Hades still should be viable on the condition that you most likely need at least the hammer upgrade for quick spin for it
#h1-builds-and-combat
inner heath
acoustic nova
especially with some daedelus upgrades to spin
hollow sorrel
The biggest tip for Hades spear is when you want to charged attack, start with a dash attack instead of a regular attack, because the dash attack is faster, so you get to the charging faster
(because in order to charge the spear, an attack has to happen first)
acoustic nova
you also move a bit I believe
inner heath
Extended range would be nice too for that. But charge spin during spawns => get extra damage => attack/special for dps seems decent enough. It's just getting the spins in on heat
acoustic nova
but for my last runs I've pretty much defaulted to Poseidon or Hera aspect. I find that cast dps can get pretty crazy
or well, burst damage
inner heath
Poseidon Hunting Blades and Hera True Shot are two of my favorite builds in the game, yeah
Along with Aphrodite Chaos. Though I want to try a Dionysus Chaos build. Also, Sea Storm on Chaos is fun, but I've only run that on farming runs so IDK how it works on heat
acoustic nova
Hera + Aphrodite cast is great
Poseidon with it as well can get ridiculous. If you have the hermes bloodstone vacuum it is just awesome
hollow sorrel
I honestly don't know how to hit the final boss with the charged spear, when the boss is at +40% speed though, unless it's at very specific times, like after the ending lag of the boss' spin attack
acoustic nova
and the hermes cast speed
inner heath
I use True Shot because crit is just too good DPS. Plus, it specs me into Artemis, which can give dual shot and the +3 cast. So it's just sooo much DPS
inner heath
I haven't run Hades Aspect into the final boss in forever, so I couldn't say, but I remember being able to spin->dash out if he's charging his own dash attack
acoustic nova
Demeter base cast isn't great
hollow sorrel
he doesn't charge his dash attack on +40% speed
acoustic nova
but demeter-dyo cast works well
inner heath
I meant his spin attack
My bad
And the demeter base cast, even with the artemis duo boon, couldn't track the final boss quick enough on +40% speed, so I haven't run that cast since
It just felt useless
hollow sorrel
you could do it after his spin attack, but there's not enough time beforehand either. At +40% speed, it's less than a second of windup
acoustic nova
Hmm, I think there is a bit of an issue where some weapons are just that much easier to play. Shield runs are trivial if you have the patience
it blocking everything is OP in my mind
hollow sorrel
the charged spear attack itself takes a second to complete, and he would spin attack before that amount of time
inner heath
I'm fairly positive I've done it using the iframes of the dash, but the timing window was tight. But once again, it's been a while since I've ran the Hades spear, so it could be different. I'm talking months ago when I last ran it
acoustic nova
maybe not on a timer, but apart from that yeah
inner heath
Oh, you'd have to charge while he's invisible for sure
hollow sorrel
except that the shield doesn't reliably block his charged spear attack, or his lasers anymore
acoustic nova
doesn't it? just finished a run earlier today and I didn't see any difference
hollow sorrel
I think it might be, if you're too close to the boss, that the spear thrust goes through your block
inner heath
By design? or a bug?
hollow sorrel
and, it rare cases, the laser go through solid pillars or shields
acoustic nova
that's a bug
inner heath
Yeah, I think it is too
acoustic nova
when it clips the terrain
hollow sorrel
I'm not sure if it's by design. I remember the spear guys on the 3rd biome also sometimes went through shield blocks
hollow sorrel
I can sort of understand (but not really), when the laser goes through the tiny crack on the right-side pillars, but it's gone through the left pillar too, and that's one solid pillar
acoustic nova
I don't think it's a design choice
hollow sorrel
I'm fairly sure the pillars are supposed to be useable on purpose
acoustic nova
I mean, look at the graphics when that happens. the beam just cuts and starts again
hollow sorrel
but I don't understand how patch notes can say "fixed final boss hitboxes," or whatever, but it's still like this
acoustic nova
I'm not sure it's still like that though?
hollow sorrel
It was yesterday, or the day before, that it still happened to me
acoustic nova
haven't really tested it, as it trained me to just dash around instead of using that cover :V
inner heath
Well, it's still early access too. They might've fixed one way that caused it, only to discover more than one thing was causing it
Just F10 it every time so they've got the data
hollow sorrel
It was yesterday, because that was the day I was doing shield runs
acoustic nova
anyway, after many many runs of artemis cheese, I've found the joy of Zeus + Poseidon again
it's pretty sweet
tiny portal
What is artemis cheese?
Is it Artemis's fault that she has the best boons for pretty much every build?
Artemis is the only deity that I have never said "Damn... Artemis again"
inner heath
Hera Bow/Poseidon + Cast + Dual Shot + Exit Wounds + Pressure Points + Clean Kill + Whatever her legendary's boon is called + Chaos Cast Damage + Chaos Extra Bloodstones = one-shot bosses build
inner heath
Well, the cast + legendary is enough
Everything else is just added DPS
And if you're not using the Hera Bow, then Hermes Cast Speed Boon is useful too
tiny portal
Crit chance and crit damage > everything
It's just too bad Hermes item doesn't give a guaranteed Hermes boon
inner heath
Yup. Hence "cheese" because it's forcible a bit with keepsake + rerolls. But it requires a lot and requires some luck, but malleable luck
But no, it's not her fault. It's no one's fault. It's not overbearingly strong because it requires a lot of effort and micromanaging. I wouldn't even say it needs a nerf (though Dual Shot itself might)
tiny portal
There is a lot of cheese to be had in this game, like perma Doom with Athena deflect skills
inner heath
Exactly. But that's Artemis'
tiny portal
The super OP stuff is what makes any game, especially games like this, truly fun
"I've suffered long enough, finally I got the build that wrecks!!!!"
inner heath
Yeah, and personally I wouldn't consider it super OP anyway, because if you don't get her legendary then, well, you're kinda SOL in terms of DPS. So many better builds
It's balanced by RNG and the list of prerequisites
tiny portal
My favorite build in the 40 hours Ive put in is the poseidon wall smash build with % smash dmg to bosses
acoustic nova
I've found that you don't need the whole chain. I think the most important is the artemis cast, and maybe the generic x% crit chance for anything
more bloodstones, or anything that enhances cast is useful
you won't oneshot bosses, but throwing dice for that cast to crit is easier than most other options
if you get the whole thing and maybe the hermes fast cast you just melt anything
tiny portal
Exit Wounds is pretty substantial as well
acoustic nova
I usually get in on poseidon aspect
tiny portal
Especially if you have 6 casts, or... if really lucky, even more with Chaos boons
Throw in a daedalus special upgrade and... yikes
acoustic nova
ok but completely honestly you get similar results with any focused build
tiny portal
This game is so funny, like... 24 hours ago I felt lost and like I didn't really know what I was doing... then suddenly a bunch of things just clicked
acoustic nova
just that artemis is big numbers
though if you get get the general crit chance, that's the best boon
for any build
tiny portal
I don't think you can do as much damage in that short a time frame but the tradeoff is... you're going to take damage. Probably big damage.
If you just floor it
acoustic nova
artemis build isn't that hot against rooms full of enemies
tiny portal
Well... it is if you have the right boons and are one shotting everything and have 6 casts
That 8 minute run is an artemis cast build
acoustic nova
died like a chump in the temple a few times running that kind of build
tiny portal
on heat 8 or something
unkempt pagoda
maybe the real escape was the friends we made along the way
last nacelle
My infection has spread.
mild crag
@vestal snow i know your feedback is still valid since its not clear in game but for your interest: not all boons scale the same with rarity, rarity applies a multiplier to the base value which is not always the same for each boon. Poms scale "better" since the multiplier is applied to their value increases as well.
vestal snow
That is very good to know! I wish the game told me that
I don't even need the math. Just a tooltip that basically says exactly what you just typed
dapper bobcat
there is a wiki, but not sure if there's a ingame link
mild crag
Also some boons have set multipliers and some are variable to confuse it further 
vestal snow
"Rarity applies a multiplier to the value of a boon. Poms of Power are more effective when applied to rarer boons"
smoky oasis
guys what are some good boons even with low rarity?
dapper bobcat
athena dash
unkempt pagoda
athena dash
unkempt pagoda
drunken/passion dash if you're just looking for a quick and easy status curse
dapper bobcat
artemis generic crit chance
vestal snow
Yeah, that one scales very slowly
inner heath
passion dash currently has a really weird hitbox though
I imagine it'll be fixed in the future
mild crag
Premium vintage is always good even if its offered at low rarity
It scales well too but it's always good
tiny portal
So, when you listen to Haelian talking here... the boons and rewards are predictable?
In the second room he knows what Artemis is going to reward and knows what the door reward is going to be as well
mild crag
Haelian (and other speedrunners) play seeded runs
tiny portal
What does that mean?
mild crag
It means that the run always starts the same way, and if they play in the same way the whole run will be the same
tiny portal
reloading saves?
mild crag
yes basically using the same saved run over and over again
tiny portal
Roger
mild crag
something which starts them with a good boon combination
tiny portal
Super confusing for new players like me
dapper bobcat
if you start a run, open the first boon and then quit the game, you will get the same boons the next time
dapper bobcat
i mean, i do the first boon thing. switching starter trinket to check for any goodies
hollow sorrel
On a milder scale, it's also useful for tight deadline runs. Even if you don't fully understand how the seeds work, the first boon will always be the same choices, so you can always ensure at least the first boon will be helpful
tiny portal
Seems like a waste of time. Its one boon in a run full of boons
dapper bobcat
premium vintage for the nectar mostly
hollow sorrel
it's not a waste of time on tight deadline. If your weapon needs a good attack boon, then starting the game with an guaranteed attack boon is massively helpful. You never know if the game will starve you of attack boons for a few biomes
tiny portal
I think the only time I'd quit is if I wanted to start with a boon, and saw a daedalus hammer, in a build that the hammer is worthless for
dapper bobcat
cast builds i take it?
tiny portal
Not very useful for shield/ares either
hollow sorrel
explosive return isn't useful for shield?
tiny portal
Its fine I guess
hollow sorrel
...
tiny portal
Oh I was confusing that with dashing wallop
dapper bobcat
Pulverizing Blow is my go to, to stack freeze or hangover
tiny portal
I feel like taking pulverizing means I can't go down the poseidon route as easily with shield
Kinda have to take poseidon dash at that point
dapper bobcat
why? poseidon still adds pushback with his abilities on both hits. you only lose the base pushback
tiny portal
Depends on what you want to take
Its easier to hit attack for pushback in a lot of cases and other specials and casts can be better
Im basically talking out loud. I bought this game last week and am still working through it trying not to spoil it too much with information overload from the interwebz
But also, want to at least have an information foundation
ember raven
karmic coyote
close call, though
inner heath
10hp. How clutch
civic barn
i know that if you reset a run, the opening is always the same (you'll get the same upgrade where you land), and i think to a degree you can emulate what you did before; but I didn't know you can completely replicate a run.
inner heath
Better asked in hades-spoilers, speedy, but I believe the answer is a ||5||
earnest delta
mild crag
@civic barn you can to a point, speed runners do it to the end of Tartarus using rng manipulation techniques
civic barn
is the reward determined by room selection?
mild crag
It's determined by a rng which generates the seed for the next room
civic barn
which i assume means that they have a flowchart for what room leads to what rather than say, it's a diceroll everytime you generate a new room
oh ok
mild crag
RNGs are pseudo random though so their outcomes are deterministic if you take the exact same actions d
I won't get too specific with how it works but they do certain things to influence the next room and rewards
If you've watched a speedrun you may notice after they beat a room sometimes they throw casts at a wall
civic barn
oh hm
mild crag
Manipulates the next room
civic barn
good to know, though i think i won't dig too deep into it
mild crag
If you're just playing the game normally then it won't ever be a concern
It's veri interesting stuff but useless in most contexts
civic barn
it is
native ether
What is the point of the thumbs up/down for this feedback? The Feedback is for the dev team not for the users. prism
The Thumbs Up and Down are to give the devs how "relatable" this feedback is.
If it's not very relatable, it's likely not a core issue or it's an issue caused by another problem.
mild crag
also the devs are making a game for the players not themselves, so it matters more what the players think than the devs
green sable
So far so good
rugged estuary
If my game crashes during a fight, what happens? Will the run be lost, or is there some kind of "autosave"?
lean swift
before each level you choose boon path, one of the items is a bag with a scull in it, if I choose it all I see is "+3." What is that?
mild crag
the skull bag means it's a shop
lean swift
@native ether So if there's a logic error in how the game is played, and no one cares, that means means it will never be addressed?
mild crag
the +3 is the life you gain from the Cthonic Vitality mirror of night upgrade
lean swift
@mild crag What?
mild crag
did I say something confusing
lean swift
So then it's just a general life upgrade?
lean swift
Is it a perm upgrade?
mild crag
It's life recovery
rugged estuary
It is just a heal for 3 every room.
green sable
Life is good...
lean swift
I see, cool.
mild crag
I'm surprised you didn't know this if you have a maxed mirror
lean swift
Life is full of surprises.
lean swift
Cool
elfin wagon
@rugged estuary if you received damage in the fight, the run will be considered abandoned (i.e. you have 'Given Up') with a crash and you will return to the courtyard next time you start the game
native ether
@002 (Pear) So if there's a logic error in how the game is played, and no one cares, that means means it will never be addressed?
If you're referring to your specific suggestion about Darkness, people downvoted it because you can check your current amount of all materials if you press the boon info button.
@lean swift
Otherwise if you mean a bug, just f10 report it.
Using the bug tracker for things you think are bugs is better than trying to feedback them. If it's a bug it's fixed, if not, no harm in sending it.
rugged estuary
@elfin wagon Thanks!
elfin wagon
No problem!
oblique tusk
yeah, athena attack guan is dumb
heady zephyr
i like how guan yu immediately went from 'why would you ever use this' to 'why would you ever use any other aspect' after the patch
unkempt pagoda
guan yu is my first non-zag maxed aspect purely because of how much i love it
green sable
wow
versed ibex
Just did an Ares/Artemis run and got two Chaos boons that increased cast damage 👌
green sable
nice
fringe blade
Is there an audio cue of some kind when theres a fishing spot available?
unkempt pagoda
there's a bell ding
fringe blade
At the start?
fringe blade
aah ok thank you!
unkempt pagoda
👍
soft harbor
it's not incredibly noticeable, so if you're trying to get some fishies, pay lots of attention
rugged estuary
@fringe blade To be precise, the audio cue happens after you pick up your reward
soft harbor
there's also very commonly one in the very first room and one in the hub room in Styx
sometimes you have to do a run through one or two of the gauntlets in Styx to get it to pop up
craggy ermine
ive been sitting at the fishing place for a while and nothing is happening
does it usually take this long
karmic coyote
Most of the time it's less than 6s
green sable
for me it usually happens in a moment or 2
craggy ermine
its been like 5 minutes lol
green sable
you've probly lost it then hun
green sable
k
fringe blade
RIP, my duo boon poseidon/demeter cast went out of bounds in the Hades fight and I cant retrieve it
green sable
oopsie
fringe blade
Oh yeah it came back 😂
soft harbor
🙃
hybrid frost
@craggy ermine Yeah, currently the fishing has no natural cut-off point. If you sneeze, blink, or otherwise miss the cue-off, Zag will stand there for the rest of eternity.
Should really be fixed.
crude gull
^^
soft harbor
okay so i'm not the only dummy that's stood there for a straight minute wondering when the fish pops then
about 5 seconds after a fish pop, him going "must've missed it" and pulling the rod back would make me feel much less like a moron
atomic panther
It's not affected by Attack or Special boons, and it doesn't benefit from Boiling Blood or Backstab, but it does benefit from Privileged Position
unkempt pagoda
support fire is its own damage source, if that's what you mean
unkempt pagoda
as in, only global damage increases will increase its damage
livid comet
yeah the rail special will boost you
unkempt pagoda
things like eris, butterfly, and privileged
livid comet
and maybe crit
fringe blade
Thanks guy!
unkempt pagoda
👍
clever dock
i was about to beat the game for the first time and i was really happy
||and then he started standing back up and in my head i was just nononononono||
soft harbor
you'll get there, I think everyone had that same experience
stuck bough
Yup, that was a dark day lol
livid comet
really?
Because I was waiting for that to happen
not overly surprised
maybe I've seen it too often
marsh bolt
The first time that happened to me i was using the adamant rail and uh... Oh lord I was not prepared
nimble cypress
There's some kind of combo I managed once with adamant rail and an athena boon that lets you just sweep half the screen clear of projectiles but I can't remember how I did it
i'm pretty sure it involves a daedalus upgrade
livid comet
cluster bomb + athena spec?
nimble cypress
i think so
green sable
that sounds fun
nimble cypress
There is a certain unique visual effect that sometimes happens if the final boss hits me with certain attacks. I assume this actually does something but I haven't been able to analyze it because I'm kind of busy with the final boss every time I see it, obviously. what does it actually do?
last nacelle
The outline?
thorny edge
the green around the eddgess?
last nacelle
That's caused by having a cast stone stuck into you. You can see the flaming skull by your health bar. Hades has Boiling Blood, so he deals more damage to things that have his cast stones stuck in them.
thorny edge
you were hit by his cast, you're on the receiving end of boiling blood
thorny edge
i think you take something like 100% moore damage
nimble cypress
I was trying to be oblique so as not to spoil it but eh
yeah it seemed like I was getting chunked
last nacelle
It might be the biggest damage spike you can experience in that fight ever since Heightened Security got nerfed and can't have 2 levels anymore.
thorny edge
and doesnt apply to his pots anymore i think
rugged estuary
Damn it.
green sable
?
rugged estuary
Just tried 32 heat again, lost a super close run to hades.
I could have definitely made that.
nimble cypress
I hope the last weapon space in the courtyard is gonna be occupied by the minotaur's axe. It's such a cool-looking weapon
last nacelle
Did you follow Hynos's advice?
knotty crypt
Woo! Pretty new to the game. It took me twenty runs to beat Meg for the first time, and I died in the room just after, but I beat her again the next run, and then beat the hydra on my first try!
thorny edge
Nice!
nimble cypress
Congrats! What's your favorite weapon?
thorny edge
hydra gave me a lot of trouble starting out,, took me like 15 runs to get past him 😅
last nacelle
Hooray for the (rightfully) nerfed Hydra.
knotty crypt
Probably the bow, though the sword is the one I'm currently using. And the spear's dash attack is crazy.
nimble cypress
That's surprising! I tend to hate bows in this kind of game.
knotty crypt
I was at full health at the end of it because of the daedalus boon that heals you for 2 each hit and makes your health alot less.
Yeah, the bow's Q is just really fun, especially when you can get a status condition with it, or knockback.
nimble cypress
knockback is bonkers on every weapon tbh
get somebody against a corner and play wallball
knotty crypt
Yep, definitely. Wallbangs do so much damage.
rugged estuary
Honestly, you'll have to find your own configuration
I hate tight deadline for example, but others consider it easy heat
nimble cypress
Try not to get killed. :hypnos:
rugged estuary
but basically, lasting consequences, budget cuts, no choice and tight deadline are the ones you have to juggle your remaining heat with
everything else you pretty much have to top up
north hedge
which one is consequences?
thorny edge
reduced healing
north hedge
Might be -100% to a min of 1
I assumed it would remove it so I kept it at 75
Thanks
green sable
did GY actually have life steal on it?
thorny edge
on the spin attackk
north hedge
It is v. strong, especially because due to hammer pool
thorny edge
its amazing, can clear whole rooms while standing behind a wall
north hedge
You can almost always get big spin/quick spin
earnest compass
are there specifics to rerolling room rewards?
thorny edge
from what i understand each room has only few options, so if yoou rerolll twice you've seen all that room has to offer
north hedge
blue rerolls to blue
can't reroll away a story or a chara room
heady zephyr
does delta chamber with hestia aspect empower the whole 3 round burst?
thorny edge
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/520688402958516254/660997121406926849/hades_room_rewards_guide.png what stoike said, gold rooms and blue rooms have their own pools
heady zephyr
it does not
north hedge
Guan Yu still heals at -100% by the way
thorny edge
sweet
heady zephyr
they really nerfed the hell out of hazard bomb's self damage
2 damage per...almost pointless to keep it in tbh
olive sand
Hello. When a boon says "attack deals more damage", does that include dash attacks?
faint sonnet
yes
atomic panther
Yes
olive sand
Great! Thanks. : D
oblique tusk
is it even possible to reroll darkness or gemstones into nectar?
or do you have to specifically roll 3 times to get it
limpid vortex
I was so painfully close to my first clear. I don't even want to say what attempt Im on.
mild crag
as many tries as it takes to clear it for you is exactly right for you, no need to worry about what number when everybody's different 
tall whale
fwiw, shield makes a lot of fights considerably easier, in my experience
mild crag
also good job getting so close!
limpid vortex
Yeah I love shield. I found a build I really like, too.
I got a really lucky Ares/Artemis build with blade rifts
tall whale
i've said it before and i'll say it again: ares call + viscious cycle is bonkers
inner heath
For the Hermes on that infographic, I assume it's 2 per run outside of the one sold in Styx?
thorny edge
i think the styx shop one only shows up if you dont have two already
couldve been changed in a recent patch
inner heath
I feel like I've 100% had three Hermes boons before
Maybe I'm wrong, but I would swear by it, at the moment
mild crag
You can get 2 during the run and one from Styx shop
inner heath
Okay, that's what I thought. Thanks
oblique tusk
is there a way to tell if a room has an upgraded variant in styx?
like, are skull-marked rooms always upgraded items?
rancid shore
yes
fallow niche
You can get a max of 3 hermes boons iirc
north hedge
How does poison work, speicifically multiple source values? Say I have my Attack which inflicts Hangover at 7 per tick, but the Aid which is 17 per tick and I attack him to three stacks and then call for the last 2
do I have two stacks at 17 and 3 at 7?
Or do they override based on time/value?
loud glacier
20 odd hours in and I've only just realised ||you have to select which weapon aspect you're using, so much blood wasted thinking I was upgrading all 3 
||
shrewd topaz
Ouch
atomic panther
I think that is how Dio works, yeah
green sable
i was never very good at those status affect knowlege stuffs
opal bay
well I think it goes such way: Once the full stack is on, they stack the poision overall and per tick the damage is equal of how much each poision does. With that each tick does 55 Damage, until one of poision runs out and the one that runs out is the earliest so the damage goes down to 48 and so on unless you keep on attacking so it restacks, but if it is not aid it will end up 35.
mild crag
Eris + Hazard Bomb why 
also I think the damage is individual for each stack the information is just hidden since it can't be displayed easily
karmic coyote
Does normal doom effect override curse of longing?
mild crag
Yes it'll just reapply
karmic coyote
Phew, would be worse than it's already is otherwise
fallow niche
doesnt it just increase DPS technically?
like it does the normal damage and then it does 25% a second time
and then 25% of that iirc
fringe blade
What should I be pairing Poseidon boons with? I find I breeze through biomes 1-4, but when I get to ||Hades ||my damage is so weak even if I have the boom that amplifies knock back damage on bosses
fallow niche
poseidon is honestly quite a poor god on his own and his only good duo boon is his zeus duo boon
karmic coyote
Yeah but compared with other duos it feels lackluster, the damage is so pathetic it basically does nothing
fallow niche
and the amped boss damage boon is total trash
ima just be honest its awful
idk why the % is so insignificant
@karmic coyote poseidon + zeus duo is legit
but its the only reason to ever get poseidon honestly
besides just value getting his dash because its good
dense star
Glad I'm not the only one that's come to like Poseidon dash at least
karmic coyote
Oh i mean curse of longing, poseidon boon is quite fun, choose him everytime i use shield
dense star
Yeah basically
heady zephyr
i feel like too many of the rail's hammer upgrades are built around a sustained fire playstyle
mild crag
I need more consolation over losing my run to hazard bomb
heady zephyr
it might be cool to see something that, say, halved your magazine but also doubled your reload speed
mild crag
I can't get over it
karmic coyote
My condolences
fallow niche
hestia is all about reload but it doesnt really synergize with any hammers lmao
some aspects have that problem with hammers
also there are some good special hammers for rail
the burst special in an arc is incredible
heady zephyr
overall eris aspect feels the best served for rail right now
in terms of hammer boons at least
fallow niche
yeah definitely
but that's only because no hammers really help hestia and zag is just crap
zag is just a worse eris
heady zephyr
zag aspect is pointless when there are like three hammer boons that nullify the need to reload anyway
fallow niche
basically
fallow niche
fire rate, damage, something
karmic coyote
Wasn't there used to be a dash to reload upgrade, why did they remove it?
fallow niche
now that sounds op with hestia
thats probably why
that hammer + hermes dashes on hestia sounds like ez game
karmic coyote
Makes sense, but is it as op as quick spin + guan yu
fallow niche
easily more so
heady zephyr
honestly, with a good artemis attack boon, hestia can get pretty insane dps-wise
heady zephyr
guan yu is crazy because of the heal, not the damage
fallow niche
^
quick spin is what makes it playable on 32 heat
hestia rail is just playable on 32 heat without any hammer nonsense
heady zephyr
i'd say hestia is pretty reliant on explosive shot or whatever it's called
fallow niche
not really, though it is really nice to have
sonic violet
Well, I made the right choice in opening this chat just as I was running Guan Yu on the spear
fallow niche
the fastest 32 heat speedrun last patch was a guy using hestia rail getting crap rng and a late explosive in elysium
sonic violet
Thanks a lot for the quick spin advice
sonic violet
Although, I do have rather the issue whenever I run the rail, I even ran a cast+dash build instead of actually using the weapon once
fallow niche
zag rail or another aspect?
sonic violet
Generally
fallow niche
eris rail can do cast builds but i dont generally rec it
heady zephyr
i prefer achilles aspect in terms of playstyle but objectively guan yu leaves it in the dirt
fallow niche
achilles aspect spear is very good
hard to use though
i would actually say achilles is probably far more powerful when played perfectly
heady zephyr
it's extremely good with the hammer upgrade that adds cc on return
hmmm, for bosses i might agree
fallow niche
it does a ton more damage and has a movement ability
heady zephyr
then again i'm at like 6 heat on my weapons rn
sonic violet
I mean, my dash+cast build relied on not using the rail at all, because that has to be my worst weapon as I always perform poorly with it
fallow niche
not everyone enjoys all weps so thats fine
i personally really enjoy special builds on eris rail
heady zephyr
i personally like hestia rail the best tbh
heady zephyr
hestia, hera and achilles are my favourite in terms of playstyle
karmic coyote
I like hades spear, imagine somehow you still retain punishing sweep while having flurry jab
heady zephyr
speaking of zeus, his special on his shield can be pretty nuts
karmic coyote
Don't forget support fire
heady zephyr
since the patch made it tick damage much faster
heady zephyr
trick with zeus shield is that you can trail it along behind you while running the other way
which makes it exceptional for enemies that chase
for enemies that stand still literally just throw it at them and duck behind a pillar
karmic coyote
Isn't the shield still way too slow on return, can it outrun chariot
heady zephyr
it's worked well for me so far, but like i said i'm still low heat and i don't have many points in chaos shield yet
shut moth
I got Zeus Shield plus Lightning Flourish, shredded everything.
Zeus Shield can be good at repeatedly applying debuffs like Hangover and Chill as well.
bright mulch
Speaking of zeus, I just dragged a Lightning Cast build with overall crap rng all the way to the final boss, couldn't even get to second phase though lol
Mad I feel lightning cast just isn't worth it even when trying to get boons for it like mroe bounces
The bounce aiming just feels real crap lol, like I'm watching this thing miss other enemies right next to a dude by like 30 degrees
shrewd topaz
Zeus can either be really good or really bad, feel like he doesn't have the greatest synergy with most gods
bright mulch
+6 or 8 or 10 bounces ends up always feeling like nothing
I would rather have the damage cut to be proportional just so I can actually SEE and feel 10 bounces if that's what I'm spending a boon on
shrewd topaz
Takes a bit too much investment and luck imo
bright mulch
Yeah, Zeus attack can feel fine but then the other builds behind that start getting worse by big steps at least for me
Also this may just be a personal play expereince but I feel like I rarely see the zeus boons too lol
That's probably not true though if I were actually like, recording sightings or something
sacred idol
Other than Guan, Chaos, and Hestia, what aspects are generally best/most fun.
soft harbor
Zagreus Sword + all speed stuff 😉
flint grove
prolly achilles in my book
soft harbor
it accidentally makes the sword fun
flint grove
big zoom energy
soft harbor
i like the homing Special bow
flint grove
chiron?
flint grove
ye that one's p fun sometimes
sacred idol
How is it worst at max rank?
soft harbor
i haven't even maxed it yet, it's pretty expensive
with all those arrows it's probably pretty strong though
sacred idol
Oh. I mean, yeah, it's generally agreed on to be a downgrade without max ranks
But with maxed ranks it shouldn't be worse than the others?
sacred idol
Yeah
soft harbor
seems like people like the cast one a lot
sacred idol
-2 versus the base, but it's all homing
bright mulch
Hera bow is pretty fun loading up nukes and then hurling them into a pile of baddies
sacred idol
I tend to dislike casts
soft harbor
yeah that's why I'm not much for the Hera version, but I understand it's appeal
gentle bobcat
I just lost Heat run with "Heightened Security" because of one-shot kill from ||Hades second form fire beams || , is this intended?
sacred idol
Huh. I thought the jars were supposed to be treated as traps, but it makes no sense for the beams to count.
Say something in feedback?
mild crag
Don't worry about spoiling in this channel firstly
And hades laser is not a trap so
I don't know why
Unless you took a lot of damage because you had a cast embedded in you
loud glacier
https://i.imgur.com/vAqNMGq.gifv Best bug 
flint grove
turbid needle
north cipher
So fabulous
dim rapids
how does underworld customs work? must you sell the boon at the stairway room or can you sell it before if you find a purging pool in earlier rooms?
sacred idol
I don't think the purging pool would save you from having to give up one, so you'd just end up selling two?
dense locust
Anyone know the requirements to spawn a legendary boon?
For demeter specifically, but if there's a place for this info on all of the gods, i'd love to see it
sacred idol
Wiki?
dense locust
The boons page just says the legendary boon has specific requirements
Unless im looking at the wrong wiki
sacred idol
Each god's specific page...
dense locust
Aww i see it now thanks
soft harbor
it's a pretty good boon too
dense locust
I like it with the bow, aspect of chiron and frost flourish. Especially against bosses
karmic coyote
@mild crag i just had an eris + hazard bomb earlier, was so excited to try out hazard bomb for the first time so i pick it instantly in elysium, needlessly to say i died
karmic coyote
It was funny and i was on low heat so i didn't mind
sacred idol
Am I the only one who hates the World Smasher shield hammer's loss of block hold?
Sure, it does high damage, but it eats your defense.
karmic coyote
@mild crag there there pat pat
heady zephyr
honestly, the shield's block is its least useful function, considering how finicky the angle is imo
mild crag
uuuuu
sacred idol
Probably
dim rapids
so you can't sell it before if you find a purging pool?
cause it just says "sacrifice one"
sacred idol
You could, but it'd just sacrifice twice, I guess?
dim rapids
that's kinda bad wording on their part i guess...
i thought you could just sacrifice 1 boon before that
sacred idol
ask 'em to be more specific in feedback?
sacred idol
I mean, if there's a problem and you don't tell 'em it doesn't help anyone...
stable onyx
having a run with world smasher cant say i like it much
wish i got the dash attack upgrade lol
sacred idol
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/198553698450800640/673491339006181396/unknown.png I guess the shield of cheese is pretty ok after all
I should have gotten dash attack, knock it off fated
elfin wagon
I have a question, is the first thing sold at Charon's well always something that helps to restore health?
lament coral
damn, dude, you got cold fusion with just the aid?
I've been collecting every Zeus and Demeter I could see and got 0 fusions
main citrus
You only need one boon from Zeus, the one that makes your bolts apply Jolted.
lament coral
yeah, I had it
main citrus
Then it's mostly luck ><
I got like, three duos in the same run
It's super rare and you need to synchro your boons tho
I spent a full run with a lot of Athena/Ares pairings and didn't get their boon
sacred idol
@lament coral I got both lucky and unlucky, I guess. Somehow the call absolutely murdered Hades too.
Also yeah, I had one run with 3 duos, i think?
lament coral
Jolted procs multiple times off Hades' strings
kinda like Theseus killing himself with a mid screen dash when afflicted by duo's jolt
turbid needle
Guys
sacred idol
Does Cursed Blade proc on dash attacks?
turbid needle
Dusa offers me something, Do I accept or not?
sacred idol
Offers what
turbid needle
I don't wanna spoil 😛 People who know what dusa offers will know, she offers a return of wares
lament coral
it doesn't matter
turbid needle
It has no effect? So accepting the offer is always the best thing?
lament coral
I guess
turbid needle
That's great. LOL
sacred idol
Seems inconsistent
lament coral
what, the lack of healing?
turbid needle
Omg lol it was a solid +11, glad I got it back x)
sacred idol
It's not consistent that dash can't heal
lament coral
try putting that in #hades-feedback
sacred idol
I did
lament coral
I don't like CS in general
takes away more HP than Guan Yu
without any of GY's benefits
sacred idol
also, I'd feel bad about taking back those gifts, Dusa is best
lament coral
plus, healing of melee is a lot more dangerous than a ranged attack
main citrus
Harem route best route
turbid needle
Well felis, have you been through Dusa's complete dialogue?
lament coral
ye
turbid needle
Btw! Hermes must be the rarest god right? It's the only good you can't manipulate in spawning
clever dock
i think so, i remember hearing somewhere you get two boons per run?
main citrus
Not really? You get a guaranteed spawn on the start fo Asphodel, and I can find him regularly around there, or even in the final shop of Tartarus
sacred idol
I know how it ends, but Dusa is still best either way
Hermes can spawn more boons for sure
main citrus
But yeah, you can't force a Hermes spawn
turbid needle
But still, Hermes is kinda rare, and a real gamechanger!
clever dock
ya
turbid needle
Yep it's the dodge one
sacred idol
Yeah, he can't be manipulated to spawn, but he is as common as the others, I find
turbid needle
Btw. Is there a cap on dodge?
main citrus
His keepsake is great for speedrunners. Not so much for slow potatoes like me XD
turbid needle
Or a base dodge % that get's increased?
Cause else it's possible to get 100% dodge, does that mean you cant'get hit anymore?
main citrus
Don't think it's even possible because there's less than 100 chambers in a full run.
sacred idol
Nice.
lament coral
nice
clever dock
nice
turbid needle
And you can also encounter hermes giving you arround +30% dodge
sacred idol
doge
lament coral
25% is max
turbid needle
25 is max?
sacred idol
Huh. So how high can you get in absolute terms
main citrus
Well, you can get lucky with Eurydice/Demeter to get the heroic spawn of his dodge boon, but even then, the number of chambers also counts the ones without encounters
turbid needle
But if there is a base value that gets increased it's unlikely to get 100%, but if it's a raw value it's defintely possible
main citrus
So even if you got 70 chambers, it's not 70 encounters.
turbid needle
Lets say 40 encounters
That's 48% dodge?
+25 and you can do the dodge after call? 😄
Im pretty sure 100% is possible, but maybe not constantly
turbid needle
Does a chaos gate not add up?
sacred idol
lmao, imagine literally just watching Hades whiff constantly
turbid needle
Im pretty sure there was another dodge multiplier but I forgot what
sacred idol
Just straight up strolling through his attacks
main citrus
Only encounters add up
sacred idol
"Oh, that's your ultimate, huh? Cute."
turbid needle
No there isnt 😦
main citrus
So adding Chaos chambers doesn't count towards dodge :p
sacred idol
If someone catches a run like that on video or something I want to see it
main citrus
Dodge% speedrun
sacred idol
Yeah, lul.
main citrus
I can see it happen, speedrunners love silly stuff
turbid needle
So heroic dodge is 30% and after call max 48% (It says Heroic is NA but im pretty sure it excists)
sacred idol
Then just... abandoning the time aspect to flex on Hades in the final battle 
main citrus
Especially on games like Hades where you have multiple possibilities.
You can't get Heroic normally, would need to check if it's possible for it to be boosted by Eurydice or Demeter
mild crag
Pretty much every boon can be
sacred idol
fairly sure it can be
Hermes boons are targetable
so that's just a matter of skill and supreme RNG for the sake of memes
turbid needle
I mean, if all you care about is dodge you only need a Call and 2 hermes dodge boons
But you only have max dodge after a call for a short while
so 6 seconds you are unhittable
mild crag
you cant get the dodge boon twice
so you need the post-call dodge, his normal dodge boon, and a stacked lambent plume
turbid needle
Sure you can get dodge after call and raw dodge from hermes
Yeah exactly
And that's only 6 second unhittable
If you fill up your call, cause remember you need to invest AT LEAST 3 boons in sacrifice of damage
mild crag
unrelated but has anybody worked out the arcane art of knowing the hitbox of mistral dash
cause i cant for the life of me work it out
seems so bizarrely random
turbid needle
Oh yeah
mild crag
but it hits like maybe 50% of the time when the enemies are directly in it
sometimes its delayed
sometimes its immediate
turbid needle
Oh I don;t use it that much, I felt it was a bit unreliable
mild crag
when does it deal damage
soft harbor
i think if you get a LOT of demeter boons, she's ridiculously good; but if you only have 1 or 2, she doesn't excel much
Chill is a really nice curse if you're trying to not get hit
turbid needle
lol
sacred idol
I've found it ludicrously easy to hit with Mistral Dash, so much so that it's my favorite
turbid needle
Demeter has some great stuff but
mild crag
well i guess im just doing something wrong
turbid needle
Also someuseless stuff, dash and cast for me are no goes
sacred idol
I don't know why people are having trouble - she's my favorite Olympian by a mile, and super easy to stack Privileged on with that
main citrus
Ice Wine is glorious btw, best Demeter duo for me
turbid needle
Also the shatter legendary is basically a bit useless
sacred idol
I haven't seen Dio in days
turbid needle
Ice wine is great
sacred idol
I miss the guy.
mild crag
most of her boons are great
sacred idol
What?
mild crag
but mistral dash is grade A jank
sacred idol
This is some spicy hot take
soft harbor
i think shatter is really good
sacred idol
Shatter legendary is amazing
main citrus
I was melting things with Demeter/Dio combo with the rail
stable onyx
does gifting people more than once do anything?
sacred idol
It's one of the strongest legendary boons. It can execute Hades.
turbid needle
Yes @stable onyx
sacred idol
I don't know what people are smoking, but they ain't using Granny's power right
main citrus
Yes, some do for now.
mild crag
shatter legendary is overrated
stable onyx
that %10 insta kill is great
rancid shore
I read that wrong and thought 2020 was gonna eat some of us
stable onyx
reminds me of freeze effect from risk of rain 2
sacred idol
Nah. It's a perfectly balanced and strong legendary.
mild crag
its balanced, but it's weak for a legendary
sacred idol
Honestly, I want mistral dash's firing mechanism for blade dash, because blade dash sucks.
main citrus
I wanna try a Hestia Bow run with Artemis and Fully Loaded 👀
sacred idol
nah
soft harbor
when you consider how much damage that amounts to; I think it's real strong
sacred idol
I don't know about you, but an execute that procs on bosses is 👌
Hestia... bow?
Hera?
main citrus
I still need Athena's legendary before I start forcing the boons I really want to lmao
mild crag
it's essentially a 10% damage increase
main citrus
Yeah, Hera, sorry ;v
sacred idol
uh... what
main citrus
Too similar lmao
sacred idol
that's not how math works.
10% of enemy health = 10% of your damage?
C'mon
there's hot takes and there's not getting math
it's -10% health after all modifiers, I think
as in, I think since it calculates off total health, it SHOULD be equally effective with Calisthenics maxed
mild crag
oh sorry my bad buddy
sacred idol
which makes it more valuable, as 30% extra health is a PITA
mild crag
11.1% damage increase
sacred idol
that's a bizarre way of stating it that doesn't really jive with how damage is calculated and rendered in Hades
since +Damage% stacks additively for the most part
mild crag
okay so it's multiplicative
Heart Rend is a 50% multiplicative damage increase on your crits
sacred idol
Heart Rend seems like an outlier
mild crag
it's a 10% multiplicative increase if you hit the enemy down to perfectly 10%
you're not hitting normal enemies to 10%
in fact you're probably killing them before they get a chance to get to 10%
so it's worse than heart rend against normal enemies
and it has limited usage against bosses
sacred idol
Heart Rend also requires a specific duo combo and is dependent on your overall crit chance.
But its calculation simply seems like an outlier
It's inconsistent with how other things calc, I'd say that's questionable
soft harbor
yeah idk if Heart Rend is quite fair to compare against Ice Kill- regardless of it's better or not
sacred idol
Heart Rend may be legit broken, come to think of it.
afaik nothing calculates like THAT
pretty insane math
that said, most Legendary Boons in and of themselves are of moderate power, and I think Poseidon's is possibly the worst? Just a second knockback?
mild crag
it's the only multiplicative bonus in the game yeah
demeter's legendary is better than poseidon's yeah
sacred idol
Out of all of the legendaries I think hers is arguably one of the strongest.
soft harbor
Ares' seems a little underwhelming? but I also just don't like blade rifts
sacred idol
But legendaries in general are often less powerful than duo boons, as far as I can tell - their main advantage is not requiring bizarre, inscrutable combinations of gods to work.
mild crag
I think Ares, Aphrodite and Dionysus's is better
sacred idol
You don't need to pray to the Fates the exact right combination on TWO Olympians rolls
Ares, meh, unless you're abusing Greater Call
Or Hunting Blades as well
soft harbor
his call is the only blade rift I bother to use
sacred idol
but then, if you have Hunting Blades AND Ares' legendary, you've basically won the lottery, enjoy your win
soft harbor
yeah i imagine that's probably pretty fun to play with
sacred idol
Demeter's is simple and no fuss and perfectly heat-agnostic - no matter how much damage you do, it's a flat chunk of health
soft harbor
i have a high opinion of the Chill effect on top of that
sacred idol
and works with the thing you're doing oodles of already
mild crag
Also, I think it's fair to compare Winter Harvest to Heart Rend, since they both require the same number of pre-requisite boons
sacred idol
plus Chill is one of the most fun and generally useful statuses, it lasts eternity and is really strong, although I'm not sure how the effect stacks on bosses
Do bosses take halved slow values or something odd like that?
They're still plenty fast when iced over, even if they're noticeably less so
mild crag
I know other slow effects (Inescapable Blast) affect them to a lesser degree
So probably
sacred idol
like I said, Heart Rend is an extreme outlier, it's probably the strongest boon in the game in and of itself
like, just by its numerical value, because the calc is obviously not... quite right
mild crag
that might belong to either Hunting Blades or Merciful End
sacred idol
Ironically, Curse of Longing is the weakest, lmao
mild crag
curse of longing big suck
rotund girder
I'm pretty sure charm works even on Hades, I've had him stop midway through his laser beam move before
main citrus
I like Sea Storm a lot
sacred idol
Dio's is good, but you have to give up Boiling Blood, so it can't stack on other stuff.
My favorite Duo though? Spent Spirit
mild crag
poor spent spirit catchin some nerfs
sacred idol
what was the nerf?
mild crag
50% -> 30% projectile slow
dense locust
Man, the Rail with aspect of eris, triple bomb, and rocket bomb is a fun time
dense locust
not sure what you mean
The rocket bomb turns the special into a fast rocket
and raises base damage
soft harbor
Rocket + Triple is a fun flippin' ride
sacred idol
I know.
soft harbor
triple in general hard carries
sacred idol
That combo is fun
mild crag
Cluster and Triple are exclusive
sacred idol
But can you get triple with the new Cluster Bom- dammit
dense locust
oh cluster is a boon
sacred idol
No fun allowed :c
dense locust
er hammer?
dense locust
i dont think ive even seen it yet
sacred idol
It can carpet the entire map in status
dense locust
Triple carpet bomb would be op
sacred idol
RIP the thing under
dense locust
it destroyed
sacred idol
Wait. Can you get cluster rocket, or is it also exclusive
mild crag
you can get cluster rocket yes
sacred idol
Yeeeeeessss
dense locust
You fire like 6 rockets?
mild crag
5 but yes
mild crag
you sorta need to be in their face, but if you are
dense locust
the higher base damage
mild crag
its a rocket shotgun
dense locust
Yeah I would love that with all of the combos
So aspect of eris affects cast damage as well?
dense locust
so good
I like making attack, special, and cast all relevant in terms of damage if I can.
and Eris just makes it even better
sacred idol
@dense locust What's deadly flourish again
dense locust
Damage increase and crit chance to special
mild crag
Artemis Special
sacred idol
Oh right. Nice
dense locust
75% damage and 20% crit chance on my epic one
sacred idol
Yeah rocket shotgun on that sounds OP in the best way
dense locust
im blasting 1k+ crits contstanly
soft harbor
holy sh
sacred idol
Strong dong indeed
dense locust
It'd be cool if they implemented an easy way to save the run's build and be able to look at the boons easily
It's fun to share your run's build with others, but it's hard to see what's going on with just a pic of the screen showing the boon icons
mild crag
once you win you can pin boons so they show up in full
dense locust
How do I do that?
soft harbor
beat big boss and then it'll give you a screen
dense locust
omg i just got black out...
This is why this game is so addicting
Does damage cap out at 1k a hit or do they not display numbers over 1k?
Poor hades
@mild crag But is there a way to save that screen and share it so people can easily see the boons along with their effects?
lament coral
F11 for Hades pics
severe brook
does anybody know how to max out the bonds for the Olympian gods?
after a certain point i get the heart with the clock symbol
severe brook
ahhh..thxs @main citrus
sacred idol
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/198553698450800640/673522905518178315/unknown.png I'm gonna have my ass kicked so hard, because I'm at 0 Defiances and with an awkward boon setup, but... hey, the Fates are happy and my coin count rocks
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/198553698450800640/673524216766660618/unknown.png I... how did I win with this mess
Cheese shield is just that OP
turbid needle
Whats the best railgun?
I'm thinking ERis but I never used the weapon so who am I to talk
mild crag
Matter of opinion really
If you like rapid fire on hit builds such as Zeus lightning and poison, eris is best
If you like big hitting single shots for massive numbers hestia is best
If you like intentionally using sub par weapons to your own detriment, zagreus is best
mild crag
After you stand in the explosion of your special, you get bonus damage
turbid needle
Any type of damage?
mild crag
Any damage yes
turbid needle
Also casts?
turbid needle
That sounds good
mild crag
Hestia locks you into focusing on attack
mild crag
But if you get epic aphro attack first boon
sacred idol
Well, not focusing.
mild crag
Then you're doing 300 damage per empowered shot
sacred idol
You just roll a high Attack attack boon, and anything else is gravy
status curses, stuff that makes things vulnerable to your sniper round of doom, whatever
mild crag
Yeah focus your attack, and anything which supports it
The catch is you have to manually reload after every shot
Some people don't like that
turbid needle
I think I wont
But I had trouble liking the adamant rail as a whole so...
Let';s start with ERis
turbid needle
hmm
Mayve I should start with a spear then
Im a bit tired of heat +10 atm
Played so much last couple of days
mild crag
Should play what you enjoy most
lament coral
do you guys play on normal?
mild crag
By the way if you unlock an aspect and quit the game before leaving the room it'll relock and refund your blood
So you can try that
I play on Hell
turbid needle
What's the difference between hell and normal?
lament coral
I was wondering if normal players can do runs at lower than their max heat
mild crag
They can yes they don't get forced into any heat
lament coral
gonna suggest that as a change to hell
I don't wanna have to run the new weapon and aspects at 20+
rancid shore
that's a weird restriction to put
rancid shore
like you get to a point where you can't beat the game and then you're just stuck losing forever :/
mild crag
It maxes out at 25 I think?
I haven't grinded enough to reach it but that's when you stop getting bounty rewards
lament coral
I've reached 20 and there are still bounties after it
mild crag
25
lament coral
thought it maxed out at 20
oblique tusk
20 on hell, 25 on normal
lament coral
I am on hell
oblique tusk
oh whoops
mild crag
You get the same number of bounties but you have to start at 5
So you miss 0-4 of course
Also it's per weapon so you'll be able to use the new weapon at 5 heat
But I do agree with you Zepp
mild crag
There's no real reason to stop people from going back down to 5 heat
Not like you get anything out of it
lament coral
darkness, I guess
rancid shore
ah the most useful resource
lament coral
dapper bobcat
can't you buy diamonds and blood from the vendor?
oblique tusk
but aqua is useless
oblique tusk
and no one loves her :D
mild crag
turbid needle
Poseidon is good for gathering resources !!
oblique tusk
but aqua isn't
nimble cypress
Speaking of bounties, can I view the ones I have completed somewhere? It's hard to keep straight which weapons I've killed which bosses with.
oblique tusk
once you've beaten the final boss, you can
nimble cypress
Ah. Well, time to get good.
limpid vortex
Is there any mechanic in place to increase the likelihood of seeing certain Gods?
earnest compass
giving a god nectar gives you a keepsake that can force the next boon to be that gods, excluding hermes/chaos
also unsure about demeter's trinket
dim rapids
any recommendation for shield builds?
limpid vortex
Is Chaos beneficial like every run?
obtuse tapir
Not really I guess. Some of the times the life payment is just too big (especially if you're going with life draining modes from the blade or the spear) and sometimes the penalty is too absurdly painful.
sand glade
Chaos almost always benefitted me.
obtuse tapir
Personally I avoid Chaos from around chamber 20 or so
sand glade
I almost always make a pit stop