Maybe? But I don't know how you would do that exactly.
#h1-builds-and-combat
static jacinth
But I think it would be better that way, because then the bow would be used more like... A bow.
Rather than a short range shotgun.
hearty elbow
Shrug, e.g. with Twin Shot, you could double the # of shots but make each shot hit for 75% damage, but also make the base bow deal 150% damage
it would end up being the same thing
I think. I didn't actually think through that math very long lol, but you get the idea
The range of bows needs to be longer and the growth rate of the range needs to be much higher, in general, I think.
static jacinth
That's making them faster 😄
hearty elbow
It doesn't make sense that Hestia can get full range instantly then "charge" afterwards but Bows have to do their charge up front and have bad range if they don't
But I don't think the power shot timings need to change, just how long it takes for the bow to get to the max range
static jacinth
If it stays, it really should be a better payoff though.
Powershot is harder to do than just reload with hestia.
And yet it's only a fraction as good.
hearty elbow
It also pierces, which isn't nothing
But yeah, agreed, the bow damage isn't ideal the way it is now
If you don't get a great hammer as is stands now, you just don't do viable damage, which is unfun.
The same could be said for Beowulf and Guan Yu to be fair
static jacinth
It also doesn't help that the special needs a whole aspect just to make it usable.
Which means that a pile of hammers are useless.
hearty elbow
The base bow special is another issue entirely. Way too much startup, way too much recovery, no damage. But it does scale really well from hammers (Charged Volley + Relentless is great)
Chiron aspect is a great idea with terrible execution because you have to use the terrible base bow special
static jacinth
Is charged volley even good without shotgunning it?
pseudo stream
The same could be said for Beowulf and Guan Yu to be fair
@hearty elbow this just means you have two complaints, and not zero
hearty elbow
@static jacinth Nope, you have to shotgun
static jacinth
See, I feel like a bow shouldn't want to be in melee range to be useful.
Call me crazy.
pseudo stream
yeah... I find both the bow and rail awkward, feels like they have an extra mechanic that doesn't really belong
(that said, I wouldn't really want to buff them, just move their power around a bit)
static jacinth
I'd move bow's power into being a viable ranged option.
pseudo stream
I personally am finding Rama great at range
I only just took out heat 7, so I'm not really an expert, but the bow basic attacks do seem good at range
hearty elbow
Rama is fine at ranged, but the strongest use is definitely at mid/point blank.
static jacinth
Unrelated, but this run is going wonderfully. 700 damage trippy shots.
And Chaos is going to add 70% to that shortly.
pseudo stream
I had point blank shot but was t oo cowardly to use it generally haha
why's it so good at close range?
pseudo stream
is that generally useful with the bow? tapping it long enough that it starts to fire then release?
hearty elbow
Explosive, triple and point blank shot are better close up. Rama already takes forever to charge so you don't want to if you don't have to.
Only with Rama and potentially Hera
pseudo stream
I haven't found it easy to make triple hit the same guy multiple times, is that a thing?
hearty elbow
You have to be very close.
pseudo stream
scary 😛
pseudo stream
oh my. that's a lot of damage. they're the chilly ones? which weapon/aspect?
static jacinth
Poseidon blade.
pseudo stream
that was my guess
cuz that's a BIG number
can't rip it out of people, but also barely need to 😛
pseudo stream
... wat
barren otter
168 is bigger than 8439 
static jacinth
Also it lands really quickly with flurry cast.
pseudo stream
well 168! IS really big
hearty elbow
Lol
pseudo stream
... how did that happen though? haha
hearty elbow
It's Arthur aspect lol, you can hit 4 digits trivially in Tartarus :3
dry ember
Breaching Slash + Crit is x9 damage on armor
Backstab Boiling Blood and Boons for the rest
And yeah, Arthur 200 base damage helps (a lot)
static jacinth
At heats above 20 you get darkness after bosses, right?
dry ember
If you already cleared the bounties for the previous heat, yes.
static jacinth
Yeah, I realized and did that.
main osprey
o7
bronze sorrel
Just tried a Blade Rift caster build with Aspect of Achilles and wow that was nasty. Totally melts bosses.
Finished with level 9 epic Slicing Shot (22 base damage per tick), legendary aspect of Achilles (150% bonus cast damage after a rush), rare [Chaos] Shot (+48% cast damage), epic Ravenous Will (+30% damage while you have no bloodstones), so I think if I did my maths right thats 72 damage per tick after a rush. Also had level 3 rare Black Metal (36% area increase), epic Engulfing Vortex (+0.4 sec duration and pulls), Hunting Blades (seeking), and rare Flurry Cast (40% faster cast and autocast).
barren otter
Does +special speed do anything to Lucifer Rail special (or any Rail special for that matter)? I noticed the Hermes visual effect on every pulse of the hellfire orb, but I'm not sure if the pulses were any faster. I had +30% special speed.
And also, does +special damage affect only the explosion, or the pulse damage too? I had a hammer upgrade for +250% pulse damage in a larger area, so I'm not sure if all the damage came from only the hammer or if boons affected it too.
main osprey
The damage should apply to the pulse, not sure about the speed
Boons for the special definitely affect the pulses
void fjord
Is there any special conditions for smouldering air, cause i have a hard time getting it even after getting 2boons for zeus and aphro each
i do have an aid most of the time so not having one isnt the problem im pretty sure
static jacinth
Are you sure you have the right boons?
One of the core 5.
Attack, Special, Cast, Dash, Aid.
Also, it could just be RNG.
void fjord
yea like on the rail i have zeus attack and aphro special
and then maybe aphro aid or athena aid
static jacinth
Just unlucky then.
void fjord
i probably have bad rng tbf
static jacinth
Try equipping the mirror talent that boosts duo luck.
cunning urchin
@void fjord make sure you fill your slots for Attack, Special, Cast, and Dash. Those 4 have priority when you're offered boons.
I think they have priority over Duo Boons, too.
cunning urchin
And reroll with Persuasion while you still have a god keepsake from them equipped. It gives you a higher chance for a Duo Boon or Legendary.
fossil stone
Soo, I finaly had some time to dive into the game, got it couple of months back but now I had a week off and whoops, there is a hundret hours, 130(ish) runs and 50 something clears.
So I like to think I got a grasp on the basics, tried out every god, got my personal favorites and while I am playing I am thinking, hey these hidden aspects are all quite fun, most of them are really unique "sidegrates" some pretty friggin strong, Lucifer for example is basically my only rail that can get past extreme measures heroes, but hey maybe thats a playstyle thing, and I am not a fan of ranged weapons anyways.
Then suddenly I unlock Arthur and it is like there is no reason for excalibur to be this good. Is it like a noob trap where the long windups on everything make the weapon trash on higher heat? (I am up to 16 with my best weapons, aka every meelee weapon) Used to be I struggled with the sword the most out of them, now that I have arthur it feels like a cakewalk. Like it gives more HP, slows projectiles, reduces dmg taken and has absurd dmg, when you pick Aphrodite on your attack that thing backstabs for 1k casually. I think I also had hunter dash and the deadalus boon that gives more backstab damage. Still that seemed excessive to me.
peak iron
I really don't think it's a noob trap, it's just really powerful
cunning urchin
Yeah, Excalibur is really good.
Nemesis holds the high-heat record for Stygius currently.
peak iron
I love free crits
fossil stone
used to be nemesis was my favorite stygius form. free crits are really fun with lots of artemis in your build.
dry ember
The biggest obstacles with Excalibur are perhaps Forced Overtime and Damage Control.
hearty elbow
Just a tip though that Hunter Dash is a lot less good than you'd want it to be on Excalibur. It affects literally only your basic Dash Strike. Not your dashed attack combos
dry ember
Not too long ago people were complaining how torturous it was to play Excalibur with DC2 for the weekly challenge.
hearty elbow
HL5 and LC4 are also problems for Excalibur, since they seriously diminish your health and damage mitigation advantage
"Tanking hits" is no longer really an option with those active. You just have to not get hit... which is not the easiest thing in the world with that weapon
fossil stone
by HL5 and LC4 you mean hard labour and lasting consequences? sorry I am new here.
hearty elbow
yep!
fossil stone
alright, well I am at the stage where I get away by only using "free and or fun" heat mods aka extreme measures tight dealine and the one that gives armored enemies random powerups.
hearty elbow
Forced Overtime and Damage Control are the worst pacts of Excalibur, but HL5 and LC4 kind of diminish its advantages and force you to play like the other melee weapons anyway
fossil stone
I can see forced overtime being a pain, getting interrupted on the attacks is annoying but 1 level of DC is always free, I feel, I tend to like getting the giant aura and simply slam the special down and suddenly nothing has damage control anymore.
dry ember
Yeah Excalibur power curve is weird.
hearty elbow
I've had mobs spawn mid attack -> dash -> attack -> dash -> attack combo and DC wrecks your damage potential in those situations
dry ember
It's strong at lower heat then becomes much harder to use later on.
hearty elbow
Even the first rank
dry ember
That said it can still clear like really high heat, just harder imo.
hearty elbow
Yeah, the issue is clearing with Excalibur at really high heat is kind of like doing it with Zag aspect. You're just playing a bad Nemesis
(I know I sound like I'm naysaying but Excalibur really is quite good. Its issues only become apparent at extremely high heat--like 40+)
fossil stone
I can see that with zag, but surely with nemesis there are different ways to build, if you get the flurry attack for example, suddenly there is a very different buildpath open where you go zeus or Dio attack from my experience you cannot get that on Excalibur and therefore I tend to go for the percentage crew on the attack.
hearty elbow
Nemesis has 1.25 build paths
Dash Strike spam and Merciful End (the latter being the 0.25 path lol, because it's good with everything close range and quick)
It's a VERY good build path, don't get me wrong
fossil stone
I personaly spam dashstrike on everything because Zeus and Ares dash are both on my top ten permanent record, but still I build nemesis different from Arthur.
hearty elbow
I think on Arthur I generally end up going Deadly Strike + Divine Dash + Heartbreak Flourish
fossil stone
the double proc on dashstrike is also really cool from deadalus.
hearty elbow
Which is generally more or less how I want Nemesis to be, maybe swapping around some of the crit goddess boons depending on heat
fossil stone
my god heartbreak flourish so good.
dry ember
I have more damage using Heartbreak Strike
With crit big numbers are fun, but you overkill so much it hurts your DPS
hearty elbow
At lower heat getting Deadly Reversal and Heart Rend is very easy
dry ember
I think from a min max perspective, Heartbreak Strike is better
hearty elbow
I agree with you for higher heat though where you can't always get stuff
fossil stone
I think Aphrodite has the biggest generic increase but crit is really good so it is whatever I can get.
hearty elbow
And at higher heat you really need to spread weak efficiently as well
dry ember
You can get Deadly Reversal with Heartbreak Strike. Just put Artemis and Athena on some thing else.
fossil stone
does it have to be one of the five main boons?
hearty elbow
Yeah, same deal though. Point being, any combination of Aretmis, Aphro, and Athena is the same build concept, it's just optimization and preference past that point lol
Nemesis and Arthur have that in common
Except Nemesis wants Hunter Dash a lot more (though I still prefer Divine Dash because obv)
fossil stone
divine dash used to be my favorite but I found out that lightning dash and blade rift can carry me though bow runs so they are higher on my permanent record by now I think.
hearty elbow
bow?
fossil stone
yeah I mean I just pick good dashes and pray that hermes gives me more of them so I don't have to play actually shoot arrows...
I am really terrible with the bow
hearty elbow
Oh lol, I see
cunning urchin
That's valid lol.
fossil stone
the only cheatcode I found was lightning flourish on the one that seeks target
that was pretty stupid
hearty elbow
That no longer works
dry ember
Ah the classic how to use bow: don't use bow
hearty elbow
Chiron basically has no text anymore
dry ember
Oh wait that's a spear build.
fossil stone
I literally did it yesterday
hearty elbow
It can occasionally hit twice
But that's it
If you're very lucky with spacing. 90+% of the time it's hitting once
fossil stone
really? I mean I had double strike and split bolt so I was hard for me to tell but with the upgrade that gives you three extra shots I was melting enemies.
dry ember
If you don't want to use your weapon
Look for Curse of Drowning
That's your other cheatcode
Or Hunting Blade
hearty elbow
Though I think they nerfed it to have an actual cast time didn't they?
hearty elbow
Yeah lol, it doesn't really matter but it was more of a meme before how racecar you could go
dry ember
Racecar is a palindrome
hearty elbow
Palindrome isn't 😦
really? I mean I had double strike and split bolt so I was hard for me to tell but with the upgrade that gives you three extra shots I was melting enemies.
@fossil stone Yes, unfortunately. It's a rule now with Lightning and Support Fire, that they can only proc once every 0.2s, so things that attack a bunch at the same time can no longer benefit from them linearly
fossil stone
Thats a shame, but I think with the upgraded 3 extra shots I still got multiple procs. I remember getting the faster flourish from hermes though and being disappointed by the damage afterward, maybe I accidentally debuffed myself.
hearty elbow
There is very little knowledge in that space lol, Chiron is kind of a meme in the community in its current state
cunning urchin
I don't think Chiron is a meme.
fossil stone
it is my best bow for sure, aka the only one I finished an EM3 run with.
hearty elbow
I mean bow at large is a meme. Chiron is just one of them
dry ember
How so?
fossil stone
I always thought it was just me being bad with it.
hitting charged shots sure is fun but I never find myself having the space to do so. when there are flaming chariots on my tail the last thing I wanna do is hold still and wait for the right moment.
hearty elbow
Scan down the Feedback and see how many of them are "bow feels bad because x." It's a really commonly held belief that bow is disproportionally underpowered compared to the other aspects
dry ember
the thing is feedback comes in waves.
Before bow it was spear being a "meme"
before that it was Spreadfire OP etc etc
hearty elbow
Yeah I don't think the complaints are totally valid, obviously. It's still my favorite and best weapon.
fossil stone
OT: oh hey, there is an all the games rank, thought I had to join all the ranks.
dry ember
Also needing a buff doesn't mean something is a "meme"
hearty elbow
The memes mostly come from the fact that the bow spirtually the rangiest range weapon but it's probably like... in 4th place in effective range lol
fossil stone
I don't mind that type of language though, it is the internet hyperboly is fun. Also the countless inages in the victory boasting channel proof that statement ridiculous anyways.
dry ember
I do because it gives people a warped impression of the game
I steered away from spear for the longest time because people called it bad
or it being a "meme"
hearty elbow
Hestia, Beowulf/Chaos and Charged Skewer all have bow beat in terms of free range, and they don't have to charge to get it either
So when people ask me why I play bow as a melee weapon, that's why lol
If I wanted to range, there are better weapons
fossil stone
I don't know most people that are here come here because they already love the game, I just got here an hour ago or so and I feel like I know that by "its a meme" people don't mean it is literally useless.
dry ember
If I run 32 heat or less, except for Chaos Shield, all, and I do mean all, weapons have the same power level for me.
you need to tweak the pact accordingly, of course.
hearty elbow
Yeah I agree, more or less
You have to do funky things to get the equality, like Merciful End on Zag
sword*
dry ember
ok fair, except for Chaos Shield and Zag Sword
fossil stone
whats the chaos aspect again?
hearty elbow
Big purple shield that shoots 5 shields after you bull rush
fossil stone
Alright the one I never use, fair, could have seen that coming.
didn't know if that was zeus or chaos
dry ember
that's Chaos, and it's very reliable to use
barren otter
Wow, didn't think deflect would shred these guys like that
https://imgur.com/CrbdMpJ
hearty elbow
Can't tell, is that +/- Brilliant Riposte?
barren otter
that's without brilliant riposte
hearty elbow
lol
barren otter
it just deflects all the projectiles that they spawn inside of themselves
dry ember
you can one shot Tisiphone or Meg stage with Deflect, too
fossil stone
divine dash makes witches circle really sad
hearty elbow
It's a cool fight that's wayyy too easy to cheese through. Or just fight through, they have so little health
Barge could definitely be made less annoying and Power Couple could be made less... power couply to make this fight more dangerous
fossil stone
I think thats fair though, not every room needs to be memorable because its tough, some can be memorable because they make you feel like a mastermind when you completely outplay them for the first time
dry ember
wait Power Couple is not dangerous as it is right now?
hearty elbow
I said less power couply lol
dry ember
Power Couple could be made less... power couply to make this fight more dangerous
this implies that they are not as dangerous as they should be?
or am I missing something here
hearty elbow
No it implies that they are too much of themselves and should be made less so
Like diverting some of the stupid from the MM Power Couple fight and siphoning it into witches
fossil stone
I think the idea behind powecouple is soo cool though, of course an animated rock and a gorgon would be lovers and the synergy is on point. the only way to lose that fight is when you get hit with the one two pretty much.
hearty elbow
Try it with HL5 and FO2 lol, it gets real dumb real fast
gleaming current
I feel like the rock is overtuned compared to gorgon
Especially with Extreme Measures
or whatever buffs minibosses
hearty elbow
I feel like the rock has completely jank hitboxes and you shouldn't be allowed to dash away from the outside of the pink circle only to get hit by the pink circle again
dry ember
oh this fight you are referring to the Witch fight >.<
fossil stone
oh i bet you, I avoid FO2 like the plague, I once tried it for fun an hades mocked me by saying he was impressed. Also middle management is the mini bosses extreme measures is the big bosses.
gleaming current
Yeah MM that is. I just enable both by default lel
fossil stone
yeah they are the fun heat markers I always turn them on first and of course tight deadline because its free
hearty elbow
Like, i don't mind the concept of minibosses potentially ending my runs, I just want to it feel more my fault
dry ember
shockwaves in the game are quite.. "bugged"
gleaming current
shocking, isn't it?
cunning urchin
Just git gud. 
dry ember
yeah the devs should git gud at coding
hearty elbow
You can definitely git gud the Power Couple fight, doesn't make it less dumb though
dry ember
(I kid please don't ban, I love you SGG)
gleaming current
Fightingb rock be like:
trigger the fall
double dash away
double dash in (with no dash strike or you die)
1 second of damage dealing
repeat
cunning urchin
You don't need to double-dash.
dry ember
500IQ strat: deflect the Gorgon bullet back to the Skullcrusher so you can stun it.
gleaming current
Single dash through initial fall is pretty tricky
hearty elbow
And spacing based, because Skullcrusher's got them gigantic invisible thighs
gleaming current
500iq strat is nice and all but armored foes don't get stunned
fossil stone
in all seriousness, out of all the studios out there SGG is the only one where I feel safe saying I love them still. With all the horror stories we hear about ubi, naughtydog, CPR and so on... Happy to have you.
That being said, shockwaves are the bane of my existance too. I remember being like "alright 10 winstreak coming in" friend said "turn on stream lets see it" so I did and I prescedet to get hit by every skullwave in the hades fight, losing me 3 death defies. that sure was fun.
dry ember
tbh getting hit by shockwave twice makes me feel like a dumbass
fossil stone
jup. after a while when you suck, you get into spamdash mode, and when hermes was kind enough to let you have like four of them, you can really mess yourself up.
hearty elbow
Or spam dashing into urns
fossil stone
also a fun hobby of mine
fossil stone
jup sure am glad I reflected that one witch blast in order do get sliced up by the giant axe
gleaming current
Seems legit
hearty elbow
3 dashes feels like the best number for Hades. Enough to easily do stuff and get out, and not too much that my flight reflexes carry me to defeat
gleaming current
Dodge skull shockwave to get roasted by lasers
fossil stone
thats why we pick broken speakpoint though am I right?
gleaming current
Also yeah 3 dashes seems to be optimal. 4+ carries controls away somehow
Brain become subconsciously overconfident
fossil stone
yeah but how else are you going to get carried by way to many bladerifts?
hearty elbow
Nah, you take Acorn to offer the charges to the Soulcatcher goddess
gleaming current
Just press dash button faster 
fossil stone
I really need to level my acorn
I have it level 1 it is one of like 3 keepsakes that I don't have maxed
hearty elbow
That's... unusual. I guess I got used to seeing nearly everyone use it 50-75% of the biomes
gleaming current
Real legends get lifesteal weapons and pick lucky tooth 
turbid heart
what is the best Lucifer aspect hammer? i thought infinite ammo would be good but losing the ramp up sucked too much
hearty elbow
If you're doing Zeus or Dire Misfortune Ares, then Eternal Chamber is great, but I like Flash Fire in general, and the piercing one
fossil stone
I think infinite is only good when you play dio or zeus attack and you got supporting fire.
dry ember
what is the best Lucifer aspect hammer? i thought infinite ammo would be good but losing the ramp up sucked too much
faster ramp and triple beam
triple beam = triple damage at point blank
shot gun lucifer
turbid heart
first hammer its between ramp up and pierce/armor damage
hearty elbow
If you're doing attack damage lucy I love the pierce/armor one
It gives you effectively AoE
turbid heart
i dont have a attack on it yet. hammer was like 3rd room
dry ember
pierce before ramp imop
fossil stone
anyways people, I wanted to drop some quick feedback, then suddenly I spent an hour talking about the game, fun discord Ill be back some other day. Cya!
hearty elbow
peace
turbid heart
most fun i have had with Lucifer was a special focus build with hazardous. carpet bombing was so easy
hearty elbow
Lol, Hazardous is pretty fun, yeah
turbid heart
i had Aphro which has a super high multiplier on special
hearty elbow
Applies Super Weak: Enemies deal 0% damage when they're dead
hearty elbow
My only complaint is that aiming at the bomb on controller is an exercise in patience
Though I guess one you've committed to the big explosions life you can turn aim assist off
turbid heart
Dio attack any good on Lucifer?
hearty elbow
It's "fine"
I find it pretty tedious to get stacks on more than 3 enemies but yeah
It works
turbid heart
i mean you only need it on 3 people if u pick up that boon
hearty elbow
Lol, well, you definitely want hangover on everyone if possible ala Chaos or Rama aspect
cunning urchin
Applies Super Weak: Enemies deal 0% damage when they're dead
Inferno-Bombers have entered the chat.
hearty elbow
I had a run end from Speeder Puller Slam Dancers yesterday
So much stupid
Couldn't handle it
cunning urchin
I'm 99% sure Speeder Puller is a banned combo.
hearty elbow
Possibly? It could that they felt like they were moving so fast because I wasn't moving at all
Honestly the non-Puller buff was pretty irrelevant in that situation lol
cunning urchin
Yeah, they're way too persistent with just FO2 lol. So stressful.
hearty elbow
I'm still not entirely certain how the interaction with overlapping puller gravity wells works
It feels "bad"
lol
That's about as much as I've ascertained
barren otter
Just found out that Cursed Slash doesn't regen health when dashstriking, only normal attacks. And also, if you get rid of cursed slash (anvil), it will also remove the max health penalty, managed to go from 122 health to 359.
hearty elbow
LOL it would be some kind of hilarious if it didn't refund your health though
barren otter
had to buy the anvil for science
hearty elbow
dash striking is so inconsistent mechanically as far as the game assuming it is or not an attack
peak iron
peak iron
lmao, lemme fix it
gleaming current
It does however benefit from attack boons so ig that's it
Also yeah would be even better
peak iron
hearty elbow
Yes attack boons, yes attack chaos mods, No dashed attack combos, No Cursed Slash
Like it's very clearly not a bug, just a balance thing, but it's really badly communicated lol
hearty elbow
Zagreus aspect needs the nerf, agreed
gleaming current
Well, I mean
The only meaningful way to play zag aspect is ME, and it implies lots of dash strikes if anything
peak iron
"Thanks to player feedback, we have decided to remove Zagreus from the game. You now play as a squirt."
gleaming current
That'd be a major buff to Cursed Slash if something, maybe 2 to 1 hp won't be enough to counteract
hearty elbow
You could do stuff like Flurry Slash + Cursed Slash on Zag aspect though. Obv also works on Nemesis but Zag doesn't need to special
It'd be cool if they gave Zag sword the Zag shield treatment and made non-dash strike Attacks have higher base damage
gleaming current
Beefy sword 
hearty elbow
Lol, not like Excalibur grade
bronze sorrel
For anyone who's doing higher heat runs, how are you dealing with the 9 or less minute timer in Elysium? I keep getting slowed up by the giant rooms, great shield exalted and the enormous health bar if I have fight Asterius, esp if I'm not using Stygius or Malphon, which tend to be faster clears for me.
main osprey
#h1-high-heat-strategies is probably a better place to ask :3
hearty elbow
Are you using Jury Summons, Calisthenics Program, or Damage Control?
bronze sorrel
Oh I missed that being a thing, my bad. There are so many new chats recently.
main osprey
Yup xD
hearty elbow
It's a pretty fluid space, and your question is definitely still applicable here
main osprey
Don't stress it lol
bronze sorrel
I've been avoiding those three on most of my high heat runs to answer your question.
hearty elbow
Oh... it might just be a mechanics thing then, honestly. Pretty sure every weapon can do TD1 without any of those boons active if you have a build that works
bronze sorrel
Well, when I say "High" I mean like 10. I'm still working my way up lol
hearty elbow
What are you using?
bronze sorrel
I've been using alot of stuff. Stygius, Malphon and Aegis are my best weapons in terms of both number of clears and clear time I think. I enjoy variety though so I try everything.
hearty elbow
I mean, gimme an example of a recent run where you failed the timer in Elysium, specific aspect and main boons
My suspicion is that your issue is that either what you're using doesn't really synergize that well, or you aren't engaging the enemies as well as you could be.
bronze sorrel
Ok, I think the most recent one was Rail with Hestia. I was running a crit build with Artemis attack and Aphrodite special and the Heart Rend duo boon, with alot of poms on attack to try and get high crits
I know, Hestia is probably the issue on that one.
hearty elbow
Hestia does have trouble with Tight Deadline with Jury Summons in particular, but that build sounds fine. If you need a buffer to help get you through content don't forget that you can use Chaos rooms, mid shops, and Patroclus to shorten the amount of time it takes to get through
bronze sorrel
Its just kinda bad, but I've been experimenting with it.
hearty elbow
Hestia is good
hearty elbow
You're probably getting hit too much :3
bronze sorrel
Probably lol
main osprey
Keep in mind, getting hit slows you down, as well
hearty elbow
It's (one of?) the longest range weapon in the game, so you have the luxury to not get hit if you don't want to most of the time
Also it helps keep you out of danger that you can cancel the reload animation with dash too
bronze sorrel
It seems like its slower in general on dps though and like I can't figure why. Crits don't even seem as big as some I've gotten on other weapons.
hearty elbow
Is it level 5?
bronze sorrel
Yes
hearty elbow
Huh. Yeah, Hestia's base damage is second to only the 3rd hit of Excalibur
It could be that you're trying too hard to get the special to proc Heart Rend. Something you could do instead would be to use Heartbreak Strike, which is way stronger than Deadly, and use Athena/Artemis (with Divine Dash) to get crit with Deadly Reversal
bronze sorrel
Ya, I mostly see crits in the high under 1000 range with it
hearty elbow
That... a lot of damage already lol
gleaming current
Crits on hestia are probably excessive anyway. You'd constantly bump in hp/armor of enemies
bronze sorrel
I mean yes but its only critting 15% of the time
hearty elbow
Exactly. Heartbreak Strike gives a way bigger bonus and is active each time
gleaming current
Well, high crit chance or not, it brings your dps against enemies down a lot compared to heartbeat strike
so yeah
hearty elbow
I don't think that is your issue, for what it's worth. Deadly Strike and Heartbreak Strike should be effectively the same at that heat
Could you maybe record an elysium run later so we could see what's up?
bronze sorrel
Hmmm, haven't recorded myself much before. What all software do you all use for that usually?
hearty elbow
I use Obs
gleaming current
Shadowplay for me
hearty elbow
Doesn't have to be Hestia either, since you mentioned you're having issues in general
And I guess for science you could record the run from beginning to end so we can see how you pick boons and room etc.
bronze sorrel
Ok, I might use Hestia anyhow since I have been wanting to learn it. Unless you all think its better for a control if I use a weapon I'm more comfy on.
hearty elbow
You do you 😛
bronze sorrel
Though I think I'll not use Excalibur, cause I'm pretty sure I could do it with that but it doesn't help me with the other ones.
cunning urchin
On high heat, to beat TD1 or TD2, you just pick 1 Attack or Special boon and put some poms on that to about Lv.5. Some aspects might want 1 particular hammer upgrade on top of that.
That's, like, the core of what you should need.
Everything beyond that is essentially extra.
hearty elbow
He's not talking about (what we typically refer to as ) high heat though. At 10 heat, there is definitely a mechanical issue somewhere that is brickwalling his progress.
cunning urchin
And you don't take just any boon for your Attack or Special, you want whatever gives you a lot of damage or on melee very typically Deglect.
Yes, I've read everything.
That's why I'm saying that's all you should need.
As in, if that's not enough, you're probably wasting time somewhere with your playstyle or with what chambers you pick.
Or sometimes, you just have bad luck.
If you're focusing on that core at lower heats, you'll realize you have a lot of ways to potentially buff that damage output with maybe Duo Boons or a strong call or both in a way that doesn't require you to change your playstyle.
hearty elbow
If I had to take a wild conjecture with Hestia he mentioned Heart Rend with Heartbreak Flourish, so he probably faffed around too much trying to spread weak vs. just shooting them dead. But that's hard to gauge without evidence.
cunning urchin
Yeah.
E.g., Heartbreak Strike on Nemesis is the highest damage boon you can get. Taking any crit boon in any other slot will then open up Heart Rend.
And all you need to do for Heart Rend is spam that Attack button like you have been doing anyway.
hearty elbow
(plus Athena to get crit in the first place)
cunning urchin
You don't change anything, you just buff your highest damage source.
Nemesis already has crit. 
hearty elbow
Oh, nvm still thought we were on Hestia
cunning urchin
Other example, also with Heartbreak Strike but this time on Hestia.
Hestia Attack damage is all you need, but it builds god gauge slowly because of its low attack rate.
So a call on its own will basically not do anything for most of the run.
Now, take Zeus' Aid, though, and aim aggressively for Smoldering Air.
Because you already have a boon from Lady Aphrodite anyway.
You'll have a call every 5 seconds when normally with Hestia you almost never get a call in normal chambers.
You don't need to change anything about your playstyle, but you'll have free calls every 5 seconds to do a ton of free extra damage.
hearty elbow
I haven't actually tried Smoldering Air on Hestia before, but that's a cool tip. Bonus points if you get offered a DIonysus' Aid replacement
Or just take a Zeus boon and take whatever call
gleaming current
Build idea: take zagreus rail, zeus keepsake, go bzzt
never fails (except when it does)
hearty elbow
How close does zag aspect come to reaching the 5/sec cap?
gleaming current
I feel like it's 4 or so shots per second?
Every hit procs for sure tho, even with flurry hammer
hearty elbow
Huh, neat. Yeah I may enjoy that more than Lucy since the range is so much better
random hull
And there's the added safety against projectiles, if I'm not mistaken?
gleaming current
mmm, yeah ig. The rail bullets have a hitbox of a bullet tho, so it can be tricky to actually block something
hearty elbow
Better "tricky" than "doesn't"
gleaming current
That's no doubt
hearty elbow
Same thing goes with Rama special though, I used it to trivialize Witch encounters a lot, even though the arrows are literally lines on the screen
static jacinth
Also, just a side note from a run I had earlier.
It's a bit of a gamble, but if you get attack speed on Zag rail, which isn't too bad there at all, Delta chamber gets pretty attractive a pick.
I anvil'd into it and did not feel bad with it at all.
woeful cargo
does demeter's Nourished Soul work with guan yu's healing spin?
gleaming current
Not enough percentage to actually affect it, and likely it isn't affected anyway since lifesteal works with LC4
woeful cargo
gotchu, thanks
gleaming current
I'd argue you have to be talented to mess up that build
bronze sorrel
Did you make sure, before you died, to tell Zamasu, that you are "not ashamed by, nor do you regret [your] weakness"?
bronze sorrel
Ok, so I have my recording, although, I did actually succeed on the Tight Deadline, but I'll still totally take pointers if anyone wants to watch. I honestly think I just got lucky on the paths offered.
Also, sorry in advance for resolution, not sure why it uploaded so low, I must have missed something in the settings.
inner ivy
i stepped in some lava and lernie got me before he died....
am i a genius of stupidity?
bronze sorrel
Ooof, thats rough.
bronze sorrel
The thing I uploaded or dying to lava in time to give Lernie credit for the kill?
gleaming current
why not both?
Either way, watched a part of the run and it went pretty well indeed... aside from getting flashbacks of world splitter. I can only be sorry for your dealing with it 
Chopping world in half but not actual target hurts everytime
bronze sorrel
Ya, I don't usually take it but I thought I'd give it a go this time :/. Probably should have taken Double-Edge.
Sometimes I make bad decisions when rushing. Probably why I struggle with tight deadline
gleaming current
Might be that as well, yeah. Experimenting is cool, but not when the game shoots you in the head if you shot yourself in the foot
bronze sorrel
My worst one was where I made the mistake of taking Hazard Bomb with Deadly Flourish Lucifer Rail.
literally shooting myself in the foot
turns out 1% of 1600 damage is still 16 damage per hazard bomb i blew up in my face
static jacinth
Gotta dash faster I guess.
unkempt pagoda
use cast to set them off, or pick up flash fire
solid hazel
How do people evaluate Artemis's deadly strike and deadly flourish?
They feel underpowered compared to the other strike and special boons to me
All they provide is damage and they seem to provide less damage than Demeter and Aphro
hearty elbow
The bonus damage % is additive with all other damage %'s so the bonus matters less the further in your run you get. Also consider that a crit is 200% extra damage multiplicative, which is pretty hard to find in this game
Artemis is by far the highest damaging Goddess in "normal" runs
solid hazel
Well it's 200% but it has a low crit chance
So with 15% on deadly strike that is +30% on average
So her common is 20% base +30% from the crit
hearty elbow
That gets better with every other damage source you get though. Typically damage bonuses get worse the more of them you get
solid hazel
About 50% which is hardly impressive if it's only damage
Oh I see the crit part does
hearty elbow
Right, also Artemis opens up both Heart Rend and Deadly Reversal, which is a huge plus in her favor.
solid hazel
Wait is the crit multiplicative or additive?
hearty elbow
Crit is multiplicative damage
solid hazel
Like say you have a normal attack with only deadly strike boon
So a crit damge is (1 +0.2) x3
hearty elbow
Normal attack: 100. Assume Boiling Blood and Privileged Status (50, 40), and a boon that gives 30%
On crit, damage is 100 * (1 + 0.5 + 0.4 + 0.3) * (1 + 2.0)
hearty elbow
Lol that was a flip fop of opinions. It's not broken
hearty elbow
No haha I meant going from "terrible" to "broken"
I figure you'd stop at "okay, that's pretty good" first
solid hazel
I started from underpowered
Lol not terrible even additive it's still better than no boon
hearty elbow
Side note that Heart Rend is its own multplier as well. It's not additive with crit multiplier, it is a 1.5x total damage multiplier if you crit a weak enemy
solid hazel
I mean it synergizes a lot with any + damage, there's not a lot of things that do that
random hull
Since the topic of crits has been brought up, what do you all think about Pressure Points? Yay or nay?
hearty elbow
Pressure Points is fine. Opens up Support Fire too.
solid hazel
Umm i would have said nay before, but new understanding makes me thinknits a bit above average
hearty elbow
Scales global damage, which is unique. So stuff like Hangover, lightning, etc
hearty elbow
Maybe Deadly Reversal
And the Dio/Arty duo
Pressure points lets any damage source crit
I am less certain of Splitting Headache and Deadly Reversal, though I assume they would too
solid hazel
Hmm yeah the crit chance is so low though
It's giving like a multiplicative 6 to 12%... Which is not bad
Especially if it's all damage
hearty elbow
I think it maths out to just under 10% extra damage, multiplicative though, which is a great deal for a side boon, especially when you consider effect damage is very hard to scale
It has a lot of synergy with Hunter's Mark as well
random hull
Hm, I remember putting it to great effect with a Doom build.
hearty elbow
(oh, right, Hunter's Mark, not actually sure how that interacts with all crit either)
solid hazel
A lot of my builds seem to focus stacking bonuses on one move, (ie attack, special or cast)
hearty elbow
Yeah that's the generally advisable approach
solid hazel
So I dunno if global coverage is that good... Granted I'm not expert
cunning urchin
3% crit chance from common Pressure Points is essentially 6% more damage.
hearty elbow
Considering "catch all" boon analogues like Urge to Kill and Sweet Surrender, Pressure Points is insane
solid hazel
Yeah that's what I calculated... Depending on rarity it can go up to +12%
@cunning urchin
random hull
Plus it scales with poms 1:1 - one level equals 1% more crit chance.
hearty elbow
That stops pretty early on I think
random hull
It does?
hearty elbow
I know I was offered a Pom recently and it went from 6->6
solid hazel
Yeah taking a 2% bonus damage for a poom seems weak
turbid plume
pretty sure i was at 8 or 9 last run and got +1 every time
solid hazel
I guess it depends on the alternqtives
That's prolly cuz of the rarity @turbid plume
turbid plume
could be
hearty elbow
Shrug, yeah someone correct me if I'm wrong. I have no evidence, just remembering what I've seen
turbid plume
i think it was the run where i got the "only epic boons" boon from posidon in act 1 xD
hearty elbow
epic is 5% base
turbid plume
didnt mean that it startet at 8, i had 8 or 9 in the end
hearty elbow
Also, @solid hazel, poms scaling something that offers multiplicative benefits is actually pretty unusual. For instance, using a Pom on most attack boons does next to nothing past level 2
solid hazel
That's true and their usually additive
turbid plume
on the topic of crits, any advice on how to build the crit bow?
hearty elbow
Ehh I dislike Flurry Shot in general
unkempt pagoda
point-blank, distant, and perfect shot are secondary options in case you get like, 2 special choices instead lol
turbid plume
so all i need are 1-2 hammers and some rerolls
hearty elbow
Bow is tied with Spear for weapon most reliant on hammers, yeah
You build around the hammers you get, basically
turbid plume
doom for the special?
unkempt pagoda
don't use special, but sure
hearty elbow
Probably one of the wrost specials in the game lol
You'll have plenty to press between dashing and timing power shots
unkempt pagoda
your gameplay loop is dash -> attack, over and over
turbid plume
it works as a shotgun up close (and fav. from behind)
unkempt pagoda
special just roots you to the ground too long, when you're in the thick of combat
hearty elbow
It also doesn't do anything unless you're at point blank, as you've mentioned, but it makes you vulnerable for so long that it's kind of moot
It's pretty solid with Charged Volley and Relentless/Consecutive though.
turbid plume
ok i guess it loses its appeal with FO3 and such
unkempt pagoda
if you have something like doom, it can be okay if you're doing it while safe occasionally
but zag bow should generally just be dash - > attack
cunning urchin
Poms should never give +0. They always have some minimum value they will give.
solid hazel
I think doom special with zag bow might be one of its few AOE options
unkempt pagoda
and you want artemis dash or a chaos lunge boon, if you can
solid hazel
Although if you have enough single target damage you may not need aoe
hearty elbow
Zag bow in intrinsically AoE
unkempt pagoda
chain + triple is great crowd control (chain also has some aiming forgiveness)
solid hazel
Ywah but it's damage sucks...
cunning urchin
I think the minimum pom bonus for Pressure Points is less than 1%, though.
unkempt pagoda
each arrow can bounce onto an enemy, so it's potentially 3x damage per enemy
cunning urchin
Not sure. I don't usually put poms on it lol.
turbid plume
look at that , just started a run and got hammer as first boon and epic attack as second
solid hazel
Yeah i do take that boon a lot @unkempt pagoda and again cuz bow seems to have bad AOE options
unkempt pagoda
(interestingly, this means chain + triple is better at single target than twin, if you're near a wall)
solid hazel
Hammer option*
cunning urchin
Best AOE for bow is: Heartbreak Strike + a good call + Smoldering Air.
turbid plume
i am not good enough to trigger dash attack on bow very reliably , or maybe i dont understand it
hearty elbow
Do you mean power shot or...
cunning urchin
You just hold Attack immediately after a dash.
hearty elbow
You can literally press them at the same time
cunning urchin
That works too, yeah.
solid hazel
The point I'm trying to make is thr doom special is relatively accessible from the beginning
cunning urchin
You can just practice on Skelly.
solid hazel
If you see ares boon you have a good chance of getting it first time
And it's decent AOE where all the other things brought up are much harder to get
hearty elbow
Battle Rage is the option you should take 10000% of the time in that situation
turbid plume
i did practice on skelly , thats how i am 100% sure from all the weapons the bow dash attack is more hit than miss for me
hearty elbow
Battle Rage on Bow is insaaaannee
cunning urchin
Even the best bow players don't get a power shot every time, so don't feel too bad if you don't. You'll get better with practice.
solid hazel
I always suspected battle rage is good, but things are so hectic I can't verify it in the heat of battle haha
hearty elbow
It's not universally good. But you don't lose the buff (unless you special lol), and Bow only has one attack it wants to use
hearty elbow
Shrug. play Chiron then
hearty elbow
You get to attack in between*
solid hazel
A bit of an aside, but it also seems like a lot of the aspects are bad until leveled up
hearty elbow
Yeah
solid hazel
Like Chiron and chaos are all unimpressive at lvl 1
turbid plume
well chaos is still better than default on lvl1 or what
solid hazel
Seems like questionable game design, a player tries it at lvl1 cuz it's all the titan blood they can afford, and then they decide it's bad and never play it again
hearty elbow
People oversell how difficult it is to get Titan Blood. Depending on how aggressive you want to be you can get 2-4 per run
(aggressive meaning using Golden Touch, or trading in your Ambrosia)
solid hazel
I mean that's assuming you're winning new heat levels
turbid plume
as someone who struggles with titan blood i disagree xD
solid hazel
After my first win, I was only winning around 20% of the time
Often trying the same heat level multiple times and gaining no titans blood
hearty elbow
Also, you can still try weapons, if you quit out of the game in the courtyard it keeps your temp save from inside your room
So you can get a refund that way
main osprey
I dunno, I feel like I was able to recognize that while they were bad at level 1, they would do well at higher levels, which feels appropriate
I never felt gimped for spending Blood
solid hazel
I definitely did after skelly didn't actually die for thr level 5 zag sword haha
hearty elbow
That being said I'm almost 300 hours in and I still don't have every weapon maxed, but that's mostly because I got the ones I wanted and my goals shifted
solid hazel
I was talking about the skelly quest. Where in the current patch you have to get a lvl 5 zag sword to complete
For like not much reward
And the zag sword is pretty boring
I felt gimped out of titans blood there
hearty elbow
Zag sword is poo
Though the prophecy tells you what you will earn
You did that of your own volition
solid hazel
Ouch I feel victim blamed
hearty elbow
Lmao no one forced you to put the blood in the poo sword
solid hazel
I'm just messing... But i was hoping for a little more story about skelly
And all I got was trollolol
turbid plume
well thats part of the story you wanted to progress .. . sooo
solid hazel
@turbid plume once the game clicked for me I started winning heat runs a lot more and titans blood wasn't that hard to get
But when I was struggling to win at all, it was a super precious resource
And like I feel like the game discourages experimenting with weapon aspects for people who aren't winning heat runs
hearty elbow
It kind of works out, because at the point and time where you can't get Blood because you're having difficulty clearing the game, a new weapon probably won't do that much for you (past the base forms of each weapon)
solid hazel
Umm maybe some of them are way better than base form though
hearty elbow
Bow, Fist, Rail are all fine in base form
solid hazel
Well that's just half of them
hearty elbow
Yeah. Kind of just wished the game would prod you more heavily towards using Chaos aspect as a learning and farming tool for new players
Though they probably don't want to give players the whiplash of "oh wait, I can take damage on other weapon aspects? Trash"
main osprey
Though they probably don't want to give players the whiplash of "oh wait, I can take damage on other weapon aspects? Trash"
@hearty elbow
Me after doing high heat with Chaos, then trying the same with any of the other weapons
hearty elbow
Lol, right? I remember doing 40 yolo with Chaos and thinking "I don't get it. What's the big deal?"
And then getting my teeth kicked in by every other weapon I tried it with
Highest heat is hard no matter what though. You need to actually git gud with your weapon to succeed, so it's not permanently broken
hearty elbow
LOL
solid hazel
Do bounties stop at some heat lvl in the current patch?
hearty elbow
20 or 25 in hell mode
gleaming current
Pfft
Mine are
40
1
2
1
0
11
solid hazel
Why is it different in hell mode? Do things cost mor diamonds/titans blood?
Or just like an incentive for playing higher difficulty
hearty elbow
you have to play at 5 heat in hell mode
solid hazel
Oh I see
It's weird to me that there's a hell mode at all to be honest
It's like the heat mechanic already is very high resolution for difficulty management
And then on top of that there's this much more discreet mode
static jacinth
It's pretty pointless honestly.
hearty elbow
I'm more or less in agreement with you. IT doesn't add much
hearty elbow
People need their "hard mode" or their britches get itchy
solid hazel
Well I can't pretend my self worth isn't intricately tied to my success in video games
hearty elbow
Lol, point being though Hades as a game is hard mode. Like, "Hard Mode, the Game"
Not to say the game is brutally difficult, but that Hard Mode is its core game loop mechanic
solid hazel
It's not easy... I thought I was pretty good at action games and Hades definitely beat me up a lot
hearty elbow
I should rephrase that. The game is as brutally difficult as you want it to be.
gleaming current
^
solid hazel
Yeah no idea which modifiers those are haha
That's okay you don't need to clarify thougj
I can figure it out if I wanted to put the effort in
hearty elbow
Routine Inspection 4 gets rid of your entire mirror, namely your extra dashes, and your additional lives. TIght Deadline 2 is the 7m timer, Jury Summons 3 is 60% more doods, Calisthenics Program 2 is 30% more health and armor, Damage Control 2 is 2 invulnerable hearts per enmey.
solid hazel
Well okay thanks for typing it out 👍
hearty elbow
You get used to it haha
53 is the current record, held by Chaos and Nemesis aspects
solid hazel
My first lambent run at like heat level 1....i decided that jury summons was the easiest one to win with
And later I was like... Uhh that was dumb
narrow rampart
Umm
How does Icy Flare interact with Demeter's other boons when using Beowulf?
Namely, Glacial Glare, the one that makes cast longer and inflict chill?
Also, if I took Poseidon's cast with Beowulf, would I still be able to get Blizzard Shot with it?
main osprey
Not certain about Blizz shot, don't think Glare will even show up
serene phoenix
what's the deal with the rats and their poison? sometimes I stand in it and get poisoned, sometimes I don't
how does it work lol
narrow rampart
Not certain about Blizz shot, don't think Glare will even show up
that's so lame
static jacinth
Doesn't Icy Flare slow by default?
unkempt pagoda
^
icy flare chills in an area anyways
hot take: electric flare should've done something like spark() from transistor
random hull
Rat poison doesn't poison if you dash through it, or merely stand on its edge. The globs can also be deflected. I'm not sure if deflected poison can harm you, because it looks exactly the same as the regular one, but it does harm enemies.
static jacinth
Deflecting things really needs a lot more visual clarity.
Deflected bombs from Theseus and Styx look exactly the same too.
random hull
There is a very, very subtle color change with deflected Witch projectiles. I wonder why a change was made but then in such a difficult to see manner.
static jacinth
I guess because it's pretty hard to rework all the frames of animation in this game.
Since each one is hand drawn.
But still, would be appreciated if they turned green or something.
livid dew
which bow synergizes with aphro the best. want to do some aphro runs but also want to do some bow runs but don't know what to pick
hearty elbow
all of them? lol
livid dew
fair enough
i don't use zagarus bow that much i think ill just do aphro attack with that and see how often i land a crit
narrow rampart
My favourite bow for Aphro builds is aspect of Chiron
With Dio on the special, Aphro on Attack
hearty elbow
yeah that def works
narrow rampart
and HOPE for the Duo boon
although that build slaps with or without the duo boon tbh
narrow rampart
I've come to the realization that I vehemently dislike Beowulf
As far as I can tell, it doesn't provide that big a boost in cast damage (dunno if the flares deal more damage than normal shots)
But so far the stuff I've tried it with has been subpar at best
The cast loses its ranged edge
Ares cast is especially disappointing
Deals more damage per spin, but the cast itself lasts shorter
Which deminishes the usefulness of Ares's legendary by a lot
Best way to play it I found was to get that one hammer upgrade that makes bull rush ranged, which just turns the weapon into a slower Hera that penalises you with extra damage received
Idk, just hella underwhelming to me, especially since cast aspects are my favourites
livid dew
ill try your build twi, i did a similar build with posedion attack, zeus special and hope to get the duo to pump the attack power
clever matrix
anyone know if parting shot benefits/works on athena's cast
parting shot is the athena/aphrodite duo boon, where your cast benefits from backstab damage bonuses? but since i use it to deflect i feel like it wouldn't be beneficial
turbid needle
Yes, it affects all Casts (except probably Trippy Shot and Slicing Shot).
clever matrix
oh so your cast doesn't need to be backstabbing to be getting that damage bonus?
turbid needle
It does.
But you need to backstab.
Because it's a Backstab damage bonus, not a Cast damage bonus.
clever matrix
yeah I don't think it'd work since I use the athena cast to deflect attacks and the enemy won't be getting backstabbed by that cast
turbid needle
Yes, by intentionally throwing the Cast at the front of enemies you would not benefit from the bonus.
But the bonus would work if you ever used it correctly.
Or rather, as intended.
clever matrix
Ok, so I'm not getting that duo boon bc I won't be doing that often yeah
iron shale
@narrow rampart tbh best thing about it is the chonky special
barren otter
Thoughts on Ruthless Reflex? At first I thought having only one dash makes the game a lot harder, but now that I've become better at the game, I think it's worth sacrificing one dash for so much extra damage (and I've seen a lot of dodges with it too). Unless on high heat, where some things are really hard to avoid with 1 dash (like chariots with benefits package and forced overtime)
random hull
I like it personally. That's coming from a MonHun player, where evading at the last moment is sort of second nature, so I can often pull off I-frames. Plus, as you said, both the extra damage and dodge chance are substantial. However, things get difficult when up against many attacks at once, and I often find myself taking damage in such scenarios. That doesn't mean I would have fared better with Greater Reflex in the same situation.
worn sand
I started picking Ruthless reflex as my standard to force myself to git gud & stop relying on dash spam
Then half the runs Hermes offers me 2-3 extra dashes
Does anyone have a fun Guan Yu build to recommend? I just realised I dont think i’ve touched that aspect for several months
gleaming current
All i remember is Charged Skewer 
static jacinth
Toss spears, gain victory.
Though I guess serrated edge is a good alternate if you like stabby stab stab.
earnest quartz
is it just me or do fists have pretty mediocre dps
none of the hammers seem to help it that much, its my second slowest weapon after bow
i havent tried many of the special hammers, are they any good?
static jacinth
Fists are pretty strong once you get the hang of things.
They apply status quickly if you go for that, or can be quite safe with Athena attack and then you use special and cast for the biggest damage.
They also charge up your god gauge very quickly.
Special hammers are nice. I like the flying kick.
earnest quartz
i feel like fists are strong at base but doesnt scale with hammers as much
other weapons have hammers that double their dps output or more. like dash strike for sword and spear or charged specials for spear and beowulf or spread fire
bow can get like 4x the original dps with double shot and flurry shot
fist hammers only marginally improve it?
charred pilot
I cannot win any games with Fists no matter how hard I try.
It feels severely underpowered but that's might just be me.
keen kiln
I feel that way when ever I pick up the spear
Some weapon just don't feel like they're for you
charred pilot
It's somewhat of a good thing because it shows a diverse set of personalities for the weapons.
earnest quartz
im sure fists are good weapons for clearing, but talking just numbers wise
it doesnt feel like it has the dps that other weapons can get
charred pilot
The Risk to Reward factor is always something to take into account,
It's risk is way higher than almost any other weapon because there is no distance between you and the enemies
static jacinth
But they have a very fast combo, which is good for applying status effects, and the special hits pretty hard.
And some strats without status effects just hit very hard, very quick.
With base Zagreus fists getting 15% extra attack speed, they get quite a good DPS.
untold vortex
the attack speed doesn't seem bugged to me
cunning urchin
Attack speed on Zagreus Aspect works just fine.
earnest quartz
cool guess they fixed it
cunning urchin
It wasn't bugged to begin with.
earnest quartz
wasnt it?
it felt the same when you tried on skelly
maybe it only worked in a run
yep i tested it now it works fine
hearty elbow
Breaching Cross is insane. It makes it so you can always stun lock elites. Actually I like basically all of the attack hammers for one reason or another. Even Rolling Knuckle offers a pretty smooth experience with Demeter aspect.
cunning urchin
Rolling Knuckle used to be my favorite hammer in Nighty Night. It's a lot weaker now.
hearty elbow
What was the change?
cunning urchin
There's a big gap after the Dash-Strike that's added after the 5-hit combo now.
You could just hold down Attack for infinite combos before.
But now there's a gap for them to get out of stunlock. So you still have to dash to continue your combo.
hearty elbow
It's definitely the weakest one now, but it still does let you get an empowered special in 2 combos, which is solid.
hearty elbow
Yeah. But to my point before, Malphon's hammers are definitely not lacking. There are maybe 2 special hammers that are kinda meh? Maybe I just haven't found a use for Quake Cutter yet, and Kinetic Launcher is pretty bad without Demeter aspect
cunning urchin
It gives you +15 damage on your Dash-Attacks, so if you're already building for that, it's quite nice.
@neon bramble likes Kinetic Launcher. It's not for me, but that's probably just playstyle.
Quake Cutter is just . . . bad.
hearty elbow
Oh it's definitely my favorite Hammer period. But only on Demeter. The charge time isn't really worth it on anything else.
cunning urchin
With the animation as it is now, Quake Cutter needs to do way more damage than Explosive Upper to be an interesting option.
High risk, high reward.
Wait for that slow animation, but you're rewarded with an actual earthquake amounts of damage.
hearty elbow
40 damage. plip
earnest quartz
yeah i feel like breaching cross is probably the best malphon hammer. rolling knuckle is ok but it just seems really lackluster compared to sword and spear dash strike hammers?
random hull
It should be less Hadouken and more Kamehameha.
earnest quartz
60% additive damage is so bad compared to hitting multiple times
and you need to do the full 5hit for another dash strike
gleaming current
hey, tbf earthquake damage on creatures staying in plain field isn't that large at all
hearty elbow
I mentioned it's probably the worst attack Hammer on Malphon, but it lets you stun lock things more consistently and it gives you a special boost every 2 combos with Demeter
earnest quartz
what other good attack hammers are there?
hearty elbow
Malphon doesn't really have the stupid peaks of Charged Flight with regards to hammers, but the base weapon is so good that would be nonsense anyway.
Every other one? Malphon is just a good weapon by itself. It doesn't need that much help, so even taking Colossus Knuckle to give yourself permanent 30% mitigation and the guarantee that you'll be able to execute your gameplan is excellent.
cunning urchin
The only bad hammer is Quake Cutter, and it doesn't actually hurt you, it just doesn't do anything.
The best way to use Quake Cutter is to pretend you didn't get a hammer yet.
hearty elbow
Just like most Sword hammers!
earnest quartz
yeah i agree with malphon being very good at base, just that i dont know how to get its dps to match the other weapons when fully built
cunning urchin
Divine Strike + Hunter Dash > Deadly Reversal + Support Fire.
Curse of Agony + Divine Dash > Merciful End.
hearty elbow
It's the fastest weapon in the game with 0 hammers with Merciful End.
cunning urchin
Lightning Strike + anything.
earnest quartz
i had a heart rend + deadly reversal run just now and still only managed 11:41
cunning urchin
Add in Heartbreak Flourish or Deadly Flourish for Demeter Aspect.
earnest quartz
oh ive been wanting to try mercifel end on it
hearty elbow
You could pick quake hammer twice and still crush your record lol
gleaming current
Just like most Sword hammers!
ignoring world chopper, flurry slash, cursed slash and snap nova is pretty complex
valid locust
I got to do some hilarious big biy damage with world chopper
hearty elbow
Can't tell how sarcastic that was lol. Those hammers all come with massive asterisks. Like Thicc asterisks.
valid locust
That base damage got out of control really fast.
cunning urchin
Cursed Slash is good. Snap Nova is good.
gleaming current
They are good or sometimes not, but you can't really pretend you didn't pick them up
cunning urchin
You can if you do a dash-only run.
hearty elbow
Ohh you meant ignore as in when you pick them. Kk
gleaming current
dash only on nemesis
hearty elbow
I thought you meant ignore as in not picking them, which is super easy lol
earnest quartz
how do you build around explosive cutter? i heard dash strike damage works on it since its dash upper?
cunning urchin
Hunter Dash and either Deadly Flourish or Heartbreak Flourish, ideally.
hearty elbow
Isn't explosive upper just good on its own too?
cunning urchin
It is.
It's additive with boons, anyway.
Like anything that isn't "Charged", as far as I've found.
earnest quartz
i should try that and merciful end build later then
cunning urchin
Or a flat damage change.
hearty elbow
Yeah that was my saddening realization a couple of days ago
cunning urchin
I think @raw violet holds the record for speedruns with Malphon, so if you want to go fast on low heats, he'll surely have some tips for you.
gleaming current
"hulk smash"
hearty elbow
Though with some builds, Breaching Cross' bonus is so high it may as well be multiplicative.
cunning urchin
Breaching Cross, to be honest, is great as a second hammer pick-up or if the other options aren't as good. I wouldn't look for a seed with it.
It does too little for boss fights.
Well, I'm probably biased because I've been playing with RI3 so much lately lol.
gleaming current
Specific reason for it to be second hammer is that you get it when entering elysium, which is notorious for armored foes
cunning urchin
Well, anywhere with BP2 really it's great.
Also minibosses.
But it won't help you much vs Puller.
hearty elbow
Power Couple gets embarrassed by that hammer
cunning urchin
Long Knuckle helps with Puller and everything else.
Explosive Upper gives you burst damage vs elites and bosses alike.
valid locust
Explosive Upper looks awesome with demeter gloves.
cunning urchin
It is.
cunning urchin
But the buffed Uppercut with Demeter Aspect locks you in place for quite a long time.
valid locust
Havent tried demeter on FO2
Nyaa, you are playing on an alien world compared to us.
cunning urchin
You can lose a run for doing a buffed Uppercut at the wrong place and time.
hearty elbow
Demeter probably best all around aspect.
valid locust
😂 😂 😂
cunning urchin
I think Zagreus Aspect is the best.
hearty elbow
For fist*
valid locust
Zagreus locks you in to plume, dont it?
hearty elbow
At very high heat I agree, I've been using it exclusively for 40+
cunning urchin
Hard to beat the simplicity of a strong Attack build with free Dodge chance.
raw violet
I actually no longer have the fastest fist time, the current fastest fist time is a merciful end build that probably could've been even faster if they used Zag fist instead of demeter, tbh
and had extra dashes
gleaming current
2 hermes boons for free surely is stonks moment
cunning urchin
Nah, there's no need for Lambent Plume on it. You already have 15% Dodge Chance. That's plenty.
By the end of a run, that's usually like a free 45~50 max HP. That's similar to Excalibur.
raw violet
but i guess I do have the fastest fist time if you want to see the full demeter kit used
cunning urchin
Although, Excalibur will give you that +50 HP for the whole run.
hearty elbow
Lambent Plume will rarely mitigate the amount of damage Acorn will anyway, unless you're explicitly looking to get hit for some reason.
gleaming current
It's actually probably more in case of dodges, because it saves you from overkills and debuffs as well
hearty elbow
EM3 is an exception because there are a lot of things that hit multiple times.
gleaming current
Lambent Plume usually isn't worth for a serious run yes
Same for pierced butterfly. Which is p sad given both encourage professional gameplay
One to go fast, another to go flawless
(time to put up a feedback that you should be able to save the bonuses you accumulated from these items, even if at the cost of gain nerf)
earnest quartz
@raw violet in your video with fists whats the attack rotation that youre doing?
dashstrikex2 and special?
you can dashstrike twice and still pull a dash upper?
green plover
At this point, I might as well as refer the wiki to try and fish out legendaries. It's getting really difficult to get whatever are remaining by luck.
random hull
Which are you missing?
green plover
I think Artemis and Demeter.
And Hermes too.
I'll have to check in-game which ones are missing and work towards them accordingly with some info from the wiki.
random hull
Be mindful of Hermes, you need to switch mirror talents for his legendaries.
But I guess you already gleaned that from the wiki.
void fjord
I dont think you have to since they correspondingly change according to it im pretty sure
random hull
It's been a while since I had to deal with the prophecies (won most of them before many boons were added), but as far as I know Bad News and Greater Recall are matched with Stygian Soul and Infernal Soul, and you would need both to get the prophecy?
void fjord
his legendary descriptions || with infernal soul your cast returns to you immediately after dropping|| the other one || Your cast does more damage by 50% to foes when they have no cast in them ||
maybe
well i dont feel like starting a new save and finding out
well until 1.0 release
earnest ravine
They aare tied to each of the mirror talents, yeah
Since the former's like, useless with Infernal Soul, they gave an equivalently good one unique to it. which stinks because Bad News wold be super good even on Stygian
cunning urchin
That's the one. https://docs.google.com/document/d/137Vqe-8fvStMJ_HMlBKWwq3SVdoOED0lOpBBSmgGwtQ/edit?usp=sharing
Hope that helps!
solid hazel
Are you guys using eHP as the metric for evaluating dodge?
Cuz if you do, you'll see that dodge gets better the more you have.
Going from 0% to 1% is not the same as going from 50% to 51%
gleaming current
I use hp/(1-dodge chance)
solid hazel
Yeah that's the correct way to do it
I mean it seems like to me if you're going to use dodge at all you might as well go all in
If you get like 50% dodge that's doubling all your ehp
If you get to 67% that's triple your ehp
That seems like a lot more than acorn can give
cunning urchin
Acorn works no matter with how much HP you go into the fight.
solid hazel
I mean that's true... It depends how. Much you expect to go in with
If you go in with 1 hp obviously dodge is inferior
cunning urchin
At high heat, you can go into a boss fight with 60 HP and only base Stubborn Defiance.
That's actually fairly common.
solid hazel
Yeah but the dodge is helping you the entire run also
cunning urchin
It is.
solid hazel
So you would probably have more hp going into the boss with dodge
cunning urchin
I know Manthro gave up on Lambent Plume at around 40+ because it wasn't working out for them.
Heat, that is.
solid hazel
It probably depends how much you can activate it and how much it costs to activate it as well
Cuz you might take damage trying to get the fast clear time
But I dunno. Just wanted to point out that on paper it seems like thr strongest defensive option
Doesn't necessarily mean it is in practice if the prereqs are overly punishing
random hull
I'm not the type to take the plume, not because I think it's bad, simply because I prefer flexibility. I wouldn't sleep on dodge, though. I take it everytime Hermes offers it. And now I try to lean more into Smoldering Air and try to get Second Wind.
solid hazel
Ywah that's an insane combo
Smoldering air and second wind is probably close to doubling your eHP by itself
I mean how high can you with stacked dodge?
dry ember
there is a cap
solid hazel
What is it?
solid hazel
I mean that's still insane haha
At 80% you're 5x your hp
So even at like 60 hp and one stubborn defiance. Let's say that's about 130 base hp
80% dodge would turn that into 650 ehp
Maybe there is a hidden dodge cap that makes it much worse though... Cant seem to find mich
Otherwise I would think dodge would be really good at high heat based on maths
gleaming current
Well, it's not that simple either
Dodge chances are all multiplicative
solid hazel
Oh that makes a big difference
gleaming current
So getting two times 15 is not 30 but only 27.75
solid hazel
Are you sure, that's such an unintuitive way for the calc to work haha
gleaming current
It's simpler when you just apply it to chance to get hit
solid hazel
Like is crit chance also multiplicative the?
gleaming current
Crit chances are additive iirc
All defensive stats are multiplicative to avoid 100% scenarios or exponential scaling
solid hazel
Ah I see...yeah that's make dodge back down to like reasonable levels
It also makes the calculation way more difficult
gleaming current
Well, for example above
Double 15% dodge would be: 1/0.85/0.85=0.7225 chance to get hit
Not too hard to calc given there are like 4 dodge sources at best usually
gleaming current
Plume, zag fists, greater dodge, second wind is what i recall
solid hazel
Lambent, greater dodge, second wind, zag fist, and uhh blanking haha
cunning urchin
I don't think we've seen evidence either way that dodge chance is multiplicative or additive—or that there's a cap, for that matter.
cunning urchin
Indeed.
solid hazel
Ywah where are you getting this from @gleaming current
random hull
The fifth source is Ruthless Reflex.
solid hazel
The defensive being multiplicative vs offensive addtive
gleaming current
Offense additive (most sources that is) was confirmed, same went for defensive i think?
cunning urchin
Damage reduction boons are multiplicative, so suspecting that dodge chance is multiplicative isn't too far off, at least.
gleaming current
Yeah that's what i based that on
cunning urchin
It's a good hypothesis.
gleaming current
Wouldn't really make sense to change one system and not another
Also replying to above, ruthless reflex indeed, so 5
cunning urchin
The main problem with Dodge used to be that Hades's spin attack in particular was undodgeable. But that's no longer the case. You can dodge it now.
solid hazel
Lol I dunno... It's not like the programmers always use a consistency in their calcs
I play monster hunter world and their defense is multiplicative but elemental resist is additive
Also defense applies to elemental damage as well
It makes theory crafting so painful cuz everything is so inconsistent haha
cunning urchin
Somewhere there's a SGG designer reading all this speculation, smugly smiling to themself.
"Haha, these idiots fans will never figure it out."
solid hazel
Well st least it's distracting me from work haha
gleaming current
Time for 100% dodge run
Heroic greater dodge, plume, second wind, smoldering air, mmmmmmmmm
cunning urchin
The truth is the devs are spying on our runs and have a switch that determines if we dodge or not. The actual numbers do nothing. 
random hull
What I also wonder about is whether dodge is true RNG, or entropy-based like in path of exile.
solid hazel
What's entropy based?
random hull
Too complicated to describe with my own words, so let me quote that.
solid hazel
Integrate the partition function with respect to... Temperature?
Lol it's been a while fornme
gleaming current
Chaotic movement, more so
cunning urchin
Yes. That's it.
Temperature.
Higher heat = better dodge chance.
Asphodel = good dodge chance.
Hades fight = bad dodge chance.
Because of the snow.
random hull
Evasion does not calculate the chance of each hit independently. Instead, it uses a system of "entropy" to ensure that enemies won't get long strings of hits or misses by chance.[2] To summarize, these are the calculation steps in each attack:
If it is the first time an entity is attacked, or if the time between the last attack and this one is larger than 6 seconds, randomise the entropy from 0–99.
Calculate chance to hit of the attacker using the above formula, and add this integer to the entropy counter.
If this is 100 or greater, the check counts as a hit. Subtract 100 from the entropy counter. Otherwise it is a miss and the entropy counter doesn't change.
A critical hit is evaded on a separate random roll and will not affect this entropy value.
As a result, if a player has a 1 in N chance to be hit, then the player will be hit exactly once for every N consecutive attacks. This eliminates all possibilities of lucky and/or unlucky streaks. It is still based on chance because of the entropy counter's randomization in the first step. Note that if multiple mobs are attacking one character, all of the mobs' attacks share the same entropy counter.[3] Also note that the chance to evade calculation on the character page is based on the average accuracy of a monster at the player's level.
static jacinth
Basically it's slightly weighted rng that tries to force the average over a short period as well as a long period.
random hull
Yes, so to speak.
Based on some people complaining about bad streaks, I doubt it is the case.
solid hazel
I see the randomness is just the order in which you get misses and hits
But it forces the average over the smallest possible time frame
cunning urchin
People would complain about bad streaks either way.
solid hazel
Lol why did they pick entropy as the analogy
static jacinth
Who has time to notice bad streaks in -hades-.
solid hazel
It sounds cool?