Hey, don’t forget Serrated
#h1-builds-and-combat
lime estuary
sacred idol
rail has the healthiest variety of hammers, bow has 3 special, shield has 3, sword literally has 2.
so yeah I do think it has merit but specify which weapons actually lack the hammer diversity
naive tusk
The sword already has hammers that change the attack so maybe they swapped it in their case haha
nova spade
Rail's hammers kinda conflict with the non-Eris variants I feel, though.
hollow sorrel
More hammers makes it more likely that we’ll get hammers that are useless for our weapon aspect
It’s bad enough that half the hammers are useless for Hestia
And the devs decided to create a new hammer for the sword that will literally be a game over for high heat players
nova spade
For example, it is absolutely criminal that Hestia's effect with the shotgun hammer shoots one regular empowered shot seperate from the shotgun bullets.
hollow sorrel
We don’t need more hammers, we need the existing hammers to get balanced, so they aren’t all over the place in power level
sacred idol
What hammer, Cursed Slash?
hollow sorrel
Yes
twilit stag
Rail might have a big variety of hammers, but most of them are useless for one of the only two usable aspects
sacred idol
I mean, I'd rather have some of the boring ones replaced
hollow sorrel
Cursed slash is game over on high heat. It means no choice +2 can be a game ender, if it forced you into it
hollow sorrel
I think a lot of my high heat games have no choice +1. It matter what build you are going for
nova spade
Cursed Slash can be a carry if you get the Athena and Dionisus damage reduction and then do Aphrodite stuff. That was fun.
twilit stag
No choice and budget cuts are the only ones I never enabled for 32 heat
hollow sorrel
Cursed slash is death when you pump up all the enemy boosting punishments
sacred idol
F
cosmic heart
where you've got the thrust upgrade
sacred idol
neither of those are especially good
hunter's mark is a meme of a status curse and clean kill, as I JUST found out with the curse of math, only adds a tiny bit of crit damage
cosmic heart
what about hide breaker
sacred idol
still, probably take clean kill, every (very) little bit helps since you have thrust
I mean, are you struggling with armor on nemesis?
probably not
cosmic heart
well these are the cards i've been dealt
sacred idol
clean kill is just a very small DPS increase, but it'll be more reliable in your case.
if you do NEED armor pierce in elysium then hide breaker, but otherwise no
you've got like 70% crit chance at least on thrust, right
cosmic heart
yeah just about
stiff stone
the thing about the thrust crit is that you need to get the combo off, but if you play with overtime, you will get slapped
sacred idol
Oh?
What do you mean by need to combo
I think sword just kinda interacts poorly with FO tbh
sacred idol
oh, that does suck
dim rapids
three hit combo is pretty easy to do
attack twice then dash attack using the third attack
stiff stone
@hollow sorrel i don't think the devs intend to make all the hammers doable for high heat runs, but I do agree that many are pretty dull
attack twice then dash attack using the third attack
@dim rapids || Hades || says hi
dim rapids
i've done cruel thrust runs on hades at 40% overtime
lol
if you're having trouble it's probably to do with spacing, not enough dashes, or just mis-dashing
stiff stone
spacing? with the sword? wtf is that
it's not like i'm just wailing on the guy mindlessly
w/e
dim rapids
cruel thrust is actually pretty ridiculous if you can get it right
though personally i like the dash one better
naive tusk
Oh, I didnt know Cruel Thrust could be used after a dash 😮
nova spade
I feel like a lot of problems would be solved by higher base weapon damage. Maybe not initially, but somehow. For example, Critting for double damage on a light tickle is just a firm poke, not a punch.
Weapons are fun, but very rarely do I feel like they're the biggest source of my dps even with boons making them better.
Besides getting extra dashes and just spamming dash strikes.
naive tusk
I will have to give it a shot
stiff stone
the only way I got to make the sword work in high heat was with a lot of defensive boons
for melle runs that is
dim rapids
attack > attack > dash > attack (will be the thrust move instead of a dash attack)
sacred idol
Tbh, I thought Cruel Thrust WAS the dash :/
dim rapids
and you can squeeze in multiple dashes
stiff stone
i'll try it out, see maybe it's gonna make a difference
naive tusk
Does it have to a dash+attack simultaneously or can I delay the attack a bit while dashing?
sacred idol
@nova spade I do think sword could have a little bit more base to make zag runs smoother
dim rapids
you can delay it
gaunt gorge
You can delay a little. There is a solid window after dashing where the attack still performs a dash attack.
dim rapids
also merciful end on nemesis is probably the easiest build so
gaunt gorge
Practice with skelly
dim rapids
or you can go full big boy crits with artemis/aphro heart rend
having athena dash makes life easier in general as well
winged bone
wait
naive tusk
Athena Dash 💛
winged bone
romancing is a thing
naive tusk
Yep
stiff stone
yea but if you rely on specific boons/combos, that makes the wep redundant and kinda plain
sacred folio
I don't think Cruel Thrust works on dash-strike but I haven't verified it in anyway.
stiff stone
like, if you win only with a specific combo, you know smth is wrong with the wep
sacred idol
mmm, yeah, like I said
the sword has systemic issues
namely: it REALLY gets hard countered by the basic nature of high heat, where everything is fast and lethal and expects some form of defensive play from you
stiff stone
hmm true
gaunt gorge
I haven't tried this on high heat, but using the sword with aspect of Zag and the Hermes charm is pretty fun. Lots of speed, lots of dodge.
sacred idol
yeah that's a low heat build for memes and fun
not really 'viable' unless you're drowning in dps on your main boons
gaunt gorge
Got it.
winged bone
Seriously Guan Yu is so op with the right power ups
sacred idol
I'll always be the first person to advocate playing for fun over efficiency, but I do feel kind of disappointed that a lot of fun builds just aren't viable
winged bone
its just so satisfying making the spinny boi make the bosses go nap nap
stiff stone
and I mean after playing on high heat for so long, going back kinda makes the game trivial
like.. it's too easy
lol
sacred idol
I'm physically not good enough to think that 
stiff stone
oh cmon haha
gaunt gorge
You are not alone.
stiff stone
I mean.. i've invested a bit too much time, maybe that's why lol
sacred idol
dude, I'm literally not
hollow sorrel
If the devs don’t intend for all the hammers to be doable for high heat, then at the very least, they could stop making additional hammers that actually make the game worse on high heat. A hammer that takes away a shield’s ability to block? Really?
winged bone
lul i just slept through hades
stiff stone
I mean, i've beaten 20 heat with it
i wouldn't pick it for 32, but I wouldn't say it makes it worse
if all of them would be perfect, they'd all be just stat upgrades, like most of them already are
but that's boring af
also, I feel very few people go for high heat runs, simply because the base game is pretty rough
sacred idol
They can be mechanically interesting without being bad
stiff stone
so having hammers/boons that are more fun, rather than functional makes more sense
sacred idol
world smasher would literally just be improved by having block
it'd be a fine hammer then
zero problems with it other than its inability to keep holding
stiff stone
doesn't it tho? for like a split second
hollow sorrel
The whole point of the shield is that you can also use blocking offensively, to cut down the amount of time wasted dashing
sacred idol
for a split second
rather than, you know, held like every other bullrush hammer in the game
for instance, charged shot
which has huge damage and is safe
stiff stone
I see, maybe they will change it. I think the no block thing was because before-hand it was completely automated
I loved that variant, just keep the attack pressed and you become a wrecking train
hollow sorrel
I guess I don’t understand why in games like Necrodancer and Gungeon, I’m pretty much happy to see almost every weapon and upgrade in the game, but in Hades, so much of the stuff is garbage, because it would “be boring” if everything were useful
stiff stone
because those are finished games with years of development behind them, while your gripes are against week-old changes which are prone for more changes/updates
also those games have one difficulty more or less, and don't get as hard as Hades can
sacred idol
I mean, Gungeon is pretty tough, isn't it
stiff stone
it is
sacred idol
And that's what feedback is for.
stiff stone
but hades can be much harder
sacred idol
To tell them what does and does not work in those week old changes
If they were set in stone, why would we even talk about improving them?
stiff stone
exactly
sacred idol
that said, I do believe that everything being useful is ideal
stiff stone
for sure!
sacred idol
bad effects don't make the gameplay experience more interesting
stiff stone
I have my gripes as well, and I try to voice them in feedback
sacred idol
they narrow the pool of things people use because, well, they're bad.
like wave pounding
that's functionally one less boon choice for maybe 90% of builds within Poseidon's builds
now, I said make it multiplicative, but that's not really a good way to math with rarity calcs
they'd have to go through some hoops to do that, and now after seeing the code I'd say to make it a bigger additive bonus instead
stiff stone
or just allow bosses to be splashed around LUL
sacred idol
that would be broken as hell, because wall slams tend to interrupt
stiff stone
ah right
but there are other broken things in the game rn
like... chaming bosses
have you ever charmed asterius? he absolutely shreads theseus hah
deflecting boss attacks
sacred idol
yeah lmao the charm bug too
stiff stone
some of the legendary keepsakes break fights as well
stuck bough
https://gyazo.com/766146576b88782b1cfa0e13ddf956c9 this was like using grapeshot in MTG lol
sacred idol
I like watching enemies roast.
Pls no remove
@turbid arch sounds like an f10 problem, actually
turbid arch
Don't think it is a bug. The game probably just assumes that you recalled the spear when you pick it up, which is an actual attack being used and would make sense.
naive tusk
Hi Icebox 
turbid arch
Hello, Heartful Peach.
I go with Oversight. It is not broken, problematic or otherwise troublesome, it is just counterintuitive and feels like it devalues the already worst weapon in the game even more.
naive tusk
The developers probably made it so the pickup is also considered an attack in its coding
sacred idol
it's hardly the worst weapon in the game, though
that would probably be the zagreus sword or rail, relatively speaking
or the zagreus shield - other than its defense, that thing does pathetic damage without great boons, after all
turbid arch
Zagreus Rail is amazing. Zagreus Sword may be not as good, but Poseidon and Nemesis are amazing.
Spear has 2 good weapon aspects, Guan Yu Aspect is one
Hades and Achilles are the other one.
(and yes, I counted two weapon aspects as 1 good weapon aspect)
turbid arch
I count both of them more like a 0.5.
turbid arch
Also, the regular shield was the best weapon in the game before weapon aspects were introduced.
sacred idol
could use a bit of buff to not be limited to # of attacks
Before aspects.
Now it offers very little.
turbid arch
Even if Chaos and Zeus may be better than the regular, the regular shield is still strong and works with a lot of things.
dim rapids
you can use any combo at low heat
sacred idol
Zagreus Rail with what build?
dim rapids
right now i'm running chaos egg and just rolling with whatever i'm given
turbid arch
Zagreus Rail? Whatever you want, really.
frozen pier
what is considered High Heat?
turbid arch
I liked shotgun builds of all sorts and Zeus Attack builds the most.
frozen pier
15+?
stiff stone
yea
dim rapids
15-20 imo
sacred idol
Not sure how it offers more than either of the other Rails without a very specific set of boons
and hammers
rancid shore
zagreus rail is worse than the other two
stiff stone
idk if a max heat run is possible
rancid shore
when all the options are so good, it becomes the worst of them
turbid arch
I value Zagreus and Hestia about equally, but for different reasons.
Eris is in a class of it's own and easily the best rail boon.
sacred idol
That being said it's mostly subjective
rancid shore
worst does not necessarily mean most bad; it can also legitimately mean least good
sacred idol
very few truly bad aspects, if any
the spear is great, honestly.
it has one of the strongest zagreus aspects
dim rapids
worst zag aspect is probably just shield
who needs DR when you can just kill them before they hit you
turbid arch
The spear is the worst weapon and it needed a weapon aspect that changes around the entire kit to make it good.
rancid shore
what? zag spear is great
stiff stone
@turbid arch not really the worst, it's one of the best imo
sacred idol
I meant Zag Shield is boring and not great, but Spear is fantastic
turbid arch
Although it needs to be said:
sacred idol
Achilles, the only thing I would change is to remove the attack cap and make it a duration based buff.
turbid arch
I play on keyboard and mouse.
stiff stone
as do i
rancid shore
me too thanks
turbid arch
I can imagine the spear being much better if you don't need to aim it thanks to the controller giving you free auto aim.
stiff stone
i mean.. you need to aim with half of the other weps m8
turbid arch
Aside from that, the spear has basicly three builds you can go with.
- Flurry Jab for rapid fire attacking builds.
- Charge Attack Builds.
- Disappointment.
sacred idol
????
stiff stone
lol
stiff stone
no spin build eh?
looks to me like you're ignoring a main attack move from your arsenal
turbid arch
Charge Attack = Spin Build
turbid arch
It does not.
sacred idol
sad
turbid arch
And I do not ignore explosive launcher.
sacred idol
explosive charge then
turbid arch
It's more like "If you need to play explosive launcher to make the spear work, you might as well play the bow or the rail instead" to me.
And again, a lot of these assumptions are based on the idea that you actually do get the correct selection of hammer boons.
Imagine playing Hades Aspect and being offered Flurry Jab for both hjammers.
sacred idol
I mean. It's not like you can always make the basic attack viable without hammers
turbid arch
I mean, here is the thing:
sacred idol
[laughs in zag sword]
turbid arch
We are discussing what kind of hammers you need in order to make the spear, any spear "viable"
sacred idol
No, we're not
turbid arch
meanwhile, you can bring a weapon like Zeus Aspect or Poseidon Aspect and get a great run regardless of your hammers.
sacred idol
the spear's viable without getting the perfect hammers
Poseidon doesn't care because it's a cast weapon...
turbid arch
Exactly!
But Zeus Aspect isn't.
Neither is Chaos' Aspect.
Hestia and Eris also work with almost everything being offered.
With Zagreus, you'd prefer to get attack related ones of course, but that is a fairly small limitation overall (and no absolute)
sacred idol
I mean, if you're not getting a build that synergizes with a massive magazine, Zagreus rail doesn't really add much to your experience
of course one hammer also happens to invalidate its existence on top of that
turbid arch
Yeah.
sacred idol
that is, if you get delta, you have no aspect
rancid shore
(more than one)
turbid arch
Just like Flurry Jab invalidates the existance of Hades Aspect.
sacred idol
flurry reduces its value
turbid arch
How so?
I love the combination of both.
Now more than ever that there is that hammer boon that gives you a continuous +1 for every successive hit.
You can build great builds around it with just Zeus, Poseidon, Poseidon + Zeus, Aphrodite and Demeter
Ares too if you want to be fancy about it, but I am not a fan of that one.
sacred idol
You can still do that with spears, to be honest
turbid arch
With the spear attack, yes.
sacred idol
I feel like you're just underrating the spear because you dislike it.
turbid arch
And I feel like you're overrating the spear because you like it.
Evidently, we think that we are being highly subjective about the matter.
Which is fine by me.
rancid shore
special damage + range + speed? it's very heavily incentivizing special
and it works
sacred idol
it is mostly a preference thing
but yes, it works with high damage specials especially
even if it doesn't explode, just being able to toss aphrodite specials with the equivalent of a partial hermes boon/extra damage is never a bad thing
turbid arch
You go with the Zagreus Spear, you hope for either explosive launcher or vicious skewer.
You can't get either of those, you have no special/weapon aspect.
rancid shore
You say that like those are requirements to make it viable, but they're not
sacred idol
What I am disagreeing with, hardline, is your assertion that the spear isn't VIABLE without those perfect builds.
rancid shore
It's not as good without them, but it's fine
sacred idol
That is objectively incorrect
turbid arch
You can slap Multi Skewer on it and get decent room clear with it
sacred idol
without those hammers, you have a solid special
turbid arch
but it leaves you basicly flaunting against bosses.
sacred idol
also like, most spear hammers are special lmao
turbid arch
Yeah, but said "solid special" is still overshadowed heavily by your attack.
Both are time-intensive, so you need to decide which one to use.
And in almost all cases, the regular attack is easier and more efficient and safer to use than the special.
Upgrading your attack gives you a better dash attack, a better regular attack and a better charge attack.
The special forces you to stand still, use a slow moving low damage projectile that you also have to stand still for to recall it
rancid shore
It's also much higher ranged, which is a distinct advantage it has over attacking
sacred idol
Wait
What
You don't even have to stand still while using the special at all.
wtf?
turbid arch
No, that would be my line
What?
You use the special, Zagreus stands still.
(same case for attacking of course).
sacred idol
I mean, he stands still for a brief moment, but you can absolutely throw between dashes
and recall between dashes, or while attacking
*by attacking
literally just throwing it right now
turbid arch
When you recall, he stands still, raises his hands and the spear comes back.
You play with overtime being on, that gives enemies enough time to get down to business on you.
sacred idol
I mean, sword gets hit even worse by overtime because you literally have no range unless you run poseidon
and when you run poseidon you're not using the sword as your dps
turbid arch
Yeah, the range issue hurts the sword, I agree on that front.
You still have an easy time killing things with both Poseidon and Nemesis though.
sacred idol
the basic sword suffers far more on high heats...
rancid shore
If you're playing with overtime on, you should be dodging first, recalling second
sacred idol
nemesis is far riskier on heat
rancid shore
The same way you shouldn't be attacking while in the way of an enemy
final socket
@sacred idol it looks locked?
sacred idol
pins
turbid arch
@final socket Check the pinned messages in the channel as Felis told you, the instructions on how to write in that channel are listed there.
final socket
Oh, OK, I'm new to Discord, but I think I figured it out. Missed the thumbtack icon.
turbid arch
All good, friend.
sacred idol
People have also mentioned that aspects like Eris Rail end up MUCH harder to use on Overtime 2
Because you really don't have time to always position the bomb
final socket
Deleted and moved to feedback. Thanks for the help, all!
rancid shore
As someone who play exclusively on overtime 2, that's true. You have to lead it to where you're dashing. It's kinda hard
sacred idol
@hollow sorrel curious as to why you don't want an Achilles buff, is there a secret property that makes it crazier than expected?
hollow sorrel
- a time window is the exact property the Hades spear has, and 2) the current Achilles makes it much easier to pre-cast the buff
sacred idol
Limited to 2 attacks seems like it really slams the brakes on its DPS though
Alternatively just raise the attack limit?
hollow sorrel
There’s also the issue that if I somehow get a bunch of cast crystals, being able to rapid throw them all buffed, is a bit much
sacred idol
oh right, the buff is pretty big
turbid arch
Someone suggested that instead of getting a buff, Zagreus should just use a fancy attack when he reaches his spear.
sacred idol
other than casts, though, I'm not sure it benefits attacks a lot
turbid arch
Which I personally like much more myself too.
sacred idol
because when will you really get the full benefit on two attacks?
hollow sorrel
The spear’s bull rush move itself can be used offensively, so it’s doesn’t necessary just brake the dps to use it
turbid arch
The best part is when you use the Achilles spear with multiskewer
Half of the time, you jump to it, yxou find yourself swimming in lava, which is hilarious.
hollow sorrel
Using it to make a bugged charged attack, or two special attacks can be useful too
sacred idol
wait, two special?
hollow sorrel
It doesn’t need to be used just for the actual attack
sacred idol
I thought it only affected attack+cast.
hollow sorrel
The spear throw
sacred idol
it says so, right?
rancid shore
it's just attack/cast
turbid arch
No, Hades affects attack and special.
Achilles is just Attack/Cast
if the Achilles Aspect would affect itself, that'd be actually pretty neat.
There is this cool thing with the Achilles Aspect that you can do.
hollow sorrel
Does it worked on the charged attacks, at least?
turbid arch
If you dash and then middash recall to your spear, you actually apply the dash attack you have on enemies along the way. Works best and most visually with Poseidons Dash.
THAT should just be a basic thing the Achilles Aspect should do.
turbid arch
Pretty sure I did at some point.
sacred idol
sea storm achilles would be shenanigans
turbid arch
Yeah.
I just checked, I suggested it on 22.01 of this year.
Surprisingly, it got mostly ignored.
Only 5 votes in total.
sacred idol
Oh, right
Does it apply PER HIT of a dash attack?
Or per swing?
That fundamentally changes how it should be looked at.
turbid arch
Hard to say. It sounds much more impressive and applicable than it actually is.
When I did it, I would use my dash and middash immediatly press special again to go back to my spear, ideally in a way that allows me to go through enemies.
sacred idol
heh, got artemis this time, now I can have crappy lightning rod and finish teh fates
turbid arch
Poseidons dash is pretty wide and I hit enemies along the way once.
Lightning Rod is amazing.
One of my favorites,.
turbid arch
It deals 100 damage periodicly, which is pretty strong by itself.
rancid shore
It's only really useful if you're not actually using your cast
turbid arch
The range on it is surprisingly high and if you have a couple cast stones, you can create a field in which your enemies get dealt all the damage.
sacred idol
heh. neat. I have artemis special, appropriate
turbid arch
Also, the lightning applies all of Zeus' Effects.
sacred idol
But you have to have dropped casts
turbid arch
Jolted, legendary, double strike
And?
You put your cast in your enemies and wait for it to come out or you miss intentionally.
rancid shore
I'd always aimed nowhere useful and kited enemies into it
turbid arch
I don't even kite enemies purposely towards it all that much, again, the range is surpisingly big.
sacred idol
takes forever to set up that way
Does it proc on non-embedding casts like Trippy, though?
turbid arch
I mean, there are plenty ways to play around that.
sacred idol
important question
turbid arch
No.
But these casts usually last pretty shortly, so they can be used effectively to place the stones regardless.
I rarely get out of my way to purposely get Lightning Rod
but when it does show up, I almost always take it.
rancid shore
As long as they're dropped as bloodstones, they do the thing
turbid arch
Exactly.
sacred idol
on an unrelated note, lmao, I'm now a delta chamber convert.
gods all damnit.
it's only useful when you dash, tho
turbid arch
That one left me rather unimpressed.
rancid shore
So you can aim it to a wall in the middle of a fight or pump them all into one enemy and kill it so they drop
rancid shore
It's weird to play around, but it's enough to be useful
sacred idol
It's a DPS loss when not dashing, but significantly increases DPS when dashing, as you can functionally cancel the delay
turbid arch
Lightning Rod adds a whole new dimension to gameplay.
sacred idol
Delta is just... strange like that.
turbid arch
The caststones lying around never really becomes part of your gameplan
but with Lightning Rod, it does.
deft quiver
hey guys i just joined this discord to say this
rancid shore
lmao
deft quiver
this game is great*****
sacred idol
owned
turbid arch
What
deft quiver
lmao
turbid arch
What did he even say?!
deft quiver
sh*t
rancid shore
a naughty word
sacred idol
Is LR legit better than Freak Accident, which it replaced?
turbid arch
Oh my god, I hate this PC culture.
rancid shore
doing that's not allowed either; the mods will get mad at you
deft quiver
Right i'll behave then
deft quiver
anyways just finished my first run and im loving this
sacred idol
proposed how to improve Survival rooms
rancid shore
do survival rooms even spawn on tight deadline
turbid arch
I don't think they do.
Can't remember the last time I saw one. Which is good.
Meanwhile, Thanatos all day.
sacred idol
I believe they actually do, according to others
turbid arch
Thanatos is funny, I can't remember the last time I saw people on youtube meeting him without immediatly being like "Uuuugh, Thanatos...."
sacred idol
on another note I have a wombo combo of zeus attack, artemis special, and support fire with some poms in them for my latest eris run
this is fine.
turbid arch
Yet they went and increased the encounter rate.
sacred idol
got Than just after a fountain after a surv room lul
turbid arch
I mean, that is fine.
rancid shore
according to my discord search of "tight deadline survival" they don't
unless it was changed
turbid arch
It is much worse when you are in Elysium, halfway beaten to death and Thanatos shows up and is like
"HEY, I HEARD YOU NEED HELP?!"
and brings a whole entourage of fools having a great old time overwhelming you while Thanatos is floating around somewhere being useless.
deft quiver
actually isnt he kinda helpful in elysium ?
like u just let him kill the soldiers
and u get the souls yourself
sacred idol
Who should I take first in a duo room for Zeus/Artemis in this case?
deft quiver
I won that way a few times
sacred idol
yeah agreed, he can be useful there
turbid arch
Zeus.
Artemis and Aphrodite are usually the gods I make angry the most.
Their annoyances are fairly easy to overcome.
sacred idol
Storm Lightning Epic, or Static Discharge Rare
Discharge I assume
because any status is good status?
turbid arch
Depends. Storm Lightning can give you the legendary
If you are fishing for that and don't have any other prerequisites and think you will meat Zeus again, it's a valid choice.
If not, Static Discharge every day.
sacred idol
on one hand, the legendary would give me a crapton more lightning
on the other hand, status...
then again, Eris is Eris, it functionally has baked in Priv Stat.
turbid arch
If everything else fails, bring Zeus' keepsake to Styx.
You only live once.
Or, in Zags case, about 4 times.
sacred idol
started with Zeus
can't do that :p
that said, they can re-offer the same boon, right?
turbid arch
Yes
chrome geyser
Wait; how does eris have functionally baked in priv stat?
sacred idol
its buff calcs the same
to Absolutely Everything
so it has bootleg priv, still better to have both, but it's something
chrome geyser
Ah ok; so you say +60% damage output functionally is similar to the privilige making +50% damage received on enemy side.
I thought you thought that the eris debuffs enemies; and i was about to correct you 🤣
sacred idol
yeah, kinda
chrome geyser
BTW i missed the head of the conversation; but gods will reoffer you boons that you purged
chrome geyser
It will still be offered
sacred idol
Piercing Fire or Inescapable Blast
chrome geyser
Seeing them do not remove them from the god boon pool
sacred idol
on zeus attack artemis special
sacred idol
eris
sacred idol
hm, really?
chrome geyser
thats not hazard lol
chrome geyser
can go either way; where are you?
sacred idol
Rocket is an option, but that means Eris buff is melee range.
tartarus
this is the spiciest tartarus I've ever seen, plenty of boons and a hammer
sacred idol
uhhhh
chrome geyser
but eris likes inescapable
sacred idol
support fire, zeus attack, storm lightning.
chrome geyser
for general purpases
sacred idol
Which other gods should I throw in?
I have Zeus/Art so
who would make the best combos
chrome geyser
You have artemis athena; i would say demeter for homing laser cast
some status dash
eris is forgiving tbh; you can go either way
chrome geyser
athena can do status with dash; you just have to get brilliant light
deft quiver
maybe try to get hermes' attack speed for more crit opportunities
sacred idol
I am specifically aiming for lightning rod this run btw
the fates must be appeased™️
hollow sorrel
Tight deadline games can’t get survival rooms
sacred idol
Oh, okay.
chrome geyser
Oh; then artemis cast is better
sacred idol
editing that out
chrome geyser
enemies run away from the PWNL450R crystals too often
sacred idol
they're just boring then lul
alright, so who's god number three
I could try for poseidon, but not sure that's a good pick on rail. Dash, that is
chrome geyser
does survival rooms count against the timer in tight deadline?
hollow sorrel
It’s just my speculation, but I sort of feel like any survival rooms get converted to Than rooms during tight deadline games, because it sort of feels like I see Than more often during tight deadline e
sacred idol
well, surv rooms are just bad normally
chrome geyser
So rail has issues with clearing styx when there are a lot of vermin
for that i like poseidon dash
athena dash works too
sacred idol
Hmmm. I'm thinking Athena.
chrome geyser
but when your enemy is crazy mobile; you can use poseidon dash only to clear rooms
sacred idol
Deadly Reversal is NICE.
rancid shore
at least if you kill enemies in survival rooms you might get very small amounts of gold
chrome geyser
get athena. Athena dash is pretty much the best dash
sacred idol
And more importantly, I am bad at living
prime knoll
Poseidon dash is all you need in Styx
sacred idol
I'm bad at living on bosses with EM
chrome geyser
athena lol
chrome geyser
or force yourself to learn how to live by going poseidon
athena's extra DD boons saved my bum a few times
sacred idol
I do not learn well by force
I just die faster
not looking for an extra speedy trip to the house tonight
chrome geyser
Do you have any heat on?
rancid shore
I usually only lose DDs to the elysium fight with EM on
sacred idol
I fear the megagorgon
rancid shore
it's just so unforgiving; if you make one mistake, your health bar is just gone
sacred idol
yeah lol screw asterius on EM
prime knoll
I drop my DDs against the furies but have had little problem with the other bosses/minibosses (at least by comparison). 😅
sacred idol
I see a Poseidon! Do I lock him as fourth god?
prime knoll
I feel like the Elysium boss fight is easier on EM because Theseus summons aid at lower HP
What are your other gods atm?
sacred idol
Nah, only Flood Shot left
sacred idol
zeus attack arty special athena dash
second Hermes sounds better
mainly since, I ONLY have a cast left
prime knoll
aye. Poseidon's slot boons are not created equal
Dash is top two among dashes, and his other boons are 🤷🏽
chrome geyser
I suggest starting out with forced overtime as the first heat; as it makes everything more difficult. If you learn to play with that it translates to everything.
deft quiver
btw should i try playing heat modes right now or should I finish a run with each weapon before
chrome geyser
my winrate is like 30% at most
chrome geyser
i would do one with each weapon; and possibly each aspect
sacred idol
my winrate with FO2 would be 10% at most
chrome geyser
to see what you enjoy.
rancid shore
The first heat I did was forced overtime
sacred idol
I did it once
deft quiver
Need more titan blood to get all aspects
sacred idol
just to fate it up
deft quiver
Which is why i was considering trying heat right away
chrome geyser
i think one victory with each weapon and doing fates list is enough to unlock everything
rancid shore
you don't get more rewards unless you complete the previous tier of heat
deft quiver
alright i'll focus on that then
chrome geyser
(but you do need to do a different heat each time to do the fates?)
prime knoll
I did the same, Felis. I returned to it for my big heat jump run (from 7 to 19), and I was surprised how the additional attempts in between had prepared me for the faster foes.
rancid shore
unlocking everything isn't even great
rancid shore
you'd need to straight max some things to make them viable
sacred idol
pog champion, deadly reversal
deft quiver
yea that is what i was thinking
sacred idol
@prime knoll can't do heat jumping at all lul
deft quiver
some aspects do not really interest me
chrome geyser
chiron and guan yu are the only two that are literally unplayable without maxing them out.
deft quiver
I mean less than others
chrome geyser
Chiron, you can get away with lvl 3
Well it's you who is playing; most importantly have fun!
prime knoll
I didn't think I could. I just did it with the mindset as Zag says "What could go wrong?" Then I was standing there picking up titan blood from the last boss (65 minutes later, but still).
chrome geyser
But trying out aspects; you can find them more entertaining than you thought
And preferences change over time too
sacred idol
someone did level 1 GY lmao
deft quiver
yea thats true
sacred idol
nutjob
chrome geyser
madman
rancid shore
Fwiw, Felis, I don't jump heat at all. I've climbed every single bit
sacred idol
That doesn't work for everyone, Kopek
rancid shore
It's easier to learn that way imo
sacred idol
I'm simply not that good.
chrome geyser
i feel like i could on a no-heat run.
TBH if i get a special focused GY build; i really don't get hit
sacred idol
I have fantastic boons and I'm on almost no 'enemy buffing heats' (only EM and a blue shield), and I'm still down to 26 health on Extreme Hydra
chrome geyser
until the final boss
sacred idol
I keep getting smacked by the head
chrome geyser
since i'm sniping everything
prime knoll
No, I'm not recommending it. I just wanted to illustrate how several pacts can be scary the first time, but eventually you'll find that you're prepared for them, even if you didn't expect to be.
sacred idol
Not everyone will is the point.
chrome geyser
Hydra EX is annoying; there is so little room and so many obstacles
sacred idol
Statements like that ignore the differences in ability between people.
chrome geyser
I'm with @prime knoll ; i was so intimidated by the heat that i was legit scared to play to farm titan blood for a while.
But if you just jump into it; you will find that things are not as impossible as you thought
sacred idol
If it works for you, great. Your specific physical abilities are better suited for the game.
chrome geyser
worse case you die
sacred idol
It's not a psychology thing.
I know my limits.
I've done every heat once, after all.
chrome geyser
that's good. Yeah; you don't need to have heat to enjoy the game.
For some it makes it more entertaining.
For some it does not
sacred idol
I like some heat, but I take it slowly.
chrome geyser
Also; @deft quiver , if you are on controller/MK and have access to the other; using one over the other changes gameplay a lot too
sacred idol
If I can't handle it, I will turn on God Mode to get to the end.
chrome geyser
So just try what you enjoy.
sacred idol
I mean, yes, that was the point, I do that
chrome geyser
I can say my fav weapons are zeus shield, eris rail and chiron bow
prime knoll
GY, Hera bow, and any rail
rancid shore
ooh that's fun
prime knoll
noice
sacred idol
In this case, I would have enjoyed Delta to make my Zeus dashing smoother
But as it is...
Crit clusters for everyone.
When you oneshot the elite longspear just right... 👌
prime knoll
haha, instantly removing Elysium foes is really satisfying
sacred idol
and jolted get, and the butterfly ball deleted
now this is a spicy build
still no bloody lightning rod tho
prime knoll
maybe in Styx 🤞🏽
sacred idol
rofl I think I just killed Theseus under a minute
one of those quintuple cluster stacks just... rekt him all the way down to his chariot breaking in one shot
Aw, no Zeus rooms
so no legendary or lightning rods, no artemis either
just demeter
Still, this is an accidentally amazing build.
Not the fastest I've killed Hades but the safest.
Yeet
nova spade
Nice. What was the Deflect boon? Dash?
rapid holly
i really dislike how charging affects distance thrown. Like charged skewer for the spear. it feels like a movement loss since you have to charge to hit at mid range
stoic crest
hey guys, quick question, what's the range on a crit "marking" other foes?
naive tusk
Athena’s exposing dash FTW
stoic crest
cause I swear I'm seeing enemies getting marked a full screen away from the enemy I attacked
naive tusk
And I share the sentiment, Shadow Star. That’s why I prefer to pick other upgrades than the charging ones 
@stoic crest the wiki says the range is 1200. Not sure what it means but it seems massive 😆
stoic crest
yeah 1200 is huge
I figured it'd be enemies very very close
that makes marking a lot different 😄
naive tusk
Considering how situational it is, the range sure helps a lot
stoic crest
also seems to have really short duration
naive tusk
The mark disappears once you crit the foe
sacred idol
@nova spade It was expose dash. Perfect synergy with dash shot chaos buff and zeus shot, and cluster in melee range.
stoic crest
question
when you have unhealthy fixation and it triggers
does it also automatically trigger the 50% damage boost from two curses?
I mean, they're weak AND charmed
naive tusk
I don’t think so
stoic crest
yeah it doesn't
too bad
on one hand it should, on the other.... that'd be very strong 😅
naive tusk
It’d mean Aphrodite needs no soulmate for Privileged Status and that’s not love-like 
sacred idol
It would be... not that insane
If you're lacking priv at that stage, you either don't need it or need a lot more to help you.
stoic crest
I still struggle having successful runs with the blade 😦
as much fun as I have with it
I'll stick to spear and railgun
what kinda builds do people generally go with spear btw?
for rail I personally love poison builds
naive tusk
I can’t help with that. I’ve only been playing with Guan Yu when it comes to the spear and, even so, I just roll with whatever gods I find since I always start with the Hypnos’ purse 👛
Speaking from Guan Yu’s perspectives, Athena’s strike is very defensive vs projectiles if you want to play it safe. Aphrodite’s strike gives weak for PS and a good chunk of % damage, Dionysus & Demeter stack fast on the strike
The special should preferably be a status curse that goes well with your strike for the PS since your main source of damage is the spin attack
sacred idol
I enjoy spear throw a lot.
naive tusk
Cast and dash are up to you but Athena’s dash is 💗
What would you recommend for a spear throw build? @sacred idol
I want a change of pace from GY 😋
sacred idol
Guan or Guan't?
I mean, GY can do it
Charged skewer, frankly
It's nuts on either GY or Zag
naive tusk
Ew, no. I hate to charge
sacred idol
Paired with explosive on zag
naive tusk
I haaate being still and defenseless
sacred idol
Well, it's worth it just for throw... but if you hate it, I guess chain spear if it rolls
Otherwise get spin hammers and just use them to heal.
naive tusk
Ok, chain spear for hammer 👍🏼
sacred idol
I prefer Aphro or Artemis throws.
lost cape
Hi I have a question I found a bug during my last gameplay where do I report it?
naive tusk
Press F10 @lost cape
sacred idol
If not, quick massive for healing and the base spear rocks already
But yeah. Art or Aphro for spear throw.
lost cape
@naive tusk thanks
sacred idol
I think Poseidon has crazy high damage if you want, unsure if his throw knocks back well though
Second highest raw scaling
Aphro art heart rend spear though.
Nasty business.
Aphro attack
Or dash
chrome geyser
GY cannot get chain
chrome geyser
it's like it has built in explosive launcher
sacred idol
And it kills before you die unless it's like... Overtime 2.
chrome geyser
With GY; i only do charges if I can kite an enemy behing an obstacle for HP. Even with the fast spin charge boon; it's too slow to use in battle regularly.
Achilles.
Zipppity zop man
sacred idol
That is fun too
chrome geyser
In general; i don't find spins useful.
sacred idol
Spin is super useful with quick, and borderline useless without, I feel like
chrome geyser
With achilles; you can go cast. It will give you +150% on your next 2 casts
naive tusk
Oh, tell me about it. I hide everytime with GY. Thank Aphrodite the spin attacks go beyond obstacles
sacred idol
Oh right, if you use regular Zag spear throw...
I think you can go Doom
And use something else for Merciful End
stoic crest
how do you unlock guan yu again?
sacred idol
Athena dash, ares special
Whatever you like for privileged
Hermes for special speed
Staccs
@stoic crest unlock many aspects
Like I opened it up with 4 normal ones locked
naive tusk
I think after unlocking 3 aspects
sacred idol
Probably less than I used I guess
chrome geyser
You need to unlock the three aspects; then exhaust some of achilles' conversation options.
stoic crest
oh nvm I'm just dumb
chrome geyser
Just keep talking to him after your runs. He will give you the code word after a while.
chrome geyser
Oh lol
naive tusk
Why is Ares’ special good on Zag spear?
sacred idol
Lmao
Because you really really really don't want to charge it.
And you can get chain spear.
So you can just spam the entire room with doom.
Doom works best on single hits
naive tusk
Yay
chrome geyser
Cause it is like a +50 flat damage boost
sacred idol
So... well, how do you single hit everyone at once? Chainthrow zagreus.
naive tusk
Oooh Zag aspect also boosts doom damage on special?!
chrome geyser
i should try it sometimes
sacred idol
Everything else is flexible, but Impending and Merciful is just sick
naive tusk
Also hangover ticks?
sacred idol
I don't know if it buffs damage.
chrome geyser
i don't think so
sacred idol
It does buff SPEED
And speed is what you need
Merciful will be detonating, after all
So more yeeting, more defeating
Hermes is a bro
naive tusk
Hermes is life
sacred idol
Remember you can cancel a throw by attacking - saves the recall time if you need to evade
naive tusk
Oh man, I’m hyped to try this stuff
sacred idol
It will at least be fun.
naive tusk
I will miss the 🎇 though
sacred idol
Firework throw can still do work with crit or aphro
You just need a good Chaos roll to make up for not having charged skewer
naive tusk
Nono, I’m supposed to give other aspects a chance 😋
sacred idol
Achilles seems fun
naive tusk
Oh Chaos, someday you will offer me your legendary again~
atomic panther
It's very fun, but I prefer the ease of Poseidon Aspect
naive tusk
I’m married to Poseidon Aspect
sacred idol
I just had my best and most favorite run on Eris.
The sound of a quintuple cluster bomb crit is beautiful.
Unless you are Theseus and underneath the bombs.
stoic crest
ooooh
so if you're playing with more heat than you can get rewards for
then you just get the reward from the lowest amount of heat you're yet to get your rewards for
I tried going for a 5 heat run just to try infernal gates
and figured I'd have to go for runs of 3-4 heat just to get those rewards
no
I can keep up at 5 and just fight through that
chrome geyser
Eyyy another one for the eris gang. Eris is pretty good.
rapid holly
Im finding as I play more and get hit less I enjoy dyo dash over Athena. Its just an easy way to stack poison quickly
unborn pasture
I just finished a run with a heroic Greatest Reflex from Hermes, Poseidon's dash, and almost every one of his boons that upgraded it, Razor Shoals, Breaking Wave, Wave Pounding, and Second Wave. Pretty damn fun.
unkempt pagoda
my new favorite chaos cheese is taking [hidden room rewards] right before the boss
you always go through the countdown before you get to the next biome
west siren
I thought Eris and the rail was my favourite combo but then I had the extremely satisfying experience of loading 7 bloodstones into the Hera bow with support fire and crit from Artemis. Insane.
naive tusk
1st time I managed to get all the Blade Rift fam together (shame the cast itself was common rarity)
west siren
Wicked.
waxen furnace
@unkempt pagoda given your nickname, what are your favourite guan yu builds/pairings?
unkempt pagoda
recently, artemis charged skewer
waxen furnace
oh interesting
unkempt pagoda
other builds include quick spin + any +% dmg god besides poseidon
waxen furnace
do you generally lean into skewer or attack, or does it just depend on what you get?
unkempt pagoda
because poseidon knocks enemies out of the spin's range
i generally play by building off of what i get anyhow
unkempt pagoda
artemis charged skewer was a recent idea for me, worked out really well with 1000+ damage throws
soft harbor
its still a good weapon without S P I N F A S T, but getting that hammer early is prtty nice
waxen furnace
yeah, got excited early on thinking that poseidon/zeus could just get 2 curses up with the spin buildup, before remembering about the knockback lol
unkempt pagoda
i particularly like athena or demeter on a spin build
waxen furnace
yeah, been enjoying both
wonder if artemis attack + aphro special would be any good
was mentioned earlier
unkempt pagoda
serrated edge is ok, but it's really dangerous with both hp loss and less dash length, so i tend not to go for it
haven't tried flurry jab but it probably works just as well as with regular spear (meaning, pretty good)
waxen furnace
do you value quick spin over big spin?
unkempt pagoda
always, no matter which spear
waxen furnace
makes sense. just being sure
unkempt pagoda
a bigger hitbox doesn't help if you get knocked out of the animation anyways
waxen furnace
yepyep
soft harbor
does Flurry show up if you're holding Guan Yu
if it has, I've likely never wanted to take it and lose the spin
unkempt pagoda
actually, that's a good question
soft harbor
i don't know one way or the other
unkempt pagoda
i wouldn't be surprised if the devs thought ahead and took out of guan yu's pool
soft harbor
but i know i'd be too afraid to take it
waxen furnace
athena attack + ares special might be fun. silly, but fun
soft harbor
I think you can still get DeltaChamber with the reloader aspect rail, which negates that aspect too
probably little things that should be removed from pools
unkempt pagoda
you can still manually reload with delta chamber
waxen furnace
I took delta chamber with hestia aspect and didn't mind
unkempt pagoda
it doesn't completely negate hestia, but it doesn't really help either
soft harbor
oh you can? even with the little infinity symbol there?
waxen furnace
to be fair, nothing really synergizes too well with hestia, I don't think
things like the 5 hit spread fire still shoot out a singular hestia bullet beforehand
soft harbor
yeah, i just hope for Rockets or something when i get a hammer with that aspect
my current 🍆 build is uhh
Zagreus Rail and all of the Zeus things on Attack
and then anything that makes you shoot more and faster
even if it isn't the strongest, it is satisfying
waxen furnace
yeah I enjoy that too, but on hestia. as its all I have leveled presently
turbid needle
im confused what happens with gold collect after you die
naive tusk
You lose all gold after every run
mild crag
charon takes it back 
naive tusk
So spend all you can before you die 😄
unkempt pagoda
you can buy something at the contractor that lets you switch keepsakes between biomes
waxen furnace
well that's a whole lot of orange and red
naive tusk
Ares Call was doing more than 100 damage per tick and with Pressure Points WHEW
waxen furnace
today is the day I have discovered that I have severely underrated Hunter's Mark. got it in an artemis special guan yu build and it's been a blast
naive tusk
It has a nice crosshair!
digital axle
wait, are blade rifts good?
I was told not to bother with those
I know athena reflects are busted.
turbid needle
Hunting Blades is the second best set-up in the game.
digital axle
Crit rifts?
turbid needle
Not even crit, just them.
digital axle
I dont know what that is
yep artemis duo.
I did a charm longing setup, that worked out.
with athena reflect dash
turbid needle
That's good, too.
digital axle
I need to learn the ins and outs eventually
Im doing +1 now, only cleared it once
charm longing completely shut it out
waxen furnace
ahhhh. just got charged skewer + artemis special on guan yu. This is funnn
what's the best set-up in the game then, Schpoon?
turbid needle
Full Artemis Cast build.
mild crag
When people have cleared the game in less than 6 minutes with it you know its probably ok
naive tusk
I have read people complaining about it so I think so
Them selling a boon and seeing it offered again
waxen furnace
I sold a not too useful to me at the moment duo boon early in a run as 400 gold was a lot, and have yet to see it again despite getting about 5 possible boons to find it in. sad
naive tusk
That’s sad
waxen furnace
aaand there we go. found it in a styx room finally!
deadly reversal wasn't so useful when I had barely any deflect effects, but now that I have a bunch, I wanted it back haha
hollow sorrel
We need to be able to be offered boons we've already sold, because the game sometimes forces us the sell boons that we didn't want to be sold, and want back
waxen furnace
when does the game force a sell?
there's the pact of punishment boon loss, but they could choose to just handle that differently from selling
hollow sorrel
it's literally a forced selling
And it's not attempting to be random. It's maliciously weighting things that are more important, to make the punishment more awful
waxen furnace
oh, do you get money for it?
hollow sorrel
yes
waxen furnace
was not aware. thought it was just a loss
have yet to play with that on. I'm only on 6-9 heat runs still
hollow sorrel
the purging pool in between levels, requires a forced sell, or you can't go through the door
waxen furnace
I usually run extreme measures and some -healing/+enemies. they seem the easiest to me so far
ahhh so that's how they implemented it. got it
turbid needle
was the hades fight easy for you guys
I just beat first try
it seemed quite easy
waxen furnace
first time? was quite difficult the first few times for me
it's so highly build dependent though
soft harbor
it took me a couple tries, but now he's comparatively easier than EM versions of the other bosses
waxen furnace
once I switched to controller, I won the first time I tried
soft harbor
understanding his spin and that lasers are just... dumb... makes the fight fairly free
sometimes he'll play some really ugly patterns when you don't have high damage output though
Skull. Skull. Skull,skull,stab.
nimble cypress
So apparently cold fusion is actually busted as heck
waxen furnace
is it? it's the only duo I have yet to get
soft harbor
which one is that
nimble cypress
Zeus and demeter
soft harbor
ye, but what's it do again?
nimble cypress
Your jolted effect lasts for ten seconds instead of expiring on attack
At least I assume that it's cold fusion that was absolutely busted because before I picked it up the run was absolutely painful
And then after I picked it up I was like huh what happened
Why is Theseus dead already I haven't even been attacking him
And then later I was like come on old man let's go for round 3
Because I didn't even have to use deaths defiance on him
Like I seriously don't understand why my damage suddenly exploded when I picked it up
waxen furnace
what are y'alls easiest pact of punishment picks?
earnest ravine
Fun fact though, every one of tHesus' god attacks count for Jolted
It's funny as heck
waxen furnace
I've been running extreme measures x1-x3 and jury summons + lasting consequences as I ramp up. wondering if I'm missing some easy ones/ones I should get used to sooner
middle management has almost derailed some of my runs
and damage control (glass heart) has been a problem (it seems fine with rail, but I tend to run hestia)
maybe I'll try tight deadline to get used to the time limit
soft harbor
Extreme Measures is a fairly fun way to jump heat up
oblique tusk
middle management is infuriating for asphodel
oblique tusk
the gorgon and cyclops heads are genuinely unfair
the hitbox on the shockwave is ridiculous
like twice what it looks like
and otherwise it's just aggravating
soft harbor
and if you're just a solid player, EM and No Choice is like 10 heat and you just have to play pretty good
turbid needle
Do you mean Tight Deadline?
soft harbor
you have to struggle with RNG, but nothing should like kill you
I don't like Tight Deadline at all
or the Mirror one
I don't love no choice, but it's a really easy way to boost the heat gauge early on
later on you kinda actually need good boons though
halcyon cedar
spear daedalus update, special become explosive throw-able or bounce up to 3-4 foe? which one more fun
waxen furnace
"easy" 10 heat? no choice seems to be pretty aggressive when you take it twice...
halcyon cedar
that one i save money for buy 1 trash boon for wash it away lol
waxen furnace
One, I can sorta get. but two?
I guess it removes all semblance of decision making in builds, which might be freeing
soft harbor
nothing really hurts you except maybe Theseus' cart
and it's like
there's a relief to just picking up whatever is there and rolling with it
just DONT look at the two that are marked off
waxen furnace
hahaha I see where you're coming from
soft harbor
then you'll really hate No Choice
waxen furnace
oh no. oh no you can still see the other two options?!
soft harbor
just CLICK whats there