did you just say lasting consequences isn't painful
#h1-builds-and-combat
frank tide
static jacinth
Extreme Measures 1 is pretty free. You get one tougher fight and the rest of the run is the same as in no heat.
dry ember
@neon bramble https://www.twitch.tv/videos/682926363?t=01h02m08s
despite being a speedrun format, this run is unseeded unrouted
and showcase just how strong phalanx shot really is
gleaming current
Tbh one gripe with phalanx is that it applies Boiling Blood slower
Most of the time it's not an issue though
hearty elbow
LC1 is not noticeable
broken nexus
I haven't tried lasting consequences yet - could try that I guess - I tended to go extreme measures, convenience fee, and sometimes approval process. Also am mostly now trying to focus on 2 gods, 3 max, rather than taking every boon I see - is that right?
hearty elbow
The pacts do not scale linearly lol. EM1 is nothing, EM2 is annoying, EM3 will wreck you over and over and over again
dry ember
how much hear are you attempting?
broken nexus
heat 3
dry ember
I think there are better options before going to lasting consequences
give Tight Deadline 1 a shot
green plover
EM2 will suffice for heat 3.
dry ember
that's 2 heat
hearty elbow
Don't do Convenience Fee or Approval Process that early. They make runs a lot less consistent
dry ember
also I'll take 1 point in Hard Labor before Lasting Consequences
pseudo stream
woo, got him! thanks all ❤️
dry ember
❤️
green plover
And I really didn't feel much trouble with EM2 Hydra.
trail otter
well done Paul!!
hearty elbow
I think MM is barely noticeable in isolation without HL, FO, etc.
static jacinth
Also Heightened Security isn't too bad. It will, on ocassion, one shot you though.
green plover
In some cases it rather got easier for me (looking at you, spawny boios).
static jacinth
As you step into a saw friend in Styx for 150 damage.
hearty elbow
HS makes Styx and Hades a lot harder, so probably not the best since you're probably still learning how to get through those zones efficiently at that point
gleaming current
HL impacts boss fights a lot, so it may not be favored over LC sometimes
Saws are "only" 100 dmg btw
trail otter
Heightend security has made me loose 1 year off my live from sheer stress when i get close too a spike trap
static jacinth
Sorry, 150 is for grabby hands in the Dad fight right?
gleaming current
Byeah
broken nexus
This is great thanks anyone - any thoughts on Convenience Fee - I always take that one
cunning urchin
In my opinion, rather than recommending this or that pact to you at 3 heat, I would say just focus on leveling up your keepsakes and stuff while trying to clear with each of the pacts at least once for the prophecy. That way you'll make some progress that will help you clear more easily, and you'll get to learn how all the different pacts affect your run and how to deal with it.
hearty elbow
@trail otter Try creating your own deathtrap with Styx saws in Arhur's Hallowed Ground
static jacinth
That's also a good point. It's a lot of titan's blood.
I don't like Conveniance fee personally, but that's mostly because as I climb heat, I'm trying to bank up 1500 gold for the Styx shop, so I can buy a titan's blood.
trail otter
Man Nyaanyaa taught me today that Hallowed ground deactivates traps
and ive never felt so happy in my life
cunning urchin
lol
dry ember
the more you learn
green plover
CF1 hasn't been that much of an issue, but, it depends on how you manage your resources.
cunning urchin
Excalibur is really good.
hearty elbow
Lmao, yeah. But it also allows saws to stack up in a solid line of death, which is hilarious, if you don't touch it
dry ember
CF allows me to save up for luxury items in Styx
gleaming current
CF2 is harsh but also can teach you treat your money well
broken nexus
Thanks - final question if I'm levelling up weapons is there a consensus about which aspects are best to learn with??
dry ember
take CF2
static jacinth
Whichever you enjoy the most.
hearty elbow
When I started out every time I managed to scrounge 1500 it was a diamond
I legit thought it was a trigger
Upon entering Styx with more than 1500 gold
static jacinth
A diamond is like half a titan's blood in spirit.
cunning urchin
@trail otter did you see Wriste13's and Haelian's blindfolded run with Excalibur? You should check that out when you have some time, it's a lot of fun.
green plover
If you want the really easy route, I'll recommend maxing out Chaos Shield aspect.
broken nexus
well I guess each has its own playstyle - because I am not a natural gamer I tend to focus on range weapons I suppose as when I get close I tend to get rekt by bosses
green plover
Otherwise it's what appeals to you the most.
dry ember
just rotate based on dark thirst
trail otter
i havent. but im planning on. Especialy now that it was recomended
static jacinth
Well if you want to learn to use the weapons better... Going with the bare bones aspects is fine.
hearty elbow
Range is... not great in this game. Enemies are too good at gap closing, and projectile spammers need to be dealt with asap vs. just dodging their stuff indefinitely.
gleaming current
Also styx for special claustrophobia
hearty elbow
Obviously the concept of range is good, but the tradeoffs with the aspects available errs a lot more towards close to midrange
dry ember
my recommendation: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/336283305907322880/728671326859952218/tierlist-generated-at-tierlists.com.png
green plover
Well, keep in mind that sometimes Dark Thirst likes to stay only with two-three weapons.
cunning urchin
because I am not a natural gamer I tend to focus on range weapons I suppose as when I get close I tend to get rekt by bosses
Well, if you want to learn how to deal with enemies when you're close, melee weapons would very naturally give you the most practice with that.
But if you want to learn how to use Exagryph, practice with Exagryph.
static jacinth
For learning each weapon, I'd say Nemesis for Stygius, Zagreus for the Spear, Shield, Fists, Bow and Rail. Could do Hades for spear if you want to get used to mixing in spin attacks more. Demeter for fists will teach you to mind your special better.
Those aspecst are the best for a 'normal' playstyle with the weapon.
hearty elbow
@dry ember Lol, there is no way Rama is the worst bow aspect. In that every bow aspect is trash, and Rama is serviceable with some builds
static jacinth
I like Rama a lot. Though I'm weird and like the bow in general.
forest marsh
I'm a fan of Rama
hearty elbow
Zag Sword is only at D because Nemesis exists
gleaming current
Doubtful
dry ember
well that's my list, I'm sure it's not objectively true
static jacinth
But yeah, what I wrote up there is what I'd consider the best aspects for learning how to use the weapons. Rather than the 'strongest' aspects.
neon bramble
I don't see why anyone would use Zag aspect when nemesis is available
trail otter
no you posted a list. this has too be your objective opinions 😛
dry ember
but in some very vague sense, that tier list has some truth to it
rama is good, it takes some getting used to
broken nexus
Just to say thanks everyone - really appreciate the help
dry ember
and somewhat build dependent
neon bramble
Zag shield is better than Zeus shield imo,especially after the buff it got
dry ember
that's why it's D tier
neon bramble
But just my opinion
broken berry
My man Talos has been done dirty in D tier D:
gleaming current
Because no tier lists can be objectively true. the very reason people play with different aspects is that everyone approaches task differently and has their strong/weak sides which weapons can accommodate to more or less 
hearty elbow
Rama is not broken. It's middle of the ground at best. But the other bows are hilariously bad.
dry ember
actually Doom Spec Zeus shield recently proved to be a complete powerhouse
neon bramble
Talos is easily bottom tier fist aspect in relation to Zag and Demeter
dry ember
if you get merc end I dare say it's better than chaos
neon bramble
But not D tier in of itself
hearty elbow
Also, the general consensus is that "every fist aspect is viable" should probably be reflected by them being around the same placing
There is no best one
dry ember
by the way you can make your own tier lists
hearty elbow
Yeah but it's more fun to attack you for your subjective opnions
dry ember
generally I dare say the S tier is fairly accurate
hearty elbow
:3
static jacinth
There is no best aspect. But we can all agree that Zagreus aspect Stygius is sad.
neon bramble
It's tough to argue that Demeter aspect isn't the best fist aspect
broken berry
It's easier to comment on other people's lists 
dry ember
so if you want some consistent runs, pick one of the S tier 😄
cunning urchin
I think Zagreus Aspect is the best Malphon aspect.
forest marsh
I'm terrible with recognizing aspects by symbol. What are your S aspects?
gleaming current
Zag stygius is sad, yes
Mostly because it messes with your movement muscle memory
trail otter
Nyaa spiting fax
dry ember
@forest marsh Demeter Fists, Chaos Shield, GY Spear, Hestia Rail
cunning urchin
@dry ember do you have the link?
dry ember
for?
gleaming current
(and, well, because it has nothing to improve damage, which is ultimately all that matters)
forest marsh
Thanks. Definitely agree with all of those
cunning urchin
Tiermaker.
dry ember
someone sent it to me, I didn't make it
that tier list is a bit dated, I would change some rankings, but eh
too much effort
oh yeah and Beowulf now is definitely S tier, also
trail otter
effort = bad
This is why im still playing <10 heat
gleaming current
Zag shield has changed too, iirc
Although not sure if that affects its rating at all 
static jacinth
Effort is bad, which is why Zagreus aspect is the best rail aspect. Don't worry, just pew pew.
neon bramble
There is no weapon aspect template for tiermaker
trail otter
Kriem. Thank you for this
neon bramble
Did you upload your own @dry ember ?
neon bramble
I know, but when I search Hades, it's only for god boons
dry ember
I did not make the link, I made the tier lists above above
neon bramble
I can't find the weapon aspect one
dry ember
bruh it's the link literally one scroll up
gleaming current
No one has submitted tier lists using that template is what they mean ig
"you can be the first!"
trail otter
Also, wow, I'm actually surprised hestia rails is upp there. Somebody care too explain?
dry ember
Hestia is good because 150 damage for empowered shot
Use it like a bow, shot once, reload, repeat
Extremely good range, good mobility because you can move while reloading
Hestia is the bow that Coronacht aspires to be
brisk cairn
fox is this in context of high heat? or just general use
static jacinth
It's a bolt action shotgun.
trail otter
Ahhhh.
I probably don't like it because I keep using DC I'll give it a whirl with this in mind and see how I like it
dry ember
for 20+ heat
brisk cairn
lul
dry ember
agreed
trail otter
Kriem... I
dry ember
20- you can use anything and still do very well
trail otter
I'm hurt
gleaming current
I certainly have no strong opposes towards that list, although if weapon aspects are rated with comparison to other weapon classes then bows likely would be a tad lower
static jacinth
In a good way? 
brisk cairn
I'm liking achilles more than GY personally
but the throw-to-buff is a little jank for sure
dry ember
but if a weapon makes it for 20+ heat, it's even easier to use to lower heat
gleaming current
(wow the timing, was typing that out to fox and got memed)
neon bramble
Here @dry ember I fixed your tierlist for you... 😏
Definitive aspect list https://imgur.com/gallery/HKWljoT
dry ember
why is Beowulf in dumpster tier?
gleaming current
Nemesis should be in A tbh, have to spam special everytime 
hearty elbow
The hardship. Followed by exploding a screen
dry ember
also why you do my Hestia dirty 😦
trail otter
Man like... All these lists and all I see is ma boi Zag's sword in the dumpster and it makes me sad
neon bramble
I was almost certain the sarcasm was apparent on that image
hearty elbow
lmao
static jacinth
I just hate extra dash distance. It genuinely hurts my soul to play with it.
dry ember
I mean if someone make a Rush Delivery Greater Haste Ichor Zag Sword run look good
I will bring Zag Sword to S+ tier
I was almost certain the sarcasm was apparent on that image
@neon bramble ik, was teasing ya
trail otter
I would make that my mission but I do not understand half of what those words mean
static jacinth
The 5 titan blood I wasted on Zag aspect because of Skelly still haunts me.
To this day.
gleaming current
I was almost certain the sarcasm was apparent on that image
too many weapons were given an appropriate rating so it failed to be a mem
dry ember
Rush Delivery (Hermes boon) = extra damage based on bonus movement speed
Greater Haste (also Hermes boon) = 40% movement speed
Ichor = shop item that gives movement speed
Zag Sword gives movement speed
I hope you see the theme here
static jacinth
Also bring the Lambent plume.
dry ember
yes, that
neon bramble
- plume for extra ninja
cunning urchin
gleaming current
Plume plume
gleaming current
You have to use it to kill skelly, insta S tier ngl
hearty elbow
neon bramble
I despise Zag sword as well
cunning urchin
That list is for potential at the highest heats.
hearty elbow
MIne? Yeah that was my intent
cunning urchin
Mine lol. I wasn't guessing at what you did. 
So, at like, 40 heat, something in the lower tiers could outperform something in higher tiers because you have more options.
static jacinth
I think all the companions have their merits.
gleaming current
Hmm yes acorn S
neon bramble
@trail otter the reason I hate Zag sword so much, is because it was so difficult to win with when I first started playing and trying to get my first clear
I actually felt like it was working against me
gleaming current
Dusa is for crowded rooms ig
cunning urchin
But at 50+, any aspect that requires both attack and special or attack and cast or whatever to work already has huge issues.
gleaming current
Not like I found a use for poor dusa either, but she tries her best rn
hearty elbow
@neon bramble I was genuinely confused when I tried any other weapon other than the sword and it actually did damage. Weapons can do that?
static jacinth
Dusa actually does pretty decent damage, slowly.
static jacinth
She's good for Styx rooms.
neon bramble
I mean, if I were to use zag sword now that I know how to use it, my opinion might change, but I can't see the benefit over nemesis whatsoever
hearty elbow
So you can overshoot your dashes into traps
static jacinth
If you turn on the ability to clip through walls, you'll be able to run to the end really fast.
cunning urchin
I think the dash distance and movement speed is certainly helpful.
But no damage is no damage.
neon bramble
When you first start playing, the slashing/thrust combo is terribly unintuitive for players and is actually detrimental to progress until you understand sword should not be used that way
dry ember
that's why you use Rush Delivery to convert that to damage
trail otter
Atleast have some mercy
cunning urchin
Merciful End, I suppose. That would be pretty good with Zagreus Aspect.
dry ember
obviously
hearty elbow
It's been many moons since I've seen Rush Delivery
trail otter
Fox. You are the only empathetic here. Thank you
static jacinth
Do you mean the boon Merciful End, or the literal merciful end of dying and picking a different weapon aspecT?
hearty elbow
what are it's prereqs? Still just movement speed anywhere in your kit?
dry ember
Do you mean the boon Merciful End, or the literal merciful end of dying and picking a different weapon aspecT?
why not both
neon bramble
It was that end thrust that destroyed my opinion of zag sword
turbid needle
why? it hits hard and far
cunning urchin
It knocks back way too far.
dry ember
Merciful End on Zag Sword is like strapping a rocket engine on 1970 VW Beetle to make it go fast because the car itself can't do anything.
neon bramble
Because you expose yourself too much as a beginner using it
turbid needle
that is true i guess
neon bramble
As a veteran player, it's still kinda crappy, but you know how to cancel out and make use of it
cunning urchin
@dry ember no, actually, the dash distance and movement speed helps a lot when you only have one dash. And Merciful End would solve the lack of damage.
dry ember
the dash strike spam is not the intended way of playing sword in general
just a thing that people developed
quick vigil
So the lambent plume gives you bonuses when you quickly clear an encounter? What's the time limit on it
dry ember
there is a timer on the left side, under the keepsake
neon bramble
I still remember knocking spreaders back so far into the lava in Asphodel using the thrust, they would camp there, forcing me to chase them and take mandatory damage. I hated zag sword for that 🤣
neon bramble
As a beginner, I wanted to get away from that sword with every fibre of my being
cunning urchin
Why are you speaking in the past tense? 👸🏽
dry ember
🔥
neon bramble
And when Skelly essentially forced me to waste titan blood on it, I swear I spent 30 minutes pulverizing him 😆
trail otter
Because he is not a beginner anymore and knows not to run away from it because it's viable and good?
neon bramble
That's the joke
static jacinth
I want to spend keys to reallocate titan's blood.
Give it back to me Skelly.
Give it.
cunning urchin
Gotta keep a low profile.
trail otter
You are right. Malp is now D tier
cunning urchin
D tier is too suspicious. They'll know it's fake.
Keeping it as A tier got us Explosive Upper buffs.
neon bramble
Now what we really need is hitstop reduced on rush kick, and a change to how quake cutter works
cunning urchin
Or a change to the fact that Quake Cutter exists, alternatively.
neon bramble
I thought my two ideas on it in feedback were legit ways to make it serviceable
dry ember
people should hang out in the #h1-high-heat-strategies channel more often. we discuss really solid strats such as ... waiting for patch notes
and complain for buffs of course
cunning urchin
I don't know. Recently there's been a lot of low heat 40–48 posts in there. I thought it was for high heat. 
agile charm
Maybe a stupid question, but how do I build each weapon consistently? I'm about 20 runs in, and I can reach Zeus semi-consistently (I think I'd beat him on a really good run at the moment), but I'm finding basically every other weapon worse than Sword + Dash spam, which I presume isn't how the game's balance actually works
dry ember
I can reach Zeus semi-consistently
Someone tells them
static jacinth
Reaching Zeus is easy. Just equip his keepsake :3
static jacinth
What are you struggling with exactly?
Like, just clearing rooms with the other weapons?
static jacinth
Just spamming dash attack can solve a remarkable amount of rooms in general. Assuming you spam with grace.
cunning urchin
It's probably more down to maxing out your mirror and such and just getting better at learning how to deal with different enemies along the way as well as the Hades fight.
agile charm
zzz
Thanks bot
Problems
- DPS seems poor with a lot of builds
- Not very durable if I'm not spamming dash
I have aspects unlocked but haven't spent anything, as none of them make sword + dash spam better and that's my bread and butter as of now
static jacinth
Learning enemy patterns helps there. You're not really meant to be durable, you're meant to avoid damage.
cunning urchin
Builds matter, but if you can get to Hades reliably, your builds should be fine.
static jacinth
A lot of weapons make good use of specials, you might be neglecting to use them.
agile charm
A lot of specials seem... eh
Like, you maybe use them if they have a good curse effect
cunning urchin
- Not very durable if I'm not spamming dash
You're basically supposed to use dash a lot for positioning, i-frames, and with melee weapons and the bow for Dash-Strikes.
static jacinth
Shield special for example, is pretty amazing. Lets you apply a good effect to lots of enemies at once.
agile charm
If I don't have to dodge, I spam dodge strikes because i-frames and deflect are never bad
static jacinth
Zeus or Ares flourishes make a lot of specials exceptionally good.
cunning urchin
If you press Attack during your dash, you cancel your i-frames.
Yeah, Deflect helps a lot.
trail otter
omg
agile charm
On a lot of bullet-hell fights, it's a lot harder to dodge stuff than it is to just mostly have deflect up
cunning urchin
Yup.
trail otter
how have i not realised this before
static jacinth
It's probably harder to spot than you'd think.
Since attacks will still clear projectiles and junk.
trail otter
well i have spotted it
static jacinth
Now you are enlightened.
trail otter
i just never realised why there was an inconsitence in my dash i-frames
agile charm
is Aspect of Nemesis for the sword good? 15% crit uptime sure sounds good
neon bramble
They've also tightened up the effect of divine strike on melee weapons quite a bit.
I felt like it used to deflect through the entire animation of the dash strike, and now it really only deflects at the end point where the strike actually hits
cunning urchin
@dry ember your tier list sucks.
dry ember
trail otter
do not bring that cursed thing here
dry ember
why is the preview not working
agile charm
I've struggled with Cast tbh
dry ember
Nyaa's tier list is cursed
agile charm
I just don't make effective use of it
I can see why Poseidon would be bonkers if you did a cast build
dry ember
if you are not using cast centric aspects
neon bramble
I went from hating snap nova to being a superfanboy of it on Nemesis aspect
trail otter
i will not post my list because i have less experience than theese two but it is better
agile charm
K I'll splurge on Nemesis aspect for Sword then
dry ember
casts is mainly used for boiling blood and stagger enemies
cunning urchin
This is the tier list from the #1 Hades player. https://imgur.com/a/KHi8nxI
neon bramble
I just realised the other day that the recall animation on snap nova actually damages enemies in its path similar to Achilles spear
trail otter
no... its an axe 😦
cunning urchin
Nemesis is probably the best sword aspect, basically.
neon bramble
It looks like a katana to me
cunning urchin
But Poseidon is incredibly strong at lower heats, too.
trail otter
this is my only way of getting an axe okay?
cunning urchin
It just requires a bit more to get going.
neon bramble
Or sabre because of the guard
trail otter
its just not the same thing
cunning urchin
They are both the same thing.
dry ember
Hades spear is the closest thing you get to an axe playstyle imo
dry ember
I need a balls to the wall Excalibur build
trail otter
Arthur is my favorite for this reason
trail otter
and slowing down projectiles tm
neon bramble
I'm guessing WS and flurry are locked out of Arthur aspect
hearty elbow
#@*$#($ How does Approval Process ALWAYS know
cunning urchin
Think of Beowulf as a throwing axe.
static jacinth
Arthur can't get World Splitter.
trail otter
Thank you Nyaa the sentiment is nice
agile charm
Oh, side-question
dry ember
#@*$#($ How does Approval Process ALWAYS know
RNGesus giveth, RNGesus taketh.
static jacinth
But they can get Shadow Slash and destroy everyone's day with that backstab damage.
agile charm
What' s a generically good trinket, or should I just use whatever trinket gets me a boon I want for my build?
Currently I just camp Black Shawl
static jacinth
Swapping trinkets for boons is the usual go to.
dry ember
God Trinket > Depends > Acorn > Acorn if you want consistent wins
trail otter
Acorn
static jacinth
But the broken speartip is a good generalist trinket as well.
agile charm
Does Nemesis crit work with Artemis crit synergy BTW?
neon bramble
Myrmidon bracer is fairly solid too. If you get hit a lot on bosses, it's actually better than acorn if you stop and think about it
static jacinth
Zagreus Bow likes Artemis too.
agile charm
Cursed Slash good or junk BTW?
neon bramble
Cursed slash + flurry slash is 👌
cunning urchin
You'll still need a t1 crit boon from her to unlock her t2 crit boon pool, but yes.
unkempt pagoda
depends
dry ember
For the first clear, good. Subsequent clears, junk.
unkempt pagoda
it can be viable
cunning urchin
Cursed Slash is good.
dry ember
Cursed Slash is cursed
static jacinth
Healing on demand is one of those nice things.
Though obviously there's a big risk involved if you're not good at dodging consistently.
neon bramble
You must keep in mind, it heals on slashes, NOT on dash strikes
dry ember
which is why it's junk
neon bramble
Unless you use Arthur or combo it with flurry slash
trail otter
i think ive done that by accident
dry ember
Not as god tier as Hazard Bomb Eris
neon bramble
Worst. Hammer. Ever.
static jacinth
Hazard bomb at least only does 1 damage to you.
neon bramble
Does hazard bomb trigger broken speartip?
unkempt pagoda
1% damage
trail otter
lmao ive done Hazard bomb + Eris aswell... not on accident though
just out of ignorance
neon bramble
If you run SD and get stubborn Roots, I could see hazard bomb being a smart pickup
Particularly with Frost flourish and killing freeze
gusty elm
@limber briar have you tried using the broken spearpoint in styx? i've found it to be incredibly helpful in mitigating poison damage—i usually only take 1 tick of damage, then i have 1.5 seconds to notice what's happening and cure myself
i used to have endless trouble with poison before trying that out
quiet valve
Am I really bad (a likely possibility), or is Stygius wayyyy harder to do well with than any other weapon? Fairly new to the game (Heat 1)
stuck elbow
its down to personal taste tbh
trail otter
unless you are using the Zag aspect it can be very hard. But other than that its just personal taste and playstyle
stuck elbow
like at high heat some aspects do run into issues (Guan Yu just melts at high heat in Elysium due to low HP max)
but starting out its really about what suits your play more
pseudo stream
deflecting dash seems amazing
trail otter
it is
quiet valve
Something else I don't have a great grasp on is how bounties work. Do "bounties" just mean the titan's blood/diamond/ambrosia rewards you get from boss kills? Or are they something different?
random hull
You got that right.
trail otter
yup
stuck elbow
yup
pseudo stream
privileged status vs family thingy... thoughts?
pseudo stream
is the aspect of eris good? seems better than Zag, though I don't really understand how it works
random hull
It's risky in playstyle, but the damage buff increases absolutely everything (OK, there's the exception of summons).
pseudo stream
you have to stand in the aoe to get the bonus?
random hull
Yes.
It is not advisable to aim at the enemy with the special and run over there. Aim a grenade at yourself and then let loose.
pseudo stream
okay cool, thanks
lament perch
I've been dying to Lernie almost every run lately, but I just beat him using up no DDs, even with a chaos curse slowing me down!
trail otter
Nicely done!
forest marsh
Congrats! 
lament perch
Thanks :D Ended up sabotaging my own run in Styx for a titans blood that ended up not being offered, but that was a pretty good run
Are there any updated resources for what the legendary boon requirements are?
trail otter
There was a really sweet sheet on reddit
Lemme look it up for ya
Boon Trees https://imgur.com/a/TLdQ7mo
forest marsh
That's pinned here in this channel, too
lament perch
Ah nice! I hadn't seen that it was updated for blood price. Thanks!
trail otter
Mb
quaint lodge
i tried, i really did try, but even with most buffs ares cast just doesnt work. it is ok/fine at normal chambers but at boss fights its just too tedious. is it only me?
tepid ridge
With its duo with Artemis and a few Ares and Chaos upgrades it’s probably one of the three most liked casts in the game
But there are some peoples’ play styles it might not fit as well into so 🤷
quaint lodge
i didnt have the duo, but seeing that it makes perfect sense! it may not seemed like it, but i was looking for suggestions, still relatively new thanks!
unkempt pagoda
the duo is what really makes a blades build shine, otherwise it's just pretty ok
tepid ridge
You might consider Artemis’, Dio’s or Poseidon’s casts (especially if you get some duos for it) and they might fit what you like more.!
quaint lodge
ive had some good runs with artemis' and dio's, but haven't tried poseidon's yet, good to know
desert oak
Hey all, best daedulus upgrades for the bow?
unkempt pagoda
point-blank, twin shot, chain shot are my go-tos, i only take triple if it's with either point-blank or chain
for chiron, relentless (+4 special arrows) and concentrated volley should be your top picks
hearty elbow
Triple shot is obscene with Rama, especially with Chain Shot.
warm snow
Has anyone tried Adamant Rail Aspect of Lucifer with Divine Flourish? It's super fun.
try the build above with Thunder Flourish and KA BOOM. Super fun.
gusty elm
@alpine moat i'm pretty sure they're saying that, if the game gives you dialog between two gods for a duo boon, you shouldn't be able to reroll that boon away from your options see below
lament coral
guys, he's talking about Approval Process, the heat modifier that blocks random boons
gusty elm
ohhh
not sure how i missed that tbh
so they're saying approval process shouldn't be able to remove duo boons you've just gotten dialog for—that makes sense to me
untold vortex
I mean, how are the gods supoosed to know what boons have been removed from approval process
lament coral
^
unkempt pagoda
you did take an rng based heat modifier, can't be too upset when it rngs
lament coral
there's a simple solution to this problem: don't use Approval Process
cunning urchin
The right thing to do with Approval Process is to have a lot of good luck—like me.
lament coral
or use Sisyphus' keepsake and play AP3
too bad it only goes to 2 though
which reminds me
unkempt pagoda
AP3, FO3, UC2, TD3, EM4
the best heat modifier is personal liability 2: every time you take massive damage, it instantly kills you
pseudo stream
Does doom stack with itself?
cunning urchin
No.
cunning urchin
Right. They probably don't know yet either. Just sometime in 2020.
pseudo stream
Cool... I wanna wait for it before playing more, but also don’t haha
lament coral
Doom doesn't stack by itself but there's an Ares boon that does that
alpine moat
Hey thanks @gusty elm for the ping I didn't realize you were discussing it here
I agree that the gods can't necessarily know what boons have been "disapproved" :P But from a player interaction standpoint, if two gods are talking to one another, then it kinda makes sense to have a duo boon there - and the GAME certainly can know what boons you're gunna get.
Like, by all means, I think it would be neat if approval process showed what boons you missed out on - I've not used it yet, but I imagine the space is just blank right?
unkempt pagoda
nope, it shows you
alpine moat
Oh great!
I didn't know that, and in that case I'm totally on board with the duos not being available.
warm snow
god/goddess for tricks: Athena, Demeter, Aphrodite, Poseidon, Dionysus.
the ones for raw strength: Atermis, Ares, Zeus (damage buff)
proper yarrow
aphro can be pretty good for raw damage
warm snow
she reduce enemies damage mostly
turbid needle
isnt poseidon raw dmg guy
warm snow
yes but knockback is much more important
turbid needle
I guess it depends on what you define as raw dmg
proper yarrow
idk man, It isn't that uncommon for aphro special to put out some insane damage
warm snow
I love the gun with lucifer aspect and athena special
IMO this build is the best
just drop special bomb near ur enemies
then they'll kill themselves
warm snow
even asterius can't bull rush you
you need to spend about 5 Titan bloods for the gun
upgrade some aspect
warm snow
in my experience, when I use tricks (like athena boons), the game is much easier
ares is also strong but he can't help you avoid losing HP
for highest raw dmg, try Artemis
I clear the run in 28 mins
cunning urchin
Lady Aphrodite beats Lady Artemis in damage unless you have some synergy with Daedalus Upgrades or t2 crit boons—or maybe Chaos boons.
proper yarrow
yeah, when i try to go fast, i generally use nemesis sword with either artemis or aphro attack
when I do that, i generally get sub 19
warm snow
ah, I use 5 bombs with Daedalus + Artemis
and triple bombs also
sometimes with rocket bomb 100 dmg
warm snow
I tried it before
but now I replace Ares with Artemis
sometimes I get 900 - 1100+ dmg
kill the final boss pretty fast
green plover
Tried out 32 straight up after 16. Let's just say I got my redacted handed back to me by the Asphodel power couple.
lament coral
The Rock is the only problem there. Hard to pick up on the timing of waves.
green plover
I got a bit flustered in previous rooms too because I only had two or maybe three underlevelled boons. Tartarus starved me of boons this time.
proven trout
So, have just learned that Rama aspect bow special attack, with Athena deflect/dmg and hermes speed boons (epic or better) pretty much makes it makes you immune to all attacks (continuous deflect) with machine gun damage output..... I didnt use normal attack once.
rare kayak
fun fact
sea storm counts for shield basic attack and bull rush
i know this because im currently doing a run where i took special damage + special boost from chaos
because i cant read
its not even high tier, just base
on chaos shield
broken nexus
Any thoughts on the frost fair blade aspect. I like the theory but in practice the health loss just wrecks me
Which spear aspects do you prefer?
barren otter
I also didn't like Guan Yu at first, because the spin attack felt awkward and I was relying on the healing from it too much, which made me lose even more health, but now I like it a lot, though I don't recommend using it until you max it out.
If you use it as like a stronger spear, but treat the healing as just a bonus, you should be fine.
cunning urchin
Get Charged Skewer, and focus on Special with, ideally, Heartbreak Flourish or Deadly Flourish; or get Divine Strike, and focus on Attack— hoping for Quick Spin.
That's what's proved most effective so far.
If you focus on Attack, you probably want to avoid Tight Deadline.
broken nexus
thanks
lapis pilot
how much use are some of the trinkets? for like three runs i've been trying to get fully loaded from artemis and the arrowhead has been largely useless in spawning her
static jacinth
Is Bad News from Hermes really good with stuff like Trippy Shot? Since it never gets stuck?
cunning urchin
Yep!
hearty elbow
wtf lol TIL he has 2 legendaries
hearty elbow
Kinda unfortunate that they made the Stygian soul cast builds so much less consistent though.
cunning urchin
I'm happy about that. They were very dominant in Nighty Night meta.
hearty elbow
It's pretty easy to get 2 casts, but a crap shoot past that when I've tried recently
rare kayak
yknow, i never actually considered that
so on something like hunting blades is it just a free 50% damage up?
cunning urchin
Yeah.
rare kayak
i was wondering
because otherwise it just seems somewhat mediocre but now that you put it like that
random hull
It's especially potent with Ice Wine or Blizzard Shot.
Basically, any duo-supported non-sticky cast.
slim salmon
I've been trying to get Demeter's legendary for ages now, is there an easier way to get it or is RNG failing me?
safe horizon
Are you meeting the requirements? If you have 2 of either Killing Freeze, Arctic Blast or Ravenous Will it should have a chance to roll. Probably RNG failing you, try the boon that boosts the chance of legendaries and also take demeters keepsake so you can get a boon from her early maybe?
static jacinth
Also, I know it's sort of a joke, but I made a dash build work!
Though really it was mostly a Zeus lightning build where the only lightning boons I could get were the dash boons.
But it was very fun to kill the final boss by just running back and forth across his face.
gilded knoll
Pos dash build is very hilarious in Styx
broken nexus
any tips on vermin generally - I can cruise through but it's amazing how many times they wreck all the revives just before I get to hades
Should I be aiming for better damage, defense, melee, or try to tackle from range?
dry ember
You just need enough damage
They are dps checks
If you are not doing this, lodge a cast in them so you can improve your dps (this is true in general but particularly true for vermins)
broken nexus
thanks @dry ember
spark mulch
is status/curse damage caused by your special affected by effects that increase the damage of your special?
say like chaos boons
would a chaos boon improving special increase special doom damage?
static jacinth
Just based on base damage of the special.
lament coral
no, Chaos damage is additive and is based off your base damage. For example, if your attack does 10 damage and your special does 20, an attack/special Chaos boon that grants you +10% attack/special damage would translate into +1/+2 damage, regardless of the boons you have.
However, there are hammers that affect your base damage, like sword's World Splitter that sets base attack to 90 damage, meaning your +10% attack Chaos boon would now be providing you with +9 attack damage.
lament coral
is that Patty's? Hourglass only affect items from the Well
spark mulch
oh dang
slim salmon
Question: if I'm using Frostbitten Horn, do I get a higher chance of finding Demeter boons when I enter a biome or is it just the first time I find a boon?
cunning urchin
It's just the first time.
Unless you skip that boon, then it will just keep trying until you pick one up.
Once you've picked it up, it won't work again for the rest of the run.
But you still get the boost to rarity chance for her boons.
hollow mural
that moment where you realise just how much you rely on boons
im doing a shackle run
i cry
cunning urchin
But also, once you've picked up a boon from her if you didn't already have 1 from her, she'll now be in the pool of Olympians the game choosea from for any subsequent boons.
main osprey
It's fun
cunning urchin
But you don't need to have her keepsake equipped anymore for her to remain in the pool.
hollow mural
im only good with the fists ;-;
cunning urchin
Excalibur without boons can be surprisingly stressful lol.
slim salmon
Yeah but excalibur hits like a truck
main osprey
I think I've done no boons with Chaos Aspect and the Spear the most
hollow mural
truu
main osprey
Ooh, that's a good point, are you taking Hammers?
slim salmon
fun fact, I'm doing an exca run right now and got this upgrade
hollow mural
yeah i got one that hits 2 times and 20% dmg with larger area
slim salmon
just killed lernie in about 2 mins
main osprey
Nice (to both of you)
cunning urchin
Yeah but excalibur hits like a truck
It hits like a truck thanks to high base damage + scaling from boons etc.
hollow mural
slim salmon
Excalibur is probably my 2nd favorite aspect
main osprey
I really should record one of my No Boons runs and upload it
slim salmon
first being malphon's demeter
hollow mural
i actually dont like any of the 4th aspects
cunning urchin
But if you take boons out of the equation, it's slow and takes a lot of swings to kill things.
@main osprey is it gonna be 32 heat?
main osprey
Not yet, but I think I can do a 16 heat one
slim salmon
if you take boons out of the equation your chances drastic go down
main osprey
I still haven't done 32 heat normally xD
cunning urchin
I don't want to watch it if it isn't 32 heat, no boons. 
main osprey
:3 and what's the highest you've done? Without boons?
hollow mural
you're addressing the queen of hades o.o
main osprey
I'm aware
hollow mural
scary
main osprey
Hahaha
slim salmon
I got some catching up to do
main osprey
Nyaa, she ain't that scary ;)
main osprey
Fair enough
slim salmon
I can finish most of my runs without using a single death defiance but boonless is a challenge
hollow mural
boonless is awful ;-;
dry ember
Yeah, almost as if the game is meant to be played with boons
main osprey
I suppose
hollow mural
yeah, but its always fun trying different things :>
main osprey
But I've never been one to play games as intended
main osprey
Honestly, the shackle update has made my runs much easier
cunning urchin
Tell that to the Underworld Customs office.
main osprey
Honestly, Lernie was the hardest boss
dry ember
Do a dash only run with Delfect
main osprey
Oof
hollow mural
that
sounds
so
gross
actually though, that sounds like really good training
to learn how and when to dodge
i might do it
cunning urchin
Do a dash only run with Delfect
That's how I practice the Hades fight lol. Just kill him with Deflects from Divine Dash. Works well for phase 1. I kill the summons normally, though.
main osprey
Fair
cunning urchin
Errr.. the mods won't like you getting around the language filter.
main osprey
|| for real though, it's just narrative progression to unlock them ||
cunning urchin
@main osprey when's boonless mirrorless level 0 weapon?
main osprey
Hmm, that would require Bow or Shield, those are the only weapons with 0 blood in the Zag aspect
I'd rather not just do a new run, so I can still have my Keepsakes
cunning urchin
I don't have any weapons at Lv.0 lol.
main osprey
I mean, you can't have Aspects at lv.0, only Zag Aspects
cunning urchin
Correct.
main osprey
I have some Aspects with only one level of Blood in them, would that count?
cunning urchin
No.
main osprey
Aight
Probably shield, then, since I can't stand regular bow xD
But I won't abuse the block
cunning urchin
@hollow mural I did mirrorless at 33 Heat, but I haven't done mirrorless boonless lol.
dry ember
I did a chaos boon only run
cunning urchin
Thank you! 💗
hollow mural
for like the firs 30 runs i did, i used the shield, and i only figured out you could block after 30 runs
dry ember
(minus the divine dash in tartarus xD)
hollow mural
and i completed 3 runs by that time
main osprey
Alright, so that's two current challenges (since I already did the weekly one)
No Mirror, No Boons
No Boons, 16 heat
hollow mural
i felt so stupid
dry ember
Hear is a challenge for you
main osprey
Yes it is
cunning urchin
You can do it with a Lv.5 weapon if you want lol.
main osprey
Oh aight
dry ember
Complete a run with anything you want sub 9 minute
hollow mural
sub 9 mins?
main osprey
Bleh, nope
hollow mural
is it 0 heat?
main osprey
My fastest is just over 20 min
dry ember
Well actually 0 heat can be longer than 2
main osprey
Sub 10 isn't happening for a while
dry ember
Yes
cunning urchin
Mirrorless boonless would be quite a feat even with a Lv.5 weapon.
hollow mural
do tell
dry ember
Tight Deadline removes survival room
hollow mural
oh does it o.o
hollow mural
hmm
cunning urchin
Survival rooms stop the timer.
cunning urchin
It didn't in Nighty Night, I think.
dry ember
Speaking of which, you should check out the Hermes cup tournament next week.
main osprey
Ooh?
dry ember
And see me getting my ass handed
dry ember
Yeah it's racing to see who finishes 3 races first
And it will be posted in #self-promotion i bet
hollow mural
alright, ill keep an eye out for it
dry ember
We already had a race last week :D
hollow mural
ill probably forget
slim salmon
1040 damage on Asterius. DANG
hollow mural
yeah, ill unmute the channel so hopefully i get a ping or something
slim salmon
I love that hammer upgrade in this aspect
dry ember
Which one on what?
slim salmon
Excalibur, Shadow Slash hammer upgrade.
And I just added Pressure Points. Let's see the beeg numbas now.
Important to mention: add 3 casts.
And Cyclops Jerky Select.
dry ember
@slim salmon https://imgur.com/a/u9qzRch
main osprey
Woah
cunning urchin
168 damage.
dry ember
Pic not mine
cunning urchin
Nice.
slim salmon
BEEG NUMBA
dry ember
Ironically it's p small in the pic xD
cunning urchin
325 max HP.
slim salmon
I can't recall my highest hit tho
cunning urchin
91 Nectar.
tepid ridge
GreatShield has left
slim salmon
note to self: when flexing damage, make sure it's in the 5k.
main osprey
Hahaha
main osprey
Yeah
dry ember
It's WR but I'm humble so I didn't say anything
I let others have their chances of course
untold quiver
So.....I just discovered you can load casts into Beowulf Shield AFTER you start the charge
untold quiver
Yeah while your rushing
hearty elbow
can enemies that spawn from infernal troves drop gold?
main osprey
I think so?
main osprey
alright, 16 heat no boons run
made it to the mid-region shop in Elysium, but I gotta pause before my laptop melts
it's super hot here
made some mistakes, but I'm getting a lot of obol to make up for them lmao
serene phoenix
What's the best weapon for cast runs
unkempt pagoda
hera, poseidon, and talos are your big options
dry ember
Achilles also
Use Stygian Soul
So you don't have to run around collecting casts after your special rush
serene phoenix
Does Stygian Soul work with Poseidon?
dry ember
Well it does dislodge the cast so Exit Wounds would proc
But you can't collect the cast
It just disappears essentially
serene phoenix
If I go Poseidon do I hyperfocus exit wounds lol
unkempt pagoda
the best case scenario would be stygian soul + chaos grasps (and/or fully loaded)
but infernal soul doesn't rely on luck
dry ember
Honestly no
serene phoenix
And on Poseidon do you still do StygianSoul
dry ember
Infernal is better on Poseidon imo
unkempt pagoda
^
gleaming current
There isn't a real reason to use poseidon if you are about to use stygian soul tbh
serene phoenix
That's what I thought ok
gleaming current
Shots fired
serene phoenix
What are the best casts for him
unkempt pagoda
stygian doesn't work too well on hera either, since it doesn't start the regen timer until you actually fire
so you can only ever shoot 1 cast at a time
gleaming current
Just imagine if you could have loaded stygian soul casts infinitely
Building up arrow shot for 12 hours
unkempt pagoda
rip infinite cast glitch
dry ember
What are the best casts for him
Personal, True Shot (Artemis)
gleaming current
Poseidon cast works decently
Zeus maybe
Aphrodite is kind of short ranged but ig that can work as well?
Artemis definitely neat
Ares, demeter, dionysis don't lodge
Athena eh meh works
unkempt pagoda
demeter appreciates the +50% damage
and is probably the only weapon i'd consider a crystal beam build on tbh
gleaming current
Ah right, I forgot poseidon also has bonus cast dmg
unkempt pagoda
a crystal beam run is a neverending search for +% cast damage buffs and still wondering why you're not doing enough damage
until you get crystal clarity, of course
gleaming current
Which you don't get and keep searching for until aphro-demeter duo shows up to tease you
rare kayak
oh its you
anyway does anyone know if theres a way to reset darker thirst
my last five runs have been bow spear fist bow spear
or something
cunning urchin
Dying works.
turbid needle
If you've got the Pact unlocked, maxed Routine Inspection nukes your entire mirror, putting you at 50 health with no Death Defiances. Toss on maximum Hard Labor, Heightened Security, and Forced Overtime for extra quick resets.
main osprey
also @unkempt pagoda we should move here
unkempt pagoda
fated persuasion baby
fallow niche
Oh
Yeah
The triple chaos from the same well
Good stuff
Also, that's a part of my any% speedrun route 
Feels real good
@turbid needle Yes you should
Or rather, FP is good in very specific scenarios like that
Builds that don't need many boons or want super specific boons really want it
Otherwise I prefer FA
turbid needle
So, what, an Aspect of Chaos Thunder Flourish build wants Authority for mo' Zeus boons?
turbid needle
Yeeaaahhhh.
main osprey
@turbid needle should bring discussion here
unkempt pagoda
i know nyaa is a staunch persuasion user
fallow niche
Builds that really just want a few very specific boons want Persuasion
unkempt pagoda
however, i just can't let go of authority
turbid needle
Yeah yeah yeah, I'm here.
fallow niche
Most speedrunners are @unkempt pagoda
unkempt pagoda
i'm not a speedrunner, so i'm okay with that
fallow niche
The fastest runs are the ones where you can get more chaos gates and the specific powerful boons you want really early
So Persuasion really helps with that
Once you get your "core" the rest of the boons you get pretty much don't matter
turbid needle
I could see wanting Fated Persuasion for nothing else except rerolling Chaos and two or three starting boons.
turbid needle
Get Heartbreak Strike, Deadly Flourish, and Divine Dash with Nemesis, then just a billion Lunge/Strike boons.
Gonna breathe deep and tell myself if I am forced into picking Poseidon I can always pick Sunken Treasure endlessly.
fallow niche
I actually think a triple god build like that may want authority, you need a ton of boons
Also the new Poseidon boon is nuts
the first 5 seconds damage one
WEW lad
unkempt pagoda
ocean's bounty really isn't awful
turbid needle
Yeah, Hydraulic Might.
unkempt pagoda
5 secs is a little too short imo
turbid needle
Oh, no, Ocean's Bounty is great, but after taking Hydraulic Might and Ocean's Bounty it will have to be Sunken Treasure five times.
unkempt pagoda
but it's a good filler boon
fallow niche
Bro I kill all the minibosses in under a second thanks to it 😂
Ultimate speedunner boon, god I love it
I love me massive numbers
unkempt pagoda
does than + hunter's mark still work
fallow niche
Poseidon is still the worst god but he isn't totally useless anymore outside of Sea Storm builds
@unkempt pagoda What do you mean + hunters mark?
serene phoenix
what happens if you sell a cast that a duo relies on
main osprey
it breaks
turbid needle
Mort?
serene phoenix
good to know lol
turbid needle
Mort can crit off Hunter's Mark?
unkempt pagoda
than's attacks during his room could be affected by hunter's mark
main osprey
what!?
turbid needle
I believe so.
unkempt pagoda
9999 +200% = big boy numbers
fallow niche
During who's room?
turbid needle
Yeah, sometimes you'll see something explode taking 29997 damage.
unkempt pagoda
thanatos
fallow niche
Oh maybe that's why Haelian is trying to use that bad companion now 😂
Achilles/Patty companion is bonkers, couldn't have asked for more
unkempt pagoda
turbid needle
Yeah, having something that reliably targets the Heroes?
Even for less damage than Meg? Nothing could top that.
And against every other boss it's just massive single target deeps.
autumn bough
Just learned that Hestia shot doesn't home in with Seeking Fire. Now I am super disappointed.
fallow niche
Damage-only companions (not bouldy or skelly or dusa) are best for single-targets
In that Achilles is absurd
unkempt pagoda
its ok use ricochet shot
fallow niche
It instantly downs Meg's first phase which I'd normally have to dash over to her to do
turbid needle
It's awesome with Ricochet.
mighty ermine
yeah, hestia's empowered shot is almost immutable
autumn bough
At least the +damage part works.
fallow niche
But yeah, gonna reiterate than is worst companion, they still need to make it pierce armor on normal mobs since he is normally able to do that in his challenge rooms 
autumn bough
And you lose your charge on going through a door. Did that used to happen?
turbid needle
Yes.
But now you can reload at full ammo.
So just press [insert your reload button] whenever a Chamber starts to get the shot.
For the record, Hestia requiring a reload at the start of a Chamber is a good thing. It reinforces that merely emptying the magazine won't give you the empowered shot, you have to reload to get it.
small stirrup
I'm assuming the Lambent plume's and Zag Fists' dodge chance isn't additive?
unkempt pagoda
multiplicative
turbid needle
Definitely seen footage of people standing in front of Dad's lasers.
Constant "Dodge" ticks.
small stirrup
I'm assuming that is with Greater Dodge as well
turbid needle
And I think Second Wind.
cedar nimbus
Speaking about lasers, I hate how sometimes they hit through the columns that are supposed to block them.
If Hades stands too close to one.
turbid needle
I've seen that happen to other people but it hasn't happened to me yet and I'm very glad for that.
That's gotta be maddening in phase 2.
cedar nimbus
Yup. Died a couple times because of that already.
mighty ermine
or when they hit a vase that pools wider to hit you while you're behind cover 
turbid needle
Nyaanyaa would (rightfully) say it's your fault for not clearing a safe space.
cunning urchin
I would?
turbid needle
maybe
unkempt pagoda
LMAO
mighty ermine
lol
small stirrup
why you ghost us like that Nyaan
cedar nimbus
My easiest heat run so far was probably Dionysus with high level Hangover on Attack and ricochet with Rail.
turbid needle
Oh, man.
cedar nimbus
Felt like I was bullying rooms and bosses
small stirrup
My easiest heat run so far was probably Dionysus with high level Hangover on Attack and ricochet with Rail.
HOO BOY
turbid needle
That or Seeking Fire might bring back the old Spread Fire glory days.
cedar nimbus
Another highlight was level... 4, I think, Athena's God power with Excalibur.
I just activated it halfway through Hades' second phase and stood there beating his face in.
small stirrup
God power?
cedar nimbus
His HP ran out before the god gauge did.
dry ember
call
cedar nimbus
I forget what they're called
small stirrup
Oh
cedar nimbus
Calls, yeah
dry ember
Athena's Aid
cedar nimbus
My bad
dry ember
all good!
small stirrup
Lel "God Power" I like that
mighty ermine
zag activates god mode command console
dry ember
secret to 58 heat clear, clearly
mighty ermine
of course
and clearly personal liability is an unlockable pact option for normal files
we just haven't figured out how to unlock it yet 
cunning urchin
Just get Unhealthy Fixation and Charm everything. Easy 58 Heat.
dry ember
what are they?
unkempt pagoda
they were long, cool names
dry ember
it's funny that each god have different names for attacks, special, etc
unkempt pagoda
like artemis's wrath used to be called barbs of the master huntress