h1-builds-and-combat

[turbid needle]

that would be artificial lengthening game though @wheat elbow

[wheat elbow]

It may be hidden behind a 100 key wall for all we know.

[copper berry]

Slow progression isn't quite the gameplay loop of a roguelike.

[wheat elbow]

@turbid needle Artificial lengthening is one way to increase replayability.

[toxic acorn]

you get to the point of clearing the game and play because the game is fun

the game is really short so the gameplay is the reward

[wheat elbow]

The idea of working towards a potencial reward entices people.

[toxic acorn]

99% of the time

[turbid needle]

@wheat elbow it's a bad practice though

[wheat elbow]

Depends on how you implement it.

[copper berry]

The whole point of roguelikes is having many tools at your disposal to mix and match a run so each time you play it feels different. I think having weapons and keepsakes unlocked quickly, but mirror being more of a slow unlock process is good.

[toxic acorn]

i think i'm getting mad online so i'm gonna peace out

dude

[copper berry]

There is also heat if you want to artificially extend the gameplay.

[wheat elbow]

An adult decision.

I can respect that.

[turbid needle]

@toxic acorn what would you think would be good to increase the challenge and fun at once thouhg

[stable oyster]

Whipped frenzy

[toxic acorn]

i've said it like 3 times already lol but to recap:

gameplay is king, making the gameplay fun is king.
to do that when you don't unlock items (boons):
(keepsakes and weapons are unlocked quickly and are mostly not relevant to this discussion)
-make the skill ceiling as high as possible
-make the higher end of the skill ceiling fun
-encourage people to climb that skill ladder
these are solved by
-increasing base 0 heat difficulty (drastically increasing difficulty from heat)
-making heat abilities fun while increasing the challenge (i suggest adding more attacks to base enemies, tweaking health, upgrading bosses, making enemies from future biomes appear in earlier biomes, etc)

[drowsy plover]

I like this, I agree that heat just ramping up the numbers for the most part isn't a 'fun' way to increase difficulty.

[wheat elbow]

Sorry, man, but I think that's naive.

[toxic acorn]

don't limit me when the enemies aren't at their highest potential

[stable oyster]

You chose when you limit yourself

[wheat elbow]

I can see where you are coming from, but the idea that the challenge is it's own reward is something only a very specific amount of people is going to agree with.

There are plenty of people who like to play a game just for the sake of being able to complete it.

[stable oyster]

^no it’s actually common

[toxic acorn]

exactly daddy, that's the player i am

[stable oyster]

To the difficulty bit

[toxic acorn]

the game is fun so i play the game

beating the game is fun

[drowsy plover]

well, to fall back to isaac comparisons, the difficulty of the base run increases as you unlock more bosses etc

[wheat elbow]

As of now, I have finished all keepsakes, beat the game with every weapon and got the hard mode reward and grinded all friend bars to the maximum.

[drowsy plover]

theres a degree of this with the furies

[wheat elbow]

From a completionists point of view, I am finished and could drop the keyboard for good.

[toxic acorn]

and it's great bumble ngl

[wheat elbow]

There are plenty of people who play a story driven based game once for the story and drop it then and there.

[toxic acorn]

but you keep playing because the game is fun, right? so why not have way more fun options at a higher difficulty, so you can keep improving?

that's my point.

[wheat elbow]

Getting through the entire game once isn't difficult, but thanks to how dialogue qorks in this game, there is more story coming your way constantly, which is good.

[wind vale]

most of what you listed in the end largely increases the skill floor more than the ceiling

[wheat elbow]

But playing a SINGLE PLAYER GAME just for the sake of improving yourself for no other reason than being able to show off for yourself and yourself alone?

That is only going to be attractive to a very few people.

[wind vale]

getting more combo potential would be the best idea to increase the ceiling i could see

[wheat elbow]

Monks and Content Creators.

[stable oyster]

Dark souls, XCOM

[toxic acorn]

Civ

[turbid needle]

well... Dark Souls has multiplayer, so there is that

[stable oyster]

Any hard mode ever

[toxic acorn]

many, many roguelikes do this

[drowsy plover]

yeah I think it's a tragedy that we lost some of that in single player, so I disagree

[wheat elbow]

Yeah, and all of them give you something in return.

[toxic acorn]

many, many games do this

[stable oyster]

Speedruns

[wheat elbow]

"most" of them

[toxic acorn]

not really anythign more than acheivements

i misspelled that whatever

[wheat elbow]

People love achievements!

Got knows I don't know why but they do

[turbid needle]

well even games like Guilty Gear give u rewards for completing challenges, being it even some hidden concept art or something like that

[wheat elbow]

And achievements are just one part of that completionist attitude I just mentioned.

[toxic acorn]

okay so hades doesn't need in game rewards because this issue is solved by achievements

[turbid needle]

and I would say, even story bits but then I hate Dark Cells for that kinda

[wheat elbow]

@toxic acorn Why are you so against the idea of ingame rewards?`

[drowsy plover]

I feel like achievements are often used as a cheap way to forgo proper rewards or whatever.

[wheat elbow]

How can it diminish your gameplay value if you get rewarded for hard tasks?

[toxic acorn]

because they are unnecessary

[wind vale]

most achievements are really bad but there are some nice ones

[wheat elbow]

That doesn't answer the question.

[toxic acorn]

no it definitely does

[wind vale]

but thats just sort of special challenges

[wheat elbow]

If they are unnecessary, you could just ignore the topic and move on.

[toxic acorn]

i don't want in game rewards from high heat because i don't need them

[drowsy plover]

I do want more neato combos to unlock, ngl

[toxic acorn]

i have been mostly ignoring the argument and trying to move on

[drowsy plover]

well, i want more content overall, but duh

[wheat elbow]

That is the big thing in my book.

People like "getting more"

[toxic acorn]

i want more difficulty and more motivation to get up on the skill ladder through making it fun

[wheat elbow]

More content of various things.

And they also like feeling that they earned it.

[copper berry]

This is just a difference of viewpoints.

[stable oyster]

Most things are

[drowsy plover]

I think both things can happen though

[copper berry]

Saying achievements are unnecessary I feel is a bit dismissive. Many times the achievements present a challenge to actually complete.

Off the top of the domepiece, Slay the Spire has an Achievement for completing the game with only one relic, and another for completing it using only common cards.

[wheat elbow]

@copper berry Which is why I try to understand him. I can understand that he doesn't "need" them and thinks that they are unnecessary. That doesn't explain why he is so "against" of having them being there anyway if a lot of other people would potencially enjoy them."

[toxic acorn]

this isn't a game where you unlock items for completing achievements

because how would that even work

[stable oyster]

Some players are motivated by challenge, others achievements, and that’s fine

[copper berry]

Neither is Slay the Spire, but people still like to try em.

[wheat elbow]

This game is in early access, it can still go into plenty directions if the devs think they have it in them.

[drowsy plover]

I was gonna say, yeah, we don't know the state of that

[stable oyster]

The entire point of talking about this is because we have the power to create real change in the game

[wheat elbow]

Which is why we talk.

But while we do have this talk, we must not forget that we, and I repeat

are a minority.

[drowsy plover]

also as for skill ceiling increase, I do agree I'd love that, and I'd especially love it not to be linked to just scaling health or damage.

[wheat elbow]

Plenty people in here have finished the game in multiple updates already.

Plenty of people in here have seen the game on different levels of heat in different updates.

That is not true for most.

[wind vale]

increasing skill ceiling while lowering or keeping the skill floor

[drowsy plover]

One of my favourite parts was finding the fury boss getting switched around, it was a new challenge, I had to step it up, and I got more story.

[wheat elbow]

Take a loot at the reddit every now and then, see how proud people are when they finally get their first clears in after XXX tries.

[wind vale]

which doesnt work with plain damage / health increases

[stable oyster]

Heat is how I think they should add to the skill ceiling

[wheat elbow]

The idea of heat is neat.

Just the execution needs a lot of work.

[drowsy plover]

not changes to the run after so many completions?

[stable oyster]

Meh

[wheat elbow]

Also, I agree, Bumble.

I hope that there will be more ways the games structure and bosses change over time.

[stable oyster]

I guess I would need to see a few examples of “good” pact options

[wheat elbow]

I want another final boss for Asphodel and Elysium at the very least.

[drowsy plover]

I'd love it if after you beat ||dad|| that he steps up the whole run and punishes you

[wind vale]

i really like the hp increases for heat, not for the current state but the general idea - with this you could encourage larger/harder combos that would be overkill before

[wheat elbow]

Another greek hero for Elysium, another Monster Corpse to fight in Asphodel

[wind vale]

but they should always be available

[wheat elbow]

The nemean lion for example

[stable oyster]

Bit of a side question but why do people hate frenzy

[drowsy plover]

Uenuku, I like the 2 blue hearts pact for this!

poison rips through it, but high single shot damage? nuh uh

[wheat elbow]

@stable oyster Because it makes the game borderline unplayable in many situations.

The game and some enemies in particular is just not optimized for that level of speed.

[stable oyster]

Only if you go all the way

[wind vale]

i did shield 120 heat with it

[drowsy plover]

which is frenzy? enemy dps+?

[wind vale]

speed

[stable oyster]

Faster enemies

[wheat elbow]

Enemy Speed + 50%

[drowsy plover]

ooh

[stable oyster]

Not plus 50 tho

Bc you can tune it

[wheat elbow]

It is + 50% at max range.

[copper berry]

5%-50%

[stable oyster]

Try it at like 10 it spices up the game a ton

[copper berry]

Yeah I personally have to have a little of it on at all times now, because after playing at +50% for so long, the base enemies almost feel too slow without it.

[wind vale]

i really dont mind it - i find shield 120 with no enemy damage increase, healing reduction and 3 choices equally as hard as bow with no enemy hp, shields, speed, also 3 choices

[turbid needle]

well at 50, probably numbskulls hit as fast together as Travis Barker hits his drums doing the Soulja Boy Remix so...

[copper berry]

Yeah numbskulls aren't a big issue though if you have enough damage to 1 shot them.

[wind vale]

the only thing that i find too random is removing my choices

[copper berry]

Until you start adding Death Insurance and they get just frustrating.

[wind vale]

but i guess some want rng

[wheat elbow]

Which you won't if you add more heat to the mix than just 40.

Also, numbskulls aren't the worst enemy to face with heat.

Try spear heroes for a change.

[stable oyster]

Well then don’t

[wheat elbow]

Or Alecto with full wrath.

[turbid needle]

try shield heroes for a change LUL

[wheat elbow]

And don't even get me started on this one room in Tartarus that has faster enemies!

[turbid needle]

and then thanatos spawns on heated room in elysium

[wheat elbow]

SCREW THAT GUY!

[turbid needle]

and you're already like "Than, just end me already by yourself"

[wind vale]

in elysium that mostly makes it another survival room

[turbid needle]

@wheat elbow That's my line every time I seeh im

[woven kindle]

Does anyone else just let than kill enemies instead of bother trying to outpace him?

[drowsy plover]

sometimes I just let him

yeah lmao

[woven kindle]

At 120 heat i meant

[wheat elbow]

He isn't even good at doing that anymore.

[drowsy plover]

I'm like "this is not my day, I am not being reckless for you buddy"

[wheat elbow]

Which wasn't even my problem with meeting him.

Thanatos isn't annoying because you may or may not get a heart out of him, depending on how stupid the game wants to be in that situation

and it can be super stupid by forcing you through armored enemies, for example.

It is the fact that Thanatos forces you to go through 3-5 times the amount of enemies!

[turbid needle]

basically that

[wind vale]

my problem with him is more the shield and knockback from him if i actually try to kill

[wheat elbow]

Especially on heated runs, having to mow through 100 enemies is no rare occurance

[turbid needle]

it's like super version of hades 60 seconds

except it doesn't end until all die but Than is your timer

[woven kindle]

Yeah but aren't thanatos rooms usually much much bigger? or maybe I m just lucky

[wheat elbow]

You are lucky.

[turbid needle]

You are lucky probably

[wheat elbow]

Especially in Tartarus, you can get stuck with him in some of the smaller rooms.

[turbid needle]

yes, you can stuck with him in like super tight rooms

[wind vale]

in that tiny c shaped room

aaaaahhhhhh

[woven kindle]

Oh yeah that would suck

[wheat elbow]

In Asphodel and Elysium, there are next to no small rooms, so you are usually okay there in this regard.

[turbid needle]

and then you get 20 numbskulls spawn at once LUL

on whipped frenzy +50 and +2 insurance ...

[woven kindle]

I don't think he's popped up in tartarus on my heated runs so I guess I should be happy about that

[wheat elbow]

On heated runs, he usually creeps up on you if you make it all the way to Elyisum

to end a promising looking run before you can find the boss.

[turbid needle]

yeah...

[wheat elbow]

To go back to the topic of replayability, I think adding new bosses would be one of the greatest things to add right now.

I can only speak for myself here, but I never

never

[woven kindle]

I agree, would also love all the new dialogue

[wheat elbow]

look forward to meeting the Hydra.

[woven kindle]

Telling orpheus our tall tales of beating new mythical monsters would be fun

[wheat elbow]

Yeah!

Same for Elysium.

Elysium could be crazy in terms of variety. All the different heroes we could end up meeting there!

I feel like 3 bosses per biome, with Hades waiting after the temple of styx is a pretty decent thing to look at.

[woven kindle]

Maybe a different boss if you run into the butterfly miniboss instead of Minotaur

[turbid needle]

Than is usually that guy who starts to appear in worst place possible... and Elysium is place where things get quite grindy...

hoenstly, I prefer Styx encounters to Elysium ones

[wheat elbow]

I would like Achilles to be a boss fight in Elysium. Hades could just order him to do it like he does with Meg.

And he uses the same weapons as Theseus

[turbid needle]

@wheat elbow yes

[wheat elbow]

so the fight and aesthetics would be similar in a way like the furys being similiar to one another.

And just think of all the dialogue options!

[hearty pilot]

achilles and patroclus tag team fight?

[woven kindle]

Oh lord I hope we don't fight best boy achilles 😢

[wheat elbow]

NOW THAT

is cool.

[hearty pilot]

:o

[turbid needle]

and it could add text, looks like Theseus suck by Hades

and him being in the Judgement room when he hears that

oh yes...

[hearty pilot]

we reunite best gay boys only to fight them

[wheat elbow]

That would be some great story telling right there!

I would love the Hades out of that!

[hearty pilot]

i think i would want different movesets from achilles/patroclus if they were an alt elysium boss battle

[wheat elbow]

Then there is the potencial to just add more helpful NPCs into the game like Patroclus and Sisyphus.

[hearty pilot]

but i cant remember which weapons they used in their myths

[wheat elbow]

Nice guys that just help you with your task in one way or the next

Achilles is usually seen using spear and shield, he also has these in the game.

Patroclus gave the broken spear point, so that basically sets him up for a spear as well I think.

Which, in my book, would be fine because it would really make the three bosses feel similar yet different like the three furies.

If purposely done with style, that is a very great design choice imo.

And why stop there? Instead of Asterius, why not bring another big bruiser to the mix? We were talking about Hercules in the game already.

[hearty pilot]

hercules along with whom, though?

[wind vale]

he is on olymp

[hearty pilot]

or herakles, rather

[wheat elbow]

Not sure if that is confirmed by ingame canon.

[stable oyster]

Ok neat secret boss idea. After zag fills the mirror completely with darkness, his reflection jumps out and attacks him

[wheat elbow]

And while hje should be Herakles, I think, they called him Hercules anyway.

[turbid needle]

Hercules... that could be good Final Boss Kappa

[hearty pilot]

zag seems to think herakles in elysium

zag called him herakles

[wheat elbow]

I trust you on that.

[stable oyster]

Can confirm they do

[turbid needle]

true, Heracles and Hercules are different pronounciation because of the culture differences if I remember

[hearty pilot]

if we stick with the theme of former enemies allying together

[wheat elbow]

Also, I don't think that we truly have the full game structure in place already.

[hearty pilot]

hercules = roman; herakles = greek

[wheat elbow]

I still think that there will be at least one more biome.

[wind vale]

quite sure it was something like hades being annoyed that he isnt there because hes zeus favourite and that stuff

[hearty pilot]

who would go with herakles?

[wheat elbow]

Nobody needs to go with him.

[turbid needle]

^

He is his own 1 man army persona

[hearty pilot]

hmm but i feel like they should maintain “heroes defeated”

[wheat elbow]

Don't get too married to such details.

[turbid needle]

can't they just tweak it so that it says Hero defeated ?

[wheat elbow]

I mean, look at all the messages Cerberus shows once you

"vanquished"

him

[hearty pilot]

so theseus/asterius, achilles/patroclus, herakles/another hero. all of which would fall under heroes defeated

well it also says (not really)

[wind vale]

i think i have seen the suggestion about the 3 judges(or whatever they were called) as a fight - would like that

[hearty pilot]

the judges?

aren’t those just the erinyes?

which are the furies

[wind vale]

nah

i think one of them was king minos?

[hearty pilot]

ohhh

like for sentencing

of souls

midas

was one of them

[turbid needle]

and he would petrify you into golden statue...

[wheat elbow]

You know what?

King Minos to me would be an amazing helpful NPC of sorts.

[wind vale]

Minos, Aeacus and Rhadamanthus

[safe trellis]

@wheat elbow, thanks for the heads-up but please remove your latest reply from #hades-feedback. The channel is not for user-to-user communications.

[hearty pilot]

wait was it minos or midas?

[wheat elbow]

@safe trellis Excuse me, what?

Oh, I was thinking of King Midas.

The guy with the touch of gold.

[safe trellis]

@wheat elbow the #hades-feedback channel is only for feedback aimed at the developers, not for informing other users of what's going on in other channels.

[hearty pilot]

i mean its only one portion of his suggestion

and its not really the focus

[safe trellis]

Yeah, it's not a huge deal. Just saying.

[wheat elbow]

I am not quite understanding to whom I am replying?

[hearty pilot]

(imo daddy you dont have to remove anything from #hades-feedback)

anyway.

[wheat elbow]

Okay, cool.

[hearty pilot]

was midas or minos the third judge?

[turbid needle]

Minos was the king concerned with the Minotaur.

[wind vale]

minos was the deciding judge after his death

midas wasnt that good a judge in life already 😄

[hearty pilot]

oh pasiphaës husband

[wheat elbow]

After his death, Minos became a judge of the dead in Hades together with Aeacus and Rhadamanthus. Rhadamanthus judged the souls of Asians, Aeacus judged Europeans, and Minos had the deciding vote.

Straight out of Wikipedia

[hearty pilot]

AORKFLGMAKAODKFMKS

thats so funny omg

[safe trellis]

Personally, I'm not really in favour of Achilles as an additional boss. I'd welcome it if he were given an expanded role in one of the locked House rooms, perhaps as a more-active sparring partner (as opposed to Skelly) in the context of specific gameplay challenges. But as a boss, I think having Theseus and Hades as two back-to-back spear-centric bosses is more than enough already. We need more weapon variety.

[hearty pilot]

i would like achilles as a boss from a narrative perspective, especially since he doesnt need to use a spear.

also, additional biomes are gonna be added between elysium and styx

also question: if we’re sticking with pure greek names in hades (herakles vs hercules), why aren’t the furies called the erinyes? i think there are some differences in the incarnations but the overall concept is the same

[wheat elbow]

@safe trellis You're a genius.

You inspired me for my next bit of feedback suggestion.

Hades using different weapons.

That way, we could get some variety in Styx as well when it comes to the boss fight.

He has so many abilities that aren't weapon centric, so only about 1/2 of his abilities would change

but that would make all the difference.

[hearty pilot]

@wheat elbow zeus mentioned that hades used varatha to slay some titans so thats prolly why. my question is why does zag have varatha now. what is hades using?

[wind vale]

i think its in the journal - he got a better version

[wheat elbow]

Whatever it is he is using, he is doing a better job than Zagreus is with Varatha.

[wind vale]

more impressive and stuff

[hearty pilot]

lmao

[wheat elbow]

His stings actually....well....sting.

He can swing it like a mad man

Praise the dogs that he doesn't ever throw that thing.

[hearty pilot]

imagine if hades would yeet his spear

shudder

[wind vale]

and if you are there with varatha you just exchange them right then? 😄

[wheat elbow]

I could see Hades blinking to his spear instead of recalling it.

Feels like something he would do.

[wind vale]

actually - i found a use for varatha

[wheat elbow]

There are plenty uses for it, most of them are underwhelming.

[wind vale]

in hunting blades build with explosive throw and mark

[wheat elbow]

My biggest gripe with the spear is how bad it becomes for heated runs.

It is too slow to keep up with frenzied enemies

and it is too one shot-damage reliant to make it interesting for runs against tanky enemies, especially with blue shields.

You could forgo your charge attacks for quick hits, but unless you get flurry jab, that isn't even safe

and unless you go super hard on your special in order to make it good

[wind vale]

i mean the only use i see is to support that(or other) cast build

[wheat elbow]

you have no special.

Thing with cast builds on a spear is that while you can do that, yes

you can also use them on an otherwise actually good weapon as well.

[turbid needle]

Quick and Massive Spin are viable.

Quick is more important.

[wind vale]

like i said - i see explosive throw as one of the best supports for it

[drowsy plover]

explosive throw with ares special is p nice

[wind vale]

sword special does the same better

compared to the spin

[wheat elbow]

Explosive throw is decent since the last update and makes the spear actually playable.

Not even good, just "playable".

[hearty pilot]

hmm i havent had any complaints with any of the weapons, but that may be because im practicing pierced butterfly runs with low heat

[wheat elbow]

Vicious Skewer is also an interesting option

but you have to go very far out of your way to make that one work.

[drowsy plover]

i used spear on an ares cast build and grabbed knockback on basic attack. that was a fun niche thing

[wheat elbow]

If you do, it's great and can result in 4 digit crits

if you don't, enjoy the feeling of being underwhelmed forever.

[wind vale]

vicious skewer is the only really unique build but just doesnt feel good enough anymore

[wheat elbow]

It is only if you have Athena special + debuff

and, ideally some way to apply weak and Aphro/Artemis duo boon.

[wind vale]

i mean sure before beefy it was too strong

but now its not really worth it - even if you get everything it doesnt feel op, which any complete build should

[wheat elbow]

Linked you a video in #self-promotion

The stars aligned in that video and it was very nice overall.

Of course, it got overshadowed by the even higher crit I did in that same boss fight with Poseidons Wrath~

[hearty pilot]

how on earth can you feasibly do chaos’ dash self damage boon

[drowsy plover]

shield

[stable oyster]

Do t dash

Or shield

[hearty pilot]

thats the sole reason im running only one tenebrous veil

[stable oyster]

If you run 2 I’m 90% sure the game never gives you any dmg chaos curses

[hearty pilot]

oh?

interesting

[wheat elbow]

I never tried that out. If that's the case, that'd be neat. Would make Tenebrous Veil a bit less terrible.

[drowsy plover]

can you (without veil) run out of boon options for a single god if taken enough?

I assume it only pops up if they can offer you 3 boons

[wheat elbow]

Yes and no.

[stable oyster]

Most gods have repeating boon options

[wheat elbow]

Theoreticly, I think that you could with Aphrodite because she has one of the smallest god pools in the game.

[stable oyster]

Like sunken treasure

[drowsy plover]

can you elaborate, Ichoren?

okay! thanks

[wheat elbow]

But for that, you'd still need to meet her more than 10 times or so.

Also, wait, what? I am very sure that only Poseidon has a "repeating boon option" like sunken treasure.

[drowsy plover]

what are the others similar to sunken treasure? I thought that was the only one of it's type, unless you count the + ambrobosia

[stable oyster]

Actually I think the removed a lot of the repeated ones now that I think of it

[drowsy plover]

ambrobosia 😂 oops.

[stable oyster]

Athena used to have one as well

The money one

[wheat elbow]

What I have seen happening is that I got to styx to buy a third hammer and it ended up only offering two options.

[drowsy plover]

interesting! I picked hades up after big bad update

[wheat elbow]

The hammers have very small pools and a lot of boons are exclusive to one another.

[drowsy plover]

gotcha

[stable oyster]

I want double shot + triple shot!

[drowsy plover]

oh! that reminded me of a feedback I thought needed bringing up

when you take mirage flight with the shield, it slows the flight speed down (as explained in the tooltip) but on the boon that allows the special to hit 8 enemies, it doesn't mention speeding up the shield?

but I took them both and my shield flew v fast.

[stable oyster]

Hm, worth posting

[drowsy plover]

does anyone know the name of that upgrade?

[wheat elbow]

Yeah, I think that the boon that makes the shield hit more targets also makes it fly faster. Can't remember the....

.....dread flight?

Could it be that?

[stable oyster]

Yea

[drowsy plover]

could be! but yeah, it doesn't mention the speed up. it's not an issue actually, but not having that information made the option less attractive.

I thought since my shield was flying slowly, it might be a poor choice

[wheat elbow]

I feel like Mirage Flight without the slow down would actually be better.

[stable oyster]

Yes

[wheat elbow]

Would make combining it with either Dread Flight and/or Explosive Return much more useful.

[drowsy plover]

I think the slow down is supposed to be the trade off, but it's not exceptionally strong anyway, I don't think it needs the slow down

[stable oyster]

Slowdown is to nerf it

[drowsy plover]

well, with mirage + dread flight it had no speed loss, it was faster than the base throw

[stable oyster]

I actually think it’s very strong

[drowsy plover]

my thought on shield special = it's for applying statuses

[wheat elbow]

On most runs, I take mirage flight only to have an extra tool for debuffs. If I get something like Dio special on it, it's neat.

[stable oyster]

Yea but privileged

[drowsy plover]

I prefer ares special, but it doesn't have the same debuff time

[wheat elbow]

If you already have explosive return though, there is no point to taking either dread flight or mirage flight.

[drowsy plover]

explosive return never seemed viable to me

is it for face-throwing, point blank?

[wheat elbow]

Like, real talk: I think Explosive Return is the only Hammer boon in the game that is a stand alone game winner.

[drowsy plover]

whaaat

[stable oyster]

The god build for shield is explosive return, suddenly Rush, mirage flight

[wheat elbow]

Almost all other hammer upgrades are bad and/or need other hammer upgrades to really shine.

If I start with Explosive Return, I usually end up winning without wanting or needing a second hammer.

@drowsy plover I got my 120 heat victory in this update with explosive return.

[stable oyster]

I think that sudden Rush is on the same lever but I’m biased

Level*

[wheat elbow]

Yes and no.

It is neat by itself, yes

But if you get it, you also want Minotaur Rush.

[stable oyster]

Just remember that you are 100% invincible while you rush

[wheat elbow]

Yes, and it's amazing, but it isn't a stand alone hammer boon for me.

Take the Bow for example, if you go for one special boon, you want to get the other one.

If you go for one attacking boon, you want one or two more to maximize.

Same with the sword, you either use the two special ones or you are being stuck with underwhelming attack related ones.

The rail has a lot great stand alone hammers that still want you to take more of those great stand alone options.

[drowsy plover]

for sword, I typically take dash + flurry, it keeps me mobile

[wheat elbow]

Like heavy slug, tripple bomb, invigorating blast.

Now imagine that same run, sword dash/flurry

[stable oyster]

You could go wii tennis build

[wheat elbow]

but when you press a button after dashing, you actually deal damage.

That's explosive return.

Wii Tennis?

[stable oyster]

Take deflect attacks with flurry blade

[drowsy plover]

I did that 😂

I actually wound up with athena attack, special and cast on a shield run, just for fun

the most redundant use of athena, ofc

[wind vale]

hmm i usually prefer dread flight+dashing wallop on shield and most others compliment it pretty well

[wheat elbow]

Dashing Wallop lost it's luster to me this update.

[wind vale]

i mostly use it because i want athena on many enemies

aphrodite

i mean why am i saying such strange things

like aphrodite attack, ares special and athena dash combine so good

with all their duos available and good

i think any 3rd hammer works nicely with them as well

but the real thing for me is that the shield doesnt really need hammers like the other weapons do

i mean shield always works while the other 3 are a pain without one to make the run(and adjust stuff to it) and the spear kinda always laggin behind

[drowsy plover]

not a complaint, because I love the shield, but yeah. I feel like bull rush is kind of a free hammer ability

I'd consider a charged attack that shields you, without the dash, to be good, but with the dash (& aoe & knockback!) it's incredible.

[cloud adder]

I am a mainly shield player, completed act 3 with 120 heat, and almost never use bull rush... I guess i am really missing out

[drowsy plover]

well, it doesn't have the same dps, and the shield is still solid without it, but yeah it's incredibly useful and versatile

you can charge a bull rush to go through a screen full of projectiles and close the gap with a ranged enemy safely. It takes the hell out of bullet hell.

[cloud adder]

So does just tossing your shield repeatedly, which is what I do. Charging head first into the enemies seems dangerous!

[stable oyster]

Actually, you are completely invincible while charging into enemies

So it’s about as safe

[wheat elbow]

The thing with the shields bull rush is that you don't really rush "into" enemies.

You either go through them or push them with you.

The shields very definition is that a strong offense is also your best defense.

[cloud adder]

I really should be trying that more often... I mostly wrote it out early on and only use it in the early game

[wheat elbow]

Shield for me for the longest time was just dash attacking like crazy

which is still a viable strategy.

That of course led to me neglecting the bull rush. 120 heat attempts made me re-embrace that attack though.

Same goes for Explosive Return, which I shunned for the longest time.

[hearty pilot]

hmm i cant post images but i can confirm that running two tenebrous veils can still leave with one option where doing an action harms you

[gloomy scroll]

ok so I see people being so good and so fast at the game, what is the trick to getting so good

[wheat elbow]

Push-ups, sit-ups and pleeeenty of juice.

On a real note, it really just comes down to playing regularly. Practice makes you better, both in terms of gameplay skill as well as understanding game mechanics.

[gloomy scroll]

I see. Also, is that very last mirror option literally just meant to be a darkness dump or what, I genuinely can't tell

[hearty pilot]

i think so

fated authority has a really high cap

[gloomy scroll]

ok I will max all the others first then, I figured I would see what it was but..

[cloud adder]

The rerolls do matter, but are really expensive, would go for that last

[gloomy scroll]

do they like reroll to better things?> Nevermind I read up on it

[wheat elbow]

They just reroll a blue room reward for a possible other blue room reward and gold rewards into possible others.

There are some minor things to know about these, but that is the basic idea.

[turbid needle]

yup, you usually want to reroll gold since well... if I remember, you get about 80 gold reward which is lower amount than pom (100 shop price) or health (125) , not even talking about the god boon (150g) or hammer(200g)

but you can only reroll to same tier, so unless you have premium vintage (Dionysus Boon converting Ambrosia to max health) you don't want to do that, also you're gonna usually lose about 3 rerolls for rerolling to that, so keep that in mind

[wheat elbow]

It is 100 gold per room now.

[wet dagger]

the most ridiculous use of reroll is to get some Heat in Tartarus.... because it doesn't appear naturally, but a reroll can absolutely force that door to appear

[wheat elbow]

Only if you reroll blue rooms though, which you never should.

Once I realized that, I never did it again.

Except for one occassion and one occassion only:

Getting Ambrosia because you have Premium Vintage.

@wet dagger I like that suggestion you just made.

Some lines like ".......lost it's taste"

Oh, or maybe "Tastes better when Dusa makes them."

[wet dagger]

YES!!!!

my dude, so glad I'm not the only one

or maybe they could recycle that choked weeze as he gulps the heal in Styx

[gloomy scroll]

ok so question, is it more worth it to dodge shops earlier and save a lot for styx or to spend a little here and there

[wet dagger]

depends on your run needs?

[turbid needle]

I'm gonna be like... it depends

[wet dagger]

Charon Well do show up in chambers......

[turbid needle]

saving is good for the Styx, but by then you should be basically having almost full build

and needing that "saving grace"

[gloomy scroll]

ok so basically no need to go crazy saving if you need to actually flesh out a build

[turbid needle]

hardly ever you need more than 2 hammers

or 2 hermes boons I guess ?

[wet dagger]

wait for hammers in Styx - 2 lvls in one go

[turbid needle]

you get like a lot of hammer options even if you don't want them so...

[wet dagger]

I find it depends on what weapon......

sometimes want as many hammers as possible, to speed up the hittin into them dyin bit

[gloomy scroll]

ok I'm actually v happy I got the auto revenge duo cause I started with a meh ares pick of 100+dmg revenge

[turbid needle]

start with revenge boon ?

how bad is your luck

[gloomy scroll]

pretty

[wheat elbow]

Bow Attack run: Give me all the hammers.

Shield? One explosive return is a won run.

Like, the Bowis actually the only weapon that can have one of it's abilities be affected by three hamers.

You can have explosive shot, perfect shot and double shot

Stacking all these three together with a strong god boon, your attack shreds like hell.

[turbid needle]

"the hammer is actually the only weapon that can have one of it's abilities be affected by three hamers." -> Feels like me when talking sometimes

well, I found myself that good boon synergy just does wonders

[gloomy scroll]

how good is priveleged status in practice because at face value it seems mediocre, unless having a cast stuck in you counts as 1 of 2

[native ether]

its very good

often you can easily pick up 2 status curses

Weak and Poison together makes it stupid effective

[gloomy scroll]

okay

[gloomy scroll]

+3 casts and true shot feelsgoodonion

[hearty pilot]

privileged status is extremely useful

[tardy talon]

Any advice for using the bow? Can't get it to work reliably for me at all

tend to end up leaning on the special + something like poison for damage

[wheat elbow]

Practise aiming and dash attacking.

[kind fiber]

Yeah, dash attacking with the bow is important

Athena/aphrodite/Artemis tend to be the strongest attack boons on her

Artemis/aphrodite as a build tends to be pretty strong.

[wet dagger]

bow's charge does the charging faster if immediately done after dash!

which is weirdly hard to learn... because keep dashing and aiming in wrong direction >_<;;;

[wheat elbow]

I actually had a super easy time learning that

but I think that it helps a great deal that I dash with RMB.

Cast on RMB never sat right for me.

[tardy talon]

cheers for the advice, got the clear on the bow that time. Ended up being my fastest technically, but got kinda lucky with the sack spawn. Cheesed it slightly with fast shot + double shot + a heavy artemis build

[unkempt pagoda]

@wheat elbow i'm not entirely sure why this suggestion is in feedback, as it seems more like advice to players than feedback to the developers

[vagrant hearth]

Oof, I didn't do as well at the heat challenge as I expected

I'm not used to fighting Tisiphone yet

[hearty pilot]

i find it really helpful to always stay behind her

[cloud adder]

Getting tisiphone is unlucky

I lost to Hades at the heat challenge while only playing with keyboard in mouse before, it was so fun

[vagrant hearth]

I thought I'd at least reach Asphodel :P But I'm used to keyboard/mouse too

[hearty pilot]

whats the heat challenge?

[wet dagger]

isnt it what they had in Pax booth? for players to try and beat on high heat settings?

[errant narwhal]

yep

apparently its 50 heat

[cloud adder]

50 heat, preset to what they chose. But you do get maximum Darkness for the mirror and every heirloom is level 3

[wet dagger]

so what was the fancy prize? a shirt? some stickers?

[cloud adder]

Beating act 1 gives you your choice of shirt, PS4 copy of Bastion or Vita copy. Act 2 gives you another choice and Hades himself gives you all 3

[wet dagger]

neat!

[cloud adder]

Honestly, the best part was playing with a crowd that's cheering for you

[eternal stag]

what was their 50 heat build?

[wet dagger]

kinda hoping they'll bring that to Pax East next year! I wanna try rando build

[cloud adder]

I didn't get to see the specifics, but it was a little taste of everything

[native ether]

curious what their choice of setting is :p

and how much of a troll they were with Tenebrous Veil if they picked it :p

[cloud adder]

They didn't, it's a fair 50 heat run

[wheat elbow]

@unkempt pagoda Well if you make a game, you want the controls to be fluid and intuitive.

The feedback was about how I think that one change to the base PC controls might make the game easier to pick up for new players.

[vagrant hearth]

If they let me try again tomorrow I might... I have no illusions of being able to get to Hades since I'm not used to playing with heat, but I should be able to pass act 1, dangit

[cloud adder]

Good luck!

[wind vale]

yay finally got a no hitter vs the duo with the bow at 120 heat - looking good but i guess its time for a break now 🙂

[woven kindle]

So it seems if you pick a room with health restore as the reward (food) in erebus, and you require no healing, you literally can't progress because the rooms don't let you not pick up the reward, but you can't pick up the food because you're full hp :/

Solution is to redo the room (quit and come back in) and just take at least 1 hit so you don't get stuck (RIP butterfly for this encounter I guess)

[wind vale]

good you found a way out - remember to report these bugs with F10

i guess if you had the getting heals from enemies in the same situation you could really lock yourself there

like if you took damage and healed to full from random pickups

shouldnt be able to just quit then but have to give up

[woven kindle]

I mean its the first time in around 50 runs that I've even seen the health restore as a room reward, but I guess its cause of the 120 heat so I'm in erebus more 🤷

[wind vale]

i think it can only come up if you get out of a erebus room

and most would try not to take it

so really rare find

[wheat elbow]

I agree, never taken that room before myself.

[woven kindle]

Eh its part of the blue pool, which usually has 0 effect on the current run (unless you have ambriosa upgrades) and I really don't need shards/keys/skulls anymore

[wind vale]

not 100% sure but i think i may have seen it competing with good rewards as well

but i could just be imagining things here

[wheat elbow]

Pretty sure you are for I have never seen that.

[gloomy scroll]

wowee must be my day. I go sword, and then I think to myself let's just get better while grinding darkness, so I put 50 on more enemy dmg. I get athena dash, +3 dashes, artemis crit+ attack dmg and wow I shred and get shredded

[wheat elbow]

Not sure if "getting shredded" is good or bad in this context now.

[gloomy scroll]

definitely bad as I get hit once and take 60 being in elysium

but also I just got a monstrous boon choice and have no clue what to take

as I have the choice of the Ath/Art duo or Ath/Aphro duo or an extra death defy, and seeing how this has gone I just don't know what to go with

I feel like I just all-in for the damage, but 60% slower enemy projectiles sounds really good

[gloomy scroll]

wow that's annoying I didn't quite play careful enough and choked on the last little bit of the last fight

[wheat elbow]

That can happen if the pressure runs high.

[gloomy scroll]

I was getting oneshot and I had a couple death defiances but it's just frustrating because that was my first ever heat run that did nearly that well, but I guess I just wait for the blessing of RNG once again

[turbid needle]

yeah, +500% damage sucks

ironically +% damage increase still seems better than some of the options of the pact of punishment...

or I would rather say many of those lol

[wheat elbow]

We had that topic earlier.

Looking at each Pact of Punishment individually is a very special topic by itself.

The situation becomes spicey if you look at more than one in conjunction.

Enemies dealing 600% damage total? Just don't get hit, the game is able to make that happen and HP drops can come in spades.

Now enemies deal 600% damage AND move 50% faster? Now this is the territory of heresy.

Enemies deal more damage, are faster AND there are more of them?

Good luck. Enemies deal more damage, are faster, there are more of them AND you get no heals? 'twas nice knowing you.

[wind vale]

depends what you are trying

you could try to get away from theseus as much as possible and kill asterius solo first and then solo theseus after

since there are no adds anymore after one of them dies that may be a bit easier to do

other than that know their attack patterns and how to dodge

and that they change a bit when they change phases(and you may want to wait getting theseus below 50% before you kill asterius if you go with the earlier strategy for this reason)

the timing on theseus spear throw is also a bit tricky - dont try to run too early or he will hit you - as i understand he pre-aims using your speed and direction a bit before he actually attacks

its really just practice dodging their stuff

(i also personally hate his blocking btw)

the easiest to perfect avoiding all their hits is probably the bow

but really all definitely work

the shield may be easiest after all if you use the blocking well

like in many situations it is possible to just bull rush through everything and avoid all damage while dealing a little

a bit boring but works

if necessary you can just bring enough health/death defiances and force your way through

but since the game isnt over at that point it will only help temporarily

or otherwise a generally strong build

with whatever weapon you can do best

oh the spear is the one i really dont like myself but its definitely possible to make it work

easiest to deal damage at range for me would be something like explosive throw with a good boon on it

like maybe artemis

aphrodite would also be fine

dont really know how the range damage trinket helps too much since the required range is really large

[wheat elbow]

The spear is the worst weapon in the game and distant memory pretty much one of the worst keepsakes in the game.

[cloud adder]

I think it's my second favorite after shield

But everyone has a different playstyle

[wind vale]

it is definitely good enough to make it but i also say its the worst to me

[wheat elbow]

In terms of "fun", shield and rail are pretty much my favorites. The rest of the weapons can be fun with certain hammer upgrades.

In terms of "being good", Sword and Board reign supreme.

[wind vale]

to me fun are sword and rail, but bow and shield are stronger

[wheat elbow]

Bow for me is only really "fun" if I get explosive shot and double or tripple shot together.

If not, it's just stressful.

[wind vale]

or go for a special build?

but mostly yea

[wheat elbow]

I don't usually do that and when I try, it fails and ends up being mediocre.

On two of my recent runs, I wanted to do a bow special aphrodite charm run.

Failed to get the legendary both times

[wind vale]

its way too vulnerable but nice damage

[wheat elbow]

or any hammer special updates for that matter.

Isn't even vulnerable because it flinches enemies.

[wind vale]

like ares special with athena dash and duo is huge(and ares doom increases)

or dionysus poison build+somehow apply weak

not really that hard to get - then just get more poms since they seem to scale better than with other builds

[gloomy scroll]

ok this time for sure

I'm down to 15 heat into damage

and I have 350 hp a dd and skelly's with a nutty sword build. this time. for sure. wish me luck guys

[wind vale]

gl

[gloomy scroll]

aaaand I got nuked

3 attacks to kill my first life, 2 for the second and ended on a oneshot. I need to play him way more careful

I do like the challenge that heat presents even if I know I could have won with that build normally because you have to play a lot better

[cloud adder]

I loved the experience of challenging myself to 120 heat

Every act seemed unbeatable, until i beat it

[gloomy scroll]

yeah even if I had the heat to spend I'm nowhere near skilled enough for that

[cloud adder]

If you stick to it, you will be

[gloomy scroll]

just need practice 🙂

[cloud adder]

Exactly

Something I absolutely adore about this game's design is that unlike other roguelikes, it really doesn't let you break it. I mean, sure, you could have some amazing builds, but the fact that you can't get multiple upgrades to the same move forces you to just get better at the game's mechanics

[gloomy scroll]

for sure, it really makes me think whenever I see a possible swap. even if sometimes it's a rarer boon it might not help keep me alive as well, so you need to weigh things carefully

on that note, I still don't have much experience with some boons, is it better to take ares cast or dash if I'm just getting started this run? It's looking like it'll be a dash attack heavy run and I don't know it it's the best possible option

[cloud adder]

I like ares dash more, but my playstyle rarely uses cast at all

[unkempt pagoda]

depends on if you want to use boiling blood at all

[wind vale]

they are both ok for different things but it seems to me they would both get in the way

[unkempt pagoda]

also, get ready for screen clutter on either

[wind vale]

like i would want a better dash for a dash attack build

[gloomy scroll]

veryy true

I took the dash but am looking to replace it if it comes up

[unkempt pagoda]

i'd take ares cast if you want to aim for the duo with artemis

[wind vale]

but also some cast to stick in stronger enemies for boiling blood

but yea cast is only really good in that duo which makes its own build

[unkempt pagoda]

i'd take ares dash if i want to go ares legendary

[wind vale]

still ok otherwise and helps vs these damn shields

[gloomy scroll]

ok so I've just cleared a room and got offered aph dash. good pivot or no?

[wind vale]

not sure - its surely better than ares

but for a build - no idea

[gloomy scroll]

I'm taking it because better dmg and I get weak effect from it

[wind vale]

yea its generally good

[gloomy scroll]

I should mention that when I said I was going to have a dash attack build I had accepted 4 rooms of blind clear rewards in exchange for +116% dash atk dmg

[unkempt pagoda]

i still want to see if i can manage to have a vengeful mood build with all four revenge boons

[wind vale]

which weapon?

[gloomy scroll]

swoord

also first room boon was art with crit + dmg on attack

[wind vale]

thats nice if you get the hammer

[wheat elbow]

Cast usage usually depends on the weapon and the run for me.

[gloomy scroll]

that's what I'm hoping

[wheat elbow]

If I play the Rail, the cast becomes an integral part of my strategy

[gloomy scroll]

I've had it the last couple after all

[wheat elbow]

which is one of the reason why I love the rail so much.

It is the only weapon in the game that uses Attack, Dash, Cast, Wrath and Special to full potencial at almost all times.

Special is your highest damage dealer, cast your second highest while you have a natural distance to your enemies to make it safe to use

and it flinches enemies so that they remain still for your special to hit (for increased damage)

[wind vale]

i often ignore special on rail

[wheat elbow]

with attacks and dashes serving as filler.

If you get a good run that allows you to do that, sure. my runs usually are not that run.

[wind vale]

or full focus but then i dont really use the attack

[wheat elbow]

There need to be way too many factors for the rail attack to be good

while only a very certain few special oines are all it takes.

[wind vale]

just about any hammer

[wheat elbow]

With the rail, an early tripple bomb can set you up for pretty much forever,

[gloomy scroll]

double edge get

[wind vale]

like shotgun can or flurry fire or triple bomb or single shot if you like that

[gloomy scroll]

how does the rail play? I haven't really used it much

[wind vale]

lots of styles

thats what makes it great

i really love the shotgun build

but the rest i listed is also really nice

they just play very different

and want different gods

[gloomy scroll]

neat, I'll have to check it out

also I may have too much damage, I just killed Alecto in ~20 seconds

[wind vale]

she deserves it

[gloomy scroll]

she does

[wind vale]

im thinking - should i try to get a sword dash attack build with poseidon and zeus duo and that stuff?

[gloomy scroll]

that sounds interesting

just a matter of does it work with bosses

[wind vale]

it does now

[gloomy scroll]

well then sure

[wind vale]

also a supposedly good combo for quick fire rail btw

next to dionysus or just plain zeus

also gotta try that

[gloomy scroll]

ok this is hard now

heroic hunter dash or 135% extra crit damage on weak enemies? my only crit chance is coming from the 15% boon

all the choices, but more raw damage seemed the way to go with rather low crit

[wheat elbow]

Dup Boon for surel.

[wind vale]

actually not sure

[gloomy scroll]

ok no I do regularly upwards of 300 damage on a dash attack now this was no mistake

[wind vale]

id need another curse to safely apply(maybe with cast) in combination with aphro dash

else id replace it as well

[gloomy scroll]

understandable

[gloomy scroll]

BOOM first no heat run back won

[wary knot]

So I was fighting the last boss with a rank 1 Broken Spearpoint keepsake. In the 2nd phase I walked into an urn, got hit for 45 and stunned, then immediately chopped for 30 which killed me. Does the spearpoint invincibility have a cooldown on multiple hits or not work on the urn stuns? Or did I just get unlucky and the 0.5 second invincibility window wasn't quite long enough?

I felt like the 2 hits were literally back to back but human perception is quite flawed in that regard

[gloomy scroll]

don't know what to tell you there, I haven't used it, but it's likely the delay wasn't enough to get caught by the trinket invuln

[wet dagger]

Ares' "Curse of Vengeance" ... when Zag takes damage, all around him get the D-O-O-M ..... does it sometimes pop up the invulnerable bubble too?

because pretty sure didn't have Fallen Warrior keepsake, but after running around getting hit ...a lot... suddenly that lil clear bubble was around Zag?

[wind vale]

there is a general shield if you take a huge amount of damage it seems

[stable oyster]

If you get hit a lot you will get the bubble regardless

[wet dagger]

Excellent to know!! i guess even the game is like "plz get better... here's some protection for 5 seconds... it hurts to watch"

[gloomy scroll]

can confirm if you get nugged for like 50+ you get a temp shield

happens a lot on 600% dmg taken

[wheat elbow]

@wary knot I had it happen to me that an Elysium Witch hit me with it's cluster attack and I actually suffered all the damage from that, initial hit + each of the smaller spreading once befoire the spear point even went off.

Not answering your question with that, but it is something to consider, spearpoint ain't no all purpose perfect defense sadly.

[wary knot]

Hm, wonder if there's a delay to the invincibility, although that rather defeats the purpose of the keepsake if it's noticeably long

Still, seems real handy for Styx and the Big Boss

[wheat elbow]

That Elysium Witch Projectiles is arguably the only one that can deal damage instantaneous like that.

And it really was instantaneous. My screen was flashing bright red for an instant as that multihit happened.

[wary knot]

I wonder if that's intended or not

[native ether]

if you drop I think at least from above 50% health to under 33% health (when your healthbar starts pulsing red and get the bleeding edge on your screen) you get a small invincibility shield

[hearty pilot]

does the lambent plume adjust for pain tolerance and shared misery?

also for whatever reason i always want to call it the lamprey plume

[wheat elbow]

I have only used it once in this update and then nevermore.

[gloomy scroll]

couldn't say, although it is definitely harder to get more value off of in later areas

[ember lotus]

Is black out really worth the boon investment? What if it just affected everything in the fog instead of just poisoned enemies?

[wheat elbow]

is 100% extra damage coming from one of the best gods in the game really worth the boon investment?

Yes.

Yes it is.

[gloomy scroll]

ok come on game you can't do me like this

you gave me BOTH Hermes legendaries in one pick!!

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/268055992871288837/618130982800982016/unknown.png

[wheat elbow]

I don't see the problem.

Being offered two beats seeing the usual....

...none.

[gloomy scroll]

it's just funny that I actually got both

honestly I would've preferred a greater evade epic to the top seeing as I'm in styx buuuuuuuut

[naive cobalt]

Hehehe

[ashen bloom]

does heat affect rarity of boons?

[autumn tapir]

no

[naive cobalt]

Not unless you have the darkness penalty, which will basically remove your boon rarity bonuses

[wheat elbow]

I never checked for that, but does the 400 Obol Hermes boon in Styx have a guaranteed greater rarity?

[gloomy scroll]

it may, that's the first time I bought it though

[wind vale]

dont remember who recommended it but fast firing rail with poseidon + duo zeus on attack is really nice, just slow to get there - thanks!

[wind vale]

doing this run i noticed that i somehow did get a knockback effect on a butterfly ball

which seems strange

didnt knock it back but it got the poseidon and zeus curses on it(and so the mirror effect)

but usually that doesnt apply to them - anyone know what circumstances can make it apply sometimes, or guesses?

nvm - got it - rupture applies but the poseidon/zeus duo doesnt - so i just needed another zeus application and that was it

[peak smelt]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/408333571799908352/618187150856552468/unknown.png

[wet dagger]

wow......

[gloomy scroll]

nice

[eternal stag]

okay, here's a question

[peak smelt]

Ye

[eternal stag]

oh not at you specifically, like. in general to the chat

though you can also answer if you know!

[peak smelt]

Sorry

[eternal stag]

you're good

i know the prerequisite on ares' end for hunting blades is only the blade cast, but the wording of hunting blades only says that it applies to your blade rifts.

if you Also had the blade dash, would the blade rifts spawned by it also be under the effects of hunting blades?

[peak smelt]

OK so, if I remember correctly, yes it does

But I'm not 101% sure

[eternal stag]

i'd test it myself but rng would have to give me hunting blades first, haha

[atomic panther]

It used to be a boon that applied to all your rifts, but since Ares's Call exists it now only applies to casts

BC having the player character auto-seek would be weird

[peak smelt]

True though

[eternal stag]

awwww

[peak smelt]

Thanks Valor

[atomic panther]

👍

[eternal stag]

i guess so but it'd be nice if it worked with your dash rifts

thanks!

[turbid needle]

Greater Recall + Blade Rift cast is mega-fun.

It's so goooood.

[limber cipher]

i keep dying.
i keep having the urge to complain that the game's too hard, then i remember im giving myself 25 heat

and have no one to blame but myself

[turbid needle]

Oof. I hope you're frequently winning your Erebus rooms.

[turbid needle]

You ever just play like a complete numbskull (I'm sorry) and throw away a run that should be an easy clear?

[wheat elbow]

Been there, yes.

[wind vale]

lol i am still on my rail run with poseidon+zeus on fast fire attack - ofc got duo, both curses but also poseidon splash and both their legendary boons - its absolutely insane by now

[turbid needle]

Zeus is stubbornly refusing to give me Lightning Strike on an Epic Swift Strike Infinity Chamber run.

[wet dagger]

me: oh well... just got into Elysium, Chaos curse should be safe to grab now....
game: hold my ambrosia

Chaos gives me heeella speed reduction, and dumps me into Asterius fight

RIP this run

[turbid needle]

Use your dashes very carefully, and good luck.

[wet dagger]

.... that run had some heat in Frenzy

it was just not meant to be

[turbid needle]

Oh, yeah, no way.

RIP

[wheat elbow]

That is why I don't enter Chaos Rooms.

Never worth the trouble.

Especially on heated runs.

Chaos is like being offered a car or a mystery box.

You know you want that car, but ANYTHING could be in the mystery box.

Most of the time, it is Chaos right hand in that box, slapping you across the face multiple times as he laughs about having been able to ruin another run for you.

[wet dagger]

see, that's how I feel about Infernal Gates!

Erebus is too much flailing in too small a space.... at least with Chaos the reward is somewhat more...eehhh. useful for sometimes waaay too easy a task

[wheat elbow]

Infernal Gates = Erebus?

I can see that.

If you have a good and safe run, it is usually worth it.

I dislike it on later floors, some of those fights just take for freakin' ever

[frosty viper]

sorry if this has been asked before or adressed in any patch notes, but what do you get for giving ambrosia repeatedly to a character?

i mean

rising their "hearts" in the codex

[wheat elbow]

Some more dialogue options, but nothing tangible aside from that. The entire "buying friendship with alcohol" system is still build and improved, so do what I do and hand out ans many bottles out until these additions/changes role around.

[frosty viper]

Yeah, I give them to the first character that appears until I run out of it

Thanks!

[stable oyster]

Remember you can gift gods as well, took me a while to figure that one out

[wheat elbow]

I noticed that early but I ended up taking the boon before offering alcohol quite a lot early on.

[stable oyster]

Also that

[frosty viper]

The wiki says nothing about the friendship systewm

Maybe it will not until it's done in the game

[stable oyster]

It gives a keepsake the first gift for everyone, then it’s just for new lines

[gloomy scroll]

It also allows you to hear ||Orpheus' Lament|| if you gift them enough

[stable oyster]

Oh yea that song also ensures you get whatever hammer upgrade you want next run

So does petting doggo

Part of a super secret karma system that runs through all of their games

It’s like how you get better hades rng if you ||save zulf|| (bastion spoiler)

[gloomy scroll]

true that

[frosty viper]

does it improve if you liberate sir gilman?

[wheat elbow]

Oy, no Pyre spoilers.

I am playing that game right now

[gloomy scroll]

nope, just if you ||take Sandra with you|| that's a pyre spoil but it's good luck

[frosty viper]

It may change once the full game is out but I liked Pyre better than Hades

[grand patrol]

same! theyre both lovely though

[frosty viper]

Yes, Hades is much more fun to play than many finished games and its still half a year or so away from release

[wheat elbow]

Hades is much more gameplay oriented than Pyre.

If I record a Pyre episode, of 40 minutes, there is maybe 10 minutes of actual "gameplay" in it

In return, it is super rich and dense in terms of character and story development. And world building too.

[native ether]

yeah pyre feels more narrative heavy than any other supergiant game (as in "time getting story vs time getting gameplay")

while i dont think that's necessarily a bad thing I do really like my gameplay, so Pyre falls a bit flatter for me (though its still a great game and granted i havent finished it yet so feedback isnt terribly relevant on it)

Hades is great and all but honestly nothing will come close to the emotions i felt staying up till 3 in the morning playing transistor for my first time

[drowsy plover]

I think we're still a ways from the completed atmosphere of hades though! I remember from the talk on Bastion that SGG tweak things to enhance the atmosphere right up til the end of development. So I think a lot of the emotional stuff isn't 'finished' yet, and we'll have that opportunity once there is a full story.

Also, Pyre should be a game that I never played or liked because I don't care for sports games, and I don't really like visual novels (or things like VNs, Banner Saga was difficult to play for me). Somehow it worked though, and it REALLY worked. SGG made me play and love a basketball game, and I'll always have faith in them after that. So tl;dr, I think that Hades is gonna have all the feels we could want, but I feel like that can't properly come together until further in development.

apologies that should've gone in discussion or even off-topic, not gameplay!

[wheat elbow]

@native ether I actually love that Pyre gameplay.

Feels fast, snappy and tactical, a lot of different variants to play as well.

A lot of cool ideas from that game I would love to see in Hades.

[native ether]

Oh I didn't mean it was bad

Just that there was imo from what I played less gameplay compared to narrative

[low iris]

any tips for beating game with 120 red skulls ?

[stable oyster]

Shield

[low iris]

what god boon do i take first ?

[stable oyster]

I like Artemis, Athena dash is also good

[low iris]

Ares ?

[stable oyster]

Ares is best for special build if you don’t take explosive return

If you do take return, it’s Athena or Artemis or Aphrodite

Basically pick the A’s

Also s big part of heated runs is selecting a load out of heat that your comfortable with

Don’t be afraid to mix and match until you have something you like best

[wheat elbow]

Good choices of keepsakes also help.

Broken Spearpoint ended up being a godsend for Styx.

[hollow minnow]

I just escaped Tartarus in my fastest time ever!!! Six minutes and forty seconds!!! 😄 😄 😄 😄 😄 😄 😄 😄 😄 😄 😄

[wheat elbow]

That's great, mate!

Don't worry, Meg will remember that and make you pay in full.

[latent lotus]

what are peoples favourites builds?
I love poseidon, he synergizes so well with himself and with artemis. Throwing out 6 of his casts, with exit wounds, that rupture, knockback and then have bonus damage for smashing things into walls. In styx I just enter rooms press B and kill everything in seconds. Problem is the build is not good against bosses. Since they are immune to knockback,

Ares and Aphrodite heat seeking blade rifts is good against everything

I found sword special with deflect means you can spam it and practically ignore most damage.

I want to experiment with dionisys . I think his poison may be better than I first though

[stable oyster]

I like Artemis offensive skills with Athena dash + the exposed debuff

Great for getting privileged status

[latent lotus]

how? Athena gives exposed? Do you use artemis marked?

[wheat elbow]

I personally like to go hard on Duo Boons/Legendaries. Some combinations are just disgustingly strong and/or fun to play.

[stable oyster]

Yea I always try to get mark

There is a boon that makes your deflect attacks give exposed, which goes towards status while also giving you more backstab dmg

[hollow minnow]

I don't mean to sound like I'm complaining, not at all, but--...does anyone think the Final Boss, and for that matter the finale biome, is just way too hard?!!? What's the point of all the poison, because I lose so much health--and in the case of last night, ALL my DD's--before I could even REACH the final boss!! I think that should be adjusted! What's the point of fighting and loosing health BEFORE the biggest battle of them all? It just seems so frusterating and meaningless to struggle for almost an hour, reach You-Know-Who, and then die IMMEDIATELY. It's so, so off-putting. It's so DISAPPOINTING. 💔

on the other hand, I had an incredible array of boons--it was Athena and she gave me one to make my Attack Deflect and I got it all the way up to Lv. 5 and it was soooo strong!!! But I died anyway 😭

[wheat elbow]

I think Styx is fine.

Good difficulty, just right.

[lost rose]

I agree the timing, at least on the Satyr attacks, is still too quick imo

[wheat elbow]

Only on the Satyrs.

And maybe the small rats

[lost rose]

Most enemies have something of a "pause" period to let you take in their locations and the room's geography before they start attacking; the Satyrs don't, which is especially punishing because of the poison

[wheat elbow]

The Snake Heads and the bothers give you ample of time. The big rats attack fast but move very slow and are purely close ranged.

[lost rose]

Except when they make big portions of the floor inaccessible with the poison shake

[wheat elbow]

The Satyr Projectiles themselves deal no damage though so even if they hit you, healing yourself up right away will not be an unfairly high amount of damage

The poison shake of the rats is actually a good point.

Still, I would say that Hades is overall in a good place.

I feel like I can go through the game somewhat stable and consistent yet still have to play cautious and engineer a good run to win.

Considering that I play the game way too much and the game is supposed to have a certain level of difiiculty, I think that we are in a mostly good place with Styx difficulty.

Small changes here and there, but aside from that, gucci.

[lost rose]

@hollow minnow Styx can definitely be very challenging depending on how long it takes you to find the satyr sack for Cerberus. I'm sorry you're feeling discouraged! My usual strategy is to take the broken spearpoint as a keepsake in Styx and against Hades - it helps to soften some of that damage, especially continuous stuff like poison. You can also focus on buffing your health, death defiances, and damage reduction by taking a lot of athena and aphrodite boons. Athena's dash is really good right now for solid protection, and the shield is a great defensive weapon choice to maybe help you push through those tougher areas.

[wheat elbow]

On the topic of the spear point

[lost rose]

I'd suggest avoiding Poms for the most part right now too

[terse tiger]

I like Styx as a refreshing change of pace late run, but I have had some moments where it seemed more punishing than it should be. By no means is it impossible, just inconsistent in it's difficultly. I find that if you are quick with curing poison, it's not too punishing. The inconsistency, I think, comes from strickly the enemies that spawn. Satyr instant spawn damage is still a problem, while rats and pots and little more than a neusence. I'm conflicted, because I love the change in pace, but I feel like it needs balancing and may even be misplaced in the flow of the run.

[wheat elbow]

I wonder how the devs are feeling about its strength.

[lost rose]

Don't waste time leveling up abilities past level 2; the diminishing returns are Real. Take boons over poms

[wheat elbow]

While I would agree with Ellis there, I do see people still having amazing runs focussing on poms.

@covert grove Basically goes super hard on them for his speed runs, which to me is still amazing.

[terse tiger]

@hollow minnow I can't agree with @lost rose hard enough. Poms are rarely the better choice, especially is you already have a couple upgrades.

More boons >>> slightly better boons

[lost rose]

If you have a lot of upgrades already stacked on one thing - like two chaos boosts to your attack - then using poms to get your attack even buffer might be a good idea, but generally more boons gives you more and better options

[wheat elbow]

Like this one for example

https://imgur.com/pR1kkOA

[terse tiger]

Hell, I know @wheat elbow will probably disagree with this, but I'll skip a pom even if it's the only damage increasing option. I'd much rather increase survivability or purchasing power than have a marginal increase in damage.

[wheat elbow]

Why would I disagree with that?

I just said myself that I myself don't go hard on poms myself.

Just acknowledged that some people do for reasons I cannot understand and get good results with it.

[terse tiger]

All I meant was I notice in the couple videos of yours I watched than you had a pretty strict "does it increase my damage?" Policy. Lol.

[wheat elbow]

That is correct!

But I do not take a lot of poms

https://imgur.com/Y79MlJY

[terse tiger]

And I guess I could have said as much, but I was referring specifically to an instance where the choice is a pom or gold/hearts

[wheat elbow]

I am usually pretty quick when it comes to rerolling HP and/or poms.

Depends on the run at the time.

An early pom for a good boon can be great.

For example, most of the wrath effects benefit greatly from an early pom.

[terse tiger]

I agree - I especially like and upgraded Zues attack and any fast attack build.

[wheat elbow]

Dionysus wrath effect usually gets 4 damage per tick per stack for a pom.

Common, thats 10 to 14, epic 14 to 18

both very big increases.

[terse tiger]

Didn't realize that increase was by 4. That's huge!

[wheat elbow]

Only for the wrath effect.

For the special and attack. it's usually 2.

For the dash, 1 most of the time

Poseidons Wrath Effect also gets a sizeable damage boost.

[naive cobalt]

Personally I have very little trouble against Hades or Styx with 15 or less heat

[wheat elbow]

Casts usually as well.

[naive cobalt]

I'm playing 25 heat atm and feel like I can't win without good boons

[terse tiger]

Most I have done was 30, and that was with an amazing Area cast build. It felt like cheating, honestly. Lol

[wheat elbow]

I beat the game at 120 heat and it was an absolute struggle to get there imo.

One guy in here beat the game at 120 heat with all weapons.

[naive cobalt]

I assumed you were like the only person to have a 120 heat run

It looked insane

[native ether]

I have a 120 run but it was before Styx. Need to do it again I suppose, but the strategy I used I don't think is viable anymore.

[wheat elbow]

@naive cobalt This was @light nova https://imgur.com/a/Fw5Xllf

[native ether]

On poms... Taking a pom in most cases doesn't offer near as much of a damage increase as taking another boon. There's exceptions to that rule but usually isn't. I personally prefer either additional health, or a boon that can give me a duo or legendary.

Times I'll take poms though are:

• Poison or Pressure Points focused runs.
• Blade Rift focused runs (only if I already have at least Hunting Blades)
• If I have Sweet Nectar.
• If I have a strong wrath effect that does lots of damage with a large percentile increase. (Usually Wraths)

[wheat elbow]

I would also add casts to that.

Athenas can usually get like 50 extra damage with one pom

that's decent.

[native ether]

That's true. Cast based runs seem to benefit the most off poms.

[wheat elbow]

Another thing that serves as an argument against boons is that, especially if you play like me and hog all the boons you can get

poms become worth less because you have a high chance of not being able to put that pom into the boon you want.

Grabbing a pom and having to chose between upgrading Holy Shield, Aphrodite Wrath or Brilliante Riposte?

Yeah, not that great.

[covert grove]

@wheat elbow Poms 4 life

[wheat elbow]

That's your life motto, ain't it?

Going to pay you a visit one day, mate.

I will go straight for your fridge, as if you and I are life long friends and I already know what I'll find.

The thing's gonna be full of poms.

And pom juice.

[native ether]

poms aren't bad if you play what I'd call "tall" instead of "wide" (less boons, more upgrades)

I generally don't find that a good way to play though due to how random and diminishing I find poms to be (granted that is more personal, the fact that others disagree means it's relatively balanced, but I'd not be against seeing buffs to poms)

[wheat elbow]

I agree.

[native ether]

Slight buffs to poms could quickly change that though imo. (Which I'd love to see cause I'd love to pick one or two boons and focus on maxing poms)

That would also really improve Sweet Nectar

[turbid needle]

problem is that ti's made that pom scaling is dimnishing... and that really screws over certain things

like Dionysus for example...

or Zeus

honestly I wonder why those gods don't have the exception from dimnishing pom scaling

or even, "reverse scaling"

aka, 1st level pom sucks, but higher it goes, the higher it goes

[native ether]

Reverse scaling unfortunately looks incredibly unattractive even if the second or third levels are much better.

Seeing that a pom gives you like a 5% increase on level 1 isn't going to encourage someone to go for another, especially if they don't understand how the scaling works.

The scaling also hurts poms because you aren't guaranteed to repeatedly stack poms on 1 boon.

[wheat elbow]

I feel like something like the pom needs to be balanced for each boon individually.

[pastel jolt]

actually, for a lot of them it is

[wheat elbow]

Then it needs to be double checked.

[unkempt pagoda]

i don't agree, i find pom upgrades to be rather sizeable for most boons

[wheat elbow]

You also have to differentiate if what looks sizeable is actually sizeable.

Say you get 100% damage increase for your attack.

That 100% Attack Increase for your sword is 20 to 30 extra damage.

A pom gives you how much on top of that? Let's say it's 25%. I think that is a generous esteimate for the first pom.

That'd be 5 to 7.5 damage extra per swing.

That is next to nothing.

[hollow matrix]

Ehhh?

it adds up pretty substantially once you start getting other boons though

Like If I had to choose between like an average god boon and a pom on like attack or special

or artemis mark

Thats an easy choice

[wheat elbow]

High Percentage increases don't have to mean high actual damage increases.

Especially because the game adds damage additively, not multiplicatively.

[hollow matrix]

well chaos boons add multiplicatvely

But thats besides the point

it still adds up

and gets very good depending on the rarity

Especially since its scales up after multiple poms

Like if you find urself luckily with a good boon at level 2 which isnt rare

you can actually just start skipping boons

[unkempt pagoda]

i mean, that's a perspective that believes 5 to 7.5 damage isn't worthwhile

it's not like i'm only doing one swing at a time regardless, it all adds up

[wheat elbow]

If you swing your sword often, your run must be mediocre and/or you are doing something wrong.

[unkempt pagoda]

???

how vaguely condescending

[thin jetty]

Hey, @wheat elbow! Let’s not be patronizing about how others choose to play the game. Some people find certain play styles more fun than others, and it’s important to respect that. ✨

[wheat elbow]

This isn't a discussion about playstyles or enjoying certain playstyles though, at least the way I read it. This is about something being "worthwhile".

If you play with the sword, your special will always be your best tool, with your dash and attack serving as fillers for the most part.

[pastel jolt]

in your opinion

[wheat elbow]

I would like to see the attack see more lime light.

[thin jetty]

Yeah, whether or not something is “worthwhile” is an opinion, and telling someone they’re playing wrong based on your opinion is disrespectful to how others choose to play the game.

[wheat elbow]

Sadly, that isn't happening anytime soon because the hammer upgrades for the attack are simply far away from being as good as the special ones.

When it comes to numbers, there is little room for opinions. And numbers are what we were discussing.

I enjoy making a run fun and enjoyable as much as the next guy, but when it comes to functionality, to squeezing pure power out of a run, some things work and others don't.

In this game, almost all attack related boons are inferior to their special counterparts. Exceptions exist, but they are usually weapon dependend. Zeus' comes to mind.

And these things start to matter if you go for higher difficulties, which a lot of people in here do.

[unkempt pagoda]

...so that means you choose to be condescending to other people

[wheat elbow]

I was stating a fact. At least from my point of view. If you consider that to be condescending then that is your consideration to make.