
atomic forge
When she pointed out that she wanted to earn her stripes, that the son of her boss just giving her all the booze she needed to acquire to stock the bar hurt her personally, I gladly took it back.
runic terrace
yeah!!!
i also really really like that zag never thinks less of her for her visible nervousness that turning him down could get dangerous for her
deep spoke
I did not actually get to that point, because I don't have 15 ambrosia 
runic terrace
hes not like "aw ur so silly im a nice guy i would never" , hes like "no no i never ever want to make you feel that way"
awwww
deep spoke
so I didn't know there was dialogue about it actually making her feel bad
runic terrace
so yeah i think the dusa arc is the like.... "growing up" from the orpheus+euridice
deep spoke
I've just seen the "she won't mind"
but not the indication that it'd be... better
I don't think Orpheus and Eurydice would like... cut him off, though
runic terrace
i actually havent seen the other option so i dont know if its 'worse' , and im sure its fine too, just that i personally think giving it back makes a more mature zag?
deep spoke
Probably more of a "Thanks, but never ever do that again" more like
runic terrace
hjfhjfhj i can hear it in orpheus' voice
neat lagoon
I think it would have been better if you talked to Orpheus or eurydice with either of their trinkets equiped they would bring up the subject and kickstart the whole interactions between them and zag
runic terrace
well, they seem to....not want it brought up at all, is the thing 😔
deep spoke
you know I just find it hilarious that Zagreus' notion of interacting with friends is to just throw magic god booze at them
kinda tragic, because he also literally knows no better
runic terrace
yeah!! his gifting is so fascinating
deep spoke
including not really realizing the social implications of such a move
neat lagoon
Exactly, but a "oh that's a nice trinket, where'd you get it? Oh from him? Is.. he doing okay then."
runic terrace
yeah
he not only doesnt realize the implications, when people tell him, he goes i dont care i NEED to gift
deep spoke
I think the main takeaway is that he kinda blithely charges forward through whatever social cues are present
runic terrace
yeah!!
deep spoke
it's just amusing how they managed to weave the damn game mechanic in a way that has narrative implications
runic terrace
hes very very stubborn and insistent to express himself, and wont change the method even for the reason that "it wasnt a good method"
yeah....
its also interesting that its never a personalized gift from him, even when he gets them in return. i mean obviously cuz its a video game but on zags level i think its bc of how set in stone this friendship ritual has become to him
merry sorrel
gift craft mini game
runic terrace
i think eventually when he spends time on surface and starts running out of bottles hes gonna panic
YES YES YES YES
deep spoke
actually thonk
runic terrace
surface zag gonna turn to cookies or friendship bracelets lmao
merry sorrel
as the player I want to give dusa personalized gifts so much
runic terrace
;;;w;;;
deep spoke
tbh same?
see, without the context...
I thought the Dusa thing was just like
oh if you let her keep them then it becomes a friend thing
I didn't know it actually had to do with the lounge quest
runic terrace
again, i dont think theres a consequence to saying keep them, and i think its also in character for them both
merry sorrel
the dusa thing aside, I feel like if zag was hanging out with the cast and only randomly gift them bottles, it's not that bad
atomic forge
Dusa was the first time I kinda felt uncomfortable, because he starts so strong.
At least, once you made it to Ambrosia.
merry sorrel
I wish the player was given the option to help dusa tidy up the place as zag?
runic terrace
yeah.... on his part, i think he was interpreting dusa's nerves as mutual feelings, (and tbh i think dusa HERSELF was interpreting her nerves as a crush instead of , like 'AAHHH IM SCARED I DONT WANT THIS')
merry sorrel
(or just have monologues about trying to keep the place clean so dusa's life gets easier)
the bridge heart pounding effect?
atomic forge
The hearts around her head whenever you approach kinda sends mixed signals.
merry sorrel
love and fear can be mixed, and I'm unfortunately saying this from real life experience
runic terrace
but yeah, zag is a really pushy person sometimes.... but fortunately, hes also a kindhearted person, and realized that he canNOT make dusa uncomfortable
merry sorrel
the "likes bad boys/girls" thing is... sigh
runic terrace
i think also that when you feel a certain amount of affection you can start feeling a sort of societal push for it to be romantic, (esp when ur orientation is not straight, as dusa's seems to be somewhere on ace/aro spectrum?)
merry sorrel
good thing that zag isn't really a bad boy, he's fearsome and kind
runic terrace
yeah!!
deep spoke
I think she admires him but doesn't really know how to interpret the feeling? is the impression I got
merry sorrel
hm, the societal push... sigh
deep spoke
like, not sure if crush or squish
runic terrace
in my personal opinion i think dusa really really liked zag a lot, assumed it must be A Crush, and then started thinking about the realities of what a relationship would look like, and what he would want from her and would try to give to her in return, and realized nooooononono not for me
deep spoke
fair assessment
although in my case I'm not sure it's societal so much as like
mutual unfamiliarity with the whole process of it
frankly Zagreus of all people hasn't had the healthiest model for any relationships like
runic terrace
yeah.....
deep spoke
the whole Meg thing is a little weird, Than is a huge tsundere who can't express his feelings properly EITHER
runic terrace
ok im gettin tired and should go eat supper GOOD TALKS EVERYONE 
deep spoke
and Dusa just does not have a real frame of reference
she's just been the maid and no one else really treats her the way Zag does (i.e., no different from anyone else)
everyone else is the boss or the Boss and that's scary
bold niche
there is a kind of people, who want to love and be loved back, especially the latter, but when it comes to reality, they just can't go with it, they are afraid to actually be involved in a relationship
maybe just serious lack of experience, or maybe the bad one
like, tried once, and the subject appeared to be a wrong one..
and here is again somehow similar to what possibly happened to Hades, in another aspect
don't think Dusa had a nice family back there
deep spoke
Hades probably just let his insecurity get the better of him...
And did something to hurt Persephone, intentionally or not, which drove her away, and ultimately reinforced this sense of "everyone you try to care about will leave you anyway"
(the impression of which I get from his post-defeat dialogues)
Dusa uh...
I think it's implied that she's the Medusa or something
bold niche
well.. I thought, that all that gorgons in Asphodel are like her sisters, and that miniboss.. When you try to summon her there, she says something like "Woah, big mama!"
so.. basically
they are surely not nice, and she is okay with Zag slaying them
signal palm
I think it's implied that she's the Medusa or something
She's maid dusa
bold niche
so, that's like, the first time someone is actually nice to her without wanting something back
deep spoke
I just want more friendly interactions with Dusa though, and more... actual persistent effects of bonds
like, seriously, we need the endgame relationship idle dialogue.
also I STILL want a convo where Zag nicely, but firmly informs Nyx that he overheard the conversation she had with Dusa about not talking to the other residents, and Nope, that is Not Okay
foster mom I love you but no that is not an acceptable attitude to have
signal palm
This is sort of beside what you're saying, but more idle dialogue in general would be good. Pushing past all the story stuff leaves it feeling a little empty when you hear the same 2 or 3 lines cycled
deep spoke
Yeah, I mean, that too
We do just need more idle stuff in general, but it should of course have different results based on your choices.
like, people who went platonic on the relationships get different max level dialogue, ofc
merry sorrel
that is a good idea
deep spoke
Seriously though, I still can't get over that Nyx thing
bold niche
guess, that's what their goal is.. go deeper, not wider.. that's why there are not many persons to romance
deep spoke
Really drives home that everyone has flaws and everyone has redeeming qualities
Even Nyx who's otherwise the most loving and supportive mom has some sticking points
bold niche
Seriously though, I still can't get over that Nyx thing
@deep spoke that's something that needs an explanation at least.. like.. why?
deep spoke
The implication is that she simply has old-fashioned views about what's proper for domestic servants.
bold niche
maybe she is afraid that little gorgon can talk to someone, offend that someone or confuse, make things worse for herself, or what
deep spoke
at least, without further context
we really need a followup
please be next update
because that's the nyx update
bold niche
actually, that would make sense that someone that old can have an old-fashioned views on different things
also, something going on with her and Chaos
so much questions
merry sorrel
Nyx seems to be passive and advocate passivity in general too
she loves her children, but doesn't get that involved either
I wonder if there are situations where Nyx would say that's enough and step in?
deep spoke
hmmmm
That's probably her fatal flaw if anything
...and probably why she hasn't really done much of anything to keep Hades' self-destructive tendencies in check, despite technically being the same rank
bold niche
so, we have one parent, sort of abusive and selfish, trying to make his kid useful for him, not caring about kid's wishes and needs.. doing for him everything that a good parent can, as he think, "for your own good, you ungrateful child of mine"
and another parent, quietly standing aside, caring, but not interfering with another parent's doings
that looks awfully like what can actually happen irl.. and similar to my friend's family problems
though she is not like Zag, doesn't have that stubborness
too shy to even show up here in the chat with her own ideas.. afraid of being rejected..
how deep can a game story be sometimes, behind a simple facade of a roguelite is simply astonishing..
spiral pond
why is careless whisper playing
burnt harbor
Because George Michael is enjoying the lounge :(
spiral pond
Chaos when they see nyx they both go 😮
clever fern
so i just found that Z got friendzoned by Dusa?
haughty carbon
Yes
thorn compass
sad
lunar ibex
BUT HE DIDN'T HAVE A DUSAFRIEND 😦 = 
Im not sure trying to label the sex of a floating gorgon head is worth the time
If SGG doesn't develop the red supportive shades story line, I will be mildly upset
atomic forge
But how would he..with Dusa ?..
Nvm I don't want to think about it
clever fern
in future aphro turn she back to medusa and and and ....
atomic forge
Let's not involve Aphrodite in this, more like something Dionysus would do lmao
lunar ibex
But isn't dionysus zag's heart
or something
I hate how well I'm doing with hazard bomb and 130 hp
oops 165
burnt harbor
But isn't dionysus zag's
heart
lunar ibex
I've never felt mad to win a run until now...
atomic forge
Kam, whenever you have time to address this, just met Eurydice, and she said "Do one thing for me, hon, make sure Orpheus knows I'll be right here." This makes me have deeply conflicted feelings considering the talk last night and about how Zagreus acted during the entire affair.
runic terrace
genuinely my brain is out to lunch right now but feel free to go on
its been a while since superstar so my recollections probably missed nuance as well
runic terrace
nah im just very very very very tired
atomic forge
Sounds like new files should be started.
runic terrace
oh god, terrifying
atomic forge
runic terrace
at what point did euri say this, btw?
deep spoke
What if entire game... but again?
atomic forge
It was well after the end of their quest, after you give Orpheus Good Riddance.
runic terrace
nooooo i cant image starting from the real beginning and not ea beginning aaaaaaaaaaa
ahhh so after he got em to warm up to the idea, huh. hhhff
deep spoke
What was the Super Early beginning
atomic forge
I'm gonna go it.
runic terrace
uhm just till asphodel, no euri no pat no thanny dio chaos hermes etc etc etc
deep spoke
Whew
runic terrace
it was a different time...
atomic forge
Like, Zagreus was right in part that they did miss each other, but to just bulldoze how both of them explicitly asked him to act...
runic terrace
yeah!!!! yeahhh!!!!
atomic forge
I see what you mean how the Dusa arc was him being told "No." and actually accepting it.
runic terrace
mhm!!
deep spoke
Thonk: the people who advanced relationships as they were released probably got the best progression
On one hand the decision was questionable, but on the other hand...
runic terrace
he is a very very empathetic person but he needed 2 learn just bc he can feel for others doesnt mean the solutions are exactly what hed need ykno
deep spoke
Well, the two probably would not have worked through their issues by themselves.
atomic forge
I still feel like the moral was "Zagreus was right to meddle" for Orpheus and Eurydice, though, and I don't like the taste it leaves in my mouth.
runic terrace
yeah, same
clever fern
now what i really want to know is if this game is dying game so what happen when they finally finish the story line?
atomic forge
And the two patching up is an unambiguously good outcome, but the way things are done matters, right?
clever fern
how can we return to hell?
atomic forge
I have no idea how the game is going to end.
runic terrace
i think, for me, the best interpretation is "despite a happy ending, this highlights zag's negative traits", and i just pointedly ignore the It Was Good Way To Do Things implication
same
atomic forge
I was never good at predicting story turns when I was younger, and though I've gotten better I'm still not great at it, but if you wanna tell me you saw the twists in Bastion, Transistor, and Pyre, I might have to call shenanigans.
deep spoke
I don't really see it as implying it was the correct way
runic terrace
ok i really must go for a bit but good convo stay chillin ✌️
clever fern
Base on my drama experiment, i think zag will come back to hell with persephone
deep spoke
More significant to me is the fact that they probably would not have resolved their issues in a healthy way by themselves.
Which is honestly pretty realistic
flat shell
I actually let Dusa keep the bottles, but that's probably my own aroace experince colouring the interaction? Where I've had to clarify to people that the gifts I was giving were unconditional, and being kinda hurt when I found out the reverse was... not true.
deep spoke
Sometimes people fight over the most ridiculous things and their own issues (like Orpheus' uh... general avoidant personality) prevent them from really resolving anything.
clever fern
9 days to the next mayor update
deep spoke
Personally, I read character interactions not as moral prescriptions or validations of one perspective.
flat shell
So for me the answer was an obvious "oh gosh no please" and was pleasantly surprised to see the diologue pretty much say that verbatim. (Sorry for hopping onto this late, computer froze)
clever fern
hopefully some new story line
deep spoke
Only as... interactions between characters. Believable ones, because it's good writing
But then... I've always hated allegory.
So I just read everything SGG especially not as "this is representative of a certain identity" or "this is validating a particular sense of morality", but as a depiction of what a character would do.
The narrative isn't necessarily saying to be like Zagreus when it comes to relationship counseling. Thankfully.
@flat shell mmmm, I get that - I'm neither of those things, but damned if I didn't think I was for years.
flat shell
And gosh, I bet you had to deal with some similarly awkward conversations as the one Dusa had to give, huh?
So for like, that whole thing? It all was handled really well because yeah, the reasoning could go either way! And I could definitely understand wanting to let her stand on her own two... wait. Er, float on her own merits.
deep spoke
Heh, not as much because I was kind of a hikikomori
Still kinda am
But I get the idea
But I mean, even now, I do just like giving gifts sometimes.
flat shell
But in my own experience, if I was trying to give people a gift back, it was because they were doing it with it, in their mind, being linked to getting me interested and it woulda felt like leading them on to keep them (and also I lowkey didn't want that hanging over me as an expectation). And that's where I was probably projecting a little bit onto the situation.
the sheer wish fulfillment of being told "no please you're my friend and I want you to have this regardless because it wasn't done JUST because of that"? through the darn roof
deep spoke
Yeet
I still haven't decided on that one
Because I do kinda want my Zagreus to have that exact kind of friendship with Dusa regardless
flat shell
Yeah, it's a tough call, but at least neither option is backed by like, discomfort. It's all done with both sides being good about it and trying to clear the air.
deep spoke
And this is why I like Supergiant's writing.
supple dagger
I just remembered. How many more days? 8?
burnt harbor
Ye'
supple dagger
woo!
bold niche
Actually I don't see how possibly Orpheus and Eurydice could get their relations back to normal again..
like, first of all, she is over there in Asphodel and he is here in the House
they can't talk, and noone really cares about them
supple dagger
Zag cares
bold niche
so maybe if someone can possibly help them, it can be only Zag
burnt harbor
I mean They don't have to get together
Orpheus getting over here is as satisfactory
supple dagger
Personally, while I don't want them romantically involved (because according to Eurydice, it wasn't that great), it would be kinda cute if they were able to be friendly again or on better grounding.
burnt harbor
S*it Happens people break up the important is move on
supple dagger
Plus Orpheus already using Zag as a muse now.
burnt harbor
Hell even Achilles even if he won't see Patroclus ever again is happy to move on even if not interested in pursuing more romance
bold niche
eternal ordeals can come in many forms.. knowing that the one you trusted made stupid mistake is one of them.. knowing that your short weakness ruined life of someone you loved is another one
burnt harbor
Also There is the fact Zag will have to say a eternal goodbye to Than and Meg if he leaves the UNderworld forever
flat shell
Well, at least in that case, death is inevitable so it's unlikely that one would be permanent.
Especially with Zag's dying habit and resurrection theme
bold niche
unless if he want to stay around at Olympus
flat shell
But the others... Iunno how I want that to shake out, really.
bold niche
for some reason
supple dagger
Zag dies on Mount Olympus and suddenly, Than teleports there.
burnt harbor
Than: Omae wa mou shinderou
flat shell
Plus, Thanatos is on semi-good terms with Ares and Hermes, so he's in contact. so there is that
burnt harbor
Well, he owes certain favour to Ares
flat shell
But obviously Achilies is not over what happened and neither is Patroclus, so they really need to be able to work on that on their own time. They just need the chance to.
burnt harbor
Well, yeah
flat shell
Eurydice and Orpheus? Probably don't NEED to get back together, but correspondence at the least couldn't go amiss.
I may have misunderstood your message then sorry
burnt harbor
Also Unlike Orphy and Eury I think they would get together again in an instant given the chance
flat shell
absolutely
burnt harbor
Like they still are genuinely in love
I REALLY hope this the patch that give us Nyx's face
LIKE CLOCKWORK LMAO
I am a diviner
celest cosmos
Ah is that who it is? I’m not versed enough to figure the silhouettes ever haha
flat shell
OH MY GOSH I'M SO READY
burnt harbor
Nyx I believe
nova turtle
Does it bother anyone else that when you max out Pats gifting he basically reverts to who he was before gifting you?
nova turtle
I think he’s the only npc who does that
heady rain
kinda fits his personality honestly because he's sick of everything
obtuse bay
nyx, charon.. could be a character we haven’t met yet
errant musk
And that posture is 100% NOT Charon.
It might.
But "a ton of new artwork" doesn't define that yet
A new character would usually mean a new mechanic, since adding another person just for the hell of it isn't very productive.
A minor character doesn't get such artwork, after all.
supple dagger
After a while, Hypnos doesn't feel like much outside telling me who/what killed me during a run
SPEAKING of which, I still haven't done the Autograph saga
errant musk
He is, yeah, but he is enabling several conversations and topics.
supple dagger
of dialogue
errant musk
And probably he remained from the original makeup of the game
fiery flower
🤔
lost jungle
maybe its a ne wgod for giving another use to keys ?
since with this being the for nwo last weapon
outside the trader
they have no use
errant musk
A new Olympian is a far stretch
lost jungle
~~and the rerolls during run i guess~
errant musk
But a use for keys is a decent thing.
lost jungle
yeah meant more a new npc
nova turtle
We got a new olympian last patch it’ll be a while if ever
errant musk
I am not sure if there are any other worthy cthonic gods
nova turtle
Keys are used for unlocking weapons mirror and pact of punishment once you do that they have no purpose
nova turtle
I know I’m agreeing it’s limited
errant musk
Since when do they unlock anything in the Pact?
lament flame
I bet on new teaser Nyx, because character silhouette that was shown has a resemblance to Chaos. Tho new character would be nice!
nova turtle
They used to at one point I’m not sure if they still do
errant musk
I unlocked the pact, and I haven't seen the keys used there at any point.
nova turtle
I remember having to unlock parts of the pact when it was first introduced maybe I’m mistaken
nova kite
a character related to Nyx makes sense since the patch is reworking both her mirror and darkness
errant musk
I guess all I can do is wait.
lost jungle
@nova kite were did you read about the rework ?
nova turtle
Their best use is getting nectar from broker
I don’t even like their upgraded form of giving a fated authority because the roll rng usually goes bad for me
lost jungle
i like the rerolls
errant musk
I don't have enough mental faculties allocated to this to pursue the idea any further.
nova turtle
I like the idea of them but it doesn’t function in a way I enjoy
errant musk
Aye
I used my one reroll from the keys to get me a god instead of the heart
Was a decent help.
nova turtle
How many keys do you think new weapon would be?
flat shell
I'd say keeping 12 on hand would be a safe bet.
tame bronze
I have 120 I think I am covered.
flat shell
It probably won't be MORE than that.
atomic forge
That silhouette looks like it has an asiatic hair bun, maybe it's like guan yu rather than a god
nova kite
@lost jungle If you click on where timer for the next update is (on the main screen) it will show you what they plan on doing next, what their roadmap is etc
west tundra
I read that as part of whatever fancy head ornament has the four stars attached to it
nova turtle
I’m probably just gonna stop trading in keys to broker until I unlock the weapon
errant musk
I gather keys for the Fated Authority, so that would have to be put on hold.
nova turtle
With the exception of gemstones + coins I like key upgrade the least
lost jungle
@nova kite thank you <3
deep spoke
@nova turtle Many NPCs have that issue. Dusa for instance.
@errant musk The one Chthonian I want to see somewhere, literally anywhere, is Hecate
My favorite Greek deity
timber obsidian
new god is prob Hera
timber obsidian
the interaction between zeus and her would be kinda cool
flat shell
Hera has been stated by Demeter as not being on Olypmus and not on good terms with any of them, so she probably wouldn't show up.
Her, Hestia, and Demeter don't interact with the other gods because of a falling out (which isn't gone into detail about).
timber obsidian
that is kinda the situation with Artemis, she is lthe odd one out of the olympians
Demeter does not interact with other gods. Bit wierd but ok
I still think it would be cool if demeter changed clothes depending on the irl seasons
flat shell
In traditional myth, yes. Here, not quite.
And she's keeping everything on Eternal Winter lockdown, so maybe she does normally.
timber obsidian
Hades is just a paralell universe of the greek mythology
cerberus is said to be very aggresive in some mythos
and described as pitbull breed
plus, charon is able to speak in the mythos
flat shell
This thing is a fun blendy mix of new interpretation, classic myth, and shoutouts to the orphic mysteries and smaller cults, plus their own special plotline that's being written. So taking the game's word is probably a safer bet for like, theories.
timber obsidian
I really like the mythology in this game and the greek mythology in general
flat shell
Same!
timber obsidian
I still have an impression that of all characters in game I find Meg the most masculine of all
the male gods and characters are all just a bit off on their type
Ares is really serious and poseidon is too overenthouiastic
Hermes is just the ADHD kid off the class and dionysus the chill stoner
Zeus just shouts at you and chaos isnt humanoid
still gotta love my boy Sysiphus
lusty barn
and... anything
deep spoke
@timber obsidian I don't really understand what you mean by "masculine" in this context...
deep spoke
That doesn't make sense to me. Gender stereotypes aren't universal behaviors.
flat shell
Yeah, she's PROFESSIONAL. And her job involves a lot pf physical labour. Not really anything masculine about that.
timber obsidian
Maybe it is just me
lusty barn
its because she suppreses all of her emotions like a man should! ........
deep spoke
Also, suggesting that those other characters don't act "like men" is weird.
timber obsidian
sorry if anyone is offended
junior field
I forgot, wasn't Meg supposed to be a punisher of infidelity?
deep spoke
I'm just mostly confused
Because I don't... get gender ideals like that
I am Basically Chaos with more puns.
junior field
I think she acts against the type
Alecto punishes hatred and she's really hateful, Tisiphone punishes murder and she's obsessed with murder
Meg punishes infidelity, yet she's always calm, cool, and collected
flat shell
Megaera's traditional myth is punishing things from envy and jealousy, yeah, but this iteration of Meg seems like she... doesn't even WANT the job.
spiral saddle
who do you guys think was in the teaser??
west tundra
iirc Meg torments the jealous/crimes of jealousy in mythology? though that's not part of her title
spiral saddle
nice
lusty barn
Yeah, in the teaser teaser it has color, purple and gold, its deffo Nyx
lapis smelt
There was a teaser trailer?
lapis smelt
Last blast?
lusty barn
SG email blast
and they teased "who is that behind Zag?"
thats clearly a non-silhouette version of the teaser they dropped today
purple and gold, just like current in game nyx
timber obsidian
maybe another primordial?
gusty stump
Her silhouette looks amazing , can't wait to see the whole thing.
deep spoke
Re: my joke about a Castlevania whip in Hades
"Die, father! You don't belong in this world!"
"It IS by my hand that you were ever given flesh!"
west tundra
skull casts replaced with wine glasses
west tundra
zagreus is kind of just alucard now that i think of it
lapis smelt
I wonder when good old Charon is going to get a visual update
west tundra
hades's son, sedah
deep spoke
Tbh
lusty barn
I kinda like charon as is
lapis smelt
Also i wonder if Nyx is the next and final legendary keepsake
lusty barn
i know its boring, but when hes the only placeholder left.... itd be amusing and suddenly unique!
I am also curious if we will get more regular keepsakes
since it seems odd for SG to leave blank space like that, design is kinda their thing
vague stratus
ffs lol
Almost always make it to Hades but die just shy of his second phase dying :/
Can't use companions on that fight either or I'd just pop off Battie and bask in 2500 damage
junior field
you can use Shady and Skelly
strong fiber
Can't use companions on that fight either or I'd just pop off Battie and bask in 2500 damage
@vague stratus can you use companions in a boss battle before him?
i wanted to in the hydra
didnt try yet
nova turtle
@strong fiber the only restrictions I know of are battie can’t be used in 1st boss & 4th
Only companions able to be used on 4th boss is skelley and sisyphus
viscid fjord
Any guesses on who the shilloute is gonna be. I feel like it might be hera but because of how the head is shaped it looks like it might be a chinese god instead but I dont know if they will do thay
junior field
people think it's Nyx's redesign
personally, I like the current subdued look of Nyx
tame bronze
Castlevania Season 3 is coming out soon if we do get a whip...
viscid fjord
Nyx looks reallly like charon so a new design would be nice
junior field
it's simple but she's a goddess of the night, not a goddess of a parade
and Charon just needs to slim down a bit and show his bony mug
viscid fjord
A whip for the 6th weapon would be nice
junior field
so that people could see the coin in his mouth, the reason for why he can't speak
pure plaza
The current Nyx and Charon are placeholders, without official art.
storm fern
yeah i wondered why charon and nyx had basically the same sprites
tame bronze
I'm about 99.9% sure it's Nyx redesign.
gilded agate
Would be odd seeing as she becomes a minor side character pretty quickly
I would rather Hades get a redesign. He looks like a edgy Zues with black hair.
deep spoke
@gilded agate the point is making her less of a minor character
open berry
nyx is a high probability purely for the fact this is the darkness update. and who gives zag the mirror? nyx. So she's totally a valid guess
junior field
@gilded agate well, they are brothers
gilded agate
What if the character art teased is Persephone
junior field
can't be
black and gold aren't her colors
the headpiece looks comically oversized for Perse as well
gilded agate
Yeah but all the other gods have very distinct art. Hades is extremely boring looking. Nothing about him says Lord of the underworld
gilded agate
Not in game. His 3d art doesn't have rings
junior field
and he has a very particular beard, which is plastered all over his domain
pure plaza
Its hard to fight with rings and jewelry all over your body
junior field
cause it's his domain
deep spoke
Rofl
Yeah
The symbol of the entire underworld is his facial hair.
How is that not distinctive?
open berry
bc it doesn't meet someone's arbitrary definition of distinctive. I mean his design could get altered like hypnos did but overall sgg has little reason to change hades much
junior field
they changed Hypnos' clothes tho, not his model
open berry
His model is the placeholder shade that's shared by multiple other characters lol
junior field
oh, are you talking about the 3D model, not the artwork?
open berry
I would hope at least hypnos gets his own model by full release since he's not a shade like achilles and such
junior field
I meant model as in the artwork
open berry
By design I meant artwork specifically
I was not referring to 3d model until you said anything
I am saying at best sgg could alter hades artwork as they did hypnos over the updates but he's not ever going to get any drastic changes to his appearance
junior field
is this not the old artwork you were talking about?
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/520429929721233464/523160506614415360/unknown.png
stiff geyser
hard quarry
yup brand new weapon
plus new aspects
apparently
can't say for sure until the devs actually announce/release it all lol
flat shell
The roadmap and in game announcement confirm the last full weapon is coming this patch.
flat shell
Yeah, sorry, was backing up your first statement to Flarice!
hard quarry
but next update i have no idea
thorn compass
Hades: It's good to see you out of that ridiculous robe after all this time.
Nyx: A mother should show her true self to her family eventually.
Hades: <grumble>.
burnt harbor
Ey just realized something
Does hypnos says something if you accidentally (or not) kill yourself with the Daedalus rocket launcher upgrade?
The one that does to you scratch damage
open berry
https://twitter.com/somnolentgod/status/1233797519282294789 this one I'm assuming
deep spoke
LOL
thorn compass
gtk
burnt harbor
Oh, Thank you
drifting citrus
y’all think they would introduce another surprise 4th aspect alongside the new weapon?
nova turtle
I think that'd be possible I mean they did sneak in a 4th aspect with the last update
also I'm pretty sure next update will introduce nyx's art because the roadmap talks about tweaking the mirror of night
thorn compass
either balancing issues or adding more... maybe both
nova turtle
I'm not exactly sure what they're intending to do but I remember hearing that they want mirror of night to mean something for those who have a lot of darkness
pulsar cypress
Has anyone figured out who the new god is?
modern hearth
There is no new God, just new artwork.
pulsar cypress
I feel like it might finally be Persephone
modern hearth
There's a new weapon.
pulsar cypress
Oh damn 😦
modern hearth
The artwork is likely for Nyx since this update is already supposed to be reworking Darkness as a currency.
pulsar cypress
modern hearth
That's the speculation, anyway. People keep getting hung up on the wings present in the silhouette of the thing but I think they're forgetting the Orphic myth involving Nyx being a giant bird lol
modern hearth
Well, they said "plenty of new artwork", so it's possible it might be in this update.
bold niche
If not Nyx, then who it might be? New olympian? Doesn't look like Apollo or Hephaestos..
modern hearth
It's not a new Olympian because I feel like that would be a main focus of the update.
I'm 100% on the Nyx boat. She directly ties into Darkness and the mirror and since they've already used Orphic myth as inspiration before (iirc, Zag himself is Orphic) then I think it's not only possible but even likely that the wings are referencing her giant bird form.
nova turtle
It's definitely not a new olympian because demeter just came out
bold niche
I can swear I saw this kind of shoulderpads somewhere, but not sure where
vague stratus
Soo.... with Hera's bow, does stuff like power shot, or attack damage AND Cast stuff apply to the same "shot" ?"
Thinking of getting Perfect Shot for +100% on, it's either t hat or Chain Shot but tbh the cast happens on the first hit so meh
Also doesn't triple cast if I get Triple Shot, I'd wager.
sweet oar
The cast and arrow are treated separately, just like usual. So cast buffs will increase cast damage and attack buffs will increase arrow damage
vague stratus
Out of those three Perfect Shot is probably winning, since it'll pair with Crit from Deadly Strikes and the +100% on Hunter Strike
sweet oar
So with power shot, that will only affect the attack, as I think that's how it's worded
vague stratus
So my dash attack is 3x damage, with a 15% chance to crit. Before cast stuff is applied.
Honestly I might reroll without Hera and go for the power shot + dash shot combo since that's a total of 25% crit on 3x damage already.
Don't need Hera when you've got thicc crits
sweet oar
Whichever works for you! Personally, I run the hera bow with artemis cast. I try to get the Flurry Shot (rapid shot but no power shot) and piercing volley from the hammers. This allows me to keep highest mobility and pierce through the front of Theseus and other shield weapon enemies for easy cast damage.
vague stratus
Also I've only got Hera to tier 2, I've got the crit up to the +10%
sweet oar
But the nice thing about Hades is all weapons are pretty valid
vague stratus
Piercing Volley ignores armour but not shields last round
vague stratus
I usually pair it with the Athena Deflect though since it covers a wide area quickly.
sweet oar
Wait not volley, my bad
I was thinking the gun weapon. That one can pierce shields with an attack iirc
For the bow I look for Flurry shot and honestly, whatever else that can work. Twin Shot, Sniper Shot, etc.
Yeah, it's the Adamant Rail that has Piercing Fire. I use Artemis on that too with Hestia so I mixed 'em up in my head a bit
vague stratus
The only place I really run into trouble these days is the temple and the last quarter or so of Hade's second phase.
I stopped cranking out high crit, one shot sniper builds because of the close quarters, stationary-or-be-poisoned style of the temple
sweet oar
practice makes perfect! Try different builds and weapon aspects and you'll find something that clicks with your playstyle. Personally, I always have a build in mind that hopefully utilizes a legendary boon and/or a duo boon, and work toward that. Doing something like that may work well for you too, but do whatever is comfortable
Yeah, the Hestia Aspect's lack of AoE is troubling in those rooms. I try to supplement it with an AoE cast or buffing my special damage too
vague stratus
Yeah, I like the idea of throwing festive fog and getting scintillating feast + lightning rod or something
sweet oar
Yup! That sounds like it could be effective
vague stratus
But to get Lightning Rod I'd need a zeus perk, and I don't like any of his actual boons the replace attacks
If I'm gonna use a call it'll definitely be one that grants impervious
wait wtf
So I have power shot, I dash and power shot it does 80
So it crits for.. 300..
I mean I won't complain but that sure is hella more than 160
sweet oar
Hmm, so I imagine for that build:
Attack - Artemis
Special - ???
Cast - Dionysus
Call - ???
If you don't like Zeus on the call, you can put him on your special. Not ideal for the Rail, but workable, especially if you're using Festive Fog and the basic Hestia Attack for your highest DPS
You could have higher crit damage with Artemis' Clean Kill boon, Heart Rend, Hide Breaker, etc.
vague stratus
One thing that's really cool on the bow is you can crank out a stupid amount of lightning with your special and Zeus's flourish
sweet oar
And if base is 80 then crit should be 240, because it's +200%. So that's 3x (as +100% is times two)
vague stratus
But honestly that's more of a niche Chiron Aspect sort of thing
I literally just started the run, my only boons are the daedalus perfect shot, and now Zeus's Thunder Flourish
Just crit on my dash attack (power shot) for 300 lool
sweet oar
Interesting. Not sure where that extra is coming from. Maybe my math is wrong or maybe power shot affects dash attack, but that sounds like a bug if so
Well, I'm gonna go eat. Good luck on your run!
vague sparrow
zeus chiron only appears to proc the lightning strike once per special
vague stratus
Welp, that's a RIP.
Not sure if Charged Special works with Power Shot/Perfect Shot T-T
TBH I'd rather just use it to keep proccing Jolted so probably going with Piercing Volley
Only other option is a whopping 4 more shots.
tight flare
Unless explicitly specified, a charged attack / special doesn't have an innate power shot
So no power shot for charged volley.
graceful wharf
what is people speculation on the new character?
coarse stone
Nyx seems likely
pure plaza
Nyx remodel since her in game is a placeholder
graceful wharf
i see thanks guys, though i'm way more excited for the new weapon
pure plaza
No problem! There's also been A LOT of discussion on what the new weapon can be!
latent edge
new weapon hype !!
sweet oar
Part of me wants just simple glove type weapons so I can go all D&D monk style on people, but I know I'd be happy with whatever Supergiant has decided
pure plaza
SG may add more weapons after the 1.0 release! Especially since they said that the weapons are akin to classes in other games
lunar ibex
They really are akin to other classes. Do you have a link to where you read this?
sweet oar
It was in the noclip doc where they compared it to Slay the Spire
lunar ibex
I was really hoping they would and that the blank space was just a little promise for the open beta folks
ahhh slay the spire, another one of my favorite games
sweet oar
Latest episode. It seemed to be in passing though, so I wouldn't take it as something like the heart of their ideology
pure plaza
True! It may be a bit far to say that the weapon system is the main ideology, but there is always a chance they may add more! SG really listens to the community!
spring remnant
you ever notice how nyx's character portrait is just Charon's but re-colored? The lore implications alone, Nyx is secretly posing as Charon to help you escape by selling you things... although I don't know why she would need to SELL them to you
obviously it's placeholder art but THE LORE
pure plaza
She has to sell them to you because if she just gave them away, Hades would be suspicious and intervene
flat shell
All of the placeholder art looked like that but recoloured
native marlin
Artemis, Patroclus & Sisyphus all had placeholders, don't overthink it
Orpheus too
marsh grove
lime radish
hey my SGG fam, thirsty question: how many runs do you have to do after "forging a bond" with someone before they show up in your bedroom?