Now that I think of it, wouldn't he have already paid the coin to Charon for entry into the afterlife?
#h1-builds-and-combat
junior cypress
placid silo
my first clear and victory in game
Woo
lost rose
👏
junior cypress
PARTY BLOWER SOUND EFFECT
placid silo
I don't know why I'm so tied to the bow
I can't use any other weapon beside this one XP
junior cypress
Did you know that by stacking buffs and upgrades to its special, that you can use it as a glorified shotgun?
pastel jolt
bow is good
placid silo
the 100% more shots special with hammer is great
And yeah, I realized
junior cypress
Puts the actual gun to shame with the DPS you can pull off
placid silo
||also apparently Chaos has a boon, that lets you collect 200% more darkness, so that's fun||
junior cypress
They can affect pretty much any stat I think
placid silo
yeah, and I saw them affect darkness
But 200%?
junior cypress
What was the initial drawback?
junior cypress
That's a steal
placid silo
this is gonna be fun
placid silo
you mean Than's?
junior cypress
Yep
junior cypress
You can now begin the process of ceaselessly headbutting into a concrete wall until it eventually collapses
placid silo
sweet
and also trying to collect more stuff including ambrosia for Hermes
If he appears
junior cypress
I'm hoping it's Hera
placid silo
My bets were on Hephaestus
junior cypress
I just want to hear her complain about Zeus's questionable sleeping habits, in character
junior cypress
Exactly
placid silo
imagine the trial being between Zeus and Hera
junior cypress
Would Athena be the judge or part of the jury?
placid silo
I mean the trial of the gods thing
junior cypress
Wait, no, Hypnos is clearly a better judge to have
"You see Hera, maybe you should have just kept a closer eye on your beloved to avoid him cheating on you"
There needs to be a calendar with advice from Hypnos on every day
junior cypress
Would certainly get me motivated to wake up in the morning
Hades not nearly be as effective a life coach as Hypnos
No wonder Zag is always so soft spoken, imagine waking up to pessimism incarnate every single morning/ night
wheat elbow
Athena would be a terrible judge to have
Let me point you towards the story of medusa for reference.
frank dew
well it was justice in the context of the time 😛
wheat elbow
Medusa having Poseidon force herself on her and Athena punishing her for that.
That is some grade A justice right there
frank dew
yeh but that was standard justice back then
wheat elbow
It was standard justice to punish the victim?
frank dew
yes
frank dew
history is fairly frequent with punishing victims
especially when said victim is a woman
robust garden
i just got
aphrodite legendary
but i don't have any weak effects
i traded it away
green birch
What was your boon loadout? It’s odd that it was even an option if you had no weak effects
green birch
Did you have sweet surrender or empty inside at the time of the legendary appearing?
robust garden
sweet surrender
i have it rn
i have this
i hate life
i went aphrodite rose so maybe ill get a weak effect
but i didnt
ok
wooo
i finally got a weak effect
green birch
Ok nice. Great!
Thanks for all the answers, I was just making sure this wasn’t a bug aha
robust garden
i mean
it feels like a bug when you trade away a boon
but you get boons that amplify the boon you gave away
green birch
Ah yeah, happens a lot but it’s a feature, not a bug
frank dew
thats just honestly a intressting choice thing
green birch
To me a lot of the Dionysus boon tree feels that way— it all plays into festive fog effects but I prefer running with sick
frank dew
beside most supportive boons work with effects that can be gained from multiple sources so you can still pick it up from somewhere else later
wheat elbow
So here is something fun to consider.
A list of fgods ingame and how much I like them, in order
Poseidon
Dionysus
Aphrodite
Zeus
Athena
Artemis
Ares
Chaos
frank dew
how can you dislike artemis and chaos
wheat elbow
The list looks a bit deceiving because the first 5 entries were reaaally close to each other, I like all of them a lot.
Artemis I am a bit less fond of because she has crit in her kit. I don't like RNG.
frank dew
fair
wheat elbow
And regarding chaos, his timing is the worst, the boons he offers to me usually end up not being useful and his penalties have cost me runs on occassion.
There is no way in hell that I go see chaos when I am doing a high heat run or have the option of meeting another god.
There is no way in hell I ruin a run by meeting chaos shortly before I meet a boss.
frank dew
depends on what boons i already have and alot of other things
wheat elbow
Also, meeting chaos takes away one opportunity to choose your next room.
Yeah, that's the point.
frank dew
but the potential gain is huge
wheat elbow
Way too many "it depends on"s to consider for an outcome that is tied with even more risk.
Not that huge to me.
frank dew
i guess im just abit of a gambler
wheat elbow
Extra HP, extra Damage, Extra Ammo, Extra Money or Extra Darkness.
Extra HP is nice and usually one of the better things to take because the trade off is usually safe, BUT you took damage for getting there in the first place, so there is always that to consider.
Nothing guarantees you that the extra damage you get will be all that beneficial to you.
frank dew
id say money is one of the best ones
wheat elbow
Chaos, in his neverending humor likes to bless me with dash attack damage
when I am playing the rail
frank dew
it ensures that you can always get full use of the shop
wheat elbow
Extra Ammo is cute when you have a cast buid, darkness is nice when you are farming
I agree on the money, but that is a finicky thing as well.
frank dew
it is but again if you get good shops it end up with quite alot of extra bonuses
wheat elbow
On regular runs, you don't need the extra gold all that much. Between the naturally earned gold and other benefits, you usually can afford everything you want and need
Heated runs, different matter, but for those, depending on how hot they are, risking taking damage and suffering through whatever penalty you go through will way hard on you.
And that is, of course, ignoring the fact that you don't know for sure that you will even get a money reward.
frank dew
i dont find the penalties being that bad aside from the cost on dash
wheat elbow
(I am also not sure if that money boon even works on all income sources or just rooms. The game is surpsingly inconsistent regarding that)
Depends on the weapon you use.
wheat elbow
Cast penalties are ignoreable, so are traps, monster count and exploding corpses
On the other hand, not being able to see rewards, dash and, depending on the run, attack and special penalties can end up costing you a run
plucky oxide
Monster count can really suck if you get, say, Big Dusa Head room
wheat elbow
So yeah, usually, chaos rooms come down to "Will I meet chaos and risk ruining my run or will I meet another god who is bound to give me something useful?"
And it usually always comes down to the latter.
I only see chaos if I am being presented blue laundrel choices and am very early into a floor
and even that can end up biting you.
Oh yeah, that reminds me
I saw Ares legendary today.
It turns your doom effect into a slightly more terrible Dionysus effect under highly suspicious conditions.
Tell me again how Ares isn't the worst god in the game?
Oh yeah, Chaos exists.
plucky oxide
- Cast penalties, trap damage, movement penalties, health sacrifice (more or less constantly avoidable, or at least have he highest chances to be negligible)
- Exploding corpses and monster count (situationally awful to get, based upon what you might be running into next. A room filled with skulls and exploding corpses is not fun to deal with. Double big dusa heads is even worse.)
- Self harming moves (if they're your main source of damage, this becomes near-impossible to choose in a lot of conditions, unless you're willing to spend your health as currency. Self harming dash is the worst of all.)
Ares is my go-to utility pick, right after Athena for Last Stand. If I'm running a cast or attack build, that % damage is super nice, and really easy to find if you've already got a build going.
His cast is also insane, damage wise, and can easily buff your damage output on Theseus with little investment (and hard carry you, with a lot of investment)
wheat elbow
His cast is underwhelming.
The only thing the cast has going for it is the "it damages shielders" argument
which should not even exist in the first place.
plucky oxide
The thing that tests all my runs is my ability to deal damage to Theseus.
Therefor, it's in a really great state, and has a high value.
His curse effect is also unique in that it's not about absurdly high damage, but consistent/safe poke. Yes, the curse doesn't do ridiculous things, and I wish it had more interactions (looking at you, Artemis global crit), but it's got a very unique hit and run style of combat. Touching an enemy once can result in a lot of potential damage, and makes it more about diving in out at safe intervals to deal safe/consistent poke.
Inherently, this isn't as good as dealing 800 damage with a perfect shot from your bow, but I find I really like it on things like Empowered Nova sword (wherein I'll take either Ares special, or Athena special, if given the chance and their appropriate utility spells weren't available to me)
It's also neat because Theseus's windows of opportunity for attacking him can be so tight, so capitalizing on the smallest windows hypothetically means getting more bang out of your buck. I wouldn't say Ares is the strongest god, but the amount of times he's personally carried or helped me through the game is something I cannot understate.
Not to mention that the Aphrodite + Ares duo had to be removed from the game due to its overwhelming absurdity
charred ruin
What... Ares is good enough if solely because of the hunting blades and wrath
and early chaos that gives a good buff can help a run a lot
especially the extra gold from everything...
poseidon buff only gives extra gold from room rewards, but chaos gold buff is from every source. enemies, pots etc.
plucky oxide
The early 'never have to worry that much about money again' buff.
charred ruin
yeah, chaos holes in the 3rd biome are not worth it, as clearing rooms with the curse is more dangerous. but in the 1st biome its great
plucky oxide
Which is why I find starting egg to be a lot of fun! Some of my strongest starts have been with chaos boon rng.
charred ruin
The health lose is manageable. So other keepsake may be more beneficial than chaos egg.
plucky oxide
Aye, but I often find I squeeze more out of egg with a guaranteed early boon. Unless they've patched that part of the egg out of existence.
Doesn't say it in the description, but the bonus to rarity can't be passed up. I also find the early gold boom from Chaos also positively impacts the odds of finding Chaos again, mostly because buying one from the well becomes an easy choice.
wheat elbow
Once the developers have dealt with shield ridiculousness
as they should
Ares' usefulness will plummet even further because him having something that bypasses sick ridiculousness and a duo boon are his two only saving graces right now.
At least in my book.
Other gods offer just as much if not more damage overall while also offering a big amount of utility.
charred ruin
zeus still sucks unless you get like 10 boons from him in a run
wheat elbow
Zeus absolutely needs more than one boon to work, yes
But in my opnion, he starts being useful once you have jolted
and he only scales upwards even further from that
charred ruin
he needs at least 1 boon that's useful without any combos
plucky oxide
I like Zeus' dash. It's also a nice passive dps-upper that goes through Theseus shield
wheat elbow
The on-damage hit he has is one of the if not the most powerful one in the game by sheer damage
He also has a passive that makes your wrath gain better
plucky oxide
His lack of utility sours him somewhat, for me. He doesn't play nice with other gods.
wheat elbow
That is true.
charred ruin
thing is zeus is designed to be effective against mobs but the problems in this game are the bosses, not big groups of small enemies
wheat elbow
You need to go hard on Zeus to make him great
frank dew
he works pretty well with artemis
wheat elbow
but he properly rewards that kind of play
Artemis plays well with everyone. She has 3 duo boons after all
plucky oxide
It's not Zeus that works well with Artemis, but Artemis that works well with everyone ^
wheat elbow
Artemis is as basic as it gets
Some runs, I get 3-6% basic crit chance from her + marked
and that is all the crit chance I will need for the entire game to make my damage skyrocket
plucky oxide
Choosing Zeus is like saying 'alright, this is what I'm playing'
Same with Dio, to some extent, if you get him early
wheat elbow
Her entire cast engine is strong as well and then goes and synergizes with other gods casts even better
I disagree on Dio.
Depending on the weapon, one sick boon of him can make your game great without ever seeing him again.
(I do love seeing him again though because his boons are a lot of fun to play around with)
Also, give me Dionysus and Aphrodite duo every game
Seeing these Sick damage zicks worth 72 damage is great
plucky oxide
Maybe like, a good sick boon. I usually take him if I have a decent Attack book that I'd like to take a chance to trade for.
Sick's the type of thing where I need to have the right weapon/augments in order for the ability to be taken as far as it can.
wheat elbow
Yes, I can agree with that
But even if you consider that, Sick just works nicely with almost all weapons all things considered.
The spammier the weapon the better.
Which is the fun part, all weapons in this game are spammy.
If I were to make changes to make Dyonysus a better god, it would be A: Either have his wrath effect take less wrath or rework it intirely into something else
B: Have festive fog apply a stacking sicening effect to enemies standing inside it
(could be an upgrade boon too)
On an unrelated note, It took me a long while to recognize that Aphrodites cast is the only cast in the game that by default also applies a negative status effect
I usually looked down on that cast, but everytime I reconsider, I change my opinion of it slightly for the better
plucky oxide
Aphro's allllll about her debuff.
And I also really don't like that cast, mostly because it ended by crazy streak.
Charge up time takes too long. Other than that, its godly.
Dealt 1k damage with it consistently on the same run that I died. I would just open myself up too much against Theseus and he'd 180 around on the turn of a dime to absorb the entire damage and my cast.
wheat elbow
Yeah, Theseus is hard
plucky oxide
Still one of my favorite casts in the game tho
I just can't rely on it in this current build of the game until either I improve or things change
wheat elbow
Understandably so. I absolutely agree there.
plucky oxide
I find Aphro is good for her dash and then trying to get as much utility out of the debuff as possible.
wheat elbow
Aphrodites only weak points are her cast and her wrath imo. The cast is awkward to use and fit into a build even though its good by the numbers
And her wrath is, well, you know.
Aphrodites dash is god-tier, yes, but her attack and special are also decent.
wheat elbow
You mean Aphrodite wrath?
Don't know. Took it only once and was only able to use it against beefboy and thesseus
plucky oxide
Because on that same run I died I lost two to three death defies to a charmed shield guy that spun around, and for each spin I was dealt 55 damage.
wheat elbow
The charme effect while fighting I don't know. I usually just kill whatever looks unfriendly, so I don't usually see how the charmed enemies exactly behave
plucky oxide
With no time to recover -.-
It was super awesome!! Streak Ender, right there
turbid needle
Aphrodite's Wrath is amazing imo. It's super easy to beat Theseus if you charm Asterius
plucky oxide
On bosses it's great. On mobs they one shot me three times in a row
rocky sage
i just lost to theseus becase the rails special just gets blocked forever
its so frustrating
turbid needle
I don't find that really any wraths are very useful in normal chambers
wheat elbow
@turbid needle Wait, charming them actually worked?
plucky oxide
Athena's starting wrath %
wheat elbow
I saw them having the heart icons but they continued to kill me anyway
turbid needle
I dont think Theseus can be charmed, but Asterius definitely can
wheat elbow
Interesting
@turbid needle Poseidon somehow ends up being my go-to wrath effect
very high damage and 5 seconds of invincibility
Athena can become similarily good, just the base damage poseidon offers get's replaced by your build in potencial, which can be better or worse
plucky oxide
Poseidon's damage was buffed insanely high. Fix the collision detection and I'd pick Poseidon up more for sure.
wheat elbow
And Artemis Wrath numbers look low but apparently, they scale sky-high with larger distance
turbid needle
Poseidon's wrath is definitely my favorite
wheat elbow
I would like to know how high that can go
Artemis' Wrath effect actually feels somewhat spammable.
This is enhanced by the fact that she can duo boon with Zeus and Athena who both have Wrath boons as well
median ridge
i once had a really good run with aphrodite’s legendary where i was able to keep theseus and asterius charmed the entire fight. aaaaaand then charm got patched against bosses so now the affect hardly even lasts long enough for them to get a single swing off each other
wheat elbow
(Poseidon has one for damage taken as well, that one has saved me a couple times)
plucky oxide
Oh well Maledict, at least you got the experience the glory!
charred ruin
what's a good build in order to grind keepsake level? I mean, get through encounters fast at 0 heat even if you aren't built to beat theseus?
without relying on a specific keepsake as well
wheat elbow
I honestly never really cared about farming keepsakes
I just keep using the ones I end up using a lot
the others don't improve all that much for me to matter
like the god keepsakes
plucky oxide
Ares cast and/or shield are in a great spot, from my experience Novril. Whatever you're comfortable with, I'd say.
wheat elbow
but even then, because you usually pick them up for the first floor, you get a lot of farming done for them anyway, so it's a wash
charred ruin
yeah but for the other good keepsakes, the ones that really help you at stages 2-3 when they are level 3
wheat elbow
As I said, just pick and play them. You will get there eventually.
To me, the only two "endgame" keepsakes are skull earing, Myrmidon Bracer
plucky oxide
I usually play floor 1 and 2 how I want to secure builds, and then if I feel comfortable with my build, I'll take something into 3 that I want to level up. Only one I haven't done that for yet is the spear tip.
wheat elbow
That sounds terrible
I wouldn't want to bring something that I don't feel is good enough to play regularly to elysium in order to level it up.
plucky oxide
But by the time I've secured a run build-wise, I'm already confident I'll beat Theseus.
A la Hunting Blades
wheat elbow
I know that fighting the bull twice + Thesseus and all the stupid shielders and spear guys in Elysium will take a lot out of me
I mean, sure, if you make an effort out of cheesing any game, that may work.
pastel jolt
asphodel's usually where i level stuff up
unless i'm doing a run where i'd rather have a second god keepsake in asphodel ofc
wheat elbow
I don't see why. Asphodel and Elysium both have super big and long rooms
and not even all that many.
pastel jolt
because asphodel is easy
wheat elbow
Tartarus is where many small rooms are, much better
plucky oxide
An Artemis+Athena run that already had last stand, is also a floor 3 that I'm comfortable leveling on.
wheat elbow
Artemis Athena together are very strong
A huge crit chance, very strong damage and super effective casts
plucky oxide
But I get these strong builds more often by trying to manipulate my choices in 1 and 2. Hence why 3 often feels safe for me.
rocky sage
@pastel jolt until you are stupid as me and take minus 51% movement speed from chaos and go into the hydra
pastel jolt
plucky oxide
That's living life on the edge
charred ruin
I hope the upcoming update adds a lot of content bc right now there's not much to do. and paying a ton of darkness just for another reward swap doesn't feel rewarding.
rocky sage
im addicted to taking chaos' stuff
wheat elbow
So here is my idea for adding another layer of frustration and fun to the game:
rocky sage
also i want to convert heat to darkness more efficiently
plucky oxide
^
wheat elbow
Add a pact of punishment option that makes every fight gain one of the gods' rage effects
rocky sage
so i hope i can do that without checking the dealer
every time
@wheat elbow why would i ever do that
plucky oxide
That's my theory for what the final floor is, DeGrand
rocky sage
but who will u be fighting?
wheat elbow
Because it would actually be fun to play with and against
Take Poseidon for example
he gives all enemies super high movement speed and knock back on movement
Changes up gameplay and makes it more interesting
Artemis apparently gives enemies a chance to crit which is terrifying
Ares makes random blade rift appear in a room
rocky sage
u are nearing the exit from tartarus seeing the light of real sky
and in the gate to your freedom
graceful bough
I don't understand the point of the early Minotaur fight.
rocky sage
stands percy jackson
graceful bough
You need to almost kill him, and then he has almost full health again in the boss fight.
wheat elbow
@graceful bough It ends runs.
frank dew
think thats abit too limited a referance @rocky sage
plucky oxide
It's a chance to talk to Mino and flesh out his character :V
graceful bough
It sucks.
wheat elbow
That early minotaur fight has cost me a couple runs
graceful bough
It doesn't suck suck.
rocky sage
@frank dew i would love to fight kronos idk what about u
graceful bough
But he should have significantly reduced health in the fight with Theseus.
At least compared to what it is.
plucky oxide
It's also a chance to take a bit out of the hectic Theseus fight and learn half of the fight's rotation. I think the 20% off is nice.
wheat elbow
Maybe they will do a plot twist and make us fight persephone
Or Nyx
I would like fighting Nyx.
vale sphinx
I mean if you cannot already beat the moo boy how were you going to win anyway
rocky sage
@wheat elbow in the actual mythology zeus fears her
wheat elbow
@vale sphinx Sounds weird but I feel somehow more comfortable fighting Thesseus and Horny Boy together than just the bull
vale sphinx
¯_(ツ)_/¯
wheat elbow
@rocky sage I mean, I fear Nyx as well, but that can be blamed on Smite.
echo sphinx
I think the Mino fight is wroth it. And yeah, Bird is right. If you can't beat him, chances are you can't beat the duo.
wheat elbow
What I am interested in is seeing some of the placeholder models being exchanged
echo sphinx
ikr
wheat elbow
@echo sphinx There are plenty of situation where I beat the bull alone but lose so much life in the process that it will cost me the double fight
rocky sage
i hate the fact that if u use the rail theseus becomes such an obnoxious enemy
echo sphinx
Then (in my experience) chances are you your build wouldn't have been good enough to survive the duo.
Every run I've had were I've fought and beaten Mino, I've won the duo.
admittedly just two
rocky sage
i beat the duo once and thats cuz i had a broken build
echo sphinx
I've only gotten 4 wins
wheat elbow
I had enough runs for that to not happen.
graceful bough
I have 7 death defiances. If I die I'm going to be pissed.
rocky sage
lol
i think because theseus always holds his shield and using the rail against it is near impossible perhaps there can be a mechanic where if u shoot his shield enough he will drop it for a bit
graceful bough
I just ran into Patroclus so I coulda had 8.
@rocky sage I would be 100% on board with that.
echo sphinx
I just find the rail bad anyways 
graceful bough
The dropping the shield bit.
wheat elbow
I played a game on my alt account where I finished the game with the rail in 22 Minutes
That felt good
echo sphinx
Yeah that would honestly help the "oh my god shields are obnoxious" part 😛
echo sphinx
The bow is trash yeah
I don't know, maybe I've just had bad luck. But my attempts at the rail always lead to pain and suffering.
rocky sage
also add kronos' scythe
wheat elbow
The Bow by itself is trash but it has some of the most exciting hammer upgrades
You really have to spam Dash/Attack to make the most out of it
echo sphinx
I personally hate bow because it immobilizes you and from the way I see it I can do way more DPS with the sword AND still be mobile.
rocky sage
the rail usually gets me to theseus where i just get blocked out of existance
@echo sphinx but then u can litrally camp enemies before spawning
literally
wheat elbow
The bow has the potencial to scale sky-high with Artemis
rocky sage
rather efficiently
wheat elbow
If you get a good dash attack boon together with crit on attack
You can see 200-300 crit numbers easily
echo sphinx
Yeah but like, I can do the same with a shield if I really wanted to, and hurt multiple, and not have to time the power shot.
wheat elbow
Pair that with pref status and bloodstones stuck in enemies
and it can get ridicutarded
rocky sage
or have an athena upgrade with the rail special plus the hammer and deal 184x3
wheat elbow
@echo sphinx I never time the power shot. Takes too much out of me.
I played a bow run today (not the one I uploaded) where with just crit attack and dash attack, I had those numbers
and then I also got the double attack hammer on top of that
echo sphinx
I only do bow runs when it's my darkness marked one- so speaking of little experience I always try and time it. I would feel like I'm playing poorly if I didn't atlast try.
wheat elbow
so I had these powerful shots twice in one go
graceful bough
I'm going up against Lawful Good Paladin and The Big Guy. Wish me luck.
echo sphinx
GL
pastel jolt
i love twin shot for that exact reason
echo sphinx
May the odds be ever in your favor.
graceful bough
I have twin shot it's great.
I hate that he can block while aiming his spear.
I hate that he can block while he's literally walking the opposite direction.
I wons!
That was a good run. I feel I would have made it well into the fourth biome.
echo sphinx
>insert yearn for content
turbid needle
Bow is my favorite weapon. I think Twin Shot was its best upgrade even before the range buff, but now especially I always hope to get it
graceful bough
I just selected the longer-range Daedalus buff for the spear, and it's so unimpressive the base special still feels like a more viable attack.
Also, every single time I have ever rerolled a room, I've gotten Heat.
echo sphinx
mfw haven't unlocked that in the mirror yet
pastel jolt
it depends on what you're rerolling, arkatox
and also what's on the other exits, if it's a multiple-choice room
graceful bough
I usually use it when there's a single exit that leads to ambrosia.
green birch
Look at the wreath color of the reward for a better understanding of what you can reroll into.
blue: permanent upgrades (heat, darkness, keys, ambrosia, etc)
gold: run upgrades (centaur hearts, good boons, trial of the gods, obols, etc)
green birch
because if it was truly random and you had ten rerolls, you could get an absurdly unfair number of boons aha
pastel jolt
you also cannot reroll an exit into something that's already in the room
echo sphinx
Alright re-rolls sound alot less fun then what I first thought 
pastel jolt
i mean, they're still fun, they just don't snap the game in half
wheat elbow
@echo sphinx Beat the game with the bow in 21.37 minutes
Which is just 18 seconds away from my personal best
pastel jolt
they're a neat thing to have when i've gotten a centaur heart that i don't want AGAIN
green birch
the rerolls are very much meant to be a darkness sink, and they're balanced to be as not game breaking as possible aha
graceful bough
@green birch Then don't allow that many rerolls in the game?
echo sphinx
I tihnk my fastest with any is... about a half hour?
wheat elbow
Ares ruined it by showing up and being useless.
Then again, Poseidon was underwhelming in that run as well
green birch
what boons did Ares offer?
echo sphinx
Actually I think I had a 21 minute hunting blades run but uh... that doesn't count in my book
graceful bough
@pastel jolt Why would you ever not want a centaur heart?
wheat elbow
He gave me his useless dash
graceful bough
I sometimes pick it over boons.
pastel jolt
because i like to live dangerously.
echo sphinx
I sitll don't see how the bow can be made useful bt hey thats might jsut be bad luck
wheat elbow
The first time he showed up and I could not ignore him
The other two times, I went straight for something else.
Which is still a netloss because these portals with Ares could have been other gods
pastel jolt
the last run i cleared i had 175 max hp by the end
wheat elbow
Poseidon was not a big help in the speed running departement either.
green birch
A good defense is a good offense. Having higher attack damage granted by a boon or pom makes fights go faster, so you take less damage
graceful bough
I'm thinking the reroll mechanic was unnecessary at this point.
echo sphinx
Last run I had 310 by the end yikes I play this differently
green birch
it's why Skull Earring is one of my favorite boons
pastel jolt
"i don't think it's personally useful to me in all situations, therefore it shouldn't be in the game at all"?
graceful bough
I love Skull Earring.
pastel jolt
god, you must live a wonderful life.
wheat elbow
The reroll mechanic is a good way to dump darkness into something once you have maxed everything out.
graceful bough
@wheat elbow Basically.
pastel jolt
what they said!
wheat elbow
Problem is only then a thing once you take the pact of punishment into the account
green birch
and anything pact related has to be taken with a grain of salt, as not all things scale well with it aha
echo sphinx
I have everything mostly maxed, just missing 3 upgrades on the +rare% chance... then onto the rerolls
still gotta get enough keys, too
graceful bough
Alecto: (runs onto a spike trap of her own free will)
Alecto: Why, you!
green birch
keyfarms are a lot easier to do now that the third area exists thankfully
wheat elbow
@pastel jolt Ares showed up and gave me the dash that dealt no damage. Aphrodites dash could have given me a second debuff for prefered status and better damage, Athena dash would have given me better damage, protection and a second debuff for prefered status without having to use the special, Baccus doing the same
pastel jolt
why am i being pinged
wheat elbow
Poseidon actually would have given me the dash but I did not take it because it can interact weird with some enemies.
green birch
I'm the one that asked
wheat elbow
It sounded like you were referring to me
graceful bough
I should probably rephrase my sentiment.
The reroll mechanic isn't nearly as cool as it seems.
green birch
how did it give you no damage? blade dash is one my favorite dashes
wheat elbow
The damage is mediocre and becomes even more ignorable once you consider mobile enemies.
wheat elbow
You can invest additional boons into making the rifts bigger and/or have them pull enemies in, but why bother investing three boons into rifts if you can get the same and better for just one boon from other gods
graceful bough
Blade dash is pretty dang powerful.
wheat elbow
You will never convince me about Ares being good.
echo sphinx
Area is one of my favorites for sure
green birch
I'd actually recommend going for a blade rift-centric build. It stacks great with its upgrades and even its basic damage is decent
graceful bough
You know what's not? Extending Jab.
echo sphinx
Ignoring hunting blades, blade rifts are still really awesome. Especially against mino if you have the dash cause you can just lead him around when he charges and do buttloads of damage.
wheat elbow
What is there to be blade rift centric about? 4 boons, 5 if you count the weird doom interaction, 6 if Artemis is not busy helping Bullhead and Hornyboy
oh yeah
I forgot the wrath effect
That one is actually decent
pastel jolt
blade rift 
wheat elbow
but still overshadowed by a lot of other wraths
echo sphinx
Oh I had never tried the wrath until today
oh boy
it is even more broken
so much fun
pastel jolt
listen, there is something so joyful about being able to fling out a bunch of death-blenders
wheat elbow
Visually, they are amazing.
pastel jolt
also it's a nice departure from my usual playstyle
echo sphinx
You haven't seen the light my friend
wheat elbow
They make you think they don't suck because their one niche, being good against shielders
plucky oxide
fastest run times are with Ares, on my end
wheat elbow
overshadows the bad parts for many
echo sphinx
Death blenders are love, death blenders are life.
wheat elbow
@plucky oxide Hunting Blades?
wheat elbow
How quick were you?
pastel jolt
This Is Why I Love Blade Rifts
green birch
Honestly, there's a way to finesse a good use for anything? I used to hate poseidon boons until I went and tried to raise his keepsake level... then I understood
plucky oxide
lemme go secure a run so i can check
pastel jolt
delicious damage 🍽
green birch
Dio and I still have a pretty rocky relationship but he's my go-to choice for rail
wheat elbow
@green birch The difference being that Poseidon actually has good boons.
Yeah, Dio and the rail are a match made in heaven.
Give me Zeus/Dio/ Rail every game
throw in Aphro for good measure.
echo sphinx
Poseidon has some absolutely fantastic boons, specifically the one that gives bonus hp/darkness/money
wheat elbow
Not sure if that is the best you can get, but boy is it enjoyable.
green birch
Ares blade rifts are great though. They melt the Hyrdra in minutes
echo sphinx
That one is so powerful if you can get it some upgrades
frank dew
blade rifts melt evrything
echo sphinx
Melt hydra? pfft, they melt theo&mino in a minute.
pastel jolt
i'm so sad that i didn't record that fight tbh
i should aim for that build again before the next patch drops and hunting blades gets the nerfbat
frank dew
if you have the proper boons for it blade rifts finished thesus in like 30sec
wheat elbow
Okay, jokers, I will take you at face value.
I will play a game with Ares
Give me a full build
Weapon and Keepsakes
echo sphinx
You gotta get hella lucky
wheat elbow
Keepsakes for floor 1, 2 and 3
echo sphinx
Mine was a sword run
green birch
Shield or sword
echo sphinx
Ares, Artemis, Spearhead for me
wheat elbow
Sword then because Ares is not allowed to hide behind the op shield
green birch
ares boon for tartarus, skull earring at some point
echo sphinx
I got lucky enough to get hella good luck and get the duo boon around the start of floor 3
and then steamrolled from there
pastel jolt
ares boon in tartarus, artemis boon in asphodel aiming for hunting blades, faceroll
echo sphinx
Hunting blades seriously makes everything a joke
pastel jolt
i got hunting blades in tartarus on that fourth-run-clear and it was the happiest time of my life
frank dew
yeh tbh blade rifts themselfs are not THAT strong its the hunting blades thats the biggy
pastel jolt
i mean, the blade rifts are strong
frank dew
yeh but not OP
echo sphinx
blade rifts are still a really strong pick if you have no other dash cmv
green birch
Go for the rare and epic boons, I honestly don't care if your build is doom based or rift based
pastel jolt
hunting blades is broken because it superglues them to the enemy's face
frank dew
i feel like Hunting blades could be seperated into 2 boons one that gives speed and one that tracks
green birch
if you can get doom on special that's a nice one
pastel jolt
i feel like i should also point out that huntign blades isn't exactly 'new'
green birch
is the ares/aphro duo in the game still? cause that was a good one
green birch
pour one out
frank dew
i dunno i only played the most recent update so
pastel jolt
yeah, i was right - "Hunting Blades" was "Hungry Blades" before the Murder Death Kill update
pastel jolt
Hungry Blades was longer-lasting homing rifts; Hunting Blades is faster homing rifts & Engulfing Vortex (which used to be Ares' legendary) got the longer-lasting part
green birch
man I need to read back up on the boon trees, I havent played in a minute
graceful bough
Extended Jab might very well be the most disappointing thing I have ever chosen in this game.
Literally everything does more damage than my basic attack.
I'm more effective literally just dashing into enemies at this point.
Getting hurt deals more damage.
green birch
th. then. why.... did you take it?
graceful bough
Because I thought, "That sounds cool."
median ridge
sometimes you gotta try out different hammers to see what they do
placid pike
Got to the Hydra for the first time on no mirror, 60 heat, but got frustrated with taking dumb hits from the lava and ended up getting sloppy and dying.
Hey, extending jab is fine. Just pair it with Orpheus' keepsake, run away, and slowly chip away at enemies.
graceful bough
I'm not familiar and certainly not experienced with every boon and option in the game.
Every once in a while you gotta experiment with what you've done less.
median ridge
experimenting and trying out all the content is part of the game experience
green birch
thats fair I guess
graceful bough
And in this case it was a baaaaaaad idea.
placid pike
It's a safe upgrade since it means you can stay farther away from enemies and keep them stunlocked
graceful bough
What @median ridge said.
green birch
happens to the best of us
I was a fool and paired poseidon dash with that one hammer boost that... makes your dash attack do more damage...
placid pike
Or just get the Boon limitation contract and have the game experiment for you
Spoilers. It's not much of a min-maxer.
graceful bough
Oof. I don't understand shields.
Enemy isn't facing you? Blocked.
Enemy looking straight at you? Deal damage!
placid pike
Bait out an attack then go behind them
median ridge
i hope the patch will address the weird animation lock that happens on sword when you have the dash attack hammer
graceful bough
@placid pike I've learned to do that, but they feel so inconsistent.
placid pike
I hope the animation lock for charging the bow will finally get fixed. Been in for months.
graceful bough
Especially with Theseus, but really with all shield peeps.
Theseus' shield is ridiculous.
placid pike
Probably because it is. Shield foes definitely need tweeking.
echo sphinx
Shield foes are more annoying then interesting tbph
celest lake
Greatshields can be hit when they're charging for an attack, or you can dash behind them and backstab before they turn. But the timing can be tight, and if you miss you're taking damage
placid pike
Sigh, explosive shot again. It's strong but too slow for my liking
celest lake
Theseus is dumb because he has an instant turn speed and blocks attacks that he shouldn't be able to block, like lightning
median ridge
when i have a sub-optimal build in elysium i try to use the room traps against the shield elysians
graceful bough
@celest lake Theseus and be literally walking the opposite direction, and block your attacks.
celest lake
Yeah, Theseus is ridic
graceful bough
Me: spends 10 seconds wall-slamming a single enemy to death with the spear
Good god I need more attack power.
This game is usually great when it comes to balance and RNG. But sometiiiiimes... 😛
and I'm in Elysium. Like geez.
echo sphinx
Good luck. Elysium is the murdererrrrr of bad runs 😛
placid pike
That's because everything's a bloody hp sponge
echo sphinx
And they also spit out crazy amounts of attacks in hordes
looking at you, elysium witches
wheat elbow
Ares Sword Run ended up leaving a bad taste in my mouth.
God the Ares dash very early
and then I never saw him again until...I believe it was Asphodel
Effectively, I only had his dash and his cast
pastel jolt
sometimes it's just a matter of luck
wheat elbow
Still beat my best time because best girl and best boy Ares showed up
pastel jolt
not every run is gonna go exactly the way you want it
placid pike
God, I hate fighting the Fury sisters with Whipped Frenzy and increased damage.
wheat elbow
Sword Nova Dionysus special + Aphrodite attack caried me super fast
placid pike
Moves are both too fast to react to and hit like trucks.
And only one dodge means the margin for error is small
wheat elbow
Would have been even faster with an actual good dash and not having lost my cast, but on the other hand, the cast came useful for thesseus shield in the end and a couple of shielders, so I can't be too mad.
Real star of that run was Poseidon though
Easy way to apply prefered status + Poseidon Wrath = complete carnageä
Ah, no, my mistake
I saw Ares twice in Tartarus and then I never saw him again.
Took the arrowhead for Asphodel and saw Artemis once.
She gave me 4% crit and left, nowhere to be seen.
Would have head a third chance to meat Ares later on, but that would have had to be the bull fight, which I was not willing to take
graceful bough
I don't know how in the world I won with a bad run when I usually lose with good runs.
Also, the second time I've beaten them one hit away from dying on my last life.
graceful bough
Definitely the make mistakes part.
wheat elbow
You missed the part that got cencored.
graceful bough
Not so much hubris.
wheat elbow
I had to think fairly hard about what word caused the bot to react.
graceful bough
I must have.
pastel jolt
yeah, unfortunately we can't whitelist that particular word else i think we would have by now 
unborn inlet
Almost all my wins so far have had athena or artemis in them
Wonder if there's a pattern forming here
plucky oxide
Those are my times on each weapon so far, @wheat elbow
As you asked
Tried doing some heat runs before not playing for a week after i lost my streak to that darn Aphro run ; . ;
I REALLY messed up in this run when I took more crit % damage instead of securing artemis' crit debuff. I already had weak, I was a fool.
wheat elbow
@plucky oxide I was around around the 19 minute mark with a Bow-Ares build.
It wasn't too too bad, but the real heroes regarding that are, again, Aphrodite and Dionysus.
Both showed up early, gave me a special and an attack for early prefered status and that carried me throughout the entire early game.
Had Ares wrath effect which I never used because it ended up being less damage than anything else I could do.
Dash was fairly okay for the most part, but only because I got epic versions of both the absorption effect as well as an epic size increase.
Took even a pom into the size, so my blade rifts were like 60% bigger than usual.
Met Ares a lot in Elysium, Artemis as well, never saw Hunting Blades though.
Here is another negative about Ares and hunting for hunting blades:
Artemies keeps wanting to give you rewards that reduce dislodging time or give dislodging damage
First Artemis I saw gave me both these two boons as well as 5% crit.
Took the latter of course, but I am sure that these passive effects don't factor in for duo boons
plucky oxide
Yeah, I generally (at least for me) it a risk to try for hunting blades. Its more of an afterthough to try for Artemis once the boon pool has been dried up, than it is something I hunt for from the very beginning. The damage of ares cast alone is pretty nuts, but the reason it shines is because it lets you do things during its damage output. It's a really passive, and powerful, tool. Not having hunting blades just has to make you think about how ricochets and corner trapping is going to play out. I'm not a big fan of Ares wrath. Poseidon is just better, with less synergy needed.
And it sucks that Artemis has both (give more casts) and (casts exit faster) for Ares-hunting, but when accruing more casts it more-than makes up for it. Getting lucky with an egg and artemis can get you up to ten casts before you're even done with meg. The problem is that those casts are worthless without the proper cast behind it, and Theseus is really only at disadvantage against Artemis' exit wounds (deal damage when cast leaves) and Ares cast.
Just had the perfect spear attack, spin to win. Absolutely insane. I don't think I could have asked for a better Artemis/Athena run for spear.
wheat elbow
It isn't passive because you still have to actively use it.
calm sable
I'm interested in that 17 minute rail win 
wheat elbow
And even though it deals okay damage, you lose out 50% attack and special damage
rugged apex
it's passive because you don't have to think about how you use it
unlike, say, zeus cast
which goes places and fails to enter and is generally more difficult to keep track of
autumn tapir
wow I'm more interested in all of those times, I think my fastest post-Beefy has been 29 minutes
umbral panther
Does anyone have recommendations for the 120 skull run? Like what's a better build for where to allocate the skulls for the game to not be so insanely difficult 
wheat elbow
@autumn tapir I actually thought forgoing my new safefile and record more games on my big one. Would you be interested in that?
autumn tapir
yeah, I'd find it interesting to see how people do these so fast (especially Theseus)
wheat elbow
I will record one for you tomorrow then.
robust garden
does anyone now if the pierced butterfly buff stays even if you unequip it?
autumn tapir
it doesn't
atomic star
Has the gameplay ever been that you can't switch keepsakes after a boss? (except, you know, when there was only 1 boss)
atomic star
Well, one part of it is with the Cthonic Coinpurse where as soon as you equip it you get gold
I'm guessing that a certain number of things happen "when you equip" and leave the menu. Maybe the effect could change when you actually enter the next room (like when you first start the run)
autumn tapir
I believe the main reason that won't happen is because some people will want to equip Coinpurse so they can buy from the Well in the hallway
pastel jolt
there was also the loophole where you could switch between cerb's collar and another keepsake and you'd keep getting healed for however much hp it gave
atomic star
Which of the spear hammer upgrades are fun?
unkempt pagoda
quick spin
atomic star
Is Deathless stand (makes you impervious longer) mutually exclusive with (the one that gives you more health after a death defiance)
wheat elbow
You can get them both
And I am fairly sure they aren'tr mutually exclusive to one another
rugged apex
they aren't mutually exclusive, no.
native ether
you can get both at the same time
green birch
None of the boons are mutually exclusive technically
wheat elbow
Except for all Attack, special, cast, dash and wrath boons, that is
zenith trail
T-POSE for 50 damage
charred ruin
@umbral panther abuse the explosive return+poison bug before it gets patch. you have 2 days. gogogo.
charred ruin
some combo that does 10X damage more than its supposed to. so you kill everything within seconds
very easy to finish 120 heat with this
that thing is so bugged that merely equipping dio keepsake makes the explosion trigger this poison, even without any boon
as for the pact loadout for 120 I tend to raise everything to the max but don't touch enemy damage, healing amount, and boon choices, and this gets you to exactly 120.
the latter 3 give you a huge punishment that's not worth the heat amount they bring
wheat elbow
@autumn tapir I uploaded a video of an 20 minute run on youtube, as I promised. You can find it in the self promotion channel
marble cradle
how do we suggest changes in this discord?
potent agate
marble cradle
cant talk in it for some reason :/
green birch
It’s currently locked as the dev team prepares for the next update
potent agate
Presently the answer is "wait a lil while" because the new update is coming in like two days, yeah
marble cradle
ok fair enough
green birch
However, you can gain access to post their later by following the pinned instructions in the channel
marble cradle
i just lost a death defiance to the barges in asphodel again
stable oyster
Murder boat?
copper berry
That is one thicc lad.
echo sphinx
ahhh that explains it
fathom hawk
bahahahahaha
echo sphinx
love that boon
copper berry
Looks like he also had Ocean's Bounty
pastel jolt
i have NO IDEA how this fight is going to go but it should be funny at least
the build was supposed to be based around zeus attack and then i got artemis special AND chaos special and was like "fine okay i guess i'm going with special"
AHAHAHAHAHHA
that fight was fun bc that's the first time i've ended up pushing theseus to phase 2 while asterius is still alive
man, i had a good build going with shield special and then took mirage flight and ruined it
i sure do love when my shield hits the three enmies currently in the room and then decides to go sightseeing for a while
wheat elbow
At least you aren't defenseless while that happens.
pastel jolt
i mean i might as well be :c
celest lake
It does seem strange that mirage flight makes the shield slower to return. I wonder if that's intended
rugged apex
well, it does say it makes the flights longer, so it probably is - but it's kind of weird
green birch
It is in a way. The thought is that since you still have access to your attack, you’re not totally defenseless while it’s gone.
hard holly
I mean, its the only way shield special isnt totally useless, but it does make it insignificant
Since you get to throw it out and hit people with it less, even if the damage it does is low as hell either way
pastel jolt
i mean, it very much wasn't useless before i picked up mirage flight
the issue is that the "flights take longer" thing seems..... idk, a bit pointless if it can't hit enemies twice
it just sort of meanders around
hard holly
I imagine its there to have a "downside"
Though I honestly have no idea why you would give a downside to a shield special upgrade
Sudden Sunder doesnt have one, and sword special is good as is
rugged apex
it basically just makes it bad with explosive return
which seems like not great design?
hard holly
Can you pick those 2 together?
hard holly
Huh, that is stupid
blazing cobalt
Makes any special related boon worse as well
hard holly
Honestly, Id be just for a total rework of shield special
wheat elbow
Fun fact:
Zeus cast is easy to hit
by missingt
Aim for a wall instead, makes the cast rather reliable
rugged apex
not if the wall is further away than its travel distance
wheat elbow
That's a bummer of course
On topic of the shield, I would like a rework of the hammer upgrades.
A couple of them are fine and dandy, but most just seem to be unecessarily awkward to use or don't change up much
If I were to rate the weapons by how interesting the hammer is for them, it'd be
Bow >= Rail > Spear > Sword > Shield
All of the Bow Upgrades are either very strong or transformative in some way.
Getting a hammer feels huge with it.
Same for the Rail which has the most transformative overall. I rank it only slightly lower than the bow because there are like 3 upgrades that make your regular attacks better at being regular without much of a difference.
Spear has some of the worst and some of the best upgrades, so it's a mixed back.
Sword has 3-4 good ones, mostly the special related once, while the others are simply terrible
and the Shield upgrades have 2-3 that I like and consider to be truly good while the other just feel non-consequential.
hard holly
Eh, I can think of 4 that are good
Both the rush upgrades are amazing and I love getting either at any point, the dash attack one is fun, the double attack one is a bit weird but also quite good
And the rest are shield upgrades so theyre all basically pointless
I mean, special upgrades
rugged apex
imo most of the sword upgrades are great
wheat elbow
Faster Bullrush, Dash Attack, Shield Explosion and Shield throw hitting up to 8 enemies are the only ones I really like
hard holly
Spears upgrades used to be fine and all
rugged apex
barring armor slayer and flurry blade
celest lake
The thing about Mirage Flight is it's pretty much fine in act 1 and act 2, and it's fine against Theseus. It's only a minor downside in Elysium unless you get very unlucky
hard holly
But the change to additive instead of multiplicative killed them
Oh yeah shield explosion is supposedly good
wheat elbow
The latter is only useful in cheesy special runs with higher heat, the dash attack literally get's me killed everytime I take it
hard holly
Never had it, so no comment
celest lake
Shield Explosion is great
potent agate
The main thing that bugs me about the shield upgrades is that not one of them is actually transformative in the function of either the shield or the special, and more of them are non-transformative upgrades to the special -- which is by far the lamest of the weapon specials -- than any of the other weapon/hammer sets
celest lake
Especially if you have a good special boon
hard holly
Actually, the rush upgrades are fairly transformative
wheat elbow
The Iny human understands me.
hard holly
The powershot one more than the fast one, but you play very differently with either
Or if youre lucky, both
wheat elbow
Yeah, but compare that to all Bow upgrades
You can have instant shots (which I heavily underestimated, they are amazing btw)
Doubleshot, trippleshot, which increase your damage while also changing your aim-game
Explosive shot which changes your charging meta game
hard holly
I mean Bow has like no transformative upgrades beyond instant shots (which are kinda meh, since they just remove the most fun part of bows)
potent agate
and the other three that DeGrand just said
wheat elbow
Both bow special upgrades which are just flat improvements that are fun to see and use
hard holly
Tripleshot you could make a case for being transformative (but frankly, also not really, the only thing that changes is that you might dash closer, but you often tend to anyway)
wheat elbow
The power shot is the only one that does not transform the bow gameplay, but it rewards good play with the bow even further.
hard holly
Doubleshot doesnt at all
wheat elbow
Same goes for the upgraded damage on distanced enemies
hard holly
Explosive shot, not really? I guess the charging slower thing does, but its pattern is more or less the same
wheat elbow
@hard holly Trippleshot allows you to shotgun on close enemies which is huge
hard holly
Bows strength comes fro mthe base weapon being so fun that transformative upgrades arent needed
Im aware
wheat elbow
Doubleshot changes your max distance, which makes an impact on your game
potent agate
if dramatic differences in your bow's shooting, charging, and ranges aren't transformative in your opinion, and also you think that instant-shot bow is meh, i think fundamentally your definitions of things are just incompatible with mine and DeGrand's and no common ground can be found through any quantity of debate
hard holly
The case is less "are there differences" and more "do the differences change playpatterns"
potent agate
yes, correct
hard holly
In case of Bow, they do not except for 2, one of which just removes the most interesting element of bow, the other one being kinda clunky
potent agate
and also the third one and the fourth one
hard holly
Again, as Ive explained, in my experience playing bow, they had no impact on how I played
Other than doing more damage
And occasionally a triple-shot on 3 different enemies
Rarely, really
wheat elbow
When I pick up tripple shot, I make an effort out of hitting multiple enemies with the shot
especially between waves, as the next one spawns.
hard holly
I dont, mainly because just oneshotting them one-by-one is faster
wheat elbow
Also, if I get tripple explosive shots, I will shot gun exclusively for ridiculous damages
potent agate
if you're using a bow as a shotgun all the time then you're just skipping one of the major advantages of the default bow, and also secondarily I don't understand how you're doing that and also going for powershots
hard holly
By dashing then powershotting?
The charge is pretty quick
Enemies generally dont have time to attack
wheat elbow
@hard holly Unless you go crit and/or ignore heated runs existing, one-shotting becomes less and less doable as the game progresses
hard holly
And you get that juicy backstab damage
I mean I go for crit and I play high heat runs
Course, I dont use health or death insurance up
humble scarab
Does someone knows how to do damages with artemis hunter dash?
hard holly
Because I think theyre not fun
But, yknow
You dont, it increases the damage of the next dash attack
Dash, then attack immideatly, and that attack does bonus damage
Most noticable on sword and bow
wheat elbow
@humble scarab It increases the damage of the next regular Attack you use immediatly after dashing
rugged apex
current streak: 13! ha.
hard holly
Has
potent agate
(it's not very unique)
hard holly
Shields is the same as the basic one but without any backswing delay
potent agate
(in any of the cases)
hard holly
Bows has a shorter charge time
wheat elbow
Rail shoots faster for two shots or so
rugged apex
spear's doesn't exist unless you have hunter dash
hard holly
Rail briefly fires faster (but I think only the first shot does bonus damage?)
wheat elbow
As in, first two shots come very close to one another
hard holly
And Spear doesnt have one
Its just a regular attack with regular attack properties
So its bad on spear
wheat elbow
You know, the spear receiving a dash attack may be what the spear needs
Some kind of stinger move
hard holly
Could work
wheat elbow
Doesn't have to deal a lot of damage, 25 to 30 would be enough
hard holly
More importantly, it needs rebalanced values and upgrades
The spear special upgrades need some changes
wheat elbow
Yes and no.
hard holly
Explosive Spear for example should probably do 40-50 base damage
wheat elbow
Only the special upgrade with the crit should leave.
Explosive spear deals 45 damage by default I believe
hard holly
Nope, 25
wheat elbow
25 +80% = 45
wheat elbow
Ah, that's what you mean. Yeah, I can see that.
hard holly
Im thinking like worldsplitter, outright change the base damage value
wheat elbow
On the other hand, it doesn't really need that.
hard holly
It really does though
wheat elbow
Because all the boni are additive, apparently, it doesn't matter if and how and what you stack
hard holly
Im a long-time spear special fan and uh
Boy does it suck
It does, sort of
Additive means that base damage is super-important
wheat elbow
which is, overall, better and more fun than feeling yourself restricted to certain combinations because of how they interact
hard holly
Take the current version
Throw on an Athena special upgrade for 100%
And it only does 70 damage
If it was 45 base damage, it would do 90
And the more you stack, the bigger the gap becomes
wheat elbow
Yes, but consider this:
Because the Athena Update only gives 25 extra damage
it doesn't outshine other options by default
hard holly
Uh, it still does?
wheat elbow
I can pick up Dionysus, Athena or Ares if I feel like it
hard holly
The other ones have mostly worse values
wheat elbow
without feeling like I am getting the short end of the stick by not getting Athena
hard holly
Dionysus and Ares are still vastly inferior
Despite how little damage Athena gives you
wheat elbow
It offers me more variety in repeated play without being penelized.
hard holly
Dionysus already is nice on fast-hitting or multi-hitting attacks
No need to make spear special so pathetically weak just so bad upgrade options compete with the ones that should be good
wheat elbow
You are looking at it from a "What gives me the highest possible damage right now?" while the game designers are (and should be) looking for ways to keep the game interesting and fresh as long as they can.
hard holly
Well, no, I also look it from that
wheat elbow
Which is far more feasable with additive damage than multiplacitive
hard holly
The current state makes it "Ok, so spear special and in particularly explosive launcher should never be used"
So instead, you have spear as a dedicated spin or rapid-fire hit weapon
Its less variety
wheat elbow
I like explosive spear whenever I get it and use it all the time
hard holly
Well, then I guess you have a lot more patience than I do
wheat elbow
Especially with Poseidon, just keeping enemies away from you from a safe distance by spamming special is just super fun
It's less about patience.
I just appreciate variety
hard holly
Because the last time I got it and got what is a pretty damn good build
wheat elbow
and exploring new cool ways to play the game.
hard holly
Finishing the run was slow, tedious, annoying and took me 42 minutes
Or I could take bow and finish in 19 minutes without even going for a speedrun
Its not any more of a new way just because its bad
wheat elbow
Well that is the point.
hard holly
You could have the same playpattern if it did enough damage to not be super-slow
wheat elbow
You just enjoy being in your comfort zone a bit too much
hard holly
Hah, no
I just dont enjoy tedium
I play all the weapons, and I enjoy all of them sometimes, but Spear is pretty much just "Quick Spin or bust"
Because everything else is tedious and slow to a degree I cant stomach
wheat elbow
I mean, don't get me wrong, I do not disagree on the spear being mediocre.
It is also my least favorite weapon and I also consider it to be the weakest
hard holly
There is nothing fun about hitting the same attack on the same enemy 6 times just to strip off their armour
wheat elbow
But out of the three hammer special upgrades, the one we are talking about is not the one that causes the problem.
hard holly
Eh, none of them cause problems
The reaction to the crit one was appropriate when things stacked multiplicatively
If we got old Vicious Skewer under additive levels back, it wouldnt even be good
The problem is that base damage has gotten so much more crucial than before
And that if youre not an attack with a really fast fire rate, your base damage better be real good, or youre just hardly usable
Which Spear Special unfortunately is not, especially with explosive launcher
Shield Special has the same problem, but its had that before the change to additive, so its hardly a difference
wheat elbow
I don't see your problem.
If a weapon doesn't have good base damage, through damage on it that doesn't rely on it.
It's one of the reasons why Zeus is good for Rail attacks
Or why Dionysus gives you a steady performance pretty much no matter what weapon you use.
copper berry
I think that these issues just come down to what the devs have envisioned for the game. Do they want every weapon to have a viable build with every God?
Often you want there to be weak items, so players know that there ARE strong items, and so they can get a sense of reward when they find a good boon, and as they learn what is and isn't good for each weapon.
hard holly
Well, even that is kind of a case of base damage
In this case, Zeus's base damage in comparision to Fire Rate
Though if I were to be more specific, high fire rate or high base damage are needed
And Spear Special and Shield Special have neither
I think every weapon and every upgrade should be good
copper berry
The big brain thought though is using a Daedalus upgrade to supplement it.
hard holly
If people enjoy an upgrade despite it being bad, theyre not gonna be mad when it becomes good
copper berry
In our speedruns now, shield special has become the mainstay.
hard holly
Explosive Shield?
copper berry
And we take Explosive Return, since the base damage is 70.
hard holly
Yeah
copper berry
Ye, once again of course it comes back to base damage.
hard holly
Yup
copper berry
But I think that it is interesting that there are supplements to the weapons that can help with a lack of base DPS.
hard holly
True, but I think its more fun when upgrades either change the playstyle, or make a good playstyle better
Rather than being mandatory for the playstyle to be viable (See: Quick Spin)
copper berry
But I think it also depends on the player and what playstyle they like. Maybe they prefer playing slow and safe, so they would enjoy a shield special + Ares build.
hard holly
Well that goes back to my point
They can still have that, even when the weapon gets a lot better
Theyre not gonna be mad if that build suddenly does more damage or baseline doesnt lock them out of attacks or something
copper berry
Well I think that once again comes back to what the Devs envision, like if they want some builds to not be viable.
Though I agree there may be a bit of an issue with how basically NO builds are viable with those two examples of spear/shield special.
stable oyster
Ok there are a few... other ... reasons we use explosive return
copper berry
Even in glitchless though Ichoren, explosive return is best.
stable oyster
Oh I thought it was still nova
hard holly
I thought Sudden Sunder was
stable oyster
My b
hard holly
Also, Explosive Return has a glitch?
copper berry
It really depends on how good you get at controlling the shield explosion.
hard holly
Do tell
copper berry
Uh oh, cheese it 
wheat elbow
Yeah, you have to make your shield explosive responsibly.
stable oyster
^
hard holly
But yeah, I think having intentionally bad upgrades is not a good thing to have
wheat elbow
I mean
copper berry
Basically on Instant Nova vs Explosive Return, it depends on how quickly you can trigger the explosion.
wheat elbow
I have played The Binding of Isaac.
copper berry
That is exactly the example I had in mind Daddy DeGrand.
wheat elbow
I can stand playing a game without Cursed Eye and Curse of the Tower
copper berry
Also slay the spire.
hard holly
Or perhaps, more accurately
None unless you get so many options you can reasonably be expected to not have to use that one
I wont lie, I love the JK-47 in Gungeon
copper berry
I mean it is basically a base weapon with a larger clip right? And then you have the added bonus of possible synergies.
wheat elbow
Enter The Gungeon gives you the option to not use Items you come across.
hard holly
I mean its better than most base weapons, yes
wheat elbow
In Isaac, the only way to discard something bad you picked up is rerolling your entire run
hard holly
But by the time you get it, you likely have better weapons
copper berry
But you also don't have to take them in Isaac, just don't pick them up.
Unless you are unfortunate enough to deal with Curse of the Blind.
hard holly
There are worse weapons, like the Dueling Pistol or the Klobbe
Which actually are worse than starters
wheat elbow
That is where curse of the unknown comes in.
wheat elbow
Sometimes, you just don't know what the Items are going to be.
hard holly
Aaanyway, yeah, make all builds viable
copper berry
I can see what you mean, bad or weaker builds can still be fun.
wheat elbow
I seek to remember that JK-47 has a synergy with AK
hard holly
Personally with spear special it really is as easy as upgrading the base damage
copper berry
Yep they do.
hard holly
You dual-wield them
Because Spear Special has a fun pattern when its good in all its forms
With Shield Special, Id rework it to have more to it
Maybe make Mirage Flight without the downside baseline
Maybe make Zag able to surf on it
Maybe make him fight unarmed like hes captain america
wheat elbow
I would like them to give the spear special that let's it bounce to the shield
copper berry
See I think that makes sense, when you take that hit to damage due to changing from multiplicative to additive, as well as having 50% less damage on backstab from the mirror, it makes sense that it would end up weak.
hard holly
Yeah, the multiplicative to additive thing was the biggest problem
Especially since Special upgrades have higher % values
So the loss is relatively speaking bigger
stable oyster
Sudden Rush is the current speedrun meta for 200 heat
wheat elbow
Wait, there is a 200 heat speedrun "meta"?
copper berry
It is whatever Ichoren decides it is.
pastel jolt
okay, dashing wallop is officially my favourite shield hammer
stable oyster
Well it’s practically just me
copper berry
Since he is the only one that runs it 
pastel jolt
and i say this as someone who does not like using the shield
stable oyster
Dashing is deff a great option
hard holly
As in the Deja Vu upgrade for Shield?
wheat elbow
It is a strong boon
hard holly
Noice
pastel jolt
admittedly that may be the fact that i've ended up with the chaos boon to dash attacks as well as artemis attack