Ehhh
#h1-builds-and-combat
torpid abyss
unborn pebble
Oh, I got Athena Dash too, now.
unborn pebble
More deflects for mah crit generation.
solid hazel
since I live in the land of the "free", we are all unable to leave our houses in fear of covid
so that's my life haha
cunning urchin
i was saying dodge was additive and broken back in blood pact, but ledger told me it wans't, so I just believed him
I told ledgerdamayn it wasn't additive lol.
primal hazel
Lol got hades to first invincibility before being able to lodge all casts
torpid abyss
It's unusual to see a roguelike not tie the out of run progress to unlocking new upgrades and such
primal hazel
Eh what
torpid abyss
You see, this is a big issue many roguelikes have: Bloated pools
solid hazel
I'm about to dive headfirst into a semantical arguement I really don't care about haha...but here goes
primal hazel
Hades does
torpid abyss
When you unlock a new item toget during a run, that means every other item is less likely lo appear
primal hazel
Yep
torpid abyss
Also, i mean stuff like boons
primal hazel
Roguelikes is true "lose everything"
Yeah but hades doesn't differ from rohuelites there
torpid abyss
Hades doesn't let you just buy new boons to have the mappear in the game
primal hazel
It has permanent progress and run progress
solid hazel
well like I said..I realyl don't care about this semantics so I'm gonna take a shower and let you guys hash this out
primal hazel
Run progress helps permanent progress
torpid abyss
Hades instead lets you upgrade stuff tied to Zagreus and the weapon you have through the whole run
primal hazel
P run of the mill
torpid abyss
They are both permanent progress yes
primal hazel
The weapon is only a basis which to build upon
torpid abyss
That's... Out of the question
Yes i know how demeter works, but point is
Hades doesn't let you purchase new boons to have them appear
Literally that's the one thing i point to for the sake of discussion
waxen comet
Roguelites are any kind of progression, not just item pool increases.
primal hazel
Yes but it lets you purchase the aspects and mirror stuff
Roguelites are any kind of progression, not just item pool increases.
@waxen comet this
torpid abyss
Okay i'll say it simpler
primal hazel
...
torpid abyss
Luck based progress
waxen comet
I've said it as simply as I possibly could
torpid abyss
In the average roguelike, you purchase upgrades that may or may not appear next run
primal hazel
Roguelite
waxen comet
Roguelite
primal hazel
Also you don't necessarily
waxen comet
Please look up the difference
primal hazel
I think you're choosing the wrong games as comparison
torpid abyss
Okay i see you both miss the point here
primal hazel
A better comparison would be Rogue Legacy
Which is like hades
In that regard
You choose your stuff pre run
I think you're point is just wrong maybe
primal hazel
You're comparing it to roguelikes
But it's a roguelite
Rogue legacy would be a better game to compare it to
Isaac and dead cells are different beasts f.e.
Look either you're wrong or I'm right
Jk
torpid abyss
Okay, just look at it like this
In Hades, each god has a set pool of boons
You cannot change it
primal hazel
In rogue legacy...
waxen comet
A roguelike has nothing to unlock, everything is already there. The only progression is within each attempt at the game.
A roguelite has any form of progression outside of individual runs, whether that's broadening your item pool, character growth, or starting equipment unlocks, to name the most common.
primal hazel
There's a set amount of bosses
You choose your knight pre run and spend currency on meta upgrades
torpid abyss
THAT'S my argument, it's interesting Hades took a step in a different direction to other games of the genre, and have you not change them or anything, and only have better stuff consistently
waxen comet
That's more like it, Ray
primal hazel
It's good but hasn't explored new territory regarding that
torpid abyss
I know it hasn't
waxen comet
Hades definitely goes easy on the unlock RNG, mostly
torpid abyss
But at the same time
waxen comet
The Binding of Isaac, oh boy
torpid abyss
Hades did something somewhat new by having the upgrades have "tiers"
primal hazel
THAT'S my argument, it's interesting Hades took a step in a different direction to other games of the genre, and have you not change them or anything, and only have better stuff consistently
@torpid abyss well that sounds like you don't
It didn't tho
Jesus
waxen comet
You know there's something wrong when there's a dedicated hold-to-reset button.
unborn pebble
Ahahaha
primal hazel
Oh no that's game design
primal hazel
torpid abyss
That's a problem inherent to roguelikes
unborn pebble
2-phase Hades took 18 seconds.
split orbit
I've always loved neon abyss and gungeon as my go to roguelikes/lites
unborn pebble
6 of which was Phase Invul.
torpid abyss
It's one of those things you can't help
waxen comet
Nice, Edi.
primal hazel
This can be good or bad based on the player
@torpid abyss nope rng is on nature independent from players
primal hazel
2-phase Hades took 18 seconds.
@unborn pebble awesome man
torpid abyss
I mean the opinion of the player on RNG
primal hazel
Phrase better then
primal hazel
Players can see this as either good or bad
waxen comet
It's a matter of perspective whether strong RNG is a good or bad thing?
primal hazel
This one's free
unborn pebble
RNG is valued differently depending on the player. Can be good, can be bad.
primal hazel
No dictionary required
torpid abyss
This isn't anything new
unborn pebble
Here's the thing, knowing how to manipulate the RNG? That's where you hit maximum gravy.
waxen comet
I know I bounced off of TBoI and Risk of Rain 2 because of the item RNG.
primal hazel
Here's the thing, knowing how to manipulate the RNG? That's where you hit maximum gravy.
@unborn pebble I love when a game gives you the tooks
torpid abyss
Yeah RoR2 has a quite large number of issues
waxen comet
I just didn't have fun starting out, ended up refunding it
primal hazel
Boi was my entry into roguelikes but jesus
D6 was like the only way
torpid abyss
The gameplay loop is cool and all, but the issue i have is its final boss
unborn pebble
Yeah, being able to Force Boons and Give Up to keep a Seed?
torpid abyss
Which completely makes playing the game pointless
torpid abyss
The old what?
unborn pebble
RoR, the first one.
torpid abyss
You dropped the '
graceful verge
Just finished Styx
primal hazel
Blake it on my auto correct
unborn pebble
Nice! What's the build?
primal hazel
Case and point
torpid abyss
Tsk tsk
Well, so where were we...
Ah yeah
Rng and all
I suppose RNG in a game becomes acceptable when the player still determines whether or not they win
waxen comet
I just didn't enjoy the combat loop or the itemisation of ROR2. Felt like I was at the mercy of RNG on whether I had the damage output and bulk to out-trade whatever boss.
torpid abyss
It becomes unacceptable when the game expects you to have good RNG
Like the RoR2 boss fight
You know what it does? Suck all your items and use them against you
waxen comet
Oh dear.
unborn pebble
Wow, I could have gone even faster if I had remembered to use Meg xD
torpid abyss
Yeah
primal hazel
Liked the combat in ROR2 but 90% of the game being based on uncontrollable rng sucks dodoo butt cheeks
waxen comet
And here I thought Hush and Mega Greed sucked.
torpid abyss
And besides, he's the average "Ok i took enough damage let me summon minions and go invulnerable"
primal hazel
And here I thought Hush and Mega Greed sucked.
@waxen comet mood
F the damage scaling
split orbit
Oh yeah I forgot about risk of rain... if you pick up artifacts it basically takes put almost all rng
primal hazel
Original ror was so fun
torpid abyss
The game's final boss is outright badly designed
primal hazel
What did they drop along the way lol
waxen comet
I only really have experience with early ROR2. It sucked. I refunded
primal hazel
Also it sucks that on PS4 I have to wait like half a year for an update
torpid abyss
It's a lesser known thing of game design that interesting =/= fun
waxen comet
Dead Cells and Hades are how you get an interesting early game.
split orbit
Also it sucks that on PS4 I have to wait like half a year for an update
@primal hazel fair but we got it now lol
torpid abyss
Dead Cells isn't quite my jam really
The game later on boils down to "don't get hit" with the malaise mechanic
waxen comet
It's got issues. Multiplicative scaling oh god
torpid abyss
I just played the first few BC and got done with it
waxen comet
And yeah, Malaise and stem cells
torpid abyss
That's a pretty odd thing games feel like doing
waxen comet
But the core game is at least enjoyable
primal hazel
@primal hazel fair but we got it now lol
@split orbit 2 late, lost me already xD
torpid abyss
They give you an HP bar just to enforce you to not take damage
I never understood that
Good game design rewards and doesn't enforce
waxen comet
It's a bit difficult to do so sometimes
waxen comet
Not sure how exactly you'd reward higher difficulties in Dead Cells beyond the existing ability for better drops
torpid abyss
There is always a detail that, if changed, makes or breaks the whole thing
torpid abyss
Well, personally... I like to have a challenge as its own reward
waxen comet
I've also settled with the idea that I'm not going to be able to take on every difficulty and that's okay
split orbit
So arthurian revenge builds are now my favortie
cunning urchin
I feel like this conversation has gone very off-topic at this point lol.
torpid abyss
However, game designers acknowledge that a player seeing the game compliment them is a great dopamine source
Oh well we should go back to Hades then
Hell mode felt kind of pointless to me
Like, it's fine to play on "hard" mode
primal hazel
It's just a player driven thing ye
torpid abyss
But it just forced you to do something you could already do
unborn pebble
Second best part of Hades is the writing, chiefly the humour..
primal hazel
Best
torpid abyss
Just replacing "can" with "must" isn't really a fun thing
unborn pebble
I only say second because I really like the gameplay, and even then it's freaking close..
torpid abyss
I feel the best part of Hades is yes, gameplay
And the worst is NOT GETTING AN ATTACK BOON BY ELYSIUM WHY
waxen comet
Probably because you aren't filling other core slots? I know the game always gives you at least one boon for an empty core slot
torpid abyss
Yep
Or when the attack boons suck compared to other stuff
How am i supposed to turn down an epic artemis cast?
waxen comet
I usually turn down casts if I don't need them and can just use default for Boiling/Stygian Blood
primal hazel
^
waxen comet
Keeps my Pom pool small.
split orbit
On the darkness grinding-.-
primal hazel
Always aiming for that rarity increase from Euridice :3
waxen comet
Or lv10 Hangover.
primal hazel
Didn't know you could level hangover
waxen comet
Just drunken strike/flourish
First problem with going for a Hangover setup is that you're gonna be intentionally light on Boons
primal hazel
I was jking
waxen comet
So your Pom has no choice but to offer you a level in Hangover
I've noticed it always tries to favour boons below lv3 if any
primal hazel
Hmm have to look out for that
waxen comet
This is normally fine for most boons, due to diminishing returns
But given that Hangover has such a low value per stack and tick to begin with, it practically scales linearly.
And if you're using a Hangover setup you either want Ares' duo for more ticks and/or Aphrodite's for more stacks
Plus, y'know, High Privilege skyrocketing Hangover damage already.
waxen comet
No clue! I have a habit of rambling.
primal hazel
Same
proven osprey
damn you're not a nice rock
primal hazel
I'm an honest rock
proven osprey
why am I even talking to a rock
primal hazel
Because let's face it
My company is the only thing keeping you sane
No clue! I have a habit of rambling.
@waxen comet maybe save it in a note
Next time someone asks about hangover (builds) you just post em that
proven osprey
My company is the only thing keeping you sane
@primal hazel that may be very true
primal hazel
may
proven osprey
yes
primal hazel
I'll take it
proven osprey
because talking to a rock could also mean that I have no more sanity to keep
calm bluff
Getting fo the point where I don't feel like sharing my win screen lmao
primal hazel
Why
calm bluff
Doing low level heat and just have a long streak.
calm bluff
None of my weapons have high heat
primal hazel
You got 126 clears to do xD
calm bluff
I'm 3 away from completing my duo boon prophecy
primal hazel
To get all bounties
calm bluff
Also keeps rolling shield for my dark thirst and it annoys me
Started picking other weapons when thirst lands on shield lol
EM on hydra I can't wrap my head around on yet
primal hazel
Huh really?
Tbf the arena is annoying
You just gotta be real cautious where you're dashing
calm bluff
I am abyssmal at dodging in Asphodel
primal hazel
Yeah the lava still gets me too xDD
Well from one trashlord to another: you'll get used to it
Compensate it by being better in the other areas xD
calm bluff
But that's just my playstyle. I love spamming dash attack
primal hazel
I really need to actively force myself to watch actively for lava
calm bluff
Yeah I'm tempted to put traps on pact just so I avoid them
mild bone
I hate it when I miss with a cast and the the bloodstone lands distantly in the lava haha
primal hazel
Yeah I'm tempted to put traps on pact just so I avoid them
@calm bluff that's why I've been avoiding that one
calm bluff
Chaos definitely makes me watch for traps by giving me like 400% more damage from them
primal hazel
But only for a set amount of rooms
Also hades urns do like 150 damage with the pact enabled
Have fun with that
calm bluff
I usually don't worry about hades urns but I haven't done EM4
primal hazel
Even without EM4 a stray urn can take away one dd almost by itself
calm bluff
I suppose that'd matter at higher heat. I usually have all 3 DD at the end of fhe run and suicide myself into Hades to win
primal hazel
Gotta work on that
calm bluff
Last run I had heoric zeus attack and aphrodite dash that carried me
I probably will after I get done with all my prophecies and stuff.
Can't wait for the run I have to do stubborn defiance on
calm bluff
Also have to say, I have never felt safer with athena attack and dash lol
mild bone
Does dash-attack on the rail benefit from Arty's dash-attack damage increase? Or is it worthless because on the rail the benefit of dash attack is just to fire an extra bullet? I had a dash-attack build the other day and couldn't see a benefit on the damage numbers.
primal hazel
Dash attacks benefit from hunter dash
mild bone
Okay thanks, I just couldn't tell.
primal hazel
It's a viable choice on hestia
Less so on eris
mild bone
Mmm yes I was on Eris
restive patio
I found that wether or not I win with the Rail is entirely dependent on the number of my dashes
More Dashes = higher chance for a win
Impeccable formula
primal hazel
More dashes are always better
restive patio
I'll trademark that one
calm bluff
Tempted to go Artemis special on Eris
mild bone
Haha yes patent that
primal hazel
Cross the rail part out then you're golden
Tempted to go Artemis special on Eris
@calm bluff aphrodite is better
restive patio
Can confirm
primal hazel
With zeus attack and poseidon dash
calm bluff
I mean not surprised
mild bone
I like hyper-sprint too though
I got hyper sprint (+100% move speed after a dash) plus epic rush delivery (bonus damage based on any bonus movement speed) for the first time today with Eris and ruthless dash
calm bluff
Nice
mild bone
Huzzah! It was a blast.
calm bluff
Makes me wanna do that on fists lol
mild bone
Oooooo
calm bluff
The runs where you have like 5 curses on the boss are great
mild bone
Must feel awful - "Why do I feel weak, and a sense of doom too, and my hair is standing on end, and am cold..."
primal hazel
Imagine going pool farming in styx for DD restores
Multiple show up
None has a kiss of styx
calm bluff
Duo boon wise you'll get no synergy but I still love putting all the curses on
solid cairn
they really did dilute the well item pool with a bunch of useless stuff in blood price
like the fishing thing and the random box
calm bluff
I want to get the poseidon fishing boon at least once
solid cairn
at least they added a special counterpart to the cyclops jerky
calm bluff
I need to remember to use all my bouldy charges. I always have 1-2 left at the end
primal hazel
Time to sweat hades with 100 life and no DD's on fists
at least they added a special counterpart to the cyclops jerky
@solid cairn I wish patrocleus also had that
solid cairn
yeah
solid cairn
they really overdid the damage increase on that
calm bluff
Or armor w/e
calm bluff
Yeah I don't understand why it's 900%
primal hazel
they really overdid the damage increase on that
@solid cairn nah I'm fine with that
calm bluff
I guess it's because fists have lower base damage?
solid cairn
even still
primal hazel
It's still insane
solid cairn
rail barely gets any
solid cairn
it also affects dash upper but that already does high damage so
primal hazel
Or am I confusing a hammer lol
calm bluff
Rail is fine it does insane amounts of damage without armor hammers
waxen comet
You're confusing hammers
Malphon's dash-strike is fairly weak, a 10x boost makes it decent at punching a hole in armour
dry ember
Breaching Cross is the best overall fists hammer.
waxen comet
Exagryph's anti-armour perk gives its Attack +50% damage to armour and piercing.
That said, screw armour, especially with how bad of a time it gives you with short weapons like Malphon
opal lodge
breaching cross is insane
primal hazel
Ooof did it
grim dune
Could someone give me some pointers with Zeus shield? I feel like I'm getting pretty good at figuring out what works with stuff but I just can't wrap my head around how to make it work.
waxen comet
And really, FoxHope? I would've thought it's Repeating Fists(?). Am I missing something?
primal hazel
Could someone give me some pointers with Zeus shield? I feel like I'm getting pretty good at figuring out what works with stuff but I just can't wrap my head around how to make it work.
@grim dune either go ME and kite your shield
Of go zeus flourish with explosive catch, tidal dash/tempest strike and spam special/kite behind your shield
Also sea storm
waxen comet
Zeus shield kinda wants you to big-brain
You're either spacing so your shield stops where you want it to, or you're bashing enemies into the shield so it can do extra damage. It's pretty solid with additive damage (Drunken/Lightning Flourish, Curse of Agony)
primal hazel
Dio is worse than ME or thunder tho on zeus
waxen comet
Hits often enough for it to be (probably) viable, at least on an unupgraded Zeus aspect
But Lightning Flourish is very, very good on it
waxen comet
Yeah
dry ember
And really, FoxHope? I would've thought it's Repeating Fists(?). Am I missing something?
Yeah. Aside from the silly armor damage (+900%) btw, it makes fists safe because the faster you get armor off, the better you can stunlock the enemy.
And you do dash strike a lot to cancel combo "end lag" with fists
waxen comet
That makes sense. Especially if you're playing with Benefits Package
What's ME, by the way?
dry ember
Merciful End
waxen comet
Ah
dry ember
Athena and Ares duo
dry ember
Yeah people (me) do that a lot here
dry ember
Some duos aren't that exciting tbh
waxen comet
Merciful End is neat at least, +40 Doom and faster reapplication
grim dune
thanks for the ideas
waxen comet
I just did a Zeus Aegis run, kinda derailed into a Revenge build lol
primal hazel
Yeah, Merciful End could be a solid option
@waxen comet never seen someone describe me so tame
primal hazel
No bad words :3
waxen comet
Merciful End "could" be good because of boon RNG, and having narrow requirements for a Duo as it is.
primal hazel
The key to ME is also having athena dash and Impending doom
waxen comet
Here's the thing, Divine Dash isn't a requisite for Merciful End
waxen comet
Fair
dry ember
Here's the thing, Divine Dash isn't a requisite for Merciful End
Correct. Before 1.0, it used to be.
At 1.0 they nerfed it.
primal hazel
Was too op lol
waxen comet
Ooof, I could only imagine.
waxen comet
Guessing the same happened with Artemis/Athena?
primal hazel
grim dune
I feel like too many of athena's boons / duos have had the dash nerfed off of the pre-reqss
dry ember
Yeah. Divine Dash by itself is a solid boon
grim dune
just feels bad when the only way to activate a duo is strike or floruish
primal hazel
Deservedly so
dry ember
It also enables many powerful duos
grim dune
seems very limiting
waxen comet
That's because it's already the best single boon in terms of utility.
dry ember
The nerf was justified
primal hazel
Dash is too strong itself
dry ember
I'm still sad though
primal hazel
It getting you a bunch of very strong duos is just too much
waxen comet
It doesn't need to be any stronger, yeah.
waxen comet
It also leads to Exposed
calm bluff
My next run I want to go Zeus into ares to get merciful end and just stack revenge perks
grim dune
yeah arty dash really should be allowed to be a pre-req for stuff
waxen comet
So, y'know, High Privilege synergy, and it's good damage too
dry ember
Parting Shot, I mean it's good but kinda niche
primal hazel
My next run I want to go Zeus into ares to get merciful end and just stack revenge perks
@calm bluff that's a waste
If you're aiming for ME you need to go hard on that
waxen comet
Not needed really
primal hazel
Aim for revenge after if you desperately want to
grim dune
like there's so little reason to take arty dash ever at the moment, idk why it isn't allowed as a pre-req for some arty stuff
dry ember
like there's so little reason to take arty dash ever at the moment
What?
opal lodge
some niche cases on poseidon
primal hazel
What
calm bluff
That's what I meant. Zeus into ares to get the duo
waxen comet
I think Hunter Dash has uses
opal lodge
arty dash is amazing
primal hazel
Hunter dash is nuts
opal lodge
it straight boosts the damage of your dash strike
waxen comet
Mostly for compensating Artemis' own lacking base damage boost
grim dune
every other dash synergises with stuff, arty dash is just more raw numbers
opal lodge
"just more raw numbers"
waxen comet
Raw numbers are very good, though
calm bluff
The best cc is death
opal lodge
on any weapon where you are primarily dash striking it is a straight up +70% damage boost
dry ember
I think that's a controversial take @grim dune
grim dune
ah yes please insult my intelligence
dry ember
You might get swarmed here
grim dune
I'm denser than bouldy obviously 🙄
waxen comet
Let's not, you two
primal hazel
Well if you call arti dash not synergistic
opal lodge
yeah theres no reason to get personal
waxen comet
Turns out I've been underrating Hunter Dash too until now.
I'm too enamored with the utility of other dashes, though.
primal hazel
The key is not telling people when you dumb
Which is what I try to do
waxen comet
You can educate people without straight up asking if they're dumb.
primal hazel
Athena, artemis and poseidon brash are prolly the best
waxen comet
C'mon.
opal lodge
zeus dash has some very good niche uses
dry ember
not everything love hunter dash
but the ones that do love it very much
bow, as you mentioned, is great because you dash strike a lot
weapons such as Nemesis Sword and most Spears love Hunter Dash because of Double Edge and Serrated Edge, respectively
Hestia also loves it because big base damage + 50% + Deadly Strike multiplier = big crits
So yeah, Hunter Dash synergies well with a lot of stuff, but certainly not all.
oh and Spread Fire Hunter Dash on Zag Rail. I miss you old SF
copy paste from yesterday on why Hunter Dash is great
primal hazel
I just wish they'd buff some of the other dashes
dry ember
like everything else, it's not always take scenario
grim dune
Yeah I like athena for the baseline "well why not" otherwise most other dashes bring something to the table. Zeus dash is a fun way to bring jolted in to the build if I have no other slot open and espeially if I already have Demeter then it's easy access to priviledged status for builds that maybe don't have other conditions. Poseidon is great damage / aoe / control. Demeter again is a way I like to backdoor in another status.
turbid needle
I really feel like the game would be slightly better if every dash effect occured at the end of the dash instead of the beginning, but I might be wrong?
dry ember
but it's great on many scenarios
waxen comet
Lightning Dash is alright, though I mostly use it to enable lightning strike buffs so I can get Splitting Bolts
opal lodge
lightning dash is very good on beowulf
grim dune
I guess it's just that other dashes bringing status or other interesting effects feels more... fun and impactful?
waxen comet
That makes sense
dry ember
I guess it's just that other dashes bringing status or other interesting effects feels more... fun and impactful?
I mean yeah, but with certain hammers, that + 50% (common) turns into + 100% or 150%, not to mention the impact of Deadly Strike if you have it.
waxen comet
I still wish I had reason to take something like Blade or Passion Dash sometimes.
calm bluff
And chaos boons on top
primal hazel
I guess it's just that other dashes bringing status or other interesting effects feels more... fun and impactful?
@grim dune artemis brings big damage to the table
grim dune
sure I love Deadly Strike, it's bonkers damage.
opal lodge
i took blade dash on my 40 heat beowulf run
but thats because i had literally nothing else and it was styx
dry ember
all I am saying is Hunter Dash is fine. there are many reasons to pick it
if you don't like it, that's fine too (or give it more tries, ig)
primal hazel
If it's between killing enemies very quickly and killing enemies less quickly but with nice symbols under their names
waxen comet
Hunter Dash actually gels nicely with Deadly Strike, amusingly.
primal hazel
Obvs aspect and build specific
opal lodge
hunter dash is better than fine it is the best dash for many weapons in the game on lower heats
on high heat nothing matters because athena
grim dune
Fair enough, it just feels odd to not be a pre-req like most other dashes enable more stuff. I can totally understand removing athena dash from pre-reqs because it's s+ tier
waxen comet
Suddenly your dash strike starts having actual numbers
primal hazel
Artemis isn't removed as pre req
dry ember
Artemis isn't removed as pre req
It was for Deadly Reversal pre 1.0 methink
primal hazel
Ok see
Here I dumb
waxen comet
A lot of Artemis' non-core boons revolve around a source of crit unfortunately
waxen comet
Even if it's Pressure Points
waxen comet
Never said Pressure Points itself was.
primal hazel
Also not talking PP specifically
dry ember
why are we talking PP?
primal hazel
Idk I wasn't
waxen comet
Just mentioned it off-hand since it gives a low amount of crit chance
waxen comet
Ye
dry ember
it was joke on pee pee but apparently im not as funny as i thought
primal hazel
Higher chances would be too much since even core boons only get like 20% max
waxen comet
mellow quest
it still isn't that much of a damage increase over time
small pp
hunter's mark is where the true crit power is
in clearing rooms
waxen comet
Just think of it as a small stacking multiplier
opal lodge
hunters mark is absolute insanity
waxen comet
Mark is good, just a bit of a pain to manage sometimes?
primal hazel
Have to play that more
grim dune
hunter's mark is great, though not good against bosses that aren't named T&A
primal hazel
Makes me sad with bosses
waxen comet
Or get rolling to begin with, for that matter
grim dune
hilarious against T&A tho
opal lodge
just keep hades' adds alive
dry ember
just keep hades' adds alive
yeah, about that
grim dune
I mean once you start critting them for the mark stack they're gonna go bye bye
mellow quest
hunter's mark is pretty cool when you are swinging arthur attacks in em4 phase 1 through all the doomstone summons being spammed and dad
waxen comet
More a matter of EM4 Hades adds being empowered minibosses that also have Vanish
opal lodge
obviously EM4 is a different story
waxen comet
Even normal Hades I'd rather get adds off ASAP
grim dune
yeah adds on hades are like
waxen comet
But Mark helps with clearing them at least
mellow quest
but like. hunter's mark doen't need to be amazing at bosses. it's amazing at its job already
making room clear significantly faster
primal hazel
Apricorn
dry ember
Apricorn
opal lodge
speed monkey brain tells me to keep normal hades adds alive with mark so i can kill him faster
grim dune
oh I've been playing too much pokemon, acorn whatever
dry ember
the speed monkey brain syndrome is true
primal hazel
No it's apricorn now
dry ember
not even because i'm a le speedrunner
waxen comet
I'm sad there's no Hermes emote. Why is there no Hermes emote?
dry ember
but because TD has scarred me for life
primal hazel
mellow quest
Hermes is too fast to get a good picture of.
waxen comet
Really though, I guess that speaks to the power of Hunter's Mark
It's just a bit of a bummer if your only starting crit source is Pressure Points.
opal lodge
it not a bummer if your crit source is PP on a high attack speed weapon
waxen comet
Crit Arthur 
opal lodge
getting one crit will chain really well
waxen comet
True
But I tend towards weapons with middling speed
Actually really enjoying Aegis lately
And Hades' spear, forget the name of the weapon
dry ember
Shield is a bit 
for me, personally.
waxen comet
Funnily, Punishing Sweep solves Artemis' base damage issue handily.
kindred hearth
Any thoughts on hammers for Arthur?
dry ember
And Hades' spear, forget the name of the weapon
Technically Hades' Spear is Gilgaros, the one you are thinking of is Varatha.
waxen comet
Varatha, thank you
turbid needle
Hades spear is so good
waxen comet
Punishing Sweep is ridiculous
proven osprey
Do you know guys know what happens when you suicide against dad thinking you have dark touch of styx but in fact, you don't ?
dry ember
Any thoughts on hammers for Arthur?
err Shadow Slash and Breaching Slash
proven osprey
Absolute humiliation
waxen comet
Makes me wonder why the Sweep exists on Achilles' and Zagreus' Varatha.
waxen comet
Breaching Slash for sure, aye
kindred hearth
That's kind of what I thought, thanks!
waxen comet
Delete armour
grim dune
the double dash attack is pretty fun on arthur
waxen comet
BTW, what happens with the Attack replacement hammers on Arthur's Stygius?
Do they just not show up?
dry ember
the double dash attack is pretty fun on arthur
yeah, it's fine to get, too. too bad it doesn't work with your dash combo extension.
otherwise double edge would be insane on Arthur
BTW, what happens with the Attack replacement hammers on Arthur's Stygius?
yeah they won't show up.
same thing with Hunter Dash and Luci Rail
there is no dash strike on Lucy so Hunter Dash isn't offered, either
unkempt pagoda
generally speaking, hammers that "replace" or fundamentally change a certain ability for a weapon won't show up on that weapon's 4th aspect
which is why lucifer has so many exclusive hammers! bc that describes a good chunk of its hammers
waxen comet
Does Excal get anything in return? I've seen the holy field upgrade, not much else
mighty ermine
flurry slash arthur
unkempt pagoda
i'm still of the mindset that arthur should've gotten cruel thrust
mighty ermine
that... wait actually yeah that would be really cool
unkempt pagoda
but excal and the other 4ths (besides luci) only get 1 exclusive hammer
waxen comet
Yeah I noticed Lucifer had a bunch
mighty ermine
cruel thrust coming into play early in the combo instead would be incredible
waxen comet
I tried the infinite ammo, no scaling hammer on a Lightning Strike and Splitting Bolt setup.
It was... Odd.
Kinda cool though.
Feel like it might've been better on a Doom setup
unkempt pagoda
unfortunately most of luci's exclusives are memes lol
the only ones worth their salt are flash fire and greater inferno
proven osprey
it's funny because he has a lot of em
unkempt pagoda
(and flash fire's, like, "why isn't this just the base kit?" to me)
proven osprey
and the aspect does not even shine for that
opal lodge
cruel thrust coming into play early in the combo instead would be incredible
@mighty ermine cruel shlice
proven osprey
wait it's no funny it's sad
waxen comet
I can't really figure out when/how to use the Special on Lucifer's Exagryph.
unkempt pagoda
you spam it with triple bomb
setting off 6 bombs with a good flourish is quite the trip
waxen comet
BTW, how critical is it to upgrade the explosion damage?
pliant anvil
if only luci could get cluster :/
unkempt pagoda
imo very critical
luci's special is the only thing that makes it stand out
its attack is cool, but anything you can put on it is outdone by eris
waxen comet
True
dry ember
i member when Eris was B- tier
proud topaz
that "this is brilliant but I like this" image macro with luci and eris
frail schooner
divine flourish is cool on super soaker
unkempt pagoda
here's my heat 40 build with new lucy: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/725021639506526249/772218234806992896/Hades_98.png
waxen comet
I wonder if the Doom stacking boon has a cooldown like Lightning Strike.
unkempt pagoda
divine flourish was pretty key here
opal lodge
divine flourish is huge
i think divine flourish thunder dash is super legit on the soaker
waxen comet
Not gonna lie I just want to see the fattest Doom drop possible now
Highest I've seen was a 1k crit
unkempt pagoda
the fattest possible was already patched out of the game lol
waxen comet
~600 on a Vengeful Mood setup
opal lodge
ive hit in the high 600s to low 700s with lucifer dire misfortune stacking and merciful end
but its not good
unkempt pagoda
the merciful end exploit was a brief but very memorable time in hades history
opal lodge
lucifer merciful end is super not good lol
just suffering for 2/3rds of the run and then i got the duo
waxen comet
How was the last third
proud topaz
luci + Curse of Agony + Dire Misfortune ? 🤔🤔
pliant anvil
isn't doom stacking weird though?
opal lodge
doom stacking is super weird
pliant anvil
like, it refreshes if it has a certain amount of time missing?
unborn pebble
Remind me, how many times do I get offered a Hammer in Elysium?
twice, right?
Same as the Miniboss (provided the room layour does not bork you)?
waxen comet
Game always attempts to give you two per run
unborn pebble
Oh, meant if I chose other rooms.
Because I know some rewards are offered at minimum X number of times if you don't have them.
waxen comet
It'll usually appear a second time if you avoid the first, I think
unborn pebble
Ok, thanks.
waxen comet
Worst case it can sometimes appear in Styx if you really manage to avoid it
grim dune
anecdotally I feel like if I pick a different room to the hammer then it stalks me; seems like game really wants you to take a hammer room in eleysium
dry ember
but you can only ever take 2
unless you like to gamble at the anvil
waxen comet
Yeah, I usually get one in Tartarus and the second in Elysium
pliant anvil
well, the anvil isn't a hammer though 😛 it is its own thing
mellow quest
it's not just anecdotal. you're extremely likely to keep seeing that 2nd hammer in elysium if you skip it.
and reroll gold doors into a hammer
if you use fated authority
if you skip it all the way through Elysium there is a good chance it is in styx as a chamber reward at the end.
pliant anvil
hammerless/boonless run when?
dry ember
hammerless though?
mellow quest
oh, both
dry ember
hammerless/boonless is perfectly doable at 0 heat imo.
mellow quest
sounds miserably slow
dry ember
yeah lol
dry ember
no hammer, no boon, no keepsake, no companion, no aspect, no upgrade
tawny meadow
Why is freezing vortex so terrible, like did no one say that it feels bad...
dry ember
let's take the bow, dash strike is 50 damage, Hades has about 16k per phase health I think
torture%
mellow quest
we've been saying blade rifts in general aren't so good since early access
but hunting blades goes brrrr
tawny meadow
Yeah but freezing vortex can't even stack with hunting blades
keen hazel
blade rifts is definitely a b tier cast but it has its niches it excels in without needing hunting blades sometimes too
mellow quest
but the logic of "a boon that requires 2 more boons and a duo to be good isn't actually all that good" is kinda lost
tawny meadow
It's free damage
still vigil
and might try somethin outside of normal bloodstones
proven osprey
zagreus cast S tier
tawny meadow
Lots of speed run builds revolve around casts
mellow quest
phalanx, flood, crush, electric shot are my top picks. true shot is ight. festive fog, crystal meme, blade shot fall into the "can be storng but requires a b c d e f g boon to kick off"
grim dune
Fog works great even alone with Hera
mellow quest
there are exceptions with festive fog since hera and beowulf are a thing
tawny meadow
Festive fog is strong as hell on beo
dry ember
festive fog
is that what the kids are calling trippy shot nowadays?
mellow quest
but lobbing is just awkward and embed damage is kind of important.
tawny meadow
I like freezing fog but it's a duo.
pliant anvil
embed damage is unimportant if your running a cast build
mellow quest
to the point that mathematically speaking, crystal meme by itself in tartarus is just worse than a normal cast.
pliant anvil
well, unless you're running artemis
tawny meadow
@dry ember it's what it's called in the boon description
mellow quest
the only time i call festive fog trippy shot is when hera is involved
otherwise there is no shooting
there is only awkward lobbing
pliant anvil
well, then it's trippy flare tbf
grim dune
trippy fog also suffers a lot from the same issue the rail special does if you play on controller
mellow quest
trippy flare is beowulf
grim dune
ie. annoying to aim
pliant anvil
no, hera is flare too
dry ember
^
tawny meadow
Ice wine is ironically bad on the weapons festive fog is good on
pliant anvil
I mean, it's good on achilles for the teleport
mellow quest
the delay makes it awkward on hera and beo
tawny meadow
Yeah but I wouldn't say that regular fog is good on Achilles
pliant anvil
reg fog is ok on achilles, just gotta aim for where they spawn
and it does have a decent sized zoe
dry ember
Ice wine is ironically bad on the weapons festive fog is good on
wait, you think ice wine is bad on say beowulf and hera?
tawny meadow
Yes the delay is awful
dry ember
grim dune
ice wine is great on hera
dry ember
to each their own i guess
grim dune
moar damage
pliant anvil
it's also +30% cast damage
dry ember
^
pliant anvil
which, on hera/beowulf is big
mellow quest
it's good damage but it can whiff on em4 fo2 dad a lot
hollow bane
second hades win with exploding crit bow 😄
pliant anvil
since the only other sources of cast damage are inconsistent at best
proven osprey
It's ok I never make it to FO2 EM4 
dry ember
it's ok I know how you feel
opal lodge
ice wine is bad on beo
the increased cast time hits it really hard
just go for scintillating
tawny meadow
Yeah I agree on paper it sounds good but the delay makes it not good. I can't think of any applications where ice wine hera/beo is better than festive fog
mellow quest
it's usable but only just barely
opal lodge
the delay is pretty terrible for beowulf imo
opal lodge
it happens with hera too though
tawny meadow
It has the same problems
opal lodge
i usually go aphro cast hera but it does the same thing
like i would love ice wine if it was jsut +30% damage
not arguing with that part
its just it comes with a huge conditional
opal lodge
well obviously the delay doesnt matter if it hits the target but sometimes it does not
dry ember
never seen anything just walk out of the fog without taking the initial damage
tawny meadow
But you miss more with the delay
dry ember
i disagree with that
tawny meadow
I mean you're wrong but ok
opal lodge
maybe you are just good with ice wine
there is no wrong imo
if it works for you it works for you
but just explaining why i personally dont like it on beo or hera
grim dune
yeah I've also never seen that, and I've run ice wine fo2 quite a lot
tawny meadow
In both the speed run community and the challenge run community ice wine hera/beo is viewed as bad because of the delay
opal lodge
hey if they suddenly put up sub 7 time with beo ice wine maybe that'll change people's minds
no one thought hades spear was good until tailesque did 50 heat on it
dry ember
In both the speed run community and the challenge run community
Well I participate and follow both communities, never seen anyone says that
in some Hermes Cup race, I believe someone went for Ice Wine also
so ¯_(ツ)_/¯
tawny meadow
Wriste/duunk0/Vorime/bablo all have said multiple times that ice wine hera/beo is bad
proven osprey
Well I participate and follow both communities, never seen anyone says that
@dry ember check mate, boyo
pliant anvil
I mean, not exactly. Technically, they've made an unsupported claim that X said Y
And no, I don't really care if they did or didn't say it
mellow quest
Everyone knows everything you read on the internet is true
dry ember
if they really said that then I guess I will concede that point
pliant anvil
I'll take them at their word
tawny meadow
And wriste made beo festive fog popular in the speed run community
mellow quest
Festive fog beo just need Stygian soul
opal lodge
also just the fact that none of the top 10 stygian beo times on the leaderboard use ice wine and maybe a good 50% or more use scintillating
or mirage shot
tawny meadow
Yeah scintillating and mirage are both leagues better
dry ember
sure, you changed my mind for speedrunning purposes, if wriste really said that.
frail schooner
can you get both scintillating and mirage
dry ember
but i still haven't seen an ice wine shot missing
opal lodge
yes you can get both scintillating and mirage
pliant anvil
it's rare though, that's all 4 gods iirc, and it means replacing a boon potentially
opal lodge
why would you need to replace
the standard setup for stygian beo is arty attack, pos special, dio cast and thunder dash
pliant anvil
Wait nvm, I didn't realize mirage had more than special/cast/attack
proven osprey
quick question
mellow quest
Mirage shot doesn't even need a cast
proven osprey
shoud I go Zeus attack for fists ?
pliant anvil
I like zeus on fists
mellow quest
It's good damage early but you will slow down a lot without jolted damage and/or splitting bolt
proven osprey
I've been trying it and god I lack dmg vs Asterius
pliant anvil
I think it's a pretty hjigh increase in damage on attack
mellow quest
Or big burst damage elsewhere on the build
tawny meadow
Depends, it's catching on in the race scene because it's more consistent then ME but damage falls off
pliant anvil
but yeah, falls off later
grim dune
yeah full zeus is good on anything with fast attack speed
opal lodge
@proven osprey are you running dem fists
opal lodge
try putting something beefy like artemis on special
yeah
use that for boss dmg
it's big
mellow quest
The big advantage of zues attack fist is your dps uptime is very good
opal lodge
zeus attack is very nice for clearing rooms and your special is good for bosses
aphro special is nice but imo inferior to artemis for dem fists
tawny meadow
The advantage is that you clear tart super quickly
opal lodge
each hit of dem upper can crit separately
proven osprey
I died to 3rd boss but I think I'm too tired
mellow quest
It's still fast in Asphodel.
proven osprey
yeah it's pretty fast early on
opal lodge
T&A is the hardest fight for dem fists on high heat
proven osprey
TD3 piece of cake
mellow quest
And only really slows against armored Elysium targets
opal lodge
breaching cross has entered the chat
proven osprey
it's not high, only 32
opal lodge
EM3?
proven osprey
EM3 yeah
opal lodge
athena dash really helps for asterius
proven osprey
Yeah I used it
opal lodge
also just remembering you can just stop attacking any time you want to
to i frame the big guy's jumps
dry ember
dem fists?
dry ember
Maybe try Deadly Flourish?
sweet heath
how do bonus death defiances work with stubborn defiance?
used up before the stubborn or after?
proven osprey
from athena you mean ?
sweet heath
from chaos in this case but yea
proven osprey
SD first
sweet heath
oh interesting
dry ember
yeah
opal lodge
i just did poseidon sword for 32 lol
proven osprey
oh yeah
opal lodge
didnt want to actually play sword
keen hazel
arthur for an ez 32
stark ore
I actually tried Arthur 40 heat once, didn’t go well lmfao
keen hazel
Did you have FO2 on? FO2 can be rough for that
stark ore
mellow quest
It's doable
stark ore
yes
proven osprey
FO2 is now vanilla
mellow quest
And if you can get through fo2 arthur 30+ heat you can get through most anything
stark ore
TD3 is what mainly screwed me over, I’ll probably just put points into HL and JS instead
proven osprey
what is your idea of an Arthur build ?
keen hazel
TD3 is fine on arthur till 30+ imo, its dummy fast
proven osprey
oh really
mellow quest
Anything beyond that is just gravy
keen hazel
I like aphro on flourish for going fast
mellow quest
Alternatively, heartbreak strike and stack dr
keen hazel
get heartrend and extra damage to weak and you hit big critties
proven osprey
yeah I would have done that
mellow quest
It's slower but safer
proven osprey
- styg blood
opal lodge
ok buddy here is your 8 damage
mellow quest
Hl5? Sorry dad your spin hit me for 9
keen hazel
yeah if you can get the festive fog going with the aura and weak lol
asterius charging me for 5 dmg like ok lol
proven osprey
I'm doing my 32 without HL at all
And really
Asterius charge is not the same thing
mellow quest
HL is tough. It's bad all the way through to the end
proven osprey
Because when you're a poor GY facing him FO2 HL3 or so
mellow quest
And it's straight up just much less eHP
It also makes double damage bp enemies hilarious
proven osprey
bp ?
keen hazel
arthur aura in the witch room is super op
anything with deflect becomes your best friend at that point
proven osprey
I like Alecto with that aura
unborn pebble
So how good is Twin Shot on Hera?
proven osprey
non existent
unborn pebble
That bad?
mellow quest
It's not that bad.
proven osprey
I don't see much benefits
mellow quest
Unless you're on switch
proven osprey
but it's not the worst hammer
mellow quest
Then you're still on baby range mode
opal lodge
twin shot is very good on hera if you are trying to go fast but triple is probably better
both help out in tartarus, which can otherwise be quite challenging to go quickly in
mellow quest
As long as you don't take flurry shot with something like crush or true shot you're fine
opal lodge
the nice thing about castspects is hammers usually dont matter too much
unless it's flurry jab achilles
in which case you are no longer a castspect
mellow quest
They matter a lot on beo
opal lodge
that would be news to me lol
i dont really give a rats ass which hammers get handed to me on beo
i care a lot more about getting a good chaos/boon rng
opal lodge
fair
though i dont really special at all on beo anyway tbf
i wasn't a pre-1.0 beo player
proven osprey
I think I only tried Beo on Skelly
opal lodge
the only hammers that i'll be pleased to see are charged flight, dashing wallop and unyielding defense
but im not particular
proven osprey
Are you guys stats balanced ? All aspects used ?
opal lodge
ferocious guard is also good
i have >100 on rail and shield and then around 50 on everything else
mighty ermine
100 heat on rail and shield 
mighty ermine
probably a hugely disproportionate number because of early deaths and resetting certain runs lol
opal lodge
loool ok fair
i think i need to get a new save file soon
hitching might become an issue
mighty ermine
especially from pre-1.0 when we were all doing seeded
opal lodge
that is quite a funny screen
grim dune
mighty ermine
hades aspect in bottom three
proven osprey
hades aspect in bottom three
@mighty ermine I'm planning to spam it !
half crater
iirc nyaanyaa once said that going from GY to hades was like taking training weights off
tawny meadow
Charged shot is my favorite shield hammer
half crater
so on hades you’ll prolly be a god at this point
proven osprey
iirc nyaanyaa once said that going from GY to hades was like taking training weights off
@half crater Well it goes the same for all aspects I feel
It's more like
GY made me better at not getting hit
opal lodge
@tawny meadow thats a good call i like charged shot too
proven osprey
I can't play shield
opal lodge
it's just bugged rn so i put it outta my mind
opal lodge
im bad at dodging because i grew up with a shield in front of me
mighty ermine
wait charged shot is bugged?
proven osprey
I'm just trying to i-frames things
tawny meadow
Yeah for sure that's what it is GY played pretty different from the other spear aspects > GY made me better at not getting hit
@proven osprey
opal lodge
@mighty ermine sometimes it eats your cast stone without casting RN
lemme find the clip
mighty ermine
oh oof
half crater
i have never experienced this
tawny meadow
F it discord mobile no like me
half crater
that’s super weird
tawny meadow
I can't tell what's going on, on my phone
half crater
i’ve used charged shot on beo a few times recently and haven’t seen anything like that
proven osprey
cast went into chaos dimension it seems
half crater
entirely possible it only happens on stygian tho
tawny meadow
Ah yeah never seen that before
half crater
dunno what that would even mean on infernal lol
mellow quest
Blood Price: your Bloodstones and casts have a chance to simply vanish. 10% chance per rank, 1 heat per rank up to 10
half crater
oof
tawny meadow
Haven't seen a steam controller layout before kinda assumed they didn't sell well
I wish I could get cerberus call like em4 dad
grim dune
secret final trinket: satyr snacks to get the cerberus call 😛
icy kernel
What are good boons for the spear?