h1-builds-and-combat

[turbid needle]

for me

if you can just stack them

[pure fox]

is there any difference if u win/lose against thanatos? 🤔

[turbid needle]

i suggested it

win against thant you usually get a free centaur heart

lose has no major downsides

[pure fox]

i see! havent encountered him enough to see the diff thanks!

[turbid needle]

no problem

[woeful stirrup]

Several hammers? That's an awful idea. Way too overpowered. Plus, many hammer upgrades would not be compatible with each other.

[turbid needle]

idk..

[woeful stirrup]

On its own, Cluster Bomb is pretty hard to use. Now imagine if you could get Cluster Bomb AND Triple Bomb.

[turbid needle]

several hammers isnt that broken

[woeful stirrup]

You could solve that by only being able to get one attack and one special, but that's still broken.

[turbid needle]

that would change the way you play tho

making you more of a specialist user

then anything

the cluster bomb is nice

but so slow

[frosty pier]

Stop right there

[turbid needle]

you could get something like dual shot triple shot on bow

that would be sick

[frosty pier]

There is no limit to how cluster is bad

[turbid needle]

idk i feel 1 upgrade isnt that fun

[woeful stirrup]

Also, why do people always upvote their own feedback? We know you like it, it's yours

[turbid needle]

because

why wouldnt you?

[echo heath]

two hammers would pretty op

[woeful stirrup]

"that would be sick"
This is exactly what you would say when something is completely broken.

[turbid needle]

nothing is completely broken in this game

2 hammer upgrades isnt much

not anything else then finding 4 poms

[light aspen]

spear with recal crit plus armour shred

[turbid needle]

or like 6different god boons

[light aspen]

ez game

[turbid needle]

that would be nice

especially when you encounter Thant in Aspho

you atleast have a chance

[woeful stirrup]

There is no downside to losing against Thanatos.

[turbid needle]

but it's frustrating

knowing i can match him in tartarus

[dusky quartz]

So... World Splitter and Flurry Blade at the same time?

[turbid needle]

and just have to play it like an Survival encounter in apsho

[finite blaze]

@woeful stirrup well here was my reasoning (also sorry for late repo i was out). Rather then just giving you a better chance to get something good why just have like a tiny tiny boon that amplifys your gameplan. But now that you mention it, yeah you are correct in your reasoing the mirrors buffs do help alot with my initial problem

[light aspen]

every than encounter is a win cause you get to see him uwu

[turbid needle]

^

but he does 9999 damage

fair

right

[light aspen]

yes

he deserves it

[turbid needle]

im asking for2 upgrades

that's like

[woeful stirrup]

You pretty much always have a chance with Than. If I had not picked only Ares boons, I probably would have won, despite the room being in favour of Than. The delay before the curse is what wrecked me. I've met him 6 times now, 4 of them in Asphodel. This was my first loss.

[turbid needle]

not making things super broken

[light aspen]

2 upgrades isnt the soltion

[turbid needle]

you're not gonna do over 9999 damage anmyway

it's a long run thing

[light aspen]

gettin than is aspho adjusted is a solution

[turbid needle]

that is also fine

right now i feel like most of my runs are just not well enough realised becasue i could have had that other upgrades

that cemented it better

but didnt show up

like instead of 6 and accuracy i could have benefitted more from the infite ammo one

but didnt show up

and i only get 1 hammer

the build path allways feels like.. Close to what you want

but not exactly what you want

or sometimes it curve balls you

wich i like

[light aspen]

thats the magic of rogue likes

sometmes you get a coherent build sometimes you dont

and as the game gets longer

you will be able to get more fleshed out builds

[woeful stirrup]

So just because Than does a ton of damage on hit, just for one specific situation, you believe two upgrades is not broken? Once you've gotten some experience, the game is not really hard, as long as you stay below 50 Heat. Plenty of people now have a 100% win rate with no heat. And you would give them a second hammer upgrade, when they're the most powerful upgrades in the game, far stronger than boons?

[turbid needle]

yeah but i feel like having a bit more say on what your build is gonna look like

wouldnt make it öp

"op"

[woeful stirrup]

It would.

[turbid needle]

anti-fun

[echo heath]

yeah the game isnt really hard at all

[turbid needle]

^

the game is quite easy unless you hamper yourself via pact

[light aspen]

thats why its there

for the option between people who want a challenge

[turbid needle]

i know why it's there

[light aspen]

and those who want to coast

[woeful stirrup]

And you would make it easier with two upgrades.

[turbid needle]

not at all

because the upgrades remain the same

[echo heath]

yeah two hammers would make it a cake walk

[turbid needle]

it's just more RNG

you get like ammo on dash, and carpet bomb

nothing actually changed

[woeful stirrup]

There is a reason you only get one hammer upgrade per run: they're more powerful than any other thing you can get.

[turbid needle]

same with god boons and duo boons or a legendary showing up

that does make your build op

i digress

hammer isnt that powerfull

i did more runs without it

[echo heath]

yeah it is

[turbid needle]

then with it

because one showed up in a shop

[echo heath]

i facetanked hydra purely becuase i got the attack speed for sword

[turbid needle]

and the other showed up in a pain level

wich i didnt have

my last run with the sword i got the 30% wider area buff

that was ok, i had to adjust my build to that tho

[light aspen]

hammer and everythin in the game is either op

or hot trash

[turbid needle]

^

[light aspen]

depending on the synergies you get

[echo heath]

yeah

[turbid needle]

so why wouldnt you want to increase your chances

[light aspen]

which is part and parcel of playin a game like this

[turbid needle]

on a better upgrade

[pastel jolt]

welcome to roguelikes, where any upgrade you personally do not like is absolute garbage

[turbid needle]

if your 1st one was hot garbo

[pastel jolt]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[light aspen]

because its unnecessary

[hasty mauve]

Well

Yes and no

[light aspen]

roguelikes play the way they do

if you get trash for the build u want

[hasty mauve]

[turbid needle]

RNG based

[light aspen]

thats how it be

[woeful stirrup]

Hammer upgrades would synergize too much. World Splitter plus Double Edge? That's two hits at 300% damage and 15% critical chance every time you press the attack button.

[turbid needle]

sometimes you get something that works

[echo heath]

yeah rogue like/lites live runs live and die on rng

[pastel jolt]

if you don't get the upgrades you want in a run, then you just try and make thebest of it that you can

[turbid needle]

other times you get nothing

yeah that too

[hasty mauve]

None of the stuff in Hades is trash though

[turbid needle]

oof

debatable

[light aspen]

no, nothins bad just sometimes u dont get the syndergy to make the most out of it

[hasty mauve]

Every run is easily winnable

[echo heath]

yeah

[turbid needle]

on no heat

yes

i have no issues anymore

playing the game normally

[pastel jolt]

when people call an upgrade or a weapon or a boon trash, it usually just means it doesn't fit with their personal playstyle

[hasty mauve]

I feel like even 60 heat is still easy

[echo heath]

even with heat its not to hard

[turbid needle]

60 heat was easy if you know what to get

[woeful stirrup]

Nothing in the game is trash. The less used effects aren't too weak, it's the other ones that are too strong. Some upgrades make the game a cake walk.

[pastel jolt]

i can't use the shield to save my dang life. is it trash? no, i just can't use it.

[turbid needle]

120 heat tho

that's gonna be a doosyu

[hasty mauve]

Just dash

[turbid needle]

i kinda need triple dash

[hasty mauve]

Cant kill you if you kill them

[pastel jolt]

also, saying a 60 heat run is easy is jsut another case of your experiences are not universal

[turbid needle]

haha Xd

True

that's very true

[hasty mauve]

Well yeah

[woeful stirrup]

Comparing it to other rogue-lites, sparrow.

[turbid needle]

skill lvl of players are very fluctuating

[echo heath]

yeah i got insane luck with my 60 heat run

[light aspen]

my 40 heat run was the easiets i had yet

for no reason that im a luckky baby

[hasty mauve]

It depends on the player

[pastel jolt]

people keep trying to compare it to other games and i'm just over here wondering why you gotta compare everything.

[turbid needle]

40 heat is what i usuallu run

[woeful stirrup]

Doesn't mean it's necessarily easy, but Hades is definitely easier than most other rogue-lites.

[light aspen]

because taking the game as it is would be WRONG

[turbid needle]

@pastel jolt easy awnser

influence

feels like X game

X game did it better

X game was harder

[pastel jolt]

debatable. i could beat binding of isaac in my sleep, hades i lose quite a bit

[turbid needle]

you gotta compare because it draws similarity

[forest marsh]

It's also incomplete and still constantly changing

[hasty mauve]

If were talking roguelikes, Hades is on the easy side, if you play games like Hades. I guess

[turbid needle]

hades has different mechanics then isaac

you can't dash in isaac

[hasty mauve]

Yeah but, isac is too easy

In every way

[turbid needle]

isaac is no joke on hard

[light aspen]

a c t u a l yl

[woeful stirrup]

Because people play other games, sparrow. If you've played a ton of rogue-lites and are a pro Enter the Gungeon player, chances are Hades will pose literally no challenge to you. While you shouldn't make the game harder just for them and forget the less skilled players, it would be unfair to forget that some players have a high skill level.

[light aspen]

when i get bad items in isaac

[turbid needle]

the lost M---

[light aspen]

its

hard

:C

[turbid needle]

the lost pre holy mantle

[echo heath]

yeah thats why i don't consider hades super easy is because they have 2 floors to add

[hasty mauve]

Even Lost is still easy thougj

[turbid needle]

yeah

now

but it wasnt

when i did it ..>

unlocking the lost even was hard

[hasty mauve]

Non bullet hell bullet hell game

[light aspen]

when a million witches wanna treat u right

[turbid needle]

i am gonna go lads

[hasty mauve]

But yeah difficulty depends on many things I guess

[turbid needle]

gonna see cpt. marvel

[light aspen]

enjoyy

[turbid needle]

the femenist puff piece

[hasty mauve]

Shazam

[woeful stirrup]

But to come back to the original topic, making an upgrade that you get only once BECAUSE of how powerful and game-changing it is an upgrade you can get several times would break the whole balance of the game. It might change once there are more areas, like, getting a hammer in Tartarus or Asphodel and getting another in the third/fourth area might not be completely broken, since we don't know how they'll be balanced, but as the game is, you would pretty much one shot every enemy with some upgrade combos. Including the small Hydra heads.

[echo heath]

yeah

[woeful stirrup]

World Splitter plus Double Edge, you press attack once, you get two powerful attacks, one breaks the armor, one kills the enemy. Add an Athena boon to that and I'm pretty sure any new player (assuming they manage to survive until then) would be able to win, no skill required.

[echo heath]

yeah theres all kinds of combos that would break the game

[analog sail]

60 Heat run complete! Now back to 25 heat to farm.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/550317561707888670/556543819873779712/Hades_00007.png

Also is it me or is Athena wrath super powerful?

[pastel jolt]

i like it mostly because i keep getting pulverized by the hydra's wave heads

[analog sail]

Same. Wasn't really happy when it had 4 of them on the third wave

[oblique karma]

thunder rail is actually really fun

[woeful stirrup]

@humble knoll Thanatos is more than doable in Asphodel. Met him there 4 times, won 3 of those encounters, the only one I lost was because I had spear with Ares boons (so lots of delay on my damage) and the terrain was especially favourable to Than (3 islands the size of his AOE attack). Plus, even if you lose, you get your room reward, the only thing you're missing is a centaur heart. If you're certain you're not gonna win, just run around like in those "survive 50 seconds" rooms and you'll get your reward without taking any damage.

[pastel jolt]

and stab than a bit. he gets real mad if you do

it's funny :'D

[humble knoll]

I encountered him in Tartarus twice, and 3 times in Asphodel. Never could win with him there though, while in Tartarus it seemes much easier

Maybe I just had bad runs there but still, but it felt for me like almost impossible

[woeful stirrup]

You gotta:

1. Bait enemies out of his AOE attacks
2. Prioritize small enemies like witches if there are any
3. Steal his kills if you can, otherwise always attack the ones he's not aiming for

[safe trellis]

Things are generally easier if you have armour-piercing upgrades. Knockback can also be good for slamming enemies out of Thanatos' area of effect before he can inflict his sudden-death countdown on them.

[humble knoll]

Yeah, maybe that's another thing too think about while picking boons and upgrades, I sometimes just go with whatever seems goot atm

[errant narwhal]

i got past tisiphone in 60 heat AHHHH

[humble knoll]

gj 😄

[errant narwhal]

but i used up all my death defies bc i wasnt being careful, and i had four..

F

[shadow copper]

Please dont stab than

[pastel jolt]

no do it he gets snarky

it's great

[shadow copper]

i do it by accident all the time

it upsets me

[errant narwhal]

i died to the megagorgon F

the pesky 4 damage i got from the projectiles killed me LOL

[atomic panther]

Best way to beat the megagorgon: Stack vengeances and turn her weak, then facetank the stream of pellets

[turbid needle]

idk just let skullcrusher tank shots

[tiny pollen]

So what's a decent bow build? I used to do some nasty things with the dash-crit combo and the upgraded Q, but I haven't touched it in a long time.

Should I focus in on the special, maybe get Arty's buff on it?

[icy edge]

I found great success with dio+aph and the twin shot thing - you scale loads of blight with each shot, and you can shove athena onto your special if you want to feel safe

[tiny pollen]

Hm. That sounds interesting!

Anything to get me away from my athena/arty pinball shield build

[worn fulcrum]

Anyone have tips for 120 heat combinations?

[plucky oxide]

twin shots is incredibly good on bow. getting artemis' dash on it feels really good.

[icy edge]

Put all your heat in torment, stifling darkness, more hp on enemies and the blue heart thing

Play an ares build and pray that daddy doesnt send brimstones after you

[tiny pollen]

Twin shots over the special? What's the strat, dash, fire, repeat?

[atomic panther]

Pretty much

[worn fulcrum]

The question is basically do I want to take Stifling Darkness and Grim Inevitability, or do I want Tenebrous Veil and more Vicious Torment

[woeful stirrup]

You don't want Tenebrous Veil.

[hard holly]

Oh yeah, how exactly does Twin Shot work?

Ive not been given the opportunity to pick it so far

[pastel jolt]

you fire two shots at the same time but the range is.... i wanna say about halved?

they're not very far apart, either

you're basically guaranteed to hit things with both shots

i love it because it counts as two separate shots instead of just one - full damage, and if one shot strips off an enemy's armor bar then the other shot will nail their health

[hard holly]

Oh

Huh, so its similiar to triple shot

[plucky oxide]

They basically took old triple shot and split it into two abilities

[pastel jolt]

i mean, not really?

triple shot is still triple shot, it just has a wider arc now

twin shot is the replacement for point-blank shot

[plucky oxide]

Yeah, but the main reason people took triple shot was because it was just a superior point-blank shot, right?

[hard holly]

It was a superior anything shot tbh

[plucky oxide]

So they nerfed triple, and replaced point-blank

[forest marsh]

Honestly, Triple Shot is still very good, and still lets you do obscene point-blank damage

[hard holly]

Yup

[forest marsh]

And the spread still manages to hit a surprisingly large number of enemies at distance

[plucky oxide]

Yep! The reason why I prefer twin shot is due to the linear nature of the arrow fire. It keeps that good-good damage, but changes the nature of you you chew through packs of enemies.

[forest marsh]

I like Twin Shot, but the short range feels too limiting for me. I do like to do point blank shots, but I also like being able to snipe at the same time

[pastel jolt]

twin shot is my favourite upgrade for the bow

rapid shot comes a close second

[hard holly]

I like perfect shot the best

Nothing quite like being rewarded for a timing mini-mechanic

[plucky oxide]

I've never actually chosen rapid shot. The day will come, I'm sure, but I havent figured out a good path to build it yet.

[hard holly]

Really scratches the PSO2 itch even more

[plucky oxide]

Perfect shot feels so gooood. Feels very bastion-y in reward structure.

[pastel jolt]

rapid shot is nice with zeus attack or with artemis attack

i suppose ares is somewhat viable if you manage to pick up dire misfortune (curses do extra damage the more you apply them before they go off) but letting the curse go off at all requires you to stop shooting

[hard holly]

Wait, is that how it works?

[plucky oxide]

i feel like there are more rapid attacks out there than bow for Ares and Zeus, but I could be wrong. I'm not sure how fast the pacing of shots fired is. Would fit nice with a dash-attack artemis build though.

[hard holly]

I thought you just add damage while its ticking, and it ticks off at the same rate

That makes dire Misfortune worse than I thought tbh

[plucky oxide]

I can not remember from my build if it works as stated above. I don't believe it did, but I do remember /some/ delay. I could be wrong, though.

[pastel jolt]

i mean, pause, you asked about paths to build rapid shot bow with

of course i'd rather take zeus with something like the spear, but that's not a rapid shot bow now is it? ;P

[hard holly]

The problem I had with rapid shot

Is just that it does less damage than ... not picking it most of the time

[pastel jolt]

it's fun

i pick it because it's fun

also you'd be surprised how fast it actually fires

[hard holly]

I mean, thats fair

For me the fun part of bow is that perfect timing

And the satisfying shing

[plucky oxide]

Aye, that's what my query was. I was wondering if it had any unique-fun to it that i couldnt find elsewhere. I'll check it out. I think artemis might be the most unique-fun on it, as dash attack dancing feels best on bow in my opinion.

[chrome viper]

I loved the Adamant rail when it was released, but with the latest update I feel like it has no hitstun and I barely hit any bullets D: did they change it?

[hard holly]

I dont think it ever had hitstun?

Anyway, you cant rapid tap it for perfect accuracy anymore

So unless you get Flurry fire, yeah, its more inaccurate

[safe trellis]

Just a heads-up for anyone who might not have run into this issue yet: due to a bug, currently Chaos Gates will correctly open after a room is cleared but will then REMAIN open and active if a Trove Trial is activated. Be careful as you may accidentally enter the Gate while the Trial fight is still undergoing. It won't affect the game's performance, but obviously you'll lose the Trove's reward as well as any keys you may have used to activate it.

[chrome viper]

Wait maybe hitstun is not the right word, but I'm pretty sure it made enemies move slower?

Not really a bug, its a known thing you can just bail out of rooms when troves are active

[plucky oxide]

If they're not moving as slow, its probably because the rate of fire was averaged out, I believe. You're not hitting it as much.

[chrome viper]

Damn

I'd rather have the old reload animation than the new innacurate rail

I feel like it beats the purpose of it being a gun if you have to get close to hit all the bullets

[woeful stirrup]

It's still pretty accurate though, even without Flurry Fire. And real fast rate of fire.

https://i.imgur.com/LJ4PsZn.jpg

Started with Poseidon's cast and decided "this is gonna be a cast run". Artemis helped convince me this was the right choice.

Also, bought tons of death defiances because why the hell not?

[shadow copper]

those death defiances stacked like that

make me happy

[atomic panther]

7 Death Defiances and not a single one from an Athena boon

[woeful stirrup]

Bought all of them from wells.

Anybody knows how much a pom will upgrade the damage for Exit Wounds? Had a choice between epic Exit Wounds (100 damage) and rare Fully Loaded (+2 cast) and was wondering, with Quick Reload, if Exit Wounds would have actually been better than just spamming casts (although my 8 casts were enough to get the main head to its next phase and 7 casts were enough to kill a small head).

Oh, and how do you get onions? When I played back before the Good Times update, you had to fail a no hit room, but I haven't seen any of those in over a dozen runs with the new update.

[pastel jolt]

pom upgrade values are the one thing i never actually managed to work out how to find lmao

[forest marsh]

Perfect Clear rooms are locked behind Infernal Gates now

[unkempt pagoda]

@woeful stirrup When I pommed Exit Wounds, it went up from 100 to 120. Also, no hit rooms have been moved to infernal gates

[forest marsh]

So only available on 25+ runs

[woeful stirrup]

Oh, so I need to do heat runs. Wanted to wait until I had enough keys to unlock everything before doing so. Thanks for the info.

Also, 100 to 120? Guess it's not too bad, then, even without Fully Loaded. With 3 base casts, that's 300 damage plus 60 per pom. Epic Fully Loaded adds 3 casts worth of damage plus one more per pom, so it's still better if they give you the choice though. But being able to get both, that'd be quite a lot of damage.

[unkempt pagoda]

True, but when I tried Exit Wounds, I never actually got another Artemis boon so it just kinda sat useless until boss fights :V

i probably won't take it again unless i have quick reload first

[woeful stirrup]

If you've got a nice cast, Fully Loaded, Quick Reload AND Exit Wounds, imagine the ton of damage you'd get 👀

Forget the Hydra, you'd kill all the Olympians even if they ganged up on you

Also, I imagine that in two months, with one new area, it will be easier to get good combos, legendaries and duo boons.

[cursive citrus]

https://i.imgur.com/Z5J4Owu.png

finally

i did not expect sword to give me the most trouble

[wide maple]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/224750856371699712/556645420277694476/20190316_200959.jpg

i tried to kill myself but lava won't do damage

@cursive citrus also holy hera

That's a lot of commitment

[cursive citrus]

lmao i'd f10 report that lava bug if i were you

that aint right

[wide maple]

I'm not online

[cursive citrus]

ah

[wide maple]

but yeah it's broke

[atomic panther]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/473685187780411405/556648269908934656/unknown.png
Got my best down to 14 minutes! Another problem solved by World Splitter

[turbid needle]

spear did me 16mins

pretty fast

[plush blaze]

[cursive citrus]

i've not even tried for time at all

spear is my fastest at 17 tho

shield slowest at 22

[atomic panther]

I wasn't trying for time, I just saw World Splitter, blacked out for 15 minutes, and woke up to a victory screen

[regal nexus]

Just cleared 160 heat on a stream for my first time ever! The jump from 145 wasn't as bad as I'd expected

https://i.imgur.com/gag2vWp.jpg

[plush blaze]

👏 ! Congrats Rynth

[regal nexus]

Thanks a bunch!

[atomic panther]

0
0
0
50
5

[turbid needle]

BO!

Bow!

[atomic panther]

You, friend, have your priorities in order

[turbid needle]

3 hp left

jesus

[regal nexus]

3 death defies left too though

[turbid needle]

yeah sick skills

[regal nexus]

But yes, very diverse weapon set

100% shield main

[turbid needle]

what ehh

carried you?

[regal nexus]

Mostly just getting deflect attack and athena wrath with veil

[turbid needle]

im still farming heat\

to do 120

[regal nexus]

Deflect attack is near necessary on 120+ heat bow, and athena wrath is huge

[turbid needle]

so your pact is maxed out then?

or what didnt you max in pact

[regal nexus]

It's all but whipped, since whipped is glitched atm

[turbid needle]

whipped is sick

like

you cant even see the furies charge

lol

[regal nexus]

Yeah lol, should not be affecting attack speeds

[turbid needle]

yeah i was thinking of doing all except whipped

also bow spear and rail

seem safe bets

i wouldnt wanna do 120 with a sword

[regal nexus]

Sword is legitimately solid now too from what I've seen

It got heavily buffed

[turbid needle]

yeah

but not buffed enough that you can stomp 120+ heat

btw how much did tenebrous veil hamper you?

[regal nexus]

Veil is awful, I decided to stop seeding runs since it'd seem unfair so it took something like 3 hours of runs over a couple streams

Normally 145 heat would take an hour or less of runs, so it's a significant penalty

[turbid needle]

so you got a ridiculous amount in damage heat then?

[regal nexus]

All but whipped are maxed

[turbid needle]

nice

i can't wait to try 120

[regal nexus]

120 is a lot of fun, it's around the point where you'll start needing some rng to go your way though

If you don't get the deflect attack it is much harder

[turbid needle]

true

ill lvl up athenas boon

when im farming heat

[regal nexus]

👏

[turbid needle]

so what trinket do you rockl in asphoderl

[regal nexus]

Either skull earring or cerberus

[turbid needle]

not butterfly?

more damage

[regal nexus]

earring if 130+ health going in or lost any death defies, cerberus otherwise

[turbid needle]

cant get hit anyway

[regal nexus]

earring is like 20 rooms of butterfly

and lets you take athena first floor

[turbid needle]

earing is kind of a trap tho

[regal nexus]

Earring gives 40% and at high heat you stay low after the first hit, all death defies rev you at earring range

[turbid needle]

but that doesnt work in aspho right the god boon trinkets

ah right

gotcha

cool

earing is maxxed out

was doing some butterfly runs

and oprheus his trinket

since that damage bonus on range is quite good

[regal nexus]

Butterfly will be a legitimately great first floor option if they make it keep the damage after unequipping

[turbid needle]

thanks for the insights

[regal nexus]

No problem, good luck 👍

[plucky oxide]

Does anyone remember Ares' original dash? I wasn't playing during that time. Was it just really really good?

[forest marsh]

You mean the Surge?

[plucky oxide]

Yeah

[forest marsh]

I wasn't a big fan of the surges, honestly

[plucky oxide]

Did it remove I-frames?

[forest marsh]

Though the Poseidon and Ares Wrath abilities aren't too far from their old Surge dashes

[plucky oxide]

Oh, Poseidon had one as well?

[forest marsh]

Yeah

[plucky oxide]

That's cool. Glad to see them reusing that idea.

Looking up the original blade surge now, it looks really neat, in concept.

[pearl willow]

man i love me some athena wrath and 'mirage flight' for the shield is great, this may be the first time im using the shield throw ever

[plucky oxide]

I'd say I'm more of a fan of that look than Ares' current wrath look.

[forest marsh]

Mirage Flight is great, yeah

[plucky oxide]

Anyone favor Aphro's wrath over others?

I find her options pretty weak in comparison, but I fear I'm just under utilizing

[forest marsh]

Favour it? No. But it is useful vs bosses

[plucky oxide]

Oh, it charms bosses?

[forest marsh]

Yeah

[plucky oxide]

Aphrodite doesn't get a lot of use by me. Maybe I should give her more of a chance.

I feel like it lacks synergy with the rest of her kit, currently.

[forest marsh]

I've found that if you stop pushing for a specific build and just go with what comes up, you end up appreciating more of the options

She's definitely not the strongest, but can still be fun and is perfectly viable

And some of the synergies with Weak are good too

[plucky oxide]

Yeah, definitely. I take her dash a lot.

[pearl willow]

is anyone succeeding against thanatos now? im like 0-3 after patch and it hasn't even been close lol, though i generally don't build super offensively

[forest marsh]

Haven't had a chance to play since Than was patched

[plucky oxide]

Play Poseidon, and use knockback to push enemies out of the giant-death-aoe.

Than has an attack range. If you run to the other side of the map between fights, or split the pack, you can quickly gain the advantage.

[pearl willow]

yeah i just noticed on the last attempt that you can put him 'out of range' at least initially

[night pasture]

whoops, I accidentally sent a bug without a description somehow

apologies about that various supergiants

[plucky oxide]

So... Low Tolerance appears to be a duo boon, according to the wiki (Aphro/Dio). Any idea of what this is?

[forest marsh]

Yup

You get a higher stack cap of Blight Wine on enemies that are Weak

[plucky oxide]

Neat. There's a lot of damage mitigation between the two of them. I'll have to push for it at some time.

[woeful stirrup]

I'd like to see duo boons but the game is a butt to me
Same with legendaries, I've only ever had one despite fulfilling the prerequisites in over half my runs.

[atomic panther]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/473685187780411405/556677518103674910/unknown.png
This is probably the highest synergy run I've done, ever

The cast was dealing 309 to the hydra heads

[atomic panther]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/473685187780411405/556683675077443584/unknown.png
Well this is embarrassing

Hydra was at less than 100 health when I died... I'm so hecking mad right now

[placid pike]

Is it just me or does it feel like the skulls move faster than they should as if you have whipped frenzy on even though you don't?

[atomic panther]

Elite Skulls have increased speed

[placid pike]

Ah, so that's it.

...Now I really don't want to see how fast they are with whipped frenzy becauase they already feel like they're chomping on my heels.

[forest marsh]

They are crazy on max WF

[midnight cliff]

Alecto really isn't easy lol compared to the other 2

[hazy oyster]

guys looking for advice. I have a nice run so far, I am in asphodel, but this room does not seem to end

i dont wanna give up, and no enemies appear

any suggestions?

[peak smelt]

has anyone a build for the railgun ?

chainrail*

[cerulean orchid]

When people did their super high heat runs, how did they start out? Did they like slowly build up to it, gradually increasing the heat with each run, or just set everything to max and grind until they got it?

[vale shuttle]

With the new update does Meg still show up? I only ever get Alecto or Tisiphone.

[lost rose]

she does, yeah!

[vale shuttle]

Does heat affect it at all? I'm going to try some more runs without, but in my last 20 runs I haven't seen her (although a few of those I didn't make it to the boss room, gotta love that 120 heat grind)

[lost rose]

don't think so?

[tame mortar]

Is it just me or meeting Megara or Thanos in the house is impossible?

[pastel jolt]

thanatos

and no, it's not impossible! they're there after a run in which you killed meg or encountered thanatos..... but not always, and sometimes they'll be talking to other people

[tame mortar]

damn, maybe unlucky then. Didn't see meg in since the patch

[signal saddle]

I have a question. What does the perfect landing do exactly?

[pastel jolt]

nothing, it just looks cool

[signal saddle]

I thought it was something that ups the rarity of the 1st boon

thanks @pastel jolt

[plush blaze]

It doesn't up the rarity, but it does affect RNG

[pastel jolt]

not in any noticeable way unless you're a speedrunner though tbh

[vale shuttle]

Has the message for beating the second boss always been "Is there no escape?"

[pastel jolt]

only since the mdk update

[vale shuttle]

That's what I thought

[hard holly]

I believe there are a couple messages

Anyway, Thanatos always shows up in the house when you beat him

He is in the very bottom part of the left side, so easy to overlook

Actually, I think even if you just encounter him, he shows up

Meg only shows up occasionally when you beat her, and you dont even always get to face her

[pastel jolt]

no, he doesn't always show up

[hard holly]

Really?

[pastel jolt]

the last run i did before i took a break just now had him show up and he was nowhere to be seen when i got back

[hard holly]

Mustve gotten really lucky then, I saw him 8 times and he was in the house each time

[night pasture]

oh man, I got zero room epic athena boon on shield attack

and then got the artemis duo boon which is critical damage for a period after deflect

and now I'm just bull rushing around which tends to natively deflect something and aboslutely wrecking rooms

oh boy a thanatos room!

blessed run

[shadow copper]

owo

ur run has been blessed may the hydra go easy on you

i hope we get an item u can buy like the thing that guarantees a treasure trove but it guarantees thanatos lol

[unkempt pagoda]

but what would bait thanny tho

[shadow copper]

something emo

a my chemical romance album

[unkempt pagoda]

elmo zag

emo*

[grand patrol]

hot topic gift certificate

[woeful stirrup]

I really like the new Tartarus mini-boss room. The enemies kill themselves a lot, so it's way easier than the regular one

[pastel jolt]

yeah, they don't seem bright enough to be able to avoid the switches :'D

[woeful stirrup]

There are a few switches that will murder you rather than them, but they don't hit them often.

[night pasture]

someone asked about the dio/zeus boon not appearing to do anything, and I wanted to just confirm that it doesn't add any new visual effect, but whenever the stun ticks, the enemies will now take damage

[plucky oxide]

@brisk breach the hammer upgrade that increases rate of fire and gives six ammo also makes it incredibly accurate.

[brisk breach]

Yeah, Flurry fire right?

I kinda want the opposite effect of a more slower and more powerful shot.

Rather than a smg sort of gun

[plucky oxide]

I'd play Artemis dash + crit with the +2 ammo on dash hammer, to get what you're describing. But yeah, what you're asking for has yet to exist.

[brisk breach]

I just really liked the idea of Daedalus turning the adamant rail into different guns. So with the shotgun, smg and lmg upgrades; we dont have a battle rifle one yet

Piercing fire just seems like the perfect candidate to modify without having to add additional upgrades

[hasty mauve]

The gun turns into a bazooka

That shoots onions

[grand patrol]

gunions

[hasty mauve]

[south comet]

shoot this gunions

[trim ingot]

oh my god daedalus is just fix-it felix

[sick gorge]

So when Hades starts spout his lines at Zagreus before the start of a run and it shows you a big bolded word like Fool does that do something?

[woeful stirrup]

Nah, it's just Zag having a flashback to the lessons his father taught him.

[sick gorge]

hmm ty

[night pasture]

whoof, died to alecto for the first time

I had blade rift dash and cast and keeping track of her blade rifts and the traps done put me in a pickle it did

too many whirling sprites of death

[woeful stirrup]

@atomic panther I don't understand your feedback. If the Artemis boon says it gives you +55% damage, it always gives you +55% damage.

[atomic panther]

No it doesn't.

Hold on, let me get a screenshot

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/473685187780411405/556938619026407424/unknown.png?width=887&height=499
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/473685187780411405/556938146416164886/Hades_00178.png
This is with +65% damage on sword special. These were taken in the same room, with the same conditions.

+65%, on a 50 base damage, should be around 83 damage

[woeful stirrup]

Weird, with this on adamant rail, I deal the same damage everytim (critical hits excluded)

[atomic panther]

I'm going to F10 this, then

[woeful stirrup]

https://i.imgur.com/dssYmVI.jpg

Only blade left at 25 Heat... now if Dark Thirst could come to it, the reason I don't have many blade wins is because it's nearly never got Dark Thirst

https://i.imgur.com/BLOQK3e.jpg

[atomic panther]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/473685187780411405/556951211715330108/Hades_00194.png
The Artemis boon doesn't work with bow either...

[woeful stirrup]

Those are my current Pact settings. Guess next step will be increasing enemy health fully and maybe the same with their damage. Tenebrous Veil might be fun too. Get a completely random first boon and build everything on that (maybe even trying to not get any other boon)

[pearl willow]

anyone else found that the wretched broker rarely sells ambrosia? small sample size of course, curious if it's just luck or by design

[woeful stirrup]

Nah, he sells it pretty often. Which pains me because it's not what I'm looking for, I need keys way more than I need ambrosia

[night pasture]

Same here, 'fraid you're just unlucky

the only two characters I haven't maxed ambrosia with are thanatoast and sisyphus, the former because he seems to show up fairly rarely, and the latter because he's basically just a gold room at this point and usually the other door options are better

and since you can only gift one per run at most, I have like 6 ambrosia bottles stacked up, even though I use the broker as a dump for 'em

makes me a bit grumpy whenever there's only one exit in tartarus and it's ambrosia

[woeful stirrup]

Gotta use the randomizer on this one.

[pastel jolt]

I have like 6 ambrosia bottles stacked up oh you sweet summer child

[woeful stirrup]

Also, Sisyphus was the second one I maxed (Dusa being the first), because he's such a sweetheart.

[pastel jolt]

having said that there's almost certainly people out there with more than me

(apologies for the dark screenshot, it's from a hydra kill screen)

[night pasture]

hah, that's even a huge stockpile of keys

there's still a couple of pact sections I haven't even been able to unlock yet

[woeful stirrup]

Good thing we now have both a way of getting rid of stuff we don't want and a way of not getting the stuff we don't want.

[pastel jolt]

in fairness i don't actually reroll keys or ambrosia or darkness

or heat

[woeful stirrup]

Although I guess once you have enough Heat, darkness, keys and ambrosia for everything, the randomizer is not that useful.

[pastel jolt]

randomizer? you mean the fated authority rerolls?

[woeful stirrup]

Since it's got a huge chance of rerolling them into one of the other ones you don't want.

[pastel jolt]

because those are definitely useful

[woeful stirrup]

Sure, they're useful, but when you have unlocked literally everything, and maxed everything, rerolling a key into ambrosia isn't really good

[pastel jolt]

okay but that just means you're rerolling the wrong stuff

you can reroll centaur hearts and obols into poms, boons, and hammers

[woeful stirrup]

Obols can get rerolled into those things?

[wintry moon]

oh do they have a specific cycle?

[pastel jolt]

there's not a specific cycle, but

lemme see if i have a screenshot...

[woeful stirrup]

I have not put a single point in that yet since I had not maxed everything else in the mirror, so I don't know the specific, apart from the fact tons of stuff can't be rerolled into boons.

[night pasture]

I'm fairly certain it just randomizes it again to something different than it already was

er, except for boons

[wintry moon]

I feel that way too

[pastel jolt]

bah, all my screenshots are in dialogue so they have a darkened background

[night pasture]

we should petition supergiant to remove all the dialogue in the game so that doesn't happen, I mean, who plays the supergiant games for the characters and story, am I right?

(that was a bad joke)

[pastel jolt]

alright, there we go

the laurels on the edge of the bubble indicate which reroll "group" it belongs to

[wintry moon]

the colour of the laurels

ah I see

[pastel jolt]

darkness, ambrosia, keys and heat all have blue laurels, and they will only ever, so far as i know, reroll into each other

[wintry moon]

makes sense

[pastel jolt]

hearts, obols, boons, poms, and hammers all have gold laurels, and you get the idea

[night pasture]

I think of those as "persistent resources"

and those as "run resources"

[pastel jolt]

that's another good way to put it

[night pasture]

and boons as "boons"

[wintry moon]

it's currency vs perks

[pastel jolt]

shops are a little finicky - what colour they are and whether you can reroll them depends on which chamber they are

[night pasture]

huh, I don't think I've ever tried rerolling a shop, I hadn't thought about that

[woeful stirrup]

I thought Obol would be in the same category as darkness and stuff. Nice to know I'll be able to reroll 75 Obol into something that's worth 100 Obol (at least, and without counting the Pact)

[night pasture]

surely you can't reroll something TO a shop, right? that wouldn't make sense

[pastel jolt]

you're given a shop halfway through a biome and at the end of one, before the boss - you can reroll one but not the other but i can't remember which off the top of my head, sorry

or at the very least the game says you can. never tried

i tend to save my rerolls for hearts because i like to live dangerously

[night pasture]

well at least I have something new and exotic to test in order to screw up my next run

[woeful stirrup]

In both cases you can be given a choice between a shop and another room though. Not being able to reroll the shop doesn't make much sense as it's not always a room you HAVE to go through.

[wintry moon]

you think you can reroll shops into one of those break rooms?

[woeful stirrup]

In which pool is Sisyphus?

[pastel jolt]

gold, iirc

yeah, gold

i've never gotten a room to reroll into him but that doesn't mean it's not possible

[errant narwhal]

i still cant believe i didnt notice the laurels

[pastel jolt]

it wasn't always like this

proof

[errant narwhal]

oh ok i feel less stupid now

thats. good to know

[pastel jolt]

aha

it came with the good times update

+ Visual distinction between 'resource' and 'upgrade' Reward previews

that visual distinction being the laurel colours

[atomic panther]

Bad news, @woeful stirrup
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/473685187780411405/556959873120862230/Hades_00196.png
It's broken on every weapon

[pastel jolt]

see, i took a peek at it earlier and i can't see anything that differentiates how artemis's special boon does its thing compared to her other boons

[hasty mauve]

What is

😄

[wintry moon]

that's some blast, good image

[atomic panther]

Artemis's special boon makes your damage vary. The boon I have says it gives +51% damage, with 20% crit chance, but it deals anywhere from 60 to 90.

[pastel jolt]

🤔

[atomic panther]

This ranges anywhere from disappointing to frustrating, as even without crit chance it makes it impossible to strategize. I use mainly sword, and having a boon say +50% damage but leaving a brimstone alive with 3 health when it should deal 15 more than their max health is absolutely awful.

Should I keep reporting this in game? I've found it on three weapons so far (sword, rail, and bow)

[woeful stirrup]

Is it only for special or does it also do that for attack?

[atomic panther]

Only special

[pastel jolt]

that's what has me confused

[night pasture]

On the plus side I just discovered that Thangatas still gives you the centaur heart if you tie

er I think I messed up some vowels there

[pastel jolt]

he's a nice boy like that

[woeful stirrup]

Thangatas best boy.

Not like that meanie pants Thanatos.

[night pasture]

hah!

[pastel jolt]

🤔 i may have figured it out but i need to test my thoughts

[night pasture]

if I had to speculate, AOEs aren't supposed to do backstab damage, but I'm wondering if the artemis modifier messes with that

just thinking about what modifies attack damage

[atomic panther]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/473685187780411405/556963310734671918/Hades_00199.png
A better shot of what's going on with the special

[night pasture]

nice

[atomic panther]

Also, this was messing with the bow special, which does gain backstab damage normally, and was from the front on all three hits

[pastel jolt]

does it happen with spear as well?

[atomic panther]

I haven't checked yet, I'll get to that next

Although getting a good screenshot of spear and shield's specials is going to be difficult

[pastel jolt]

i think there's a couple lines missing when i compare artemis's attack + special boons with those of poseidon

which might be what's causing it

artemis's attack boon on the left, special on the right

compare to the same snippet of the same boons, but from poseidon

i need to check the other gods and see which one they're like

if artemis is the only one missing that part then that might be what's messing with her damage values

at a rough guess.

[night pasture]

interesting

[pastel jolt]

i should point out i am not even remotely good at code, i'm just poking at things

athena's section looks like poseidon's too

i have like four diffchecker windows open at this point lmao

and of course the moment i go ingame to check, artemis decides not to offer me her special right away,,

[night pasture]

if I had to venture another speculation, which I entirely don't, but will whether you want me to or not, because the "derived from" value isn't explicitly set to a single value I would guess it's pulling from some sort of range

wait, is the amount a critical does a set amount, or is it a range?

I seem to recall its description being "at least 3x damage"

I wonder if that's being applied to the value being used for the calculation before the bonus is being calculated

which means in turn the bonus is a range

[pastel jolt]

i am about to check if what i did to fix works

[woeful stirrup]

Well, no matter the exact cause, at least it's something that should be easy to fix for the devs.

[pastel jolt]

fingers crossed

[woeful stirrup]

So now that they know about it, it's just a matter of waiting for the next patch

[pastel jolt]

fixed it

i think

[night pasture]

was it those two extra lines?

[pastel jolt]

or perhaps not, as my spear doesn't appear to be critting any more, unless i'm getting very unlucky....

no, wait, i know how i broke it

[woeful stirrup]

Should one of the mods be messing with SGG's property?

[pastel jolt]

no, yeah, the thing i thought would fix it has in fact just.... broken the crit thing entirely. 🤔 that's about as far as i'm willing to poke with it

In Summary: Thing Broke, Bug Reported, Wait And See

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[night pasture]

it's gotta be something with how the crit damage range is calculated

[atomic panther]

But crit damage shouldn't vary either

[night pasture]

I'm sure they'll figure it out, they're pretty smart

[pastel jolt]

but that doesn't explain why it doesn't happen on artemis's attack boon, only on her special

[night pasture]

/shrug

whoops this isn't slack

I really like fighting Al the most of all the furies, but I think that may just because I've fought her the least

Meg's fight now seems to drag, and once you learn Tis' tells she doesn't really change over the course of the fight

feels like Al is the only one where I really need to pay attention, although maybe that will pass with experience

[pastel jolt]

in terms of hardest to easiest i feel like personally it's tisi - alecto - meg

but that's primarily because i can never react to tisi's tells in time to avoid the stun-dash thing she does

alecto has more room to keep distance and her attacks are mostly easier to dodge

[night pasture]

yeah, but I'm incredibly inobservant and her arena is absolutely littered with traps

currently I can either focus on dodging the her attacks on not perforating my insoles but not both

that's mostly a personal failing, to be sure

[pastel jolt]

question: how much damage does the sword special usually do

[atomic panther]

50 at base

[pastel jolt]

:)

i have an artemis boon for +25% to special, on sword, and it's consistently doing 62 damage (which is what it SHOULD be doing) and it's critting

[atomic panther]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/473685187780411405/556971895434510376/Hades_00202.png
I have +51% on special from Artemis and -80% from cluster bomb. Any way you do the numbers, it shouldn't be this high. I got higher, up to around 68 (maybe more, I was in the heat of battle so I wasn't keeping close attention)

[pastel jolt]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

idk about that part

[turbid needle]

ayy for once i didnt get downvoted into oblivion

[atomic panther]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/473685187780411405/556974646289891355/unknown.png
A break from all the frustration and confusion with Artemis Special: that's a lot of darkness (look ma, no heat!)

[worn fulcrum]

I have fought Tisiphone 1 (one) time, on 120 heat, and did fine. I think shield is really good against her??

oh, nice

[atomic panther]

Shield is great, since all her attacks (except the ground circles, which she rarely uses) come from one direction

[night pasture]

shield makes Tis a joke, all of her attacks are straight on, really

what he said

[worn fulcrum]

I think my Max Darkness Drop was 308

[plucky oxide]

To your feedback, Than: There used to be a prevalence for always choosing armor chewing hammer upgrades in the game (back when Artemis was insanely good). That was when damage could roll over to health from armor. I personally don't have a problem with the number of armored enemies, except for in the dps race that is Asphodel+Than. However, it could probably do with some tuning down.

Bow against Murrrrrder feels really awkward. Those projectiles are so tiny, I find my attack projectiles innefective on actually hitting those tiny projectile boxes half the time. I'm not used to having to dodge projectiles with bow.

[pastel jolt]

they did lower the size of the hitbox on the arrows where countering projectiles is concerned

[wintry moon]

just hug little Ms. murderr

[night pasture]

the bow used to have much fatter hitbox for clearing projectiles

[wintry moon]

with the bow

[plucky oxide]

Oh wow, good to know.

[night pasture]

I honestly think they hammered it a bit too hard

[plucky oxide]

It's only been a problem for me with Ms. Murrrder so far.

[night pasture]

I was fighting meg, who sends her projectiles directly at you from her, and was hitting her but not deleting her projectiles

[woeful stirrup]

Haven't had a problem with Tisi on my last bow run. Although I did have Rapid Shot, so I could just shoot shoot shoot.

[pastel jolt]

on the other hand something like spear special does just delete tisi's 360-degree projectile attack

[plucky oxide]

I've actually been preferring spear special over attack as of late. It's pretty consistent.

[woeful stirrup]

Spear special is great.

[night pasture]

spear special is still great, even after the nerf

[pastel jolt]

i super enjoy spear special ever since they buffed it

[wintry moon]

spear is bigger than arrow so it makes some sense at least

[pastel jolt]

even with the more-recent nerfs

[plucky oxide]

Does artemis' dash attack not proc charged-attack if you execute it with a dash?

[night pasture]

well, the nerf to vicious skewer

[pastel jolt]

well yeah vicious skewer needed nerfing

[night pasture]

agreed

and it does not

[pastel jolt]

points to the 5-minute clear

[plucky oxide]

Sad. Dash attacking on spear auto feels really inconsistent to me.

[wintry moon]

dash attacking seems so out of place to me

[pastel jolt]

i'll be honest with you there, i have no idea what spear's dash attack even is

[wintry moon]

it's probably the same lunge as the sword's

[woeful stirrup]

My Dionysus spear special build worked very well last time I did it. Throw it, wait for the poison to take away the second Death Insurance, then take it back. You'll get rid of all small enemies in Tartarus in one attack this way.

[plucky oxide]

It's got a tiny frame window for activation, and looks to be a normal spear attack?

At least sword lunge has a unique property

[night pasture]

just got first 60 heat clear, which in retrospect makes all my advice in this channel probably horrible and you should never listen to me

in conclusion Hades is a game of many facets

[woeful stirrup]

https://i.imgur.com/9kSSi3A.jpg

Game, if you could actually give me things, that would make winning a whole lot easier

[coarse hare]

How do people deal with the higher level witches while using sword (the ones that shoot a ton of projectiles)? I ran into a few just chilling on the lava in Asphodel, and even with my upgraded range special I couldn't reach them. Cast is too limited (I didn't have any boons on it). Took me a lot of time and damage to finally get them.

[woeful stirrup]

You gotta go away to bait them out of the lava.

[unkempt pagoda]

I just try to move far away enough that they come to you

[coarse hare]

Ah, I see. Thanks

[woeful stirrup]

@safe tapir With maxed mirror, you nearly always get rare and epic boons. Plus, all gods are good with every weapon. If anything, I'd say there's not much of a reason to pick a god's boon, except maybe in the second area when you're looking for a specific boon that would complement your build well.

[safe tapir]

i posted feedback based on my experience with the game, i didnt ask for tips for playing it

[atomic panther]

Are you supposed to be able to find Hunting Blades without an artemis boon?

[safe tapir]

i appreciate what you're trying to do

but i got it

[woeful stirrup]

And I'm trying to discuss your feedback. Isn't discussing things what a Discord server is about? I'm not giving you tips, I'm talking about my own experience and why I disagree with your feedback.

[regal nexus]

The boon keepsakes are extremely impactful on tartarus, but some others do still have their uses. For example the coin purse you mentioned, and skull earring for speedruns where you want to intentionally damage yourself under 40% health

Though agreed that it'd be great to see even more variation, like having the thanatos butterfly effect keep its damage bonus even after being swapped off so that selecting it for just tartarus would be a viable option

[tranquil ice]

Wait, the butterfly's effects stop when you unequip it?

[atomic panther]

Yes

[tranquil ice]

Goddamn and here I was thinking I was being smart by just playing it safe in Tartarus with that

[woeful stirrup]

That's only useful if you want to have a specific god during your run, though. When I start a run, I want to have to make a build with what the game gives me, I don't want to just get Artemis cast and remove a lot of the randomness inherent to the rogue-lite genre. To someone like me, God keepsakes are literally useless. Sure, it's your right to play the way you play, but just because you want to play in a way that makes God keepsakes essential, it doesn't mean the other keepsakes are bad and in need of a change.

[regal nexus]

If deflect weren't so dang necessary at high heat after the enemy changes I'd agree, but not having deflect on attack or special by the second biome is a huge handicap now

[woeful stirrup]

You play in a way that means your feedback is "non-god keepsakes are bad, change them", I play in a way that would make my feedback "god keepsakes are bad, change them". Doesn't mean any of us has the better way here.

[regal nexus]

At very least on ranged weapons, less of a deal if you play a melee one

[woeful stirrup]

People who play at high heat are a minority.

[regal nexus]

Fair

[woeful stirrup]

Changing things that apply to everyone to please a minority would be bad. The way to fix that is not to change keepsakes, but to change the way the Pact works or change the way the boons work against the Pact modifiers.

[plucky oxide]

Giving players options, and letting them decide what they need/want to use is good. If a player decides God keepsakes are the only way to go, so be it. The problem arises if a large majority cannot see a use for a keepsake... Like Nyx's original keepsake. I feel like certain keepsakes could use with some quality of life improvements, sure... I'm just happy each keepsake isn't locked in as being some build-defining keepsake. I hear a lot of people sing praise about dusa's keepsake. I might never use it, but in glad it's there for people that do.

[forest marsh]

It's definitely important for them all to feel useful, whether or not you choose to use them

[woeful stirrup]

Which is why as things are right now, I don't see a need to change the current keepsakes. God ones might feel useless to me, but seeing all the people thinking of them as vastly superior to the other ones, not everybody shares this opinion. Just like not everybody shares theirs.

[plucky oxide]

Aye, it's important for keepsakes to appeal to a wide variety of player-types. If there's a keepsake no ones using, that's a problem. If there's keepsakes you never use... well... don't use it!

[regal nexus]

Nyx I can see working on medium heat, if someone has healing still enabled but has enough heat that the darkness gain is improved significantly

[plucky oxide]

Originally, Nyx's keepsake allowed the player to move through enemies.

[woeful stirrup]

Also works great on no heat with Ocean's Bounty or a Chaos boost to darkness.

[regal nexus]

Ah, that's what you mean

[plucky oxide]

Yeah, wasn't trying to bash the new keepsake. Oceans Bounty works wonders with it.

[woeful stirrup]

Could also work well on high heat if the no healing one is one you don't take.

Might actually be a great idea if there is one you don't care to choose: that could be some huge healing every darkness room and a valuable thing to buy in a shop or get from Sisyphus.

[regal nexus]

I suppose, you'd get about as many hits back as cerberus collar above a death defy hit threshhold

or more if you happen to get the chaos/poseidon buff

[woeful stirrup]

With 25 Heat and 40% less healing, there were lots of runs where I got 10 HP per darkness room. Was pretty nice (I was in the process of leveling up that keepsake)

[regal nexus]

👍

Might work especially well in a 130 run, you still wouldn't need veil or whipped but could have 0 heal reduction and +260% darkness gain from the pact

[woeful stirrup]

Add Dark thirst to that, and you'd get tons of heals even without any boon for it.

[forest marsh]

That's a pretty cool idea, honestly

[woeful stirrup]

And add both Ocean's Bounty and a Chaos boon and you get full heal every darkness room

[regal nexus]

Well now I just have to try for it

sounds like a lot of fun

[woeful stirrup]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/473685187780411405/556974646289891355/unknown.png
High Priest of World Splitter got this on no Heat.

[regal nexus]

Oh nice

[woeful stirrup]

Imagine that with the 260% bonus from Heat.

[regal nexus]

On a 160 run I had this as a normal darkness https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/453609837016645643/555221632164036623/unknown.png

Boss was something over 200

[woeful stirrup]

That's a heal of 40. When your max health is 55.

Pretty good.

@nova ice What they say is pretty often related to the way they died. One saying people asked if the horse was okay when he died in a stampede, one having a one in three chance when died from poisonous mushroom, etc.

Also remember one saying something about his pal not holding the ladder correctly when he died from a fall.

[opal lintel]

does anyone know for Athena's DD boons whether the increased invuln or increased heal applies to ALL DDs or only the one extra?

[woeful stirrup]

All of them.

[regal nexus]

I believe it applies to all

[opal lintel]

ok that intuitively makes the most sense but doesn't really say so in wording

[regal nexus]

Yeah, the phrasing is just strange

[woeful stirrup]

Also, from the previous discussion, we can conclude than Nyx keepsake OP pls nerf.

[opal lintel]

where should I go to suggest they reword those boons to be like Dionisys's Vintage?

[regal nexus]

#hades-feedback

[opal lintel]

"DDs do X and gain one right now"

👍

[regal nexus]

Guess I'll stream the nyx keepsake run attempts so I'll pop out for now, thanks for the discussion since this build does sound very fun

[woeful stirrup]

Well, I'm gonna go to bed 'cause over 3am, but if you get some huge heal, don't hesitate to @ me, I'd love to see a screenshot of it

[regal nexus]

Heh, will do

[nova ice]

@woeful stirrup - Oooh. Maybe I wasn't reading it clearly enough then.

[keen badger]

@plucky oxide - The point you made about the ability menu and Chaos boons in the spoilers thread is really good
but the more I think about what I initially said, the more I realise I'm not concerned with whether the average player remembers when they have a debuff,

That menu is just awfully designed,
It might seem fine to you but if you had poor vision, dyslexia, or were just playing on a tiny screen,
I think it would very quickly become a chore to even read it

As a rule, It's okay to expect your players to read lots of text in your game,
but you should never make the act of reading itself any more challenging than it absolutely has to be:

Use big, clear fonts, in a colour that won't ever blend into the background, Etc. etc. etc.

The menu should just be clearer

is my point

If nothing else, the text should be spaced out a little, made slightly bigger and for the whole thing to be better organised so you can decipher information faster

[atomic panther]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/473685187780411405/557040876023709697/unknown.png
:dab:

[keen badger]

Expecting players to open the menu is fine, as long as it isn't a hassle to use for anyone with mild vision problems

the rest of the GUI is great though

Thanks for the visual reference @atomic panther

👍

[plucky oxide]

Readability of text, or allowing to give player more options on how to read text/simplifying language, is a pretty hard challenge. It's a design challenge, for sure. I for one am totally fine with everything you said above. I personally don't think that problem is with chaos boons, specifically, but in how the effects of boons are roughly 80% text and 20% visual indicator. I'd welcome a Codex page that listed indicators of what was happening in your current run, clearly and concisely!

[keen badger]

You have no idea how happy that response makes me~

😂

[plucky oxide]

On top of that, scalers for UI to globally change text size would be awesome for runs. The text and icons scaling of the in-game UI, such as the resource counters, could also be in the hands of the player.

[worn fulcrum]

where are Hades screenshots kept, do you know?

[plucky oxide]

I just click on my windows button at bottom left and type 'Hades'. It takes me to a folder where all my f10 snapshots are taken, methinks.

[worn fulcrum]

Oh, here it is!

[keen badger]

Documents/Saved Games/Hades/Screenshots

[worn fulcrum]

ty

here's my high score: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/370353837006913537/557043994408779777/Hades_00004.png

[atomic panther]

:D

[keen badger]

So... I genuinely would love to keep discussing the minutia of well crafted Graphic User Interface design with you @plucky oxide buuut.... it's like: 3:40 here in merry old England so... I should probably disappear and finally catch some zzz's (pronounced: Zed's, not Zee's, you philistines)

😴

[plucky oxide]

Yeah, I'm working late trying to figure out why my Vray passes aren't working, so I'll catch you later. Have a nice rest!

[woeful stirrup]

See, if you had taken Nyx's keepsake, Tskami, you would have been fully healed

[worn fulcrum]

not quite, because Grim Inevitability

[woeful stirrup]

Could have picked something else instead :P

[pearl willow]

is the pom from an inferno gate any different from a normal pom?

[woeful stirrup]

Twice the upgrades, I believe.

[south comet]

plus its spicy

[pearl willow]

that'd make sense, i know it doubles hearts but i swear i had one earlier today and only got +1, maybe i just wasn't paying proper attention

[forest marsh]

+1? Sounds like

[nova ice]

@woeful stirrup - I was looking more closely at the blurbs and you're right. I wound up just deleting my feedback. :V Thanks for getting me to look more carefully!

[woeful stirrup]

You're welcome. I get why you'd make that mistake: for some deaths (like old age), the blurbs aren't usually too related.

[nova ice]

Maybe I'll just update it to say that some of the blurbs should be more related to their deaths so that it's not confusing at first.

Even though it something super minor and kinda silly to give feedback on

[lost rose]

naaah, if you have feedback, i'm sure sgg wants to hear it!!

[regal nexus]

@woeful stirrup https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/453609837016645643/557073854653005824/unknown.png

Didn't get the full stack of darkness ups but still

[atomic panther]

I'm ranking up my Black Shawl so I can do these shenanigans

[woeful stirrup]

Nice. Is your keepsake not max level or have you not completely removed the anti-heal?

I'm done with 25 heat on all weapons so I'll slowly go up while unlocking more rerolls and ranking up my keepsakes. Hope I'll be skilled enough to try it at some point.

[atomic panther]

I started a new save recently, so my keepsakes aren't all max rank, and Black Shawl was one I didn't use much in my last save so I didn't bother to rank it up (until now)

[woeful stirrup]

It's weird how overlooked this keepsake is. I guess unskilled players would rather take better starting health or healing items in pots while skilled players don't need the heals on low heat and will disable them on high heat. A shame, really

[regal nexus]

It is max level, just it only shows as much heal as you are missing health!

My verdict from the 130 runs with it is that the keepsake isn't the worst, but it's also not better than cerberus most of the time

However if you happen to get the poseidon/chaos darkness buff and don't have healing disabled for whatever reason, it's a solid option even on high heat

[woeful stirrup]

130... runs?

[regal nexus]

130 heat runs >.>

[woeful stirrup]

You got me scared for a moment.

[regal nexus]

Those would be some real impressive speedruns, hoo boy

Did get a 9 minute bow run without even having a real trinket equipped when leveling the nyx one though, so that was neat

[woeful stirrup]

So it doesn't usually give you more than 60 health in a run without other darkness boosts than heat?

[regal nexus]

Pretty much, you get 36 darkness from regular pickups and 72 from elite ones which give 14/15 and 29 health respectively

The fury gives more of course, but it's not really a good trinket for the first floor since the goal's usually to just try and avoid hits altogether there

plus not having deflect attack was a massive handicap, and made any of the hydra battles that spawned multiple wave heads nigh on impossible

But yeah, the times the trinket does go off it's pretty ridiculous, like that screenshot where I didn't even have the poseidon darkness buff and would've healed 96 health from the one pickup

[woeful stirrup]

Could work well as an emergency trinket then. Added to the rerolls, if there is ever a room that wrecks you, you could try to get a few darkness room to heal back to full.

[regal nexus]

Yep! The only real issue is you pretty much need to be playing moderate to high heat while still having healing enabled, which just feels wrong 😆

[woeful stirrup]

As someone who has not tried moderate to high heat yet, can't really say I get what you mean :p

[turbid needle]

do any of you use the adamant rail sepcial?

[hasty mauve]

I don't even use the rail

[turbid needle]

that's not

how is that helpfull

then just dont respond

well i just made a bunch of Alt fire suggestions to it

because that bomb is dreadfull

[hasty mauve]

I still don't get why people think the special is bad 🤔

Just shoot where the big bad minions of the underworld are gonna go, not where they are

[turbid needle]

did you read the feedback?

as someone who frequents the adamant rail , it's got some issues

like shots being to narrow to deflect something like bombs

or the shots from Witches

[hasty mauve]

It does deal alot of damage in an aoe 🤔 Makes sense that its slow

[turbid needle]

if that's the case

why does explosive launcher ADD damage and is basically that but a straight line of fire

why does explosive shot of the bow also not do that

just the charge time

[hasty mauve]

Explosive launcher doesn't do that much damage without any boons

🤔

[turbid needle]

Carpet bomb -90%

80%

and the other one is

fire it 3 times

why not just fire as a rocketr

like \

not that hard

[hasty mauve]

I dislike carpet bomb, 3 times is pretty guchi

[turbid needle]

i dislike both

because i cant get it to work when i need to dash morer

i cant take my time

to position

and fire

i have to dash and shoot

even on boss fights, the only fight i can kind of use it

is hydra

and sometime meg

[hasty mauve]

Everything in Hades depends on your playstyle I guess 🤔

I dislike bow and rail

[turbid needle]

yeah but this is very cumbersome that allot of people dislike the rail

i only dislike it's special

[hasty mauve]

I don't like ranged weapons that deal 10 damage a shot :d

[turbid needle]

Yeah but bow does 40

[hasty mauve]

Then again it's slow

Cant bash through enemies on crazy melee mode

[turbid needle]

actuall

its not slow

the al fire is great

Artemis + Alt + 100% more shots

that's pretty insane

[hasty mauve]

You mean

[turbid needle]

because the back stab damage adds

[hasty mauve]

The bow special ?

[turbid needle]

yeah

[hasty mauve]

Hate it

😄

[turbid needle]

i used to dislike it

it's a very different way to get around it

but it literally 3 shotted bosses on 60 heat ..>

just 3 uses of that special

melted trough what 500hp

that was pretty sick

[hasty mauve]

I like to melt them with world splitter

Just bash their heads in

[plucky oxide]

World splitter is one of the best upgrades in the game and it needs a nerf, in my opinion.

[hasty mauve]

Well yeah

Killing meg in a few swoops is pretty op 😄

[plucky oxide]

World splitter on sword.
Shotgun on rail.
Both, in my opinion, offer far too much value.

[atomic panther]

Pls don't nerf World Splitter ;_;

[plucky oxide]

It's insanely good. Honestly, I just don't want a single upgrade in the game that can take you waaaay too far in comparison to the rest of the upgrades.

[hasty mauve]

If theres something broken its still vicious skewer though 😄

[turbid needle]

shotgun on rail

is shotfun

but you wont ever use your special

right/

[plucky oxide]

I beat the game on my third attempt due to the sword lifedrinker upgrade, and I feel like a lot of the mystery of what was to come was lost.

[turbid needle]

because why go bomb when you have a shotgun

[plucky oxide]

I use my special no matter what build I'm running on rail.

[turbid needle]

really

what heat?

[plucky oxide]

At least once per wave, as a preamble.

[turbid needle]

hmm

yeah i cant afford to use it

bound to get hit

[plucky oxide]

If there's no enemies, there's no reason to not fire it.

[turbid needle]

because of it's target + slow moving bomb

i really hope they can fix the special to be a fast awnser

instead of.. i gotta aim.. gotta shoot. and ow im diead

[plucky oxide]

The summoning portals are basically targets for free damage at the beginning. It definitely need bonuses to be more reliable, but I don't think it's inherently flawed by design. Just needs some quality of life tweaks.

I also don't know how it functions on controllers.

[turbid needle]

^

[plucky oxide]

But as a mouse and keyboard, it's as simple as point and click. Seems to be the only mechanic in the game currently that doesn't favor analog.

[turbid needle]

ah

see i use controller

but also

i play on 120 heat

so i kinda got experience from 25 runs

with that blasted slow special

[plucky oxide]

I like 20 heat with more mobs. I try to never fail a run. It makes the not-so-perfect runs feel really satisfying to see through.

[turbid needle]

im just pulling my hair out P

it's because of this mode i found some design flaws

[plucky oxide]

I know someone here a long time ago

[turbid needle]

like the rails shots being to narrow to deflect bombs and orbs

[plucky oxide]

Beat max heat with rail special

Using Zeus

Er, sorry

Poseidon

[turbid needle]

ow yeah

my thoughts on him

completely 180d

i thought his dash was still like his wrath ability

but he's actually pretty good

because you dont need walls

enemies can slam into eachother too

wich makes that boon way better

• poseidon and zeus is a duo boon appearntly

[plucky oxide]

Poseidon favors more-heat runs, from what others have said.

Yeah, I can't say I like that duo boon.

[turbid needle]

i mean

it's got some issues as well

but hey that's EA for you i guess

allot of this game still needs to be optmized

[hasty mauve]

EA?

🤔

[turbid needle]

come on man

use your head

[hasty mauve]

I refuse

[turbid needle]

what is hades in?

[icy edge]

Early access

[turbid needle]

^

genius right there

[hasty mauve]

Amazing

[icy edge]

They did tell me im special

[hasty mauve]

I also don't like shortening words

[plucky oxide]

Is ok the shortening of Okay

[hasty mauve]

Okeley dokeley

[icy edge]

There is like 30 variations of what ok is short for

[plucky oxide]

K.

[atomic panther]

Oklahoma

[hasty mauve]

^