The swords strongest and most impactful tool is the special, you want to use it on cooldown in almost every run.
#h1-builds-and-combat
wheat elbow
wheat elbow
You can use it on cooldown with two regular attacks and/or an attack and a dash as filler.
Less if you have faster specials from Hermes.
And even then, using more than 2 attacks is causing you trouble because the third sword attack will apply a knock-back effect, causing you to having to pursue your target.
Causing you to lose out time that you could use to damage enemies.
I am no speedrunner, but there is inherent value in finishing targets off fast. Gives your enemies less opportunities to hurt you.
You can get two amazing special upgrades from the hammer that actually work together contrary to the bunch of sword upgrades that do nothing for each other
unkempt pagoda
ye this isn't what the issue was
wheat elbow
with the only exception being the one that gives your attack a crit chance
for which you have, again
use your special.
It is what the issue was. I stated what I consider to be a fact and you took offense to that.
unkempt pagoda
the issue was that you think i must be doing something wrong because i use my attack more than you do
except... there's nothing wrong in using your attack
wheat elbow
No, I said that "if you swing your sword often, your run must be mediocre and/or you are doing something wrong"
There was a possibility that you were not doing anything wrong from my point of view and just had a bad run,
I had those myself, getting the worst hammer options early on sucks.
Once, I had to somehow engineer a run based on the sword dash attack because that is the card the run was dealing me.
It was fun, but much more cumbersome and irritating to play than a special centric build.
unkempt pagoda
😶
wheat elbow
And in the end, it only took one hammer special update to turn it all around and make the special be the prime attack again.
Again, if you just like to use the attack, go ahead, do it. It is a fun attack to use, the only attack chain we have in the game and while not good, the hammer upgrades for the sword attack are at least fun to use.
But the way the game is right now, the special is simply better and the best ability to build a run around.
We can look at the topic from a numbers point of view or we look at people who did and/or do amazing runs with the sword.
I believe Haelian has done a lot of staggeringly fast runs with the sword, pretty sure he used the special somewhat heavily for that.
Nyancat has a 120 heat clear with the sword, which is more than I can say for myself, ask him what kind of run he did.
latent lotus
is curse of longing as good as it seems? I just tried to force it only picking ares and aphrodite wherever possible and I got ares legendary but could not get the duo. Thing sounds insanse!
gloomy scroll
here I thought the special wasn't very good
and built sword dash atk and won twice in a row
latent lotus
I dont understand what the aphrodite/ares combo does? If something has doom, attacking it with a deflect attack will trigger the doom immediatly? Doom takes like 2 seconds. This does not seem like a good thing?
The ares/artemis duo is game winning if you can get it. Kills mobs and bosses with ease.
unkempt pagoda
do you mean athena/ares?
unkempt pagoda
if you have a foe with doom and you hit it with a deflective attack, the doom springs automatically (and does bonus damage as well)
i believe the combo damage is 90?
wheat elbow
Athena Ares immediatly triggers a Doom Effect present on the target + 90 extra damage if you hit it with a deflect attack.
Aphrodite/Ares makes the doom effect trigger again, but only for 25% damage.
Effectively making it a longer lasting debuff, but for an increasingly weakening effect.
Say you start at 200 damage, next tick is 50, then 12.5, then 3
Usually not as good if you have a build that can just reapply doom constantly but if you don't and/or just don't want to, it is a neat duo boon for keeping two debuffs active on the target.
latent lotus
well I suppose it also keeps the punished debuff active as weak and doom should be enough to trigger it and weak can last a long time. not as good as I thought though if the doom weakens so quickly
wheat elbow
Agreed.
latent lotus
Any advice on strong builds? I have the mirror maxed except for fated authority. All keepsakes.
easiest builds I have discoved is sword special with deflect or hunting blades
I love a poseidon focused build as it wrecks mobs, but it crumbles against hades
cheesiest build to win the game was I had sword, fast attack hammer upgrade and a 25% chance to charm on a hit. I spammed it on hades and it almost was fast enough to keep him permanently charmed and he never attacked me.
wheat elbow
Strong Builds? Almost everything goes for the base game imo.
Understanding how to outplay Hades usually get's you much farther than having a good build.
In terms of builds though, Zeus full build is always nice to get, If you can get jolted and his legendary, you have a lot of damage on your hand.
Hunting Blades imo is only strong if you can also get Ares' legendary.
Many people agree that a merciful end build is very strong. Merciful End is the Ares/Athena duo boon that lets deflecting attacks immediatly trigger doom with extra damage.
Athena/Aphrodite is a very safe yet strong combo that gives you a lot of tankiness.
You can also add in Artemis to that to get ridiculously strong crits.
Aphrodite/Dionysus is a very basic but strong combo together.
Gives you quick access to privileged status, good damage and survivability and a lot of potencial to further branch out.
latent lotus
I might try aphrodite and dionysus build next I see the potential. Or a full Zues. What weapon works best with zues?
I thought the Athena/Ares duo must be terrible, I didnt understand the description properly. So doom is about 80-100 and than an extra 90 combo on top of that. Plus the base attack. I can see why this would be good. Deflect sword is such a good build but using the base sword attack for doom seems weak. Maybe try that build with the shield
Also what are the tips for dealing with hades? I find his second phase easier than his first. He deals more damage but has fewer attacks that are beter telegaphed. First phase, he shields too often, goes invisible too often and I find that if he summons a soul catcher that is just outright annoying. Also his 360 spin attack drives me nuts becuase even with a double dash I cant seem to clear his radius in time sometimes.
stable oyster
Depends on the weapon
If it’s shield I can help
Otherwise I’m not the best source
lost rose
Shield is a solid, safe strategy for Hades - it blocks those shockwaves, and it can help you avoid those high-damage hits
You can also try to take damage reduction / health boosting boons from aphrodite, athena, and dionysus
Broken spearpoint is solid in Styx and can be helpful against Hades too
broken cipher
The beam attack. I have discovered new hatred for it. The cover on the left side of the map, that walled area? Whenever I try to hide in the corner there the beams constantly clip through it at odd angles despite it looking like it ought to be a safe area to stand since there's, well, a wall in front and otherwise inaccessible terrain above. But noooo.
native ether
highly agree with recommending the shield if you're struggling. Its likely the easiest weapon to get effectiveness out of and has the highest defensive capability out of all the weapons.
hollow matrix
broken cipher
I tend to take Drift Dash and when I'm dashing away to get some distance and then end up running right into those beams... it's really just better to hide behind something. XD I need to git gud but that's going to take a while.
wheat elbow
Is Drift Dash the one that gives you Movement Speed after dashing?
I never take it for that exact reason, the extra speed throws me off more than anything else.
broken cipher
Yeah, that's the one. It's super fun usually and it helps a ton in Elysium and for avoiding Satyr poisoning in Styx but not so much in the final boss fight.
wheat elbow
I only if ever take it purposely with the rail. It is a long ranged weapon and that MS boost really helps reposition yourself.
Especialy if you have invigorating blast
latent lotus
@broken cipher I agree , I also use the walls to hide behind to avoid the beams but the cover is not consistent it seems. Beams that should be blocked arnt. I planned on mentioning it as my feedback
stable oyster
General conversation about hades fight: yea that attack is hard to dodge, UNLESS YOU USE SHIELD
Other weapons need a buff
Defensively
latent lotus
what are the dash attacks?
sword - thrusts immediatly
spear- it seems to only work with the spin already charged? no difference with regular jab?
shield - allows you to attack rapidly twice?
bow-after dash the bow charges faster?
Rail- no idea
stable oyster
Spear spin after the dash dosent count as dash attack for boons like hunters dash
All weapons have one but some look no different from normal
These will still benefit from hunters dash
latent lotus
if you charge the spin and then dash with it charged you get the spin attack at your present location and the the palce where you end. Very cool discovery
if you have the spin upgraded to cover a wider area the thing can own half a room
stable oyster
Ok so the old hunters dash used to give you guaranteed crits after dashing, and I have an old vid of the hunters dash spear build where every spin crits for like 800+
latent lotus
okay so aphrodite and dionysus together are great with the rail. Triple weak bombs, followed by max stacks of posion (8 i think with the duo) followed up by a second wave of triple bombs usely does the job
Also do the different wrath guages charge at different speeds. I liked Ares the best since it makes you invulnerable, does loads of damage and lasts a long time. However after playing more and experiencing more wraths I believe the others charge must faster. I got two max gauges of zeus wrath off against the hydra, dont think i have ever done that with ares.
Sadly though I have once again hit the prog stop bug in elysium. Hopefully it resolves itself again
stable oyster
Art has 5
wheat elbow
Athena and Artemis have more charges that take shorter to charge
latent lotus
ares and zues are both four but I still suspect zeus charges faste
wheat elbow
I think that is because his effect goes threw faster while Ares keeps you imprisoned in an underwhelming meetgrinder for seconds per charge
And you can't charge the bar while a wrath effect is active.
woven kindle
Ares call seems incredibly underwhelming, if I'm forced into it I usually use single bars for the impervious to dodge things that are difficult to get out of. Poseidon does so much more damage it seems, and just feels better in every way
atomic panther
With the new Ares legendary, it can get upwards of 60 damage per tick
wheat elbow
But you need to get that first.
And other Wrath effects can be similarily powerful.
Zeus Wrath + Jolted + Splitting Bolt comes to mind.
atomic panther
Has someone gotten an Aphrodite Call crit yet? That's at least 5K damage right there
analog sail
I think I saw a 11k-13k crit somewhere over here around two weeks ago
atomic panther
😃
wheat elbow
14k if memory serves.
latent lotus
does anyone regularly go for revenge abilities they seem very underwhelming to me, your health is limited. taking say 20 damage (10% of your health) to do a once of doom or lightning strike on an enemy for 100 damage doesn't seem worth it. I know ares/zues duo casts them automatically but its just seems a poor trade
broken cipher
I go for vengeance stacking pretty often just for that Ares/Zeus duo boon that will trigger all the revenge effects automatically without actually needing to get hit. It's beautiful.
wheat elbow
I don't purposely for revenge abilities but there are plenty opportunities where they are the things for you to chose.
Say Ares for example, if you have the choice between revenge doom or blade rift related things that you can't or don't want to use, it becomes the natural choice.
broken cipher
As someone that doesn't use god keepsakes often, if I happen to have Ares on a run, I'll either be going for synergy with Zeus or Athena. Revenge is a very reliable source of damage then, especially with Athena's dash, their duo boon and an extra few dashes from Hermes. If Dionysus and Poseidon pop up instead then getting Privileged Status up and running would be the main focus.
native ether
Rail dash attack is literally just firing an extra bullet
That bullet can also be fired while dashing.
Still kinda boring though
wheat elbow
You can make a case for dash attacks having a place with the rail becaue spread shot and heavy slug exist.
What does the spear have to show?==
stable oyster
Rail dash attack should be a gun swipe that knocks enemies back
Allows you to combo into shots as well as reposition enemies into blasts
wheat elbow
I also still would like the R button to actually do something for other weapons as well
native ether
Dash attack isn't fun unless you get 2 specific upgrades that are often not picked due to others being easier to build around.
It exists but it's not like anyone actively uses the tech just because it exists.
The attack damage on the rail is also rather low so without heavy slug a dash based build won't be doing you much good in all honesty
wind vale
the strong build for the rail dash attack is shotgun(= spread fire)
besides the spear every weapon can utilize it to some extend - the bow is basically always working with it on basic attack - the rail with shotgun build - the shield with dashing wallop is a bit less direct but its definitely useful - the sword as the only weapon with a really distinguishable dash attack is sort of frustrating to use but definitely works
naive cobalt
Anybody else think Artemis/Ares is unequivocally the strongest build in the game?
latent lotus
its def one of the best
stable oyster
Athena Artemis and Athena ares are up there
I like Artemis builds bc crit attack + hunters mark is one of the strongest reliable (not involving duos) 2 boon combo in the game
green birch
All the A gods are A tier
latent lotus
there are some insane builds just take a while to find. I am in the fifties on my escapes and only know discovered how good zues can be once you get all his synergies going. Poseidon also synergizes with himself to an insane degree (but his powers suck against bosses which is his downfall.). Athenas deflect dash (with the exposed attribute), combined with an attack that also gives a status ailement creates dash-attacks with the sword or shield that shred and give you a good chance to avoid damage as you do them. Aphrodite/Dionysus combos leave everyone always in the punished state and can wrack up insane dps while giving you a good defence buff too.
Does anyone agree with me that something needs ot be added to the regular cast? I find cast is either my main weapon in some builds or goes unused entirely in others. The regular cast is often weaker than some regular attacks (especially if hammer upgrades are involved) and is restricted by ammo. You can get a fifty percent backstab bonus to enemies afflicted with cast but it doesnt stack as far as I can tell if you stick more casts on them. With enough boons cast can become unstoppable, exit wounds, extra ammo (most of the good buffs belong to artemis) with Poseidon, athena, ares, zeus having strong cast spells. However vanilla cast seems a waste.
wheat elbow
Depends on how you look at it.
By itself? Far away from it.
With certain other boons? Absolutely up there.
stable oyster
Main cast is crazy strong bc of boiling blood, if you aren’t already weaving it into your combos you should be
Best cast upgrade imo is Hermès for this exact reason
A free 50% dmg buff at all times as well as 50 instant burst with almost no time cost due to it being full auto
wheat elbow
I mean, take Lightning Phalanx.
Similar in that they are both based on specific casts, so the comparison is fair.
Lightning Phalanx is better because the required boons are better and/or safer/easier to use.
Phalanx Shot is much better than slicing shot by itself in almost every situation. Zeus' Lightning Effects are powerful by themselves and easy to use while most of artemis' attacks are either weak or unreliable by themselves.
Lightning Phalanx for roomclear is simply overpowered as hell. More so than Hunting Blades imo.
You also have the option to easily branch out into other duo boons that greatly synergize with what you already have.
Lightning Rod and Deadly Reversal, most notably.
latent lotus
I just dont think that something limited to three ammo should be outclassed by the regular bow attack when both are vanilla. Boiling blood is only 50% bonus from behind. Maybe im doing it wrong, I get a decent amount of backstabbing in but it cant be relied on and generally id rather my cast kill something and let me cast again. Punished makes boiling blood a joke.
I have no idea how but I feel vanilla cast needs balancing.
wind vale
boiling blood does not need any backstabs - its a damage boost while your cast is in the target (and you cant get it back)
the backstab thing is completely unrelated
native ether
Cast does a lot of damage and can be buffed pretty easily
Given that there's no "hammer for your cast" it tends to just be a more supporting weapon
low iris
jeeeeeeeeeeeeesus
fianlly did it
won on 120 red skulls
Athena and Zeus call are the mvps
green birch
Nice!!
wheat elbow
Yeah, Zeus Call is amazing. Congratulations
summer root
I bought this game in Epic Store.
How can I work with other PC to progress this game?
I want to share at home and office.
vale sphinx
Savefiles can be copied from /Documents/
Afaik there’s some cloud mechanism now but idk abt it
wind vale
cloud save is not in the game yet it seems, maybe next update(since other games on epic got it now)
ofc its always possible to manually do something like that with cloud storage using the save dir but its probably gonna come anyways
wheat elbow
Why I still would not consider Poseidon to be "good"
the fact that the Beefboy Duo isn't the huge roadblock they used to be makes me feel much better about using him than before.
untold quiver
I like Poseidon - rupture can really help with the bosses, since they are always moving, and if you can snag Premium vintage early you are in for a sweet run
wind vale
cant say it enough - poseidon +zeus duo on fast fire rail is great once you get it(feels really bad before you get the duo tho) and can be upgraded with lots of stuff
(was a suggestion from someone here - and really nice)
other than that i dont see him as a main god for anything
but it can feel good to clear rooms with small stuff with his boon combos(like dashing into the rat rooms and chain reaction kill everything from his boons stacking - just nothing good against bosses)
might also be a good way to get yourself some space assisting another build but i dont really see where
wheat elbow
Zeus/Poseidon Duo Boon doesn't work against everything, bosses included plenty of times, so to me, that one is a novelty at best that I never actively search out.
If they make it so that it constantly works against everyone, it might very well be actually amazing.
Until then, instead of Pos/Zeus duo boon rail attack, you can just go Zeus Rail Attack and have almost the same thing going on.
wind vale
zeus poseidon only doesnt work vs butterfly ball in elysium and the stomper in asphodel
everything else gets hit now
and zeus on rail attack is way too low damage
even with his legendary it never becomes amazing
inland pebble
Zeus is best with a Dash boon + legendary. Of course it would suck if you choose Zeus Special with only one-bomb rail!
wheat elbow
Pretty sure I was it not work against some bosses too.
Zeus on slow attacks/specials is still decent.
Not as balls to the walls OP like Zeus/Rail Attack for example, but still potent for mass decimation.
inland pebble
I found Rail is best if you have 3 bombs + Artemis Special. Holy moly she's OP with that one lol1
wheat elbow
Went for a 120 heat run.
Hades stealthed away on me 10 times in the first phase in ery short timeframes
He was also healing himself and his allies for 300 HP ticks
First one to reasonably explain me how THIS can happen get's a thank you
lost rose
Oof. Looks like it could be a weird boon/pact interaction maybe...did you F10 it?
lost rose
Double oof. Is your pact setup also shown in that video?
It'd be easiest to replicate if we had your save, but at least knowing the pact options/boons you had is better than nothing
wheat elbow
Yeah, I show Mirror and Pact off in the beginning
I am uploading. The video is going online in just a week or so, but I will send you the link to the finished upload via private message once the upload is complete in a few minutes
lost rose
Thanks!
abstract glen
Yep, my recent run had that, and i only died once
wheat elbow
@abstract glen So you beat it? Congratulations on the win
light nova
@naive cobalt @wheat elbow people remember me, that's so cute 😄
i tried to make 155 run but then i... became lazy hahaha
subtle shale
so I seem to be having tons of trouble telling what's even happening on the screen half the time in Styx
like I tried to go sword and I was doing fine until I got a room full of poison enemies in Styx and I lost a life and then half my health bar not really knowing what was hitting me, I'm not sure if I'm just bad or if it's legit hard to deal with Styx as melee
untold quiver
@subtle shale - Styx is hard as Melee, you have to take advantage of dash and knockback more.....Your Dash Attack with sword (as well as Shield) will knockback armored enemies, which can help getting you some breathing room.
latent lotus
does anyone know, one of poseidons boons says your knockback effects also trigger rupture. A vanilla shield attack causes knockbacks. Does this trigger rupture or must it be a posedion boon knock back
atomic panther
I think it has to be a Poseidon knockback
wheat elbow
It has to be a Poseidon Knockbakc for sure, yes.
naive cobalt
Styx is hard as Melee, you have to take advantage of dash and knockback more.
The tiny rats make Styx hard as ranged, too. They're practically a non-issue with the sword's nova or the spear's spin (if you have the faster spin upgrade).
stable oyster
Styx is just hard
wheat elbow
Styx is
atomic panther
Machinegun Aphrodite cast is how I usually get through Styx
untold quiver
@naive cobalt - I usually dash through the little rats if i am ranged......i don't think I've had the misfortune of having a ranged weapon and not having a damage dash.
wheat elbow
Damage Dash feels vital to me.
Should never go without one.
Can even clear the game with one
latent lotus
damage dash, combined with melee dash attacks when the attack and dash create the punished condition. Game winning combo. I normally just trade blows with hades with such a set up and outbeat him that way.
Im trying to get an athena dash with an ares doom attack but cant seem to get the game to agree
subtle shale
I think the other thing that kept killing me in Styx was the traps because the buttons to activate them blend in way more there than they do in Tartarus
untold quiver
Yeah if I can't get Exit Wounds, I want some kind of Doom for Hades.......The Curse of Longing isn't a bad move, although I noticed the doom damage reduces over time that is a bummer but probably too strong without.
latent lotus
Took me a long time to realize this but the traps in tarturis, the one that drop blades from the ceiling are more to help you kill the enemy than to kill you. The trap switch is the one safe place to stand.
untold quiver
@latent lotus - there is a lot going on, so its sometimes hard to see but you can actually see the groves on the ground the blades have cut so you know where they are gonna drop
turbid needle
my god Merciful End + Ares Spear Special + Athena Dash is disgusting
and with mark and deadly reversal I just become flying disaster
wheat elbow
What weapon?
latent lotus
I also finally got mercifull end running with the shield. I had doom on attack, reflect on the dash. A dash attack worked out to like 300 damage a hit. I also got the zeus/athena cast duo. Though I would have prefered aphrodite weak on the special. Im not sure if mercifull end is inflicting punish or if its over too fast.
Also cant tell how merciful end interacts with the ares boon that increases doom damage after an extra 0.5 sec
latent lotus
mercifull end >>>>> curse of longing. Curse of longing is actually terrible!
wheat elbow
What is a suicide build?
analog sail
Lots of revenge boons, mostly
wheat elbow
I mean, I can only speak for myself.
I get hit much more on heated runs than I do on regular runs because there are many more enemies who are all tanky and fast as hell.
Thus, those revenge boons technicly become a lot more valuable.
I prefer to call them revenge counters though.
stable oyster
I call them consolation prizes
wheat elbow
That's harsh imo.
I am actually always pretty glad when I can get Holy Shield.
It#s one of Athenas better boons imo
stable oyster
Yea I just feel sad when I need to use them
Athena’s is definitely best by a long shot
wheat elbow
Aphrodite is also pretty okay.
Ares is probably the worst
and also the one I get the most often.
For one because Ares shows up super often
but also because he has a lot of boons that I tend to avoid.
latent lotus
still havent got holy shield despite trying
I still gont get revenge boons. Without the ares.zeus power that triggers them for free your sinkign a lot of boons into something that requires you to get smacked. You dont have enough health to make it work imo.
wheat elbow
I mean, it is usually not something I actively search out.
Take Holy Shield as an example.
It comes from Athena, who loves to give you useless selections like
Brilliant Riposte, Holy Shield and Safe Footing
with Safe Footing being basically just an insult at this point, nothing more.
What are you going to take from that selection?
latent lotus
sorry i was confused. The boon I really want is divine protection. Dont know if boons are still being playtested and altered but there are more than a few useless ones.
wheat elbow
Divine Protection was Athenas Legendary?
If so, you need Brilliant Riposte.
That is the single only prerequisite for her legendary. Which still makes no sense, by the way, but yeah.
Get something that can deflect, get brilliant riposte after that (increases damage of deflected attacks by 20ish%)
And then it MIGHT appear.
You really never see it because nobody picks up brilliant riposte
because it sucks.
latent lotus
I read gamepedia, found out I need brilliant riposte, picked up for that reason and still never see her legendary. I must have like six athena boons on my last run and still nothing. Chose brilliant riposte as my third boon from her I think.
wheat elbow
Happens.
I have a nice selection of videos where I try to go for Aphrodites Legendary
Only to end up being disappointed constantly.
latent lotus
you run a youtube channel?
wheat elbow
I do run a Youtube Channel.
A small one, 126 Subscriber.
I usually post my videos in #self-promotion if you want to check it out.
stable oyster
You are up to 126? Great job man
wheat elbow
Thanks! Yeah, the family keeps growing slowly, but steadily!
gloomy scroll
126 heat run to celebrate? 👀
stable oyster
one sub = one heat
turbid needle
Three straight gods on a Quick Spin run that offer a Strike boon offer a common and either a Rare and an Epic or two Epics. Ran out of rerolls on this Dio. I wonder what boon he's gonna offer?
Rare Blight Strike.
He's also offering an exchange for Aphro's Aid (got common Aid, Heartbreak Strike, or Epic Life Affirmation). Blood. And. Darkness.
Epic Lightning Strike. This game... I got Epic Jolted immediately following (Asphodel boss shop) and now I'm good.
Skipping two Hydra phases does the body good.
turbid needle
Sooo, Invigorating Blast doubles the damage of the initial blast, too.
wheat elbow
@gloomy scroll I have actually been doing some 120 heat attempts again.
Utter failures.
wheat elbow
@lost rose About the issue we were talkiing about on the weekend, could it be that the empowered Voidstones he Hades summons can heal?
Seen a video of someone else who also had that happen to him as the Voidstones were casting their shields.
proud storm
latent lotus
@turbid needle how did you skip tow hydra stages? youd have to do an insane amount of damage
wheat elbow
Finally
another 120 heat clear.
Needed to do that again because @covert groves safefile did not have that, had to earn it back.
Also, i learned something new today.
Eye Of Lamia can drop HP snacks
from Hades' destroyed vases.
gloomy scroll
Cool, makes sense I suppose because iirc the player can also ‘kill’ them. I would imagine the same applies to the boiling blood projectiles?
wheat elbow
I think it would but I haven't seen it.
lost rose
@wheat elbow yeah, I replied to your post on reddit!
wheat elbow
Meanwhile, I am just glad that I won't have to do heated runs for another four weeks or so.
God bless
stable oyster
But heat is optional!!!
hearty pilot
but s k e l l y s t a t u e s
stable oyster
But c a r e f u l y t u n e d d i f f i c u l t y
hearty pilot
wheat elbow
Bragging Rights too
stable oyster
Meh bragging rights ok I guess
wheat elbow
For me it is also being on youtube now.
stable oyster
That’s fair
wheat elbow
Gotta show my subscribers something impressive every now and then to keep them whelmed
stable oyster
I love the word whelmed
wheat elbow
Wish I could take credit for that one, but
it is a Young Justice Reference
(which you should watch if you haven't, one of the best DC-related shows by far)
stable oyster
Ok so the there are people who are making a race format for hades speed running, and they are going to need people to test it
And I was thinking
We disagree on a lot of boon choices
And we both (technically) have YouTube channels
Would you like to do some chill races sometime
stable oyster
I scared of Haelian
wheat elbow
Good
stable oyster
We could do some sort of tournament
stable oyster
Yea
green birch
If you both use the same save file that hasn’t been modified wouldn’t that give you the same starting seed?
stable oyster
I think so
Unless we change keepsakes
Or weapons
I’m also going to request that we use the format where you do all 6 Styx paths regardless of when you get the sack
wheat elbow
I am pretty mediocre at speed running, so I will probably end up losing.
stable oyster
Don’t worry Im not that great either
Unless it’s 200 heat
@ripe iron you want in on this race thing
covert grove
@green birch We can start with the same savefile/seed but chances are they will quickly diverge within the first 5 or so chambers. Still not a bad idea just so both racers start off the with same hammer/boons.
@stable oyster I think for a race format doing all of Styx is a good idea, the time difference is a lot more than getting lucky with a fountain room
stable oyster
I think using the same seed only works if everyone uses the same keepsake and weapon
Might not be worth it if it’s not a preselected seed
covert grove
Ya probably not since the racers may want to use different weapons. What about heat options? Using Whipped Frenzy gives a distinct advantage
stable oyster
Idk
covert grove
Could just take a vote as to whether to use it or not beforehand
covert grove
Hmm it's true it's quite risky with a blind run, so maybe it's ok?
wheat elbow
I'd say it's better without.
And I think it'd be better to not care about seeds in the first place.
As you guys said, it is going to diverge very quickly anyway.
covert grove
Indeed, races might be best with 2 or 3 runs in a row also
wheat elbow
Also, keepsake choices are a big point of what makes a players playstyle his own.
wheat elbow
Oh yeah, @covert grove, got all the keepsakes maxed out again.
What do you mean by that?
I'd say all keepsakes are fair game at any point of the game.
covert grove
@wheat elbow Why bother with that Dionysus keepsake? It belongs in the cabinet
wheat elbow
Because Dionysus gives you the most amazing runs.
stable oyster
Abort
wheat elbow
Ah, that's what you mean.
naive cobalt
I've started taking the coin purse into Tartarus instead of the cosmic egg. I got sick of inconsistently encountering Chaos, and 200 coins is always at least a little useful.
stable oyster
Abort, haelian
wheat elbow
Why would you abort Haelian, he is charming.
covert grove
Lovely
wheat elbow
A delight to have around!
grand patrol
hmmm lets not abort anybody in here thanks
wheat elbow
And yeah, I agree on the cosmic egg.
I tried to runs recently, did not see CHaos first floor.
stable oyster
I forgot a comma
wheat elbow
Tried it for some heated attempts, same case there.
BUT I'LL BE DAMNED HE SHOWS UP IN THE FIRST ROOM EVERY TIME I THROW THAT STUPID EGG BACK INTO THE DRAWER!
Every
goddamn
time
grand patrol
they love messing with people dont they 
stable oyster
I mean its like 7 hp at the start
grand patrol
uhhhh 21
stable oyster
Not that bad
grand patrol
it was upped 😂
stable oyster
Same thing
grand patrol
hjgvhjfhjfhjfhj
stable oyster
You get + 6 from healing
grand patrol
🤔 6?
stable oyster
3x2
wheat elbow
From the passive chtonic healing
grand patrol
ahhh
ripe iron
@stable oyster yeah!
stable oyster
Sweet!
terse tiger
Hey where can I find the latest roadmap? I'm not at my computer so I can't use the normal link. Is it online anywhere?
wheat elbow
IU think it is only ingame
errant narwhal
I don’t think it is, no :(
terse tiger
I'm just starting to get that itch! We are within a month and I like to speculate what will be changed/added.
wheat elbow
We are getting one more weapon at some point, one more character at least, something something about Items having a couple more long term uses, especially keys and ambrosia bottles
the whole character buy friendship with alcohol system is still being worked on.
Doesn't mean that those things will come in the next update though, keep that in mind.
I think we will get a couple more duo boons though.
Getting close to having a duo with every god
for every god
which will be amazing.
Poseidon needs a Duo Boon with Ares, Athena and Artemis. That should be doable.
I think Zeus already has fourish and is only missing out one with Aphrodite
(which should totally be called love and thunder unless Marvel has the rights to that)
No, wait, Zeus has 5 already, right?
Lightning Rock, Scintilating Feast, Sea Storm, the Zeus/Ares one and Lightning Phalanx
Yeah, he is only missing one with Aphrodite.
Artemi8s only misses one with Poseidon and Dionysus if memory serves.
stable oyster
Drunk hunting sounds like a good idea
latent lotus
Im very curious about the next weapon. Not sure whats missing
sword- basic melee, 360 special , no range at all(Thrust on dash)
shield- unique defence, good melee, decent range ricochet (double attack on dash)
Spear- weak jabs, strong 360 spin, unique range attack that triggers backstab (wierd dash attack)
Bow- Strong main ranged attack, multi special good up close and good for mult triggering curces (dash attack charges bow faster)
Rail -weak and fast main attack, needs relaoding, strong specail that bombs an area. (Dash attack almost useless)
Not sure whats missing from the combination. we havea bit of everything.
Also not excatly like the designs are based on ancient greek weapons, though the gresk would have used shield, spear, sword and bow but I dont think anything is missing from that front either. Slings?
stable oyster
Fast attacking point blank range weapon
Like dual blades
Also we have a gun and I don’t think they had those
latent lotus
dual blades attached to his arms with chains!
terse tiger
I think a heavy weapon would be a cool addition, just don't know how it would best be implemented.
wheat elbow
We have two ranged weapons, Bow and Rail, two semi-ranged weapons, Shield and Spear who have good options for both melee and ranged and only one pure melee weapon
so statisticly, I'd say that the new weapon is bound to be a pure melee weapon.
Could also be something else entirely.
They could go with something basic like a hammer, as we have seen in SGG games before and could make something cool out of that.
They could also go into another direction and do something a bit more exotic.
Greek fire for example is a fairly prominent outstanding weapon in greek mythology.
And I'd say that a flame thrower would certainly qualify as an interesting melee weapon.
We also had a flame thrower in Bastion, so they could draw some ideas from that game for Hades too.
Imagine how amazing it'd look if you get a godboon of, say, Poseidon and instead of shooting fire, it becomes a Hydrocanon instead.
latent lotus
Despite the name I dont think greek fire is actually a greek invention. It was used by the roman empire around 600 AD but the time of ancient greece is like 400 BC,
Though a flamethrower would be cool. A 'ranged' weapon that actually only has about the same range as the spear.
Though by your logic the sword is pure melee, the shield and spear are melee focussed with good range, the spear and rail are ranged only. Perhaps a ranged focused weapon with a decent melee special could also make sense
wheat elbow
I'd say that the spear is melee focused with a ranged option
Also, even though Bow and Rail are ranged weapons, the way the game plays still forces you to be in close to mid range one way or another
stable oyster
Ok but we have a gun so Greek fire is still fine
wheat elbow
God knows I don't think that Dionysus needs any buffs, but I do love the suggestion of Dionysus cast applying his poison effect.
latent lotus
Id be glad to trade some of the damage it does, maybe even all of it, if it instead inflicted posion on anyone in the cloud or anyone who entered the cast. He inflicts poison. Its bizarre that festival fog doesnt. Also the boon synergy is off. Just experienced it on my last run
hearty pilot
am i the only one who think dionysus isnt that strong? like i pretty much only pick him up for privileged status because for poison to be really effective it needs to be on a frequent damaging move
eternal stag
i really like his call and dash
wheat elbow
Dionysus is amazing on so many levels.
He just isn't a god of high numbers and thus people undervalue everything he does and represents.
wheat elbow
Take his special as an example. It deals 6 to 8 damage per tick per stack, ranging from common to epic quality.
Going with common quality, 6 times 8 makes for 48 damage per application.
Depending on the weapon you use, that is either around 100% or far above that
Shield 15 damage = more than +300% damage
Sword 50 Damage = slightly below +100% damage
hearty pilot
i know poison becomes really powerful on re-application since it deals bonus damage every time you build a stack. it just seems like there arent many good weapon options to accomplish that
wheat elbow
I am not talking about reapplication
hearty pilot
yeah i know
wheat elbow
I am talking about one single application.
One single application gives you the above values per use
which are better than most other special options from other gods for most weapons.
hearty pilot
not being able to use dionysus to his full potential means i use him for priv stat only
but i shall give him more of a chance and try to use him more
wheat elbow
People are too married to the idea that they need to have 5 stacks up at all times
which they don't
and that having faster attacks that being over 5 stacks is a terrible waste of DPS
which doesn't matter.
Add to that the obvious advantages
It being an easy to aquire debuff as you noticed
And the many other percs Dionysus offers
crisp spindle
So another Dionysus run on the channel?
wheat elbow
CC (slow/stun), two damage modifiers, huge AOE damage
Defense in form of multiple means of damage mitigation or extra HP that is easy to aquire
And his duo boons are pretty neat as well and synergize greatly with the gods they go with.
@crisp spindle Dionysus seems to follow me somewhat fiercly, yes. I don't mind because I do like him a lot, but I actually have to purposely say "no" to him every now and then.
I think on the 120 heat attempt run I uploaded today he was not present. Or was he? I played so many, they have gotten a bit.....watery in my memory.
latent lotus
Dionysus is great because as degrand says one application is worth around 50 damage over 4 seconds. However get five stacks up, which I dont think is that hard with the shield melee, the bow special or the rail and your doing 250 damage a second. Its also then a curse that stays up for at least for seconds. He synergizes with many other gods but I love aphrodite the most. Weak is the easiset curse to keep going and now that 250 damage is 500. Duo boon is 8 stacks. so now its 400*2 = 800 damage a second. (not counting the attacks that inflict it) . Do an extra 20% damage to weak enemies, check. Do extra damage if 3 enemies are poisioned at once, check. It can deal insasne dps
I didnt see Dionysus as good at first either because when you see 6 damage every 0.5 seconds vs doom which can be 100 damage but its over 3 seconds, you actually have to do the maths or playtest to see it.
never seen it, but his legendary will also apply 100% damage bonus to enemies in festival fog aswell
Speaking of... this game has a lot of stuff, today on run 71 I finally saw thesues call on artemis's magic.
turbid needle
Theseus will only ever call a god that you don't have.
Black Out is pretty hideously rare.
wheat elbow
It's really not.
It is just one of the legendaries in the game that has more prerequisites than others.
You need something that applies Poison, you need the cast and you need one of....two or three passive boons that improve your poison effects.
Three boon investment where most other duo boons and/or legendaries only demand two.
latent lotus
@turbid needle Is that true? I have never noticed it if so. What happens if you have a boon from every god?
wheat elbow
I don't think thats technicly possible.
Probably some kind of subroutine preventing that. Never had it happen to myself even though I sure as hell tried.
turbid needle
I don't think it's possible. I should preface that my claim isn't rigorous.
wheat elbow
I do think, though
that you can meet all gods upon being in Styx now.
One more floor to use the keepsake of the god you haven't seen up until that point.
stable oyster
@latent lotus not 250 dmg per second, 50 dmg per second 250 over 4 seconds
Also privileged status is only 50% extra if I’m remembering correctly
Basically all those dmg numbers are multiplied by 5, and it requires an insane amount of luck for all those things to align
turbid needle
That, too, there were a looot of best case assumptions in your math.
vagrant hearth
I wish I could upvote that feedback comment about the soul-catchers and their hit detection more than once
There's been times I've avoided what would have been useful boons in Elysium just to avoid fighting the giant soul catcher
turbid needle
Sooo, I got my first hammer hella early and then I did not get a second hammer in Elysium (that I saw).
sullen ore
Sometimes it's in shops, so if you skipped too many shops you might not see it
turbid needle
I did skip a shop for a Dio/Poseidon-locked Soul Catcher room. That's annoying.
wheat elbow
It confuses me so hard that you don't show your IGT Clock
latent lotus
@stable oyster oops, yes punished is an extra 50%. I find the rail is a good poison applicator. You can get 5 stacks up and running in no time. so lets says 6 base damage every half a second. so 12 a second. Lasts 4 seconds so 48 damage. 5 stacks is 240 damge. Punished makes it 360.
wheat elbow
The whole thing becomes a bit more messy when you look at Nasty Dash because that one is just whack.
2-4 damage per tick only compared to the 4-8 for Attack and special ranging from common to epic rarity
BUT
You apply two stacks per dash, basicly doubling these values per dash
AND the poison application of Nasty Dash also applies 5 damage per stack.
So say you have epic nasty dash for 4 damage per tick, you basicly get, out of one dash, (5 * 2) + (4 * 8 * 2) damage
That makes for 74 damage per dash
Which is more than any other dash in the game deals all by itself.
- a debuff for privileged status
Comparing that to other dash attacks, I think Aphrodites is among the strongest in the game and should deal 60 to 70 damage per dash. Athenas is slightly below that, Poseidon is in a similar ball park if memory serves.
Ares is weird because it's a blade rift, Zeus' starts out as the weakest damaging dash by far and Artemis is a sick joke.
stable oyster
Guys it’s incorrect to look at the total dmg for a dot effect that has a maximum level of stacks
Dps gives you a much better picture of how it compares to others
wheat elbow
Why?
The game has no build in way to measure DPS and unless you consider bosses or some few elite enemies, DPS is never what the game encourages you to get.
You want to defeat enemies with as little effort as possible.
Ideally as fast as possible, but with gods like Ares or Dionysus and their status effects, that is of course another topic.
Nobody cares about DPS if you can end most enemies within a matter of seconds.
And that is ignoring that we have no reliable way of measuring DPS with ease whereas we can measure "damage per application" very easy by just reading tooltips and applying simple math.
Also, even if Poison does have a maximum number of stacks, it should be a somewhat rare occassion that leads you to spam the same one or two abilities repeadedly in a fashion that keeps you overcapping diseases repeadedly.
Depending on weapon and boon selection, you are usually using either your attack and your special the most paired up with the dash.
Most specialy are very slow and/or have some kind of cooldown going for them, like the sword special or the rails.
Most attacks are somewhat fast and/or spammable, but usually, they come in second in line compared to the much more impactful specials
Exceptions here being the shield and the spear, but those also not always.
So you are using three abilities regularly. If you use them in a balanced fashion, overcapping poison should hardly if ever become an issue unless you
A: have multiple poison applications
B. Use Nasty Dash
C: Just spam your poison applier and neglect other abilities.
stable oyster
Dps is what the game encourages you to get, because dps* time is dmg
Also, there being no in game way to measure it is false because we have math, you can literally calculate the dps of anything
I’m of the opinion that defeating enemies quickly is key to both saving time and avoiding dmg, because the more time enemies are alive for, the more chances they have to hit you
In my experience every single time I take dio, I get up to 5 stacks almost immediately, especially with the dash which you where calculating at 2 applications per dash
And remember, all poison stacks after the fifth do little to no dmg
Dio poison can be ok in something you use less often like special for most weapons, or dash with the goal of privileged status, but on attack it’s just not good
wheat elbow
The fifth stack will override the oldest, so you will only lose out a fractrion, if anything at all
stable oyster
Most weapons get up to five stacks in less then 2 seconds
Exceptions are bow
So you only get 3-4 new ticks, and even less as you hit faster
stable oyster
With special
wheat elbow
Yeah, it's amazing
stable oyster
I’m talking about on main attack
Compares to something like Artemis attack + hunters mark, dio on attack is just not worth it even with supporting boons
Basically my entire point is that it’s fine to like dio, but don’t try to justify it with bad math that ignores the poison cap and the fact that the dmg is spread out over a very long time
Talking about dps with max stacks is more productive and comparable to other boons then talking about total dmg per attack, which is only relevant for the first 5
Or in the case of the dash, the first 2
stable oyster
That part was directed at fenrex
wheat elbow
Ah. Never mind
Another point to keep in mind about Dionysus is taht he is simply a god that has no duds.
Athena has plenty of those, she offers safe footing or brilliant riposte, your day is ruined.
Poseidon gets old after giving you your third sunken treasure and oceans bounty is a shadow of what it once was as well.
Don't even get me started on Artemis' dash attacks or cast boons when you don't have a cast run going on.
And I could continue this list forever and ever more.
Dionysus has no duds. Almost all of his boons are always useful in some capacity.
The only boon I remotely consider to be a dud is the one that puts your HP back to a certain threshold
and that one has saved my life plenty times in the past.
naive cobalt
I don't think Dio Dash is very good. Perhaps the worst dash in the game, but as least it isnt totally useless.
Sure Footing does practically nothing
stable oyster
I’ll definitely agree that most dio boons are at least pretty useful, but I consider the cast to also be a dud because it can’t stick
Prime vintage is just great all around
I’m of the opinion that hunters dash is the worst atm
grand patrol
i think dio cast is fun tbh, it has big range! i do wish festive fog did more tho
stable oyster
Yea, like if it applied a big tick of poison or something
grand patrol
the duo that makes it be lightning is a good idea, i want more like that
stable oyster
I think that all casts that can’t stick are at a big disadvantage unless you can make it your main dmg
wheat elbow
Dios Cast is amazing because it flinches enemies standing in it.
A great tool for crowd control.
wheat elbow
Absolutely
gloomy scroll
Even with boss rooms the cast being able to just repeatedly put out damage shouldn’t be ignored even if you don’t get the bonus stick damage
wheat elbow
And the bloodstone debuff isn't as strong as it sounds
gloomy scroll
^
wheat elbow
Even then, it isn't all that consequential.
Pretty sure it's additive
but don't quote me on that.
stable oyster
Idk it could be I need to test that
gloomy scroll
I remember someone saying that almost all dmg effects that aren’t crit are additive... but yeah I’m not sure
wheat elbow
I m still not convinced on crit not being additive tbf.
stable oyster
Easy to test
gloomy scroll
True, and very helpful to know
wheat elbow
There are also people who say that chaos adds multiplicatively
which I can't prove because I am avoiding the buster like the plague.
stable oyster
Hey don’t knock chaos
wheat elbow
Chaos is one of the worst mechanics in the game atm.
stable oyster
Oh no
wheat elbow
Very confusing, usually lethal and rarely if ever worth it.
gloomy scroll
I like the idea behind chaos but even when I’m on low heat it often happens that I get effects that aren’t safe to pick and I settle
stable oyster
I mean it’s a risk
gloomy scroll
Yeah
wheat elbow
You are giving up a choice and HP for a curse that can potencially kill you for a reward that in most cases is not worth it.
stable oyster
Which is basically a second attack boon
gloomy scroll
I agree that some of the effects are too punishing to be takable, but I don’t think it requires any major rework, as there are many that are quite worth it, at least to me
stable oyster
Also most curses are not that bad
wheat elbow
I think there are some major reworks needed.
gloomy scroll
There are only a couple that stand out to me as not viable, that being damage on dashing and hide rewards as general examples
wheat elbow
For example, where Chaos drops you off afterwards is in need of some serious work.
The reduce max HP one can be lethal as well.
I played one heated attempt once
50 base HP
gloomy scroll
This is true, it would be nice if he dropped you where you could have gone
eternal stag
i mean you can debate how useful chaos is but if i'm not mistaken they're referred to in the game as they/them.
stable oyster
Chaos is above mere mortal concepts such as gender
eternal stag
that's a funny way of saying 'in game, they're referred to with they/them pronouns'
stable oyster
The all powerful chaos shall not be confined to the distinctions of the masses
All hail chaos
grand patrol
eternal stag
like, i'm all for that. and also, they're correctly referred to with they/them pronouns.
covert grove
Chaos is king, @wheat elbow should have to take every gate offered now for the next 10 runs
stable oyster
No, why should we reward the heretic
He is now FORBIDDEN from using chaos gates for 10 runs
That will show him
wheat elbow
I don't think there is anything right I can say about this topic at this point
so I will remain silent.
covert grove
Having said that, I do think that the -health on dash is way too punishing. I get that the idea is that we should avoid dashing all together during this time but it doesn't really seem viable. I think it would be for the best to just have the health deduction always be 1 or maybe 2 with it. Also the constant Chaos noise when dashing is unpleasant.
wheat elbow
Reminds me, are you gonna do a 120 heat clear?
stable oyster
He has a 16 min one
wheat elbow
In the current update?
wheat elbow
Wish he'd had that on the safefile I got from him.
I wouldn't have felt the need to get a 120 heat clear in that way,
stable oyster
@covert grove if - health on dash is too punishing just play shield noob lol
Blocks are ez
latent lotus
I think the problem is that some choas curses dont balance the reward. The one I avoid always is that every dash will cause -3 health. A penalty to avoid damage is an insane curse, not to mention I also use dash just to move quicker even out of combat so losing it is really annoying . The reward is your dash attack is +88% or something.
Losing the ability use cast for 4 rooms for one additional ammo for the next 50 rooms is a good trade. Losing 40 health for 3 rooms to gain a permenant 40 health the rest of the game is fine. Losing the ability to see the room rewards, is probably not that risky a curse but I always ignore it because these days I'm trying to make specific builds and to do that I need to see.
I think you should have the option to leave choas boons. You pay 23 life just to see them, if they all seem like really poor choices yous should have the option to walk away
stable oyster
Then it wouldn’t be a risk tho
gloomy scroll
I think that maybe their booms should be re-evaluated, but I still will take a chaos gate in Tartarus if I don’t see a reward from a next room reward that I must have. Most of the balancing is fine
stable oyster
It would be a time skip that sometimes gives you something really powerful
latent lotus
your still gambling 23 life to see wahts there
stable oyster
Dmg on dash is bad for all weapons except shield, dmg on attack is bad for shield, I think these two should be changed
Remember to add 6 back from healing
latent lotus
the dash curse is insanse
stable oyster
Yea
latent lotus
I always generally gamble on choas in tartarus, less so later.
I do also always use him if I dont like the room reward on offer
gloomy scroll
^
latent lotus
Im sure tweaks are being made. They can probably see the numbers on what curses get chosen and the ones that always get ignored may be changed
gloomy scroll
It’s also nice whenever you get them first chamber when you would have had a small darkness reward or even a key (I don’t have maxed rerolls so..)
latent lotus
I never reroll keys darkness anyway, since I read you can only reroll blue wreathes for blue wreethes. I dont care about keys, ambrosia or 10 darkness naymore
gloomy scroll
This is true
latent lotus
In fact I wish they would change that! rerolling 10 darkness into a god boon on a heated run would be a huge deal
gloomy scroll
Could also mean rolling a Pom into darkness though..
Any other thing you don’t need
latent lotus
true
gloomy scroll
Just a trade-off that would more than likely end up not in your favour but still a fun thought
latent lotus
though the road path says they plan on making ambrosia and keys more usefull late game so maybe that will fix the issue
Maybe more ambrosia to a god will increase chance for rare boons or somwthing
latent lotus
I also think heat needs a a use besides heated runs. 120 heat seems to be the max expectation but I already have more than 300. Even with spending it at the trader every chacne I can get. Getting five every run from the hydra is proving too much
gloomy scroll
that's interesting, and I'm nowhere near that point yet so I can't comment more on it
wheat elbow
Heat should not be a reward you get ingame the way you did.
Even when you don't have 120 (or 200 which is the actual maximum that nobody uses), those 1 heat room rewards are just never worth it
latent lotus
agreed, heat needs to do something else as well or it needs to work differently. Of course I would not be at all suprised to see them change the hydra reward when the game is a full release.
wheat elbow
God knows I hope they will.
stable oyster
HEY
wheat elbow
LISTEN!
stable oyster
I use 200!
wheat elbow
That maikes you the exception to the rule.
latent lotus
I still have more than even that
wheat elbow
I actually do it every now and then'ish as well.
stable oyster
I’m getting closer! One day I will kill hydra
wheat elbow
Think I got past the first boss one time.
wheat elbow
Yeah, heat turns the simplest of enemies into pure and unadulterated hellspawn.
stable oyster
Getting hit for 60 by a room one enemy
latent lotus
I do think that the same as their is a pact of punishment to make the game harder and more interesting for replayability we should get a pact of choas. You can choose an equal amount of buffs and debuffs for a run. Have each assigned a positive and negative score and you must always be perfectly balanced
stable oyster
Or just add some sort of negative heat modification
But i think that’s sort of the roll of the mirror + pact
wheat elbow
IU gotta say, all things considered, the pact does not interest me as much.
I am more interested in things that make the base game more varied and interesting.
More gods, more bosses, more enemies, more bioms, more mechanics/characters.
Making gameplay a bit deeper instead of just harder, you know?
latent lotus
No I think the mirror is part of earning your way to victory your expected to slowly get stronger each run.
The pact is to challenge you.
The choas pact as I envision it would be just for fun.
stable oyster
I think of the pact as a way to keep you on your toes after the base game
latent lotus
Id love more enemies and more biomes but that seems to not be on the cards,
I love for more greek monsters of myths to be bosses in aphrodel (same as we have three furies)
Id love for more greek heroes to be bosses in elysium
Id love that after your fifth or tenth or something vicotry over hades, he replaces cerberus with a different hell hound and now you have another boss in styx who cant be bribed.
stable oyster
The whole thing about making the game deeper is a good idea, but then the question is why not just have that be baseline anyway
If those things do happen, they won’t be bound to heat
wheat elbow
Instead of that, I'd rather just see Hades use different weapons.
stable oyster
That would be cool yea
latent lotus
no im just saying what id love to see added to the game but at some point sgg has to finish and publish
wheat elbow
He has some abilities that aren't weapon centric, like his cast or his stealth; he can keep those
but the weapon based attack like the whirling strike or the stab
those#d be replaced by sword attacks
or bow attacks
Hell, give him a shield so he can be as OP as Thesseus.
Also, please never give Hades a shield.
stable oyster
Ok never mind I hate the idea of shield hades
latent lotus
the stealth is iconic, because of his helmet. I believe a bident is his mythylogical weapon. Still he wont have aegis but he could have a shield. I agree though that it would be interesting to see him have more movesets. Having him summon random mobs is not really interesting
wheat elbow
You are very fixated on hunters mark
stable oyster
It’s soooooo goooood
wheat elbow
It is, but I wouldn't want to see every bit of game design being designed around it.
latent lotus
no he can keep the mobs Im just saying that I dont say I completed a hades soul cathcer run or a hades chariot run. I would say I completed a hades bow run
wheat elbow
Also, we don't have a lot of pure single target fights in the game.
In factm, we only have one.
stable oyster
Only ‘‘tis and Alecto
wheat elbow
Yes. Not as ridiculously often as Meg summons her goons.
stable oyster
I never noticed
wheat elbow
But you usually see 2-4 in a fight.
latent lotus
I think bosses vs mobs is one of the problems in the game design right now. Poseidon wrecks movs but cant touch bosses. for instance. I get thats part of creating a good build but since builds are also partly random its hard to balance beeing good vs large targets or good against many
wheat elbow
Thing with that is that that is a Poseidon exclusive problem.
stable oyster
I think it’s fine to have different builds be good for different things
atomic panther
Bosses are affected by Poseidon's knockbacks now (Except the hydra)
wheat elbow
Half of his boons still don't affect bosses though.
Zeus/Pos Duo boon usually ends up doing nothing
latent lotus
aphrodites charm is very much for big bosses etc. Posedion its a huge problem but lots of powers are good for one or the other but not both
stable oyster
That’s fine IMO
wheat elbow
Neither do his two boons that reward you for slamming enemies into each other and/into walls.
latent lotus
Zeus is an exception in that he is good always against both
stable oyster
If you can knock back bosses now you can wallslam bosses
wheat elbow
Well yes and no.
The knock back you apply is super weak
And bosses usually are not close enough to walls
and they are usually very mobile.
I saw wall rush damage pop up against Tisiphone only once
stable oyster
You can bait meg and bull into walls
wheat elbow
and that's because she dashed into me as I was hitting her.
Apparently the game counted that as me crushing her into the wall
latent lotus
The brilliance of this game is that when I first got to asphodel I thought it was so ridiculously ahrd and unfair and never imagined I could get to a 4th biome. Now I cant imagine not getting to at lesat styx and am wihing for more biomes and more enemies. Its a good game, and close to finish. We all just wish for more and more and more
stable oyster
That’s why heat is great, you can recreate that feeling at will
pastel jolt
gestures gently in the direction of the roadmap
stable oyster
It has for me
latent lotus
the roadmap says one more npc, one more enemy. No more bosses, no more biomes are planned at current
wheat elbow
Heat actively takes aspect of the game out of the equation.
It doesn't give you a feeling of novelty because the game is the same
just harder.
latent lotus
not one more eneymy, I meant weaponm
wheat elbow
You don't say that benchpressing is a novel experience just because you slapped 5 kilos on the bar.
Yeah, the weapon will be an amazing addition.
Looking forward to that one quite a bit.
stable oyster
I it recreated the feeling of slow tangible progress
latent lotus
this game is perhaps the only game I have ever thought id be glad to pay for dlc
stable oyster
Also that comparison completely glosses over the differences between heat and no heat runs
Are you going to honestly tell me that 50% frenzy feels at all like no heat?
wheat elbow
No, I think that 50% frenzy feels unpleasant and frustrating.
stable oyster
That’s a difference
wheat elbow
Not frustrating in a good way that makes me feel accomplished when I overcome it.
Frustrating in a way that makes me go "Glad I don't have to do this again."
stable oyster
It’s fine to think that, but you can’t compare it to lifting a slightly heavier weight
wheat elbow
Make the weight bigger then.
stable oyster
Because the way you approach the game is fundamentally different
The choices you make change as you weigh different options with different weights
wheat elbow
You press or don't press a bar while lying on a bench.
The amount of weight does not change the possibility of these two outcomes.
Same with heat.
You finish the run or you get crushed before that.
You are doing the exact same thing
stable oyster
Yea that’s why it’s a terrible analogy
turbid needle
^
wheat elbow
just with lesser chances of success, depending on your level of skill.
turbid needle
I mean, I could get Pear in here and ask him if he plays any differently on 500% VT, but I'm pretty sure he does.
latent lotus
I dont enjoy heat and mostly ignore it. The strangest aspect of it to me is you need to grind for heat (admittedly easy) and for keys (not so much) to use it! Grinding for the mirror feels rewarding. Grinding to make the game harder because Im now too good at it is not
stable oyster
You can simplify all games to winning or losing if you try that hard lol
wheat elbow
At the end of the day, it is that simple though.
Did you win or did you lose?
Did you enjoy yourself or did you not?
stable oyster
There is a massive difference between what it takes to win a hades run and what it takes to lift a weight
turbid needle
You're being insanely reductive.
wheat elbow
Don't call me reductive, I don't know what that means.
turbid needle
You're simplifying this too much.
stable oyster
You are reducing all games to weather you win or not
wheat elbow
I saw that dictionary bit.
I do not.
I just said a few lines earlier "did you enjoy yourself or did you not?"
turbid needle
Yeah, and it was too much, which is why I got rid of it.
wheat elbow
That is another aspect of the story.
turbid needle
Enjoyment is subjective.
wheat elbow
I wish you would have kept it around because it was true.
I could have just googled it, but googling those kind of things kills conversation.
stable oyster
So if I win 2 games and I enjoyed myself for those two games they are the same game?
latent lotus
I think we all understand what he is saying. The enemies have more health, they do more damage but they behave the same way, have the same attacks. Its the same game .
wheat elbow
I go even farther and say that you can also lose games and have a good time.
And you can also win and have a bad time.
Hades as a base game right now is a game in that I feel comfortable in my ability to win it
and I do have a good time when I do and mostly also when I lose.
latent lotus
its not a traditional diffculty system where on hard, the enemies dodge more, have different combos to learn and adjust to etc.
wheat elbow
If I add heat to the equation, I become frustrated because at that point, the game does not become fun to play
turbid needle
Well, I'd say numeric difficulty is more common than behavioral.
stable oyster
But I disagree with hades and monster hunter world being the same game, every though I won and enjoyed both
wheat elbow
it becomes a grind for favorable conditions under which I can beat the game.
turbid needle
That's how I always feel about Hades, even with a maxed mirror and 7 rerolls.
stable oyster
7!
wheat elbow
10 is the maximum.
stable oyster
I know
wheat elbow
I am glad that Haelian had that on the safefile I got from him.
stable oyster
But 7
wheat elbow
I was at 9 before I lost mine.
latent lotus
im on 4 😦
stable oyster
So many runs...
turbid needle
I broke 400 a few days ago.
latent lotus
I think I must just steal the save file
wheat elbow
Yeah I have been playing this game a lot since may or so.
errant narwhal
im only at about 110 runs..
wheat elbow
I think I should be approaching 500?
stable oyster
I haven’t been able to play lately bc I don’t have it at uni
turbid needle
RIP
wheat elbow
I think I saw around 450 on my last safefile before I lost it
turbid needle
Maybe some day with the Switch release...
latent lotus
this game would be so good on swtich. I hope it happens
wheat elbow
Take it one step at a time.
errant narwhal
my lmb and spacebar still suck, so i havent been playing..
wheat elbow
Let's wait for the steam release first.
stable oyster
This game would be good on pc too
wheat elbow
Hope that the game will get some more popularity.
turbid needle
I'm worried it'll get framey on mobile mode on a Switch release.
wheat elbow
The game IS good on PC.
turbid needle
PC is pretty fun, can confirm.
stable oyster
It’s not out on pc yet
errant narwhal
getting the vinyl boxset was A Lot for my bank account so getting new KBM isnt on the horizon ;__;
latent lotus
I dont know how you guys play with keyboard and mouse, I use a gamepad
stable oyster
How do you aim?
turbid needle
There's auto-aim with a pad.
errant narwhal
im a god B)
latent lotus
auto aim to a point, otherwise while some weapons as it charges you move the arrow
maybe I should try mouse and keyboard but it felt wierd the one time I did it
stable oyster
How do I aim? *glances nervously at Artemis cast in the background * perfectly
turbid needle
She does say she can guarantee your aim.
latent lotus
the lob weapons like festival fog and special on rail take too long to aim so I often let the auto aim do it and the aim is bad
errant narwhal
awtemis.... pwease hewp me i need to escape
latent lotus
you are not yet worthy of her full boons
stable oyster
Cursed
latent lotus
speaking of I would love an olympus biomes
errant narwhal
out of O emojis, are you..
wheat elbow
I expect to see a farm after Hades.
stable oyster
It’s just the transistor
hearty pilot
running out to the countryyyyyy
green birch
Sitting down never struck me
stable oyster
On any run, oh any run
Using heat for the feeling
Now my wounds are not healing
This is dumb, not even fun
green birch
And I haven’t even woooo
Ooooo
Ooooooo
OOOOO
oooon
wheat elbow
I feel like I am missing some context here.
hearty pilot
we all become one
also i said the country line from it cuz the country is just wheat everywhere
gloomy scroll
ok so I finally beat 15 heat (I've done 65 runs now) and I did it with a focus on Dio cast and took like 3 chaos rooms? so there's that
stable oyster
All topics discussed in this channel over the past 8 hours
gloomy scroll
exactly!
ripe iron
@stable oyster any further details on the race? Date time maybe?
turbid needle
Since when has Dread Flight negated Mirage Flight's travel rate penalty?
atomic panther
Since Elysium
turbid needle
Dang.
stable oyster
@ripe iron idk man I don’t have much access to hades atm, we don’t really have a set date
I might be able to doo stuff over thanksgiving or Christmas break
ripe iron
Whenever you want to, I'll support it
turbid needle
Solo Bullhorned by 500% VT Theseus for the KO. Uh huh.
wheat elbow
How much damage was that?
turbid needle
wheat elbow
Huh. Neat.
wheat elbow
Had a run with four duo boons, one of them being vengeful mood with all four revenge counters
vale sphinx
Ares, Zeus, Athena, who else? Does Aphro have one?
wheat elbow
Yes
gloomy scroll
That sounds.. potent
stable oyster
“Why are you hitting yourself? Why are you hitting yourself?”
wheat elbow
Was close to also gettiung merciful end on top of that
THAT would have been the real kicker
turbid needle
Heads-up: Asterius does not require you to be right up in his giblets like I thought to get him to swing during his combo sequence. There can be daylight and he'll still pop you for 108 damage. That is all.
wheat elbow
What is this? When I click that emoji thing under his comment, my screen shakes and the upvote from me goes away.
naive cobalt
I've started using the shield of chaos
It's incredible how much difference having a block mechanic makes
wheat elbow
Oh yeah, big time.
gloomy scroll
So I know heat layouts are mostly preferential, but does anyone have suggestions for 60 heat configurations?
wheat elbow
Frenzy + something else I'd say.
Or, if you feel like you can pull that off, Full Vicious Torment + Something
karmic ginkgo
wheat elbow
It's a marathon of a fight.
You need to understand the attacjk patterns and ideally be able to punch the heads very very hard.
Ideally relatively fast.
Also, on the lop left and right corner of the map are two health drops.
gloomy scroll
I will add if you know which heads are which it is pretty simple to prioritize (I usually just go left->right) and know how to dodge
wheat elbow
I actually still can't memorize what head does what.
hearty pilot
pink spits lava, red is a wave-maker, green summons bloodless, yellow just smashes its head on the floor
gloomy scroll
yep
hearty pilot
honestly the attack that gets me the most is the universal head tilt
gloomy scroll
truuue
hearty pilot
latent lotus
I am colour blind but not overly so but I cant tell the head colours apart. I have learnt its not that hard to dodge though.
The genius of the game is the first few times you reach a new area your low on health, you panick and you dont know the pattern and you die in seconds. You think its impossible. The next time you do better, the third time better still and at some point you figure out whats going on and you look back and wonder what was so hard
gloomy scroll
this is true, and the progression is such that you can get better really quickly
even just starting out is doesn't take too long to use your darkness and general skill gain to help you reach new areas
gloomy scroll
stable oyster
Feel the power of Olympus coursing through your veins
turbid needle
I guess when a large chariot is moving it's dealing damage? Just had one leisurely bump into me for 90 damage.
latent lotus
I still dont really understand how chariors work,, big or small. Do the little ones explode when they reach you? Or when you kill them? I kill them at range or dash attack through them, most often I avoid damage, sometimes I dont
green birch
The small ones explode when they hit an object near death! The big ones never explode
latent lotus
i love that they meow
green birch
Yeah the little "nyack" thing they do is hilarious ahaha
turbid needle
They're suicide babies! It's like Dead Space but worse!
burnt timber
anyone have any tips on effective builds/strategies for 120 heat runs. I've been trying to gun for the Ares/Athena duo boon but it feels like most runs I don't have enough damage and just slowly take too much damage over the run until it's best to reset.
Wondering if anyone has some cheap tech lol
native ether
I wouldn't recommend the Athena/Ares duo on the gun because it's hard to trigger that before Doom just goes off itself. For the rail I'd recommend Aphrodite + Dionysus Attack and Low Tolerance or Artemis Special + Aphrodite with Heart Rend.
Hunting Blades with Ares Legendary is also god tier should you be able to get it.
burnt timber
I mainly use the sword simply because I feel like I use it best. Sorry when I said I gun for that duo boon I meant I just try to get it often lol.
The Athena/Ares boon is what got me through the 60 run clear, proccing the doom every special CD led to so much damage.
But at this point I feel like specifically trying to get that boon is too unreliable, even with the proper keepsakes.
At the end of each run, my build feels kind of fragmented. Maybe I should try Artemis for more consistent damage.
broken cipher
I was just about to suggest Artemis for a more reliable damage boost. But beyond that? No idea.
latent lotus
Hunting Blades with Ares Legendary is also god tier should you be able to get it.
not done 120 myself, no interest really but are you familiar with the sword special deflect build? It might work well. Decent damage insanely good defense. easiest build I know
burnt timber
Would that be something like Athena special + Athena dash
I've noticed how charitable the invincibility you get from Athena boons is for sure
stable oyster
Athena special double nova
burnt timber
That's one of the things that saved my ass in the 60 heat run
I might trying going for that then. Might help control the RNG. At least I'll have that one constant I can rely on.
latent lotus
combine it with the deflect dash to maximise your invulnerability time.
hearty pilot
wait whats the athena/ares duo? i dont think ive ever gotten it
latent lotus
merciful end. cast doom on something, than use on of athenas attacks on it. It will trigger doom immediatly and add an extra 90 damag
hearty pilot
ah
inland pebble
@burnt timber 120 run is really hard with sword, but I would recommend Ares Attack with Aphrodite duo boon. Which can be easily pivot into Ares Cast and Artemis Attack/Special with the chance to have Hunting Blades duo.
Be aware of what the game is trying to give you thou. Yesterday I managed to have Athena Lengendary + FOUR duo boons between Athena Aphrodite Ares and Artemis. The quaruple A quality run lol!
burnt timber
Ooh I really like Ares/Aphrodite because it's easy to get privileged without having to invest multiple boons
inland pebble
Like, all 4 of them have duo boons together it's much more reliable to get at least one or 2
True
hearty pilot
ares/aphro is super good for ps
since doom lasts for a really short amount of time
wait someone said that alredy
im blind ignore me
inland pebble
True. Espcially if you managed to get it on Attack with sword. So the combo is quite easy to do. Passion Dash/Special, then combo Doom attack on them
Or if the game is giving you Artemis, it's easy to have her Special or Attack. Same combo with Aphrodite Dash/cast and their dou boon.
hearty pilot
im forcing myself to use the spear and im actually having a good amount of fun with the spin attacks
inland pebble
You can have a cast-heavy run with either Aphrodite/Athena + Artemis. Seriously, when you get used to them, the AAAA run can't do you wrong in anyway. 🥳
burnt timber
AAAA I'll remember that haha
inland pebble
Hahaha
Sometimes I feel like Supergiant intentionally designs the game that way hehe
Spear is hard to master man. I'm watching DeGrande and other speedrunners on tips with the spear. Ugh, it's so annoying hard!
hearty pilot
i enjoy using weaker things for some reason
idk
then again i cant even beat theseus on 75 heat ;_;
inland pebble
Like, the spear is not weak I can tell you that. But I usually find myself replying on Ares/AAAA too much with the spear considering that I always have troubles use the spin attack
hearty pilot
well
stable oyster
Spear is meh right now
hearty pilot
i find that the others are far better
so thats why i use varatha
otherwise i love coronacht
inland pebble
True. Bow, Rail AND Shield are lovely since you can manage your distance easily with huge damage potential
Wish they would buff Speak Special/allowing you to charge Spin while taking dmg, then I might consider taking the spear seriously
stable oyster
The special is good, it’s the low base damage and the Low mobility while attack that really hurt the spear
If you can get good at charging the spin you can make it work
hearty pilot
i wouldnt mind the special being faster
yeah spin dashing is really fun and quite effective
inland pebble
Yeah i know. Still learning how to Spin effectively with the Spear, without actually giving up and use it as a stabbing device with Ares/Dionysus boon instead 😑😒
Watching people playing the spear masterfully gives me envy 😒🙁
stable oyster
Wait until you see high level shield gameplay
latent lotus
I love the spear now. Once I realized I can dash after the spin is charged and move the spin attack with me it made it viable. Its easy to get 400 damage a shot with a max spin
hearty pilot
ikr
gloomy scroll
wait what that's some sick tech
turbid needle
Would making the spin chargeable through dashes, only releasing upon letting go of Attack, be too busted? 
hearty pilot
no pls i would love that
latent lotus
probably, an upgraded spin is three times the radius of a sword special. The only downside to its power is the long charge time, which can also be quickened, if you could move while charging it, it would become the best weapon hands down
hearty pilot
it would be neat if you could use a dash during charge and then another for attack but its not fluid enough
stable oyster
If you let spear do it, you would need to let the other weapons do it as well
night compass
i dont usually take the chaos boons that punish dashing since its such an irreplaceable mechanic but i figured i'd try one out on my latest run. i forgot to count how many rooms i was on though and tisiphone just took all my death defiances :(
turbid needle
Stabbing are beyond brutal.
night compass
shes usually the easiest fury for me but uh. ouch ouch ouch OUCH
im out of tartarus but at what cost
vale sphinx
Question, does Hermes + Attack speed make spin faster?
||Also, it kinda feels like the brief pauses between the three-punch series in the automatic attack hammer buff do not get sped up, but that might just be me||
blazing mulch
The thing I think work is that you can basically charge the spin during dash. So while playing with Xbox controller I slash dash and attack together and it feels charging faster
native ether
it should but it doesnt change that you're still standing very still in a game were standing still near enemies is typically asking to be hit
you can kind of get away with it on the rail cause its a more mobile weapon and its got range
same with the bow
spear requires you to stand still right next to enemies to get that spin attack value
gotta say my favorite is still the rail though. High tier rail gameplay is a lot of incredibly careful ammo counting and using your shots to keep enemies stuck inside bomb detonations.
turbid needle
God, I love the Rail.
I do mostly disagree with the spear requiring you to stand completely still.
naive cobalt
I think I perform best with the rail, but Im trying to git gud at the shield, because it looks very promising to me
stable oyster
Shield is amazing
turbid needle
Shield is overall best weapon in the game, but sword and maybe Rail have higher potential DPS.