they are, as is, as they currently are
#h1-builds-and-combat
lofty totem
but you can find the now incompatible ones
and if you do it unlocks that functionality that was removed or cancels that drawback or mitigates it
Imagine combining triple shot arrows and double shot
Explosive spear and bouncy spear
fading sandal
world splitter and flurry strike
pure junco
The Daedalus have small disadvantages, and only sometimes, I don't think it should be changed. (If that's what you were talking about)
lofty totem
I think they should have disadvantageous but if you find a second hammer later, one of the options may have a synergy with your first hammer and it will mitigate or remove one of the drawbacks that makes them otherwise incompatible
mild crag
i think it gets too complicated if you try to make them all compatible
like piercing fire and explosive fire
what happens there
lofty totem
It explodes once for every impact
mild crag
that's so broken
lofty totem
Or maybe
it explodes at the end
and you have normal impact damage
for until then
azure bone
then its bad at close range
mild crag
then the explosion is useless
lofty totem
Not all synergies are 100% upgrades
pure junco
^
mild crag
i dont think theres any problem with incompatible upgrades
azure bone
Imo I prefer there being exclusives
that way they can be more broad with the changes without worrying about some of them being bad for overlapping reasons
lofty totem
which one is chiron
azure bone
The auto-aim special
mild crag
uhh
azure bone
No it wouldn't
mild crag
no
lofty totem
the arrows carry on with wherever they were going
It may not be a good synergy
but itd work
azure bone
It'd be worthless
lofty totem
Not all things should always be a good pick
azure bone
And it'd be kind of upsetting
mild crag
that sounds like programming work that they dont need to waste their time on
azure bone
For the hammer it should be
Also that
Hammer is always an upgrade
Even if its not an 'ideal' upgrade
lofty totem
Well you have 3 options
azure bone
its always an upgrade
lofty totem
just pick a better option
azure bone
Yea except when you have heat and you dont
And, it still would take the place of an actual viable choice
mild crag
there's already upgrade which break stuff and need to be removed
azure bone
And require extra programming to make functional
lofty totem
Theres always gonna be bad items
mild crag
its not a good feeling to be offered flurry strike with hades aspect
why would we increase the bad feelings
azure bone
Wait you can get flurry strike with hades aspect?
mild crag
you can
azure bone
Yea thats def a bug lol
lofty totem
because you would even more so increasing the good feelings
azure bone
NO you wouldn't
lofty totem
Triple shot and double shot
trim coral
what does "bond forged" mean
trim coral
i just did it with thanatos
lofty totem
those would be amazing
azure bone
Yea, they'd also be impossible to balance
lofty totem
flurry strike and chop
trim coral
can i still do it with megaera
lofty totem
its already balanced as is
azure bone
They'd all be horribly broken combos requiring two comboes
mild crag
also, each upgrade is coded as a different weapon
azure bone
You seriously don't think explosive + bouncing spear wouldn't be broken?
lofty totem
Whats wrong with having a very very hard to get combo
that breaks the game
Seriously
azure bone
Its not hard to get with rerolls at all
mild crag
lol
lofty totem
tell me why thats a bad idea
azure bone
You can get double hammers so easily
mild crag
boom broken game
azure bone
Yea viscious cycle and hunting blades need hella nerfed
imo
But people don't like seeing the word 'nerf'
Shield too needs some kind of blocking nerf
serene nexus
Got my second non-hardmode clear on 3 heat... you know what I think that I'm going to stop trying to force a certain build and just go with the flow.
mild crag
@trim coral yes you can btw
azure bone
Going witht he flow is way more fun. I do grab god-boon items still but mostly so I can get an athena deflect somewhere in my build before elysium
lofty totem
Look, if you look at any other successful rougelike, broken combos exist and are more often then not incredibly hard to get. It would be incentive to play the game to maybe find one of these combos, cause once you do its really fun. I know Hades is probably the most polished rouge like period but I dont feel this game should be an exception to a beloved occasion that happens to all the other rouge like games
azure bone
There's broken combos in this for sure, tons of them.
But having a broken combo from just two things is a bit excessive
Two hammers would be utterly broken if rocket spear + bouncing spear were combined
lofty totem
Broken combos in this game arent too much better then a mediocre build
mild crag
i dont think broken combos are bad
azure bone
The broken comboes in this game are largely difficult to get, requiring duo boons or legendary boons most of the time
mild crag
have you actually used hunting blades
azure bone
And not guranteeds
mild crag
or chiron special with unhealthy fixation?
lofty totem
is that they are extremely rare
azure bone
ALso I don't think he's used hunting blades if he says that. It literally kills hades in <60sec
lofty totem
hunting blades?
azure bone
And hammers aren't rare which is why its a big deal
lofty totem
the cast?
azure bone
Yes the cast
azure bone
Viscious cycle = ares blades deal 1 more damage per tick
azure bone
Hunting blades = last longer, home in on targets
lofty totem
I prefer other casts to get them stuck into enemies
azure bone
Combined you just toss out three of them and hades just dies
I'm glad you prefer something and are trying to argue something isn't broken despite having not used it.
mild crag
also how is this not broken https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS7cL384D_M
lofty totem
believe me
Ive had builds that instantly brought minotaur to half health
in one shot
azure bone
Yes there are good builds, but a lot of good builds require a lot of things interacting
obtuse ravine
hahaha the chiron charm. gotta love it
azure bone
The issue with hammers being the source of broken builds is that you can so easily get two hammers
lofty totem
Diseenith, what if the chances of getting these two very well synergizing hammer upgrades
was like
mild crag
that sounds a lot better than "mediocre builds" @lofty totem
lofty totem
much lower
azure bone
Once you have fated authority you can reroll to get more hammers
obtuse ravine
i almost got there, but instead I had a Chiron poison
instant 8 stacks with the low tolerance duo
lofty totem
you cant get more then 2 hammers
obtuse ravine
i think I got the special to 16 per tick
pretty nasty ahah I just needed to kite well enough
lofty totem
I just want them to merely exist as possibilities
lofty totem
I dont think they should be common
obtuse ravine
yeah 16 per poison 😂
azure bone
I think its ok to have exclusive hammer upgrades. Lets them go more wild with the upgrades (like rockets)
Because if none were exclusive they'd have to carefully make sure every interaction isn't game-breaking
lofty totem
Define gamebreaking
instantly killing everything
or crashing your game
the latter I would understand
azure bone
Idk bouncing rocket spear instantly killing everything from the first act with double hammer
lofty totem
the former, it already exists
lament coral
is there something wrong with World Splitter?
lofty totem
Remember that bouncy spear does 30% of the total damage
it wouldnt even be that busted
lament coral
I seem unable to interrupt the exalted with its attacks
azure bone
Uh
obtuse ravine
oh. is that how bouncy spear works? lmao I thought it got stronger with each bounce by 30%
mild crag
@lofty totem it increases by 30% each hit
azure bone
Yea its 30% more damage per bounce
mild crag
so 100, 130, 160, 190
lofty totem
I didnt know this
mild crag
@lament coral i think some of their abilities may be uninterruptable
azure bone
Piercing shot + explosive shot on rail would be exponentially more powerful. I mean sure I don't mind hestia hitting for over 10k a shot
lofty totem
So how about this then
pure junco
With bouncy spear you don't have to hit an enemy.
azure bone
See then you'd be changing the way boons function after getting one based on a pervious
azure bone
which is different from hwo the entire game functions
as it stands all boons do as they state all the time
mild crag
why do you dislike the exclusivity so much anyway Xtra
lament coral
Kinda wish it was explained in the game that some of exalted's stuff can't be interrupted
lofty totem
No other rouge like has any type of exclusivity
lament coral
thought something was bugged
mild crag
well its a different game
azure bone
And its a very well polished one at that
lofty totem
This game, like all new games really, should look at the successes of similar games
azure bone
And it does
lofty totem
this game is not an exception
mild crag
besides in dead cells cant you only have one kind of attack
azure bone
^
mild crag
in issac certain upgrades replace other upgrade
lofty totem
I havent played dead cells
lament coral
ugh, Dead Cells
mild crag
you can only have one active in isaac
mild crag
well why cant they stack huh
azure bone
Ok but, you don't need to completely copy other games. Having exclusive upgrades is perfectly fine
It lets you wildly alter gameplay :P
lofty totem
Im not saying to copy paste stuff
azure bone
also its obvious you'll never really provide an actual argument at this point so I"m going to go back to playing <_<
lofty totem
?
mild crag
isaac was also super glitchy and they had to rerelease it lol
mild crag
oh okay
lament coral
wasn't Rebirth on consoles?
lament coral
that was the big reason, why it was moved from Flash to C++
frail vector
CAN you only get two hammers per run?
frail vector
damn
small belfry
i wonder if you could change that
lofty totem
through modding anything is possible
lament coral
so it could be deployed with relative ease anywhere, same reason Mincraft's Bedrock Edition exists and is on C++ instead of Java
lament coral
pretty sure it was 2, and Rebirth was more than that
lofty totem
I mean they have sound guys and animations but like
programming and actual think tanks
was just edmond
mild crag
we should get back to the hades topic i think
but either way you should put it in feedback
lament coral
I guess you didn't actually watch the credits
you might be confusing BoI with Super Meat Boy
spare cobalt
There's a few prominent single dev indie games, but BoI isn't one of them. In Hades, item exclusivity allows them to make effects that differ in significant ways without having to deal with them conflicting, canceling each other out, or giving an easy path to an overpowered run. You might note that in BoI it's common for items to interact in a way that makes one of them have no effect whatsoever. Or, y'know, make the rest of the run a cinch. That can be fun in its own way, but Hades, from what I can tell, prefers a more controlled environment and difficulty curve.
lofty totem
I personally dont think a rouge like should take it's self so seriously when it comes to things like synergy
the most that happens when a very rare interaction occurs is that the run is now free or the run is now effectively over
Whats lost? a little bit of time
nothing more
A rouge like has the ability to balance like this
A rougelike can afford to have gameplay outliers
where one run is so bizzare in a good or bad way compared to the typical run
Hades already has this but its not that bizzarely interesting
You can get a build where you can instantly clear any room, but it takes a while and its multiple instances of very good rng
but theres no negative opposite where you say to your self "welp ive effectively ended this run by picking this up, stupid mistake wont happen again"
I mean you have chaos boons but those dont change significantly much, save maybe if you took a take more damage from traps or your 50% slower boon that would be active for a boss, but even still you can very easily work around that
turbid needle
I actually do like the idea of chaos boons doing more than buffing your damage/health/ammo/ressource gains, at the cost of reducing those momentarely. The idea's there, but there might be room to do more.
like yeah the only ones that are interesting are the movement speed/trap damage ones
spare cobalt
Chaos boons could stand to have more interesting/gameplay-altering effects, yeah. Straight statistical buffs are good but not interesting.
lofty totem
I absolutely agree
You could even do inverted ones
where your powered up for x number of rooms
but afterwards have a permanent debuff
the buff would have to be absolutely massive
turbid needle
Maybe they could give some of the heat mechanics effects ?
azure bone
Chaos boon debuff: "Every room has 3 elysium shields for next 5 encounters"
lofty totem
oh dear god
azure bone
Next room: Middle Mangement Barge
lofty totem
Not sure if its just me but middle management and the boss buffing ones are easiest to me
wispy wagon
You ride on the barge of death for 3 rooms
turbid needle
Like legit legendary chaos boons with some of the heat effects as a cost could be neat
azure bone
I want a pact that scrambles the rooms
Like you'll get random enemies from other acts
spare cobalt
I'm fine with more controlled boons and interactions in a large part because of the ARPG focus of Hades. You already have a lot of variance between weapons and aspects, and the focus is as much on mastery of those elements as it is on increasing your power through boons, hammers, and so on.
lofty totem
A chaos boon where it has no lasting effects but your just teleported to a random room
could be on the next floor
could be encounter one
Could be straight to hades
native ether
alrite ill tell ya why this is a bad idea lol:
Remove exclusivity between Hammer boons, meaning that every combination between hammer upgrades that is currently impossible would now be possible and have more specific interactions. This would take a bit of time to program in and some combinations may be busted or underwhelming, but it's rather anti climactic to disallow a possible synergy from even existing. For example, imagine Triple arrows and double arrows leading to x6 arrows, you could throw on a small damage penalty for this type of thing. Imagine Explosive spear throw and bouncy spear throw, where the penalty could be that the bonus bounce damage is removed etc. All things should be able to synergize
Remember when Heavy Slug and Infinity Chamber could be combined together? Yeah imagine being able to spam 80 damage shots by rapidly clicking.
Now ofc that's not the case anymore, and heavy slug got grandfathered by Hestia aspect, but there's no way in heck that say Flurry Fire and Infinity Chamber combined together wouldn't be absolutely broken beyond belief.
turbid needle
I mean, nothing prevents you from having the cost of the chaos boon be a lot more varying, for the hell of it you could keep the rewards the same
Because as of now, it just ends up being binary a lot of the time
native ether
not to be rude, there was a (very brief) time where hammer exclusivity didnt exist and it led to some wildly broken interactions that no one was really prepared for.
lofty totem
Kasumi, it could be similar to a Duo boon where you have a unique combination effect
and not just putting them on top of each other flat
You'd have to individually balance each interaction
if it were to be polished
spare elk
It was fairly recently that I got flurry fire and infinity chamber I think. Got seeking arrows on top of it at it was pretty bonkers
turbid needle
The idea sounds neat, but I just think i'd be a logistic nightmare to manage, because each new combination that has been removed would have to be rebalanced, which would be hard because they would be really too powerful or straight up non-functionnal
native ether
It would be a logistic nightmare and it would also be straight up impossible imo in many situations
e.g Flurry Blade and World Splitter
mild crag
each hammer upgrade is already programmed as a new weapon anyway
lofty totem
I mean itd be world splitter but
turbid needle
So apparently that was a swear word lmao
lofty totem
fast
native ether
or Flurry Fire and Spread Fire that would be a bullet hell nightmare
That already exists and its called Hermes Attack boons though
turbid needle
And likely too powerful
native ether
The point of Flurry Blade though is that it specifically only uses the first 2 swings of the sword and the World Splitter only uses the chop.
Making one or the other faster is more gimmicky than "actually changing how the weapon plays"
mild crag
Deadly Thrust only uses the last stab too
native ether
My issue with that is the upgrades themselves don't mesh cleanly together well in a way that would actually be fun
Deadly Thrust doesn't remove the combo though afaik
or does it?
turbid needle
Nope, keeps the rest of the combo
astral fjord
is middle management and extreme measures only supposed to apply 1 heat?
mild crag
no i mean flurry and splitter dont even have the stab
native ether
Wow, shows you how much I take it
yeah, which is why the boon gets gutted from the pool
turbid needle
I took it a few times with nemesis blade, crit's fun
native ether
Some exclusivity options are there to prevent the game from just being a mess of options though lol.
mild crag
(i'm agreeing with you by the way)
native ether
(i know :p)
Middle Management should apply 2 Heat afaik, Extreme has multiple levels
and applies more per each level
astral fjord
It only applies 1 for me and it's flat
native ether
Extreme should be 1/2/2, Management applies 2 flat I believe
astral fjord
wuddaheck
lofty totem
correct
native ether
screenshot your pact?
astral fjord
native ether
Pump Extreme Up a couple notches, should see higher heat per the next levels (2 instead of 1)
but Middle Management is weird
You sure you're on the most up to date version of the game?
native ether
Looks like your game might be out of date. I recommend checking that you're on the most recent version of Hades.
astral fjord
i mean its not updating when i launch it
native ether
there's a way to force a check for updates on epic and/or steam right?
whats the number in the top left corner of your screen, the V.0... number
astral fjord
0.23617
lament coral
23932 is the latest
turbid needle
^
astral fjord
pog
lament coral
are you on Steam or Epic?
astral fjord
anyone know how to force update on steam?
mild crag
try verify game cache
astral fjord
doing that rn
lament coral
are you in offline mode?
astral fjord
nope
lament coral
when was the last time you played?
astral fjord
earlier today lol
lament coral
wow, that's really weird
turbid needle
He kinda just shared a screenshot yeah
serene nexus
I take everything bad I said about Hestia aspect back... it's amazing
lament coral
usually the game won't even start if there's an update pending, you're forced to download it
astral fjord
yeah that's what i thought too 🤔
native ether
also @mild crag what was the 40 heat build you used in your meme video
astral fjord
woop, 300+ files failed to validate
native ether
im looking into getting back into high heat runs again, figured that might be a good starting point
lament coral
astral fjord
i wonder why 🤣
native ether
(ping me with your response)
lament coral
has anyone managed to do a 32 heat run yet?
native ether
because im the first person to have ever cleared the game at Skelly Statue 3 Heat with the Rail and I need more bragging points :p
native ether
(back when the game ended at Theseus and the run was 120 Heat, old Pact)
lament coral
are there vids? could you link me?
lament coral
on the latest version, I mean
pastel jolt
yup
native ether
Pact used to work on a max of 200 heat system
You gained Heat for beating the Hydra as well, which you spent on the pact.
astral fjord
oh so they flattened it?
pastel jolt
for example
mild crag
My 33 heat run is on my pc at home not uploaded 
astral fjord
oh what so its diffferent
mild crag
@native ether I think it's just hestia goodstuff
pastel jolt
man. that was a good-looking menu.
astral fjord
you got bonus darkness???
mild crag
Aphro attack and special with athena dash
native ether
yeah per heat point
pastel jolt
pour one out for the old pact interface it was good :(
native ether
no bounties though
Basically every 5 heat back then is 1 Heat today. So 120 Heat is equivalent to 24 Heat today.
pastel jolt
yeah this was before the expanded currencies
astral fjord
I wish that in high heat meta currencies are less common
lament coral
ah, they must've moved the darkness bonus to weapons after this
native ether
Old Pact was harder in weird ways though, you could max enemy damage at 600%
astral fjord
but that would alter balance quite a lot
astral fjord
probably not from the witches?
pastel jolt
nope, dark thirst has always been there
native ether
This was the twitter post I made back in the day
https://twitter.com/PearUhDox/status/1152073383024087048
lament coral
Elysium witches throw clusters though
native ether
Nah, it made Theseus do 120 damage though
That was fun
This is also why I will praise Poison until the day I die
Poison carried me to my best victory.
pastel jolt
it also made brimstones do ridiculous damage
mild crag
Low tolerance 
native ether
Yeah it did. Myrmidon used to be top tier cause blocking 20% of damage from 600% was insane
lament coral
oh, I had a question about the bracer
native ether
The game was literally unplayable at high heat in Styx though lmao
Imagine Poison doing 600% more damage
lament coral
do you take 10% extra damage if you're hit with an AOE?
native ether
and every attack from Hades was a lost death defiance
lament coral
since it technically hits all around you
native ether
Depends on if you're facing the center of the AoE or not afaik
it treats the center as the origin, at least it does for the rail special on shield enemies, I would think it would be the same
that or there's no penalty because its an AoE hit
lament coral
so if I stand in front of Hades as he does his spin, the damage will be reduced?
native ether
I believe as long as you're facing Hades when he spins, the damage should be reduced
lament coral
cool, thx
native ether
since the spin attack would be originated from the "center" of the attack which would be his position
but cant confirm it myself
mild crag
600% damage sounds like a good reason to take the new acorn keepsake lol
lament coral
I really wish Pact didn't limit you to 2500 darkness and instead had a more liberal mirror limit and a separate Death Defiance limiter
that's my biggest regret with starting on Hell
lofty totem
It should be percentage based
if you have over max darkness then it should be percentage based off of whatever value is max utilized darkness
mild crag
just make it 5000/4000/3000/2000/1000 instead of 2500/2000/1500/1000/500
even 2500 is more than enough darkness for a good run tho tbh
take 2 DD and then you can have basically every thing else that matters
you just dont get boon rarity or fated authority
lament coral
what is the purpose of the mirror limiter? To reduce the amount of Death Defiances you start with and the boon rarity options, right?
lament coral
because you're gonna take the HP, the cast damage
mild crag
depends what you're using
if im using hestia ill take boiling blood for example
but if im using eris ill take privileged status instead
mild crag
sometimes you cant afford it
since after taking a DD, boiling blood and an extra cast you're a lready nearing 500 darkness
so i think i take 25% in it for hestia?
i cant remember
exactly what i take
but i didnt have enough darkness for 50%
lament coral
really? you pass up on 50 HP?
lament coral
but that severely limits your Chaos options
mild crag
because i dont take shadow presence or boiling blood
i always take dash and one DD
and 50% status for eris
since i always play status builds
lament coral
I see
mild crag
the health one gets really expensive
frail vector
do you get the doom bonus damage when you use the duo boon with Athena? The one that increases Doom time by .5 seconds
mild crag
sure do
frail vector
oh hellllll yeah
mild crag
(as far as i know)
lofty totem
I would sooner utilize every single pact modifier then limit the mirror
I hate the mechanic
astral fjord
I still dont understand how impending doom works
mild crag
yeah i know what you mean
astral fjord
So its 2 secs to proc with impending doom?
mild crag
it sounds like it'll do another one
something like that
just add the duration impending doom says to the oriignal one
idk how long it tkaes to trigger usually
astral fjord
Oh yas
frail vector
Just tested, you do get the damage @mild crag
astral fjord
I once got that build
mild crag
mercifully end them
astral fjord
What duo boons do you guys like the most
mild crag
low tolerance, curse of longing (even tho its weak) and spent spirit are what i normally like to grab
dense token
heart rend, merciful end, sea storm
dense token
what's low tolerance
mild crag
poison stacks to 8 on weak targets
dense token
oh
native ether
Low Tolerance is the Aphro Dionysus boon. ^
dense token
that one
native ether
so much extra damage
dense token
poison 🤢
astral fjord
I've been gunning for that in my chaos aspect runs but to no avail
native ether
Never knock poison
astral fjord
Looks strong on paper tho
mild crag
imagine saying that about poison while using that avatar @dense token
dense token
psh
astral fjord
Weaken bull rush plus poison shield throw
native ether
Poison is so strong it carried my 120 Heat run and got the first high heat clear on the Adamant Rail in all history. Poison is busted. Poison is amazing. Abuse it.
dense token
never seen poison do decent dps
native ether
Never played Spread Shot Dio Rail I see.
Or combined it with the 60% bonus all damage from Eris aspect, or Thanatos Butterfly
dense token
why take poison when you can just take doom
mild crag
more like the other way around
native ether
Because Doom is slow and honestly does less damage over time
astral fjord
Its still lower dps than curse isnt it
mild crag
i get my poison ticking for like 100 just in tartarus
astral fjord
Doom i mean
mild crag
thats without low tolerance
astral fjord
Huh
native ether
The advantage of Poison is that its easy to apply. You throw it out and forget about it and focus on staying alive. Doom you have to apply on a rhythm and its hard to exploit for big damage.
mild crag
ye eris rail is pretty busted for it too
native ether
Like Spread Shot Dionysus rail, walk up to enemy, shoot it twice. Now spend the next 4 seconds avoiding damage and dodging or applying it to other enemies.
dense token
but it's so slow
mild crag
stack to 8 with a good rarity and level poison with low tolerance
and buff yourself with eris
it shreds
also have bad influence and the one that make poison spread
astral fjord
Does it get buffed with achilles?
mild crag
@astral fjord nah that works differently
astral fjord
Does doom get achilles buff?
native ether
Epic Attack Poison is around 6 per stack, which is 60 per second. Throw Eris on it, and its 60% better at 96. Throw in Butterfly, its even better. Throw in Pressure Points so it can Crit
mild crag
noh i dont think so
native ether
By the way Pressure Points can make Poison Crit
mild crag
and since you have aphro you get +50% from status
astral fjord
Bc hunting blades gets achilles buff wondered if other dots do too
astral fjord
Ye
astral fjord
Got 100+ ticks
dense token
i guess I'll try it out again but it seems like an awful lot of work when 1-2 doom kills most everything
astral fjord
Without privileged
native ether
Hunting Blades is different, think of it less like a DoT and more like an "entity that hits things very quickly over time"
mild crag
@dense token poison just scales better than doom
native ether
Basically yeah
since the cast entity gets the damage buff, the entire Hunting Blade gets a buff
astral fjord
Ye that was nutty
native ether
Once you finally grab Low Tolerance you can make your 6 damage per stack poison do 96 per second without any damage buffs. Specifically, if you get Weak, then you're also triggering Privileged Status whenever you attack.
Poison has better scaling options, every pom gives you at least 1 (the first ones 2) extra damage per stack, each stack hits twice a second, etc. It really just scales better and has better options than doom for the late game.
However speaking of Doom
My third best Duo in the entire game (and the best for lots of weapons, namely sword) is Merciful End
oh dear does Merciful End make Doom very worth it
astral fjord
Ye merciful end on divine dash is nice
native ether
Merciful End and Heart Rend are the best duos for Sword
Poison isn't as good on the sword unless you get something like Double Edge
Then its real good
Poison is best on the Rail. Weakest on anything slow attacking.
Doom however is great. Especially if you're running something like Poseidon Sword and you get a Deflect Cast and Doom on anything else
that's super combo-able
mild crag
if you're using poseiden sword hunting blades might be the best duo
astral fjord
better than chaos poison?
native ether
The special Doom Athena Dash is also amazing
Chaos afaik can't actually buff Poison damage
astral fjord
i mean chaos aspect
native ether
Might be, dunno, never tried Chaos aspect
mild crag
yeah poison is nuts on chaos aspect
native ether
I rarely play Shield. Least favorite weapon in the game.
native ether
Heart Rend is the runner up Duo Boon because its better than the text implies
mild crag
also special poison is stronger than attack poison
astral fjord
which is better rail or chaos aspect for poison?
dense token
doom is still better for shield tho
mild crag
for some reason
dense token
there's a reason the current wr uses it
native ether
Rail imo
dense token
(with merciful end)
mild crag
rail i reckon too
lament coral
shield was my least favored, too, until I invested into the aspects
native ether
Best weapon doesn't make it my favorite lol :p
I find shield play boring and too easy
lament coral
and spent more time with the bow
astral fjord
it's easier to proc bad influence on shield tho
lament coral
now bow is the worst one for me
mild crag
chaos aspect is no doubt the best weapon in the game
native ether
I think the rail can actually out dps the shield if the person using it is really good
cause Eris
mild crag
they need to buff attack poison
i dont see any reason special poison should be stronger
astral fjord
isnt most special damage better than attack
native ether
Given the proper build its skill reliant.
mild crag
most is yeah
native ether
Even with the perfect build I don't think you match Shield dps with Chaos unless you're really good with the rail
dense token
nah given the proper build you facetank everything and it all melts
until you play high heat ofc
mild crag
chaos aspect is both the safest and strongest weapon
im waiting for it to catch some nerfs
native ether
Shield you could honestly be bad with and likely beat the rail's max base damage in most cases
astral fjord
how would you nerf shield?
native ether
I've campaigned for a shield nerf since the 2nd update of the game :p
astral fjord
chaos specifically
mild crag
no idea lul
astral fjord
less shields?
lament coral
yep
mild crag
make blocking damage reduction instead of BLOCK
lament coral
just fewer shields would reduce its DPS
astral fjord
i dont think nerfing the base damage of each shield matters a lot
that's the only way i see it too
mild crag
and let zag aspect have proper block
native ether
- Reduce the Shield's primary base damage to 20 instead of 25.
- Reduce the damage shield special does on Chaos Shields. Potentially have them fade out faster.
lament coral
why would you ever use block then?
mild crag
why does shield deserve to have block at all tbh?
native ether
It honestly shouldn't
astral fjord
cause its a shield
lament coral
Dead Cells does that, btw: you can hold the shield button and it reduces the damage by 75%
native ether
Its the best weapon in the game cause its the most mobile, has a block, and does about equal damage to the sword.
dense token
just buff sword 🙂
mild crag
since it has normal attack and bull rush already
astral fjord
just buff everything else
mild crag
i think it makes it the only weapon with three abilities on attack
astral fjord
and leave my shield be :(
lament coral
exactly, just buff other aspects
native ether
Lots of people have recommended removing the block for a while tbh. Its likely never happened cause SGG is looking for alternative ways to balance the shield while keeping the block
mild crag
yeah its super good for newbs too
astral fjord
i dont think they should tbh
turbid needle
the problem is that the bull rush charge removes mobility
u need the block otherwise ur just a sitting duck
turbid needle
they'd have to buff the bull rush to compensate
mild crag
@turbid needle lol say that to spear spin and bow charge
lament coral
like, the spear has TWO special aspects
grand smelt
So the bow, Lark? And the spear?
dense token
the block should just be 50% damage reduction
candid merlin
What's your guys favourite god for spear? please specify if he's mostly for attack or special ^_^
turbid needle
the bow you can dodge and fire at the same time and it has a quicker draw rate
mild crag
spin attack aspect where you can get a hammer upgrade to remove spin attack 
native ether
Bull Rush at minimum charge is more distance than 2 dashes, it about evens out cause you can tap hold it to quickly get out of danger (and you're invulnerable while dashing minus to things like some shockwave attacks)
astral fjord
spin attack is a trap
lament coral
spin is suicide anyway
astral fjord
takes too long even with quick charge
grand smelt
I mean, there's a reason everyone is like "take flurry thrust"
lament coral
just stand still, that's gonna be great
mild crag
quick spin ye
lament coral
even with the hammer upgrade it's still too dangerous to charge
mild crag
makes it a move you can use
lament coral
the autoattack?
native ether
yeah
mild crag
yes you can take those both
lament coral
I don't like Q without the homing upgrade
azure bone
hestia is really just the bow but better
Instead of casting for half a second
you reload for half a second
lament coral
it's just too hard to deal with groups
dense token
rail doesn't have chiron aspect tho
azure bone
Yea but 150 base damage hestia
dense token
but ... arrows
lament coral
is Hestia better than Eris?
azure bone
I'd say yes in every way
grand smelt
Yeah, no Chiron Aspect means Rail is just Bow but better
lament coral
and how does Hestia work with Infinity?
azure bone
Reload after every shot
grand smelt
Eris increases damage from Zeus boons
lament coral
I tried reloading with Infinity and Eris but it doesn't do anything
azure bone
I feel like they're both good but use COMPLETELY different builds
and play completely differently
mild crag
yeah completely different builds
dense token
eris is better because 60% is absolutely nuts
mild crag
i do think eris is better though
azure bone
the 60% is only additive
mild crag
on a strict tier list sense
dense token
hestia is fun though
azure bone
its just good because it works on things you normally can't buff
mild crag
the 60% is nuts since it lets you buf-
azure bone
like zues stuff
dense token
correct
azure bone
However hestia has such an extremely high base damage it doesn't even matter
lofty herald
probably hestia you aren't trying to hard force q damage as much
and instead can do on hit
dense token
hestia is slow mostly
mild crag
yeah hestia is for hit builds
lament coral
do you just one shot and reload with Hestia?
azure bone
One shot -> reload -> lob Qs -> shoot -> reload -> lob Qs
lament coral
ugh, sounds awful
lofty herald
if you're poor like me and only have the first rank you can still fire normally
astral fjord
sounds like a quick way to get carpal tunnel
azure bone
...how?
lofty herald
could always just bind the two buttons together
lament coral
is the bonus damage amplified by attack % increase? Like, if I get +100% attack damage, does the bonus go from 150 to 300?
astral fjord
this game in general is a quick way to get carpal tunnel xd
lofty herald
that being said i can't imagine it'd be worse than like
lofty herald
sword with hermes
mild crag
@lament coral sure is
lament coral
wow
lament coral
I see why it's popular
mild crag
i think more like
lofty herald
yeah the hestia aspect is base damage
astral fjord
add in dash attack
mild crag
repetitive strain injury rather than carpal tunnel
azure bone
I'm not sure you can dash attack the power shot
mild crag
you can
astral fjord
pretty sure you can
lament coral
I've only been using Eris so far, always aiming for the triple Q
mild crag
+100% damage from artemis dash
lament coral
the rocket actually feels worse than the default Q
lofty herald
repetitive strain injury, funnily enough, is one of the more common causes of carpal tunnel
azure bone
Also the thing I really like about hestia is its damage is so good you can focus on special
astral fjord
so both then? lmao
mild crag
@lofty herald shows what i know about hand and wrist injuries
lofty herald
one is the cause and the other is the symptom
azure bone
So I'll often grab special upgrades like triple rocket. The only non-special upgrade I grab is the explosive shot
Yea piercing is great but imo not as useful
astral fjord
spread fire?
mild crag
dont take spread fire
lament coral
I don't like rocket because I can't lob it over objects
azure bone
Spread fire doesn't work on the hestia shot
lofty herald
spread fire does nothing to hestia
astral fjord
aw i feel like it should
azure bone
Its actually a good thing
mild crag
it used to and it was broken
astral fjord
shotgunning everything close up with empowered
azure bone
I had a hestia spread fire build
astral fjord
seems very broken and fun lmao
azure bone
You'd shoot from range -> dash attack shotgun like twice
lofty herald
it's kinda nice because the hestia gives you range to snipe far away
mild crag
piercing is insane tho too
lofty herald
er, right
lofty herald
having hestia in the shotgun would be nuts
azure bone
He turns around and walks away for a few seconds after each throw
mild crag
also piercing fire is one of the only ways to survive the muderboat fun fact! 
lofty herald
yeah just do bait spear > hit couple times > continue being a coward
astral fjord
yeah but usually i'm low on time when i reach him so waiting gets on my nerves xd
azure bone
I just use the Q spam for murderboat
mild crag
high heat middle management murderboat anyways
azure bone
Yea thats what I mean
astral fjord
look at mr. "i didnt rebind special to rmb" over here :/
dense token
honestly murderboat with hestia is surprisingly easy even without piercing
just dont take tight deadline
azure bone
Oh tight deadline is one of the few ones I wont take
astral fjord
its 5 heat!
lofty herald
murderboat, one of the strongest arguments for poseidon
astral fjord
poseidon is very good even after you meet a boss
dense token
i only take it when I'm low heat (20 or less)
astral fjord
just need legendary
dense token
above that it's hard to get consistently powerful runs
lofty herald
just devote the rest of the build solely to boss killing at that point
astral fjord
yeah thats right u "just" need legendarry for it to be useful against bosses
dense token
though you need it for 32 really
azure bone
I feel like the best way to 'fix' poseidon
is to swap Aphrodite's damage and Poseidon's damage
astral fjord
fair
azure bone
Aphrodite already is considered a bit OP given she has weak status effect
astral fjord
or just buff him to aphrodite level
mild crag
make it increase damage if the enemy cant be knocked back or something
azure bone
That too
lofty herald
weak is just so strong
astral fjord
or make it the highest base damage
azure bone
Weak is just required at high heat
astral fjord
since it's the weakest effect imo
mild crag
if poseiden was the highest base damage it would be bustedddddd (for normal rooms)
and just okay for bosses
azure bone
Yea it would
Poseidon is busted in all normal content
cause it infinitely staggers even armored enemies
astral fjord
i dont like it on sword
azure bone
(which really needs to be on tooltip that poseidon knockback works on armor)
lofty herald
maybe rework the bounty stuff to have more boss killing
mild crag
it doesnt stagger it just pushes back
astral fjord
oh you like hitting the enemy? how about i yeet them across the screen
mild crag
new poseiden level 2 boon
lofty herald
go golfing with poseidon shield
mild crag
Kraken Slayer: Your effects which knockback deal increased damage to bosses.
astral fjord
honestly just replace one of the tier 2s to anything
azure bone
Please add that to suggestions, I want
astral fjord
they are so samey
lofty herald
take out the extra wall slam damage one because it's less cool than getting a surge of water when slamming a wall
serene nexus
fun fact, i just ran with flurry strike on lance and poseidon's attack boon... you can stagger and pin enemies (including theseus) to the wall
lofty herald
like, objectively less cool
serene nexus
doesn't work on hades though but razor shoals and the passion dash helped out a lot
mild crag
ther we go
astral fjord
does razor shoals deal its damage while the enemy is getting pushed?
or do they have to move themselves
mild crag
pushed counts i think
astral fjord
okay its not as terrible as i thought it was
azure bone
to allow it time to damage while being pushed
lofty herald
that's rupture? yeah the dash counts i think
lofty herald
tbh just make rupture last forever but keep the dps the same so it permanently activates half of privileged status
azure bone
Gives a boon
lofty herald
completely fair and balanced idea
dense token
gives you the best boon in the game in fact
azure bone
+2% ambiguity
kindred matrix
o.o?
i didn't get anything
do you give a nector to bouldy as part of
the quest to unlock the companion?
kindred matrix
ah
how do
I unlock the compaions
companions*
im at alock
im at locked heart**
azure bone
get sisyphus to max, talk to bouldy at least once or twice
then talk to hades
then talk to meg
then will get to buy his release for 10 diamonds
frail vector
Man, I really hope they extend the game a little bit
once you really get your build going, it's like you're already at the final boss
lament coral
from what I understood, Hades isn't the final boss
lament coral
his rarity is affected by boon rarity modifiers, like any other god's
atomic panther
Hades is the final boss
kindred matrix
ugh
I have such bad luck
I need one more hermes boon and its the dash slows them
I saw it show up once and I didn't grab it cause itw as garbage
and now I regret it
lament coral
but I thought another level was to be added in the future?
atomic panther
No, four biomes is all they have planned
lament coral
I mean, ok, it could have Hades as the boss again, just a different form
but what is unfinished then? Credits roll?
kindred matrix
wheres the road map
atomic panther
There's going to be more story once you get past Hades, including full codex heart unlocks for every character and story beats including legendary keepsakes for at least one more NPC
mild crag
i think its in game if you click the number of days to the next update
lament coral
Tartarus to Styx does start to feel like a worn loop after you do it for a few dozen hours
lament coral
Elysium?
sand glade
Asphodel
mild crag
biggest arenas probably
azure bone
Its technically supposed to be a meadow
frail vector
next update is 19th
azure bone
Yea, cause the barge is fun
lament coral
ah, right
azure bone
But rest of asphodel is just dull
lament coral
it's just a bunch of enemies jumping around all the time
frail vector
I just really hope we get one more spot after the final boss, I hate not being able to keep using whatever sick build I have
lament coral
maybe we get to fight Mega-Fury-Hydra-Theseus-Bullman-Hades
lament coral
in a combined form, like the dudes from Power Rangers
still atlas
ooo yes
lament coral
furies as the right foot, hydra as the left foot, Theseus as the right hand, Asterius as the left hand, and Hades as the body and head
mild crag
maybe they can expand Erebus more?
lament coral
and they're on a chariot with mounted machine guns that shoot two pronged spears
kindred matrix
zzz
i'm just
running through
to elysium
and seeing double hammer
and if i don'
t get the missing thing
suiciding
lament coral
double hammer?
kindred matrix
2nd hammer from elysium
frail vector
well spelunky and issac have much larger loops than hades currently
half hour runs feel so short
mild crag
often shorter
lofty herald
it's probably the dash tbh
lament coral
I bought it during the winter sale and been playing practically nothing but it
lofty herald
also isaac's design has aged pretty poorly
lament coral
the gameplay is enjoyable, just wish there was more environmental variety
frail vector
For sure, I'm just saying
I don't really mind the environments, I just want to play more
turbid needle
I didn't feel like Spanky had that long a loop.
lament coral
btw, has anyone managed to beat Hades on a new save?
is it even possible?
like, you start a new game and get all the way to Hades
lofty herald
i'd imagine it'd be much easier than a very high heat run
sand glade
Because we enjoy the wine uncle
lofty herald
only real issue is 1x dash
lament coral
no death defiances
frail vector
no DD isn't an issue tbh
only thing that clips me really anymore is armored chariots in elysium
lofty herald
just dodge 4head
but like, there's definitely someone good enough to do that without issue
lament coral
they're easy enough with a ranged weapon, or even a spear/shield
they're pretty tough with the sword though
cause you have to get up right in their grill
frail vector
sword is my worst weapon for sure
lofty herald
dash through > smack seems okay
lament coral
see, I do that, and they turn
lofty herald
or yeet them into traps
frail vector
or just play slower
kindred matrix
I don't mind sword
frail vector
gotta lpay slower with sword, in my experience
kindred matrix
as long as I get athena dash
lament coral
it's easy enough once you get through the armor but before that, it's a slog
frail vector
but I'm only at about ~3 heat on everything
lofty herald
yeah you'd have to dark souls it
the point is that it's very definitely doable (on 0 heat, who knows about hell mode)
mild crag
at high heat sword is poopy
since sword is about being fast and unsafe
and high heat is about how safe is your weapon
which is why chaos shield is completely broken
turbid needle
I used Poseidon with Adamant Arrowhead starts to get 19 and 20 Heat on the sword.
azure bone
Yea poseidon cast builds are the only 'safe' way to play sword
sand glade
I once got the bow hammer upgrade where I didn't have to charge. And, having Chiron Aspect, it was great. Especially since I got the boon for eus' lightning to strike foes whenever I used the (4* arrow) special. (* I got an upgrade for an extra arrow.)
kindred matrix
ya chiron + zeus lightning is amazing
mild crag
did zeus special suddenly start working with chiron special or what
people keep mentioning it
i thought it was rigged to not trigger more than like
2 or 3 times
spare cobalt
I think enemies have a sort of internal cooldown on being Zeus'd by a special.
Never seen it go off more than twice from a Chiron barrage.
lament coral
bow might've been my favorite weapon if I could just start with auto-shot
spare cobalt
Though, to be fair, there's a lot of numbers that move quickly so it's kinda hard to tell.
But the health bar definitely decreases in a chunk from the first lightning bolt then slows down.