Ez clapper
#h1-builds-and-combat
hollow totem
violet stirrup
gun is ridiculous
hasty mauve
I'm scared of going back to Hades
I got to lasty bossy with 120 heat
Died cause I nosedived into lava and panicked
Yeeee
violet stirrup
time to do 180 heat
violet stirrup
yes haha
pastel jolt
i didn't even have the choice to skip murderboat bc it was the only option
hasty mauve
oh
pastel jolt
gg
somber epoch
wow whats 180 heat look like lol
somber epoch
🗞 bad
hasty mauve
I'm sorry
violet stirrup
meg u fingfong bastard
violet stirrup
no shes not a good furry
proud storm
megaera you contemptuous witch
plush blaze
megaman
violet stirrup
meagera will doe
hasty mauve
MEGGUDES
turbid needle
megagorgon the furry
violet stirrup
demigorgon
ultimate furry
i am zagreus
and aggreus is broken
zagerus is fire demon lord
zagereust is actally god
I zagree with all of you that agreeus is the most powerful
kill me
lol
shadow heath
what are the best boons to use with the gun's special? so far only zeus's has been helpful for me
if they adjust the targeting to start on zagreus then deflect would be helpful
atomic panther
With the special, I like to go poseidon to yeet enemies into the sun, but Artemis is fun too
somber epoch
Oceanman's boon is pretty good
indigo compass
nice just beat my first 60 heat run with the adamant rail:)
turbid needle
I've never been able to really enjoy spear special
I liked the Dionsysus special on it, but generally
Idk
indigo compass
i like the spear special tbh
had zeus on it with 400 percent armour dmg was pretty crazy
old rivet
In this run i had 519 dmg consistent crit and backstab whit special
atomic panther
The 50% buff to the special was all I needed to start playing spear again tbh. It can now kill Brimstones in one special, which is what it was missing before
old rivet
Does anyone use the charge for the spear at all?
green musk
open kernel
Also I find pests even more annoying than they were previously
Before they would blanket like a corner of the battlefield
Now they just blanket the whole thing while you're distracted with other enemies
old rivet
Just focus them down
atomic panther
They're intended to be annoying support enemies, now they're just doing it better. My problem is that sometimes they throw the bombs into walls/empty spaces and they auto explode without giving you time to react
@toxic acorn Regarding your most recent feedback, the threshold for each Infernal Gate is 2 times the current room number. An Infernal Gate in room 6 would be 12 heat, while one in room 14 would be 28 heat
atomic panther
No worries!
toxic acorn
i added an edit to the beginning of the post
it is kinda feel-bad that you don't know when the gate will show up, though
maybe adding a pact that you can only add to after the meg fight. then you can work your way up with heat so the beginning isn't quite as daunting
gah idk
proud storm
happy valentines day ❤ https://i.imgur.com/FaUQzhp.jpg
hasty mauve
Aaaww
Why can't I send messages on feedback btw 🤔
Oooh theres a tech fix for black screen or game freeze
fast shardBOT
Thanks for reporting a game freeze! The most common solution to this issue can be found in #hades-tech-fixes-old
night pasture
Check the pinned messages in feedback
hasty mauve
ah
lone zephyr
Hey guys, Meg talks a lot about mirror helping me to defeat her. Does she have some secret interraction if I beat her without mirror upgrades?
manic ermine
i did try that but it triggered the heat dialogue instead
proud storm
u should try again
she has one comment when you obtain the pact of punishment and another when you complete a run with heat
worn fulcrum
just did 77 heat - working my way up!
proud storm
hades also comments on you finishing a heat run
lone zephyr
what's a heat run? 😄
proud storm
basically a run where you've invested in the pact of punishment
though youre not supposed to know that til you beat the hydra djhggj
proud storm
uh idk
glossy slate
hoooly
when they said they nerfed Thunder Strike I was expecting like, maybe 10 damage shaved off the high end
I wasn't expedcting to get an Epic with 11 damage
ember lotus
I feel like that's kind of balanced for some builds like Flurry Sword, Spear, and now the Railgun. It's less exciting on Bow and Shield
On anything spammable, it's still throwing out a lot of aoe
glossy slate
on another note, Whipped Frenzy is so hard to deal with but so fun to deal with
maxed it out in one go and Meg turned into a Touhou boss
violet stirrup
Found a cool animation cancel with the shield - Charge up bull rush and immediately press Q - this will give you a short dash and the shield toss but you still keep the shield so you can continue attacking
Press Q immediately after you see the charge up indicator
Its really hard to pull off since you need perfect timing
Because you need to press Q the moment you charge
Even if you do it a bit later, the dash/shield toss will still happen but you can't attack until you get your shield back
bold grotto
I feel like the randomness of the timer rooms appearing really ruins the games speedrun potential
it's so fun for me to try and go zoom but eventually you're just screwed if you get a timer room at all
The "kill things without taking damage" is a good idea but I don't feel like a timed survival room should be mandatory if it's going to appear randomly basically
forest marsh
@pulsar loom RE: your feedback about "purchasing" from an Infernal Gate with Heat. That's not how they work, unfortunately. You have be actively using Heat via the Pact of Punishment located in Zag's room in order to be eligible for entry to an Infernal Gate. The cost listed represents the minimum amount of active Heat 
required, but none is "spent" to enter. The reward is also only given if you successfully complete the Perfect Clear room that follows
pulsar loom
I really don't understand the system at all, even after your explanation
forest marsh
Lets say you spent 15 Heat on the Pact of Punishment. This will make 15 appear in the very top right of your screen. Then let's say you come across an Infernal Gate that says 10 . You would then be able to enter that gate and attempt to get the prize
Heat is used for the Pact in the same way that Darkness is used for the Mirror
Except it makes the game harder instead of easier
pulsar loom
OK I think I might understand, seems like a really clunky system
forest marsh
It's just a way to offer rewards to people who are challenging themselves by using Heat
sonic hedge
i like the new gun
wintry moon
man I am really getting used to the bow now
but the E X A G R Y P H is pretty fly too tbh
night pasture
hey, hades discord gameplay seems like a place that knows things
if you equip a god keepsake and then beat megaera, does it "refresh" the keepsake?
forest marsh
No
night pasture
so keeping it equipped will not get your next boon to be the same god, you might as well switch it, unless you want the rarity bonus
duly noted, thanks!
forest marsh
Correct, and you're welcome!
night pasture
also since it's long gone, what was the exploit that made them implement you only being able to change keepsakes once?
just curious
grand patrol
people would go to the cabinet, put on the collar, equip something else, equip the collar again, until they got to full health
night pasture
that makes sense, I didn't realize the collar boosted your current health if you swapped to it
night pasture
I have to say, even with the nerf, lightning strike is still amazing
lv.2 lightning strike + lv.3 storm lightning made everything a walk in the park, and then I got splittng bolt in a trial room with aphrodite
I set a new speed record
for me, at least
glossy slate
thankfully they didn't remove Thunder Strike's compatibility with the Skull Earring or Pressure Points
you can still get stupid damage with those
night pasture
and I still think the rail is pretty damn good, too, although that nerf I could see coming from a mile away
I think they probably took the "Rob Pardo" approach to balancing that one
looking back I guess they took the approach of making things way to strong and then dialing them back to a lot of things
glossy slate
I'm still sad that the rail was almost exclusively responsible for Zeus getting nerfed
honestly some of the god boons should have separate scaling based on the weapon
forest marsh
That would be fun, but also hell for the SG team
night pasture
they probably should, and maybe they will, but you can understand how from a consistency point of view that's a nightmare
what wightfyre said
glossy slate
like keep Thunder Strike at the current damage for sword and rail, but pump it up a bit for spear and shield
forest marsh
I think that gets too close to trying to make every boon suitable for every weapon all the time
glossy slate
not to the original levels but a 66% damage cut?
night pasture
I mean, the run I was just talking about was with the sword
glossy slate
or, another option
make flat damage scaling boons get affected by Chaos stat boosts
forest marsh
That could be interesting
glossy slate
they're already affected by Skull Earring and can crit with Pressure Points, so why not?
night pasture
I will say that I don't find the chaos boons beneficial, not necessarily because the tradeoff isn't worth it, but mostly because you give up selection of a guarnteed thing for a random thing, and don't know what you're getting afterwards
night pasture
how about this
a god that's a hedgehog and you need to collect 7 "sapphires" to give to chaos but then you become unstoppable
grand patrol
forest marsh
So help you, the Doc will get back in touch
glossy slate
The doctor will see you now
quaint gale
https://i.imgur.com/MbGaCST.jpg gambling on my damage makes me feel alive
night pasture
if I'm being honest deadly strike still seems way too good
I think it's maybe just the definition of criticals that is too good???
sorry congratulations on you successful run I'm being a downer
night pasture
distant memory's actually quite good with bow
atomic panther
It is, yeah! I feel it's underestimated a lot, and it doesn't get the love it deserves
night pasture
wait a minute, are you the same person that was extolling the virtues of the shattered shackle before the good times update???
night pasture
@hasty mauve are you advocating for the shattered shackle?
because I, Mejwell, will state on my life that the shattered shackle is a terrible keepsake
I am sorry you had to find out this way
atomic panther
As much as I love Sisyphus, he really needs to work on his gift giving
hasty mauve
It's too niche to work
night pasture
THANK YOU
atomic panther
Lemme get a pet rock
forest marsh
I let my pet rocks roam free outdoors. So cruel to keep them cooped up inside
hasty mauve
Ah yes
Time to try 120 heat before I head to work
Hopefully it crashes again
HAHAA
south comet
i really really gotta start thinking about how many rooms ive gone thru. I just accepted a chaos boon that will damage me every time I attack and then i walk straight into the meg fight the next room
Zag just said "oh no" the second he walked in and just, yea, same dude
i have the sword so its time to spend 10 minutes T posing on meg lets see how it goes
forest marsh
Good luck!
hasty mauve
The T pose of the ages
shadow heath
oof
forest marsh
Sometimes the No-attack and No-special ones are worthwhile, but the No-dash is just awful unless you're running shield and can bull rush instead
high pulsar
I'm currently on a spear run with Epic Athena special boon and Vicious Skewer. A backstab returning spear hit with boiling blood does 595 damage. Meg went down in a few hits. I'm having way too much fun.
I'm not entirely sure why the spear throw got its base damage buffed, but it's very nice.
forest marsh
Spear special feels much more useful now
high pulsar
Oh, and I just got the Artemis boon that gives +100% to critical damage.
sharp rock
I had such a fun run with the railgun+ lvl 3 Ares damage after hit boon. I still keep dying to Hydra but I'm having so much fun with this weapon 
upbeat junco
What do you think is the best upgrades and boons for the rail now that zeus has been nerfed?
limber cipher
i couldnt get it cuz of the contract thing, but faster homing bullets sounded really good
i was havin a great time just now, lobbing festive fog at waves of enemies, slowing them down enough that i can bombard them with 'nade after 'nade
then my headphones ran out of battery and crashed the game : )
quaint gale
that can crash the game? that's not a correlation I would have thought of
limber cipher
a lot of games have panic attacks where there is a sudden lack of audio output, for some reason
at least for me
hollow notch
You know the hammer upgrade for sword, the one that makes your special faster and auto dash forward before it
it seem weird that you can get hit right after you dash and then your special doesn't trigger
And you're left just standing there and getting pummeled
It would be better if it just makes your special faster, or if it's just one action, and not two seperate
limber cipher
i never got it, but i always assumed that it was instant
like you dash and, the next frame, your special does damage
hollow notch
It's not, I've gotten hit several times
And usually I'm not ready to react, because I expect the special
And this game has no invulnerability time. so you can get hit multiple times for a single mistake
I've come to value the Athena boon, where you briefly deflect all dmg after being hit
that's what other rogue-ish games usually have
brief recovery time after getting hit
glossy slate
They have a brief deflection shield after you get beaten really hard, but it’s a high threshold
hollow notch
Guess I've never gotten beaten that hard 😄
But I think there have been times when I've lost 20-ish hp in a single instance
glossy slate
I’ve only triggered it while getting sandwiched between a bomber and a pack of bloodless
Whipped Frenzy is brutal
hollow notch
I only have one level of it at the moment 😄
glossy slate
I maxed it in one go and it’s a whole new game now
It’s not just movespeed, it’s attack speed too
And dash distance
Louts are terrifying, boneheads swarm you, Meg is a Touhou boss
pastel jolt
“But I think there have been times when I've lost 20-ish hp in a single instance”
oh you sweet summer child
glossy slate
Remember the days of getting stunlocked into 45 damage from the hydra?
hollow notch
Oh, that was bad...
And I only recently started using the Pact, I just finished a 15 pain run
I don't know if I'll work up the courage to do a 45 😄
glossy slate
I’m trying for 60 and I’m getting pimpslapped all the way to Asphodel and back
hollow notch
Was 60 the second statue?
I think the third one was 120, but I don't remember exactly
glossy slate
I haven’t even seen the third yet but yeah the second is 60
pastel jolt
i’ve been trying to do 60 heat runs with 500% enemy damage
taking 70 damage in one bomb is fun
hollow notch
My last run. Had dark thirst. Got the chaos boon +70-ish percent darkness. Got the Poseidon boon +50% on all rewards. Had 15 heat, which is about +40% darkness. Made ~250 darnkess in one run 😄
south comet
how much does like a laser tap from a brimstone do sparrow?
hollow notch
Also, the Poseidon boon affects hearts, and they increase your HP by more than 25
south comet
with that high of a damage percentage it sounds like itd be so annoying
south comet
man i would not last long with that lmao
south comet
owwwww
pastel jolt
yeah, lost my previous run in asphodel bc of the witches
funnily enough it means meg’s minions are more dangerous than she is, because there’s so many of them
south comet
poor meg
pastel jolt
listen i can dodge meg a lot easier than i can dodge six or seven witches all firing at me from various points around the room
south comet
oh agreed
the only meg thing i have trouble dodging is her big projectile launch if im not using the shield
but i usually just run to the other side of the room and its a lot easier
pastel jolt
i’ve been going spear with zeus attack for this and it can pretty easily handle the shots
so long as you don’t tunnel vision and end up getting smacked about by her buddies
but yeah it’s easier to play it safe and run away from that one
south comet
spear is probly my least used but im excited to try it
i was sworm shield only until i got the hydra which i only succeeded at recently so i have to explore the other ones
pastel jolt
i’ve only ever beaten hydra with shield once and that was before the update that added the stat screen
it’s kinda funny actually because that means it’s the only weapon that doesn’t have a best clear time on it
quaint gale
Meg just said I can only beat her because of the mirror's buffs? time to turn everything off and prove her wrong
she'll REGRET THESE WORDS
still pewter
megan is a sore loser
quaint gale
https://i.imgur.com/ENxC5sM.jpg don't step to me again meg
hollow notch
Ok, you know how armoured wretches's attacks cannot be interupted?
hollow notch
If you knockback an armored wrtech, which has started it's attack, it will perform the attack while flying backwards 😄
wretch*
icy edge
I wish Meg had a unique voice line if you beat her without getting hit
hollow notch
There is no limit on how long you can hold the shield charge, right?
I'll test if you can live through a survival room if you just hold a charge in a corner
I'll report later 😃
heady palm
You get dmg by charging the shield arent you ?
plush blaze
I believe you can charge shield forever, yes
hollow notch
I think that you can get interrupted before the charge is full
worn owl
You can get interrupted while it is full as well
hollow notch
If you get hit from behind, yes
worn owl
Or from the side
Or even in front but a diagonal
IDK if it was like this before but
Even having a brimstone like 30 degrees from your front
Seems to be able to hit you
So if you have one on either side you have to reposition
hollow notch
Everything that is the path of the shield is blocked
I just got shot in the face by a witch in asphodel
something like 43 dmg 😄
no invulnerability
hollow notch
So, you can't make it through a Tartarus survival room while just holding the shield charge in a corner 😄
And I got a nice trial of the gods room. All epic zeus and then all epic poseidon 😃
radiant grove
so I just faught the demigorgon and he/she shot me with that stone thing, I get away and then I get stuck with the icon above me and I couldn't move until it hit me again
upbeat junco
What do you guys think is the best boons/upgrades for the rail is now that zeus has been nerfed?
worn owl
the legendary hasn't been so that is still the best
if unreliable to get
after that I'd say Athena
shotgun is probably still the best upgrade
but I might be biased in that I hate rapid fire weapons
upbeat junco
I liked the rapid fire part of the rail but the spread shot upgrade felt really weird for me
and you have to get really close
i guess ill just give it another try
old rivet
I died to those rooms who you have to survive X amount of time i had the chaos blessing that when foes die tey throw and inferno bomb at you I died when the timer hit 0 and every Foe that got spawned trew a inferno bomb and i went from 100 to zero
upbeat junco
wow
worn owl
hahahaha
upbeat junco
is it possible to give up a run and then try to get a different starter upgrade?
worn owl
that chaos thing is super helpful if you have a good reflect though
old rivet
What is heat?
lost rose
You can use it to make the game more difficult
old rivet
Isnt that pain level
lost rose
You use heat to increase the pain level
old rivet
Oh ok thx
upbeat junco
honestly with the Rail Zeus was obviously overpowered but I think they over-nerfed it. Like having 15 damage at normal quality and scaling with +6 damage was pretty strong, but going from that to a 7 on rare quality and +3 damage scaling seem a bit much and makes Zeus' chain lightning attack kinda useless for every weapon except the rail and even with the rail it's still not very good. The next best thing in my opinion would be Aries attack curse or poseidon knockback attack but even then it doesn't feel very good for me at least.
Maybe they could keep the base damage what it is now, but raise the scaling?
I haven't tested the shotgun athena yet tho so ill have a look at that
radiant grove
second hydra kill
atomic panther
Nice!
still pewter
Nice! Congrats!
atomic panther
Yeah it's floating over the lava shootin lil blobs at you
atomic panther
Well, what better time to use them?
pure plinth
lmao true
atomic panther
Don't call me out like this
somber epoch
look i'd like to report a bug, death defiance does not prevent the instant kill after beating hydra and trying to advance
sgg plz fix
atomic panther
^^^^
somber epoch
ok then at least
at least have him die multiple times according to how many defiances remaining
pure plinth
somber epoch
look they gave zag a gun nothing needs to make sense anymore
lost rose
(storyteller voice) "and then zag was killed by...er....a spike pit" "i have 3 death defiances, old man." "three spike pits."
somber epoch
"zag realized he left his wallet in his room"
remember, if you want to swear
just use "blood and darkness"
hard holly
"Which was rather embarassing given all the signs stating clearly that there are 3 spike pits there"
Or bastard
Thanks meg
lost rose
thanks meg!
proud storm
black metal is great bc you get to do this https://i.imgur.com/kBUEZMn.jpg
somber epoch
or hell
lost rose
i think one of the complaining shades also made it so we can say "smartass", thanks shade
somber epoch
you can say hell too
wanna hear real sad time hours?
i got ares legendary before meg
proud storm
bl**d and d*rkness
somber epoch
and the only rift i had was from dash
proud storm
oh
lost rose
****
proud storm
blood and dorkness uwu >:3c
elder hinge
Oooops will try again! Sorry. What I meant to say is I love this game but I suck hard at it! Lousy timing, twitchy trigger finger. Lots of bad habits that get me killed!? Anyone putting together a strategy play-thru or video tips?? Thanks
somber epoch
strategy: don't get hit by things - hypnos
i mean like tbqh
go play Bastion
it'll help a lot
elder hinge
I get that from the voice in the game! Just frustrates me more! Hahaha
I found Bastion a lot easier?
proud storm
shoutout to dio's cast for hiding hydra's bullets from me
lost rose
I know there are some gameplay videos out there but I'm having trouble digging them up right now...
As in, strategy videos
hard holly
I did think about making a guide
elder hinge
thanks @lost rose for caring!
lost rose
Haha, it's my job! ^^
somber epoch
what's the type of guide you were looking for, zellar
lost rose
Yeah, is there a specific fight you need help with? Or just in general?
elder hinge
I'm not sure maybe watch someone who is really awesome and I can watch and pick up some tips ! Anything to just break all the bad habits I have when playing...In general. After 40 plus years of gaming it is pretty frustrating to love a game and be bad at it! You get me???
I was really looking forward to Metro Exodus but the jump scares and QTE at the beginning have thrown me off. Back to "Hades" to hit me on the head on top of it! Right
lost rose
There are a bunch of streamers who've posted links to their channels in #self-promotion - you could go check those out if you wanted!
green birch
Lifetime gamer.....
somber epoch
@elder hinge well, is there anything specific you want tips for?
indigo compass
ide say try and be patient with ur dashes in general dont just madly dash around or ull end up in traps and caught off guard
and try prioritize certain enemies over others like numbskulls or witches so u dont get caught off guard by some projectiles or something, and try and bait some enemies before dashing behind them so they dont get a chance to turn and hit u
allso walls and obstacles are a good way to avoid dmg by for instance baiting louts into pillars and other obstacles so u can then go in for the kill
near seal
Can someone tell me what the requirements for Dionysus’s legendary is?
pastel jolt
you need peer pressure, numbing sensation, or bad influence, and then you also need either tipsy shot or high tolerance
which makes no sense really as tipsy shot is required for high tolerance but idk whatever
near seal
thanks @pastel jolt
grizzled breach
Great thanks guys! Maybe look at making a learning center or something along those lines!! Just for us grandpas with limited ability!! Hahaha
kind marten
So Dio leg requires 3 boons? Am I reading that right? Zeus only requires 2 if I recall. Do other gods require 3 as well? It would explain why I've only seen Zeus and Artemis leg.
pastel jolt
dionysus requires two at minimum
kind marten
Aahh! I was reading it wrong I think
hasty mauve
Leg
abstract glen
When I enter infernal gates, am I paying heat to enter?, or is that dependent on how much heat is being used for the pacts?
pastel jolt
you need to have a certain level of heat to enter the gates
but you don't 'spend' or lose that heat
abstract glen
Kay, thank you
hard holly
Hm, has noone written feedback about the Zeus overnerf yet?
turbid needle
Zeus attack boons in overall felt rather strong
hard holly
They did, but now they feel extremely weak
turbid needle
that's even more true, what you sayu
hard holly
To the point of not really worth using even on the weapons that attack fast
turbid needle
it seems to the point that everything got unscaled just as guns were
and it seems like every weapon was affected
which is crazy
pastel jolt
i mean, i would still consider them worth using
hard holly
I mean
Dionysus has way better damage than Zeus now
Even stuff like Athena does
The fact that it goes in an AoE is decent, but not worth the little damage it does
turbid needle
I kind of wished that Zeus gets nerfed, because before it was basically
want to speedrun? Zeus attack
turbid needle
Flurry Jab Spear felt kinda fast enough that Zeus was really great upgrade, but yeah... strongest thing was Zeus Gun stuff...
hard holly
I mean Zeus did need to be taken down a notch
turbid needle
but not that much
hard holly
And maybe there needed to be a way to balance flat vs percentage better
Or just not have flat damage
But this was too much, yes
turbid needle
I think that scaling should be weapon dependant
not "you know guys, Zeus Gun boon is broken so we are just gonna make it so that Zeus Attack is aboslutely unusable, cheers"
though...
when I think about it, it would take so much more work on the programming side I guess ?
old rivet
Your Special/Atack/Cast emits a chain lightning that deal X% of your Special/Atack/Cast Damage
worn fulcrum
an attack that does 7 extra damage on a gun that does 10 damage per shot is still quite strong as a %, and not bad on a spear that does 15 per attack or a sword that does an average of 20
I also think that having a differentiation between flat damage and % damage boons is nice
Ares, Diyonisus, and Zeus get to be better on fast, low-damage stuff and the rest get to be better on high-damage stuff for some strategic differentiation
especially given that on a given weapon, the attack and special tend to be one and the other of the two groups
fleet chasm
I feel I may have broken the game and it's a shame it ended up happening right at the Hydra. Turns out that Artemis' Support Fire will fire on all of Dionysus' poison ticks. Take Aegis and the shield upgrade to make it hit 6 enemies and D's poison on special attack and well..
every .5 seconds fire a support arrow for every poison mark in the room
turbid needle
Good God
turbid needle
You were the bullet hell
fleet chasm
that screens already full enough not to mention with over a dozen support arrows every half second
turbid needle
which means you might aswell use special
fleet chasm
yeah
hard holly
Also Ares is worse on everything actually
Ares wants slow, low-damage skills that are worth using
The only one that exists happens to still be better with Athena
turbid needle
which is bow ?
hard holly
Nope, Gun special
worn fulcrum
Athena gives almost entirely damage
hard holly
Athena is slightly ahead in damage
pastel jolt
yeah i feel like saying "oh zeus isn't worth using" is ignoring the fact that zeus's damage spreads to nearby targets
worn fulcrum
If the damage on Zeus is high enough to compete with Athena on a single Target, that seems too high
hard holly
Eh, Bow special falls under not being worth using outside of utility, but sure
worn fulcrum
And before, it was way, way higher
hard holly
The problem with the multitarget thing is
Its not very relevant for boss fights
Which happen to be the primary challenge
worn fulcrum
It's pretty relevant
hard holly
Much like Poseidon, as it happens
I mean in case of Meg it might as well not do anything
pastel jolt
false. zeus boon on meg lets you clear out her mooks, zeus attack on hydra spreads between heads
worn fulcrum
Meg had ads, who it's pretty helpful to kill if your damage isn't super high
hard holly
Eh
pastel jolt
unovven, you're doing that thing again where you state your opinion like it's a fact
worn fulcrum
And Hydra phase 3 is the hardest part I think
hard holly
I mean with Hydra the problem is that heads need to be pretty close to bounce
Phase 1 and 2 they tend not to be
worn fulcrum
Plus, taking incidental damage in rooms really can add up
so things that help clear rooms super easily makes go do better against bosses
hard holly
As for Meg, the thing with her adds is that usually, Meg forces you back a fair bit to the point where ads are too far away to harm you
worn fulcrum
The witches can be pretty good at cross-room Snipes
hard holly
Surprisingly those tend to hit pillars
worn fulcrum
I think chain lightning is best suited to crowded Asphodel rooms, though
hard holly
Oh its great on murderboat
pastel jolt
idk man theytend to get me quite a bit too
pastel jolt
i mean i'd argue it's good just about anywhere
actually no i wouldn't because i don't like arguing,,
hard holly
Well, Voidstones can mess it up
Since if you hit a shielded target the bolt decides to just fly away
And for some reason
It loves targetting shielded enemies first
worn fulcrum
I love that on the Hydra fight with the Zeus cast
Hit a head, bounce to the invincible head, drop on the ground
worn fulcrum
Mhm
somber epoch
I think it isn't supposed to lodge or smth
worn fulcrum
I think because its range to attempt to bounce to is greater than its travel time
So sometimes it will bounce out and then just drop
proud storm
@cedar mirage hi it's Black Out
cedar mirage
So what does it actually do
proud storm
increased dmg against enemies standing in festive fog if theyre affected by blight wine
it's awfully specific
cedar mirage
I must have gotten unlucky with his boons, what’s festive fog?
grand patrol
omg
south comet
you shall not pass
proud storm
btw the little icon for fated authority is literally the little rock gorgons spit at you
except a bit more detailed
proud storm
gorgons spit d20 at you,
jade estuary
there are few enemies i hate more than gorgos
the fact that you can barely see them and they home is so dumb
btw post nerfs what are some good builds?
Zeus used to be OP but not anymore
worn owl
I have ended up hating brimstones and pests more
turbid needle
Zeus used to be OP but not anymore
Zeus is still really good
Getting a Rare or Epic attack boon on a DPS weapon is super satisfying to me
Especially with the Legendary effect, but it's not even necessary. I beat Hydra earlier today on 40 heat with Rare Zeus attack lv. 2 and +4 bounces using the Rail
pastel jolt
i feel like zeus has always worked best on fast weapons
also splitting bolt is just absolute buckets of fun
pastel jolt
nice
hollow notch
I don't see how people can kill that thing mirrorless
pastel jolt
i think the closest i got was that run i did where i was trying to kill the hydra without unlocking the ability to refund points in the mirror
that was fairly low-darkness because it started from a fresh save
(i had a reason for doing that don't worry)
hollow notch
I got two green heads and at one point there was just too much thing going after me
pastel jolt
oof, yeah
hollow notch
Also, Zag can walk between lava islands without getting dmg
Did not know that until now
Only where the crossing is marked, mind you
Maybe there's a ford in the lava or something 😄
hard holly
Yeah Zeus is basically the resident fast weapon boon
Unfortunately, now Dionysus is generally much better
Unless you get splitting bolt, I just see little reason to pick Zeus over Dio
upbeat junco
What are the requirements to getting Zeus' legendary? I've only managed to get it once and that was while Zeus was OP and I just flew through the run. I've generally been getting Zeus attack boon and then increased bouncing on chain.
upbeat junco
Yea I've done that but for whatever reason I never get it. Last time I actually got it I got splitting on the 4th blessing.
hollow notch
I've gotten 4 or 5 of the legendaries
pastel jolt
i mean, the chance of it appearing once you qualify is 30%, if i read it right
hollow notch
Zeus, Poseidon, Aphrodite, Dyo... And maybe Ares, not sure about that
pastel jolt
and if you haven't emptied out the pool enough that means it might get crowded out by other boons
i've had...... zeus, poseidon, artemis, aphrodite - the latter two were the first ones i got and i got them both at the same time in the same run
hollow notch
Sometimes you get them really late in the run, and not all of them are that usefull in a boss fight
upbeat junco
I've had Zeus, Poseidon, Artemis, Aphrodite aswell.
hollow notch
What's Artemis?
analog crystal
Does anyone else play with the +movement speed on the pact? I feel like it really messes with enemy AI in an unintended way
upbeat junco
Support fire, you shoot extra bullets each time you attack, cast or special.
analog crystal
Like meg just dashed at me without the wind up animation
pastel jolt
support fire - attack/cast/special spawns an extra homing projectile
analog crystal
Which feels kinda unfair
pastel jolt
hers is one of the fussier legendary chains i think
hollow notch
Yes, it speeds up spawn and attack animations
pastel jolt
or it was, before they fixed the dash :'D
one of these days i wanna try a blade rift centric run
hollow notch
It's awesome
pastel jolt
mostly bc i feel bad about only ever going for ares to pick up urge to kill
i've used blade dash in a few runs but not as, like, the Main Focus
hard holly
Oh thats because the tooltip is misleading
It speeds up movement and attack speed
So it doesnt mess with their AIs
hollow notch
If you get the chaos boon for extra casts... makes the hydra heads disappear in about 4-5 seconds 😄
hard holly
It just makes them attack faster
hollow notch
You find two heads together, dash close to them, cast three times and that part of the room is clear
The homing upgrade makes the cast stay on them, and they don't move that much
And if you're lucky to get an epic cast, the starting dmg is about 17
With a few poms you can get it to 24-28
and it lasts longer, and it covers a bigger area
Doesn't synergize with boiling blood though
But everything caught in the rift is pretty much obliterated, so it's not such an issue
upbeat junco
What was Dio's legendary?
errant narwhal
black out
it makes enemies take more damage from blight wine while in festive fog
upbeat junco
and what was the attack poisons base damage and scaling?
pastel jolt
blight wine does more damage to enemies caught in your festive fog
upbeat junco
ah
upbeat junco
what was the scaling when upgraded?
pastel jolt
¯_(ツ)_/¯
upbeat junco
ok
pastel jolt
haven't been able to figure that one out
upbeat junco
Im guessing the requirements for leg is Blight attack/special and festive fog cast?
hard holly
+1
pastel jolt
it's...... complicated,
hard holly
If you mean how much pom increases blight win damage, its +1
pastel jolt
i have it on the wiki as One each from following sets: Peer Pressure, Numbing Sensation or Bad Influence / Tipsy Shot or High Tolerance
hard holly
+2 if its a infernal gate pom
pastel jolt
may have changed, idk
the boons from the first set all have attack/dash/special as their own requirements though so you're not far off
errant narwhal
the gamepedia
hollow notch
When I got Dyo's legendary, I had the impression that the dmg did not scale up while wretches were in the fog
Not exactly sure though
errant narwhal
sparrow does a lot of edits to it
hollow notch
And someone mentioned that the blight wine is better than the curses?
pastel jolt
https://hades.gamepedia.com/Dionysus here's dionysus's page in particular, but all the gods have pages on there
hard holly
Depends on what curses you mean
If you mean Ares, yes, they are quite a lot better in fact
hard holly
Well I cant say that Im 100% on the number of ticks
But its somewhere between 6-8
Im thinking 8, or possibly 7
Lets say 7. So at first level, each attack does effectively 21 extra damage
However, unlike Ares, you can stack this up
hollow notch
I've never seen that many, even with the spread shot hammer upgrade on the rail and dyo boon on attack
hard holly
2 attacks do 42, and that already is more damage than Ares
hollow notch
oh, 7 times ticking, sorry
hard holly
Yeah, ticks not stacks
And youre likely getting more than 2 attacks in that time
You are going for flat damage on low damage weapons which as a result have high attack speed
hollow notch
Yes, for the fast weapons, wine might just be better than the curses
hard holly
And for slow weapons, Athena is
Also its less might and more is, really
Especially if you get any of the fast attacks hammers
upbeat junco
What did you mean by the number of ticks?
turbid needle
how many times the damage is applied till it goes away i assume
hollow notch
yep
hollow notch
although bosses seems to get less ticks than wretches
upbeat junco
ah ok
hollow notch
At least that was my impression when I fought the hydra
upbeat junco
so your saying while ares does more damage initially but blight wine does more damage over time.
hollow notch
it seemed to drop stacks quite fast
it's been a nice talk, but I have to go
have fun 😃
upbeat junco
Yea anyway I did mention earlier that I think that over-nerfed Zeus. I'd think that the base damage as it is might be fine but the should increase the how much damage it gets per pom. Because 3 per pom makes it seem really weak.
hard holly
Sort of
Its more that with blight wine, you do a lot more damage in the same time frame once you hit 5 stacks
And more damage overall if you hit 2 stacks
hard holly
And now its too l8 to change it, m8
still pewter
Even though heat costs scale from 0(?!) to 64, I feel like moments like these show that the system can be really frustrating
heat could be a cool tradeoff, where you pay in heat modifiers in return of the benefits of the heat gates
hollow totem
That's
still pewter
you can't plan for interactions like these. if you're not using 64, you're bound to end up in some frustrating situations like this
hard holly
I think a better way is to not spawn gates you cant enter
hollow totem
^
hard holly
But then people might miss that theyre there
hard holly
So even that solution isnt perfect
errant narwhal
and then the next gate was 26 heat hahaaaah
i dont even have that much
i have like, 9
still pewter
yes but, because you can increase your heat in a contuous fashion
and because heat gates' cost scales in a continuous fashion
you end up with just frustrating moments
like, if I use 30 or 31 heat, challenge hardly increases, yet I'm arbitrarily rewarded for doing 31 (if you get a heat gate with 31 heat). and this logic can be applied repeatedly up until you reach the max
still pewter
yeah, but gates scale 30->31->32 (might be by increments of 2 actually, but I'm not too sure)
they do, but the point stands that this feels bad. and the rewards are really significant too, considering they are about twice as good as a normal room's
still pewter
and erebus doesn't count as a chamber
hmm idk alma. no idea. if you're late, probably positive outlook
(anyway, this whole heat gate thingy is not much of an issue tbh)
it's just, when you think about how incrimentally both heat and the cost scales, it gives you the feel that you cannot interract with the system in meaningful ways
emphasis on the feel . it's not too bad in practice, I do admit
errant narwhal
i already lost all my death defies, wish me luck lol
errant narwhal
lol i died but i did get to the last phase, which is what usually happens to me even without heat
i did see unhealthy fixation a couple of times with the bloodless, which was neat but i was so busy frantically panic-dashing all over the place that i didnt see what difference it made
still pewter
rip D:
I got unhealthy fixation once from the pre-hydra shop
not very useful at that point
errant narwhal
yeahhh
it was shop or zeus
and im glad i went shop, because i got a legendary
and zeus wouldnt have given me his because he had that chance already :<
hollow totem
Honestly
screw the hydra
that last phase
with 60
IAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH IIM IN PAIn
kind fiber
How are people liking the new weapons special?
Despite it being pretty slow to land, it seems great
upbeat junco
It does a lot of damage but I just don't really like how slow it is and because of that it's difficult to hit faster enemies
hollow totem
I mean it has not draw backs
you just press special and if it hits it hits
so you kinda just sneak it in between reloads
upbeat junco
Also I just made it past Meg without using an attack boon on the Rail. I wanted Zeus attack but the first boon didn't have the attack
kind fiber
Sure, does pretty well with Athena's special boon, I think it goes up to like with an epic rarity and you can pick up the ability to use 3 in succession for a good deal of damage or coverage
Didn't the Zeus attack boon get gutted?
upbeat junco
It did but im trying to get it with the legendary
but it seems RNG doesn't like this run
not to mention i was on 60 heat
hard holly
I like it a lot tbh
Its what a special should be
An additional tool that doesnt interfere with the primary
Or in other words, you can use both at the same time and not worry about losing effectiveness
hollow totem
Ugh
Now that they nerfed the gun
the faqct that you get locked into so many animations
makes it feel really underpowered
turbid needle
I just beat Hydra on 40 heat with spear + Zeus attack lv. 2 and Zeus' legendary. I'm really not sure whether Zeus!Spear is better or worse than Zeus!Rail
hollow totem
I wouldnt
its already killing me
way to often
I think the gun is a bit weaker than the other weapons after the zeus nerf
turbid needle
Rail is probably the most strategic weapon, excluding the sword
manic ermine
Gun makes dashing inputs awkward
turbid needle
You have to manage the ammo really well, which I struggle with a bit
turbid needle
If reloading wasn't automatic, I think I'd perform a lot better with it
manic ermine
Im not sure if its just this update but even dashing with shield doesnt feel as smooth now
turbid needle
Also I feel like the special sometimes aims erratically ?
hollow totem
Umm no
manic ermine
The special bounces off the invisible walls of the arena
turbid needle
Like the reticle just goes in the opposite direction of where I point right before I let go
Plus I often want to shoot where Zagreus stands to bait in enemies, which is currently very impractical
hollow totem
Yeah that means its hitting an invisible wall
idk
the gun is broke it just feels bad
that's the weirdest thing to say
but that's just how it is
its damage output is insane
but
hard holly
Epic Poseidon on Worldsplitter
sullen crag
SG: Nerfs chain lightning because of Gun
Me: Gets Infinity Chamber, support fire, AND STILL chain lightning
Hehe
upbeat junco
I tried gun with Dio and it just feels weird for me
unless you have upgraded it several times it just feels worse than other boons unless you get 5 stacks and then you have to dash around just reapplying the blight whenever it's about to stop
Other boons have pretty much immediate results whereas dio changes the playstyle and involves more waiting imo
turbid needle
I like Dio's special on the Rail, but his attack is waay worse than any other boon imo
I also just like his dash in general
upbeat junco
I have tried Dio special but attack is weird
haven't*
also i just played through an entire run and finally got the hammer on the shop before hydra
kind fiber
Personally, I don't know why I'd get dio's attack or special boons on any weapon. They seem undertuned, I don't think the dash is much better either
upbeat junco
this is on heat 60 as well so it would have been nice earlier
turbid needle
I'm guessing that his boons just feel really satisfying to me, even tho they aren't actually very good.
kind fiber
Dio's boon for the rail special seems like an especially terrible idea when you could just put Athena's special boon on
Do more damage on every target even with a full duration of your dot
turbid needle
It can be reallly good situationally if you also have the boon that makes blight spread, but that's niche and Idk if it's good enough to justify two boons.
forest marsh
I think Blight damage is in a good place, if it was more then it would make it way too easy
kind fiber
I just don't know what weapons I'd actually use with blight damage
turbid needle
Shield?
upbeat junco
Shield maybe, but it seems like it was designed with Rail in mind probably
forest marsh
I really like Blight with the Piercing Barrage bow upgrade
kind fiber
Its in a weird place of wanting enough attacks to apply every stack of th debuff but not so many as to overapply it leaving it to not really make sense with any weapon in my mind. Before the patch Zeus's attack with have been hands down better on any weapon with a fast attack,
upbeat junco
Yea I think that, yes they should've nerfed Zeus, but they nerfed it into the ground making it nearly unplayable on higher heat levels, whereas it's alright normally but there are significantly more viable builds in normal.
It's almost useless on every weapon except Rail and maybe spear. (I don't use spear but from what I've heard some people liked Zeus on spear)
kind fiber
People used it with sword, rail and spear
kind fiber
Ideally with the rapid attack upgrade, with the spears rapid thrust upgrade and the ammo count + attack speed rail upgrade
Have you played since the patch Sparrow?
pastel jolt
yes
kind fiber
Isn't it like 11 damage for an epic Zeus attack boon?
pastel jolt
i know it's 7 for a rare
upbeat junco
5 for normal 7 for rare probs 9 for epic
kind fiber
Haven't seen one since the patched it but that doesn't seem great
pastel jolt
the spear does 15 damage on a hit
upbeat junco
and it scales up 3 damage per pom
pastel jolt
you have to take into consideration the multi-target part of the boon
kind fiber
Okay, so its doing around the same damage as Athena's boon which also grants deflection
pastel jolt
it's not just 7 extra damage to the one you're hitting, it's 7 extra damage to the guy next to them as well
kind fiber
Sure, Athena's boon will increase that damage as well,
pastel jolt
when i'm trying to strip death insures off a bunch of enemies, that comes in handy, and it's also a decent source of damage when i really, really can't afford to stop and spin or special
kind fiber
so long as it was hit originally
pastel jolt
athena's boon doesn't do aoe damage
pastel jolt
well if you're going to get that persnickety about the definition of aoe damage
upbeat junco
Yea using Zeus to strip the death insurance is really good, but after that it does really minimal damage to everything
Spear does the massive circle aoe as well
pastel jolt
look, when i'm dealing with enemies that do 500% damage, i don't want to be the idiot that stands there charging up a spin attack that won't even do any damage because i haven't hit anything yet
upbeat junco
shield bounces like charge lightning etc
Every weapon can hit multiple enemies with one attack except the rail unless you upgrade with piercing
So Zeus attack was extremely helpful in that regard
But yes i do still think Zeus before was really overpowered since I got a 12 minutes 60 heat run when I got the legendary with it
12-13 mins
pastel jolt
zeus attack absolutely was overpowered before
it tripled your damage output on spear if you got it on rare epic
i'm tired, that's an epic boon
my point stands
upbeat junco
Yea but nobody mentioned how overpowered it was (that I saw) until the rail came out. I think Zeus attack with spear was high risk high reward playstyle because you have to get really close. That might be why it wasn't nerfed until last patch
Also does anyone know how many times you can upgrade reroll tokens
forest marsh
I don't think it was uncommon knowledge that zeus attack on weapons with rapid attacks was OP before
pastel jolt
that's what a darkness sink is for
forest marsh
SG was tired of everyone complaining about having too many resources 
lost rose
I was absolutely using Zeus on bow before and destroying everything lol
it's been OP for a while
I wasn't complaining though because it made grinding heat easier
upbeat junco
Bow is my main and I never used Zeus on it because I thought bow was too slow to make full use of Zeus
pastel jolt
god, zeus attack with rapid shot bow must have been impressive, shame i never got around to trying it
upbeat junco
Actually now that you mention it there is rapid shot, I never used that because it lowered damage during that patch and now it doesn't power shot
forest marsh
It didn't power shot before either, they've just made mention of it explicitly now
But they did remove the damage debuff, which is nice
pastel jolt
rapid shot + artemis attack = 💖
autumn tapir
I mentioned the zeus spear a lot
pastel jolt
zeus spear was my go-to for "i just want to have fun wrecking things with lightning"
upbeat junco
To me power shot seems like a pretty essential part of the bows damage and thats why I didn't pick rapid
autumn tapir
welp I'm attempting the hydra with a level 6 aphrodite spear attack, epic athena cast, and pretty much nothing else
upbeat junco
good luck
forest marsh
Good luck, Doc!
atomic panther
I got Zeus with Flurry Blade once and I got to the hydra with it (didn't beat it bc I was on 60 Heat with no healing)
upbeat junco
in one of my runs while I was using the rail I went to reload and I pressed right trigger while standing on a infernal gate which made it attempt to reroll it. But the stupid thing is, it actually rerolled the gate before the room was over and I didn't see what was through the gate originally.
Fortunately it rerolled into a pom, but unfortunately I got hit inside
forest marsh
Yeah, having re-roll bound to the same key as reload by default is... not great
upbeat junco
Yea I use controller and I think it'd be better on the shoulder button instead of trigger
upbeat junco
Left trigger is being used
forest marsh
upbeat junco
its the boon info menu
forest marsh
Oh, boon info. Yes. Duh. Sorry, I was thinking Codex 
autumn tapir
oh wow I did it
forest marsh
Though Codex could just as well be like, select or something
upbeat junco
ah yea right true
pastel jolt
i mean, the far easier solution would probably just be to..... disable rerolling before a room is finished?
upbeat junco
Thats probs the beset
forest marsh
That too, but I've accidentally rerolled after a room is finished 'cause I was messing around
autumn tapir
forest marsh
Conga rats, Doc!
autumn tapir
basically I just threw all my casts at a head and stayed just outside of its attack range so it couldn't surprise slam me, working from the right to the left
I found a spot where the main head's shots will just collide with terrain and you can just safely poke
forest marsh
Hmm, in the Controls it's just Gift & Misc, presumably the Misc being Re-roll
It would be nice if Gift was separate from reroll, if just for ultimate customization purposes
pastel jolt
y'know, i never could get the hang of untouchable thrust; i wonder if extending jab is much different
autumn tapir
extending jab makes it longer
pastel jolt
untouchable thrust also did that
grim loom
epic-rank urge to kill crossed off by tenebrous veil? feelsbadman
smoky spoke
Does anyone have any advice on dodging Megara's spin shoot attack??? It's always the attack to get me ^.^
forest marsh
Depends on what weapon you're running. but if all else fails just back off and it will be easy to just walk to avoid the projectiles
If using a weapon with a ranged attack, stick to a medium range and your ranged attack should be able to hit Meg, destroy the projectiles, and refresh your ability to attack again before new projectiles hit you
May take some trial and error to find the correct range
If you get far enough away, the projectiles just die out too and no dodging is required
smoky spoke
Alright thanks! I'll keep that in mind when I fight her!
pearl willow
lol, got the attack speed increase + ammo increase hammer upgrade for exagryph and now i have the artemis legendary spawning an additional projectile on attack. outstanding.
spare tinsel
I just got two Charon rooms in a row and it occurred to me that that's never happened before (in my experience)
is that supposed to be a possibility?
free healing, but seems kinda weird
near seal
Could someone tell me the requirements for Artemis's legendary?
lost rose
you need hide breaker or clean kill first, each of which needs deadly strike, deadly flourish, OR pressure points
near seal
ah thanks
errant narwhal
@plain heron your feedback about skullcrushers not being fun enemies has been submitted before so I’m deleting it, please vote on the first one! You can find it by searching “stompers” in the feedback channel.
keen badger
Honestly, I don't pay that much attention to the damage numbers so I could be totally off about this assumption, but I don't think Zeus' over all damage was the problem, I think they just forgot to account for how it would scale when they increased attack speeds and added that enormous AOE attack with the gun, and festive fog
I realise it's a lot more work than just reducing the damage but I think what they really should have done was rework how damage is distributed, when using AOE attacks vs direct single-target attacks
Just posted that in the discussion thread because people were discussing the Zeus nerf but I figured it really should go in this one
worn owl
hitting a wall on 120 heat runs, still haven't got to hydra yet on them
losing most of my health to brimstones
Maybe I just need to use my cast more
night pasture
use every part of the buffalo, says me, a person who hasn't done over a 20 heat run
wintry moon
I've only completed a 30 heat run, just popped it into the most harmless stats
though I must say I really dislike myself for also choosing the blue hearts one
proud storm
it's technically one of of the most harmless stats as you said but the thought of having to hit something two additional times is hell
pastel jolt
question: which god to choose first
i really, really want an attack-boosting boon, but i can't work out if blight wine or criticals would be more beneficial
forest marsh
For choosing first I'd pick Dio
pastel jolt
considering the spear attacks fairly quickly i ought to get a lot of crits
forest marsh
Then you won't get Blighted during the fight
pastel jolt
i'm running 500% enemy damage, it's going to hurt regardless of which one hits me :P
forest marsh
But Blight will be worse cause you get hit but you also get DoT
errant narwhal
hmmm I’d pick artemis
proud storm
id pick dio first bc if you take dio's attack boon artemis will only have upgrades like clean kill or pressure points and the like
pastel jolt
never mind, i died anyway
proud storm
L
radiant grove
whats the longest hydra streak anybody has gotten?
forest marsh
Are you asking our personal streaks? I know there are people with dozens or more on their streak, but my own is I think 5
radiant grove
mines 2 currently
turbid needle
my personal is 9 i think... and its rn so counting (hopefully)
radiant grove
imagine having a run with every boon at epic and the legendaries how cool would that be?
errant narwhal
yeah my best is also 2
radiant grove
one shot hydra with bow?
errant narwhal
lol i did get that
i showed you already didnt i, it was my first run in the new patch
errant narwhal
oh
radiant grove
it isnt possible but it would be very cool imo
like having a training mode or smth
atomic panther
It would be nice to be able to test boons against Skelly, though maybe hard to implement
pastel jolt
wish me luuuuuck~
i didn't get splitting bolt, which would have been nice :c
i would've gotten if if i hadn't caved and taken zeus dash
worn owl
that's a lot of defiances
forest marsh
Good luck!