right when i try to get a lambent plume run going, there's the extra hp enemies in 4 of the 6 initial rooms in tartarus 😡
#h1-builds-and-combat
flat brook
proven robin
Amazing!
fiery light
im exhausted lmao
im still like 6 minutes behind first
but il get there
#FreeHermes
raw violet
10 darkness? that seems fresher than usual
magic dagger
when bullboi miniboss kills you three times with 3 hits because you're using guan yu
and then you see patty
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/694327507910131714/713846710593650709/20200523130802_1.jpg
♥️
I love that guy.
proven robin
GOOD
dry ember
saved
raw violet
i don't know how there's not a saint patty emote
novel prawn
lol
dry ember
I had an almost same picture
fiery light
Was wondering if anyone could help me understand Styx
I understand the need for high variance gameplay
But is it possible that we can buff the other minibosses in Styx to match TV's strength?
pliant palm
Isn't TV rarer tho ?
fiery light
it is, but thats kinda what I mean by high variance
raw violet
ew, i feel like it should be the other way around
fiery light
I don't mind one way or another @raw violet
but I dont wana seem like im complaining about it being OP
so if I have to have one
raw violet
but that's my own bias
fallen mirage
Even if TV is rarer, it feels bad to have a chance at just ending a run, especially compared to everything else in Styx
fiery light
(I think the Rats in all aspects are kinda bleh in terms of design)
Especially cause how late TV is
Honestly, I'd be more okay with it if it was a -truly- random enemy
and not an elite specifically
At least that to me would make it a Styx hazard rather than a arbitrarily more difficult miniboss hazard
raw violet
i think TV is a tricky balance cause in its current state, it's trolly and thematic and not that much of a problem on early playthroughs
but when you take into consideration heat settings or timers or speed, it starts to throw things into a different area of balance
i don't really know how to tackle that discussion, tbh
fallen mirage
I think that Tiny Vermin is unfair because it has more HP than the other elites have hp+armor combined. It doesn't do an insane amount of damage, and its attack is relatively telegraphed in comparison to giant rat. It's just that the fight takes way too long, so you end up getting hit so much more than other bosses
It also means that Hide Breaker and Breaching Slash become completely irrelevant
fallen mirage
It's not like you can stagger it anyway
fiery light
yeah
raw violet
i do agree that its hp pool is too high
i hadn't even thought about that, that it acts like it has armor without having actual armor
magic dagger
I just finished with 1hp and no DDs
fiery light
its -truly- a 5th boss
which is kind of an issue because it rewards a miniboss rewards
viscid vale
guys, what must i do to unlock the hymn of Zagreus ? I gave Dionysus 2 nectars, i did Orpheus Eurydice quest, but still nothing
raw violet
probably do more runs til you have a convo with orpheus
viscid vale
do i need to offer more nectar to Dionysus so he'll talk about it ?
i ask cause i'm in a Dio chamber
raw violet
wouldn't hurt, but i got the convo after only one nectar
viscid vale
ok
raw violet
i suspect your orpheus+eurydice quests took precedence over that convo
viscid vale
also, is it normal if Orpheus yet doesn't sing ever, even after saying he now sings ?
oh, maybe
i unlocked his song but its just instrumental and he, personally, never sings in the House :/
but maybe it's gonna change ? :/ i just did his quest
raw violet
do more runs
magic dagger
viscid vale
oh, probably, cause i saw him with Eurydice last time in her chamber
ok, thanks for the answers !
novel prawn
As obvious as it may have been, I never realized how useful Rupture is against the mobs in Asphodel, who just keep jumping around the place
fallen mirage
Yeah, rupture is nice. The only issue is that it comes at the cost of knockback, which throws them too far away to damage with anything other than Rupture
novel prawn
yeah. I got the dash from poseidon (epic rarity) and put some levels into it, and got the rupture boon too... first time I'm ever doing a run where I just dash around the place to kill everything
feels nice
proven robin
Rupture's great against Hades himself too.
At least second phase when he's just running all over the place.
novel prawn
will definetely use it against him once I'm there, thx for the tip
proven robin
Good luck!
novel prawn
I'm actually not even using my weapon. this is so ridiculous and funny at the same time
don't think I can keep this up for the whole run tho
proven robin
Probably not, but fun is fun!
viscid vale
to me, most powerful boons or weapons are not necessarily the most fun
not that i love difficulty, on the contrary, but it's just what you enjoy or not as a playstyle or aesthetic
raw violet
@viscid vale https://i.imgur.com/Ks5EjYQ.png
that's the flash you're looking for
the bobber is a distraction, it's why you don't need to look at it
if you look for the tip on the flash, you don't have to get fooled by the fake bobs
proven robin
Welp, died to THAT MEANIE THESESUS.
At least I broke his chariot again.
(Also, yeah, didn't get much health for Guan Yu, otherwise a good run)
OH that's what I did wrong!
Shoulda put extra life on enemies rather than extra damage.
magic dagger
Extra damage with guan yu... I did the same thing, no wonder my last clear only had 1hp and no DDs
proven robin
Yep.
west totem
Quick question
Very quick question
Do soul jars from ||Hades|| count as traps
Because
i almost won
but i found out the very hard way
that they deal 150 damage
edgy sparrow
the little vases that shoot out the spider looking things, or....?
dry ember
The vases summoned by the final boss is certainly considered traps for Heightened Security purposes.
raw violet
Best way to avoid vases is doing something to break them when they spawn
Either with a dash that does damage or something ranged
still ocean
Ares' cast is pretty strong against vases
raw violet
Throw some casts or something
main osprey
I remember someone saying something about Lightning Rod before...specifically that it was not to be discussed...is it bad? It doesn't look that good, but I wanted to check
raw violet
It’s not...great
main osprey
Mm, but prophecy...I'm prolly not gonna win this run anyway, I think I'll just go for it
raw violet
I would be surprised to find a staunch defender of lightning rod but I’m all ears
If it’s offered, it won’t hurt a run
mossy breach
Its not bad either, the few times i tried it i loved it
main osprey
only problem is I have Demeter's cast xD
raw violet
Whether it’s more helpful than your other choice is debatable
main osprey
it's definitely worse than the other options, but I don't have faith in this run and I need it for the prophecy, so might as well
young gorge
Everytime I get offered lightning rod I cry inside
raw violet
There are people who will sell boons for the explicit purpose of avoiding that offering
young gorge
I take it, I sell itz and it comes back to haunt me
turbid needle
I use Stygian Soul because not having to track down Bloodstones is a huge weight off my shoulders and in some cases a DPS increase.
Also, it makes Lightning Rod not spawn, and is therefore the best Mirror talent.
main osprey
hahaha
y'know, now that I've gotten lightning rod (admittedly with a build that it had no chance of working in) I see why y'all didn't really like it. What would be neat is if if followed your Cast (in addition), not just the sitting Bloodstone
proven robin
Funnily enough I have reasonably fond memories of Lightning Rod because it was one of the boons I had for one of my first completed runs.
But yeah, it's kind of limited in utility, from what I've seen.
turbid needle
I thought it was kinda neat until the one time I got Greater Recall afterward and I went "Oh."
proven robin
I wonder how you could rework it.
I dunno if just having it follow the cast would really change much.
Hm...does the current Lightning Rod also hit enemies with the bloodstones embedded in them?
Because that would be kind of mega-dope?
proven robin
I feel like that would be a fairly obvious, on-theme, and not-overpowered upgrade.
turbid needle
Alternately, we could just bring back Freak Accident (lightning bolt on crit).
edgy sparrow
The enemy is the lightning rod
proven robin
Yeah, like, it even makes name sense.
main osprey
actually, Freak Accident would make sense, since many of the other Duos work the same way (lightning bolt on knockback, lightning bolt on fog)
proven robin
You ram three of those suckers into Hades and he's just stuck getting bzowts every few ticks and he's just like "I REALLY DO NOT APPRECIATE THIS BROTHER QUIT IT"
main osprey
it's a natural synergy, which to me is what the Duo feel like they should be
proven robin
Yeah, but then why's Artemis's legendary completely disjointed from that?
I do agree that it'd match the others, but I do also think it'd work great just with that upgrade.
cunning urchin
Am I the only one who doesn't have a problem with the Tiny Vermin? Maybe that's a Malphon thing, but I never really get what the complaints are about. It doesn't even take that long, either.
turbid needle
Are people asking for Tiny Vermin to be nerfed?
cunning urchin
There were some complaints about it above.
flat brook
tiny vermin just always take longer than other elites to kill
considering that if you're using tight deadline and styx is pure rng, that could kill a run
turbid needle
I think I've hit the timer in Styx once in over 6 months.
flat brook
also sometimes tiny vermin just teleports around like crazy barely giving you any time to hit, since it's got some invincibility periods
so it's more annoying than hard imo
cunning urchin
Yeah, I don't really see it. Styx's timer is pretty lenient.
flat brook
sometimes the rng stars align and you get tiny vermin + 5 sack and you're already struggling with damage
cunning urchin
Well, if you're struggling with damage, that's your build, though. I'd be surprised that you made it through Elysium in time.
turbid needle
Yeah, if you're struggling with damage you're not even getting through Elysium.
mighty ermine
i don't think it's ever put me in the danger zone of TD, but it's just a minor bummer when i have a potential PB time going and tiny vermin shows up instead of a typical miniboss that would just plainly go down faster
cunning urchin
PB time?
main osprey
personal best
mighty ermine
personal best
cunning urchin
Ah. Thanks.
flat brook
tiny vermin is just adding insult to injury. styx is rng and tiny vermin worsens it
turbid needle
Agree to disagree.
You can always put it in #hades-feedback if you feel strongly-enough.
flat brook
i don't find tiny vermin the problem, but styx' sack rng
and i think that's been suggested plenty already haha
primal sigil
I can get to Hades but rarely kill him. This is only at heat 1. It's driving me crazy. What am I doing wrong?
This is even with all three death defiance and a pretty strong build
It's my control
Like I'm 71 hours into the game and still am rarely beating Hades. What am I doing wrong?
main osprey
without knowing anything about your playstyle, or what kinds of builds you get, especially if you can consistently reach him, I would say you might be having difficulty learning his attack patterns. what might help is watching a video of someone else beating him, so you can see how they move around his attacks
dry ember
Most of the time TD is a non issue in Styx
But once in a while where you have 5 sack RNG
You have like almost 2 mins for Hades at best
Which can get dicey
Source: lost 2 runs in a row due to 5 sack
Tbh I really hope they either speed up Hades transition animation
Or just stop the TD timer
I'm talking phase 1 to phase 2 transition where Hades takes his sweet time getting up. It's like 10 ish seconds which can actually make or break a run with 5 sack.
normal orbit
So I have to give Nectar until the Lock, then do favor, then give Ambrosia, to get Companion?
Are Companions worth it? A lot of the builds seem to mention Keepsakes.
cunning urchin
Yes and yes.
normal orbit
Thank you.
fiery light
@cunning urchin I actually prefer the doors to take a little awhile which is weird I know
means that kill locations (which are largely based on an RNG spawn) dont matter as much
raw violet
i would think the same reason there's a suggestion for doors to open quicker is not unlike the concerns about the length of time it takes to kill tiny vermin
cunning urchin
It's not a concern about the timer at all. I don't personally care about speedruns. It's just convenience for me.
Dashing to the door after clearing the chamber, clicking RB, and it doesn't open is inconvenient.
turbid needle
Lotta little things like that, honestly.
raw violet
one could argue a miniboss with a disproportionately high hp pool is also inconvenient
dry ember
what is RB?
cunning urchin
I'm fine with fighting. I don't want to wait for doors.
turbid needle
Right Bumper.
raw violet
it's not just speedruns, it's also high heat
which is why i say it's tricky cause it doesn't really matter for the majority of the playerbase
i don't really care, either way
turbid needle
@dry ember Might wanna be more specific about that piece of feedback.
You're already using spoilers, could just name the boss.
raw violet
but i can understand the argument
nimble dove
Is there a reason why i can't send a screenshot?
turbid needle
I've never actually heard a hard-and-fast reason, but we can still send image links.
nimble dove
how would i go about doing that?
untold vortex
you can upload it to something like imgur and then post the link
main osprey
...I just did a stupid. I just horribly mistimed my fully charged Artemis call against the final boss...
dry ember
@turbid needle thanks mate
Don't worry. I think we all do a stupid sometimes
Some people's stupid are more pronounced than others' though
main osprey
this one was pretty stupid :P
turbid needle
You're not as stupid as me until you throw with Hunting Blades.
Multiple times.
I just sit there and try to face-tank with one DD when I should just be running.
dry ember
Well I lost a Scintillating Feast Ice Wine run
main osprey
nice!
dry ember
The First of Many!
main osprey
0.o
dry ember
Critical Strike is one hell of a drug
nimble dove
It really is lmao
I don't know how i'm gonna be able to finish him with Twin Fists lmao
dry ember
Live and learn
You can always come back and ask for builds too.
But for now you can explore at your own pace methink
You have the Pact of Punishment now. Get some whipping going!
nimble dove
Yeah i'll probably just experiment
cunning urchin
I don't know how i'm gonna be able to finish him with Twin Fists lmao
Primarily by punching him. 
@dry ember you mean die and learn.
nimble dove
Punch him to death
cunning urchin
Yes.
stoic thicket
Try a Merciful End build if you haven't done that yet.
cunning urchin
Now you've got your strategy. Go go!
nimble dove
I'm ecstatic to see what comes next
dry ember
Mainly more punching.
cunning urchin
"More Wretches."—Zagreus
stoic thicket
"Blasted Wretches." - Hades
dry ember
"Blood and darkness." - just about everyone, but especially Hades
main osprey
it gets less scary as you use it more
I barely even notice when I'm playing at 1 or 2 heat now
dry ember
Extreme Measure is fun
It actually adds something new to the game, while not being overbearing like Benefit Package.
main osprey
the one with the blue heartDamage Control is a good starting point as well, doesn't increase the difficulty too much
dry ember
32 heat is the only exceptable way to do this
Imagine playing with low heat
Smh my head
main osprey
:3
stoic thicket
I currently worked my way up to 8 heat and have been running Benefits Package almost the entire time. Yeah it's annoying but it gives a fair chunk of heat without making any of the bosses more difficult.
nimble dove
Yeah that's what i started with just cause it requires me to choose one
dry ember
Yeah. But occasionally I have nightmare with speedster and duplicating skulls
Especially with FO2 on
cunning urchin
You could run TD2. That's pretty free heat for me at this point.
dry ember
Robo first clear amounted to 37 mins. Could be a challenge.
stoic thicket
I hate being on a timer, and I'm fairly slow. TD1 even is something that I'm loathing to do, I'd rather take Benefits package than being put on time pressure.
dry ember
But yeah TD is fairly free
The learning curve is fairly gentle imo. Nyaa is right.
TD1 is free. TD2 is 90% free.
fiery light
TD1 and 2 are honestly super chill as long as you know what youre doing already
which I'd argue -is- the case if youre pushing heat levels
cunning urchin
My first clears were all around 30~40 minutes, too.
dry ember
TD2 and FO2 stay on, permanently
nimble dove
most of the time it was just me thinking what i wanted / could use more of
stoic thicket
My fastest run ever has been like 20 minutes, TD2 ain't happening. My try to go with TD1 a bit later.
turbid needle
FO2 is one of the harder options.
dry ember
You can pause the game to think
cunning urchin
A 20-minute clear is TD2.
dry ember
And it doesn't take off your timer
fiery light
yeah
dry ember
Most of my runs are around 19 to 22 mins
fiery light
I really hope they make it so timer pauses on door selection
cunning urchin
You also have time between biomes to strategize for the next one.
fiery light
you can already do this by pausing the game
dry ember
And I'm on TD2 almost all the time.
fiery light
makes little sense to have timer paused for literally every decision in the game besides next chambers
dry ember
I only hit TD limit with 5 sack RNG, hate it
dry ember
upvote my Hades animation timer stop please, I love yall
fiery light
Styx has far too much unactionable rng to warrant its late arrival imo
dry ember
Yeah I lost 2 of my recent runs back to back due to sack RNG
Both times Hades was at 20% health
fiery light
its just not enjoyable and leads to frustrations
dry ember
That 10 extra second could have made it for me.
cunning urchin
@dry ember your 32-heat clear was only 13.5 seconds faster than mine even though you had a Legendary boon. Shame on you.
fiery light
you could make better and more informed decisions
whilst still having a high degree of variance
dry ember
Hey miss, it takes skill to get Splitting Bolt ok
cunning urchin
I bet those 13.5 seconds were from me going fishing, too.
dry ember
I had to take Storm Lightning for that
fiery light
it also leaves the door open to hey if you have more time, you can go get the other tunnels
dry ember
I bet those 13.5 seconds were from me going fishing, too.
Ok how did you know, I fish in Tartarus and Styx lmao
You can't walk pass first room and don't fish
That's heresy
fiery light
I mean @dry ember isnt a speedrunner
dry ember
Well call me a speedrunner then
fiery light
and theyve clearly shown why it negatively effects him
The fact that the game has a timer as a condition
disproves that I think
dry ember
I'm interested. But perhaps not rn.
cunning urchin
No, you lost those runs entirely because of skill.
dry ember
I'll dm you later though
fiery light
well obviously everything is based on skill
but even for a casual player
the styx rng is non-actionable
theres no way to play around it
just gotta pray that you get it
and to me, thats the most boring form of RNG
Theres RNG all over the game already you know? but you can modify your playstyle on it as you come across it
Styx rng has none of that
dry ember
Nyaa I bet you can't lose a run with Scintillating Feast Ice Wine Hera Bow
Literally can't do what I did
Get on my level 
fiery light
malphon is lit
im working on my 32 for it
I'm just hoping it gets some buffs to it
dry ember
Literally takes no skill using Malphon
cunning urchin
No, it takes the most skill out of all the weapons.
fiery light
the most?
cunning urchin
Yes.
fiery light
compared to actively timing crit shots with bow?
dry ember
Laughs in Bow
cunning urchin
It's the one I use all the time. So of couse it takes the most skill by far.
fiery light
ah
LOL
i was going to say
i almost agree with you on the basis that I think its weak
LOL
fiery light
video games are srs business
fiery light
The only outliers I can really think of
cunning urchin
All my builds are high skill.
dry ember
skill
Divine Dash
cunning urchin
Divine Strike + Divine Dash is very difficult to use.
fiery light
gauntlets need a small buff
dry ember
Take one
turbid needle
What's your suggested buff?
raw violet
i would not argue against a fist buff
fiery light
Thats the thing, I really don't know for certain
raw violet
but i don't think it needs it at all
dry ember
I swear I can't use sword
raw violet
didn't you say the same thing about sword?
raw violet
and then you started using it?
raw violet
sounds like you need to take your new knowledge and try again
cunning urchin
I would genuinely downvote any request for a Malphon buff lol. The only exception would be replacing or buffing Quake Cutter.
fiery light
whereas sword i was tackling the wrong way
Oh I have @raw violet
I just still think its less powerful than sword to me
I'm a huge sword stan now so maybe I'm biased
Sworddash strike alone makes me value it a ton
raw violet
i can't compare tbh, i haven't put that much time into sword
raw violet
malphon has been my easiest 32 run so far
i mistime the special-dash attack too much on sword
raw violet
too used to the attack speed on malphon
fiery light
I had an issue with that a ton on my first runs with it
raw violet
then i just eat a bunch of hits cause i cancel out the special
raw violet
sword is probably hardest to use for me so far
cunning urchin
Just use Excalibur, eat every hit, and still win.
raw violet
i do even worse with excalibur
raw violet
but i also haven't used it since i first unlocked it as my first aspect
fiery light
increased dash length on vanilla sword gets a little too unwieldy for me
raw violet
nemesis is probably what you want for your playstyle
turbid needle
Crit and Poseidon are roughly equal.
dry ember
How do people do dash strike so fast with sword
turbid needle
Poseidon used to be the speedrun weapon.
raw violet
poseidon is really good if you're into cast
dry ember
I beat Skelly up for like 15 mins the other dsy
fiery light
wait Really @turbid needle
turbid needle
raw violet
if you hit dash and attack at the same time, you're effectively doing only two inputs
rather than something like dash~attack
which would be 4
fiery light
oh damn nice
turbid needle
I'm sorry, what?
The reason you can spam Dash-Strikes is because Dashing resets Attack cooldown.
fiery light
which is why you special to balance it out
turbid needle
So if you spam the Dash key as fast as you can and input an Attack one frame later, you'll spam Dash-Strikes as fast as you can Dash.
fiery light
Mhm
its honestly pretty easy to mashout too
so if you just practice fox
you'll get it
raw violet
but you can just hit them both at the same time and do the same thing
you don't need the 1 frame difference
dry ember
Yeah. I've been trying
raw violet
the game has a generous buffering system
dry ember
Maybe one day. But honestly it gets frustrating.
fiery light
I'd suggest starting out slow
dry ember
Also I'm assuming controller and keyboard don't matter?
fiery light
and pick up pace as your practice
Most of the speedrunners use controller
but i use keyboard
raw violet
so you can just spam dash+attack over and over for dashattack
mighty ermine
i find it very easy to do consistently with controller
fiery light
im the opposite lol
i tried to do some runs on controller
and i was absolutely garbage
turbid needle
I'm sorry, did I miss a Melee reference earlier?
dry ember
So if you spam the Dash key as fast as you can and input an Attack one frame later, you'll spam Dash-Strikes as fast as you can Dash.
Can you elaborate?
turbid needle
so if you just practice fox
@fiery light
dry ember
Lol k
dry ember
Fox is me
turbid needle
You can input Dash and Attack at the same time.
mighty ermine
no items
raw violet
yeah, but i'm saying you don't have to learn how to shine cancel to do the double dash attack quickly
mighty ermine
final destination
raw violet
cause this game doesn't have that degree of specificity for inputs
turbid needle
Can't properly moderate voice channels.
fiery light
Or else I'd suggest you hop into a voice channel and I could stream you the inputs
yeah, I figured
raw violet
vorime streams with live controller inputs
so you can actually see how it's done
sometimes
dry ember
Alright I'll check it out. Thanks Mr Hermes for the offer.
dry ember
When the full skip was skill available
mighty ermine
cannot wait for spread fire to not be... like this
dry ember
:(
normal orbit
Does Dash-Strike count as an attack?
fiery light
Spreadfire needs to get deleted
dry ember
Yes
raw violet
yes
fiery light
@normal orbit depends on the scenario
normal orbit
Thank you!
turbid needle
Spread Fire just needs to be reverted.
raw violet
i wouldn't want spreadfire to be deleted
dry ember
We are talking SF nerf again?
normal orbit
I'm dash-striking with Ares, want to proc doom.
fiery light
yeah it'll work @normal orbit
raw violet
the other attacks definitely need some help though
mighty ermine
yeah deletion isn't necessary, it's a solid hammer concept
mighty ermine
the execution has launched far out of orbit however
dry ember
Don't take SF away from me
raw violet
i did some spreadfire-less runs and....they were okay
dry ember
And I'm not even a rail fan
turbid needle
Why would we ever not revert Spread Fire? It's incredibly unbalanced right now.
raw violet
but really felt lackluster in general
fiery light
Because thats balancing around speedrunning :^) @turbid needle
raw violet
i can't tell if that's a by comparison thing
or if the other attack hammers just need more help
stoic thicket
Same. I got a good SF run like once and that was super fun. Just loading the shotty and going berserk on their collective behinds was awesome.
dry ember
Because having OP things is OK in single player game?
turbid needle
Nah.
fiery light
Then the hammer should only give Spreadfire as an option
because thats basically what its doing now to Rail.
turbid needle
Balance your concurrently-offered options.
raw violet
i would argue that a single player game with replayability that hinges on variety, op weapons matter to some degree
fiery light
I agree @raw violet
dry ember
Ok I had this exact conversation a while ago
turbid needle
It's okay that Hunting Blades+Vicious Cycle is the best set-up in the game because that requires a lot of time and work.
fiery light
I dont think perfect balance is possible or even desireable
cunning urchin
The game has a God Mode if you want easy mode. It doesn't need Spread Fire as it is now.
turbid needle
Deliberately unbalanced options are how we get terrible games like Modern Warfare 2019.
raw violet
i think appropriate feedback from my perspective is that spreadfire is fun and i enjoy how it makes me feel powerful but i feel terrible when i have to use any other attack hammer
fiery light
Okay so @dry ember would you agree that the other rail options need to be buffed to match SF then?
dry ember
Yes
fiery light
okay yeah thats a fair stance to take then
turbid needle
Oh, Spread Fire's okay but Infinity Chamber isn't?
fiery light
I mean SF should have -at least- 1 other comparable option
turbid needle
Oh, you meant buffed to SF's levels.
dry ember
Yeah
fiery light
at the moment its the best hammer in any game on any weapon
raw violet
and i think that i would rather just not use the rail than have to use any of the other attack hammers
maybe rocket hammer
but that's special
turbid needle
My issue is that Spread Fire was already very good and a viable option and the buff was completely unnecessary and in fact harkens back to old T-pose Nova.
(I do think current Nova could land a little faster)
raw violet
i saw some old videos of old spreadfire and thought, that doesn't look bad at all
not sure what the issue was previously
turbid needle
Worked with Hangover and Chill better, too.
raw violet
did they give a reason for the buff?
turbid needle
SGG is on the record as not giving out the "why" for their decisions.
dry ember
I'm sure it's number driven
fiery light
is largely based on that
dry ember
They probably have data that they go off of
raw violet
the history of nerfs and buffs is lost on players like me
cunning urchin
The buff wasn't due to community feedback.
dry ember
Although another big thing is Discord is not the whole community
cunning urchin
It doesn't have the 
in the patch notes.
dry ember
Or YouTube personality for that matter
dry ember
I really think they have some numbers that they use. My guess is that for the vast majority of players, spamming dash strike isn't what they do
Which takes a large chunk of power off SF
fiery light
of course
raw violet
that's true, in discussion earlier today there was a cohort of people who actually hated spreadfire
cause it slowed down their attack
dry ember
People who talk in this channel more or less know how to make it OP
fiery light
I'm afraid I err on the side of balancing towards the higher level of play
raw violet
so clearly, it's strength is lost on some portion of players
fiery light
as that is something that players will slowly work towards achieving
raw violet
whatever bro, you don't even wave dash
raw violet
not to go off topic for a second but i didn't realise you were that roy player
fiery light
hahahah yeah?
Roy is lit
but as you can tell
I care a lot more about Hades
than I do melee
LOL
So, I tend to actually try at it ;p
Whereas melee im just the "haha xd roy player"
cunning urchin
I don't play Smash. I only play fighting games.
fiery light
I mean yeah
cunning urchin
I'm nowhere near a high level player and I know how to make Spread Fire OP.
dry ember
Not a big Smash player but I'm something of a Lucina main myself
fiery light
nice
raw violet
spicy words
fiery light
Lucina is lit in ultimate
dry ember
got rekt everytime playing with friends though
fiery light
@raw violet To me platform fighters are just as equal to fighting games
like Rivals of Aether > SF5
raw violet
fair
fiery light
or Hades > most roguelikes
cunning urchin
You and your mixies and punchies and framesies and shieldsies and . . .
fiery light
:^)
raw violet
i can respect it
dry ember
I'm nowhere near a high level player and I know how to make Spread Fire OP.
Miss, don't be so modest, you cleared 32 heat and play on 20+ consistently. You more or less are the advanced player.
raw violet
i don't think ive ever played a roguelite before
fiery light
Yeah, I'd say genuinely anyone who can clear heat 32 is inherently good at the game
dry ember
Isaac is fun
raw violet
but sgg can always have my money
dry ember
But the gameplay is slowly being outdated
cunning urchin
Not really. I'd call that intermediate maybe. I've barely put any time in this game to get good.
raw violet
i have isaac but never could get into it
noclip has a nice documentary series on hades
which has been amazing
dry ember
Ff14?
fiery light
@cunning urchin I wish we had achievements so we could measure how many have cleared X
dry ember
As in Final Fantasy
raw violet
i'd be surprised if achievements didn't come with the full release
fiery light
they definitely will
I just hope theyre retroactive
I'm so bad at bow 32
i dont want to do it again
LOL
cunning urchin
I put 2~3k hours into SFV + probably that or more in research outside the game, and I'm far from high level in that. In comparison, I've barely 170 hours of playtime in Hades.
fiery light
Sure, but the difference is SF5 is one of the most popular fighting games of all time
and Hades is a comparatively smaller project
I guarentee you most dont have 170 hours in hades
cunning urchin
Probably. It's still very far from a whole lot of players, though.
dry ember
Imagine the average person, and realize that half of the population is worse than that.
dry ember
Hey
Same lol
I had 48 hours in for the first week
My friend messaged me saying I hit overtime playing a video game
I also recently graduated and have a full time job. Yikes
main osprey
I mean, congrats on that!
fiery light
agree
cunning urchin
Okay, then. As a high level Hades player, how do I go pro? Where are the sponsors?
fiery light
I mean speedrunning is the first step?
main osprey
Ask Supergiant
fiery light
Start getting faster and better at the game
theres apparently a 300$ bounty next month
raw violet
or start recording meme runs
fiery light
^
dry ember
Get that YouTube money
fiery light
Like how I got sea storm 3x in one day
raw violet
"is this boon/hammer good?"
fiery light
LOL
main osprey
I dare you
fiery light
"is spreadfire balanced"
its just going to be me showing Vori's 5min 32 heat run
LOL
cunning urchin
No no. I want money for clears. 1 heat is €100. 32 heat is €3200.
main osprey
honestly yeah
raw violet
tbf, vorimes 32 rail run he spent weeks routing a seed from tartarus through elysium
dry ember
Lol real talk
raw violet
which sounds like a lot of work
dry ember
After seeing speedruns
raw violet
certainly, that was his tool of choice
dry ember
I start randomly using cast before entering a door
fiery light
haha
dry ember
For good luck
raw violet
damn, i should do that too
fiery light
just do what i do
raw violet
for the lucks
fiery light
and ask for your boons
main osprey
jeez, I haven't even watched any speedruns yet xD
fiery light
you should watch mine ;D
main osprey
I gotta catch up
fiery light
just PB'd today
dry ember
Yeah apparently using casts and what not randomize the next room
raw violet
i think the all weapons and fresh files are probably the most palatable
cunning urchin
@fiery light you'd farm 14 heat at the very least. That's just TD2, FO2, EM2. €200 more per run for a pretty free Convenience Fee at 2.
raw violet
for those new to speedrunning
fiery light
more than a mechanic challenge
IN all honesty
watch mine for a newbie speedrun
Vorime for a god tier one
raw violet
and most representative of what the game is to a normal player
cunning urchin
The fastest speedruns take the most time, ironically.
fiery light
Yeah, I think I'm within the realms of most players
raw violet
seeded and routed speedruns is sort of a game of, how far can we push the limits of the game with what is currently possible
untold vortex
the irony, speedrunners spend more time to spend less time in game 
fiery light
yeahhh
which btw
#freehermes
I deal with run 1-3 more than any person out there (besides other FFers)
please
give me my wingy boy ;-;
its interesting Hermes atm is apparently bugged
cunning urchin
How is Hermes bugged?
dry ember
Is there any glitch found in Hades?
fiery light
tons
@cunning urchin in the hermes files hes supoosed to only appear once youve met all other olympians
untold vortex
if you mean useful glitches to speedrunning; not sure
fiery light
but thats not the case, you can meet him any time from run 4 onwards
which is weird
because the other stipulation (depth)
is there
so who knows
cunning urchin
I see I see.
dry ember
Yeah I mean speedrunning glitches. Although I imagine it's hard since each room is probably generated after the current room is clear, not before
fiery light
It depends on your definition of glitches
dry ember
So skipping clearing a room is hard.
fiery light
rng manipulation isnt really a glitch
dry ember
Yeah RNG manipulation is fine
fiery light
optimization using data mined info isnt really a glitch either
dry ember
I myself save scum sometimes
fiery light
trying to think of the biggest like
"glitch" we have
but honestly Hades is run surprisingly honestly
dry ember
Out of bound glitch probably doesn't exist
dry ember
Hmm yeah
I mean Transistor had OOB skip
And this game uses the game engine (or someone told me so)
So maybe possibly?
Although with how rooms are generated I don't see it being useful haha
fiery light
yea
the only things I consider being important for this
are phasing/cheesing bosses
dry ember
Fair.
fiery light
(like how you can stand on hades during omnidirectional laser)
dry ember
Yup
cunning urchin
Nice!
@dry ember you know, what keeps bugging me is I'm like 90% sure I still had a summon available and could have healed those 38 HP in the fight for a perfect clear title . . .
cunning urchin
These 38 HP. https://imgur.com/rQUxGdJ
dry ember
Lol what can I say but noob
Could have done it before you enter the room too
Since one charge on acorn
Smh my head
cunning urchin
Nah, I was at max HP when leaving for the surface.
dry ember
Oh you lose HP to the summons
cunning urchin
No, it was an urn.
dry ember
Tsh tsh, imagine being hit
cunning urchin
Oh, that tiny 1 under the 3 stars is how many charges I have left?
turbid needle
Yes.
dry ember
Yes.
cunning urchin
That could really use a rework.
dry ember
I mean not really a problem to me once I know it
cunning urchin
I don't see summon charges anywhere though, right? Because I'm always just guessing at how many I have unless I keep count (and I don't).
dry ember
But initially they should tell you where to look.
cunning urchin
Seriously? I've looked so many times and never saw an indication anywhere lol.
turbid needle
cunning urchin
Ah.
I've seen that. But also didn't see it lol.
Hey, at least I don't need to feel eternally anxious about maybe having had one heal left and not using it for the title.
cunning urchin
Yes, unlike a certain unnamed fox who just barely managed with 24 HP left.
dry ember
But the smartest one know he won't do more than what is needed. Facetanking means less work.
Less work is good.
naive tusk
Main reason why I don't care about my DD at all in the final fight
cunning urchin
Don't need any DDs if you deflect every hit.
dry ember
Yeah you could have recoup those 13 secs longer than my run if you facetanked like a champ too.
Shameful. Smh.
cunning urchin
13.5 sec.
cunning urchin
main osprey
just finished another run :D still on low heat, but I'm feeling better about starting to amp it up 
main osprey
Got Second Wave and Epic Poseidon's Aid, so the last fight was actually really easy
cunning urchin
Do you have your keepsakes leveled and mirror maxed (except for the rerolls) etc. yet?
main osprey
I have the Acorn and a couple others at max, and I've started on some of the other ones I use more frequently. And yeah, everything except for the rerolls maxed (of the ones that I use, not both sides of all of them)
cunning urchin
Thanks!
Yeah, I'd just get all my keepsakes up while doing runs. Maxed keepsakes give you a lot of flexibility during runs.
dry ember
Heat is more for bragging rights I think. And not that many care about it even.
Just play what you like
But do try high heat sometimes. I do think it's fun.
main osprey
still, I like to challenge myself, especially with this style of game. So I'm enjoying reading about how y'all play at high heat, and I'm taking notes :P
(mental ones, at least)
cunning urchin
What do you mean, the admiration and praise from clearing high heat is the only thing that keeps me alive.
main osprey
that's the one that makes everything else faster?
dry ember
Yeah
main osprey
I did that a run or two ago
just FO1, but it wasn't too bad so I'll do FO2 soon
didn't quite make it but I got pretty bad boons
dry ember
Yeah. I think that's the biggest different, along with Benefit Package and EM.
At least in my setup
main osprey
I've done a few with benefit package, it didn't make much of a difference
dry ember
The rest is filler here and there.
main osprey
ye
cunning urchin
Knowing how to improve your odds with boons can make a pretty big difference.
dry ember
Approval Process and Underworld Customs are still annoying, but at least it's not gameplay heavy
main osprey
yeah, I'm gonna wait on those two
dry ember
Yeah what nyaa said.
main osprey
yeah, I'm starting to learn the trees and other tricks
also stuff like using trials to get heroic boons
dry ember
Yeah.
I tend to skip that in Elysium
But Tartarus and Asphodel is fine.
Also you are on a 6k6 mirror.
cunning urchin
Like, if you want a Doom build and you pick a Blade Rift boon, he's gonna offer you all those tier 2 Blade Rift boons along with Doom boons for the entire rest of the run . . .
dry ember
I do have crutches in mirror upgrades
main osprey
6k6?
dry ember
I had 18k for mine I think or something like that
dry ember
I would say that's good, but more help
main osprey
I guess I should start maxing out the other side of the mirror as well lol
cunning urchin
You can just use keys to switch talents.
Keys are the first resource to become practically obsolete.
dry ember
Yeah. My point is I did have more help for my runs too.
main osprey
I've mainly been spending mine on nectar
main osprey
I'm not at the point yet where I use Ambrosia for anything other than buying Titan's Blood
I'm not spending all of it, dw
main osprey
I'm saving most of it, just one or two when I'm a little short on upgrading an aspect
dry ember
Seriously though, Dusa took like 15 something Ambrosia for her bond.
dry ember
She is the exception I think
main osprey
no spoil the rest of the companion pls tho <3
main osprey
no worries xD
I've already seen a decent bit of it, the price of being active in the spoiler channel
dry ember
True haha
main osprey
managed to avoid learning anything about Skelly though, which I'm happy about. want to figure that out myself if I can
cunning urchin
I've never actually used that summon.
dreamy raven
I am extremely disappointed Athena-Aphrodite-Ares duos don't merge together for infinite damage 
dreamy raven
true. but still sad :(
main osprey
aight, I'm off for the night. Thanks y'all!
dry ember
Night.
dreamy raven
o/
cunning urchin
Good times. https://imgur.com/a/qZJxN8o
dry ember
Which weapon?
cunning urchin
Varatha.
Didn't make it. I got Ice Wine exactly once in all my runs, and Scintillating Feast, too.
I don't like Trippy Shot vs Hades. It keeps auto-aiming at urns and everything but him.
And he moves too fast and randomly to really aim it at him, too.
smoky wolf
I only really like to pick trippy shot with Hera aspect now
cunning urchin
I still don't get the appeal of Authority at all? Every time I've tried it, it's done practically nothing for me.
cunning urchin
The odds of finding the 1-2 Gods you want are just awful.
dry ember
Not necessarily true
Also you are not forced to take a god you don't want
Which is great, and reroll out of gems
cunning urchin
Rerolling gemstone rooms is still poor value.
dry ember
Fair, but I hate gems
raw violet
you don't reroll gemrooms
dry ember
For that sweet 5hp bonus
cunning urchin
20 Gold has the same value as 5 HP, unless you have Convenience Fee.
raw violet
it's not necessarily poor value since you get so many rerolls
raw violet
it might not be optimal, but that's whatever
dry ember
Also I'ma head to bed. It's like so so late here. My sleep schedule is all messed up.
naive tusk
Gnight Fox! 😊
dry ember
Night
cunning urchin
Good night!
raw violet
fated authority is what allowed me to get merciful end by miniboss in tartarus for my 32 malphon run
and then athena legendary by end of asphodel
but if you don't like it, then you don't like it. the options are there for different people
cunning urchin
The odds of rerolling into one specific God in Tartarus with 10 rerolls is just 61%.
raw violet
each door only rolls about 4-5 different possibilities
and some gods appear to show up more often in association with others
it's not equal probability amongst all gods
miniboss doors that show a god, only roll gods as well
it's still gambling
but still, it's 10 instances of gambling
and then once you have the two/three gods you want, you've probably noticed yourself, the doors start to offer those gods more often
but those are just my experiences
cunning urchin
If it's 5 different options, and you know them, that's a 94% chance to roll one specific God with 10 rerolls. That's a lot better than 61%, at the very least.
raw violet
if it doesn't work for you then there's nothing wrong with persuasion
sometimes i'll use 6-8 rerolls in tartarus alone
just cause i can still use a keepsake in asphodel
and it feels like i'm rigging the rest of the doors to favor the gods that i already have
cunning urchin
If it works like this, it should be explained in the game somewhere.
raw violet
granted, it doesn't always work out, but i've had more success than not
cunning urchin
Persuasion is very intuitive and works just like you'd expect. If I'm rerolling a chamber reward that has 0 chance of giving me the reward I want because it's not in that 4-5 rewards pool, I'd like to know that beforehand.
raw violet
they're not hard and fast rules that i can tell
the only reason i know about the 4-5 is partially from experience but also cause there's a thread somewhere of someone giving themselves unlimited rerolls to understand the door mechanics
young gorge
Oh huh that's pretty interesting..
raw violet
the god associations is just anecdotal
but i've heard other people who've put many more hours into the game sort of hint at it
and i'm not even sure if it's a global association or if it's a per game thing
cunning urchin
Hmmm.
raw violet
persuasion is harder to get a bead on cause i rarely have enough rerolls to reroll more than twice
cunning urchin
If God's you've picked in your current run are more likely to be in the pool for chamber rewards, you would often see those "assocations" as a result.
raw violet
and the failed rerolls stand out too much for me to really get a sense of when they work well and when they don't
cunning urchin
With Persuasion, you're actually better off rerolling only once unless you really really want something.
cunning urchin
That gives you more rerolls over a run, and greatly increases the chances for strong boons.
Also important to understand boon trees, so you know if there's actually a good chance to get something better from a reroll or no.
raw violet
that's true of both
for the instances where you are aiming for a specific boon and don't get it out of one door
cunning urchin
Persuasion + God's Pride gives you a lot of Epic boons over a run.
raw violet
sometimes just take a core boon you don't need to remove it from the pool of your next door roll
novel prawn
ok, I just noticed this now, but: if you shoot your railgun special and you walk inside it, as soon as the grenade lands, Zagreus will stay still for half a second... I'm not sure why he does that, it's not even hurting him
viscid vale
Thanks @raw violet ill try to be quicker...
young gorge
FO2 kicks my ass
i just realized that's also why i've probably been losing to low heat
hades spin 2 win too fast cannot dash out
turbid arch
@turbid needle Out of curiosity, why did you downvote the feedback on the nasty dash not being able to break Hades' Cast Stones?
proud storm
pursuit https://i.imgur.com/NEuIg5u.jpg
turbid arch
"Run." - Intense music starts
viscid vale
😂
proud storm
turbid arch
That reflexe giving you that extra Than damage though
narrow halo
Is there a way to get discount at the vendor ?
proud storm
no
hades second phase but i only use my dash and never take damage https://streamable.com/jhnwau
narrow halo
@proud storm I finished the game with a dash only and 4 duos
proud storm
nice
narrow halo
Btw the lvl 3 design sucks
I rather fight the boss every chamber instead of enamys who blinds in the environment
polar sinew
@novel prawn Which version of the Rail are you using? Cuz one of 'em allows you to absorb the explosion and you get empowered shots afterwards
novel prawn
@polar sinew well, I was actually using Aspect of Hestia, not the one that absorbs your explosion (forgot its name)