@cunning urchin You can search for posts in this thread from me, and scroll back to where you see a bunch of numbers and stuff. It was yesterday evening (EST). I don't know if I can link a particular point in time in discord, someone let me know if you know how
#h1-builds-and-combat
hearty elbow
cunning urchin
Hmm.
hollow mural
can i have a spear recommendation
main osprey
https://discordapp.com/channels/456889434672201729/520688402958516254/732718425700434031
@cunning urchin @hearty elbow
(that wasn't to you, Oli, btw)
unkempt pagoda
can i have a spear recommendation
hades spear serrated point
(for a special based build, go explosive launcher instead of serrated)
hollow mural
okay, what gods/esses should i look for
unkempt pagoda
the most common choice would be some mix of artemis/aphrodite
hollow mural
ah okay, same as the bow then
unkempt pagoda
poseidon for the special can work, athena has a pretty good modifier and provides defense
demeter just has great damage modifiers all around, so she's always a good second choice
winter rune
Serrated edge is really really good
That plus a good modifier will win you the run on its own
turbid needle
If you get Divine Strike and Hunter Dash, that can spawn Deadly Reversal which is basically Deadly Strike with a better crit chance and damage up.
winter rune
If you somehow get artemis dash or a chaos boon that improves it, it be'comes really really stupid
hollow mural
serrated edge o.o
unkempt pagoda
one of my favorite mechanical quirks
hollow mural
i never had that before
unkempt pagoda
hunter dash being a valid prereq of deadly reversal
cunning urchin
Divine Strike + Hunter Dash or Deadly Strike + Passion Dash is what I would recommend for Varatha for an Attack build.
unkempt pagoda
i've heard good things about lightning serrated but i'm not sure how good it is myself
cunning urchin
Or just Deadly Strike + Hunter Dash because why not.
winter rune
I don't think it's worth it to pass on a high attack multiplier
it's probably fine but not as silly
unkempt pagoda
hades's bigger spin can net you a lot more doom procs
i wouldn't recommend dio for any hades spear build
cunning urchin
Curse of Agony on Hades Aspect doesn't sound like a great idea. 
unkempt pagoda
unless you're picking up like, trippy shot or drunken dash
eh, if you're just using it as a set-up for your specials
but ares isn't like, amazing
cunning urchin
If you focus on Special, you should just actually focus on your Special and just pick whatever for Attack that you run into that happens to have a status curse if you run Privileged Status.
Better to focus on getting what you want on your Dash and maybe Call than worry about what's on Attack.
Which is probably Divine Dash.
hearty elbow
if only there was a hunting blades for guan yu spins
fierce thicket
Now that's an interesting hammer idea
hearty elbow
You have 50% of 50% max life. Frost Fair Blade Spin Attack follows enemies
hearty elbow
lol
I feel like my GY runs fall into 2 camps: Quick Spin + Massive Spin/Winged Serpent and fall asleep because this is so broken I can't even, or... the other runs. Gitting gud intensifies
fierce thicket
At least they have bright fireworks
The biggest issue with gy special builds is hearing zag's constant grunts
hearty elbow
lol
man i love Excalibur. every other sword feels like i'm slapping around a wet noodle
cunning urchin
I'd take Nemesis over Excalibur. But Excalibur is good.
hearty elbow
i got the double dash strike hammer, exposed, hunter dash, 2x chaos boon Nemesis yesterday and only then did my crits feel like Excalibur with Artemis Attack in Tartarus lol
fierce thicket
I haven't used the sword too much, don't like its feel, I do enjoy a poseidon cast build though
hearty elbow
but yeah, but the burst of Double Edge, extra dashes, Hunter Dash with Nemesis is nutty
Excalibur be thicc doe
lol, also in tartarus, a weak Charon in the special field "melee" (can that oar be even considered melee? it's like half the screen) hit me for 30 damage
cunning urchin
I like the mobility of Nemesis a lot more.
cunning urchin
@winter rune begone, blackguard! We shan't listen to your evil words! 🔫 
winter rune
Godsdammit theseus i'm on break, lay off
cunning urchin
Proxy and I shall vanquish you! 🔫
winter rune
dashes away repeatedly Seriously, give me some space, this isn't even elysium
main osprey
Didn't even need Skelly's Tooth 
winter rune
Not. Even. Close. 
hearty elbow
lol, 77% dmg reduction run
hollow mural
is doom good for blitz shield?
dry ember
is that zeus aspect?
yeah it's good on attack
I wouldn't recommend it on special though
hollow mural
oh how comes?
dry ember
it works
hollow mural
i wanted to try dem/ares
dry ember
but there are better things on special such as Lightning Flourish or Deadly Strike, Drunken Flourish
hollow mural
on the shield attack only
lament coral
Zeus shield does mad damage with its special
Doom does nothing to amplify that damage
dry ember
demeter on special is good, too
since it stacks slow, which allows even more consistent damage
turbid needle
It does proc extremely quickly so if you're able to get Divine Strike or Dash you can chain Merciful End extremely quickly.
lament coral
what is the default attack shield damage? 15?
dry ember
because bullrush is good with spreading doom anyway
turbid needle
hollow mural
okay, ill try that
main osprey
I'm about to go into Styx with over 3k obol
sterile portal
Do you have Hoarding Slash?
sterile portal
Why stock up that much lol
main osprey
I mean, by the time I got partially through Tartarus I'd decided to get as much obol as I could
gilded knoll
That's always my goal
main osprey
holy RNG
I just decided to do the same thing, but max out for hoarding slash and damage with crit (nemesis)
I was planning on resetting and casting to change my seed until I started with Hoarding Slash
game just gave it to me first try
brisk cairn
Rama special focused build, start with demeter or artemis?
cunning urchin
@main osprey your feedback about EM3 should specify if it's FO2, FO1, or without FO.
hearty elbow
for special? +arrows, consecutive damage
main osprey
okay
hearty elbow
oh wait nvm i'm thinking chiron
honestly for dio build you want to go aphro/ares main attack, aphro is better since the attack hammers for rama are all great
well, minus the celestial sharanga hammer, that one is trash
cunning urchin
@gusty elm Fated Persuasion right now will always offer at least 1 new option. If it always offered 3 new options it would be way overpowered without Approval Process and really screw over runs that use Approval Process.
It's plenty strong the way it is now and works well with and without Approval Process.
midnight karma
Is Zeus/Ares/Dionysus damage affecting by boons/hammers that increase Attack/Special damage? Or do those only apply to weapons base damage?
earnest ravine
They're not, no. Those boons are only affected by level up or flat damage increases (like Privileged Status, Pierced Butterfly, etc.).
midnight karma
Thought so, danke.
And Chaos increased damage is multiplicative with boon/hammer increased damage, ja?
Since it affects base
earnest ravine
Yup! Anything that affects your base attack power scales with Chaos.
midnight karma
Oh actually I typed that wrong, hammer and chaos are additive with each other, and then boons are multiplicative on that.
Thanks that helps with theory crafting lol
earnest ravine
The meaning got across well enough, and I'm honestly bad at remembering the weird exceptions to "everything is multiplicative" in this game, so glad one of us caught it!
hearty elbow
... nothing is multiplkicative haha
main osprey
(thanks ledger)
hearty elbow
it's quite the opposite
earnest ravine
Isn't, uhh. Heart Rend and something else?
hearty elbow
Chaos, Hammers, Crit --> everythign else is additive
earnest ravine
words hard orz
hearty elbow
crit multi adds into itself, except for heart rend, which is... a crit multi multiplier
grave tapir
@cunning urchin really? I could have sworn that i got the same three options last time. But maybe it was patched recently
main osprey
@grave tapir if you get the exact same three, report it as a bug, because to my knowledge it is
cunning urchin
- Fated Persuasion: after using it, you will now always be offered at least one new selection
From March 17.
If you ever do get the same 3, it's a bug, yeah.
grave tapir
okay thank you!!
gusty elm
hm, that doesn't feel very strong to me though
i can appreciate the approval process thing though
honestly for that you could also make it not consider the disabled option(s) "offered" though
so when you reroll, your one or two options are changed as if there were only 1/2 slots all along
lament coral
when you reroll, the blocked boon(s) are rerolled, too
gusty elm
yeah, i'm aware
i'm explaining how i'd expect it to work if my proposed change were implemented
making it guarantee that all 3 boons are different after rerolling
or, well, just the 1/2 if using AP
lament coral
but the gist is that you could reroll and get the blocked boon
gusty elm
yes, that i'd keep
lament coral
I mean unblocked
so if it was initially blocked, you could get the same boon unblocked with a reroll
gusty elm
so if, say, there were 5 options, A-E, and you were currently offered A, B, C, with C blocked, i'd want rerolling to offer (unblocked) any 2 of C, D, E, with the blocked one possibly even being A or B again
serene isle
Hey, while y'all are here, are there "hidden" tech for Shield/Bow/Rail? (They're my least used weapons so I don't know their tech). I'm talking about things/properties of those weapons that are beyond just what their Specials/Attacks/Dash attacks do.
Examples of "Hidden" Tech
-If you Special with sword then immediately dash to cancel the animation, you can "carry" the AoE Nova with you to a different location.
-If you quick tap Attack THEN Special during a dash with Fists, you do a 1-2 Dash Attack Dash Upper in ONE dash.
-If you dash after you do your Spear Spin attack, you cancel the spin attack's end lag
main osprey
You can bounce the shield's bull rush off of terrain to go really far really fast
Not sure if that's intended though xD
main osprey
Fair enough
main osprey
If you bull rush at the right angle
unkempt pagoda
space zag space zag space zag
main osprey
No matter what you bounce a bit, but with larger rooms (I tested the most in the first boss room), you can angle it (about ~15° iirc) to zoom. You can also go at about a 45° angle to bounce back weirdly. It's internally consistent, but only somewhat consistent between rooms
unkempt pagoda
the special tech for bow is dashing after charging your attack. the effect is that you feel dumb bc it doesn't do anything and you were actually trying to do a real dash attack but got your fingers mixed up
main osprey
Try standing near the top of the room, and bull rush against the wall to the left
main osprey
o7
serene isle
Well Bow and Spear have that same "hidden" tech where you can proc their attacks to go off by dashing
Same applies to Rail's reload
main osprey
Also, if you're really close to an enemy when you use the Chaos Shield special, all of the shields will fly together
Not consistent, and probably will be patched out
serene isle
Oh! I was more going for tech that just works with the base weapon.
main osprey
Sure
serene isle
Aspect-specific tech is beyond my scope
main osprey
o7
serene isle
(For context, I plan on at some point making a video about all these things)
unkempt pagoda
does rail special bouncing off of walls count as a tech
main osprey
I figured. In that case, I don't have anything else for you, I've mostly used other aspects
gusty elm
honestly i wish specials and other lobbed projectiles didn't bounce
hollow mural
any advice for the rail?
gusty elm
in a game with often so much going on already, it just adds an extra layer of overwhelming unpredictability
might be nice as a pact option instead
serene isle
Rail bouncing off walls WOULD work if it was ever beneficial to you for getting around corners or stuff
But from my understanding, all it does it reflect the blast back directly at you
@hollow mural Rail's Attack doesn't stagger/stun enemies so keep your distance. Make a habit of reloading often (and use a Dash to cancel the reload animation!). The special still staggers enemies and is great for taking out groups.
Stay mobile. Shoot > Dash Shoot > Shoot > Reload > Dash > Shoot
Is probably the pattern you're looking for.
serene isle
Rail's base damage numbers (on attack) are decently low, so getting Aphro or Arte on them is a bit dubious
For special Arte/APhro should be ok
You probably want something like Ares or Zeus for attack
serene isle
👍
serene phoenix
family favorite or privileged status in general?
brisk cairn
Depends on what kind of run but at 0 heat you're probably best off with privileged status and building towards it through the run
serene phoenix
and dark regen or chthonic vitality if you have no boss drops?
unkempt pagoda
always dark regen
lament coral
FF really feels better, you don't need to hunt for statuses
and you're guaranteed 25% off FF anyway
4 gods + Hermes
cunning urchin
If your strat includes a main source of damage that 100% applies a status curse, pick Privileged Status just for the potential it offers. You'll only need 1 more curse.
But if you pick something like Divine Strike or Deadly Strike, then Family Favorite would be the more reliable option.
stoic thicket
Correct me if I'm wrong but Heart Rend needs one of Arty's Crit boons, right? Just having the Dash does not qualify?
unkempt pagoda
yeah
stoic thicket
Okay so that explains why I got a mountain of Arty + Aphro boons and didn't get Heart Rend.
unkempt pagoda
easiest to hardest:
tisi, alecto, meg
unkempt pagoda
yes
hearty elbow
Agreed on that order. Weirdly while I was just starting the game it felt totally reversed. Obviously they've buffed Meg recently but I used to find Tisiphone impossible to react to.
cunning urchin
In the Blood Price Update, they've made a lot of small changes individually to no FO, FO1, and FO2 to ensure there's always some minimum time to react to any attacks. If you find anything that seems particularly cheap, though, it's best to let them know in #hades-feedback (and mention if it's without FO, with FO1, or with FO2.). 
cunning urchin
Base * [ 1 + sum(chaos) ] * [ 1 + sum(boon) ] * [(1 + sum(crit multi)) * (1 + Heart Rend)]
@hearty elbow how do hammer upgrades, mirror talents, Pierced Butterfly, and items from the Well of Charon factor into this?
solemn pumice
I’ve only cleared the game 3 times but each time I had a build centered around Demeter’s cast and kiting. I don’t know what else to do ;_;
cunning urchin
lol my early clears were all about kiting a lot, too.
Have you tried starting with the Owl Pendant with Malphon and Divine Strike or Divine Dash from her? Ideally Divine Strike.
winter rune
Mine was throwing spears and running, so yup, me too
cunning urchin
I've had a lot of success with Divine Strike + Malphon.
Malphon with Divine Strike > Hunter Dash > Support Fire + Deadly Reversal was the build that helped me make it from low heats all the way to 20, then 32, then 41.
You can even do Divine Strike + Divine Dash if you happen to see a Divine Dash before a Hunter Dash for extra safety. Though, you would be doing a lot less damage that way.
winter rune
Athena really seems close to necessary for high heat
Dash or strike, depending on weapon
cunning urchin
I wouldn't say so. But she helps a lot.
winter rune
For me, on weapons that have to get in there, it really feels necessary, not good enough to pass on her yet
cunning urchin
I don't know anyone who would pass on her on high heat lol.
But it's doable without Deflect.
Anyway, I was suggesting it as a very effective build for lower heats.
Divine Strike + Divine Dash is also incredibly safe on Stygius.
winter rune
Yup. No argument there. On pb attempts it lets me turn my brain completely off and facetank everything
cunning urchin
I'll probably use that or Heartbreak Strike + Divine Dash for 41 with Nemesis.
Probably the latter because I want damage.
green plover
I just got lucky @willow fossil to get that many duos.
Although, I think I even ignored a Duo because it wasn't of any use to the build I was going for.
willow fossil
damn nice man
green plover
I think the game gets actually hard now, cosidering I start activating EM3 next time on fists.
void fjord
Whats a really good rama build
i need to do the prophecy
i have no idea what to use
i asked here before and tried the suggestions to no avail
@willow fossil the area thing, (called aura) slows enemies within it and also reduces the dmg you take within it accordingly to the tier of the aspect
cunning urchin
I don't do EM3 with Malphon.
granite mirage
I went with zeus`s thunder flourish and it was kinda fun for the first time
because rama`s special very quick u can spam it
granite mirage
I think yes because it hits 3 times
and with Relentless Volley even more
but I have not tried hangover or chill its just my assumption
cunning urchin
I don't know if you can get Relentless Volley with, but if you can, it's not good with Drunken Flourish.
7 arrows will still only apply 5 stacks of Hangover.
So 2 arrows get no bonus from your flourish at all.
Other Flourish boons will benefit more from those 2 extra arrows and outperform Drunken Flourish.
granite mirage
Actually u can get Relentless Volley
turbid needle
drunk flourish
the rest is whatever
twin shot is also kinda good but kinda hard to use?
it does massive dmg but is slow af
granite mirage
Exactly!
turbid needle
I one shot hydra heads with twin shot rama and heartbreak strike 🥴
but then I died later so uh
cunning urchin
They only have 500 HP + 500 Armor lol.
turbid needle
yeah they poof
cunning urchin
They also poof your HP with HL5. 
The homing projectile heads are the worst.
I always get hit by them.
unique vault
Max Chiron bow not getting extra arrows on special from hammer, is it glitch?
cunning urchin
If it says extra arrows, and you don't get extra arrows, it's a bug, yeah.
F10 in game to report bugs.
unique vault
Lot of hammer upgrades just don't apply to some aspects. Lot of shield ones especially
unique vault
Charged throw only applies to Beowulf and zag shield.
neon bramble
Makes sense actually
Zeus and chaos would be broken if it applies to them
Particularly Zeus
unique vault
The dashing throw gives no bonus to Zeus or chaos shield
neon bramble
Also makes sense. They should just remove those from being offered
unique vault
They should Cherry pick though. Lucy rail is a nuke launcher with dirty bomb upgrade
Shouldn't
cunning urchin
@dusky hull throw, charge, spin, call are 4 moves.
dusky hull
He only has throw and spin, call doesn't count, because Asterius has more moves when at the first hp threshold.
Although, if I remember correct, Asterius has the same amount of moves at the 2nd threshold, though they're changed a bit.
neon bramble
I believe he also has a dash strike that comes out every once in a blue moon
dusky hull
And I'd barely call charge a skill, because it needs Asterius to be alive.
neon bramble
Theseus, that is
green plover
I think that's their 'combined' move.
dusky hull
yeah
green plover
Just noticed it in my latest run.
granite mirage
Guys can u please tell how to properly use zeus`s shield aspect because I just don't understand it nor how to use special nor which boons to pick so this special was something i wanted to use
neon bramble
The best way to use Zeus aspect is don't
granite mirage
ahahha
neon bramble
But seriously... It's a tough aspect to utilize optimally
green plover
I feel like Rail's attack is pretty underwhelming....
neon bramble
Which rail?
green plover
I guess any except the 4th.
neon bramble
Hestia is ridiculous
green plover
I tried to use it, didn't go well.
neon bramble
One shot hits for 1300 damage
weak rivet
All rail attack can be nuts w the right boons
neon bramble
With Artemis
weak rivet
I remember having zeus and support fire and delta chamber and increased attack speed and it was the most fun ive had in a while
BRRRRERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
green plover
I feel the biggest catch for me is that it doesn't stagger.
green plover
Like, I'm planted in place, I'll get hit from somewhere else if I just haha brr anyway.
weak rivet
I mean its + 60% if you just drop a bomb on yourself
Easier to trigger than Hades Varatha's Punish
green plover
I get that each hit doesn't stagger, but maybe every 3rd or 5th consecutive hit should, imo.
neon bramble
You know you can dash around while shooting, right? @green plover
green plover
I know.
weak rivet
You can also dash through a landing bomb to get that sweet eris bonus on ya
green plover
I think I felt this issue more because I just used Malphon before this.
weak rivet
And avoid being wrecked by whatever you originally aimed at
Yeah the weapons are super different
And the rail takes getting used to
green plover
It feels like it has similar attack range/rate but staggers enemy each hit.
green plover
I'm just having trouble utilizing attack. I love the special.
neon bramble
Explosive shot does stagger a bit, FYI
but you can always put Poseidon on attack
It basically staggers
green plover
But I feel like other weapons do sort of stunlock enemies without any hammer upgrades, which isn't the case with the Rail.
neon bramble
Because you have more mobility and range with the rail
You can't run and gun with anything else
Not in the same way as you can with the rail
turbid needle
most ranged attacks not staggering is kinda balancing the game tbh or else they would be better than melee
you can work around by just keeping distance
rare topaz
I think the ranged attacks I haven't seen stagger for the most part are most casts and rail and bow attacks. Swear I've seen some stagger though.
green plover
I'm mostly sure Bow special staggers.
rare topaz
Melee does have higher breach though.
@green plover Same here, hence attacks. Pretty sure Rail's does the same?
green plover
I think Bow's special can be used to stunlock, unlike Rail's but I'll try and work with the Rail using whatever advice the peeps above have given me.
rare topaz
Bow's special does have that capability yes, though not exactly a stun lock per se. Breach isn't all that reliable.
Have you unlocked aspects?
green plover
Like I said, this issue with Rail only got highlighted for me after I used Malphon to stunlock some rats in Styx. Each weapon is different I'll have to get used to it.
turbid needle
bow special doesnt stagger
turbid needle
maybe chiron is different?
rare topaz
And stopped a few in their tracks after using special with Hera.
turbid needle
rama special and normal bow special dont stagger iirc
huh
maybe im mixing this up 🤔
rare topaz
Maybe I am xD
turbid needle
I cant go ingame rn so
green plover
And I also realised this run, I tried MM, Asterius miniboss doesn't get any benefit from that?
neon bramble
Nope
green plover
That's nice.
turbid needle
spear throw staggers?
neon bramble
Yes
green plover
So I sorta got around MM in Elysium.
turbid needle
aight
I guess more ranged attacks do stagger than ones that dont
but they are all slow so its oke
untold quiver
Yesterday we were discussing Dio special for Rama, I finally had it come up...it was smoooooooooth
I love now that sgg acknowledges how brutally annoying flame wheels are that they give you a chance to pay to not fight them
green plover
Yeah, EM3 is brutal.
Thankfully I had the Shield to pull it off.
And something else that is much, much, much (times infinity) more brutal is Charon.
winter rune
His moveset is sort of simple, he just punishes mistakes very hard
hearty elbow
oh i have the FO2 Chiron fight on lock i think
winter rune
And hurts like several trucks taped together to form a bigger truck
hearty elbow
EM3 FO2 is still kicking my butt
cunning urchin
Wish I actually had time to fight Charon lol.
hearty elbow
we need EM4 and 5 for dad and charon :3
cunning urchin
I'll pass on EM4. I'd have to grind out the fight from scratch again.
hearty elbow
I think Haelian made the suggestion to SGG to make Charon shop and boss fight to pause the timer. But it's worth adding to the feedback list though too
cunning urchin
Yeah, we've had feedback about that a few times.
It's not really worth the risk either way if his swings do 100 damage.
hearty elbow
i trivialized a tartarus chiron the other day with Arthur since I started heartbreak strike and abyssal blood (failed experiment overall i think but i was funny for that fight)
lament coral
SGG won't even stop the timer once you've cleared the room, no wonder they won't do it for an optional boss fight
green plover
His moveset is sort of simple, he just punishes mistakes very hard
Harder than daddy.
No regrets typing that sentence.
lament coral
he doesn't really punish anything, he just deals more damage
there's enough downtime between oar swings to just dash towards him twice, avoiding the damage
if you mess up tho, that's a hundo out the window, or a DD in case of Guan Yu/Cursed Slash
green plover
That was my first Charon fight. I'll probably be able to manage him next time.
lament coral
my first fight against him was with Guan Yu in Tartarus
I dropped all DDs and died
I haven't died to him since
he's very fair
only thing that sort of annoys me is the wave he shoots out of himself, cause it tends to bounce in weird patterns
green plover
Well, I believe there's also the skill factor I suppose. I'm idk, maybe average at the game.
Still lose DDs randomly.
Although with just above 50 runs I think I have decent experience now.
turbid needle
I dont think I beat charon yet so
but I also cant fight him at high heat theres that
green plover
I had the Shield. I played like a baby.
turbid needle
need to extra grind for that guy
green plover
Shield is ez win, yeah.
hearty elbow
yeah, of all the fights, oddly I think EM1, 2, 3 actually test your capacity to operate in chaos reactively. Dad and Chiron kind of remind me of Nightmare King Grimm from Hollow Knight
still one of the hardest fights, but it's just a dance instead of a boss-fight-fight
lament coral
naw, Grimm was a bigger pain
hearty elbow
i meant in design
lament coral
Grimm was borderline Radiance level or pumped Zote
hearty elbow
Really? He kind of reminded me of playing DDR when I was younger. Hard, but always the same, and no "reacting" per se. He asked you to do a move and you did it
hearty elbow
Yeah I do agree with that
Dad though, minus his adds, has very quick but physically reactable attacks that offer a small window to attack, followed by a huge invulnerability phase
lament coral
yeah, you have to move around Hades a lot
that's definitely a Radiance level threat
and with max damage and FO2, Absolute Radiance
hearty elbow
Radiance 1 maybe. This game hasn't got anything on Absolute level
lament coral
that alone pumps the fight massively
with FO2 and max damage on top, you're in for a world of hurt if you don't hussle
hearty elbow
sometimes i take like nothing and some fights i was certain the actual effect of the pots was that I would lose a DD
lament coral
ye ye
fortunately, unlike in Hollow Knight, you can avoid being one shot by vases with Athena's foot boon
hearty elbow
i think i've taken that once for the prophecy
lament coral
unfortunately, there's no Shaman Stone or Quick Cast or Abyssal Shriek in Hades
hearty elbow
is it additive or multiplicative with the trap pact?
lament coral
multiplicative
hearty elbow
that's crazy
maybe i will take it incoming to styx lol, especially if i don't have divine dash
i assumed it was additive, like everything else, and i was like... thanks Athena. +400 - 75 = still dead
lament coral
naw
the heroic version is 90% reduction
so with 400%, you only take 15 damage
otherwise, 150
hearty elbow
that's kinda sick. I've just gotten used to trap = DD with GY
lament coral
yeah, trap heat was one the first modifiers I used and it's kinda been the default since
it quickly teaches you trap avoidance
except for lava, can't avoid that crap
hearty elbow
i took it off when i was learning FO2 because it was a lot of spam dashing everywhere and praying (... honestly that's still kind of my approach with poison dart satyrs)
lament coral
Broken Spearpoint helps vs poison cause the poison will trigger it before dealing any damage
hearty elbow
i am not a fan of off-screen unreactable mechanics
lament coral
allowing you to rush to a fountain before you lose any HP at all
hearty elbow
Yeah but not wearing Acorn against high heat daddy feels adventurous
hearty elbow
though i haven't tried the 40-heat area yet, so i haven't had to play with tons of approval process or routine inspection yet
lament coral
I haven't bothered going past 32
hearty elbow
working... badly at getting every weapon to 32 heat min
i got bold after I did Chaos shield a while back and then quickly realized that taking damage hurts and this would be harder than i thought with other weapons
gleaming current
To not use RI and AP you need to max out HL, LC, and maybe even DC
hearty elbow
hmm, playing around with the heat setups, I guess I should probably start learning the Stubborn Defiance playstyle for that then
lol, i'll start working on that project after I can reliable kill EM3 FO2 without losing a defiance+
Does Lucy's Greater Inferno hammer have a use?
lament coral
that the big boom one?
hearty elbow
no it's the radiate +"250%" damage in a larger area one
i do not know what that number is, but it appears to tick for 50
lament coral
are you sure that doesn't increase the explosion radius, too?
neon bramble
It's +250% blast radius
lament coral
could've swore it looked bigger
neon bramble
Not damage
hearty elbow
Your Igneous Eden Hellfire radiances +250% damage in a larger area. about to try it, but i don't recall doing 350 for a single bomb explosion with this thing on. it does do passive radiating damage for just being on the ground though, which is what i think it's multiplying
radiates*
lament coral
if it doesn't increase the explosion radius, I'd say it's not particularly hot
gilded knoll
but laying down a radiating mindfield of charm makes everyone love me 😦
hearty elbow
yeah, still 100, vaugely increased the radius by what appears to be 50% radius? (not sure on that), but does 50 damage/sec to nearby enemies
lament coral
eh, big boom is ok-ish
hearty elbow
does do anything to make bomb useful in Asphodel lol. i swear it's like winning the lottery whenever you blow up the bomb jumpy guys
doesn't*
lament coral
though since you can get the one that gives MASSIVE AOE and does self-damage with a 200% damage increase, it's kinda eh
and it's neutral, too
hearty elbow
omg that one is so fun
and actually kinda sick
i have no idea how good it is, i'm automatically in mental meme space when i pick it
gilded knoll
Getting that and the slow is amusing
neon bramble
Hazard bomb is probably my least favourite hammer
rare kayak
i turned down the heat for a casual run
and man i forgot what it was like living in a dc0 world
hearty elbow
especially with no stagger weapons
am i crazy or did they nerf Lucy + Zeus attack? I haven't done it in a while. I don't remember it taking this long to kill stuff
stoic thicket
DC is only really a problem with slow weapons. Anything fast eats through DC in an instant anyway.
timber sparrow
Does anyone have any tips for using the bow effectively? Any aspects better than others? Any boons synergize really well with the bow? I'm struggling with it more than any other weapon.
winter rune
Bow is sort of underwhelming right now. That said, chiron or rama do pretty well for me
hearty elbow
my best results with rama are with Dio special + aphro attack
winter rune
I go chiron and aim for poseidon special, usually
timber sparrow
I've noticed the bow is pretty weak comparatively.
I'll have to try both of those. ^^
winter rune
Poseidon special and zeus duo. feels greaaaaat
timber sparrow
Right now I'm in the mind of why use any other weapon when you could just use ||Excalibur.||
winter rune
It relies on a duo, so that's not gonna be every run, but it's fun enough. Barring that, dionysus, ares, or other thing that works well with lots of hits
timber sparrow
It's so dang overpowered.
turbid needle
u slap trippy shot on hera and go to town
timber sparrow
Ooooh trippy shot Hera, didn't even think of that.
hearty elbow
i would not call Excalibur overpowered lol. it's like top 3 favorite aspects for me, but still.
winter rune
excalibur is not even close to overpowered
especially on high heat, the slow swings will kill you
hella fun though
timber sparrow
Yeah i'm only on like ~4 heat but Excalibur can win runs for me without any boons.
It's just so good. ;_;
winter rune
... kinda tempted to do a purist run
the keepsake that improves your unbooned things
excalibur
and nothing else
stoic thicket
Excal is also so agonizingly slow. So... slow...
timber sparrow
I did it, it's actually really fun.
hearty elbow
if you can stack enough damage reduction boons, it's pretty possible, but yeah i notice a great disparity between my runs with Greater Consecration and ones without
pretty possible at high heat*
timber sparrow
I love going for Athena's call with Excal and just standing there and wailing on bosses.
winter rune
that does sound hilarious
winter rune
... I
Yes.
(I dunno how broken it would be or how bad it would be, but all i know is i want it)
hearty elbow
they can't do it. they'd have to remove the double dash attack hammer from the Arthur pool
otherwise you'd be hitting for like 700 with a basic attack in tartarus
winter rune
Exactly.
green plover
I think this build had serious nyoom potential (Managed to get Curse of Nausea before the Furies and +2 dash in the shop), except I wasn't much serious about going nyoom and it was a 4th tunnel sack.
https://discordapp.com/channels/456889434672201729/725021639506526249/733346943018991716
Could've easily got sub 20 if I was a bit serious I guess.
Idk actually, those who do the nyoooom runs can tell.
hollow mural
nemesis was artemis and athena?
gleaming current
I suppose bows were designed as a tradeoff for range, except you don't really get to utilize it in close spaces with time limits and sturdy enemies
It does work as great as intended if you kite bosses for ages
gilded knoll
The bouncing arrow hammer is what I like to use... I uh enjoy wallhacking I guess
winter rune
Yeah but like, when other weapons do everything the bow is supposed to do but better
iiiiit's a bit of a bummer
Also, does zeus special still not stack with chiron bow ?
main osprey
Limit of 5/second, iirc
hearty elbow
once per cast for chrion bow now
winter rune
:[
winter rune
I honestly think they could remove that limitation
With how undertuned the bow feels
Like if you compare chaos shield with chiron bow, there's really no reason to have the bow underperform at the thing its supposed to be good at while another weapon laps it on its own niche
modest urchin
and then hestia exists
winter rune
Exactly.
stoic thicket
Took the Legendary, it's a Blizzard Shot build. Two rooms later Mirage Shot.
Also sidenote: didn't take God's Legacy.
winter rune
Double checkin before i look the fool, but chiron bow only procs zeus once, right ?
cunning urchin
Thunder Flourish will only proc once every 0.2 sec per enemy.
Theoretically, it can proc multiple times on the same enemy with Chiron if you shoot the Volley at the right angle that there is sufficient delay between arrow hits.
Generally, only once, yes.
gleaming current
Hmm, that explains why electric procs sometimes appear multiple times
Yeah, that's how it works then
cunning urchin
Reading some of the previous messages . . . Excalibur is one of the best aspects in the game for high heat.
winter rune
How ? How do you deal with not dying between swings with how slow it is
modest urchin
you don't have to finish the combo every time
gloomy ice
you can keep the attack chain going with dashes in between as well
gleaming current
Part of excalibur being good is 50 hp, right?
hearty elbow
the dashes help immensely
gloomy ice
Excalibur with Hunter's Dash is really good
hearty elbow
it's about the same "delay" as using charged shots with bow
It's not... that good. The dash attack has good base but hunter dash doesn't pass it's bonus to the extended attack combo pretty sure
i'll try it later to make sure
only the "real" dash strike
gleaming current
Now I want to unlock it, bruh
gloomy ice
its up there with Aspect L on the rail for solid aspects with zero upgrades tbh
strong recommendation
if you are doing low heat farm runs
stuck elbow
the Aspect of LeBron James on rail is fantastic
works with a lot of different boon drafts
gloomy ice
the Aspect of LeBron James on rail is fantastic
Lmao, keeping it spoiler free?
stuck elbow
ye
main osprey
Aspect of Leroy is great
stuck elbow
Aspect of Leonardo DiCaprio
gloomy ice
Aspect of Leonardo the ninja turtle
cunning urchin
High base damage on Attack and Dash-Strikes, doesn't rely on hammers, +50 HP, and all the benefits of Hallowed Ground.
That's why Excalibur is good.
You don't need anything to make it work. Just one good Attack boon, and you're good to go.
gleaming current
Good attack boon is still something to make it work tbf, buuut that's just a nitpick
cunning urchin
Chaos Aspect only needs a good Flourish. Beowulf only needs Charged Flight and practically any Flourish. Hestia only needs Attack. Etc.
stuck elbow
Arthur definitely gets away with it most imo
due to how stacked all the benefits are out of the gate
cunning urchin
Good attack boon is still something to make it work tbf
At those extreme heats you have a seed for the first boon or hammer anyway, so that's taken care of.
winter rune
I'm taking your word for it, honestly
I'll need to get more used to it, i suppose
Also, how do you seed runs exactly ? Wait for a great seed, give up then replay it ?
stuck elbow
yeah, the Legendary/4th aspects are sometimes an acquired taste
cunning urchin
You don't even need to take my word for it. Wriste13 did 46 Heat with it—WR at the time. I think that speaks for itself.
stuck elbow
kinda, fights also affect rewards. More specifically casting at doors
so wait for a strong start and start modifying what early Tartarus gives you
for as strong a start as possible
cunning urchin
Also, how do you seed runs exactly ? Wait for a great seed, give up then replay it ?
Yeah, you just die until you find a good seed, then back it up (in case you mess up during your attempts and forget to Give Up), then just Give Up when you die in your attempts.
kinda, fights also affect rewards. More specifically casting at doors
so wait for a strong start and start modifying what early Tartarus gives you
for as strong a start as possible
Nah, there's no routing at 40+. We take the first boon or hammer, and that's it.
stuck elbow
that 40+ heat life taking no prisoners
hearty elbow
!!! progress woooo. never killed EM3 without taking damage before (had acorn... so not as impressive lol)
cunning urchin
I mean, you could route the first few rooms, but that's not gonna be added to the spreadsheet if it's obvious.
turbid needle
the window is rly big you can do it until the house of hades loads
gleaming current
Esc doesn't open pause in the animation 
turbid needle
I play on pad and just press start
main osprey
Wait, y'all can pause during the death animation on controller?
dry ember
Erm yeah
main osprey
That's some BS
cunning urchin
Maybe your Esc key is busted. 
dry ember
Black screen? Smash that start button
dry ember
Hit that give up button and enable notification so you can have a bell when new videos come out
Oh wait
turbid needle
on 40+ I usually die until I get some starting boon I can work with anyways
stuck elbow
follow on social media for the latest Olympian drama
dry ember
I am a seed collector
cunning urchin
on 40+ I usually die until I get some starting boon I can work with anyways
And then you die?
dry ember
Send seeds my way peasants
stuck elbow
Have Pumpkin Seed
turbid needle
not bad
stuck elbow
you farmer
gleaming current
I usually just try in hopes I get good stuff mid tartarus
Because if i dont i die on furies anyway
turbid needle
I legit lose motivation if I dont get the base attack or flourish I want on 40+
dry ember
If you are still looking for stuff in Elysium on high high heat
I got news for ya
I legit lose motivation if I dont get the base attack or flourish I want on 40+
@turbid needle just use seed bro
gloomy ice
tbh I wonder what the distribution of deaths looks like per heat level
turbid needle
yeah I should save my good seeds
turbid needle
elysium has the most for me def
gleaming current
Last few rooms will spike deaths from timer indeed
cunning urchin
If I'm still looking for an Attack in Asphodel, I'm not looking for Divine Dash . . .
I want to be looking for Divine Dash by then.
dry ember
I bet Elysium has a ton of deaths
@gloomy ice my guess is 40% in Tartarus, 10% in Asphodel, 35% in Elysium, and 15% in Styx
cunning urchin
It's mainly just been Elysium for me lately.
turbid needle
when I get through elysium I usually make it all the way
to hades at least
elysium is def the biggest roadblock
dry ember
The cow hurts
cunning urchin
Asterius sometimes, sometimes both of them, sometimes some stupid attack from off-screen.
turbid needle
honestly some indicator for off screen attacks would be epic
deadcells has this iirc
stuck elbow
tbh I'd almost wager the Styx's deaths are a lot more lopsided due to how the tunnels can really mess up runs
turbid needle
but the game already has so much visual noise I wonder if it'd just drown
gleaming current
If I manage to miss archer marks, likely it will drown
stuck elbow
I'd take it as a toggle option maybe
turbid needle
archer marks are bad bc you usually look at the opponent and not at zag imo
hearty elbow
little dots or whatever to indicate enemy position off screen would be fine i think. They don't have to be very loud, and yeah, they could be toggled
turbid needle
if its something you can look out for easily it might be fine
cunning urchin
I think the Temple of Styx is harder than Elysium. The minibosses can be scarier than EM3.
hearty elbow
the non-boss room that spawn 4 or 5 elite dart throwers usually just taxes me a dd
turbid needle
snake stones...
gleaming current
Tbh while temple of styx definitely feels more oppressive than elysium, for some reason it never caused major deaths to me
hearty elbow
blinky, speedy snake stones are also a massive pain
gleaming current
Maybe because elysium is still gatekeeping really bad builds
turbid needle
styx always felt awful with rama for me because you really need stagger there imo
hearty elbow
i'd be okay with Asphodel being 30% harder and elysium being 10% easier
turbid needle
but generally I die less in styx still
gleaming current
Maybe not 30% for aspho, but some extra would be nice
stuck elbow
Satyrs are also a massive pain imo
like not as threatening as some stuff there
but super annoying
hearty elbow
satyrs are only toxic (heh) when the elite speedies spawn slightly off screen but in attack range
gleaming current
huagh poisons you
hearty elbow
they're my least favorite enemy but i don't think they're unfair except in that case
cunning urchin
Enemies in the Temple of Styx have more HP, and the difficulty value of those chambers is higher, so you're getting more enemy spawns. So it's more affected by CP and JS than anything in Elysium.
turbid needle
their noises 🤢
hearty elbow
it's just very unintuitive to dodge their attack, since the projectiles emit almost after the animation completes
turbid needle
well they have a big startup and audio cue
modest urchin
i would like to have a way to reduce our own effects
turbid needle
but I get it ye
modest urchin
less bright and smaller or add some transparency
cunning urchin
Also the traps can easily end a run or eat your SD. It's not as easy as just not stepping on the traps yourself, because enemies will swarm the room and step on anything that can be stepped on.
hearty elbow
yeah definitely agree. the screen clutter with some builds can get kind of crazy
cunning urchin
I don't think it got harder. I think it got easier simply because Bruiser got nerfed.
hearty elbow
anecdotally, i get 2 room styx's a lot less often than i used to. that could mean nothing, i'm sure
turbid needle
the new rooms mess me up
cunning urchin
In Nighty Night, Bruiser Snakestones on high heat were essentially a run ender.
hearty elbow
oh it did get nerfed? I thought i just magically got better and did more damage to bruisers lol
turbid needle
it got nerfed ye
hearty elbow
so much fun with low base weapons like Bow to hit a bruiser numbskull room in tartarus
"fun"
hearty elbow
i was shook when Haelian did 47 heat with fricken Zag aspect
gleaming current
Chiron felt pretty underwhelming without hammers and real strong special boon
Still better than base (not zag) bow
Obviously with relentless volley it's pretty funny
amber jackal
If they're equally weighted, then most of the time the sack will appear before the 5th tunnel. That's just how the math works out.
@cunning urchin
Digging up some history from yesterday, but in my post I explained that the odds actually increase each wing to account for this. Its coded as individual rolls of 25% -> 33% -> 50% -> 100% which maths out to an even distribution.
...Technically the individual roll chance increases as you complete wings, but if you math it out, it makes for an even 25% chance each (since to even get the chance to roll for 3 sack, you have to fail your 2 sack roll first)....
gleaming current
Huh. Yeah then it will be equal between all paths
dry ember
If they're equally weighted, then most of the time the sack will appear before the 5th tunnel. That's just how the math works out.
Actually they are all 25%
neon bramble
They aren't. You have to account for variable change
Each time a door is removed from the equation, your odds go up
dry ember
Here is the math:
1st: 0
2nd: 1/4
3rd: 3/4 x 1/3
4th 3/4 x 2/3 x 1/2
5th 3/4 x 2/3 x 1/2 x1
So no
as unintuitively as it is
if all doors have equal weight (except 1st)
neon bramble
Ok, let's put it another way
dry ember
the distribution for number of times you have to try is still 25%
neon bramble
You're on a gameshow, and there are 3 doors
amber jackal
Its a classic algorithm for randomly selecting one from a set of <object> without storing the full set of objects in memory. You can just do this simple approach and get an even distribution. But of course we are going into monty hall problem haha
dry ember
the amount of time you see 2 sack is 25%, 3 sack is 25%, 4 sack is 25%, 5 sack is 25%
neon bramble
That's assuming it's predetermined when you walk in the room
amber jackal
not the same situation as monty hall
dry ember
That's assuming it predetermined when you walk in the room
Fair enough
amber jackal
monty hall would apply to your chances of correctly guessing the correct sack wing before doing any of them, then giving chances to change your inital guess as doors are struck
random hull
The Monty Hall problem isn't exactly applicable here for the lack of a gameshow MC who gives out additional information.
neon bramble
If the number of chambers is predetermined the moment you walk into Styx, then it is certainly 25% across the board
dry ember
Here is how I frame the problem: You have 4 choices (because 1st one is never the one), what is the distribution of times you guess the right door at 1st try, 2nd try, 3rd try, 4th try, assuming the right door is one of the 4?
amber jackal
Thats actually a good point. In the past it ran the chances per chamber end. Let me double check the code if it still works that way
dry ember
now you are correct in stating I assumed the door is predetermined
but I though it is?
if each door is a "roll" then we will need to build a different framwork
random hull
So you propose that the sack is randomly assigned to chamber before the second entry into a tunnel.
neon bramble
Of course, we are also assuming the devs didn't add weight to any of the possible outcomes
dry ember
that's my assumption
the correct door is predetermined
now Idk if this is true or not
but if it is, then you should see 2 3 4 5sack an equal amount of time
neon bramble
The original thought was that the door itself was not predetermined, only the number of chambers you needed to complete was
dry ember
which is tentatively true in my experience
gleaming current
It doesn't really make sense to predetermine a door if 1st pick is always a miss
amber jackal
so its not predetermined, just double checking if they have any checks to only run the chance once the wing is officially over (rather than rolling both at the end of the 3rd and 4th chamber in the wing)
dry ember
easiest way to test this
main osprey
I see 5-sack far less than 2 or 3, but most of y'all play more than I do
dry ember
is to save scum
amber jackal
its not predetemined
dry ember
the room right before styx
amber jackal
this is already known
dry ember
this is already known
don't want to be too fractious but do we have a source on that?
hearty elbow
i highly highly doubt that the doors are equally weighed. it is probably calculated upon entering a door whether or not it will contain a sack
amber jackal
yes look into the seeded any% speedrun. I did routing in styx
you can change the sack result by doing actions within styx. Also I'm literally reading the code
cunning urchin
@amber jackal thanks!
amber jackal
😄 I will dig into this a bit later. I at first dismissed everyone saying less sacks are more frequent as bias, but it might actually be that way depending on how this logic is called. Will let you guys know what I find later
modest urchin
5 sack shouldn’t even be a thing
dry ember
Preach
with TD2 on relatively high heat, 2 sack is ideal, 3 sack is doable, 4 sack is p tight, 5 sack is praying you have enough HP to tank TD.
cunning urchin
Don't pick TD2 if you're not ready to die for it.
stuck elbow
tbh 5 sacking has killed more good runs than I care to count
like everytime I see one on stream
feelsbadman
gleaming current
5 sack not being a thing will also make some more room for decisions, since you'd always have one optional room that you don't want, just like there are rooms you'd prioritize at first
modest urchin
I would still rather have more people play the game and enjoy it than to have a mechanic that feels bad 100% of the time it happens and is outside of your control
gleaming current
Well, what would be the alternative to sack seeking?
(which is indeed rather controversial design pick)
modest urchin
I think the popular suggestion is to have an item you can purchase for a lot of gold in the final shop to make it a 2 sack or 3 sack
I remember giving that one a thumbs up lol
cunning urchin
I remember 👎ing every feedback whining about 5 sacks.
I think it's fun. Most heats you can clear perfectly fine with TD2 and 5-sack. It adds some extra tension—and elation when you get it early.
If you're using TD2 knowing a 5-sack can happen, and you don't think you can make it if that happens, then it's you who decided gambling it on that was better than using other pacts.
There's no need to pick TD2 for any heat. There are a lot of other options.
And some weapons will be better suited for it than others.
sacred idol
What was the effect of Lucifer nerf?
gleaming current
I dunno tbh. It sure does feel convincing that TD2 is not mandatory to pick up
BP2 had their moments as well tho
cunning urchin
I feel like a lot of people who pick TD2 just want it to be free heat, then complain any time when it's not.
Of course not everyone.
gleaming current
I see main purpose of TD as making the players pay for indecision and attempts to stall certain encounters
dry ember
I agree with most of what you said, but TD2 is problematic because of the uneven distribution. I can slack off in Tartarus and Asphodel while dreading every second in Elysium and Styx. So 5 sack isn't the cause of the problem, it's a symptom. As for this:
There's no need to pick TD2 for any heat. There are a lot of other options.
Sure there are runs that doesn't use TD2 (51 heat run by Haelian), the vast majority of high heat runs use TD2. That argument is akin to why do you want to use Hera Bow and high heat when you can pick Chaos Shield. Just because there are alternatives doesn't mean you should not fix what is broken with this one.
sacred idol
Isn't it partly just because of how absurdly tanky Elysium is?
dry ember
tanky enemies, wide open area, exalted has 2 lives, bosses are extra tanky
12 chambers in total
a lot of things are packed into Elysium which makes it very tight for TD
sacred idol
The second exalted life isn't that durable, but the enormous tileset and the main enemy layer being... ridiculously beefy
gleaming current
I find myself trying to squish into each free room in elysium simply because otherwise it takes long to fight enemies off even for decent reward
even midshop with no money is worthy step
sacred idol
Like if you've got a subpar run and you encounter butterfly ball prime... abandon all hope
cunning urchin
Well, there are definitely things about TD2 that can be balanced better and fine-tuned.
sacred idol
My issue with it is just that it's not a proportional increase from Asphodel.
dry ember
In my experience Butterfly Ball is a blessing
sacred idol
Tartarus to Asphodel, enemies are more durable, but it's not as dramatic.
dry ember
I'd rather take that over the cow anyday
gleaming current
Choosing between butterfly bol and asterius I'd likely choose bol
sacred idol
Asphodel to Elysium is yikes
cunning urchin
Soulcatcher miniboss is a fast chamber unless your build is bad anyway.
dry ember
You can companion burst it down quickly
cunning urchin
Tbh.
dry ember
cow has like 12k HP or something, and you need to bring it down to 25 ish %
gleaming current
I don't think many people are annoyed by the fact TD is too tight in general
It's always elysium tankiness and styx sack "rng"
dry ember
per my own experience, I think ball has 5-7k HP
someone told me that cow has 12k HP
or something like that
sacred idol
Honestly, if Tight Deadline weren't the same time for every region, maybe that'd address it?
gleaming current
Makes it rather complex tbh
dry ember
my memory is crappy though, don't quote me on that
sacred idol
Like, it seems vaguely unreasonable for them to be the exact same time chunk when they are clearly not the same in gameplay
dry ember
just let 50% of the time in the previous biome roll over
gleaming current
I'd take it over current situation tbh yes
dry ember
so you have incentive to run Tar and Asp fast
gleaming current
the uneven time distribution that is
sacred idol
either it needs to be longer for the slower regions, or the slower regions need to have an adjustment to their time to clear, or that - a rollover
gleaming current
Time carrying over puts too much load on run starts
cunning urchin
@dry ember by the way, wasn't suggesting that TD2 complaints aren't justified in any way, but a lot of the time it's like . . . people running any combo of JS CP DC with it or just lacking practice to clear that fast etc. and then complaining about it.
gleaming current
It will feel bad to not have optimal start
sacred idol
shorter for earlier zones but longer for later zones maybe?
like, the same TOTAL time, but redistributed
if you're taking that long to clear tartarus your build is doomed anyway
dry ember
@cunning urchin fair enough. Like I said, I agree with most of what you said.
cunning urchin
Like, I think any good sub 20 heat build can clear a 5-sack run with TD2.
sacred idol
also seriously, what's the effect of the last hotfix on Lucy?
dry ember
I mean currently the biomes are 14 - 10 - 12 - (1-5 and Hades) chambers, respectively
gleaming current
It's still rather jarring that one of the "impossible" combinations is TD2 JS3 CP2
The only other one I'd imagine is specifically RI4 combined with HL5 LC4
cunning urchin
A lot of builds aren't focused enough or have subpar combos.
sacred idol
fixed Dash invulnerability persisting after canceling with an attack; range normalized with other Aspects; fixed cases where it triggered some Boon effects very frequently
The range normalizing thing especially kinda looks concerning, because it didn't really feel like a weapon you could realistically stay in that short range with and not open yourself to violent death
dry ember
you can dash and hold on to your ramped damage
cunning urchin
@gleaming current it's not impossible. A lot of people have cleared maxed JS CP DC with TD2 on high heats.
Well, not a lot I guess.
sacred idol
Also, what was fixed with boonstacking
cunning urchin
But it's doable. Just some weapon aspects will struggle a whole lot more with it than others but excel at other things.
sacred idol
like, which boons were triggering at Ludicrous Speed
gleaming current
That's why the captions. It's not 100% impossible, but rather unachievable most of the time
dry ember
Zeus Lightning would be my guess
gleaming current
In theory full 58 combo is possible
dry ember
but it seems like it's a bug fix so I doubt they will tell you specifically
sacred idol
Yeah, was just wondering if anyone played the aspect and knew what was fixed/whether it makes the weapon worse
sacred idol
I honestly can't think of an interaction that felt outright broken, zeus didn't
cunning urchin
E.g., Malphon is excellent at clearing that but has harder boss fights due to range. Meanwhile, Hestia struggles with clearing rooms but is absolutely amazing in any boss fight.
dry ember
I think the reports on Luci nerfs are exaggerated
sacred idol
well, that's the thing.
I haven't played in like two hotfixes with patchnotes, so I haven't heard any reports at all
other than what's in the notes
so I was wondering what the turnout was for it in practice.
dry ember
I played it a couple of times and i can tell no difference
the sample size is less than 10
so take it with a grain of salt
hearty elbow
what are they? it feels "kinda" worse but i can't tell why i feel that way
other than the range
sacred idol
fixed Dash invulnerability persisting after canceling with an attack; range normalized with other Aspects; fixed cases where it triggered some Boon effects very frequently
maybe the iframe part
cunning urchin
I also think RI4 LC4 HL5 is definitely doable.
hearty elbow
oh, i assume the last one fixed how fast you could stack dio, zeus, demeter?
hearty elbow
because i remember lightning with lucy felt kind of like cheating in tartarus. Now it feels merely "this is pretty good"
cunning urchin
@dry ember you'll also still get healing any time you raise max HP.
sacred idol
ngl it'll take a bit of getting used to, the range was specifically what I liked the most
dry ember
Tartarus isn't a good benchmark imo. Most weapons can one shot enemies there.
I might attempt hitless runs next
cunning urchin
And there are still hammers and Guan Yu that can bypass LC4.
hearty elbow
oh i'm aware, it's entirely possible i'm just imagining a difference, but i recall being able to graze across elites and instagibbing them
cunning urchin
Plus, without TD2, you could totally abuse Divine Protection lol.
hearty elbow
but afaik there wasn't an ICD change to zeus attacks
dry ember
@hallow dawn
When buying Deathless Stand (Stubborn Defiance makes you Impervious for longer): the description also says it replenishes a use, even though that's not possible / useless text. That text disappears once it enters your inventory. Probably get rid of that line in the shop.
I am confused about this.
- Deathless Stand is an Athena Boon, not Wells of Charon item.
- Deathless Stand and Last Stand do replenish one use of DD, even with Stubborn Defiance equipped. The key word is "replenish." You need to lose your SD in that room to have the extra DD (which will gives you one DD and one SD for the rest of the run). If you didn't lose your SD then Deathless Stand and Last Stand only give the passive, similar to how they act on Death Defiance talent at 3 full DD.
surreal rover
it doesn't tick down in thanatos rooms and npc rooms, but it does tick down in charon's shop and fountain rooms
gleaming current
^
main osprey
...it also ticks down during the animation where you pick up Charon's bag
gleaming current
Which honestly doesn't make huge sense to me but eeh
dry ember
It ticks down in Than room, too
right after you pick up the reward
this is a recent change if i'm not mistaken
cunning urchin
@main osprey that feedback is just an observation, but you don't say if it's good or bad nor offer a suggestion lol.
dry ember
Feedback: the sky is blue.
main osprey
not where I live
cunning urchin
"I've noticed Malphon Dash-Strike does 25 base damage, and that's . . . that's the feedback. Just wanted to let you know."
"Stygius is a sword."
cunning urchin
Kinetic Launcher?
Is that available on Demeter Aspect? I haven't tried it yet. I don't know how it interacts with it.
You need to hit with your Attack to charge Demeter Aspect, anyway.
So you're not getting much benefit from the range.
dry ember
Isn't that 50 base daamge?
dire wedge
Do you not get another DD from Chaos even when running SD?
rare topaz
You do.
dire wedge
Okay, F10-ing this. I just got offered Chaos' defiance while running SD and it didn't give me another DD. In Elysium. And it pisses me off haha
gleaming current
Probably same thing as athena boons
Have to have SD used up in the room to receive DDs
dire wedge
I remembered that Chaos' boon is unique in that it can 'give' you another DD versus Athena's 'replenish'.
Welp, onwards anyway haha
rare topaz
SD gang
rare topaz
Pfff
gleaming current
SD gang dies twice
main osprey
no defying
rare topaz
SD is underrated.
main osprey
I just die like a real god
gleaming current
overunderrated
main osprey
rated
rare topaz
I never used to run it but now I'm in love with it
gleaming current
just like based but rated
rare topaz
It took the bloody 8888 darkness upgrade and deciding to be frugal and spend 600 darkness over 1530 to be able to have more darkness to spend on the mirror to find out that SD is amazing.
main osprey
okay what the heck
first time using TD
I had about 5:30 left in Tartarus
I'm going into the Lernie fight with over 7 minutes left
rare topaz
PFFF
dry ember
Zagreus: SD Dies Twice
gleaming current
Tbh after seeing that SD costs the same as 2nd DD I did immediately reset the mirror and completed a few more runs just to get SD going
rare topaz
xD
cunning urchin
I got a DD from Lady Athena this morning after beating Asterius on 41 and then lost it 2 chambers later to Speeder + Shifter Flamewheels.
gleaming current
When starting the game it helped immensely
surreal rover
yes
gleaming current
Given maxed out 9 talents are around 3k, that's a ton
rare topaz
I'm never gonna graduate.
cunning urchin
I only need a bit under 11k now, I think, to finish both sides of the mirror.
surreal rover
1k darkness
main osprey
also...
surreal rover
a ton
main osprey
aphodel...
rare topaz
aphodel
main osprey
I bought a Trove Tracker in my second or third room
gleaming current
Early on it is a ton
main osprey
I still have it
rare topaz
¯_(ツ)_/¯
main osprey
hit hard block hard
rare topaz
cracked
Huh?
gleaming current
Obviously in long run it means like 1/5 of a single reroll
surreal rover
zag shield is quite good now i'd say