7 blood stones
#h1-builds-and-combat
trail orbit
seems like a good boon to aim for before hades
trail orbit
my favorite boon is actually drift
fair enough
drift dash, since you can just run away all the time
trail orbit
Goodnight friend
grand pollen
Blehhhhh, I am not a fan of these shield hammer changes. Between that and all the other nerf, I can't run Dash, and special just doesn't do enough single target for the final boss.
Had a 16:40 run last night with Dash, 17:55 with special, post this the two times I've gotten to the final boss have been 26+ runs and neither time has killed him.
trail orbit
I agree, but honestly I think it's worthwhile in the face of being able to block/deflect while bull rushing
like, sure, the damage is pretty bad, but at least you can't get hit :V
grand pollen
My second best run was an Aphrodite Dash build, and that now doesnt work either.
median ridge
question: does anyone else notice how zag’s run-speed gets so much slower in the last boss fight? is that intentional?
waxen skiff
Oh man... I just got to the final boss on my second run on the new patch, got to the last part with less than 1/4 of their health left and 125 health left myself and just choked the run away...
trail orbit
I kinda always have a hermes boon by that point so I dont notice any difference in movespeed
waxen skiff
It's exhausting because of how long a full run takes now as well...
turbid needle
Okay, I may have seen that.
Hades spends WAY too much time invisible, it's the same problem old bosses had with extended invincibility portions but worse because he can do it on a whim.
waxen skiff
Actually, I guess I don't know for sure I reached the end. Are there any fights past second phase Hades?
turbid needle
Not currently.
trail orbit
dont think there will be either
waxen skiff
Yeah ok... Man. It was a pretty clean run. I had 200/250 health and 3 death defies going into the Hades fight...
turbid needle
Yeah, he just deleted me before I even made it out of the first phase.
trail orbit
we're probably gonna get an epilogue when (its finished) after hades
waxen skiff
The problem was I hadn't seen the fight before so I burned a death defy before I got a feel for his patterns
And then the stupid grasping barrels killed me. That's the downside of having passion dash
It meant they triggered whenever I moved
trail orbit
probably better to shoot them ahead of time
turbid needle
I went in with either two or three but because I didn't stack up 200+ HP he took out my first DD with his newly tuned spin attack.
I'd rather see multi-hits out of him (though that may bring up the issue where Holy Shield/Broken Spearpoint are too strong).
waxen skiff
I tried but the issue was I was having to dodge skulls and my only way of shooting them was shield special and I had long flight
So I would be on a 5+ second delay waiting to be able to clear them
trail orbit
if you have shield, cant you just bull rush through them and then dash again?
thats how I did it
trail orbit
the all-seeing bot :V
errant narwhal
waxen skiff
I literally wasn't using it because I had a special and dash attack build
trail orbit
ye, bull rush and dash spam makes you really hard to hit
honestly it feels like shield makes the fight immensely easier
waxen skiff
I legit forgot it exists at that point
trail orbit
bull rush makes you invincible to the shockwave too
waxen skiff
Cute
Ok. Good to know
And I'm probably going to go shield again given that sword just got nerfed and it's my other favorite weapon
trail orbit
everything hades can do can be bull rushed
though its probably better to block the lasers
trail orbit
just get athena legendary :V
waxen skiff
Easy peesy
trail orbit
bull rush like a mad man and then run away with drift dash until the shield is back up
its how I did it
waxen skiff
Maybe I'll try that next time. I usually go with a shield special build
trail orbit
its a good one
waxen skiff
And I feel more comfortable playing that
Like, I didn't even take damage in a number of the rat chambers
trail orbit
its the build of a coward tho I:V
waxen skiff
Raises hand "I'm a coward"
But hey, I did a chad build my first run of the patch (nova build) and lost to T&M so I decided to go safe
tbf I had 50% whipped frenzy on shrug
waxen skiff
Yeah depending on build
trail orbit
like, if you get aphrodite, then what the heck are you supposed to do?
waxen skiff
Like with the build I had this run that fight is boringly easy
Oh, I also had the boon that causes opposing projectiles to move slower. Presumably that made Hades way easier
turbid needle
Spent Spirit, Duo Athena/Aphro.
waxen skiff
Yeah
errant narwhal
its so good
waxen skiff
I just lucked into that one. Main build was focused on Zeus Athena duo and just happened to get that as well
turbid needle
Ares has Hunting Blades and is the other half of Merciful End.
waxen skiff
It is, though not as good as I thought it would be
trail orbit
the duo boon bounce can hit the same target multiple times tho
turbid needle
But yeah, Lightning Phalanx can be sweet.
Exactly!
First time I got it it didn't wanna cooperate, second time it rolled everything in my way over.
waxen skiff
Yeah, though Hunting Blades feels less broken than before? Is it just me not having palyed in a while or did it get nerfed?
trail orbit
never managed to get it last patch
turbid needle
It was still strong last time I had it.
Part of what makes Hunting Blades so good in my book is its safety and consistency.
waxen skiff
I got it in my first run and I normally stop T&M when I get it but I actually died pretty hard that run
I know
turbid needle
I've lost to them with HB before when I was playing way too sloppily.
waxen skiff
It felt like it just didn't melt them as fast as before
turbid needle
Kept dashing into Asterius' combo to pick up the Bloodstones.
trail orbit
there is an edit button :V
waxen skiff
I don't know the keyboard command for it though so it's just faster to type corrections sometimes
trail orbit
fair enough
turbid needle
You can right click messages to edit.
waxen skiff
Yeah, but that requires switching to mouse
turbid needle
Read what Impetus said, I guess.
waxen skiff
I'm too lazy for the 3 seconds that takes
trail orbit
what do you use, trackpad?
waxen skiff
Nah, I'm just on my couch and I have to move to reach my mouse
trail orbit
sounds comfy
waxen skiff
It's a pretty nice set-up that gives me back pain when I try to play keyboard and mouse games
robust garden
lads im going into styx with 4 death defies and a full rail special crit build
trail orbit
how are you going to hit the rats tho
trail orbit
they are supersonic
trail orbit
I suppose the coverage is enough with that
broken cipher
Got the final boss down to 10% health. Man takes out 30% of my health bar in one attack. Oof. Should've gone with Athena's call on that one.
waxen skiff
Oh yeah, I still haven't used a call this patch. It's a new system right?
robust garden
im sad
trail orbit
you get mini wraths
waxen skiff
Also, artemis over Hermes 3?
waxen skiff
Like, unless you're trying for HB I don't know why you'd go Artemis over Hermes
trail orbit
ya know, the cast returns to you automatically
robust garden
i got the gold
waxen skiff
See!
robust garden
yea i will
waxen skiff
Nah, haven't gotten Greater Recall (I don't think ever)
robust garden
haven't foudn the sack yet
waxen skiff
phrasing!
trail orbit
anyho, I have to go, so goodnight fellas
robust garden
bye
grand pollen
The new damage on the final boss is dumb
So dumb
I went in with 4 revives, athena dash, and a full cast build so I spent the entire time dodging, his still oneshot each of my health bars in the final phase
Its way too much damage
Considering I don't have any heat on.
robust garden
I GOT THE SACK
broken cipher
Agreed.
Nicely done!!!
grand pollen
I don't understand how I can go from 16 minute runs to literally unable to kill the final boss.
broken cipher
Best of luck! Don't get hit.
turbid needle
I'm guessing it's supposed to incline us more towards picking up Centaur Hearts.
But given that the rest of the game can be done pretty easily on 100 or less HP, it's a jarring change.
"Easily" for a given definition of the word.
grand pollen
Especially when I'm killing Thesus without taking damage, or if I am most hits barely do 30
and then I die to the last boss with 70+ in one hit
broken cipher
Had a great Athena dash build using Hermes boons to have more maneuverability. And then spinny spear of doom ended that real quick.
trim ingot
i'm just gonna wait around for another balance before i kill the boss
broken cipher
I'm wondering whether it would be worth the initial hp investment to scour Chaos rooms for extra death defies.
grand pollen
^^ honestly I went from wanting to play as much as I could to try and push sub 16, to literally not wanting to play this game for a while in one minor patch
wheat elbow
@grand pollen Same case for me.
trim ingot
mood
wheat elbow
Also, I lied when I said that I'd leave.
autumn tapir
yeah the boss was already a bit overtuned, but this is just ridiculous
wheat elbow
Also, thanks for reminding me that Chaos can drop Death Defiances
autumn tapir
Not anymore
wheat elbow
Ahhhh, maaan
autumn tapir
I don't think
broken cipher
Wait. Really??? Damn.
trim ingot
f
turbid needle
And Darkness on the Heroes still feels terrible.
wheat elbow
I had a room today where I heard the noise of a chaos room appearing without a gateway.
Reported it and moved on with my life.
autumn tapir
I had that too, thought it was just a trove sound I never heard before
robust garden
ok this time thought
it didn't feel bad
because i lost
cuz his beam didn't go through the rocks
broken cipher
Oh good!
wary knot
His spear spin is a real weird one to dodge compared to other similar attacks in the game. Easy to get tagged if you just dodge like you normally would
Dying to muscle memory 
broken cipher
At least it's somewhat well telegraphed. :/ But yeah. That spin attack is. . . The invisibility is fine, you can sort of predict where the next angle of attack is. But the spin is not fun to deal with.
grand pollen
Honestly they should change the invisibilty to his % health move, remove the invuln, and have him spawn enemies at random
The way it currently is, he spends far too much time untargetable
broken cipher
Yeah, that might actually be a good solution.
native ether
I really like how the shield changes encourage more passive shield play and prevent the gungho rambo melee playstyle, which is more belonging to the sword imo.
wary knot
Maybe be able to hit him when he's invisible but he takes reduced damage? Although as cool as the idea of seeing his footprints in the snow to locate and hit him would be, It's pretty trivial to just swing like a madman and find him that way
broken cipher
Random enemy spawns though...one thing I appreciated about the Hydra is all the spawns that make boons that trigger on enemy death like attack boosts or extra damage actually useful for clearing out the other heads more quickly. They're decidedly less useful during the final boss battle.
wary knot
Not to discount your point at all, but I still prefer fighting the big bad boss to fighting the hydra 
broken cipher
XD Fair enough. Hydra's fun to kite though, with the right dash boon. The final boss is a lot less so.
autumn tapir
My problem with the boss in its current state is that it's attacks are very hard to dodge (looking at you, spin attack) and they hit for so much damage. It's almost disheartening to tear through enemies for around 30 minutes before being absolutely pounded into the ground by it
wary knot
Oh yeah here's my cursed run that I beat the boss with. I never got offered a single % damage boon for my attack or special. Or any way to inflict 2 status curses. Just 7 charges of death defiance, and a dream https://imgur.com/a/EWOH6dp
autumn tapir
and now it's even stronger, for some reason
broken cipher
Oof.
Yeah, it looks like Athena's Aid is definitely the way to go.
Also seven charges??? How even.
blazing mulch
someone posted here with even 9 haha
native ether
I really like that Styx is becoming harder. It might just be me, but I think that minus some rooms in Elysium and Theseus, the game didn't feel as challenging or as punishing the farther you got.
Granted, insane heat player here, but it is nice to see a slight increase in difficulty.
trim ingot
23 seconds of invulnerability....
wary knot
And 70% extra gauge build from getting hit 
I basically just face tanked the boss into submission
trim ingot
smug knife cat zag build
native ether
My problem with the boss in its current state is that it's attacks are very hard to dodge (looking at you, spin attack) and they hit for so much damage. It's almost disheartening to tear through enemies for around 30 minutes before being absolutely pounded into the ground by it
While I'm not gonna argue that that isn't infuriating (cause it is) I do think that's kinda one of the downsides of roguelites.
I think if you make it too easy though it starts to lose its appeal as a roguelite.
autumn tapir
it wasn't "too easy" before though
trim ingot
no matter how steep the difficulty curve is the final boss post patch is definitely a huge jump
autumn tapir
Before this patch, the boss was much more difficult than the rest of the game, but Styx is enough to allow you to prepare for the hardest fight in the game
trim ingot
it's a big difficulty wall at the end now
wary knot
Yeah, usually the final boss in roguelikes is not something you're expected to beat on the regular right? It is a big jump now though
autumn tapir
imo final bosses of roguelites should be a test of both your build and the skills you've acquired and learned through the past four areas
autumn tapir
I've played against this boss several times (and killed it several times) and it doesn't feel like I'm being tested, it just feels like it's asking if I took Hunting Blades or seven death defiances
idk maybe it's just me but pre-patch boss was fine
wary knot
I've definitely come up to the end with what I felt were insane builds and still got slapped. Not sure if that's a good thing or not though
broken cipher
That's a good point. But the boss fight was already a proper challenge. Upping the damage just made the difficulty spike ridiculously.
hard holly
Right, it feels too build-reliant
Which for a roguelike where you cant guarantee a build, isnt a very good idea
broken cipher
:/ Yeah.
autumn tapir
this feels like a dps race, but the boss brought a fighter jet
hard holly
I think the issue is less that the damage is ludicrous
And more that much of it is near impossible to avoid
See: Laser and Urn phase
autumn tapir
the spin attack is super wonky
broken cipher
That. Exactly that.
autumn tapir
there are times where I think I'm out of the radius and it still claps me for 75% of my health
hard holly
His spear spin?
sacred swallow
been forced into 2-3 meta builds is what drives me nuts
hard holly
Wait I forgot, does dash have i-frames?
blazing mulch
tbh as there is atena , many lives etc its about building much survi for last boss or insane dps
the whole idea of lives is bad
autumn tapir
the lives don't matter when he eats them for breakfast
blazing mulch
without them you dont have nothing to say
sacred swallow
range is way better vs hades
broken cipher
I enjoy the death defiances as a mechanic. And building them is great and all but who wants to be trapped aiming for a build that's arguably less entertaining to clear the rest of the rooms with?
hard holly
Anyway, I usually iframe the spin, if it has iframes
blazing mulch
meanwhile with atena last time i did him losing 60hp
hard holly
If not, Im not sure how Im not taking the hit
trim ingot
with the theseus boss fight it feels like it makes a difference if i go in with a full health bar vs nearly empty, sustaining HP is important
with hades it's just like, he can one shot your health no matter what
wary knot
Yeah as funny as "7 death defiance ding dong never die" was to win with, damn having no damage makes clearing chambers a chore
blazing mulch
we will see how supergaints solve problems during developing , atm the game is still in early progress if we talking about balance
wary knot
But obviously you can't just burst down the final boss, so you're in a weird spot
blazing mulch
its important for them to give as playable , non0buggy early access
autumn tapir
yeah it's just a...confusing choice to make the boss even harder when it was already plenty difficult for the majority of people
wary knot
I still enjoy the fight a lot! Although I'll have to try it again with this new patch and see if that holds up 
sacred swallow
makes no sense indeed. took me a decent amount of tries, with nearly perfect rng to get that hades with 60heat. and now it will become even harder
those who didn't get the last 120heat statue before the big bad .. probably won't get it now for sure
native ether
I like Hades honestly as a baseline for a final boss. I haven't gotten a real chance to test the new numbers (so more nuanced feedback incoming soon tm) but I think in general I like that the latter part of the game is becoming harder.
grand pollen
Honestly I disagree, for one reason alone.
Heat exists
I think before he was good, difficult, much harder than the previous boss, but doable, now he feels super hard, and I can't imagine ever doing heat runs now, because I imagine they just turn the last fight into a "Ok, you have 7 deaths defiances? you can get hit 7 times, and thats it"
wheat elbow
Tried to go one more time because I don't know whats good for me.
The fight glitched out again
same way it did before.
grand pollen
Even on my 60 heat runs with the 500% damage, I could take two or three hits from Thesus without dying if I was full health.
broken cipher
Quite. If people want a huge difficulty spike then heat's the way to go. This just messed with the entire balance. ^^" But I'm sure they'll find a way to even it out in the next few patches.
wheat elbow
Thing is that I don't want to be forced to play with Aphrodite only for the next 9 weeks.
(actually, that doesn't sound too bad)
broken cipher
Understandable.
grand pollen
God I hope so. I was loving the new update, and this minor patch has literally made me want to drop it again until its patched.
wary knot
wary knot
But yeah charm seems kinda mandatory
wheat elbow
The seconds it would give me against him felt strong.
But the weakening just dampening his damage really helped too
And even then, with it + Myrmidon bracer, the old man still hits like a truckload
wary knot
Does Hermes' time slow effects work on him? I assume not?
grand pollen
Yeah its super rough damage wise.
Especially phase 2, I can usually beat phase one without losing anything now, but then phase two hits, and everything is a oneshot.
Especially the pots, you touch one, and die.
grand pollen
and with Dashes breaking them, you dash out of his moves and die anyways.
wheat elbow
That needy son of a gun keeps forcing himself on me even though I don't want him
broken cipher
Odd. I only had him appear three times.
grand pollen
+% Gold.
grand pollen
?
grand pollen
LOL
wheat elbow
And horsestomps the entire party and keeps coming and coming
grand pollen
and then I reroll him every time 😛
wary knot
Do dashes break the jars if you have no dash boon? 
grand pollen
I dunno, I think so, I want to say my Artemis one did, and techincally it doesnt do damage.
broken cipher
Good question. A better one: why ever take no dash boons? XD
wheat elbow
Also, no, dashes don't break vases if you have no damage on them
wary knot
Big brain plays
broken cipher
Good point.
wheat elbow
If that option even presents itself.
You can't pick and choose what to sell, sadly.
What is everyones thought about spend energy?
wary knot
Yeah, could be worth keeping in mind though
wheat elbow
I always superlooking forward to it.
broken cipher
Right. Kept trying to get me to sell my Duo boons.
wheat elbow
Selling it for 300 feels amazing
wary knot
The jars are what usually get me tbh, hard to preemptively break them a lot of the time without getting wrecked
trim ingot
i do wish the selling was fully pickable
after all when you're trying to sell you usually have a ton of boons
broken cipher
Exactly.
wary knot
But you can only sell 1 boon each time maybe?
grand pollen
I always get hit by one when they spawn, I dunno if I'm just missing a big red flag when theyre about to or what. =/
wary knot
I think there's a visual cue but they come up bloody everywhere so it's hard to avoid them even if you see them coming
trim ingot
selling would be really useful if you started one build and pivoted to another build
broken cipher
To be fair 95% of the fight is intense visual clutter and then there's 5% that's just...empty waiting for invisibility to drop.
It would be.
grand pollen
Real talk, Darren died yesterday during the stream vs the final boss with a good build pre patch, how is Darren gonna win now? We gotta think of Darren.
broken cipher
XD
autumn tapir
#justicefordarren
trim ingot
who's the best hades player at sgg 🤔
grand pollen
^ Things I would love to know
autumn tapir
its logan, cause ||he plays the final boss and has the highest k/d ratio||
broken cipher
Ooh.
south comet
If I remember correctly there was an interview a few months ago with Greg and he said that Darren was one of the best players in the office
native ether
I mean he's Zagreus's voice, he's gotta get as much practice as he can to make the voicelines feel more realistic :p
wary knot
Gotta get that "beaten down by the underworld" mood down pat! 
ember lotus
I've got Rapid shot on bow with no other boons, and my dash attacks are doing 30 compared to the normal shots doing 50. Am I missing something here?
native ether
Non-dash attack damage was buffed in the previous patch, so dash attack is going to do less damage than basic attack.
It used to be that all bow attacks with rapid shot did 30 afaik.
autumn tapir
well I just tried Vicious Cycle for the first time
absolutely melted the heroes, didn't even have hunting blades
celest widget
Can someone give me tips on how to play against the boss in elysium
native ether
Having the right build and a large health pool is important for your first runs at it until you start figuring out the moves
Focus one of them down first. Trying to kill them both at the same time will make the fight harder as they both gain new attacks under 50% health. Note that whoever you don't kill first gets an increase in attack speed when they're alone.
celest widget
ok thanks
Btw any weapons should i take like spear or sword?
I mean i'm at 8-9 escape attempts i like minotaur but after that it gets harder for me to fight the other guy cuz of the shield
native ether
I'd recommend the shield if you're struggling but that's just cause the shield is probably the most new player/new enemy territory friendly weapon due to it's native blocking. The spear is a decent safe choice, you get some range and some fast attacks. I only recommend the sword if you're very comfortable being close to Theseus.
Who does have the high damage melee spin attack
celest widget
Ok Thanks bro
native ether
As for builds, it's helpful to remember that everything Artemist cast and Wrath straight up ignore shields. Dionysus Cast and Ares cast also will, making the Hunting Blades Ares / Artemis duo fairly effective at taking down Theseus.
Theseus is also fairly slow, meaning it's easier to line up those slower attacks
celest widget
Gotcha, That's a good tip Thank you
waxen skiff
Argh. Just died again to Hades. It's really just the stupid vases
I don't take damage from much else
But I keep getting destroyed by them
I think I'll go no dash damage next run
weary wigeon
I feel like I get robbed in the Theseus/Asterius boss fight
Sometimes Asterius' swings won't be telegraphed if you're near him. He'll come out of a jumping attack and just swing twice without the warning flash
wary knot
Yeah he changes up his patterns sometimes. 1,2, big jump. Then sometimes a delayed 1,2 to catch you getting too backstab happy on him
I think you can hit him after the jump and because the delayed swings are always at the same time (if they happen) you can just dash at that timing for safety to make sure you don't get tagged
At least, that's what I started doing after eating those swings only 8 or so times
weary wigeon
The timing element is what throws me off. His 1, 2 comes out faster than the normal starting pattern
Typically as I'm avoiding a swing from Theseus or a spear toss, Asterius will whack me for 40 damage just because I'm in his radius
and the usual indicator that he's about to pop off isn't there
broken cipher
Question about the room rerolls: is it worth collecting the thirty some keys required? Last run was a bad time and I was wondering if the rerolls actually help.
weary wigeon
Seconding that question
I had a "I hope you like Ares and Aphrodite side buffs" run that wasn't great with the ole shield
rugged apex
rerolls do help, but don't go after it immediately - they're a pretty later-game thing
you'll get more than enough keys for them eventually.
broken cipher
Thank you~ I'll just try and gather more coins to fix my build in Styx during the meantime.
rugged apex
(imo - focus on boon rarity first, since boons are weighted towards gods with synergy iirc)
broken cipher
Ooh!
wary knot
Yeah maxing out the smaller buffs seems more important for sure
rugged apex
(even without rerolls you'll usually get a decent build)
(and keepsakes let you affect that a lot on their own)
unkempt pagoda
you don't need rerolls
wary knot
Just a little harder to 'force' a build without rerolls
unkempt pagoda
they're helpful to be sure
but are low priority compared to the other mirror upgrades, and are there as a darkness sink
wary knot
Do you think they'll add some more darkness sinks eventually? There is a cap currently right?
unkempt pagoda
currently on my sixth one 😌
broken cipher
Ah, gotcha! So boost boon rarity first and that'll improve the overall build enough for even a nonoptimal run to work.
unkempt pagoda
i think fated is a pretty good darkness sink already
wary knot
(How much does it cost I actually don't know) 
unkempt pagoda
10 max and at 5 the cost increases extraordinarily
i think from 5 -> 6 is like 10000
maybe that's 6 to 7
wary knot
Thatssa lot of darkness
broken cipher
O__O
weary wigeon
Dang
unkempt pagoda
anyway, from there it doubles
wary knot
Glad there's something to dump it into even that far into the endgame!
So maybe like 80k for lv10?
trim ingot
useful for making very specific builds
unkempt pagoda
maybe (???) somebody has all rerolls legally
weary wigeon
I've been playing the game since release and I still don't feel like I've grasped how to build
unkempt pagoda
but many speedrunners just use a tweaked copy
weary wigeon
I often find myself just grabbing a random assortment of boons
Not knowing what gods compliment what weapons
unkempt pagoda
duo boons = good
weary wigeon
I go for crit a lot as a resort
broken cipher
I love the amount of boons available to equip at once now though.
Last I played that was not a thing.
unkempt pagoda
dio/zeus on faster attacks, ares/poseidon for slower ones
athena, aphro, and arty are great on everyone
weary wigeon
Yeah, those have been pretty strong so far. I got a Artemis/Zeus boon, I think, that made lightning strike whenever enemies got near my dropped casts
broken cipher
The best thing is seeing: 'nova range decreased' and then getting the hammer upgrade of 'nova range increase plus damage buff'.
wary knot
Sword slaps, wish the special hammer upgrades were more interesting though
Rather than "special is bigger and better now"
weary wigeon
I've had so little success with sword runs
Spear and Shield have been my most successful
Although I've been getting to the final boss/last biome with all my runs now
I just can't get through without losing all my death defiance along the way
weary wigeon
It does feel fun
wary knot
Shame it's kinda boring other than the whole going in and hitting loads of buttons
Getting the dash attack hammer upgrade and going super fast with dash attack cancels is really fun though
broken cipher
You can hit even less buttons if you bind serveral functions to one key. :D
I'd say it's about the same but I haven't played for a while so I could be misremembering.
wary knot
Wait you can just put dash and attack on the same key and go wild? And here I was trying to piano the buttons on my controller like a peasant
broken cipher
I bound interact and attack to the same key before the update. But seeing as all my controls were reverted to default, I have no clue.
rugged apex
nah, it's also smaller. dang.
broken cipher
Oof.
wary knot
Hmmmm, that could be pretty spicy. As long as you had another button for regular dashes!
broken cipher
Currently, everything's bound to my directional arrows. Outside of movement. Makes things very simple.
blazing mulch
It's almost like cheating haha
wary knot
I haven't gotten the chance to try dash attack upgrade + world splitter. Seems great for just cranking out damage
Although, does that work?
Or is your dash attack not a big chop?
unkempt pagoda
no it's still a thrust regardless
broken cipher
Well damn.
wary knot
It'd be pretty strong, too strong? 96 damage x2 at base with both the upgrades?
That's close-ish to a double upgraded sword special. You could do it way faster with dash attacks though
broken cipher
So binding two to one no longer works. There's a shame. Hm. Perhaps it was a glitch on my end.
weary wigeon
It's kinda weird that dash attacks are on a different damage path than regular attacks
Artemis even has a separate buff for them
hollow minnow
I'm about to face Theseus and the Minotaur any tips?!!? I STILL find them super hard!!! How do I dodge that awful purple target when he throws his spear?!!?!? (I have the sword)
autumn tapir
Dash forwards when it becomes pink
weary wigeon
Focus on the Asterius (the Minotaur). Lowering Theseus below a certain threshold makes the fight harder if they're both still up.
And yeah, the icon for the spear will change color when he's going to throw it. There's a sfx indicating Theseus is going to toss it too
Standing next to or behind a pillar doesn't always prevent you from getting hit by the spear so try to get the hang of dodging the attack
broken cipher
Something useful for that specific encounter is the Drift dash. Zag just sort of...blurs out of the way last minute, even if you're caught out of position. Theseus' throw isn't fast enough to switch directions if you use the speed boost from that after a quick dash in a different direction.
wary knot
Oh yeah, Chaos boon/curse question: is there a limit to how many active curses you can have at once?
I think I've had like 3 or so going at once and dropping into another chaos portal made one of the active ones vanish
median ridge
i wonder if they fixed that brief period of being frozen after doing a dash attack with the sword dash attack upgrade
fast shardBOT
Thanks for reporting a game freeze! The most common solution to this issue can be found in #hades-tech-fixes-old
hollow minnow
Thanks so much guys!!!!!!!! I'm going in!!!!! so nervous! 
⚔
median ridge
proxy.....no
errant narwhal
@wary knot that sounds like a potential bug
id say if you can ever get it to happen again, report it with 
which rhymes
wary knot
Poetic 
It was a pretty unlikely amount of curses to have at once, I thought I had just miscounted them when it happened!
is your friend
hollow minnow
Ahhhh I beat them!!! That was so fast!! I am shocked!!!
hollow minnow
But, something crazy happened?!!? The Bull took one of my DD's in ONLY TWO HITS??!!!!!! Isn't that a little too much?!?! Only two hits!?! Has that happened to anyone else, or...?!!?!?!?!?! 😭 😭 😱 😱 😱
Ummm, I have the Sword and a bunch of Athena boons!
errant narwhal
lol, checks out! shes pretty strong
autumn tapir
the bull has pretty high damage, but you can usually dodge him by luring him into walls or dashing behind him
weary wigeon
Asterius also has some weird hitboxes, so you can be hit during his jump attack on the way up and down
Which can add to a significant chunk of damage in a short amount of time
broken cipher
400 hp is not apparently enough hp.
hollow minnow
What's a hitbox?? 😛
I'm going in to face the Final Big Bad 😮 for the third time! but I don't think I'll survive! I lost TWO death defiances from the poison!!! Sometimes it deals not a lot of damage and other times, like just now, it deals a toooon!!! What the heck!? Has that happened to anyone else???? I lost two just because of the poison alone!!!
AHHHHH!!!!!! I ALMOST BEAT HIM I GOT SOOOO, SOOO CLOSE!!!! He was down to 5 percent health!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I just didn't get out of the way fast enough!!!! I was thiiiis close!!!!
broken cipher
Ooooh! That's awesome! Good luck on the next run~
native ether
Okay so everyone fun fact
I got to styx in a run with 500% damage heat
So uhm, I lasted 5 rooms
Snakestones do 18 damage a hit
Crawlers do 18 damage a hit
rugged apex
snakestones are way stronger now.
native ether
Thank god I made an external save of my run so I can repeatedly try this run cause its a Hunting Blades with Vicious Cycle 120 Heat run
but ow
im gonna have to actually not lose a single death defiance in elysium
which is going to be moderately difficult
rugged apex
like - their beam converges into one big beam really fast, and if you get hit by that you're.... probably dead
native ether
thank god they can be interrupted
I dont think doing the elite rooms in styx is worth it at all with any heat unless you're forced to
snakestones alone make styx hell with 500% damage they eat your healthbar
Hades himself I could likely do with 500% damage 120 heat. Just avoid him and let my vicious cycle do the work
oh and yes
your worst fears come true
Poison is affected by Vicious Torment
native ether
Styx is one word with 500% damage
Hell
I'd like to also follow that with a lot of choice words but im reserving that for my internal rage and temper tantrum
dear god
rugged apex
it's pretty hard even without it, now that you can't kill spawning enemies - snakestones are also a lot less incidental damage and more 'half your health is gone at best'
native ether
fortunately vicious cycle kills things very quickly but i have to dodge the lasers now
I need that athena wrath offered in my save's first chamber simply to survive that biome
ok so i havent gotten to hades yet
but if the snakestone buff is any indication, I don't think Hades needed the buff he got today lol
rugged apex
hades has been using me like a football and the buff definitely didn't help.
native ether
Yeah im inclined to agree with earlier comments that Hades did not need that buff lol. The nerfs are fine cause they make the fight more approachable but I don't think Hades needed more damage XD
Then again, strategy for Hades at 500% damage is basically gonna be the same as 100% damage. You get as many hits as you have Death Defiances. "Don't get hit"
But I am definitely going to be save scumming this 120 heat run because I actually don't think its feasible for someone to do a 120 heat run without save scumming it lol.
And I don't like saying that cause it feels super cheaty, but I can't imagine having to deal with Elysium only to just have a chance to barely survive the new Styx.
repeatedly...
cause even if you're not running damage, that means you'll be running Frenzy or Pain Tolerance (or Veil), which are just as worse options.
I think right now though honestly, whether or not you can beat a 120 heat run is entirely dependent on "how many snakestones do I run into"
rugged apex
I agree, tbh. even on low heat snakestones are a cut above the rest of the styx enemies.
native ether
snakestones are to hades as arbiters are to dead cells lol
rugged apex
I just want the dream build - bow, curse of agony, divine flourish, passion dash or shatter shot, relentless barrage, merciful end, curse of longing.
technically something you can get in tartarus, if you get very lucky.
rugged apex
... I do not like this run seed, because charion's shop in styx has no boons and the only boons in styx tunnels are zeus and poseidon in a run where I only picked ares, athena, and aphrodite boons.
for the love of hades, give me boons I care abot.
toxic acorn
wheat elbow
I have returned.
I have slept.
I feel refreshed. I feel rejuvenated.
I still feel foul and sour about yesterday.
median ridge
after getting vengeful mood, i would love to see an all-revenge build
wheat elbow
Someone in here is all over that.
rugged apex
...my dream build doesn't seem to work? oh dear. I'm gonna have a bad time.
oh it does work the base duration of weak just sucks
limpid ember
People here talking about 120 heat runs and I can't even beat the final boss on 0 heat
wanton niche
Same. It'll happen someday, maybe.
limpid ember
Yeah, I know I struggled with Theseus when he first launched too, so I might grow into it
median ridge
shield is ridiculously good for him
wanton niche
Then again, I barely ever used the difficulty boosts in the other Supergiant games, so I dunno if I'm gonna pull off the 120 heat runs.
limpid ember
But I've reached last boss with some pretty broken builds and 3-4 defiances and still lost handily
real shoal
thesus don't hit for 160+ dmg tho
limpid ember
Like 1000 crit dmg builds
real shoal
yeah same
wanton niche
Redacted is scary tough and got tougher with the most recent patch
real shoal
i don"t understand the process behind the damage up tbh
limpid ember
Most is additive, some are multiplicitive
real shoal
p2 is a nightmare if your build got aoe
limpid ember
Crit, chaos are multiplicitive for instance
median ridge
last run i went into the last fight with 500 max hp
real shoal
getting stun for 50+ dmg is hell
limpid ember
I think on chaos anyway
median ridge
only needed half of that because i had a shield and athena legendary
limpid ember
But stuff like backstab, atk boon bonus, and having a cast shard in them is additive
It's part of what makes athena so strong. Crit being one of the only ways to get multiplicitive damage increas
turbid needle
Artemis?
rugged apex
whee, I love finding the satyr sack in the last path.
limpid ember
I did all of the rooms regardless of when I found the sack before the buff to styx
Cause Redacted needs any advantage you can get lol
wanton niche
I like how we've all just agreed to call the final boss Redacted
astral locust
I officially want to die after losing the fight with hades 3 times in a row
rugged apex
mleh! merciful end and curse of longing don't appear to be friends at all.
median ridge
it's what we would want
rugged apex
which is awful given how much work you have to put in to get a build with both.
upbeat junco
is there any quick and easy way to reset a seed?
turbid needle
Just gotta burn through your DDs.
upbeat junco
:/
turbid needle
I don't like it either.
upbeat junco
I think they it should randomly generate a seed each time you start the run, because it seems that, im guessing, it chooses the seed when you get to the house of hades and saves the seed
wheat elbow
YES!
I have seen him once over the course of the run
and that was too much already
rugged apex
I just want to make wild boon combinations and have them work the expected, fun way.
wheat elbow
It took only 5 death defiances and Athena Wrath to get the job done.
He got his spinning attack off on me from behind once while I had a blood stone on me.
kissed 160 of my HP goodbye in one fell swoop
turbid needle
Streamed a run where I tapped Redacted with Aphro's new Greater Call to the cool tune of 14k damage. And then the game crashed.
wheat elbow
You know, I have a hard time gauging the worth of that Wrath effect now.
I haven't tried it since the update.
2500 is the base damage on epic rarity, right?
Is it one projectile that deals that damage, or how does it work?
turbid needle
Same as her regular Call, but burning a full meter makes the projectile deal 2500 damage.
Redacted got caught with a PS crit, plus some other goodies to bump the damage up that high.
Took him from just under 2/3rds to phase 2.
wheat elbow
That opens up the question of whether that is worth it compared to other wrath effects.
I believe Poseidon now has 280 base damage at epic rarity
and a full charge lasts 7.2 seconds
turbid needle
I take a given keepsake on Asphodel and Elysium for whatever I'm trying to build towards.
wheat elbow
so the damage would be comparable
DPS, less so, probably
Ah
I meant wrath effects, not keepsakes
mea culpa
turbid needle
Maybe not too much on its own, but I was able to engineer Hunter Mark and hit him with it then.
wheat elbow
I mean, we have to appreciate it as one of the if not the strongest single target base damage hits in the game.
proud storm
hades using the helm of darkness https://giphy.com/gifs/pz7X6ivsb8KaEO9D4F
wheat elbow
Watching a video of an old kill on Hades
His whirling swing used to deal 30 damage
one laser tick 16
Pretty sure I saw the laser hit me for over 30 today
distant fog
just shield lol
wheat elbow
Shield got nerfed yesterday too.
distant fog
really how so
wheat elbow
Check #hades-patch-notes
Basically, they took away all it's knock backs from everything.
distant fog
no wonder i felt like i dealt alittle less dmg
wheat elbow
When it comes to Tartarus, that is actually much less damage.
It also feels super weird bullrushing through enemies instead of pushing them with you.
Also, DashinG Wallop was nerfed.
distant fog
for what its worth i still feel like i can just bullrush every encounter regardless
wheat elbow
It's probably still relatively safe, yes
But it is a change for the worse imo.
The fights with the shield don't really become harder through that, just longer
And the knockbacks on the shield were always a part of it, at last for me. Now the weapon has lost a big part of it's Identity imo.
obtuse tapir
It's been my fourth battle against Redacted and I still can't get what he's doing
obtuse tapir
I feel like there are too many actions happening at the same time and I can't really catch what's really going on
wheat elbow
Yeah man, that phase is super weird.
obtuse tapir
i can't really tell the trajectory of a skull
wheat elbow
Gotta be honest, on the earlier runs I played, I just DPS raced him.
obtuse tapir
like, when does it keep following me to hell and when does it just give up and stay there?
wheat elbow
Since he got buffed, when I did get to the second phase, the game would bug out so I can't talk from experience all that much
wheat elbow
Yeah, and you dash, you get cought
obtuse tapir
and even after i kill one the corpse still gets me
how do i even make a safe place
Oh and I also feel that his attack damages are WAY HIGHER than any previous enemies
Meg bump deals like 13?
and Redacted spear spin deals 60
do i get 5 times stronger during biome 2 to 4?
I don't think so
errant narwhal
@wheat elbow if you saw a mistake in a shield hammer upgrade wording, im pretty sure that would fall under and not feedback
if you could find it again and report it would be much appreciated
also @trim ingot i have max hearts with cerberus and im able to pet him, so i think your feedback is also a bug. F10 it as well?
obtuse tapir
I was trying 60+ heat before (did 120 hydra run before Elysium was introduced) but I can't really beat 0 heat after the update 😦
placid plinth
Are Blade Rift actions susceptible to any damage buffs, like Privileged status or crits?
wheat elbow
Yes,
@obtuse tapir If you get hit by the bloodstone before, that damage doubles, too.
obtuse tapir
yeah I didn't really get what boiling blood meant but soon realized when another stone hit me
What's the best strategy for DPS racing Redacted?
When Elysium was introduced Spear special & return DPS was my favorite strat but it seems to have been nerfed
So far my best DPS was rail special with double chaos and artemis which dealt like 2000 damage with 3 shots combined
finite grail
I’ve found spear has consistent damage and keeps you at good range but shield is helpful in defense
block some casts
placid plinth
Welp, final boss is insanely difficult again. I'd like to think that I could win if I could get that Ares legendary, but in the end, damage was okay, problem was receiving damage
Spear sweep deals 80 damage default now
So, probably 160 damage under Boiling Blood
Also, btw, what do you people think about Bow now dealing more damage when static compared to dash attack?
At least Rapid Shot is more useful, I guess. Before patch I didn't take it usually because it messed up my dash-charge-perfect shot rhythm
autumn tapir
which god is that?
obtuse tapir
I had no available upgrade options
autumn tapir
oh pom
obtuse tapir
I purged away everything in the main slot because I didn't like them (I don't like Dio Ares and Aphro in general)
grand patrol
bites into a pom and its filled with money
finite grail
oof ouch
finite grail
daaaaaang you can buy so many wall scrolls
obtuse tapir
six dds with 900+ obols now
wheat elbow
Okay, sooo
I can still beat Hades, as I learned.
All it takes is cheesing the game to the best of my ability.
Weakening and Myrmidon Bracer so that his hits don't take out 25 to 75% of my health bar in one fell swoop no more.
Deflecting + Dashing Wallop to negate a lot of damage in the first place
And zeus's Wrath Effect for on-demand OP damage potencial.
Additional Seasoning Provided by a big crit engine slammed on top of it.
placid plinth
Woah, I just beat new Hades for the first time. With build that I totally expected to lose
On 15 HP on last life
wheat elbow
@autumn tapir Sounds like you got hit by a swirling blow while affected by a bloodstone
placid plinth
Turns out Spent Spirit (Aphro/Athena) is really great thing, especially when you have something to deflect with. Battle was long, but, until he started sending 3-4 skulls at me at a time, I wasn't hit by Boiling Blood at all
ember lotus
I was rocking full Blade Rifts last night with Hunting Blades, Blade Dash, and Vicious Cycle and had to marvel at how long it took to kill [redacted]. Those invincibility phases, and invisibility phases made things take forever.
I also sorely missed Hunter's Mark status, which I could only get by critting one of those masks he tosses out, and hoping he didn't vanish soon after so my rifts could do work.
It was kind of shock after Hunter's Mark + Vicious Cycle basically erased T&A
placid plinth
Screws a lot of strategies that were completely valid until that moment, right?
Random invulnerability is BS
ember lotus
Yeah. I have yet to get him with a bow
wheat elbow
I mean, not really.
The invulnerability bit, yes
But Marked being multitarget only is not bad.
ember lotus
Marked has been carrying me
wheat elbow
There is only one boss fight that is a dedicated 1v1
and that is Alecto.
Tisiphone
Alecto spawns a lout every now and then, she is a close second
ember lotus
Those spawn minions that give you marked
wheat elbow
Everywhere else, Marked carries hard
Tisiphone doesn't.
She is the only pure single target fight in the game
placid plinth
And Tisiphone is easy enough, I think. Though, don't know about how hard is she on high heat
wheat elbow
Frenzy can really up the difficulty on her
ember lotus
On a spear build with exploding launcher or Quick/Massive spin, the Marked status will end that fight in four or five lucky hits
placid plinth
If final boss didn't reset his buffs randomly, Marked would work pretty nicely
wheat elbow
But I think that on higher heat, Meg and Alecto are actually harder than Tisiphone.
Meg because she spawns ALL the adds, which becomes ridiculous with some pact options
And Alecto because she becomes unbearably fast under frenzy when she enrages fully
placid plinth
I disliked new Marked at first but turns out it's actually really amazing
ember lotus
It's sheer foolishness
placid plinth
As somebody said, "I want everything in that direction dead"
ember lotus
[Redacted] also nerfs one of my other favorite setups, Dionysus attack, Ares Special, Aphrodite Dash
Pushing for Merciful End gives me my most consistent runs so far
Or exploding launcher
placid plinth
Dio is already bad in late-game outside of Privileged Status. While other gods can easily be used as primary source of DPS, Dio is just support
hard holly
Eh, on rapid fire attack weapons Dio is still good
ember lotus
With some poms I think he out damages Ares
hard holly
Gets outclassed by Zeus, but you don't always get zeus
Something I know from painful experience
placid plinth
He is seriously stifled by poison stack cap
hard holly
Eh, Dio outdamages Ares pretty much immideatly
ember lotus
But we mentioned yesterday that a lot of boons outdamage ares
native ether
Depends on the weapon tbh
placid plinth
I think Ares on something low-damage but multitarget attack is a lot better than any other god. I mean, like Shield Special that is just 15 damage
ember lotus
Ares on bow special or shield special is wonderful
native ether
Dio is still pretty good if you go for the Low Tolerance build and get some poms. He does really drop off in Styx though.
ember lotus
Especially on challenge rooms
hard holly
Yeah but you don't really want to use shield special given that shield charge exists
Which does way more damage while being faster and safer
placid plinth
Multi Skewer spear probably also could work, but it deals enough damage that percent scaling works well already
ember lotus
I've never really gotten the hang of the shield charge
hard holly
It's easier with the deja vu upgrade
placid plinth
Without Sudden Rush it feels to slow to use
hard holly
Which is what I dubbed sudden rush
wheat elbow
I don't understand
hard holly
But even baseline is pretty fast
native ether
Doom also always works with Merciful End. It's insane
wheat elbow
How does Zeus outdamage Dionysus
ember lotus
Pulverizing strike and Dashing Wallop are so much easier to use
ember lotus
It's the cast one with the thinder
native ether
Makes Festive Fog clouds strike lightning
ember lotus
I don't love it, it turns off boiling blood
wheat elbow
Dionysus Tipsy Shot also makes lightning Strike for 80 damage over the cloud constantly
hard holly
Ah
wheat elbow
@ember lotus Dio Legendary gives you a better boiling blood
placid plinth
Also when enemies are moving, it's kinda not so good
hard holly
Seems good, but requires you to pick up Dio cast which isn't very good until you get that upgrade
Anyway, Dio kinda needs the cap
Else he would break the game
placid plinth
Maybe something like what they did with wall rush damage - i.e. scales with biome?
native ether
Dio's cast is incredibly underrated. It's like getting a free rail special that stuns enemies in it for a long time.
ember lotus
I don't know, most of the fights are broken now anyway
hard holly
Bit hard to parse for a player I imagine
placid plinth
Like, Tartarus five stacks, Styx - eight stacks
hard holly
Maybe make each application at max stacks consume the earliest stack instantly for 50% damage?
placid plinth
Ooh, this is also nice
ember lotus
And you can keep eight stacks on something for nothing without the forced rest phase stripping all you poison stacks
placid plinth
Also I had thoughts about being able to apply more than five stacks, but stacks over five expire more quickly
hard holly
It's not as much damage as infinite cap, but it also has a bit of a juicier impact once it's stacked
Which feels good
native ether
My only issue with the Dio/Zeus setup is it doesn't keep bosses trapped in it, so I find it inferior to something like a Hunting Blades setup which will follow enemies (bonus points for Ares legendary) For room clear though it's really good.
hard holly
I'd also like an upgrade that expunges all current stack for extra damage
placid plinth
Like, first five stacks - 4 seconds, sixth - 2 seconds, seventh - 1 second etc
ember lotus
@hard holly That's so close to Ares though
hard holly
Though at that point you're basically playing twitch
Could be a duo boon?
Doom also consumes all poison stacks for damage
placid plinth
Oh, that would work
ember lotus
It'd also work a lot like Merciful End
placid plinth
I think
hard holly
Unless they have a duo boon as well
ember lotus
Oh that could be fun
placid plinth
They don't have duo yet
ember lotus
Thematically, Dio and Ares totally should though
placid plinth
And Aphrodite being, well, Aphrodite, already has 5 duo boons btw 😄
ember lotus
Those two fit together like Poseidon and Zeus
placid plinth
Madness and War
hard holly
Well then I suggest that as the duo boon
ember lotus
Yes
hard holly
All I want in exchange is to be a beta tester
placid plinth
I still think that gods that work only in that single specific combo isn't really good idea, it forces you in a playstyle. So, Dio still needs to be buffed somehow, I think
hard holly
Well you could have both the buff and that duo boon
placid plinth
I also thought that I'm done with Hades for today - or even until next update, I've been playing this whole week while on work leave - but now I want to come back and play some more
wheat elbow
Guys, if you want to see what a strong Dionysus run can do for you, check out #self-promotion
I'll make it worth your while.
native ether
Ares / Dionysus boon "Blood Drunk"
I suppose that's too on the nose though :p
hard holly
How about "wine into blood"?
native ether
Feels rather biblical but hey, thematic is as thematic does
wheat elbow
Drunken With Power
native ether
I love the newer more unique effect Duo boons though. Definitely want to see more of those
hard holly
Well, it is a bit biblical but it fits my idea perfectly
Hm, idk about that
Spent spirit for example doesn't really feel like a duo boon, yknow?
Feels more like a Hermes boon
native ether
I actually really like it.
hard holly
I mean it's a cool boon, but the flavour is, idk, off?
native ether
It doesn't feel offensive powered, but I think that was almost by design.
Aphrodite weakens enemies, and Athena deflects things, so putting them together weakens enemy projectiles
hard holly
Hm, I guess, but it still feels fundamentally more Hermes
placid plinth
Ye, duo boons that aren't actually part of any duo feel weird
Poseidon/Dio make all poms +1, and Poseidon/Zeus make all boons Epic?
hard holly
I do like the idea of boons that aren't if God a effect then God b effect
placid plinth
I mean, great things, but what it has to do with these gods?
hard holly
But they still need to be tied to God a and God b, which is hard to do
native ether
I mean thematically Sweet Nectar and Exclusive Access actually make sense.
placid plinth
Maybe simplest boons for Dio would be something like "Your knockback attacks apply one stack of poison to the enemy"?
Though, it might be too simple
native ether
Poseidon has Ocean's Bounty and Sunken Treasure. His kit honestly makes sense to have 2 duo boons which are run utility resource based.
hard holly
Its too close to the formula were trying to break up, I guess
Let me give an example of an alternative boon that could work
hard holly
Poseidon/Ares boon that makes the walls have blade rift effects close to them
wheat elbow
His duo boons either don't work or aren't guaranteed to be good.
green birch
In this house we stan Sweet Nectar and no one will convince me otherwise
placid plinth
I'm still thinking in terms attack A helping god B. Something like, "knocking enemies into barriers makes extra tick for poison" or "prolongs poison"
native ether
Sea Storm is pretty good. The other 2 are great because they can help bolster runs.
Specifically building for Exclusive Access early on in a run just breaks everything.
Same with Sweet Nectar, esp since 3 poms seem guaranteed to show up in Styx.
hard holly
Which God has the most healing-related flavour?
ember lotus
That is two boon investments though
native ether
Aphrodite and Dionysus by far.
hard holly
I had an idea of a duo that lets you use a finished on low health enemies that locks you in an animation and gives you health, which would be an Ares boon
wheat elbow
It is also a question of playstyle.
Sometimes, my runs go by without me having eaten a single pom.
I simply don't value them as much as others.
hard holly
It's stupid but you could call it "Rip and Tear" which would be the most Ares name yet
placid plinth
Huh, for some reason I thought Exclusive Access was Zeus/Poseidon just now. Zeus/Poseidon is Sea Storm
native ether
It's two boon investments but you're investing in Poseidon, Dionysus, and Aphrodite. All of which are good choices tbh.
turbid needle
I think poms were a lot more useful before duo boons existed
And before poms started scaling less
placid plinth
After poms were nerfed to have diminishing returns, they are actually not that important. IMO that made the game a lot richer
hard holly
I'd also like Dio boons that combine two debuffs into a new debuff
ember lotus
Poseidon is also the god on Earthquakes. Thematically, something like 'Unstable Footing' that slows enemies and puts a DoT on them seems appropriate for a Poseidon x Dionysus duo boon
native ether
I'll agree with that but that's because they didn't have exponentially reductive scaling before the Beefy Update.
broken cipher
Lambent Plume feels completely pointless in Styx and that's saddening.
native ether
However there are some runs I will always dump into Poms at insane levels. (Poison runs, Blade Rift runs, Pressure Point runs)
placid plinth
Previously you took three-four boons and avoided anything else to not dilute your pom option pool. Now it's a lot better to take every boon you can, and that turns the game into a beautiful chaos
ember lotus
I do still like to angle for certain duo boons
placid plinth
I just thought, wouldn't it be really cool to have Hermes duo boons?
native ether
Yeah but unfortunately it made Poms very weak tbh.
However, you're always guaranteed to find 3 poms in Styx. So Sweet Nectar is guaranteed to get some value out of it if you want to go for it.
Same with Exclusive Access. You're guaranteed to find I think 5 total boons in Styx? (1 Hermes, 2 Shop, and 2 in chambers)
So you're guaranteed to have value.
ember lotus
Like, if you're a blade rift build, never take a curse
turbid needle
I personally dont like playing with Lambent Plume or the Pierced Butterfly. I think it's more fun (and more rewarding) to try and get some god boons mid-attempt with keepsakes that complement your core build.
native ether
^ this is my strat but it's been real bad feeling to do all of Asphodel and get literally 1 boon and it was just the one on my keepsake.
placid plinth
I just use Broken Spearpoint to have less opportunities to die 😄
ember lotus
I like taking boon specific keepsakes after the first biome when I have something to build towards
But sometimes the seeds are all over the place with no god boons showing up until the first boss room
And I wish I could force something so I'm going into the Fate battle with something
green birch
Jsyk, the expensive poms in Styx boost by 2 levels
ember lotus
And I need to get better at recognizing the god boon rotations on fated authority
native ether
I think the other issue I have with how short the game is now is that it seems the only thing I lost was getting run affecting rewards. I still get just as many blue laurel rewards as I used to, which doesn't feel good cause I feel like I lost a lot of run buffs, but didn't lose a proportional amount of consumables.
Granted their roadmap says they're on their way to fix stuff like this with Resources 2.0
turbid needle
I think the game would be better with some more weights in the RNG. Like a guarantee of at least 3 god boon opportunities showing up in Tartarus
native ether
I do like how almost every room in Elysium is gold laurel.
It desparately helps me shore up my build.
native ether
It means I can take all the health I couldn't grab earlier cause I was going for god boons
Always buy the trove spawn items
If you're going for winning a run, always do it.
turbid needle
Feels bad when they just offer me darkness tho :/
ember lotus
It does kind of feel like free money
turbid needle
Like I wasted 30 gold for superfluous darkness, and usually a key or two as well
native ether
It's a net free money or health with a low chance of losing it and getting darkness.
wary knot
Why does the Lambent Plume feel useless in Styx Spike? You can still level it once for each path you take. I suppose that's less than the other biomes, or do you mean something else?
turbid needle
I havent been able to complete a Styx chamber in under 30 seconds
wary knot
Is it still 30 seconds even at the last chamber in the tunnels? I dunno how exactly the plume works now
native ether
I find it more useless in general because the buff you get is honestly a net lower than what you could get with it before.
The percentage got slashed in half
Even though you can get it in almost every room if you're fast enough.
wary knot
Oh yeah for sure. And the bonus of getting the buff on a couple of extra rooms doesn't make up for it
But the game is longer now so it keeps on scaling up
native ether
The game is actually the same length as it was before, if you count by rooms that offer rewards and plume buffs.
Plume only scales in the final room of Styx wings, and we lost 5 chambers in Asphodel (and got 5 wings in Styx)
wary knot
Oh huh, that's a good point. Didn't think of that
native ether
The plume feels a lot better to use now that you get it consistently throughout the run, but it's effects are honestly much weaker than they used to be
wary knot
Was it at a good power level before then do you think?
On my (admittedly lower heat) runs, it just felt like the obvious best choice before
wheat elbow
The Plume is not worth it
On the run I just published, I used the Plume and got every stack minus one.
The Hydra fight wasn't possible
neither is Hades
and all that only gave me 31.2%
native ether
I think the maximum amount of current speed you can get is around 32.4%.
For comparison, with old plume and the right build, I could score about 35% walking out of Tartarus alone.
wheat elbow
30% usually for me on good runs, but yeah, sounds about right
native ether
The plume scales much more consistently but it's effect is worse throughout the game and about the same at the end of the game, which makes it overall weaker, even though it feels much better to use.
wheat elbow
It is not only that the effect itself is weaker.
native ether
It's more fun to use definitely, but it's effects now are definitely weaker.
wheat elbow
It's also that you leave 4 other keepsakes on the table.
native ether
which is also an issue I have with the butterfly and why I don't touch it
But the butterfly offers damage, which means it can always be useful.
wheat elbow
My usual go-to is coinpurse-godkeepsake godkeepsake Myrmidon Bracer
The latter now more than ever
thanks to ridiculous overbuffings
For cast heavy runs, on Elysium, I used toi like the bone hourglass as a final keepsake
wary knot
Yeah I actually kinda like the plume being worse as changing your keepsakes throughout a run is a really fun little thing to be doing
wheat elbow
Not an option for Styx because it'd be wasted
wary knot
And the plume you just gotta rock the whole way through
native ether
Yeah Bone Hourglass kind of drops off because it counts all those little rooms as encounters
@wooden spade you can also tie with him and get it :p
wheat elbow
And because there are next to no Wells
You see one between biomes and sometimes maybe one well in the small rooms and that is it
wooden spade
Well okay then haha but still - took me a long time to realize those were connected, hence the feedback
broken cipher
Sorry, I was on a run there but yes. Essentially what everyone else mentioned concerning the plume.
kind fiber
finite grail
I thought I remembered being able to powershot it but it might’ve been a boon
faint carbon
yeah thats a hammer upgrade
hard holly
Yep
broken cipher
After this last run the thing I appreciate the most is Hermes' dash boon. Why yes, I would like that health back when I had to reach floating gorgon heads of doom out on the lave because they refused to budge.
hard holly
And yes, powershot is a hammer upgrade
Minotaur rush specifically
Which went from the worst upgrade in the game to my personal favourite
ember lotus
I need to look up one on these shield runs with the charge attacks. I'm starting to suspect I'm missing out because of my own impatience.
wheat elbow
@covert grove So there is something I have been meaning to ask you for a while now.
Why do you go so hard on getting poms in your runs? I fail to see the appeal in getting an increasingly shrinking power increase to a random boon be better than receiving actual power or utility from a god.
hard holly
Consistency I suppose
wheat elbow
That is how my last run looked
Took a page out of your book and went with a sword crit run with Aphro/Artemis boon
Not as fast as you, but that is of course not what I'm going with usually.
The 4 poms that I did got were either because I had no choice, did not want to waste a reroll or, in one case, I had 100 coins to spare on the last shop.
My special was critting for over 800 damage, double super nova of course and I had a nice set of defensive utility in there.
wary knot
Nice! That's kinda what I aim for with sword every time. Double special upgrade with artemis/Aphro boon for the special. You've got a lot more boons than I usually get though! Shoutouts to Fated Authority
wheat elbow
Yeah, I have 8 of them
I also go hard on money chests
Almost every chest I see get's opened.
And yeah, I believe that Sword Aphro/Artemis is one of the most stable builds to win the game with.
wary knot
Yeah they're basically always worth it
wheat elbow
For one because it's good damage
but also because it applies and utilizes weak.
And that all by itself wins the game against Hades because it negates that stupid overbuff from yesterday.
wary knot
Yeah inflicting charm with AoE is just better than any defensive boon you could get. Except maybe Athena's Call
wary knot
Oh yeah I know, same idea applies though
wheat elbow
That was all it took, really. AOE weak/charm is more of an interesting thing for heated runs I believe.
Non heated runs, you can basically bumrush through most rooms.
Especially the way I play, very minmaxi, I get very powerful very fast
Which I need to do in order to overshadow how mediocre I am as a player.
That is it, that is my secret, guys.
wary knot
wheat elbow
Mediocre skill, but the gods love me.
faint carbon
depends on what pact you go for, but weak feels kinda pointless because if you get hit on 500% vicious torment you're gonna lose a DD anyway
I don't really like the charm call either
wheat elbow
Not so.
I mean, what is the hardest hitting enemy on Tartarus, bosses aside?
A wretched Thug
faint carbon
you shouldn't be getting hit in tartarus
wheat elbow
Hits for 10 usually, 60 under full torment
faint carbon
all of the mobs are immensely predictable in there
wheat elbow
With weak, that becomes 30.
Suddenly, you don't lose a DD.
I mean, the same remains true throughout the game.
Leaving bosses aside, there is no basic enemy pre-styx who can deal 20 or more damage in one single hit
120 under torment, 60 with weak
That is a huge difference.
faint carbon
the difficult part is the bosses though mostly
wheat elbow
Of course.
faint carbon
like you said, regular mobs are predictable and weak won't help you on the bosses
wheat elbow
The most hard hitting ability in the game right now is Hades' roundabout swing.