But fists is another story
#h1-builds-and-combat
dry ember
dry ember
I've been running double AP
I'll send setup later
Nyaa setup is p good
But I wanted my own lol
raw violet
i think my 45 set up allows for only 1 AP
cunning urchin
I tried AP2 once to avoid EM3. It's too inconsistent.
raw violet
regardless of what her heat set up is, even a couple heat increase is gonna be painful
cunning urchin
If you look at my HP at the end and in some encounters, I'd have died on 42 heat.
raw violet
i've been thinking of running thanatos just for TA fight
in the few runs i've done, i've found him more reliable at hitting both, but maybe i was lucky
cunning urchin
I wouldn't be surprised if Than misses one or both of them.
hushed ledge
TA is third boss?
raw violet
it's been so long, i don't remember my settings so maybe i'm remembering wrong
cunning urchin
I still like Bouldy a lot with -25% healing.
stoic thicket
Due to rounding in the player's favor Bouldy is only affected 20% even.
hushed ledge
Re: #hades-feedback
Talos fists feels inconsistent in general
Tbh I just want an option to view hitboxes
cunning urchin
I'm pretty sure the pull only happens when the target is a certain minimum distance away from you. It's a bit odd.
I've only used it twice, though.
main osprey
Also re: that, I've never noticed the pull triggering any flourishes
I've put a thing in feedback to be able to see the range of the pull
cunning urchin
Or maybe it's the Dash-Upper that doesn't have the pull.
Should be easy to test on Skelly.
main osprey
It has the pull iirc
I've never noticed the pull itself not working unless something is too far
cunning urchin
I had Blizzard Shot and Tidal Dash in one of those two runs I used it.
So there was a lot of pulling and shoving going on lol.
Easy 20 Heat, though.
main osprey
I've done a yank'n'yeet (tidal flourish), it's great
cunning urchin
Tempest Flourish on Talos is very gimmicky imo. I'd rather avoid that.
main osprey
Oh definitely, it's hilarious though
stoic thicket
Haven't really tried the yank'n'yeet but I'm intrigued. Don't run Talos a lot though anyway.
dry ember
On the bright side, 32 now seems like heaven
naive tusk
The puppy turned into a howler 
hushed ledge
As soon as I mess up this win streak I'm probably gonna jump straight to 16 heat
cunning urchin
He's trying to one-up me and failing in Tartarus every time. 
stoic thicket
It's crazy how quickly you get used to certain things from the pact. Something like FO2 or EM2 scared me to death earlier, now it feels like second nature.
cunning urchin
Can't beat the 👸🏽 of 🧤.
cunning urchin
My Twin Fists are more elegant than boxing gloves.
hushed ledge
EM2 I've only had 3 runs with and it's definitely more difficult but the fight is so much better
EM1 I got used to crazy fast tbh
cunning urchin
EM2 + FO2 is gonna scare you to death again when you have Hard Labor and Calisthenics Program maxed, too.
hushed ledge
I think a big part is that I got better so I'm dealing way more dps and so the fights are just way shorter lmao
Yeah FO is scary
stoic thicket
That ain't happening.
hushed ledge
That's definitely one of the ones I want to learn early on instead of late
stoic thicket
Have to admit I'm not really all that interested in pushing crazy heat levels.
Calisthenics Program is a big no-no for essentially anything that matters anyway.
cunning urchin
There's just nothing else to do for me with Malphon. I've gotten all the bounties and cleared 32.
And now I guess 41.
main osprey
I just love the image of shades doing calisthenics
cunning urchin
Which I got some Darkness for lol.
stoic thicket
Oh, I get the reason why you guys would do it. Just not my cup of tea.
I want to do one 32 run successfully at some point for that neat statue but let's see afterwards.
Still fiddling around with the heat setup for that, TD2 probably has to go.
cunning urchin
That's what I thought, too: just do 32 and not worry about higher heat.
Then I'd done that and thought what now lol.
hushed ledge
My goal is to eventually get 6x32
dry ember
Viva la revolucion
hushed ledge
(or maybe 20~x32)
cunning urchin
I'd keep TD2. Actually makes it a lot easier because you avoid other options.
cunning urchin
That's one hell of a goal, @main osprey.
main osprey
And I shall achieve it with pride and satanism ^.^
stoic thicket
I dunno. I'd likely rather deal with Underworld Customs than with TD2. The DPS requirements to not outright die are significantly less without TD2.
magic dagger
having good dps is pretty important regardless, and if you have keepsakes and Fate you can force the game to give you sufficient boons, even at 32
raw violet
Taking both customs and TD2 allows you to lax on a lot of other heat settings significantly which can be more impactful
But not always
Everything is a trade off
cunning urchin
Not one of my deaths on 41 was from TD2.
stoic thicket
That setup probably cost me my last attempt. I'll try the next one with TD1 and then make up with... I dunno, something else. I think getting a little bit more leeway on the timer might be worth it for my playstyle.
I lost my last 32 attempt due to running into TD2 on first the Heroes, then on Hades.
Have to say though I haven't done EM3 a lot, so wasn't all that familiar with the fight.
raw violet
My very first run I kept dying to TD so I turned it off
cunning urchin
I avoided EM3 for 32 heat.
raw violet
But the number of things I had to turn on instead made that my most difficult 32 run
cunning urchin
5 Heat put into something else is a lot.
raw violet
Yeah
cunning urchin
3 Heat is still the difference between +40% damage and +100% from enemies.
stoic thicket
Out of curiosity what did you use for your 32 setup when you skipped out on EM3?
raw violet
I don’t think that’s a direct link to the actual image
cunning urchin
Hrm.
stoic thicket
Okay, yeah, that looks reasonable.
raw violet
32 is still pretty flexible with what you can and can’t take
stoic thicket
Can't tell from the image, Demeter aspect?
raw violet
Ultimately
cunning urchin
You can think of 1 point in Hard Labor meaning you need 20% more healing over a run.
raw violet
I did a range of 60-100 hard labor
cunning urchin
Convenience Fee is 40% higher cost for healing items.
raw violet
It’s sort of fiddling but I don’t think the difference from moment to moment gameplay is all that different
If you’re skipping out on both TD2 and EM3, you’re probably going to have to put those points somewhere there anyhow
stoic thicket
Yeah, I'm very aware I have to bite at least one of those two bullets.
cunning urchin
Still can't make it past Tartarus?
dry ember
Can't make it past Asphodel
Which is an improvement
Bht
The mind is willing yet the flesh is weak
raw violet
What are you even on?
cunning urchin
Have you tried, you know, not just standing there like you do now when they throw those bombs at you?
raw violet
Heat wise
cunning urchin
He's trying to one-up me.
dry ember
Lol I was about to be a smart arse for that question
stoic thicket
Basic run level without any sort of 32 shenanigans?
raw violet
Only literally one up?
raw violet
Coward
stoic thicket
What happened to "heat is exponential"?
raw violet
Just go straight to 49
naive tusk
I don't know the context behind that Mario gif but I love you 
cunning urchin
faints
livid dew
nyaanyaa for your glove build what was your item build? athena, artemtis, acorn, acorn?
cunning urchin
Yeah.
But you shouldn't go in with a set idea for the later keepsakes. I picked what made sense at the time.
I was aiming for Lady Athena > Lady Artemis, but depending on the boons I got in Tartarus, it could have been something else in Asphodel.
livid dew
ah okay
ive been practicing with demeter excalibur but im pretty decent with gloves so i was wondering if i should try something similar
turbid arch
Already sunday, huh? Damn.
cunning urchin
Congrats!
I don't think I have that yet.
Yeah, 77 clears.
You're better than me.
stoic thicket
No, I just play on way lower heat than you.
I've mostly been doing bounties to complete all the weapon aspects and those shenanigans, if I were to constantly slam my face into the 32+ heat brick walls then I'd likely also have way less clears.
cunning urchin
I think there's a decent chance I have the fewest total clears of anyone who has done 40+ heat lol.
I should take my other weapons up to 20 heat sometime.
hushed ledge
I'm at 27 clears but only 5 heat at the highest iirc lol
As soon as this win streak ends I'm ramping my heat way up
But I just want to see how long I can keep it going
cunning urchin
I think if I stayed at 5 heat, my win streak would just go on forever.
hushed ledge
I'm always doing enough heat for bounties
stoic thicket
Same, after I got all the R0 bounties done I did like a handful of low heat runs to farm darkness and get a couple of mirror / pact options out of the way for the prophecies, but otherwise it was always bounty territory.
cunning urchin
My other weapons are at like 10~13 heat.
Which just feels boring when I could be pushing heat with Malphon lol.
stoic thicket
Mine are all 15-16 across the board, I'm playing them roughly equally.
stoic thicket
Just for clarification, Ice Wine still counts as Festive Fog for the purposes of Blackout and various other Dionysus boons, right?
cunning urchin
Correct.
stoic thicket
Does Exclusive Access reduce the chance to get duo / legendary boons? I got Poseidon and Zeus Tier 1 boons in Tartarus, and got a total of 6 boons afterwards from either of those two. Didn't get offered either Sea Storm or Poseidon's legendary once despite qualifying for both at the beginning of Asphodel, and having the +legendary / duo mirror talent on.
untold vortex
I don't think so, legendary/duo boons aren't exactly common even if you qualify for them
stoic thicket
From experience I'd have said that with the mirror talent on getting a duo isn't the biggest issue in the world. Like, yeah, they aren't throwing them at you but they can be fairly reliable acquired once you qualify and get like 2-3 more boons from either.
untold vortex
there's been times where I've qualified for athena's legendary and didn't get it for the entire run past the point I was able to get it (with the mirror talent that increases the chance)
stoic thicket
I might just have gotten unlucky though, who knows.
untold vortex
it's most likely that you just got unlucky :/
cunning urchin
Filling your core boon slots seems to help with Duo boons—and probably Legendary boons, too.
I haven't looked into the exact RNG mechanics, though.
stoic thicket
Ah well, can't win 'em all.
cunning urchin
But the game seems to check for core boons first and prioritizes them.
But exchanges are very rare.
weak moat
gz on the 41 heat win @cunning urchin btw, was a fun run to watch
weak moat
probably just take some time to get there lol
One of my buddies is working on 49 with fists using dio on attack
untold vortex
49 heat seems insanely difficult 
weak moat
it'll be a task
haelian will be working on 49/50 heat today
think 49 is doable on fists though?
or even 48
highest we have recorded is your 41 atm
so there's a lot of room to push
cunning urchin
I don't think Drunken Strike has enough single-target DPS for EM3 and Hades. I'd go for something else.
weak moat
could see that as a definite concern
he's come close to beating EM3, though he hasn't faced dad yet
cunning urchin
I can see it working well with Merciful End or the build I had, but that requires very good RNG.
I'll have to watch some of his attempts sometime, though. Did he record them?
weak moat
I think the main idea is to be able to do it without the good duos, at that point
he streams
he'll be on today - streams during the weekends
cunning urchin
Curse of Agony would have way better single-target DPS and still very good DPS in crowds.
weak moat
zat so?
cunning urchin
I'm very sure, yeah.
turbid arch
I do not think that single target DPS with Drunken Strike would be the problem.
Multi Target DPS would be though
weak moat
feel like full dio stacks would do more dmg than curse of agony
hmm, guess agony would do more dmg/second if it's constantly maintained
turbid arch
Agony still loses out in general usability because of blue shields though.
cunning urchin
The more you attack without much pause, the more Drunken Strike would fall behind on 1 target. Not sure about 2.
weak moat
I imagine you punsh through the shields before the doom activates
cunning urchin
I don't think shields are much of a problem with Malphon.
turbid arch
One of these days I will have to do some math on thet myself.
weak moat
or at least that's the idea
turbid arch
True, but you would need that for 60% more enemies than usual.
And Elysium swarms you like crazy.
weak moat
I was interested to see that @cunning urchin was able to handle maxed jury/cali/dmg control with athena attack
cunning urchin
Thank you.
weak moat
although maybe the deadly reversal made the difference? is that kind of time typical?
cunning urchin
That was the first time I tried that build on anything above 32 after I failed my first couple 32 attempts with it.
weak moat
fair
turbid arch
I think that Flurry Jab Spear has a change for a high heat victory too.
If the fists can do it, so can flurry jab
weak moat
well we're going to be working on hades spear next, so no flurry jab for us
turbid arch
I do not understand why Flurry Jab can even appear on the Hades Spear in the first place.
weak moat
yeah it's a little weird
I understand why it's there - nice to have the option
but with double approval process it could end up being a nuisance
turbid arch
Some Boons are just absolute deal breakers.
As much as I love Dionysus, I cry everytime AP gives me After Party.
Which happens much more often than it should.
turbid arch
It comes back, as it does.
weak moat
no bad hammers
turbid arch
I vividly remember one run where I got it twice.
weak moat
even the useless hammers don't hurt
turbid arch
Sometimes, it does not even have to be a "bad" hammer.
cunning urchin
I find Flying Upper on Malphon is actively detrimental.
turbid arch
I remember one high heated run attempt where I got Charged Shot in Elysium.
It is not a bad hammer, but it through my entire gameplan through the window because I relied on charge attack mobility quite heavily.
Is flying upper the one that sends you flying towards enemies?
weak moat
yeah shield would have that issue with the charged shot
turbid arch
It is hilarious on low heat, but suicidal on high heat.
cunning urchin
Yes, it sends you flying after charging for a year.
Your instant Upper will have 0 range.
turbid arch
If I'd get a run with charged shield first hammer and stick with that, I think I could make some things work.
But I don't even want to think about that any further.
cunning urchin
Like, it will miss enemies literally right in front of you.
turbid arch
For this update, 46 heat has been the ceiling for me.
weak moat
get those T H I C C attacks
turbid arch
Anything above that I leave to Haelian and you.
turbid arch
I am sure a lot of things can do 50 heat IF RNJesus is on your side.
turbid arch
That RNG thing is always the factor.
hushed ledge
Flying upper has some really large jank iirc
turbid arch
Take my 46 heat victory as an example. That COULD have been 49 heat if I would have cranked AP to the maximum for three more heart.
hushed ledge
On keyboard it goes the way you're moving not where you're pointing
turbid arch
In theory, I could have received all the same boons regardless and made the game work just the same.
weak moat
it does suck a bit with AP
but that's why the goal is to do it on one good boon
which hestia can do
turbid arch
We could also look at it from a different perspective:
Take the safest and most reliable weapon you can find
Go for 52 heat.
Everything is active and out to kill you EXCEPT Tight Deadline.
Win through artrition.
Could do it with Chaos Shield, just hide in a corner in every room and throw out your special.
50 heat if you want to have death defiances.
cunning urchin
Do you do seeded runs for those 46+ ones?
weak moat
I think that's where skill needs to come in. When I hit redacted with Hestia and one dash I realized I knew absolutely nothing about the fight
turbid arch
Depends on what you call a seeded run.
I just find a seed that gives me what I want in the first room.
After that, I just eyeball it from there.
weak moat
^^
cunning urchin
So do you reload that one if you fail or what?
weak moat
basically
weak moat
it's better than resetting over and over again when the game doesn't pass you good boons
or rather
one good boon
turbid arch
Going in blind is something I only do without AP.
With AP cranked up to one or two, not seeing the boon you want first room almost always leads to disaster.
weak moat
trouble is also you're going to be taking a point or two in RI
cunning urchin
Yeah.
turbid arch
On my 46 heat run, I had everything active except for disabled mirror and only one rank in AP
weak moat
so you're basically stuck with what you start with
turbid arch
I am not sure if I could have done it otherwise.
cunning urchin
At least you still get 3 options from shops.
turbid arch
Expensive shops that are rigged because Charon does not know how to do business.
cunning urchin
Oh, he does.
turbid arch
I also did not have the stubborn defiance like Wriste and Haelian do/did, so having some money in the back for DDs was important too
cunning urchin
The more you die, the more you need to buy from him.
turbid arch
Yes, BUT
then he does not sell you the DDs when you need them either.
Charon has no idea on how and when to meet my demands
weak moat
wonder if that'll change with the new update
turbid arch
Today, I woke up in the morning, did some workouts, getting strong.
After that, I took a long shower and then I thought:
"What if we could upgrade Charons shop?"
weak moat
could be fun
turbid arch
Make it a long term thing, the more you spend on his shops, the more Items he will offer, maybe some discounts later down the line, maybe even some special Items here and there.
They should start at ROCK BOTTOM.
You start the game, fresh safe file
He only sells you one Item in his shop and in his wells.
You spend some on him, later it will be three Items in every shop and so on.
One of the later rewards should be a charon well standing in his styx shop ALWAYS
weak moat
that would be neat
sly sonnet
That would make using the charon keepsake useful
weak moat
wonder why charon doesn't keep his wells on them at all times
charon's keepsake is already pretty useful
sly sonnet
I have nevee used it
weak moat
special builds not withstanding
sly sonnet
seems good but nowhere near as other keepsakes
turbid arch
It was amazing before the big bad update.
It heavily fell off afterwards because of how Styx is structured.
Way too many rooms and too little Charon Wells
weak moat
yeah not really worth carrying into styx unless you're high-rolling
hushed ledge
In theory I think you can bring something from Ely into final boss if you get crazy lucky but that's like not consistent at all
sly sonnet
Yeah I mostly use god keepsakes + purse till styx
weak moat
also depends on what kind of heat we're talking about
hushed ledge
God keepsakes are just really good tbh
weak moat
but yeah god keepsakes are real nice
turbid arch
Sometimes I wonder if god keepsakes should be just gone.
weak moat
I'm pretty good with them
hushed ledge
Possibly
turbid arch
I do like the "control" they give you over a run
weak moat
think it adds a necessary option to the game
hushed ledge
They make the game have a unique quality where you can "target" a specific build
turbid arch
But giving too much "control" in a roguelike can be detrimental.
weak moat
it's a pretty limited control
turbid arch
It is control that can then further be controlled by fated authorities and persuasions
What if the god keepsakes, instead of forcing them to appear, would actually give you effects that make their corresponding buffs better?
weak moat
unfortunately, the problem with that is that they can just end up being worthless if you don't run into the god
turbid arch
Then you do not pick them up.
We already have plenty keepsakes that can potencially be useless.
Broken Spearpoint is useless if you do not get hit.
Skellys Tooth is useless if you do not use up your other DDs first
sly sonnet
Broken Speaepoint I use every time I go to styx
turbid arch
And some are just useless in general.
stoic thicket
If I'm taking Broken Spearpoint I do so under the assumption that I will get hit.
weak moat
not sure if that qualifies as useless
hushed ledge
Spearpoint I'll do on some runs
It generally depends a lot though and is super situational
stoic thicket
Spearpoint is awesome for Styx, less so for the bossfight.
turbid arch
Say you have Zeus' Keepsake. It could read something like "Everytime one of your lightning effects hits an enemy, a closeby enemy will be hit for 30/40/50 Lightning damage as well)
Allowing you to make your Zeus build even stronger by taking that keepsake.
stoic thicket
Not completely useless, but less than otherwise.
turbid arch
That way, it would take some of the control away from you, but it would put a higher ceiling on your potencial builds
weak moat
if anything that makes them pretty necessary to take if you want the optimal choice
takes away choice, ironically
turbid arch
Depends on the effects. That one was just an example.
And over the course of the game, you usually meet 3-5 gods
so the directions could move into different places easily.
weak moat
in theory I suppose
there's the issue of usability though
I don't imagine they want things to be too complicated
turbid arch
In the end, it would heavily depend on implementation. The numbers would need to be crunched, the effects to be balanced and so and so fort.
The example I give
would be busted
But it was just a showcase for what I meant
weak moat
sounds more like a balancing nightmare than the god keepsakes
which I think are mostly fun
turbid arch
I think that Hypnos Coin Purse is one of the if not the most fun keepsake in the game.
You can pick it up, use the money in whatever way you desire to further advance your run and then discard it for something else.
I wish there would be 10 more keepsakes like that.
Bone Hourglass WOULD be that, but Styx ruins it sadly.
I once had the idea to have Nyx' Keepsake increase your max HP for picking up darkness, but they turned that into a contractor perk instead. Which is also fine by me
turbid arch
Shackles was the trap damage thing?
turbid arch
I mean, here is the thing.
There are niche cases for some keepsakes
but at the end of the day, in almost all cases, it is 2-3 god keepsakes into a defensive keepsake for Styx.
weak moat
I'm okay with niche uses
turbid arch
Thanatos or Hermes Keepsakes for memebuilds/runs
weak moat
it makes it exciting to find uses for them
Distant Memory got to shine in elysium for my hestia run(s)
turbid arch
What use would you find for nyx' Keepsake?
weak moat
Not sure - haven't tried using yet
might require a specific weapon/playstyle to make full use of
turbid arch
Yeah, but if something needs something specific to be useful, I think thats a problem.
There are also some Items that in essence do the same.
weak moat
I think it's a good thing
turbid arch
Cerberus and Skellys tooth for example.
weak moat
encourages exploration
nobody thought stubborn defiances would have any use until I used it to beat 46 heat
now it's on par
if not standard for high heat
turbid arch
That one for me just comes down to preference honestly. Frankly, I just don't think highly enough of myself to make it work well for me.
weak moat
the general point is that it was dismissed on release
now it's a real option
but that required exploration and experimentation
turbid arch
I wonder what the Developers think of the way you use it.
I would not be surprised if they'd change it to how After Party works.
As in, it procs immediatly once the fight is over instead of leaving the room
weak moat
I actually suspect I'm using it as intended
turbid arch
Who knows?
weak moat
not sure how I'd feel about them changing it to how after party works
turbid arch
It would not affect me all that much because I prefer the regular 3 defiances, but it would be a harsh nerf.
You and Haelian are pretty good in gauging when to die within a fight
turbid arch
but for Asphodel and a lot of rooms in Eylisum, that would rob you of the chance to suicide in lava or on bombs for free heals
cunning urchin
Hurray, beat 11 Heat with Varatha and finished my minor prophecies.
weak moat
gzz @cunning urchin
well, it would rob us of the chance by automatically healing us
which seems better
cunning urchin
Thanks!
light crescent
Is there any possibilities to see hades in coop?
turbid arch
I used to like it as a nice starter-keepsake because it was a nice tool to get you into the habit of checking for pots and also made you more aware of shiny pots which the game has not told or tought you about before.
Now you need to buy the shiny gold pots from the contractor first, so the latter point is gone
and the snacks healing effects being nerfed just makes the keepsake less desireble in general.
cunning urchin
I thought Dusa's keepsake helped a lot early on when I was learning the game, but I think that was before the nerf.
turbid arch
I used Cerberus' keepsake early on for the most part, but I could see the value in Dusas.
She is also one of the first characters you meet, thus, one of the first characters you can give a keepsake to.
It is also noticable that except for Nyx and the Greek gods and Hypnos, everyone in the house of hades gives you a defensive keepsake.
cunning urchin
Breaking urns everywhere was a lot of fun, too.
turbid arch
Cerberus gives max HP, Dusa the snack urns, Achilles the Bracer and Skelly the tooth.
weak moat
meg/than's keepsakes are pretty offensive
turbid arch
They are not there in the beginning
I think Meg only shows up after you have beaten her?
Thanatos only after like 16 runs
weak moat
I suppose
turbid arch
Nyx' keepsake also used to be defensive. Healing for darkness, before they changed it
cunning urchin
I used the Black Shawl a few times in Elysium when I was getting the hang of TD2.
weak moat
can nyx's keepsake give 20% more darkness as well pls and thx
cunning urchin
The new one, I mean.
weak moat
I imagine black shawl would be pretty all right on fists
turbid arch
If anything, wouldn't it be Shawl with Bow and Hestia?
raw violet
i use black shawl with fist and GY
turbid arch
If memory serves, Shall gives extra first hit and extra back stab damage
weak moat
shawl could be good on hestia too
turbid arch
So a first hit in the back with Hestia = huge damage
raw violet
any special-heavy build benefits from black shawl quite nicely
turbid arch
I do not like distant memory and sniper shot because i have no idea when long range ends and starts
raw violet
dunno if it's better than skull earrings though
weak moat
I would like to be able to know what "distant" means. but when they're across the screen it's not necessary
turbid arch
In theory, Distant Memory + Chaos Shield could be amazing too though
hushed ledge
Distant memory + marth spear is fun but not good
weak moat
could be yeah
distant memory might be real good with guan yu/zagreus spear
for that juicy spear throwing damage boost
cunning urchin
About the questions for my DPS with Divine Strike with Malphon: It's a combination of Hunter Dash + extra dashes + Support Fire + being able to mindlessly attack without a pause because you deflect everything (which then also deals extra damage) or dodge. Deadly Reversal is just the cherry on top.
Also I had Dionysus' Aid for DPS for most of the run.
turbid arch
HAHAHAHAHA
Hilarious
Here is me walking into a Tartarus Erebus room.
Immediatly get tagged by a champion extra fast numb skull
weak moat
classic
cunning urchin
Ow.
turbid arch
Second try
I get dread flight
guess what happens?
My special gets STUCK
on a pillar
To put it in Darren Korbs words:
"Never to retuuuuuuuuurn"
And to make things extra hilarious:
I pressed F10
and it broke the game
hushed ledge
I keep winning I just want to lose so I can ramp the heat up lmao
Until then though I'm definitely getting better every run
Lost 3 DD's in the past 10 runs lol
stoic thicket
That's the honeymoon phase of the game, where you get all your mirror upgrades rolling and get better at the game but are still on low heat so you just keep winning.
hushed ledge
Yeah definitely
I'm 1.5k darkness off of getting the 4th purple reroll
As soon as I lose I'm jumping straight to 16 heat
stoic thicket
Have you already done the Nyx / Chaos quest?
hushed ledge
No
I should probably save for that ye
I'm still finding my feet with all the weapons tbh
I can vaguely play GY and Demeter and that's really all I can play well
stoic thicket
There's a few fun things to try.
hushed ledge
I'm fairly sure I've played every aspect at least once
Oh except the rail one that wants you to bomb yourself
Because that's just the exact opposite of how I play rail
stoic thicket
Yeah, Eris rail isn't really my cup of tea as well, and I'd love to do Hestia but that's awkward on KB/M.
hushed ledge
Mood
stoic thicket
A fun build I've done a few times is Poseidon sword with Artemis cast + Demeter Snow Burst. Does a bucketload of damage.
stoic thicket
Special aiming is apparently worse but the auto aim for the primary fire does apparently help a ton.
hushed ledge
Yeah it would
Eh I'll be fine
Kbm is great
Lose some dash angles, get way more flexibility in movement
And way more precise attacks
limpid trench
Hestia is nice if you rebind reload to shift
hushed ledge
Ooh that sounds smart tbh
I wish I still had my good mouse
But it broke
Could've bound a bunch of stuff to it
No more jank when I try to fadeback upper
stoic thicket
I tried rebinding the reload to the mouse but putting it on shift sounds like a solid plan.
limpid trench
It's a nice pinkie workout too
stoic thicket
That pinkie finger is Warframe battle hardened.
Okay, feels pretty good. Gotta be a while to beat the muscle memory but that worked with the special as well.
limpid trench
After my first 30h of Warframe I rebound that to a button on my mouse. My finger kept cramping and I wasn't having that for the next 2k hours I dumped into it
stoic thicket
1.6k (or so) hours into Warframe, it's still on CTRL. That pinky could win an olympic level armwrestling contest.
stoic thicket
That is one upgrade that is worth every single gemstone.
sand cape
You guys use dash to mouse cursor or at facing direction? I tried mouse cursors but couldn't get used to it
stoic thicket
Uh, whatever the default setting is, don't think I changed that. Dash to facing I think.
cunning urchin
If that works best for you, then just use that.
sand cape
I feel sometimes my dash angles are a bit off and I end in lava in asphodel but it beats having so much issues with "I dashed but didn't moved my cursors and now I have to move it fast to attack"
Feels like a pact of punishment
cunning urchin
I think everybody dashes into magma, you're not alone in that lol.
pliant palm
N-no that's not true...
cunning urchin
I've played Hades on pad from the start, anyway, so I've no idea what KBM is like for it.
Well, I've played Bastion and Transistor on KBM, so I've some idea at least.
pliant palm
Dashing to cursor feels so weird
sand cape
Dashing to cursor give you a lot of control over where to dash to but I make too many mistakes when using it
pliant palm
I mean, sure, but Hades isn't a game where you need a lot of precision (or control) to where you dash
wicked wyvern
dry ember
That's why analog control on gamepad is so good.
sand cape
Until you have to use the rail I assume
raw violet
If Hades was a game that didn't require precision in where you dash, people wouldn't be so scared of Heightened Security
stoic thicket
People are scared of heightened security because it absolutely brutally punishes any mistake, in particular later in the game.
turbid arch
Okay, guiys.
We need to talk about the darkside of Hades.
About some of the most sinister spirits of the game that are not explained anywhere.
Why is time distorted in Zagreus room?
If you move close to certain object in his room, time slows down to a crawl!
What's up with that
So far, I have identified 3 objects in Zagreus room that have this time-space distortion going on.
raw violet
@stoic thicket and people should be punished for having lackadaisical movement.
stoic thicket
There's a reason no one uses it unless they have to, because it's not just punishment, you get that without it. 30 health getting chunked away by the Styx guillotines is enough of a "stop that you stupid idiot" reminder. Chunking away 150 health is just absolutely brutal. You can certainly pick it, it's free heat if you never ever screw up.
cunning urchin
Feel free to copy the spreadsheet to your own Google Drive so you can easily look at different Pact combinations without opening the game. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nTBtUZffY7mUM1VXqUVK3PrHtyCPYbd_S2pM9o1KstQ/edit?usp=sharing
stoic thicket
The issue is not that it's punishing, but that it's imo way too punishing to justify picking as long as I have other options for getting the heat I need.
cunning urchin
I think it should be more than 1 heat.
That said, I used it a lot early on for low heat runs because it was fun.
When healing is more expensive, enemies do more damage, etc., it's way more punishing.
stoic thicket
Yup, 1 heat isn't worth risking getting hit for 150 because of a single misplaced dash. But that's just my stance on the matter, if anyone likes using it be my guest.
cunning urchin
Ranged weapons can better deal with Heightened Security and TD2.
When enemies float over magma yet again, as they're wont to, you can either wait for precious seconds or get onto that magma—or try to get them with dash-strikes, but that can take awhile, too.
With melee.
turbid needle
hs should def be more than 1 heat then I'd consider it
also the slowmo thing always happens to me when I try to inspect the mirror idk why
but not for anything else
cunning urchin
I consider HS because there are no good options above 40 lol.
stoic thicket
That's what I meant with "unless you have to". At some point you're running out of options for heat and Jury Summons / Calisthenics Program are a big no-no when on TD2.
So you kinda have to at least consider it at some point.
cunning urchin
No, I have those two maxed and TD2 lol. Still need more to get more heat.
dry ember
CP2 is a problem if you don't have enough DPS
stoic thicket
But almost noone who's just pushing bounties or getting their feet wet with like 32 heat will touch HS, the punishment for a mistake is just too harsh.
dry ember
With JS at least positioning can save you
Bosses getting buffed by CP2 also seems unfair.
stoic thicket
I used HS exactly once, on a low heat Arthur run to get the prophecy. Will likely never touch it again.
dry ember
Just don't step on traps
I got to Asphodel yesterday on 42 heat on to die to Puller Bruiser Bloodless
cunning urchin
@dry ember what keepsake are you using in Tartarus for 42?
dry ember
How am I supposed to get out of that room
cunning urchin
Or which have you tried?
dry ember
AP2 so no God keppsake
I've been using Earring and Acorn
With Skelly keepsake
Boss fights are my run enders
Except bad BP2 rooms
cunning urchin
I wouldn't use AP2 at 42, that's too much RNG. You can be more consistent without that.
dry ember
Yeah but with AP2 there are room to push for more heat
Oh and Earring doesn't work with Stubborn Defiance
cunning urchin
I tried AP2 once on 41, and that was easily one of the worst attempts.
dry ember
Earring should give +40% damage at 30% health
SB restores 30% health upon death
So that should trigger earring right? No, you need one more point of damage to do so
The dev used < 30% instead of =< 30%
Smh
cunning urchin
Yeah, I know about that. I don't think it's that, though, but simply that it's damage that triggers it. And revive is not damage.
dry ember
You right. I'm about to make separate save files just to practice miniboss and bossfights
raw violet
@stoic thicket that was my point. Hades is a game that requires precise movement to avoid traps. I was using HS as an example of that requirement
dry ember
I'm considering not using BP2 at all. Some rooms just seem impossible to get through.
raw violet
I think that’s worthwhile
But also, if you’re banging your head against the wall, again, might as bang it against a real heat
cunning urchin
Most BP2 rooms are doable. Try to use the environment to your advantage.
42 is "real" lol.
raw violet
Is that all options minus TD?
dry ember
Yup
dry ember
Yeah just hit and run
I spend a solid 3 mins clearing a room with double skull spawn thing
raw violet
I think Icebox is right, if someone wanted, could very well do a shield run and stand in corner
Battle of attrition
dry ember
I won't watch that run lmao
raw violet
52 is 52
raw violet
Ambien%
raw violet
Tyty
cunning urchin
Enemies need a moment to turn around even when they have Puller.
So try to use that to your advantage if they give you trouble.
Also don't aim for them directly unless you know you can break their armor before they can attack, then stunlock them and kill them before you dash.
But if you can't break their armor, sideswipe them with a dash-strike, so you stay at the outer edge of the puller circle where you can more quickly get out.
dry ember
Sounds good. I think there are a lot to learn still. With TD2 I usually have the do or die mentality
Which is something I can improve
cunning urchin
Sideswiping I think is among the most important skills to learn with Malphon.
dry ember
But why do that when I can complain to the devs to nerf Bruiser
cunning urchin
You can land attacks on your enemies with a quick sideswipe while staying outside of their line of attack and getting behind them.
That's how I clear Numbskulls.
cunning urchin
Also dashing back and forth through walls is great for clearing Numbskulls.
I think Long Knuckle is overrated.
In my opinion, the best hammer for Zagreus Aspect is Rolling Knuckle.
But keep in mind my main build is Divine Strike.
dry ember
Can you elaborate? Usually I end the combo with a dash strike anyway to keep the stun lock.
cunning urchin
You want to be able to use your dashes for evasion when you need to and still keep your enemies stunlocked.
Rolling Knuckle lets you do that.
It also lets you stunlock without having to move from a good position.
raw violet
In your video you only were able to take advantage of rolling knuckle once
cunning urchin
It also solves the one opening of Divine Strike, which is after your 5-hit combo. With Divine Strike, you're generally safer when you're attacking. If you don't need to dash to do that, you can use your dashes more freely.
raw violet
I think your assessment is right
But practicality maybe less so
I may have to go back and review but I remember it not coming into play that much
cunning urchin
No, I'm very sure I used it very often but most of the time I definitely spammed dash-strikes. It's those moments where you'd rather not dash-strike, though, where it really counts.
raw violet
Feel like breaching and explosive upper are the only real stand out hammers. Everything else is just rated.
cunning urchin
Explosive Upper only matters on Demeter Aspect.
dry ember
I caught the tail end of the toaster stream last night
Apparently Demeter is not optimal for high heat
Due to long animation time.
cunning urchin
Yeah, it's not.
Uppercut is pretty unsafe, and it requires too many boons to be effective.
dry ember
Playing the game is unsafe
raw violet
uppercut is very equivalent to sword special
in terms of safety
actually worse since no aoe
cunning urchin
It requires more than Zag Aspect. You'll want both Attack and Special with Demeter Aspect. Zag Aspect just requires Attack.
raw violet
but similar wind up
yeah, as a general build
that's what fox and I discussed a few weeks back
that Zag would be the most reliable with minimal boon investment
raw violet
demeter is a speedrun aspect tbh
i was trying demeter on 45 heat just to mess around and gravity bruiser numskull taught me all about the special windup
cunning urchin
But, I am genuinely considering Talos for high heat. I'll need to give it more runs, though; it's difficult to use, but I think it has a lot of potential.
raw violet
i'm planning on doing that just for prosterity
maybe learn something about talos
it definitely gives a decent buff for a reasonable amount of time
dry ember
Has anyone tried Poseidon dash with fists?
raw violet
you just have to be really careful about when and where to use the pull
cunning urchin
Yes, I have.
neon fiber
me
raw violet
unless you have long knuckle
dry ember
Oops
neon fiber
i actually liked it
dry ember
I mean with sword
neon fiber
but i did have long f i s t
raw violet
otherwise it knocks everything out of range
cunning urchin
I don't actually care as much about the buff to attack/cast, though that's nice for bosses.
cunning urchin
The pull is actually great with Blizzard Shot.
raw violet
have no tried it on sword
cunning urchin
And Tidal dash keeps enemies away.
But you still get Malphon attack goodness for close range.
dry ember
I wonder how much support fire helped you in your run.
raw violet
i think a lot
cunning urchin
A ton.
raw violet
support fire is really strong on fist and rail
cunning urchin
So, the idea is simply Talos + Flood Shot, get Blizzard Shot.
raw violet
oof, that'll be tricky on ultra high heat
cunning urchin
Yep.
raw violet
doable
dry ember
Getting duo is spicy
cunning urchin
Flood Shot is fairly strong either way.
raw violet
i do think flood shot is a little underrated
neon fiber
flood shot with hera is fun
neon fiber
haha enemy go nyooooom
raw violet
one of those unders
cunning urchin
Because everyone is looking at Trippy Shot and only recently Slicing Shot, too.
Plus Blizzard Shot.
But Flood Shot alone isn't appreciated enough lol.
raw violet
yeah, bliz shot probably overshadows it so hard that it's an unfair comparison
cunning urchin
Well, best cast in the game honestly.
neon fiber
bast cast indeed
cunning urchin
Indeed.
raw violet
it's an unreasonable comparison, even though it's the easy one to make
neon fiber
but yeah, real talk flood shot is incredibly underrated
and doesn't get enoug appreciation
raw violet
the comparison is really phalanx, true, and lightning
neon fiber
imo true>phalanx>lightning
cunning urchin
Phalanx is actually pretty great for Malphon.
raw violet
am i missing one? i think it's just those 4?
phalanx and flood are great utility options
cunning urchin
Crush Shot.
neon fiber
demeter's beam isn't that good unless you get the duo
raw violet
it's not a good comparison cause C beam falls into non-lodging
dry ember
Crush shot is extra meme to me
raw violet
so it's c beam/slicing/trippy
neon fiber
crush shot on the other hand is
weird
raw violet
i forget how crush shot works
neon fiber
smol blast in front of you
raw violet
i've picked it up only once or twice
dry ember
Yeah no one uses it lol
neon fiber
lodges and inflicts weak
raw violet
it lodges?!
neon fiber
ironically also one of the weakest casts when it comes to applications
raw violet
i actually might pick it up more then
neon fiber
guess it inflicted weak on itself
raw violet
i thought it didn't
cunning urchin
The damage is actually good.
dry ember
It does
cunning urchin
Crush Shot was a lot better before the nerf because it was 5 hits.
dry ember
The range just turn me off
raw violet
so i had avoided it when I wanted a lodging cast
neon fiber
yeah, i meant it as in it not being really flexible
cunning urchin
5 hits = 5 chances to charm.
raw violet
i'll have to mess around with it
there are quite a few runs where I would not have minded taking it had i known it could lodge
dry ember
Imagine Snow Burst going off for each blast
cunning urchin
So basically 2 Crush Shots were an 80% chance to charm lol.
dry ember
15% chance to charm right?
neon fiber
8.5% chance
nice
sand cape
when you are a dying a lot and the run is basically over but certain elysum pal save your run 
dry ember
80.3%
cunning urchin
I had some fun runs back then with Shatter Shot, Unhealthy Fixation, and Fully Loaded.
dry ember
Too bad the devs removed fully loaded in later patch
cunning urchin
Oh yeah, they nerfed the damage at higher rarity, too.
turbid arch
In loving memory of Fully Loaded
dry ember
Paid actor be like
cunning urchin
My first clear was with Shatter Shot, actually.
dry ember
ah how fitting
cunning urchin
cunning urchin
Oh look, my second clear had Fully Loaded. https://imgur.com/a/72bdVCf
dry ember
what is this ancient victory screen
raw violet
wow, you actually took a screenshot of your very first clear
dry ember
OBS brings my FPS down to 40 ish when recording
cunning urchin
That's only surprising until you find out I screenshot literally everything. My Hades screenshot folder has 1090 images. 
dry ember
how many of them are of aphrodite?
cunning urchin
Are you recording with your CPU or GPU? Try changing that.
dry ember
GPU
raw violet
Good lord. 1k
cunning urchin
At least half, probably.
dry ember
with CPU i get 90 fps in game and 15 fps vid lol
cunning urchin
Yikes.
weak moat
@cunning urchin that fellow pushing 49 heat w/fists is streaming atm if you have any interest
cunning urchin
Thanks! I have interest, but I need to do homework. I shouldn't even be talking here lol.
weak moat
word. gl on the hw
cunning urchin
Thanks!
Tell him to join the server, though. All the cool girls are here, (and boys are also here).
Did you all see my heat calculator, by the way? https://discordapp.com/channels/456889434672201729/520688402958516254/719204099983409254
Got annoyed at not having that outside of the game when brainstorming.
cunning urchin
Indeed.
I've been thinking of making a Hell save just to run high heat with that lol.
weak moat
do I need permissions to fiddle with the menus?
tepid trail
im back
cunning urchin
Err . . . I think? You can just copy it to your own drive, anyway.
neon fiber
i saw the undefined
weak moat
oh right
cunning urchin
I'm talking about my Google spreadsheet.
peak iron
Bruh
cunning urchin
Congrats!
Looks like a fun run.
If I let others change the values in my spreadsheet, then they will just change it for everyone every time lol.
weak moat
yeah, realized that as I asked it
raw violet
@weak moat how do i get your save to work? Do I need to copy and rename my own .ctrls and .sjson files?
cunning urchin
They don't get a ping if you add the @ in an edit, just so you know.
sand cape
running chiron's bow, every single god: "special boons? whats that?
cunning urchin
Fill your other core boon slots, so you have a better chance of getting a Special boon offered.
Fated Persuasion helps, too, if you have that.
sand cape
i eventually picked zeus special, then poseidon offer me to trade and i sure took it
weak moat
oh @raw violet I believe you just need to change the name to ProfileX.sav, where "X" is the profile number you prefer it to be. It may mess with your audio/controls when you first open it, so might have to adjust some stuff
raw violet
I did that, maybe I messed up on the rename. I'll have to check when i get back home
weak moat
hmm, odd
raw violet
I hav e a few ideas of how to make it work, i just wanted to confirm I didn't have to do anything else
weak moat
lemme know when you get back and I can try to help
turbid arch
I do not know why they hardlocked that one point of heat behind hell mode.
I think we had the talk about Hell Mode existing not making sense before?
cunning urchin
except for one thing:
crickets
turbid arch
When you hit Enter instead of Tab Enter by accident.
Then decide to just make the whole thing shorter.
I was about to write a big passus on how Hell Mode serves no purpose aside from taking away flexibility in your pact choices without actually giving you anything in return except for that one single point of heat.
cunning urchin
So first we get a cliffhanger ending.
turbid arch
It's a large system for nothing
cunning urchin
Then the whole episode is retconned.
turbid arch
Exactly.
turbid arch
Thought process was that it probably is easier to just add the remaining pact option to the regular pact instead of getting rid of heat mode entirely.
I do not know.
I never used god mode.
Can you use god mode on heated runs?
dry ember
Yup, with normal mode
turbid arch
God Mode 50 heat run the dream?
turbid arch
One thing I also never will understand is why there is no Theseus mini boss fight in Elysium.
raw violet
Theseus wouldn't risk it
neon fiber
theseus is too dumb to navigate elysium
so the job of being a miniboss is left to the brain of the two, asterius
small stirrup
Plus why expend the energy of meeting your opponents, when they just simply come to you while you relax up at the summit of "paradise"
cunning urchin
He wouldn't fight you anywhere except on the big stage, and you're "not worthy" of being his sparring partner. Asterius wants to spar with you.
peak iron
If you can't make it to the final arena, you're not worth Theseus' time.
brisk copper
it's below Theseus' dignity to fight in a chamber almost without audience
raw violet
@turbid arch Hell mode isn't supposed to give you anything at all, it's just another layer of challenge
small stirrup
There is an audience in asterius's miniboss arena
peak iron
Tiny audience. It's not big enough for Theseus level of fame.
small stirrup
True
peak iron
It would be like Guns n' Roses at their prime playing at your local bar for a gig.
cunning urchin
I agree that Hell mode isn't very enticing at the moment as a "challenge" mode. The only thing it really adds is Personal Liability.
small stirrup
challenge mode?
raw violet
being un-able to play on lower heat settings has a bigger impact than we credit it for
raw violet
also removal of choices on pacts is another layer of challenge
i'm not arguing whether or not that makes it enticing
turbid arch
The only thing it effectively does is take away 72 Titan Blood, 36 Diamonds and 36 Ambrosia that you could earn from low heat runs
raw violet
just that there's not reason it has to be a mode that "gives" you anything
it only takes away 0 heat bounties
so it's only 6 titan blood
turbid arch
The lower heat bounties remain?
raw violet
sorry, 12
turbid arch
Okay, that's nice then.
turbid arch
Still, if I do something related to higher difficulty, I want to get some kind of reward to it. We have Skellies trinkets, which are cute, but aside from that?
raw violet
i think people need to try things for themselves before they condemn things
turbid arch
It's just bragging rights.
raw violet
most action games that have these difficulty levels without any additional reward
i suspect SGG philosophy is that they don't want players to feel obligated to play on Hell mode
cunning urchin
I would like it for the challenge, but I don't see much more challenge except when starting out, I suppose?
raw violet
except that I think on the high heats, we take not having personal liability for granted
turbid arch
which only ever ends up being a problem if you want to go higher in heat eventually
raw violet
where it is quite meaningful
turbid arch
Absolutely.
Having that extra heat to spend means that you will not have to spend it somewhere else.
That could mean you getting some healing, facing less enemies or having more options or or or
raw violet
yes but forced jury and calisthenics makes up for it
cunning urchin
I might start a hell mode save just for fun, but it takes a long time to catch up with my current save for the mirror etc.
raw violet
since most people avoid both
turbid arch
Honestly!
And I can't believe I am saying this
I take Calisthenics and Jury over Benefits Package.
Every day of the weak.
raw violet
I had started one but stopped since I was debating whether or not I should just wait for the next update or even the final update
dry ember
Friendly reminder that casual players will find Hell Mode indeed hellish
raw violet
to get a normal progression of story
cunning urchin
So, it's like, for all the time catching up on hell mode, I could be doing high heat runs on my original save lol.
turbid arch
^
dry ember
Most people won't be push heat this far lol
raw violet
or you could just consider starting a hell mode save as a break
cunning urchin
Most people won't be push heat this far lol
That's fair. I know of 3 people who are pushing heat with Malphon higher than I did lol, and one of the 3 is me.
turbid arch
Today I learned how terrible hammers for the fists truly are.
cunning urchin
Which ones?
cunning urchin
Oh.
turbid arch
Flying Cutter for today.
cunning urchin
I've said this earlier, Flying Cutter actively hurts my runs if I'm forced to take it lol.
Thankfully, I don't really use the Special with Zag Aspect anyway.
turbid arch
I just got it for the first time on my current safe file. Super forgot its existance.
Basicly, it is a terrible shield charge
raw violet
Flying cutter might be worth doing a run dedicated to it to see if there’s a way to make it work
cunning urchin
You need to charge for a year to get a little bit more range on it lol.
turbid arch
All of the special related hammers for the fists are either super slow, causing you to get hit or disposition you forcefully in a way that makes it easy to get hit.
cunning urchin
And any instant upper won't hit anything in front of you.
turbid arch
The only 2 special hammers that are not hurtful are exploding cutter and the healing cutter
mossy breach
hey the kick hammer is pretty good
turbid arch
Yeah until it catapults you into a trap or a lava pool
cunning urchin
You can make Rush Kick work okay with practice, but it's nowhere as good as Explosive Upper.
turbid arch
And even Explosive Upper is not even good "enough" to really make me want it
raw violet
I dunno if it’s just me or I had a glitch, but with base dash upper, it seems to be unable to hit enemies that are directly above or below
cunning urchin
Draining Cutter doesn't heal enough, honestly.
raw violet
It always angles 45 degrees up
turbid arch
At least it does not take away all of your max HP.
cunning urchin
Explosive Upper with Demeter does a ton of damage.
turbid arch
Yeah, but that implies taking demeter.
cunning urchin
On Zag Aspect, I basically take no Special hammers at all.
turbid arch
The regular attack also only has one hammer that is truly exciting
The +5 combo damage one.
The others are just pretty okay'ish.
And that mostly because they make afforementioned one better/easier to use.
cunning urchin
Imo Rolling Knuckle is the best Attack hammer.
cunning urchin
No, that's Concentrated.
Rolling is the one that adds a dash-strike after the 5th hit.
weak moat
off-topic question: is personal liability always active
raw violet
Rolling knuckle is overrated, imo
cunning urchin
I'm the only one, I think, who says it's good? lol
weak moat
most people think it's good I think
raw violet
there was a bunch of people who liked it early on
i'm rewatching your 41 heat run
and so far, only 1 instance of rolling knuckle usage
sterile portal
The Dash Strike is nice, i just always dash out of the attack combo at the 4th hit
so I can resume attacking sooner
raw violet
but i'm only at end of elysium and you got it mid elysium
i just think it's redundant in practice, int theory it's quite good
cunning urchin
I had 5 dashes, too, so that should factor into your assessment of that particular run.
raw violet
that's fair
cunning urchin
When I get it early and no extra dashes for awhile, I definitely use it a lot. I guess the more extra dashes I have, the less I rely on it.
raw violet
i just think if you've got FO2 on, the attack rate of enemies is going to result in a true dash more often than it takes to get all 5-6 standard attacks
cunning urchin
But it lets you do a lot of damage vs Hades during his beams. I'd probably take it just for that alone lol.
raw violet
and by the time you are safe enough to do the full rolling knuckle combo, you're also safe enough to dash (to attack and not save for avoiding attacks)
that's true, good dps for the Hades beam
lol
weak moat
sometimes you just wanna hold the line and punchpunchpunchpunchpunch
cunning urchin
Sometimes you don't want to dash because you're behind cover from projectiles punching away on something, but you still want to keep your enemy stunlocked. With Rolling Knuckle, you can do that.
raw violet
yeah, but a few niche cases is why i consider it overrated
there are definitely times where I think i would like rolling knuckle
but most of the time it doesn't feel like a loss to not take
which might be able to describe most of the fist hammer options
cunning urchin
The way I see it, it adds versatility. Whereas Concentrated and Breaching Cross mainly just add DPS.
raw violet
cept breaching on BP settings
i consider breaching just as much dps as safety
more safety actually
cunning urchin
And my opinion of Long Knuckle is still kind of whatever. It sounds nice in theory, but it never seems to work quite right for me.
raw violet
i like long knuckle but it doesn't feel like I have to have it