That can work if you get all the Zeus boons to buff the lightning attacks, it can melt stuff, just takes more boons than the three I listed above
#h1-builds-and-combat
digital vessel
Like even without that full combo Demeter special works out of the tin
Usually rail is the only one where I always start with Zeus keepsake and fish for attack boon then upgrade lightning every way I can
white finch
I kinda wish the rail had more interesting aspects
so far i haven't even unlocked them because they don't sound particularly fun 🤔
digital vessel
I also find it fun if you get like extra special shots and then either one of the branching/bouncing attacks or preferably explosive shot so that your attack does a bit more aoe to balance you usually using the Chiron mark to turn special into single target
Hestia is fun but definitely weird to get used to, eris I feel is a straight upgrade to Zag rail and is the default rail in my mind, only rail I have maxed thus far
Eris is just a lot more flexible build wise than hestia since it buffs all damage, period
Eris buff with Zeus attack and pressure points and support fire from Artemis is hilariously fun
Also eris can rock any hammer
pallid dagger
I have 7 cast crystals, all artemis upgrades for cast, an epic hermes cast speed buff, and everything around me is dying with insane speed. asterius and theseus just went down in under 30 seconds.
white finch
kinda enjoy the extra ammo on Zag's
digital vessel
Niiice, Hera is a fun time no doubt
I don’t think about ammo cos I reload any time I’m dashing/moving or I just shoot special when I’m out and reloading
pallid dagger
oh, no, i'm working with a poseidon sword. lets me make the best use of that Exit Wounds.
pallid dagger
depends
i used to be all about the nemesis sword because it combined well with artemis
but artemis boons on the poseidon sword blow nemesis outta the water
the raw damage is astounding
fallow niche
@untold widget My 10:14 run was spontaneous
Hence why I forgot about hydra skip and everything else
digital vessel
I just feel like cast builds are much more limited than aspects that don’t pigeon hole you into mainly casting, but I do love when I get all the good Artemis and Hermes boons
digital vessel
Oh and Demeter with her chill on cast and the extra damage done/less damage taken when out of bloodstones
fallow niche
Generally speaking at the start of any run I choose what kind of build I'm going either by pre-selecting a trinket or by formulating one based on my first boon/hammer
Cast builds aren't any more restrictive than normal ones most of the time
pallid dagger
i don't think it's a bad thing that you generally have to lean towards either attacking or casting
i just think it's so much more fun to be able to use both
abstract pilot
the thing is that generally you get multiplicative bonuses on top of one thing, so it's usually just best to focus one thing
thorny tiger
when Hades first came out for early access, I ended up switching to God mode just so I could see the content because I find these kinds of games difficult. But, I just beat it for the first time on normal! Whew
abstract pilot
with like, a bit of splash to get privileged status sometimes
thorny tiger
After party did so much work
rotund wagon
who wants to see an absolute meme of a build
thorny tiger
meeeee
rotund wagon
rotund wagon
sadly no lmao
pallid dagger
true shot damage: 200 x +50% = 300
dual shot damage: 156
456 x 7 = 3192
exit wounds damage: 228 x 7 = 1596
so just hitting one enemy at a time with all seven crystals and then dislodging them factors to 4,788 damage
discounting the chance to critical which does 300% damage
rotund wagon
by the time I got the build fairly fleshed out I was in Elysium
fallow niche
@pallid dagger Sadly the most optimal way to play Hades is to fully build around one main DPS boon and that's it, maybe with your dash or whatever else you have left being an accessory
rotund wagon
now I am done with the bloody prophecy I can pursue heat level as much as I like
fallow niche
Usually to activate privileged status
rotund wagon
how do you even spell the wordf
digital vessel
I mean the thing is that cast builds specifically need a ton of Artemis and Hermes; other builds can have more flexibility to roll with the rng
chrome geyser
@@fallow niche I think depends on what we consider the default level heats are. If the attack build is generally slower than cast, then it gets to be worse due to heats. Like trying to do bastion all idols. The idol that turns foes invulnerable for a time makes the high speed-lew damage weapons useless for example. I like a game where the difficulty ramp does not render customizability moot.
digital vessel
Obviously you use keepsakes and try to direct it either way and have you focuses, but
fallow niche
Not sure what your point is here @chrome geyser
@digital vessel Aphrodite Demeter is one of the stronger cast builds in the game and doesn't need any Artemis or Hermes
Same with Festive Fog builds
abstract pilot
the demeter cast buff (free chill when you cast) just seems busted
fallow niche
Yup, its good, it also gives more damage @abstract pilot
Ez Priv status too
I wouldn't say its busted, but its definitely very strong
pallid dagger
not one life lost. first time i've ever had a spotless final boss
fallow niche
You mean DD lost?
pallid dagger
yeah
abstract pilot
it's probably the best "free" boon (that is, not taking up an attack/special/cast/dash/call slot) most of the time though
fallow niche
Yeah if you take no damage from Hades it will say "Perfect Clear"
fallow niche
@abstract pilot Most boons are "free" boons and there are a ton of really good ones. That's certainly debatable, and I would say it may not even be in the top 5
rotund wagon
god damn what is that cast build
chrome geyser
I havent risen up in heat, and am pretty slow in my runs. Is it usualy faster to go with cast builds or attack builds?
Let's say cast builds take 2 mins faster to clear a biome on average. That means cast becomes the best build; since increasing heat in the pact of punishment does not allow you to go slow.
I had this issue where playing with anything but the 4 weapons in bastion was unfun due to idols interacting badly with it. (One turned foes invulnerable with 30% probability per hit; so the weapon that attacks really fast just ends up turning foes invulnerable constantly and makes the game not fun.)
I rather when i git gud; to be able to use all the weapons/boons in different ways to be able to win in high difficulties.
rotund wagon
you planning to take over the witches?
fallow niche
Its Poseidon Sword Artemis build
Its good
@chrome geyser Its best to do what suits you most, I don't think either really matters?
What really matters is personal skill, not the meta
Also I was slow at my runs at first, but by slowly increasing the heat and pushing myself I eventually started going really fast
chrome geyser
That's what i think the early access is good for. Five days ago i was like "this is insane how do i beat hades even?" Now yesterday, i have a 3 win streak. Game seems more about skill than rng, which I really like. Even when half my boons are only for fate's list and don't do anything; i can beat Hades 50% of the time now.
fallow niche
Sick! That's good progress
chrome geyser
Have not finished heat 1 bounties yet, so still places to go. But I'm having so much fun in the moment.
thorny tiger
yeah I finally took off the training wheels myself. I figured this isn't the type of game I'm good at playing so just did it automatically on god mode first time. Decided to see how far I could get on normal, and was really pleased to find I actually started learning how to play
fallow niche
Really until you feel like the game is a breeze, you should either focus on mastering the weapon(s) that you enjoy or getting reps in with all of them. I did the latter, which is why I always choose the one with the Darkness buff since its fun to have some variation and I don't feel restricted by not being good enough with any of them.
thorny tiger
like, I'd actually start dodging things as opposed to the god mode where I just ran at things and hit em over and over
my play style really had to change
chrome geyser
Yeah, im trying to keep my weapons varied, to earn the most darkness. My worst is the sword and the shield though.
thorny tiger
what's also really cool is I'm definitely enjoying the game more now, even though runs take me a lot longer
fallow niche
As someone with problems with fine motor skills and has hand injuries I haven't ever fully recovered from, I can't really do pinpoint accurate dodges 😅
I mostly just evade enemies in the easiest way possible or run straight at them
Since hitting them pauses their attack anims
thorny tiger
yeah I'm getting better at timing my dodges, but I still just kinda go in random directions
chrome geyser
I really like the planck keyboard for this game, the 2u space bar makes it very easy to keep dashing. Zag should be labelled the god of dashes
thorny tiger
seriously
fallow niche
hermes extra dashes = 💦
abstract pilot
this game hurts my hands a lot, i can only really play one run a day
extra dashes = extra hurt, lol
thorny tiger
hopefully that's something they look into, making it more accessible
fallow niche
Try to not overdo yourself! You'll get injured like me, and let me tell you, its not fun
Try switching up your posture, should help too
chrome geyser
@abstract pilot i suggest the planck keyboard. A bit pricey but it has made my gaming and typing extremely comfortable.
abstract pilot
i'm trying to figure out a reasonable k&m binding, the default one is so bad for me
abstract pilot
space is way too far away from the other buttons for how often you have to press it
thorny tiger
k and m binding?
fallow niche
Yeah
abstract pilot
k&m = keyboard & mouse
thorny tiger
gotcha
chrome geyser
I use dvorak so had to change around too. Just play around for a good one.
fallow niche
I use my thumb on space, and my other fingers on WASD area, with my right hand on mouse
Its normal FPS spread
abstract pilot
maybe i should get a foot pedal and bind dash to that, ahahaha
fallow niche
Wew that would be funny
chrome geyser
That works for you. My current one is wasd cluster for movement, q for cast, e for call, the key under w for summon and space for dash
chrome geyser
Then again i have the spacebar right under my thumb thanks to ortholinear layout
abstract pilot
hmm, maybe i can just move wasd right by one (esdf)
thorny tiger
I like the feel of the spear, but I don't think I'm very good with it. The only time I ever used special for it was when I got a hammer which turned it into a straight distance shot
fallow niche
Which spear? @dusky steeple
dusky steeple
just trying out hades aspect
fallow niche
Generally my two builds for Zag spear are either Exploding Launcher or Flurry Jab. Achilles is very powerful but bizarre to use and I'm not certain what is most optimal on it. Maybe even a cast build?
rotund wagon
so Achilles aspect boils down to nyom-ing around the battlefield?
fallow niche
Sort of yeah
Your next two attacks or casts get 150% damage, which is an absurdly big number
rotund wagon
does the charge apply special boon?\
fallow niche
Special boon? You mean ability?
rotund wagon
yes idk how to describe it
basically when you rush to the spear you can damage enemies do you proc boons
fallow niche
Uh no
After a Raging Rush (I think its called) you get a buff for your next 2 attacks or casts that adds 150% damage
Your boons would proc off of whatever you set them to
lament coral
I wish Hermes was just extra dashes, attack/special/cast speed, and greater recall
fallow niche
Drop time is decent? So is drift dash sometimes
Tho those are the real juice since they can impact DPS
lament coral
I don't think I've ever picked up drop time
turbid needle
Drop tme is great for some cast builds
fallow niche
I don't think I have either, it never shows up when I do cast builds lmaoo
Because I can't ever expect to get it I don't ever build for it either
chrome geyser
When you charge spin you can release by dashing. Takes a while to get used to but is pretty usable. I like poseidon on spear due to the lack of knockback. And rupture is pretty good i think. Spins are good with ares since you can't proc it as often.
Athena dash is great too. Spear lacks defense.
turbid needle
You can't KB bosses tho right?
dim dragon
omg Festive Fog lob build, with Zeus Duo and Legendary, is beast oO
chrome geyser
No bosses don't get kb as much as enemies. But they get rupture which works well.
lament coral
I think I was moving Hades with my shotgun explosive rail and Poseidon attack
with Poseidon legendary
but again, no point
fallow niche
Poseidon is fairly awful versus bosses
turbid needle
Amazing for clearing tho
fallow niche
Yeah but so is any well made build
turbid needle
So they only have to tweek a little bit
lament coral
clearing Styx, you mean
fallow niche
Only thing of poseidons that really stands out is the dash
chrome geyser
Any thoughts on poseidon cost with Demeter duo? Been trying to get it but to no avail
dim dragon
guys, whould i focus my titan blood on one aspect to max it out, or unlock everything?
lament coral
I haven't tried it after the changes, but it was garbage before
straight up damage nerf
did nothing against enemies if you had Forced Overtime, too
chrome geyser
I unlocked different aspects first, and find it entertaining to swap things around. Im guessing if you wanna move to higher heat quicker, just focus on one aspect.
lament coral
kinda, yeah
dim dragon
im kinda unlocking everything
chrome geyser
:/ the +20% is telling me to use hera bow; i was hoping to go for that one. I guess I'll just try out dionysus; i hear his cast with hera is bonkers.
dim dragon
more blood gives just higher number, while the soul of the aspect is most important. (i think)
lament coral
there's a massive difference between losing 70% of your HP and healing and 50%
fallow niche
The demeter poseidon duo, the one time I tried it, was garbo
lament coral
if we're using Guan Yu as an example
dim rapids
is 1 ambrosia for 500 darkness worth?
steel bison
Poseidon special on guan yu spear kinda od. toss out charge attack into special to knock them into it
untold widget
@dim rapids depends, how full is your mirror?
untold widget
yeah, i'd say its worth
@gloomy vine so it looks like the quickest run that wasnt routed at all is 10:14 so far
rotund wagon
ARE YOU KIDDING ME ON
is no option punishment pact literally means "you cannot choose that option"
pallid dagger
Yeah that one is annoying
rotund wagon
I went to Dionysus 4-5 times now
untold widget
what did you think it meant?
rotund wagon
I thought it meant "you now have limited option of how screwed you are"
untold widget
explain?
rotund wagon
I went to Dionysus 4-5 times now
I just want the drunk on special slot
the first few times I was thinking huh thats weird
probably just bad rng
rotund wagon
but no, it literally just stick to that option
gg my run is now busted
THE GAME KNOWS
I CANNOT CHOOSE ANYTHING FOR MY SPECIAL SLOT
ITS ZEUS SHIELD
ok now the 6th encounter with Dionysus
FINALLY
THANK YOU GAME VERY COOL
turbid needle
We all want No Choice to change.
Going through Feedback, and I see @eternal stag mention no tell on Satyrs. They do have a tell, it's them rearing back ever so slightly while holding both their hands up. I'm kiiinda being a nitpicky jerk right now because I totally think they need a more obvious tell, but hopefully this helps you.
eternal stag
i was already informed, but thanks
turbid needle
Aaand I should have read the rest of it.
eternal stag
we had quite an argument in this channel
okay tbf though, if a tree drops in the forest with a one second tell, does it really have a tell
turbid needle
I'm with you there.
dim dragon
omg i thought i was bad and couldn't figure out the satyr's tell
eternal stag
now i'm being a little stubborn, hahah, but i would like them to be more obvious
dim dragon
(am still bad btw) 😄
eternal stag
nah you and me both gliver
turbid needle
We got rid of Alecto's 600% damage/one frame of start-up attack at 50% speed, and replaced it with Satyrs.
turbid needle
Going into Styx?
rotund wagon
yrp
yep
bloody shields
I dont know why, probably because I have no ranged option this time so I had to close in to mess the Elysium shields up
and maybe because of all the effects I cant tell when the shields are gonna attack
turbid needle
You have Athena on this run?
turbid needle
Skelly.
rotund wagon
aight
I swear I will do this and never touch no option again
no option is worth 2 heat per level at least
one more thing, will Dusa come out to fight Hades if I call her
dim dragon
i think dusa, thanatos and meg wont work against hades
dim rapids
dusa can't fight hades
rotund wagon
yep expected
dim rapids
only summons that can be used in hades are bouldy/sisyphus and skelly
turbid needle
True
Sys and Skelly companion can help you
I'm hella late to the party LOL don't mind me
tiny portal
Hrmm, re: Satyr Tell. They have an audible tell as well (sounds like they are getting ready to spit). Personally their tell doesn't seem any more or less reactable than a lot of others. Like the brightswords or greatshields in Elysium.
turbid needle
At least you know that Brightswords and Greatshields will attack very quickly if you approach them.
The audio cue was also acknowledged in the post in question, and the fact that it's rather quiet and can easily get lost in the mix was mentioned.
tiny portal
I guess that has to do with speaker setup. Ive never had an issue catching it
I mean, I don't really have a dog in that race. Making them easier to deal with wouldnt bother me heh
thorny edge
http://prntscr.com/qxm3nz sometimes the game gives very difficult choices
turbid needle
It could be worse. Could be Eurydice versus the Trial.
native ether
easy, always eurydice
no duos in a trial, and no damage in eurydice's house of desserts
turbid needle
I'm not always looking for a Duo.
native ether
fair enough, unless im really behind in asphodel im typically looking for one
that or a 2nd status effect
lament coral
you can't get duos from a trial?
turbid needle
Not from the two Gods in question, at least.
It's been a minute since I've seen a Duo in a trial, but I think it's still a thing.
lament coral
good to know
thorny edge
http://prntscr.com/qxmbhl is there suppoosed to be a red shade in the miniboss room?
turbid needle
I wish it were easier to guarantee Super Nova and Double Nova, but I think Double Nova is in a good spot now.
native ether
@fallow niche Side note, I don't actually expect World Splitter to change my dash because of how the dash attack on the sword works, but I'll give you the rest definitely. It would be nice if it did though, like if World Splitter made your dash a fast chop instead of the thrust attack.
I do expect Cruel Thrust to work on it and I'm always sad to remember it doesn't.
fallow niche
Oof yeah
turbid needle
Well that would be SUPER busted.
native ether
Sword got the treatment I'm always worried the rail will eventually get because people are saying its good :p
fallow niche
Rail has been claimed to be good for a long time now
turbid needle
Shield's made it this long.
fallow niche
And now with long winter update most people say GY is too good
native ether
Ever since the Superstar Update yeah.
fallow niche
And yeah shield got away with a minor nerf
native ether
It was funny, Rail for the longest time was considered the worst weapon
fallow niche
I think SG ain't nerfing things into the dirt anymore
Sword got smacked too hard and now its time to right that wrong
turbid needle
We knew better, Pear.
solid cairn
Rip Chiron btw
turbid needle
We knew better.
native ether
"i went uh no it isnt" then cleared the game on 120 heat with it and everyone went "the heck"
We did indeed :p
turbid needle
Chiron is probably fine.
native ether
Chiron is underwhelming at its early levels, its fine at higher levers though
fallow niche
Chiron is good atm
glossy plaza
I can beat the game on 28 heat with normal spear but GY doesn't have the one hammer upgrade that make spear busted
native ether
Its honestly not Guan Yu
turbid needle
Quick Spin?
glossy plaza
multi-skewer is the most busted thing I can find on spear, Serrated Edge doesn't help you if you can't react
solid cairn
Quick spin
fallow niche
GY is better than normal spear on 32 heat if you're worried about dying
solid cairn
Quick spin makes guan yu S+
fallow niche
Yeah it does
Well
Just S
Chaos shield is still secretly very, very good for 32 heat
turbid needle
Not secretly.
fallow niche
"secretly"
fallow niche
glossy plaza
I still don't get Chaos Shield meta tbh, I prefer Zeus
native ether
though Guan Yu combined with Serrated Edge makes for a particularly nasty combo. You take the most damaging attack in the game, combine it with the widest area dash attack in the game, and then make it hit 3 times. You'll one shot enemies through Tartarus without attack boons
turbid needle
Uh, what's the Spear's Dash attack base damage?
digital vessel
Dio special on chaos shield and you can max stack poison on a room pretty easily, as an example
native ether
the base is modified by Guan Yu's general increase in base damage
glossy plaza
then get stuck in place for 0.3s of the attack animation in Elysium and insta die to almost everything
native ether
I believe spear dash is equivalent to the 2nd hit combo? Would need to verify
turbid needle
Serrated Edge is a B tier Hammer.
native ether
Serrated Edge is a great damage increase, but you gotta be able to deal with the penalty
turbid needle
The range isn't the problem, it's the sticking.
fallow niche
Explosive Launcher, Flurry Jab, and both spin upgrades for GY are A to S tier
solid cairn
I need to make a tiermaker template for every hammer boon in the game
glossy plaza
you have to be careful of WHEN you press that left click
solid cairn
Like I did the aspects
turbid needle
Cinder, send me that Aspects link?
native ether
Yeah but those are good on anything. Serrated Edge I like how it is, if it was any better, it would run the risk of being too good.
solid cairn
I’m lazy so I need all the images to be on the wiki
glossy plaza
you have long i-frames on normal dashes, yes but as soon as you press the LMB, you lose all of it
fallow niche
Hammers are more or less powerful depending on the aspect Cinder
Wouldn't be an accurate list unless we presume the best possible aspect for each I guess
native ether
Those Hammers are the best on the Spear in general, I think any aspect works with those fine, except Achilles and Explosive Launcher
turbid needle
(in due time)
native ether
Hazard Bomb 
native ether
at least we agree on that one. Hazard Bomb is awful
fallow niche
dumpster tier
turbid needle
I should try Hazard on Hestia again.
solid cairn
I have to find it
native ether
at least its damage is nice but boy oh boy do I never want to run it
solid cairn
I’m kind of walking rn
fallow niche
its legit the least useful
turbid needle
No biggie, thanks.
native ether
Oh I can see it being super useful, just not with the Eris aspect
Which I would consider the stronger aspect.
fallow niche
it doesn't even do anything for hestia
and zag is just a worse version of the other two rails
solid cairn
Also discord mobile has awful message search features
native ether
eh nah, still prefer triple bomb over cluster bomb, but its due to specifically how I play the Rail
native ether
Cluster with Rockets is great for sure
fallow niche
Not sure if you can get both
lament coral
I wish Serrated Edge reduced attack speed instead
native ether
you can ive seen it :p
solid cairn
On discord mobile when you jump back in chat you only get a few other messages from that time
You can’t scroll
lament coral
you wanna dash attack? Ok, no more attack for you
fallow niche
Wew that sounds silly 002
native ether
You can also afaik get Cluster Bomb with Triple Bomb, which is very silly. Though I don't recommend it cause the sheer amount of particles is likely a debuff to your eyes and brain
fallow niche
Dude I already love going blind when I do spread fire + explosive shot
digital vessel
Cluster and triple is amazingly silly
native ether
yeah but that's only blind in front of you
fallow niche
Aight time to grind rail runs to get that wombo
digital vessel
God forbid you get Poseidon special with those
native ether
Cluster Triple is "you can no longer see anything"
fallow niche
GOOD
lament coral
add Zeus on top of spread fire and explosive
solid cairn
@turbid needle https://tiermaker.com/create/hades-weapons-and-aspects-82372
lament coral
with Zeus legendary
native ether
Hazard can make for some interesting builds, but im not sure if its really worth using
could be great with Inescapable Blast though
digital vessel
Does that one guaranteed do self damage?
glossy plaza
call me crazy but I still would say the best Spear is the Zag spear
digital vessel
I’ve avoided it thus far
fallow niche
https://i.imgur.com/dLKhWYk.png @solid cairn not even hard
native ether
if you hit yourself with it and dont use your dash to dodge the hit
native ether
Hestia is in the wrong spot 
fallow niche
Hestia is S tier and people don't give it the respect it needs
glossy plaza
GY is balanced due to its slow attack animation
fallow niche
Some of the most impressive runs I have seen for Hades have been done with that weapon
solid cairn
I feel like it and Eris are interchangeable
native ether
Hestia is great but unless you get specific combos, Eris out damages it over time because everything works for Eris. Hestia isn't bad though. Feel like either both are S tier or Hestia is A tier
lament coral
why are you using GY's attack?
fallow niche
Not really, Eris relies on special and special is slow
native ether
Eris, rely on special?
lament coral
what are you, a glutton for punishment?
native ether
nah fam I rely on Wrath
fallow niche
It also prioritizes up close gameplay which is worse for 32 heat
glossy plaza
you can bypass it with dash but then you run into the trap of serrated edge
and get stuck on the dash attack just to do damage
without access to multi skewer, GY special is underwhelming
solid cairn
What does guan yu special do with explosive launcher
lament coral
and 300% Aphrodite with Pressure Points?
fallow niche
You can't get it iirc @solid cairn
lament coral
it shrekts, my dude
glossy plaza
I did, still meh
solid cairn
Smh lame
fallow niche
Discord is not the most accurate 
solid cairn
I want firework explosions
glossy plaza
not enough my dude, not enough for 32 heat anyways
native ether
eris doesn't rely on special. Throw Poison on your attack, go for Low Tolerance, grab an Aphro or Zeus Wrath. You're golden. Pretty sure it also applies to the summon damage as well. I basically use my special exclusively for debuff spreading and proc'ing Eris buffs. I don't rely on it for my damage.
lament coral
it's good enough on 21 heat
fallow niche
eris is literally a worse zag rail unless you wait for the special to buff its damage
glossy plaza
you have to really optimize your damage and not rely too heavily on just special to do 32 heat
lament coral
good thing GY has a spin that does massive damage
glossy plaza
if you find the time to wind up the spin in Hydra fight then yea, but it's a bit too slow for my taste
I'd say the biggest strength of GY is the spin
native ether
Nah, throw your special near an enemy where you want to be in 2 seconds, move to it, the enemy will likely be in it too if it follows you, or if you place it near an enemy, you'll hit it and yourself. Rinse and repeat. Place your special where you want to be moving towards constantly. Strafe fire to stack poison on enemies while you do it, Explosive and Spread Fire helps for quicker spreading, lets you proliferate buffs faster and build aid faster, once you build aid charges, you can nuke the room, or if its a boss, nuke a boss phase.
lament coral
it is, but that doesn't mean you get to scoff at its special just because it doesn't do everything
it's a built-in explosive spear, with penetration and lower damage
glossy plaza
again, I feel it is underwhelming for the amount of animation it takes
it definitely feels slower than normal spear
by a fraction
on the wind-up
native ether
Can see an alternative build for eris focusing on Rockets and Cluster Bomb. Same strategy, just play more around walls so its easy to rocket bomb yourself, and then the increased damage takes care of everything, you can play from a further distance, still play around aid, attack poison, etc
lament coral
by "normal" I assume you mean Zag?
glossy plaza
and again it lacks multi-skewer
the power of multi is just that you don't even need to aim to guaranteed damage even on bosses
solid cairn
Can someone do 16 heat no spin guan yu
native ether
i used the special the least in my Guan Yu runs because the special definitely feels like the weakest part of the enhanced kit, unmodified
lament coral
I haven't played with Achilles/Hades in so long, I don't know what normal is anymore
glossy plaza
especially Theseus
lament coral
@solid cairn easily
solid cairn
25
glossy plaza
idk I haven't played Hades either
native ether
throw an explosive and charged skewer on it and its great, but by itself, kinda meh
lament coral
I'd need to get special charge in Tartarus for 25
solid cairn
Hades aspect is entirely outclassed by guan yu now
lament coral
and epic Aphro special
glossy plaza
basically
solid cairn
I wish Hades aspect gave you a move that he has in the final boss
glossy plaza
if Hades allows a much better control of the spin
solid cairn
What if you could shoot skulls or something
glossy plaza
then it might be able to barely compete
solid cairn
Have special be replaced with homing skulls
stone birch
make your default cast into hades cast
solid cairn
And somehow make them synergize with hammers
stone birch
homing skulls that explode
solid cairn
It’s the only thing that regens hp lul
thorny edge
GY spin regens 1 hp per damage tick
solid cairn
Ok so we can remove vicious skewer because how is that gonna work with the skulls
glossy plaza
make sense
solid cairn
Multi skewer can stay it’ll add extra pierce to the skulls
Charged would just make them do extra damage
And be charged
thorny edge
it'd be cool if hades spear gave you that big combo hadess does
solid cairn
And skulls would give a damage bonus to enemies it hits like punishing spin
I think that would be really cool
And would be as unique as the other third aspects
If they’re a real madlad they could give it a laser
@thorny edge
Just change the moveset entirely
Lmao
Reasonable change I know
solid cairn
The charge attack would do that yeah
oblique tusk
give nem aspect sword a dif moveset t b h
solid cairn
Make nemesis start with world splitter
oblique tusk
pls
solid cairn
Problem solved
solid cairn
Give nemesis like a really heavy strong moveset
oblique tusk
and only capable of using thrust attacks
solid cairn
Actually save that for weapon 6 which is definitely gonna be a big slow melee don’t @ me
glossy plaza
@solid cairn
solid cairn
It makes sense
oblique tusk
make weapon 6 just zag throwing daedalus hammers at people
solid cairn
Then there would be 2 pure melee (sword + ???), 2 hybrid (spear + shield) and 2 pure ranged (bow + rail)
Make it a scythe weapon and you have 2 aspects free
Demeter and Thanatos EZ picks
Because scythes and farming
And Demeter is about harvesting and all that
glossy plaza
I think pure melee is definitely gonna be hard to make
the reason why sword is strong is just Poseidon
it enables more damage
for a weapon that has a small effective range, it needs to do big deeps to be considered good
solid cairn
Exactly
So make it do a lot of damage
Like a really really high amount
It would have higher range than sword
On account of it being a massive scythe
I already thought of an idea for Thanatos
Some sort of kill streak thing
glossy plaza
isn't that just idk, useless for boss fights?
solid cairn
Good point lol
glossy plaza
I mean I don't mind it being semi-useless for boss fights, nearly all splash on kill boons are like that
but for a core concept, it might be pushing it
solid cairn
Ok new idea for Thanatos aspect
glossy plaza
sometimes they aren't, if they splash big and do enough damage, it is useful
glossy plaza
just make it a mini "Winter's Harvest"
and execute everything below a threshold
EZ
abstract pilot
your attack is a giant really delayed circle that kills everything
abstract pilot
+1% damage per stack, gain a stack whenever your attack hits an enemy; if you miss an enemy, lose all stacks
lament coral
sounds really exciting, especially against the exalted who can dash
thorny edge
add support fire
arrow hits wall, lose all stacks
glossy plaza
+0.5% damage per stacks, gain stack on kills (not spawns from pile of skulls) but loses stack overtime
lament coral
I'm glad the new weapon is gonna be ranged
hopefully, they delete the sword while they're at it
and replace spear's Achilles with Poseidon
or rather, the effect
turbid needle
You guys ever just pursefully die cuz the starting boons were trash?
lament coral
only when I was doing 32 heat
odd quarry
And if I get far even with ‘trash boons’ then that feels good to me
turbid needle
lul
lament coral
Dio wouldn't give me the special
turbid needle
Everytime I start a new run I lower my health and death defiance to see what the starting boons are
odd quarry
Poison on your special?
lament coral
it's how you beat blue shields
odd quarry
That’s true
lament coral
Aphro attack/Dio special on Chaos shield
odd quarry
Quick way of getting through those blocks
solid cairn
The stack mechanic sounds good
lament coral
poison eats through shields and armor quickly, and weak guarantees Priv Stat proc
plus, Aphro/Dio duo that increases max poison stack to 8
turbid needle
Also another random question: what's you guy's least used God, as in their boons?
lament coral
Poseidon
turbid needle
huh, weird
odd quarry
I had a hilarious sword run tho that might work; wave + Artemis support fire + Zeus Dash + Dbl Lightning
abstract pilot
Also Poseidon
lament coral
Ares is my 2nd least used god
odd quarry
So many effects going off all at once lol
lament coral
what heat are you on?
turbid needle
whom?
odd quarry
Poseidon does nothing against bosses barring his boss dmg boon
turbid needle
Are you asking me?
lament coral
yes
abstract pilot
I'm around 15 on everything
lament coral
you'll see why once you go up
turbid needle
I mean it is true that his effects do nothing to most bosses
But he is pretty nice for regular enemies
Plus I don't really have any issues with the bosses anyways
naive cobalt
I appreciate razor shoals against Asterius
turbid needle
My least used God is probably Dionysus
lament coral
I take it you don't play Chaos shield then
lament coral
understanda 🅱️ le
turbid needle
Shield is too slow for me
turbid needle
I hate most of Dio's boons
lament coral
try maxed out Chaos shield with Dio special
turbid needle
Considering my most important noon is for cast
lament coral
it'll change your perception of shield's speediness in a jiffy
mild crag
Try Eris with Dio attack
turbid needle
If I take his, I will be basically stuck waiting till his clouds go off
And honestly I very much doubt anything could top the speed of the bow but idk
I may try it
Currently I'm just maxing out Guan Yu
abstract pilot
my fastest run was old chaos shield with zeus
mild crag
turbid needle
"old"?
mild crag
Bow is like the slowest weapon
abstract pilot
i don't like taking zeus, but once you get some of his boons man do you want more
turbid needle
Bruh wdym slowest weapon?
abstract pilot
before this patch where the shields all went forward
turbid needle
Have you even used the bow m8?
turbid needle
Maxed out?
mild crag
Yes
abstract pilot
which one? hera? chiron?
mild crag
Mostly Chiron
mild crag
Poseidon Sword is the fastest, Chaos shield is the second fastest
turbid needle
The last one is way faster than it
abstract pilot
well, there's a difference between fastest if you get to pick the seed and fastest in general
thorny edge
hera is the cast one
mild crag
What sort of clear times do you get with the bow?
lament coral
Hera can't deal with blue shields
turbid needle
Tf are blue shields?
thorny edge
thoose things that eat up an instance of damage
lament coral
gives all enemies blue shields that absorb 100% damage 1/2 times
turbid needle
I still haven't needed to use those
Currently it's all in trap, damage and area time
mild crag
Hera is better than the other bows but bow still suck 
lament coral
I started with Extreme Measures and trap damage
mild crag
Extreme measures is good to pick first
glossy plaza
sure, until a Hydra fight that cost you 40+ hp in 1s
turbid needle
Well that's why use the dodge
glossy plaza
or a guillotine that does 150 damage
mild crag
You'll notice it more when you're running overtime or middle management or anything really
glossy plaza
or a vase that does 90+ and also stuns
lament coral
you could be Hermes himself and still eat a cleaver for dinner
turbid needle
Idk what you guys mean considering I barely ever get hit by traps
mild crag
Or extreme measures
turbid needle
The only traps I get hit by
Are the flame balls in Asphodel
And that's on rare occasions
mild crag
Most pacts are negligible at low heat
thorny edge
http://prntscr.com/qxmy43 do hades vases still do damage like that?
mild crag
Unless you pick toxic ones like no choice
@thorny edge that's to do with when they pop up
They used to hit you for like 40 damage if he spawned them on you
turbid needle
Btw anyone tried/used the Godhood thingy?
thorny edge
ahh
mild crag
Godhood?
abstract pilot
i feel like heightened security is good to pick up first just because you are going to want to have it all the time once you start racking up heat and you might as well get used to it
mild crag
God Mode
thorny edge
godmode
mild crag
No I haven't
turbid needle
Ah
rotund wagon
da godmobile
thorny edge
i used it for my first few runs
mild crag
It just gives you damage resist when you die
glossy plaza
I'd prefer to not get used to die to a single vase
bold salmon
Is there a good video guide to spear? Feel like im missing something still.
rotund wagon
Also it seems to me Aspect of Achilles is a direct upgrade to the default spear
glossy plaza
or a guillotine for breakfast
lament coral
it gives you damage resist right away, and it increases each time you die
turbid needle
But is there a limit to the damage resist?
mild crag
@rotund wagon not exactly if you have upgraded zag aspect but if your zag spear is not leveled then yes
thorny edge
it starts at llike 20% and each time you die it adds 2%
mild crag
@turbid needle max 80% damage resist from all sources
turbid needle
Huh
Makes sense
Otherwise If it went to 100
That would basically ruin the game completely
mild crag
Some might consider god mode ruining it altogether, that just depends on how hard people individually find the game
keen ocean
I'm actually wondering if there's a way to reset Godhood. I wanna start doing runs without it, but I'm afraid of going cold turkey 😅
turbid needle
Even with godmode
turbid needle
Well, I mean as much as possible
lament coral
I wonder if it's possible with maxed out god mode
turbid needle
Ooooh
rotund wagon
also aspect of achilles bull rush does proc boons
mild crag
Elysium is too long for 7 minutes at max heat
turbid needle
Yeah that would be a problem lol
mild crag
I can get up to theseus and asterius but always deadlined
turbid needle
Also anyone who uses the gun, ever?
mild crag
Me, exclusively almost
turbid needle
huh
thorny edge
kossetsu has rail in their name lol
mild crag
turbid needle
I've tried it but it's always too slow
Granted, I haven't maxed it out
Just gotten all the aspects
mild crag
Eris and Hestia are only good at max
And Zag aspect is not good
Hestia is very fast
As long as you don't turn on damage control
And you get one of the AoE hammers
Piercing or explosive
thorny edge
damage control is blue shield
mild crag
I'm a eris user lately
lament coral
but sometimes Zeus is an ass and doesn't give me the attack
mild crag
So yeah Zeus attack or Dio
lament coral
which makes me not wanna play rail ever again
mild crag
And shoutout to support fire
lament coral
Support Fire, aka Rail 2: Artemis Boogaloo
mild crag
Can't see anything but it's badass
keen ocean
I love Eris Triple Cluster bombing.
Very rarely does it line up to let me do it, but when it happens, it's amazing.
thorny edge
final boss summoned a bunch of splitters and put out a few casts, i had zeus attack rail, cluster bomb and support fire
died because i got overwhelmed by everything going on
bold salmon
Man i just can not figure out the guan aspect
Thought i was figuring it out then i was getting 7 different gods for boons and 3rd boss just destroyed me
lament coral
did you get spin speed or special charge hammers?
bold salmon
I got larger spin and special does more armor damage
Options werent great though i didnt know special charge was good. Had that on the second and chose armor
lament coral
it's my personal preference that if you can't get spin speed, special charge is the 2nd best option
turbid needle
My plan with guan yu is basically do a special build. The spin attack is gravy, really. If you get the hammers for it, sure it becomes good, but outside of that it’s kinda slow
bold salmon
And i think thats probably my big issue is cuz its the unique part of it i want to use it more despite it maybe not being the best option
Also considering a Ares cast with sword. Is Pos aspect or Nem aspect better for that?
bold salmon
Im confused...did something change or am i just unlucky? Seemed like once i had 3 gods i would consistently get those 3 gods, but now im just getting random stuff left and right.
shrewd topaz
The more the merrier right?
glossy plaza
wait, is it normal for Poseidon's Cast and his Duo with Demeter to cause his Casts not explode on-hit?
limpid vortex
One of my keepsakes expired. That's never happened before. What does it mean?
last nacelle
It means you can't pick it again that run.
You can't switch off and switch back to a keepsake.
limpid vortex
Ohhhhh okay, gotcha, thanks.
bold salmon
Cuz i have issues with how it reads, does support fire with guan work with every hit of frost fair or just after you use it?
bold salmon
His spin. Really shouldnt say "hit" then.
lament coral
hit would imply it procs of every hit, e.g. GY's spin would proc it multiple times because it hits multiple times
now, since you perform only 1 charged attack, you get 1 SF proc
bold salmon
Why i said it "shouldnt" say hit. Cuz thats what it implies.
lament coral
oh, it says hit now? I see
shrewd topaz
Yeah, it's supposed to be per actioned attack, not per hit as it currently reads
Think it's just an oversight since they added guan yu recently
hollow sorrel
Is there a mod to just grant me more darkness? I still only have 1 fated reroll from the mirror, and I honestly don't want to just grind low heat runs for darkness
because I'm usually running deadline, so I can't pick up the darkness treasure troves
elfin wagon
You can check out #self-promotion, there's a guy called Pony something who's promoting nexusmods
hollow sorrel
Thanks
glossy plaza
damn it, why does the wiki has to be down right when I'm on my 32 heat run https://i.imgur.com/4djM8Lg.jpg
close to boss now
unlucky
can't even save cause I chose a boon already
need to choose the next room
nocturne marsh
elfin wagon
Hi, press F10 in game to report bugs 
turbid needle
Thanks for the list, @solid cairn , but you're missing Zagreus Aspect on the spear and bow.
solid cairn
What no I’m not
turbid needle
turbid needle
Oh, they were left off the bottom.
solid cairn
Guan yu isn’t on their either lul
fallow niche
Hera and Achilles are way better than zeus shield
solid cairn
It is not in there
fallow niche
And yeah GY isnt in that image
turbid needle
Achilles drops you typically somewhere unsafe.
fallow niche
What, no? You choose where you throw it
turbid needle
The direction.
fallow niche
Its skill based on how you use it, AND you can return it to you if you dont want to go there
The damage bonus is nuts
timid pawn
how much harder is middle management punishment?
solid cairn
Zag spear used to be pretty good but if I want an RNG heavy spear I’m going with the god tier glaive
solid cairn
How
fallow niche
Flurry Jab is actually stronger if built right than EL
Have a 12 minute run with it that probably could've been much faster
solid cairn
What’s best attack with that
naive cobalt
I like Zag spear because the special return is super smooth, and I like Guan Yu because I don't need to bother returning the spear.
fallow niche
Yeah Zag and GY are my favorite spears
Achilles is very good but its hard to master
solid cairn
I was under the impression that flurry jab was a meme build but I guess it’s a viable build
mild crag
Hades is really cool but
fallow niche
Flurry Jab is legit incredible, no meme
mild crag
It's also really not
solid cairn
Hades needs a unique special
turbid needle
Flurry Jab is awesome.
fallow niche
Yeah Hades aspect is the weakest spear aspect I'd say @mild crag
mild crag
Hades special needs to apply the debuff
solid cairn
I suggested a homing skull that gives the damage @mild crag
mild crag
So it works with flurry jabbu
solid cairn
That homing skull can pierce one enemy and has even more pierce with multi skewer
I suggested the idea in feedback but got downvoted
Thoughts?
sacred idol
I thought someone said once that Hades spear did apply it as a debuff...
solid cairn
The pierce thing could be changed
solid cairn
That’s generous
sacred idol
Zagreus shield A?
sacred idol
half of this 'tier list' doesn't make sense
solid cairn
Forge has made better ones
sacred idol
then again, tier lists are usually nonsense
solid cairn
0 heat, 32 heat and overall lists
turbid needle
Wasn't complete when I sent that screencap, but go off.
sacred idol
don't care if it's complete or not, it just looks confused as all hell ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Is this based on objective DPS or clear time potential or what?
turbid needle
I've never calced out DPS.
sacred idol
Then what is this based on?
turbid needle
It's a super subjective "by feel" list, based on how strong I think each weapon is.
turbid needle
Sorry, I forgot that all shield Aspects are automatically S+.
sacred idol
my bad, I couldn't find the rest of the convo from scrolling up and thought this was some kind of attempt at objective
also nah, I think the Zagreus shield is...
eeeeh
boring and also kind of lame
turbid needle
It's Aegis. It's top tier.
sacred idol
if it's personal feel/preference, I'd honestly knock the zag down
shield's base damage is so low that without any gimmick, and a nerfed passive at that, you're even more reliant on RNG than usual
mild crag
Blocking is a pretty good gimmick
turbid needle
You haven't tried alternating dash attacks and attacks, have you?
Shield has very serviceable DPS and blocking is ridiculously OP.
sacred idol
I have, it's still significantly slower without a good boon
turbid needle
No weapon scales well without an Attack or Special boon.
sacred idol
I think I had trash poseidon on during a boss fight and nothing else.
hestia rail says hi
mild crag
The only thing that destroys without a boon is hestia so
turbid needle
Maxes out at 300 without boons?
sacred idol
but also, I mean, it's objectively slower.
turbid needle
It does better without boons, still falls off at Elysium.
solid cairn
What have I created
sacred idol
Compared to most stuff, other than, I dunno, base Rail attack
Which is just a bit crap without Zeus or Dio or... maybe Ares?
sacred idol
yeah, but shield feels extra bad when you have nothing, for some reason
turbid needle
But you have defense.
lament coral
which shield are we talking about?
sacred idol
basic
sacred idol
you have defense, but that's literally it, Zag just seems like the worst and most boring shield
lament coral
especially now that World Smasher's been nerfed
lament coral
you can't auto attack anymore
turbid needle
World Smasher is fine.
sacred idol
it used to auto cycle?
turbid needle
Yes, and somehow that's a "nerf."
lament coral
yeah, you could just hold the attack button down
sacred idol
It's not fine. It removes most of your defense.
lament coral
well, it's no longer as broken as it was
sacred idol
Because you lose the ability to block hold completely
lament coral
argo, nerfed
turbid needle
Ergo.
lament coral
no, Argo, the movie by Ben Affleck
sacred idol
So you're immediately forced to time all your parries instead, which is NOT a listed downside.
sacred idol
During its attack animation
turbid needle
High skill floor items that reward meeting their requirement can still be very good.
lament coral
in fact, old Smasher was so good with its block, you could smash hades
and not take damage
sacred idol
So again, you go from being able to hold a block, to having to time the block...
lament coral
by just holding attack
sacred idol
...and it kills defense against beam attacks
lament coral
you don't need to block when you could just dash and smash
sacred idol
Didn't really feel worth it the one time I took it for the fates
turbid needle
There are no beam attacks that are impossible to dodge.
sacred idol
🤔 I managed to facetank Hades' death rays
lament coral
can't believe Shrek is not an official emoji
sacred idol
@lament coral are you the lemme smash meme
lament coral
I don't dash after smash
sacred idol
still, it's an unlisted penalty to the original shield mechanic
lament coral
pretty sure it says in the description
sacred idol
Also
the charge shot hammer lets you block fine
Your Bull Rush is replaced with a close hit that deals 70 damage.
No
lament coral
replaced
sacred idol
Your Bull Rush instead fires a piercing shot that deals 80 damage.
...I got it just the other day. It didn't say anything about no hold blocks.
lament coral
I take it you want to be able to hold the shield then?
sacred idol
...yes?
Like Charged Shot does
Just make it 'release to smash' or 'block after smash if you're still holding'
Charged Shot also ignores shields, apparently
turbid needle
I don't think it does.
It pierces through enemies, but pretty sure shields still block it.
sacred idol
Says so there, and I think I played with it and it actually did...
turbid needle
There's other attacks that are "piercing" that go through enemies but not shields.
sacred idol
I just remember playing with Charged Shot and it felt a lot better
turbid needle
They fixed the sticking after it goes off.
Used to be rooted in place which left you open to damage.
sacred idol
Quick charge hammer+that just seems better than going for world smasher and losing your long block.
thorny edge
if the profectile isnt stopped at the shield then it means its going to damage the enemy once its past the shield
lament coral
the wording seems consistent to me
sacred idol
Because then you get a higher damage bow that charges really fast
lament coral
Your Attack is replaced with a big chop that deals 90 base damage.
what's World Cleaver
sacred idol
@lament coral But the effects are not. Charged Shot lets you hold the Attack button to block indefinitely like the normal shield. World Smasher leaves you vulnerable the moment the smash ends.
lament coral
and it replaces your triple hit combo with a single chop
sacred idol
they all replace an attack function
only one removes a secondary function, and that's world smasher
lament coral
there's no other hammer with "instead"
sacred idol
that's completely beside any relevant point
lament coral
at least the one in the wiki, which is missing some
sacred idol
I'm not picky about the descriptions
It's just that WS has a hidden penalty by removing your ability to block for more than about a second
plush sundial
Has Super Giant said if they plan on implementing seeds at some point?
lament coral
well, just hit up SGG regarding it at #hades-feedback
sacred idol
Ask Demeter :p
lament coral
I don't really get their approach to hammers or aspects
like rail's Cluster Bomb, which got buffed from -50% damage to -30%, so it's straight up better than triple special now
or that some aspects, like Chaos, get nerfed, while Hestia sees no change
turbid needle
Triple Bomb is way more flexible.
sacred idol
I mean, it also scatters the hitboxes, so unless you play risky and shove your gun up in someone's face to quintuple cluster them, you won't hit the same enemy with all 5.
Hestia isn't cheese
It's strong, but it's not as easy
Shield of Chaos was cheeseball and it's still feeling pretty cheesy
lament coral
you're gonna have to explain to me how hitting an enemy 5 times with your shield's shields is cheese
but 150 with no boons isn't
sacred idol
have you SEEN its ttk with dionysus?
lament coral
especially after I saw a man go through Tartarus, Asphodel, and most of Elysium without an attack or special boon, relying solely on that 150 damage
turbid needle
Spread Fire is better.
Chaos Aspect gets the rep it does because it has blocking attached.
sacred idol
Mm, sure, after nerf to Chaos probably
turbid needle
Only one lightning bolt per shot.
turbid needle
RIP
lament coral
Chaos is still missing that one extra shield it's supposed to have
sacred idol
The nerf was changing its shield spread, right?
lament coral
someone pointed that out last week
lvl 5 Chaos says +5 extra shields, but you only get 4
the 5th one is your own
sacred idol
Yeah, that felt buggy
What was the old chaos pattern? All forward like the normal shield throw, but machinegunned out?
lament coral
and yeah, Chaos spread in a star pattern now instead of all in front of you
and arc in front of you, same way Aprho cast spreads
turbid needle
Old Chaos Pattern was in a fan in front of you, all at once.
lament coral
yep
sacred idol
the star pattern looks way cooler tbh
turbid needle
It's still pretty easy to get shotguns.
lament coral
it does, it also reminds me of some other game whose name I can't remember
I think someone mentioned Diablo 3
that might be it
sacred idol
yeah it's still very easy to use
personally unless the shield is Chaosed into self-damage, it feels a lot easier to use than Hestia
Hestia is clunky, which offsets its sheer raw power
sacred idol
rapid cycling isn't exactly a smooth ride unless you rebind reload
lament coral
I had no problems using R
hollow sorrel
just rebind the reload button to R1?
sacred idol
I did
lament coral
I just hate it and it took me an hour finish the run
sacred idol
although it's RT for me