it happens
#h1-builds-and-combat
restive solar
raw violet
@cunning urchin I didn't actually have much more to say other than you should definitely note it in your video that it was completely blinded. I can think about it.
cunning urchin
That's a good idea. I could add that in the title, perhaps.
raw violet
yeah, little title brackets or whatever you want
and tbf, i added your RI4 run in because it's equivalently hard, even though I had made an arbitrary cutoff
if not harder
in different ways
cunning urchin
It was a lot easier, I would say. I'm working on 32, though.
raw violet
well, when you finish that, we can update it
cunning urchin
@hollow sorrel the difference is that if you want somewhat consistent runs, and you try every run seriously, then starting with a keepsake like the Blood Vial would give you trouble because you either get Curse of Agony or bust, pretty much—unless you have some strategy that would work if you get e.g. Blade Dash or something instead.
raw violet
I do think maxed RI category is interesting all on its own, but we've discussed that
cunning urchin
That's a big reason I start my runs with the Owl Pendant: both Divine Strike and Divine Dash open strong builds for me, and if I get something else, I still get Deflect at the very least.
hollow sorrel
I thought blind runs would just restart if the "or bust" part happened?
cunning urchin
If you restart until you get exactly what you want, that's seeding, really.
naive tusk
@sudden dagger The only rule is equipping Harpy Feather Duster and having Tight Deadline 2. Once you have both equipped, you can play however you want (more heat, smash or no smash urns, etc.)
hollow sorrel
If the "or bust" means you probably won't get a record time or whatever, I'm not sure what the difference is
cunning urchin
I've carried a lot of high-heat runs pretty far despite not getting what I want for my first boon.
cunning urchin
Well, the "or bust" means that e.g. Curse of Pain is practically useless for Malphon. But Divine Flourish, on the other hand, you can make work somewhat.
hollow sorrel
I guess my other issue is that I've never heard of anyone else mention your "need to actually try every game" requirement of blind runs
sudden dagger
@naive tusk how do I prove I did it? Do I need to record?
cunning urchin
You could still make it if you get Curse of Pain early, but it'd be a lot more difficult. So if I want to have a good chance on every run, then starting with the Blood Vial is not the greatest idea. You get one good run every once in a while, but a lot are problematic. Even if you get the Curse of Agony you want after rerolling, that's rerolls that are gone.
hollow sorrel
I think I need to rephrase my earlier statement. I think if we polled a bunch of people, most of them would consider "repeatedly restarting the game" as blind, as long as each seed is only used once.
cunning urchin
But it's not. It's not mapped, but it's essentially seeded. There's no effective difference in restarting over and over until you get the boon that you want and starting with a seed that I give you that gives you the boon that you want.
dry ember
It's a blurry line
raw violet
you're playing in beta fox, take it to the beta section 
naive tusk
@naive tusk how do I prove I did it? Do I need to record?
@sudden dagger No, just post a screenshot of your victory screen here. I put my trust in you
dry ember
Oh yeah for a break I should try that
32 heat is a bit much
Let's do 25 <3, aka bounty max on Hell Mode
hollow sorrel
I don't think it matter whether or not there is an effective difference. I think it matters of what the general consensus is regarding what blinded means, unless the blinded category is going to include a description so that people don't get confused.
dry ember
Would the difference matter if effectively both a blind run and a seeded run start with an epic attack?
hollow sorrel
Because if you had a blinded category, but didn't literally include your definition, I think people would claim their runs are blind, even though it's not your definition of blind
dry ember
No routing, of course.
sudden dagger
Cool!
Right now I'm taking a break because I drank too much coffee to hold the controller without shaking
dry ember
xD
naive tusk
Take it easy, young warrior~
cunning urchin
Yeah, I've said I see the issue with proving it.
naive tusk
Probably not young, but young in spirit for sure~
sudden dagger
It makes fishing especially hard
hollow sorrel
Part of the routing issue is there are various levels to routing, and we would be able to tell them apart
sudden dagger
I keep getting distracted and then getting normal catch
dry ember
No I don't mean to argue the merrit of doing blind runs or not, I'm look more from 'philosophical' standpoint.
I have said before that because you do blind runs, there are certain merrits to that. I don't mean to take anything away from you.
cunning urchin
Would the difference matter if effectively both a blind run and a seeded run start with an epic attack?
I'll say that AP2 is a lot more viable when you have a seed. If you don't seed, you're gonna avoid AP2 even more or you'll just have a lot runs that are not going anywhere. I mean, you could still try it, but you'd probably look at putting the heat into something else.
So it's just a lot of small things like that.
dry ember
Yeah that's fair. AP2 matters. How about AP1?
hollow sorrel
From a philosophical standpoint, if you were truly trying to "make the best with what you had" every game, you would often take much safer options
cunning urchin
AP1 can be fairly consistent when I start with the Owl Pendant.
hollow sorrel
I was also argue that some aspects would just be non viable if we were actually trying to win every game. Like the bows that are super reliant on specific hammers to be able to beat the tight deadline in the 3rd biome
Why even bother playing those bows, if you might randomly botch both hammers, and will just run out of time because the game didn't bless you with enough DPS to meet the deadline?
cunning urchin
If I try Talos, then starting with the Conch Shell hoping for Flood Shot and eventually Blizzard Shot with AP1 or AP2 is just gonna give you a lot of trouble. It's not really viable. Kind of like a hail mary run lol.
sand cape
i feel fists are great if you can get athena, plus anything else
cunning urchin
I was also argue that some aspects would just be non viable if we were actually trying to win every game.
Yeah, I agree with that.
raw violet
in terms of proving blinded vs seeded, there were attempts to do that with a 32 heat streak by streaming all runs in a row but it became complicated when someone finished a run one day and wanted to continue the streak the next day
sand cape
being able to just dash without inpunity is so good so you can just do a deadly reversal or a merciful end build after that
cunning urchin
Yeah, there's really no good way to prove it online, unfortunately.
raw violet
it's a bit of an ask and barrier to entry to have all runs streamed for most people
sand cape
also would fist be broken if rolling knuckles were how the fist normally work?
i hate that end of combo small pause
cunning urchin
I've said I think Rolling Knuckle is probably the best hammer for most runs with Zagreus Aspect.
sand cape
i won once because i took that and athena's attack, just attacking things and deflecting all
cunning urchin
You won't need it very much at all if you have 5 dashes and Divine Strike. But it's probably helped me the most in most of my runs. But Breaching Cross is a candidate for best hammer, too.
i hate that end of combo small pause
You should cancel that into a dash to continue your combo and keep enemies stunlocked.
unkempt pagoda
i didn’t think this run would be good and then i got black out in tartarus
cunning urchin
Nice!
stoic thicket
Opposite for me, I thought the run would be really good and then I got absolutely obliterated in Styx.
stoic thicket
Guan Yu is pretty nice.
stoic thicket
Achilles can also make a mean cast build weapon. Hades is based around the spin attack and that is awkward to pull off correctly, so no.
random hull
Zagreus Spear Special Spam is still my favorite, simple and effective.
stoic thicket
Zag aspect spear I kinda see working with the right hammers.
hollow sorrel
Guan Yu is my favorite spear because it has healing, even if you're at -100% healing on the pact of punishment
sudden dagger
Thanks for the recommendations!
random hull
Vicious Skewer is awesome together with Athena Special + Exposed.
raw violet
@cunning urchin you might know this, is there are reason malphon upper doesn't backstab?
it's not all specials, is it? have I just not been paying attention?
mighty ermine
GY is definitely my fav spear, but i also really like hades aspect sometimes
dry ember
Spear is my least fav tbh
It just feels so clunky
Except for the GY Special Crit build
mighty ermine
fox just wants spear to be a bow
cunning urchin
@raw violet I'd F10 that.
raw violet
i went back at old vids and it was true in NN too
luckily i had a video of me just wacking away at skelly
cunning urchin
I'd F10 it either way. I never noticed, honestly.
raw violet
okay, as long as we have a consensus
cunning urchin
Might be some odd hitbox issue, like how Excalibur can backstab opponents that are behind you and such.
stoic thicket
Spear is also my least favorite of the bunch, by a healthy measure.
Wasn't fond of the Bow either until the new aspect. Chiron kinda worked nice, but Hera was just not my cup of tea.
sand cape
i particularly hate the sword most of the time myself
rather take the spear and just use specials left and right
stoic thicket
Sword has the Arthur aspect which will almost always just work, if only because of the damage reduction.
The other sword aspects are just kinda weird. They either work really well or are a complete disaster.
cunning urchin
I think all the weapons can be fun.
sand cape
they have something for everyone
livid comet
GY is the only functional spear as far as I'm concerned
and it's also my second favourite weapon now that fists are out
green birch
Guan Yu is definitely my favorite spear too! I think all of the weapon aspects have a place though
Looooove Nemesis Sword
livid comet
nemesis... I guess I haven't figured out how to get it to work for me
green birch
I just kinda run around and hit special every time I finish 2 attack combos haha
livid comet
that's just crit chance boost for like, a second when you special right?
green birch
I believe it’s higher? I’m away from the computer so can’t check
livid comet
yeah
green birch
Think it’s more like 2-3 seconds
green birch
Sword isn’t for everyone, it’s probably my overall favorite weapon though
I have soooo much trouble with Rail
livid comet
shield for me, and fists
green birch
Shield is good! That used to be my go-to weapon
livid comet
rail... yeah...
I somehow managed to get to the surface with it
probably died to Hades too
green birch
Since I’ve improved as a player I find the shield a bit slow to play with now, but that means it’s a good weapon to use when I wanna play Hades and talk with my friends
Rail b hard
And it’s aspects can change its gameplay sooo wildly
gentle dagger
my fastest time was with rail and the 5 bomb upgrade
livid comet
yeah I remember fighting Theseus with it and it was like aaaaa
gentle dagger
i got the poseidon special + rupture and literally shredded everything
livid comet
I need to work on my special aim with the rail
@green birch
I need to work on my aim period
green birch
Ok mood
gentle dagger
im not sure, but i think it was the basic one
got a bunch of special upgrades from chaos tho
livid comet
ah
lament heron
ah fair enough
i just had a really hilarious run
where the game just wanted me to go ranged only shield
literally every boon i got increased special or cast damage
livid comet
which shield
green birch
“Good luck hitting me I’m behind 300 cast damage”
I hope you took the distant memory keepsake to just sell the set hehe
livid comet
green birch
There are 4 shield aspects that change how it plays!
sudden dagger
This might be kind of silly, but I just cleared champions on heat 0 fists for the first time
I think I got a full clear heat 1,
But still, a first :p
carmine rivet
congratzulation!
green birch
That’s awesome! Great work!
livid comet
can I just say that GY has probably the best special in the game
also what's this GY special crit build I keep hearing about
errant narwhal
i managed to clear a run with forced overtime! i only have approval process left and then my harsh conditions prophecy is complete 
thanks to those who recommended i do those runs separately
magic dagger
also what's this GY special crit build I keep hearing about
@livid comet GY with arti special and charged skewer
livid comet
o_0
magic dagger
green birch
Heyyyy great work Alma and Zoom!
magic dagger
This was a prophecy run
I honestly thought I was going to die in elysium, and then styx, but a 45% bonus gold from chaos saved me both times
carmine rivet
Nice duos
sudden dagger
right on
drowsy path
Lets goo ^^
Guys what do u think about aspect of arthur in blades¿
I think that is a little bit op maybe¿ x)
magic dagger
Haha are you saying you didn't have Aspect of Zoom maxed out before you got the quest?
For shame.
apparently this works
magic dagger
You haz egg :cosmicegg:
@naive tusk but no chaos boons😢
livid comet
just trying out the GY crit build
it feels objectively worse than my goto Divine Strike quick spin + massive spin build
🤔
I lost a death defiance in asphodel of all places 😦
carmine rivet
well plenty of time to get a styx kiss before final fight
livid comet
yeah I already replenished it 😄
taking the new talent that replaces fated authority was a good call
carmine rivet
persuasion is good yeah
magic dagger
it feels objectively worse than my goto Divine Strike quick spin + massive spin build
if you avoid attacks and try to hurl the spear between large groups of enemies you deal lots of damage
and remember that you don't ever have to fully charge your charge skewer
livid comet
hmmm
but that means my attack will whiff
here's what I ended up building
I didn't manage to grab a dash boon until styx
hushed ledge
GY spin build feels way harder to get to work with FO
livid comet
FO?
hushed ledge
forced overtime
livid comet
oh yeah, I can see that
but I was having even more trouble with the special crits without even FO
livid comet
weird I guess
probably because I still used special a lot
but the charged skewer threw me off
hushed ledge
nice
untold vortex
noice ^_^
carmine rivet
niiice, support fire on malphon is so good
sudden dagger
Is guan yu good with charged skewer? What else should I be looking for
unkempt pagoda
very good with charged skewer
quick spin is also good with guan yu for easier healing
livid comet
noiiiice
I also got a pb with malphon just now
support fire ftw
@magic dagger did you do all the styx rooms before fighting hades?
sudden dagger
So far demeter's cast is carrying my guan yu lol
sudden dagger
And the chaos +dmg special
livid comet
if you do a standard attack and then dash strike
you do a faster version of the sweep
which does chonking damage and is faster than the usual combo
magic dagger
@magic dagger did you do all the styx rooms before fighting hades?
@livid comet I think so...
also yeah, to use arthur you dash-combo, avoiding dash-strikes like the plague
That feeling when you finally unlock weapon aspects
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/694327507910131714/721541383134904330/20200613184725_1.jpg
sudden dagger
Ugh power couple wiped out two dds
magic dagger
damn that 5 heat bow clear though
just EM3 is all
I didn't post the victory screen bc I got the "no choosing mvp boons on the victory screen" glitch
sudden dagger
Guan yu has very little hp and this makes the game hard
magic dagger
Guan yu has very little hp and this makes the game hard
just don't get hit
sand cape
GY is insane at level 1, but maxed it is manageable, it justs punish big bursts of damage
healing on styx from rats sure is cool
magic dagger
at level 1 you want ice win and a spin build
but as soon as you get it maxed it's special all the way
sudden dagger
It is expensive to max it I have lvl 1
Ice win, ey? Demeter attack?
Either way, moving on!
Trying TD2 for the first time
Harpy Feather Duster obviously
Beat lernie
But I heard Elysium is the hardest for td2
So I guess, avoid miniboss?
What is the td2 strat
sand cape
considering the amount of time i had left for TD1 when i did it, yes, things arent really difficult until elysium
everything seems to take longer there
naive tusk
Hmmm cake 
sudden dagger
Well I used 2 dds to fight theseus fast, but I did it with 39s to spare
@naive tusk you got any tips for Styx td2
Feathwr duster
naive tusk
Oooh....
untold vortex
ummmmm have good dps and hope RNG isn't a booli?
naive tusk
It depends on your build. What do you have?
untold vortex
but yeah depends on the build
dry ember
Pray to RNGesus you don't get 5 sacked
naive tusk
If you have great single-target dps/companion charges, go for 1 mini-boss tunnel then non-boss tunnels. If not, go to non-boss tunnels and leave the boss tunnels for last if sack doesn't appear.
naive tusk
Oooh, then tackle mini-boss last as sack will get rid of 1 of them at least.
naive tusk
Oh yeah, if you have an +armor% damage hammer, go for minibosses 
Their armor will melt down lol
sudden dagger
Didn't get that one :(
I had to choose between concentrated knuckle, the landing special, and one other thing that wasn't great
That I can't remember
I have exploding upper and concentrated knuckle. Not my ideal hammers, heh
untold vortex
you gots this ^_^
naive tusk
Believe in yourself~
dry ember
Don't stop believing 🎵
untold vortex
fishing best game, the escape part is clearly a minigame 
sudden dagger
I got the 2nd sack
untold vortex
sudden dagger
Uuugh I've never fought Hades on td2 or without the acron crutch
untold vortex
you gots this mate ^_^
dry ember
What do you have for keepsake?
sudden dagger
You know
naive tusk
Harpy Feather Duster 
sudden dagger
Sigh, ok, normal Hades fight. 4 minutes is forever
dry ember
I found a "bug" in the game
sudden dagger
I better get health for busting amphorae
untold vortex
that one pot is Link Zag proof
sudden dagger
Ok, I have 1:55 left, and 11 hp. He's at his 2nd form now
hushed ledge
f
carmine rivet
just smack him hard with concentrated knuckle while he's doing lasers
carmine rivet
there's a zone immediately around him while he's concentrated on lasering where you can stand and punch
sudden dagger
That was fun
carmine rivet
ah F. nice job though if that's your farthest attempt
sudden dagger
I'd never done td2 before, so never thought about trying to kill Hades quickly
I'm lucky I got the 2nd tunnel with the sack to have a chance at it
sand cape
TD puts so much pressure that when you dont use it you feel the game just slow down
untold vortex
sorry, your pot breaking habits need to be stopped 😛
dry ember
for science I spent 20s trying to break it
almost died to TD on Hydra
but I can confirm that this pot is indeed made of Vibranium
sudden dagger
Here is the Harpy Feather Duster attempt (if you're not also in #beta-discussion-june20) https://discordapp.com/channels/456889434672201729/715269061386436648/721558399321505813
livid comet
new PB
dry ember
yay
hushed ledge
imo it's super hard to actually ever have anything other than acorn be more effective hp in styx
primal sigil
Ok...where were we
hushed ledge
you'd need to block so much damage with spearpoint
primal sigil
Close. To close in on an enemy
livid comet
I used to always main broken spearpoint through ely and styx
now that I have discovered the wonders of acorn
I main spearpoint through ely
and then acorn through styx
carmine rivet
spearpoint is good against styx poison, acorn is better on final boss
hushed ledge
I use Ely as flex generally
primal sigil
Pivot on topic: is there anything available so far that allows you to look at a lost of boons in game?
carmine rivet
not in game no
livid comet
I so rarely get poisoned in styx tho
primal sigil
List, not lost
hushed ledge
Rn I'm using Ely/ash to level keepsakes
Yeah, it's so rare to take huge damage from poison
primal sigil
They should add something, like a compendium of boons
livid comet
not yet but I can see it becoming an add-on in the administrative room
carmine rivet
oh well actually the prophecies work for that
sand cape
or a part of the codex once you give more nectar to gods
carmine rivet
each god's prophecy lists their full boon list
if you want boons and effects that's more of a wiki thing
especially with how many boons in total there are in the game
primal sigil
In Spire, you can look at all the cards and potions. So I put it into feedback
We will see
Best god and boons in the game. Go!
livid comet
Athena
primal sigil
Artemis
primal sigil
Artemis with the...what's it called. She fires an arrows after every successful hit
livid comet
Support FIre
primal sigil
That is so OP! And I love it
hushed ledge
Best god is probably aphro
livid comet
like fists
hushed ledge
You're rarely sad to have aphro damage
livid comet
@hushed ledge I just finished an Arthur run maining Aph
hushed ledge
So the A4
livid comet
Aph atk on that sword...
livid comet
Actually I can think of a reference for this
MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK
BERSERKER
BERSERRRRRKER
(because you hit like a truck with aph attack)
Also, is there some kind of activation condition for companions
because I tried to use Mort in the hades fight
and it didn't trigger
😦
hushed ledge
Some don't work on some bosses
livid comet
bah
primal sigil
But some do?
primal sigil
I tried Meg's, which doesn't work either
primal sigil
But aren't they all employed by Hades?
carmine rivet
Battie, Mort, and Fidi don't work on the last boss.
sand cape
that means skelly doesnt work for him
carmine rivet
Battie won't work on the first boss
untold vortex
no, Hades doesn't know about Skelly
primal sigil
That's right
sand cape
no one seems to know
livid comet
so literally only rib, which makes sense because Skelly is a stowaways
primal sigil
Skelly, you mysterious jokester
carmine rivet
Yeah last boss is completely baffled when you use Rib against him
livid comet
inb4 skelly is future Zagreus
hushed ledge
You can use bouldy as well
primal sigil
I'll have to try it
untold vortex
maybe bouldy works too I don't recall
sand cape
i love when you use shady and everyone is like "was that a boulder from the sky?""
livid comet
I feel like Bouldy ought to work
carmine rivet
happy dreams!
primal sigil
I dream of Artemis 🤪
livid comet
lel
hushed ledge
Bouldy definitely works
livid comet
Aight time to farm up some dankness and diamonds
untold vortex
ni ni Dagger 
tall aurora
i heard spoilers were allowed in here but just in case im gonna hide what im about to say
tall aurora
|| really love the moveset for aspect of guan yu. but i feel the extreme health decrease plus the fact that the life steal move is abnormally slow is a bit much. i dont think it should be toned much, but maybe just making the exit animation after performing the life steal faster would do some good. as it is right now youre stuck for probably a solid second after the swing. i also dont have too much playtime in the game so i could just be sounding stupid as hell ||
magic dagger
quick spin reduces post-spin downtime
tall aurora
sure but i cant be guaranteed to get that every run
magic dagger
and the uber-powerful special doesn't suffer from extreme slowness
carmine rivet
maxed 4th aspect reduces the hp penalty, but yeah without deflecting on spin it's a bit difficult to use reliably
sand cape
also dont people use the dash spin?
charge and dash to release seem to make it a bit better
it is still slow but oh well
magic dagger
and really, you can overcome the slowness by also using cast and special to clear a space for you before charging
tall aurora
i still think the moveset is extremely powerful but 30 health? as a new player the 3 titan blood each upgrade is extremely daunting. i havent invested in anything else because i feel i need to give myself the best health there first
just doesnt seem worth the trouble unless im doing a low heat run
sand cape
you just need to get more titan blood to make it usable
magic dagger
or, don't take thick skin
that way it's 15 health instead
sand cape
until then it is ok to focus on other aspects
magic dagger
way moar fun
sand cape
i have only one aspect per weapon maxed so far
so i play with those
zeus aspect is definetely terrible without levels i would say
other aspects are ok without them
the profecies do give a nice amount of titan blood to start
magic dagger
10 for clearing with every weapon is a great start, enough to max out 2 or three
when combined with the 12 from clearing in the first place
sand cape
thats 22 titan bloods
then 4 and 2 from other profecies
then 10 from using each of the pacts of punishments plus the runs it will take
tall aurora
idk i only have like 30-40 hours right now and 15ish clears, im clearly only whining about titan blood because im new
sand cape
also checking the broker everytime for the deal of a titan blood for 15 keys
tall aurora
but man after playing with something like || the new gun or excalibur || it just seems weird for guan yu to have such a harsh passive drawback
like, even || beowulf|| might have a drawback but its fairly minimal. not to be overlooked at all but its not nearly as impactful if you ask me
sand cape
i think they were extra catious since it does have healing
tall aurora
true
sand cape
healing in a roguelite is very powerful
just look at the hammers that give healing to the sword and the fists
tall aurora
its certainly not the worst move ever either, the three runs i had with it thats what saved me from dying
sand cape
very conservative
tall aurora
but thats also its only niche and it just feels awkward. like im always trying to ride a bike for the first time
sand cape
the real issue is the recover time
tall aurora
dont wanna get it into broken territory though, roguelites are fun when punishing
sand cape
you feel punish for even trying to use the spin
sudden dagger
Ok so td2 with duster was a little too hard
So instead, I got halfway there this time
With td1 and chaos egg :D
magic dagger
why do I always get spreadfire when I'm running Hestia?
hushed ledge
I'd actually argue that GY is currently one of the top 5 aspects in the game
sand cape
well it kinda still work but it is weird
i feel every aspect should have its own hammers, specially for those that have hammers that dont even work
hushed ledge
Agreed
magic dagger
i feel every aspect should have its own hammers, specially for those that have hammers that dont even work
eris with hazard bomb, for instance
sand cape
and zeus and the bouncing special hammer that isnt being offer obviously, needs a replacement for even amounts
sudden dagger
In order for some things to be op, some other things can't be as good
It is the way of the world
sand cape
just saying, they could still make interesting choices to replace those hammers
i also want weapon and aspect specific boons, but thats asking too much
imagine artemis offering a bow aspect legendary boon that transform your bow somehow
"your special becomes an rain of arrows, your powershot always crit"
sudden dagger
Yeah I feel like always crit feels like artemis more than anything else
but might be hard to balance
sand cape
i think it would be fair, making it rare to get, and bow only and stuff
and a gamble since you cant build for it
maybe it ruins your special
(on a bow, so who cares)
magic dagger
spreadfire is so darn busted
elysium boss gone in under a minute
tiny vermin was the same way
mein gott
naive tusk
Hey, Zoomy! Are you new around here?
magic dagger
I'm Lord Lysol
magic dagger
I decided to embrace my favorite weapon aspect as my own identity
naive tusk
That's so brave of you! I'm happy for you 
carmine rivet
chaos dmg boons are top-tier
dry ember
what tf, I thought zoom was some random bloke xD
carmine rivet
also nice 10th clear with fastest time
magic dagger
the chaos damage boon I got there was actually mid-tier😐
naive tusk
Takes Hestia
Finds Spread Fire
Forgets Hestia exists
untold vortex
that's a mood
naive tusk
Totally.
magic dagger
I used Hestia to snipe occasionally, and also to one-shot skulls
but yeah, that's how spread fire works
freaking spreadfire ruining my hestia runs like that
carmine rivet
i find it really hard to use hestia
magic dagger
dash strike works if you shoot almost a second after your dash
so you can easily get almost double damage on your empowered shot, plus crits
sand cape
after you get used to it you are like "how dare you make me use more than one bullet?"
magic dagger
yeah normal rail makes me sad now
sand cape
there is no way back after
why take normal when i can take hestia and get the extra benefit
naive tusk
I just realized that was the perfect moment for a "Am I a joke to you?" LOL
magic dagger
I genuinely enjoy using Lv. 0 bow
naive tusk
Zagreus Aspect?
magic dagger
right
no bloods
sniper shot feels a lot like always getting crits
if you just dash away after you fire it almost always procs
or, mabe, I'm silly and always dash away after firing at an appropriate distance
livid comet
Arthur sword is fastest weapon to run with 😛
hushed ledge
but iirc 3 bonds forged!
livid comet
noice
hushed ledge
also lysol is in stygian gang 
livid comet
it's a lot easier now that I can just run up to top with golden touch and grabbing all the money I can
so then I can just buy whatever artifact Charon is selling at the top
keen ocean
I just can't get the hang of Excalibur.
stoic thicket
Excal is very slow but very chonky. Dash-attacking is your friend.
livid comet
@keen ocean Yeah I felt the same until earlier today.
Well dash-attacking and cancelling dash into your combo
so if you hit X and then Dash-strike
hushed ledge
how many casts did you get in FB at once?
livid comet
you'll do a quicker wide swing
magic dagger
I just can't get the hang of Excalibur.
@keen ocean dash in the middle of your combos. try to get the final hit in the combo for massive damage
also use arti attack, try to get backstabs,
how many casts did you get in FB at once?
@hushed ledge all of them
livid comet
^
keen ocean
X?
magic dagger
the health bar was full
keen ocean
Oh, controller.
livid comet
X or the square button w/e
hushed ledge
i had two absurd cast runs in a row yesterday
livid comet
and the dash attacks are really quite fast, esp with greater reflex etc
keen ocean
I play keyboard and mouse, as almighty Cthulhu intended XD
hushed ledge
kbm is great
keen ocean
Damn, that's impressive!
magic dagger
kbm is good, but the fact that you can only move in 8 directioins can be tricky sometimes
keen ocean
That's a fair assessment. I'm kinda used to it with isometric games, though.
stoic thicket
Aphro attack is also pretty nice on Arthur, it's a ton of damage plus immediate application of weak for even less damage taken.
livid comet
yep
magic dagger
one was Chaos Shield
@livid comet what kind of chaos shield?
I prefer doom special
livid comet
and stacking frost on it
hushed ledge
yeah for me it's mostly that i feel so much more precise on kbm in general
keen ocean
I tend to do Doom on attack, just because I charge-throw-repeat a lot.
livid comet
@magic dagger yeah I wound pulling doom special as my first boon so I was like welp
keen ocean
KBM means that my aim is better at the cost of movement. I tried it with the controller, and it felt like the reverse.
livid comet
It depends, I end up spamming whatever I happen to have doom on
movement is the more important of the two imo
because that way you survive
livid comet
but ofc I'm on the controller faction
hushed ledge
but I have a lifetime of understanding how to get the most out of digital inputs
keen ocean
I work better when I hit more. Dodging in orthogons doesn't feel too janky.
hushed ledge
I even use a hitbox for fighting games because just having different fingers for each movement direction is so core in me
livid comet
oh man, I should max out Excalibur
keen ocean
How does it scale again?
hushed ledge
aura dmg red
livid comet
+5% per level
+40% DMG red and trippy shot
this space is my absolute domain
although I still got rekt by power couple
wait, so what would you guys choose for Excalibur atk between Aph and Art?
keen ocean
Artemis.
livid comet
I kinda wanna try an Excalibur atk crit build now....
primal plank
stoic thicket
Like I said, partial to Aphrodite because of the smorc and the additional safety, Artemis should work perfectly fine too and nice big pretty numbers occasionally.
livid comet
but Aph prolly better because weakness plus privileged status
magic dagger
if you get shadow slash with arti attack you can get GIGA CRITS
keen ocean
Crits on those big swings are great, and you can still get Ares' cast or Aphrodite's special to round things out.
magic dagger
which is fun
livid comet
I had shadow slash last run...
hushed ledge
Unrelated, interesting thing i realised the other day:
ares isn't actually inherently worse on fast weapons.
it's functionally just a flat +X dps increase, the same as say aphro
livid comet
yeah
keen ocean
You're right about that, it just kinda feels worse to not proc it on each hit.
livid comet
Urge to Kill is super nice too
keen ocean
Feels like you're losing out on damage you deserve.
keen ocean
No, but your brain thinks you are.
magic dagger
ares is less fun on fast weapons
until you also have merciful end, which is the point anyways, right?
livid comet
tell you what's nuts tho
GY crit build with Battle Rage level 5
keen ocean
And you can also hit more times with Privileged Status with a fast weapon.
hushed ledge
but that still doesn't matter!
livid comet
as soon as you proc battle rage once, it's time to clean house
hushed ledge
because it's still a multiplier
40% on 1 hit of 100 is the same as 40% on 5 hits of 20
cunning urchin
Out of the gate, Curse of Agony is the best DPS boon on Malphon.
keen ocean
True, but the human brain is not a rational organ.
hushed ledge
yeah
cunning urchin
If you look at tier 2+ boons also, Curse of Agony + Divine Dash + Merciful End would also win.
hushed ledge
the fact that I had to realise it indicates that it's not intuitive
cunning urchin
Math is rarely intuitive. 
hushed ledge
that's not true
livid comet
wait...
merciful end on twin fists...
as far as I can tell, fists have the highest attacks per second
magic dagger
even better than merciful end on sword
livid comet
pun intended?
stoic thicket
Very much so.
cunning urchin
Yup. 2 out of 3 of the 40+ heat clears with Malphon were with Merciful End.
hushed ledge
it's honestly pretty crazy to me that there's few enough 40+ clears that we just know them all pretty much
magic dagger
mine is 23
hushed ledge
mine is 11
because i lost my win streak at 15 so i just went "welp time to learn stuff"
magic dagger
but it would be better if I hadn't at one point rage-deleted my file
magic dagger
grinding darkness and keys
once I have fated persuasion I'll start pushing heat
stoic thicket
19 is the highest heat run that I've won. 32 I tried a few times but no dice, need to fuddle around more with the pact settings.
hushed ledge
I'm probably going to learn all the large modifiers
and then spike to 32 once i've done that
20x32 
magic dagger
I'm probably going to learn all the large modifiers
that's 23 heat right there, the other 9 is easy to fiddle with
magic dagger
although TD2 is iffy
skip troves, make decisions quickly
pause for really tough decisions
once you know what to expect from the timer, you can add stuff back to the runs
stoic thicket
Yup. TD2 cost me my last 32 attempt and is probably going overboard. I feel I can probably deal with a bit more Hard Labor easier than losing 2 minutes on the timer.
hushed ledge
it's not that lysol
I already do that
It's that my natural fighting style is slower, and the timer is just really stressful in a not fun way
magic dagger
full hard labor isn't actually anywhere near as bad as it sounds
find as high-dps as possible builds
cunning urchin
TD2 is easier than putting the 5 heat somewhere else.
magic dagger
and ignore the timer
stoic thicket
Might be easier for you. I had huge trouble with TD2 any time I tried it so for the next 32 attempt that one's going out the window.
magic dagger
knowing that you're short on time can make you want to play faster, but it doesn't actually make you faster
hushed ledge
If i need to go faster my playstyle will definitely change a lot
stoic thicket
Only 3 heat by the way, TD1 stays.
cunning urchin
3 is still quite a bit.
hushed ledge
so is 8 minutes
cunning urchin
If you keep running out of time, I would focus on your build because that implies there's quite some room for more DPS.
hushed ledge
I haven't tried TD at all yet, and it'll probably be better when I do use it
magic dagger
If i need to go faster my playstyle will definitely change a lot
apologies, I always make the assumption that everyone always crushes their enemies as swiftly as possible
cunning urchin
Yeah, my early runs were like 30~40 minutes all lol. I also destroyed like all urns and pillars and stuff because, well, it was very important!
hushed ledge
I've been getting faster a bit
stoic thicket
My runs tend to hover around the 20-22 minute mark, which means TD2 should usually work but I'm not willing to bet a promising 32 attempt on having to get lucky in Styx.
hushed ledge
but it's still not hyper fast
magic dagger
my 29:30-something run with the fists was with every urn in styx and elysium smashed
for the glory of
hushed ledge
I also haven't maxed all my keepsakes yet so I can't let myself 100% be devoted solely to winning
I have 2 keepsakes 1 room off done and 1 2 rooms off 😦
stoic thicket
Oh yeah, Keepsakes, there's a few more to put some work into. Most notably Than's, that does nothing for me. I cannot avoid being hit for the life of me.
magic dagger
I 100% devoted myself to winning before I had all keepsakes
you can wear silly keepsakes while winning
as long as you're not super high heat
cunning urchin
I would say you can often get the sack in tunnel 5 and still beat TD2 with good DPS at 32. They're really rare anyway. The pacts that most slow you down are Jury Summons, EM3, Calisthenics Program, and Damage Control. So avoiding those makes TD a lot easier.
hushed ledge
EM3 is only 1 less heat than TD2
stoic thicket
Damage Control can work if you aren't dependend on the first hit being a big one.
But I fully agree, Jury Summons + Calisthenics Program are a no-no, EM3 I'm iffy on. I feel like I'll likely have to take either one of EM3 or TD2.
magic dagger
taking both, if you can, makes it just that much easier
dry ember
cunning urchin
I had DC2 on all my high-heat Malphon runs. But I've been working on Routine Inspection 4 at 32 heat, and DC has been difficult with that. Not getting damage on your first 1-2 hits adds up over a whole run even with a fast-hitting weapon.
dry ember
Bruisers got me like
magic dagger
wow my internets suck too much to watch that right now
dry ember
you can't see it?
cunning urchin
The only issue I see is that you have no Attack boon.
You're not supposed to dash away from them when they attack when you have Divine Dash.
Dash into them for that sweet Deflect damage.
hushed ledge
I wonder if you had time to cast into them
athena cast is a lot of damage
switch those dashes for casts
dry ember
lol this is from a while ago
hushed ledge
ah fair
magic dagger
athena cast is a lot of damage
@hushed ledge that's zeus cast
dry ember
What you didn't get to see is prior to that, I spent literaly 1 min 15 s killing the 2 waves before that
hushed ledge
dry ember
Max JS max CP Bruisers are silly
stoic thicket
Athena cast is usually a pretty good one to pick if you don't really have anything better to do with your cast slot. Poseidon is in the same category I feel like, those two will just do their thing without interfering or making the use awkward.
dry ember
also we need Hades meme vids
hushed ledge
Hades combo videos
hushed ledge
artemis rush kick is literally just flash kick visually and I love it
(also i haven't played normal spear on FO2, if it can't infinite that makes me sad lol)
dry ember
I relate more with the videos where things got derailed right off the bat xD
magic dagger
Poseidon is in the same category I feel like,
it can be a huge deal, especially with rupture and/or blizzard shot
big damage in an area, with knockback and maybe wallslams is no joke
cunning urchin
Yeah, but those are your own videos. Of course you'd relate.
hushed ledge
poseidon has a larger impact on how you play generally
athena is just high damage, has some small utility for projectiles, and large aoe
cunning urchin
Blizzard Shot is the best cast in the game.
magic dagger
I always make opportunities to cast when I have flood/blizzard shot
dry ember
I haven't seen a Victory screen in so long T.T
stoic thicket
Oh, you can totally make an amazing build around Posi's cast, absolutely. What I like about it though is that you can just take it even without any further upgrades and it's still a very good cast that will work plenty fine just on it's own.
cunning urchin
Yes.
stoic thicket
Go Heat 0 and just absolutely clobber stuff, Fox. Just for the carthatic release.
dry ember
Sounds like a crutch
cunning urchin
Do that on 20 heat or something. Works just as well.
hushed ledge
go heat 0 and just meme
magic dagger
go heat zero in a fresh file
stoic thicket
FoxHope 2020: "Anything that has a remote possibility at maybe helping you beat the game is a crutch."
dry ember
lol
dry ember
I'll just go RI4 in which case
dry ember
ok what is the worst build you can think of?
like super anti synergistic
Eris Hazard Bomb is one
but how do I make it worse
stoic thicket
Build it around Ares dash?
cunning urchin
I'll just go RI4 in which case
said the self-loathing yellow dog, forever doomed to live in the 👸🏽 of 🧤 shadow.
cunning urchin
Feather Duster + LC4. Do it.
magic dagger
Build it around
no. we're not building around anything, that makes it synergistic
we build against our boons
dry ember
Can we ban Nyaa for lack of compassion and animal cruelty please
I might do an RNGesus run
with AP2 and UC
cunning urchin
It might not be the most anti-synergy, but do Talos with Tidal Dash.
That's a lot of fun.
If you pull an enemy and cancel into a forward dash, you'll yeet them right through and past you.
magic dagger
trippy shot is huge area damage
dry ember
thanks for the ideas! i'll do a God run with Ice Wine etc first, except I'll sell Trippy Shot once I get all 3 duos
magic dagger
and the duos with it are insane
ice wine is a bonus 50% damage and makes it instant, ignoring obstacles
scintillating feast is fast 60 dmg lightning bursts around the fog area
the fog itself hitstuns repetitively, and chills if you have ice win
more than makes up for boiling blood
cunning urchin
The stun AOE is nice even if you don't damage anything initially.
magic dagger
There was a time when all of my runs were trippy shot > ice win runs
The stun AOE is nice even if you don't damage anything initially.
yeah, you basically gain control of the area
unarmored enemies are helpless without FO
especially if you're in there attacking them personally
cunning urchin
I actually haven't been picking it unless I want Ice Wine, though.
I value the default cast a lot, and any other cast that has homing.
magic dagger
yeah, it's not amazing unless it's the main focus of the run
cunning urchin
Define high heat.
dry ember
32 and below everything is possible
cunning urchin
I think Chiron is gonna be more difficult than the other options.
magic dagger
dash-strike
livid comet
I've apparently managed to clear with it since I have the Master of Arms prophecy
damn
magic dagger
and learn to powershot consistently from both standstill and dash
livid comet
Chiron happens to be my goto for bow
cunning urchin
Well, in that case it might work better for you.
dry ember
May I recommend Zag bow if you don't find success with Chiron or Hera?
cunning urchin
Go with Chiron if that's the one you're most comfortable with.
magic dagger
hunter's dash and chaos lunge boons make the bow much more effective
lament coral
just Dio cast
dry ember
^
lament coral
don't think there's anything else, really
stoic thicket
And then plonk away miserably until you can reload your casts.
stoic thicket
I've used Hera a couple of times but I can't say I'm a big fan.
cunning urchin
You can see if Chiron works for you, and then you can decide for yourself if you want to give the others a try. Comfort with your weapon can be more important than any theoretical disadvantage that doesn't take into your account your skill and experience.
magic dagger
stygian is good if you get grasp boons from chaos
stoic thicket
Stygian Soul with Hera works super well if you can get a reliable source of additional cast stones. Chaos, Well, Arty Legendary, something like that.
cunning urchin
You can load more casts over a run with Stygian Soul either way.
Even without extra casts.
But extra casts make it even better.
livid comet
that's what I thought
stoic thicket
You're sacrificing frontloading damage for that.
livid comet
also is dread flight bugged with Chaos Shield?
cunning urchin
Unless you have a lodging cast because that will drop if you kill an enemy, and you can reload all 3 pretty much right away.
stoic thicket
Or Trippy shot.
magic dagger
also is dread flight bugged with Chaos Shield?
@livid comet no, but the effects are almost imperceptible
magic dagger
it's like storm lightning, it doesn't force projectiles to hit your enemies
cunning urchin
You're sacrificing frontloading damage for that.
That's not so much a problem. DPS over the whole run will be better with Stygian Soul. Trippy Shot + Infernal Soul doesn't work well. It takes too long to get your casts back.
astral phoenix
Chaos shields either vanish into thin air or hit every enemy in the room, there's never any in-between
stoic thicket
With Chaos Aspect shield it also doesn't work at all for the multi-throw.
magic dagger
Chaos shields either vanish into thin air or hit every enemy in the room, there's never any in-between
I usually back my enemies into corners with the rush and ram all six shields down their throats at once
so hitting one enemy really hard happens too
the only reason for infernal soul is really the hermes prophecy
greater recall or whatever
astral phoenix
If you want to force a Hermes legendary Bad News is so good though
I am still a sucker for recall fog though
hushed ledge
which one is bad news?
astral phoenix
50% increased cast damage on targets with no bloodstone in them
hushed ledge
ah
astral phoenix
Also Scintillating Feast lightning also get's that damage bonus
magic dagger
hermes prophecy, not just any old legendary
bad news is good, but it isn't on the fated list unfortunately
astral phoenix
Oh really?
That kinda sucks
I was actually surprised to learn hermes had a different boon when I first started using stygian
crystal wing
decided to give chaos shield a chance finally
and holy moly its like playing in easy mode
magic dagger
6 specials for the price of 1 is a pretty good deal
astral phoenix
IKR?
magic dagger
250 gems is about 2 runs worth
1 blood is half a run if you clear consistently
so it's usually a good deal
magic dagger
Then definitely don't take the trade
you can get gems later, but the initial bonuses once you can use blood will help you a lot
dreamy fog
How do I open those upgrades?
dreamy fog
oof. I hate the majority of them
livid comet
aaa what does it take to get dusa maxed?
magic dagger
aaa what does it take to get dusa maxed?
@livid comet companion or relationship?
if it's relationship you just give gifts, talk, and buy lounge upgrades
any roadblocks will clear themselves eventually
livid comet
I'm at the very last heart but the prompt to give her stuff doesn't show up
livid comet
no
magic dagger
might be a bug, but do a run or two to make sure
livid comet
magic dagger
I think 5?
magic dagger
if you're not rolling in ambrosia that's your problem, yeah
magic dagger
gotcha
livid comet
I had 4 bottles
I spent them on bouldy instead
rip, time to farm again
;-;
okay, so is it mostly zag or hera for bow?
magic dagger
if you choose heat options that look fun instead of onerously upping it one at a time, farming is a lot more... fun.
dry ember
okay, so is it mostly zag or hera for bow?
Entirely depends on your playstyle
magic dagger
zag bow is my choice every time, because I value having my cast function as a cast
livid comet
I've got 7 blood lying around
dry ember
From personal experience, on really really high heat Zag is more reliable
But for farming purposes Hera is better
magic dagger
But for farming purposes Hera is better
wdym?
dry ember
It's easier to get a "God" run going with Hera
cough Trippy Shot cough
Zag is more reliable on high heat simply because it doesn't need much to get going
livid comet
?
magic dagger
I like trippy shot, but hera bow just feels clunky
livid comet
magic dagger
innate zag crits are nice tho
dry ember
Tldr, either is fine xD
livid comet
so I guess you'd want to go art for zag bow, demeter or dio for hera?
magic dagger
so you can take arti attack for lots of crits or aphro for stronger crits
dry ember
Ideally you want Heartbreak Strike Hunter Dash and potentially Heart Rend on Zag
dry ember
But you can just go Dio on Hera yeah
dry ember
Perfect Shot
Rarely would Sniper Shot give you significant damage
And Piercing Volley is honestly a meme.
Unless you are running Chiron
livid comet
note that I'm super bad at landing power shots, especially with the dash attack
dry ember
It's a good chance to learn then :D
livid comet
oof
hushed ledge
i'm the opposite, i can't land non dash power shots because I learnt when DA was the same as normal attack
except just faster
dry ember
I mean honestly Sniper Shot won't give you much anyway, so not like you are missing out.
magic dagger
note that I'm super bad at landing power shots, especially with the dash attack
@livid comet legit just spend time in the courtyard practicing the timing until it becomes muscle memory
totally worth it
it's 1:12 AM here, so I guess it's 💪nap time
errant narwhal
having a pretty lucky approval process run, hopefully this is the one
livid comet
aight cya 🙂
magic dagger
GL alma
dry ember
God speed alma
triple shot, twin shot or chain shot
Lol nice hammer, twin shot since you already have perfect strike.
errant narwhal
i did it! :D and apparently it was my 50th clear
untold vortex
Ayyy congrats
untold vortex
Ayyy niceu
hushed ledge
the hammer is awful tho 😦
piercing volley, relentless volley or flurry shot on hera
all suck
untold vortex
hushed ledge
guess it's relentless time
turbid needle
hushed ledge
i took pos special unfortunately
stoic thicket
Man, going into a Hades fight with 3 DDs and full on 250 life and still losing kinda hurts. I might be really bad.
Zag aspect Spear with a special build, and that one's entirely on me. I just couldn't dodge his swings for the life of me.
dry ember
Have you tried not getting hit?
cunning urchin
Don't be rude.
dry ember
You went all the way from beta discussion to here just for that?
stoic thicket
I have tried gitting gud, but it was apparently in vain.
hushed ledge
The pact is yelling at me for using too much heat lol
"heat gauge greatly exceeded"
cunning urchin
It be like that.
hushed ledge
Omg if it's all the way over
oops
I managed to get myself muted lol
I'm trying TD1 rn
cunning urchin
Good luck!