h1-builds-and-combat

[forest marsh]

I don't have a holiday tomorrow, if that makes you feel any better (?) ven

[drifting hemlock]

I'll sleep for 4-5 hours and then go straight to the shower and then bench a million cups of coffee! Bam! Renewed daily rythm here i come! (Inb4 i sleep 12 hours...)

[mellow aurora]

@errant narwhal if you can make it to where you take zero damage from lava then that just offsets the entire balance in asphodel

in that case its op

im talking about the athena boon that lowers trap damage btw

[worn fulcrum]

Lava damage ramps over time, so you're never 100% safe from it

[forest marsh]

Sure you are, if you get the boon to 100%

[errant narwhal]

you are, at 92% sure footing

[lost rose]

athena like "your feet look a little more burnt than usual, can i help with that"

[worn fulcrum]

huh, are you sure? i could have sworn i was still taking damage from it

[lost rose]

joke's on us, she just gave zag some shoes

[worn fulcrum]

but i could be wrong

[errant narwhal]

maybe it was fixed

Dino has a clip somewhere or just chilling in lava for a minute or so with 92% sure footing

[lost rose]

hahahaha

i wonder if the amount of damage the lava does over time is based on how much damage it did previously

in which case reducing the initial damage to almost 0 would make it so you don't really take any more

even if it continuously ramps up

[forest marsh]

I would be exceedingly surprised if it was coded that way

[lost rose]

i mean i would be too, but i'm just trying to think of a reason, y'know

[forest marsh]

They're usually pretty good about mentioning alterations, even minor ones. I doubt they would have changed it without making a note in the patch notes... I don't recall anything about Sure Footing being modified, though my memory could be off

Looks like the only change was "normalizing" the base power level in Patch 006

[lost rose]

i found lava tile and trap info but it doesn't say anything abt the damage

in the scripts

gonna keep hunting

[errant narwhal]

normalizing could also mean it no longer has the chance to start with 91% damage reduction

[forest marsh]

Yeah, that's my thought as well

[lost rose]

    {
        IgnoreInvulnerabilityFrameTrigger = true,```
hahaha pics that make you go "oof"

[autumn tapir]

[forest marsh]

That was to deal with the Athena legendary, right?

[lost rose]

No I think it's for damage I-frames in general

i've noticed i sometimes get invulnerability briefly these days after i take damage

i don't remember what damage specifically

[forest marsh]

Ooooh, right, that

I think they mentioned that in the patch notes? Or maybe I'm just remembering something from feedback

https://discordapp.com/channels/456889434672201729/520688884011499520/522919076629184512 Nope, it was patch notes

TL;DR

+ Slightly longer player invulnerability after taking heavy damage

[lost rose]

lava don't care about your i frames

[autumn tapir]

probably so that Louts don't delete you

[lost rose]

long story short i can't find the damage values for lava

[forest marsh]

Yeah, not sure what constitutes heavy damage, or if it's cumulative over time or single hit

I decided to take a look out of curiosity after you, ven, and stumbled across [redacted, data mined information] lava related trap

[lost rose]

hahaha i don't know what you could be looking at

maybe i'm just avoiding things that look like spoilers, oops

but yeah i've found trap data and lava data but no damage modifiers

[mellow aurora]

remember a lot of people were complaining about getting stun locked by hydras fast projectile needles so they introduced that kind of invulnerability

@forest marsh

[forest marsh]

I'm reasonably certain that change I quoted was before the changes to address Hydra stunlock, but I could be mistaken

[tulip timber]

They also changed how Hydra needles worked significantly.

[mellow aurora]

i personally think its kinda crude to introduce another mechanic than rather changing the ability

how did they change the needles?

[tulip timber]

You can break them now.

And deflect them.

[mellow aurora]

oh yeah that

[tulip timber]

That change single-handedly made bow special many times more useful to me.

[forest marsh]

It's interesting that they don't seem to list damage amounts for anything in the Scripts... Lots of other info, though

[mellow aurora]

idk

btw the no hit hades challenge is soooo tough

ill clear rooms without taking damage easily, but when i see the purple tint i just choke lol

[lost rose]

god, yeah

it's the pressure

knowing dad will laugh at you and you'll lose your boon 😖

[forest marsh]

Press pause, breathe a few times, unpause 👍

[lost rose]

zag deserves a pause button

[worn fulcrum]

Holy crap, I didn't realize the damage on new Hunter Dash was so high

Even with it resetting to its base value when entering a new room, it feels incredible

[mellow aurora]

yeah dude its great

did anyone try the "any damage you do has a chance to do crit damage" before it was nerfed? its base for rare was 30% chance. it was hilariously good

it was an athena boon

[wide stratus]

yes!!! i remember that

[forest marsh]

Yeah, it was good. I liked the old Hunter Dash guaranteed crit more, but the first change was fine

Hunter Dash becoming a replacement for Quick Temper is still nice, though

Too bad it doesn't work with the spin-dash anymore

[mellow aurora]

yeah

i missed quick temper so im very accepting of it becoming the new artemis dash, although someone mentioned a perfect dodge mechanic for the artemis dash which could have been interesting

[forest marsh]

You mean as a suggestion?

[mellow aurora]

if you dashed at the right timing you could get bonus damage or garanteed crit hit on the next attack

yeah it was a suggestion

[forest marsh]

That could be interesting, but I don't think it fits with the otherwise guaranteed nature of the boons

That would be better as just a regular game mechanic like power shot, in my opinion

[wide stratus]

I just started out with the bow for a run, should i get triple shot or rapid shot? Im not used to this weapon 😖

[forest marsh]

Triple Shot

[wide stratus]

Okay (´ᗜ`)

[dense folio]

I like this game.

[worn fulcrum]

Hunter Dash, Sweet Surrender, Aphrodite attack, Chaos attack, and Triple Shot

Dang that was a fast Hydra kill

[forest marsh]

Glad to hear it, Moose! I quite like it too

[worn fulcrum]

Backstabs at point blank against enemies with cast in them did 1800 damage

[mellow aurora]

rapid shot bow is my favorite weapon buff that and sword flurry

attacking quickly in this game is super good, especially one very high heat runs. you may kill everything at a slower pace but, you have way more opportunities to attack and dodge

[willow kindle]

Sorry for askin, but what is 'heat' 'heat run' and how to check that?

[tired pivot]

Heat is a new meta resource unlocked when you unlock Path of Punishment and used to increase Path of Punishment levels.

[willow kindle]

I think I must slay hydra once for that right?

[cold oriole]

got double legendary boons for the first time ever lol

so strong

[mellow aurora]

@willow kindle yep

[median spruce]

Hey anyone know the significance (if any) of a "perfect landing" when you start a run?

[lost rose]

Just for fun, I'm pretty sure!

[quartz chasm]

I just got a no hit room with Artemis boon as reward. God that was stressful.

[turbid needle]

https://gyazo.com/88890420d76aabf57ad356791ad2aeb9 pog

[still pewter]

How do you "perfect land"

[lost rose]

I think it's random

[worn fulcrum]

I have three Roiling boons active right now

I'm a little scared

74% more enemies, 30% more enemies, 76% more enemies

[lost rose]

oh god

good....good luck

[analog crystal]

Perfect land isnt random? You have to use the dash button a lil bit before you land, ive become pretty good at getting it in 1 dash but u can just spam dash to get it

[lost rose]

oh sweet!

[analog crystal]

It'd be nice if it acc did something tho hahaha

[lost rose]

i didn't know 😮 the last time i heard anyone talking about it nobody knew why it happened

[analog crystal]

Nah its using dash at the beginning before your run

[worn fulcrum]

update: the next room had like fifty brimstones

[analog crystal]

Sounds amazing, any heat?

6 damage brimstones get me more than id like to admit lel

[worn fulcrum]

50 heat

I died after taking a fifth Blood Gate

[heavy remnant]

is the shield double bash a bug or a feature?

like, if you dodge you can link 2 shield atacks in succession

[flint totem]

God I hate the artemis dash bug right now

[willow kindle]

i'd reroll that from start:D

[livid kraken]

@heavy remnant It's a feature. Every melee weapon works like that

[still pewter]

@plush shell on your feedback post you're talking about the small "bite attack" that the hydra does yes?

I also find it quite frustrating

[plush shell]

I think it might be.

They kinda just move around very slightly and Zag gets hurt.

[still pewter]

yeah that's the one

the windup is reaaaally brief. really harsh on melee

[plush shell]

I do feel like the slam is maybe a bit big too - the spear isn't long enough to outrange it, for some reason.

[still pewter]

it doesnt do much damage, but it kinda feels like you got cheated

I think the slam is fine, since it has a long telegraph

[serene isle]

Icathios

[still pewter]

ye

[serene isle]

Im sorry

https://i.imgur.com/PxFmWfV.jpg

[still pewter]

he never learns

[serene isle]

What can I do when the game offers me Curse of Pain at epic level

[still pewter]

play sword, idk

haha

[plush shell]

Curse of Agony/Pain is really damn good.

[serene isle]

Play sword OR keep streak

IDK which is more important

[willow kindle]

@serene isle so spammin 'q' worked with hydra?)

[serene isle]

Is Q special?

[willow kindle]

yep.

(?)

[serene isle]

I re-binded it to Right Click

must be why

LOL

And yes.

[plush shell]

Hah.

[serene isle]

It totes works VS hydra

[willow kindle]

I went with maximizing main attack

[plush shell]

Would be pretty okay with the heads wouldn't it?

[willow kindle]

and always losing because of luck of aoe

guess time to try special build

[serene isle]

IDK how to show this

wait

[plush shell]

It feels like Ares' Curse shouldn't be this good tbh. Even if he is the god of war etc. https://imgur.com/a/cyPEUF2

[obtuse merlin]

Ares builds seem a lot more powerful now with pact stuff, so useful for breaking shields

Are w shield special works pretty well

[willow kindle]

+1

[obtuse merlin]

Zues' cast is also v good vs pact shields

synergizes well with pretty much any build

[plush shell]

Ares' Curse should probably have a longer timer to be honest. It's barely longer than most attack speeds.

[obtuse merlin]

why?

[plush shell]

Because the timer is intended to be the downside to having such a big damage bonus, no?

[serene isle]

Here you go, friend. https://i.imgur.com/XcAhpMk.png

If the Hydra is alone, you basically freebie it. If it gets near, just dash down once from the pillar then dash back up after he head stomps.

[tardy iris]

honestly, if they were to increase the timer of it, I would rather they rework it, it was easily the worst one when it had a long timer imo

[plush shell]

I only just started, I don't know what the timer used to be sadly.

How long was it?

[still pewter]

so I got this bug atm. you know when you cast zag sort of recoils and takes a tiny step back

[worn fulcrum]

The downside, I think, is not synergizing with backstabs and not being able to deflect or knockback or weaken

[tardy iris]

I think it was 2 seconds before the change

[still pewter]

well, when I cast, I yeet myself halfway across the hydra arena

[tardy iris]

maybe 1 and a half

[serene isle]

Icathios, is feature

[still pewter]

not very convenient when on a cast build

[willow kindle]

Personally i've almost beaten that stone snake with reflecting blade rift dashes and casts

[worn fulcrum]

That, and even if you're hitting even twice per curse with the spear or sword or whatever the delay still matters

[serene isle]

Yeah. Shield Throw is slow enough that it's just a straight-up damage upgrade

[obtuse merlin]

I think the effect is interesting though

its a bout raw damage single hit

which is still larger with other boons

vs multiple hits and its effects on armor and pact armor

like sword chop w massive damage is severely nerfed in this respect because of the rework of armor

[still pewter]

oof, almost lost my streak to that

although I gotta kill the streak sometime. gotta get on those skylly statues

[serene isle]

I can only imagine how hard pact armor is for melee weapons

[obtuse merlin]

flurry is very viable

flurry + zues is quite powerful

[still pewter]

yeah, high heat is really hard with melee

ppl almost always go bow/spear

[worn fulcrum]

Hunter Dash is crazy with bow now

It's stronger than old Hunter Dash

[serene isle]

Icathios, obviously I just need to get to 120 heat myself and show that you can finnagle Shield Throw Spam

[pastel jolt]

man, looking at the victory screen just makes me wish the text would wrap a teeny bit better,,

[obtuse merlin]

@worn fulcrum how come?

[pastel jolt]

fun fact

the chaos boons where if you do a certain action you take damage?

can't actually kill you

[lost rose]

oh damn

[pastel jolt]

this knowledge brought to you by my terrible decision to take "-1 hp whenever you dash" on a bow build and coming out on the murder boat

[lost rose]

so they just make it much much more likely that you'll die but like, if you're very good and very lucky, maybe not.

[pastel jolt]

😬

[lost rose]

gfkjgdf chaos just pulling all the punches at the last second like i know i said i had to do it to em, but i changed my mind actually

[pastel jolt]

i spent the entire final wave of the murderboat at 1hp

and amazingly enough, didn't actually die

[grand patrol]

maybe i wont do it to em.

hfjfj i gota draw chaos in The Pose now huh

[lost rose]

i guess you gotta do it to them

[pastel jolt]

my hubris will be my downfall

[grand patrol]

i gotta do it to them....

[pastel jolt]

only one encounter left and then i will get that sweet sweet attack bonus though ;3;

lmao and it's a no-hit challenge too

[wide stratus]

u can do it!!

[pastel jolt]

okay, knowledge gained: self-damage from chaos boon does NOT void a no-hit challenge

[wide stratus]

also i came to ask for advice
how do u guys deal with large mobs with the bow? i have so much trouble with managing large batch of enemies with it

[grand patrol]

hades: i dont know why youre hitting yourself but ok

[lost rose]

tbh i think lava shouldn't either because you just KNOW hades loves it when you accidentally hurt yourself.

[wide stratus]

is it just. practice and praying for the best

[lost rose]

yes

dash a lot

[grand patrol]

YEAH. YEAH LAVA SHOULDNT COUNT

[lost rose]

the dash actually stuns enemies now

if you dash through them

[plush shell]

Only without a power, isn't it?

[lost rose]

and they're unarmored

yeah

[wide stratus]

sheds one (1) tear

[plush shell]

Which is kinda weird but yeah, it helps.

[wide stratus]

ok... i will... train more

[plush shell]

Not sure why you lose the ability to buffet a foe on getting a dash boon.

It'd make something like Ares' dash more useful.

[pastel jolt]

SHOWTIME

[lost rose]

oh lord sparrow

[pastel jolt]

i really, really wish i'd taken point-blank shot instead of triple shot

can you imagine the tomfoolery of an extra 200% to up-close enemies

[lost rose]

but if you can get all 3 arrows into an enemy that's a lot of damage too

[pastel jolt]

anyway time to go get murdered~

[plush blaze]

you got this

[pastel jolt]

who am i kidding i'm using the bow on hydra and i have more damage than god

[opaque wolf]

(plsignoretextpost)

[lost rose]

more damage than god is a fantastic way to put it

[opaque wolf]

i cant post screenshots

[lost rose]

gotta upload to another site and post links

[opaque wolf]

i broke the game

https://imgur.com/a/h0GXiaR

[pastel jolt]

This Is Fine

[opaque wolf]

there's like 4 more boons up there

[lost rose]

hey you healed some!

yeah lol if you get too many boons it still goes off the screen...they'll fix it. eventually.

[plush shell]

Two of the jars in the arena have healing goodies in them.

[pastel jolt]

6 HP LAST CHANCE THIS IS FINE

[lost rose]

yeah but-- YEAH

[opaque wolf]

you can heal ?

[pastel jolt]

already chomped those

[lost rose]

i figured thats where the health came from lol

[pastel jolt]

funnily enough the biggest threat to me rn is the main head's projectiles

i have two heads left to deal with and they're a stompy and a spitty so i don't take damage from those unless i play dumb

it's the projectiles that'll kill me if i'm not careful

i lied

[green musk]

Man, the heat challenges are kinda lame.

[pastel jolt]

#moredamagethangod

[green musk]

Unles you just want to pump 60 heat into damage taken

every enemy becomes a sponge

[grand patrol]

OH SPAROW CONGRATS

[pastel jolt]

i was doing about 400-ish damage per power shot arrow

18th hydra kill~

[green musk]

Get 25 for the entry

😛

[opaque wolf]

noice

[green musk]

Like

if you max more enemies per encounter

and you get armored numbskulls with +2 shielding

it's so tedious

Like, it isn't hard fighting the same three enemies over and over.

it's obnoxious

[opaque wolf]

grindy

[green musk]

yeh

The only way to make it really challenging is doing no-hit runs.

And trying to avoid the boat fight.

I only trust myself to reliably take no damage on the boat if I'm using stygius with super nova.

Otherwise there's always that sneaky bloodyless

[opaque wolf]

sheilded bloody

makes me cry

[pastel jolt]

fun trivia fact i keep trying to call the bloodless the boneless

🅱oneless

[lost rose]

🅱oneless 🅱ombers

[opaque wolf]

🅱 onefull tbh

[grand patrol]

bloodless...boneles....just no enemy there

[pastel jolt]

hey, when did it change so that you can hear orpheus singing if you're in the courtyard?

[muffled not looking back intensifies]

[grand patrol]

he took voice lessons so he can sing louder now

[lost rose]

I noticed that too!!! it's a neat touch

[patent ibex]

A quick question for people who are keeping up with the developers, has there been any mention of the upgrade system? One of my biggest no-no in games such as this one is the permanent upgrades = increase in base power.

If you look at a game like Dead Cells or Gungeon, when you unlock upgrades most of the time you get more weapons or options unlocked for you, but it doesn't change your base level, you still hit for the same amount and you still have the same basic stats, but in a game like Rogue Legacy or Hades as it seems right now, there is a huge difference between the base character and after X runs when you upgrade a ton of stuff, which makes the game a must grind rather than a fun option

[plush blaze]

I hope it's something they keep in mind. The amount of permanent upgrades is probably my main criticism atm

[stable oyster]

You can just not use mirror

[lost rose]

I haven't found it super grindy so far because each run has been a lot of fun and there are tons of options for making each run unique even when you get your butt handed to you

[patent ibex]

@plush blaze Did they say anything about it?

[plush blaze]

Haven't heard anything, no

[patent ibex]

Ichoren if the game is built around it than you have to use it

[lost rose]

No, they haven't said anything about it but considering the role the mirror has played so far and its significance to Zag and Nyx I can't imagine it's going away

[stable oyster]

No you don’t

No mirror runs are a thing

I do them all the time

[plush blaze]

This conversation again

[lost rose]

The game's also unfinished
So, like

[patent ibex]

@lost rose I dont think it should be removed, but I just dislike this type of upgrade system, I think upgrades are important for these types of games since it keeps it fresh, but not in a way where its a huge power increase compared to base level

[lost rose]

At the end of the day it could turn out to be a reasonable level of grind for the length of the game, + there are other incentives besides power level in each run

[stable oyster]

Try the darkness limiter pact

[patent ibex]

@stable oyster The game is built around you upgrading stuff, there is no shame it it. needing to hit a boss 50 times when you are without upgrades vs 10 time when you have are viable options, I just dislike it

Its just that it feels satisfying knowing you beat the game because you improved, rather than because you grinded enough and got 5x times the damage an 3x times the HP you had when you started

[stable oyster]

50 vs 10 is an exaggeration it’s not as bad as you think

[patent ibex]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXEQ8VBqXBY

[pastel jolt]

okay, but what about when it's both

[stable oyster]

Try it out

[lost rose]

Yeah and like GMT says there are other incentives besides the perma upgrades

[patent ibex]

Watch this video, it explains it in a fantastic way IMO

[lost rose]

He gives Hades as a positive example

Of working around a permanent upgrade system

[patent ibex]

It shows that there are other ways of making an unlock and upgrade system besides power creep

Hades has that working great, but the problem is that it has the power creep right along side the lore unlock

Which is what ruins it

[lost rose]

GMT didn't seem to think so

[patent ibex]

Im not saying he doesnt think the game is great

It looks great

But the unlock system is built around making the game easier and lowering the difficulty curve, just like in Rogue Legacy

[stable oyster]

Have you done any pact runs? I think those might be what you’re looking for

[lost rose]

Yeah, SGG games have always had modifiable difficulty

games are, like, supposed to get easier as you get better at them

[stable oyster]

300% dmg is a lot

[lost rose]

A good boon loadout can carry a player without much technical skill to victory right now anyways, even without using more than just the triple dash from the mirror

things like the backstab damage are more like icing

a bunch of mirror upgrades that were too strong already got nerfed

[stable oyster]

Yea exactly mirror is optional, no one is forcing you to make the game easier

[still pewter]

gmt did showcase the mirror at the end as a meta-progression system that boosts power

[stable oyster]

If you chose not to use it, there is no permanent progression

[still pewter]

mark didn't verbally discribe it, it displayed on the screen tho

the "don't use it" argument doesn't hold much ground imo

[stable oyster]

How so?

[lost rose]

yeah, I thought the textual implication was despite having meta-progression, which, again, also plays into the story of Zag getting stronger and trying to strike out on his own, there are other things that entice you back to the House and alleviate the grind

[still pewter]

for a couple of reasons

[lost rose]

We're all jaded because we've been playing the game longer than it's meant to be played at this point lol

[still pewter]

for example I don't like the mirror, I actually don't. I'm going to use myself as an example

first, even if I don't like it, I'm still going to use it. It's part of the mentality games have been planting in us for years. if it's there it's meant to be used, and I don't want to stifle my experience by keeping distance from the designs of the game

the pacts are a good way to promote this while not breaking the immersion and telling you: yes, we the designers feel like this is ok for our game. it is within our vision

I play the game for what it is, not for what it isn't

[stable oyster]

But if you hate it, avoiding it doesn’t ruin your experience

[patent ibex]

@stable oyster If the game is built around it than it is

[stable oyster]

It’s built in to be optional

The game isn’t

[patent ibex]

The devs set a particular power level for the game built around this mirror and the upgrades

I can finish Mario Brothers blindfolded if I am good enough, does that mean the game isn't built around the visuals?

[stable oyster]

The built the difficulty to be variable, just look at pacts

[patent ibex]

There is a certain level of balance that the devs strive for, they want you to go out and die a bunch in order to get stronger so you can venture forward

[stable oyster]

But you just said earlier that the mirror made it too easy for you

[patent ibex]

I didn't say it made it to easy, I just say I dislike the part of a game that forces me to grind in order to get better reasults

[stable oyster]

This isn’t about what the devs want you to do, it’s about what you enjoy as a player

[patent ibex]

The game is built around it

[stable oyster]

But you don’t like it, right

[patent ibex]

I can handicap myself by not using the mirror like I can do it any other game by not using certain elements

But if its there the game is built around using it, you can't just ignore it and say thats it

[still pewter]

I dunno. if I'm collecting darkness and keys in half my rooms, I won't like it if I don't have anywhere to spend those resources

I also don't think whoever proposed the feedback on the mirror actually doesn't enjoy power upgrades. much like me, I suspect they are against the design itself

[patent ibex]

I really think upgrades should be limited diversity rather than blatant power creeps, thats all I think

otherwise the game becomes a grind for raw stats and number

[stable oyster]

But you 100% can, you don’t need to use it if it’s there. You are saying it has a negative impact but you still keep opting in.

[still pewter]

I suppose it is a very subjective matter

[patent ibex]

They have so many great incentives for you to grind and return already, the mirror just isn't someting I enjoy

Like Icathios says, doesn't mean its bad

[still pewter]

I love the game, and I enjoy it a lot. I still dislike the design and I will provide feedback against it

[patent ibex]

Certain people enjoy those type of upgrades, I personally don't

[lost rose]

i'm ok with it for its narrative implications if nothing else

[stable oyster]

Like would you pick the easy difficulty bc it’s there and then say the game is too easy

I’m just trying to understand

[still pewter]

again, not the same. the mirror is a part of the world, it's a system that immerses you in the characters (nyx) and the resources(darkness) of the world

[stable oyster]

But they just said they dislike it

[patent ibex]

Have you seen the GMT Video?

[still pewter]

again, I'm probably too exteme/ too much of a purist in the matter

[stable oyster]

How about this, if you don’t like the mirror, start a new file and just try not using it for a while

[patent ibex]

Look at the part about Rogue Legacy, it explains it perfectly

[stable oyster]

Just see

[harsh ridge]

Anyone else encounter a bug with Hunter Dash? I got an Epic variant for 147% bonus dash attack damage but the list of Boons only lists 100%

[still pewter]

it's a known issue

[lost rose]

Yeah, one of the devs was in here talking about it earlier

[opal ravine]

Hades progression is wildly different from Rogue Legacy

[lost rose]

they know what the issue is so it'll probably be fixed before long

[still pewter]

still, we're talking about aspects of the mirror pascy

and the idea of power boosting meta-progression systems

[opal ravine]

Hades has meta progression down real well in my opinion

[still pewter]

what do you mean

[reef iris]

@patent ibex @stable oyster
Guys, let me show you something

1. Let's assume, that I'm experienced roguelike player. I'll finish the game in 10-15 attempts (with or without mirror does not really matters, cause number of attempts is low) and will add some challenges to myself (no boons/no mirror runs and so on).
2. Let's assume, I'm not really good at games/roguelikes. I will finish in 30+ attempts with mirror half+ filled. So, the game designed to help me by empowering me through mirror's upgardes. To make it easier within game mechanics. It is not roguelikish at all, imo. And kinda steal my feel of accomplishment, because it's not me, who became better, it is game mechanics, which made me overpowered to that point

[wary parrot]

anyone have porblem with wieving his boons when u have 15 boons/effects?

[opal ravine]

Unlike Rogue you can't just brute force a victory via upgrades

[still pewter]

yeah @ darkcoin it can be abit clustered

[lost rose]

@wary parrot Yeah, boons run off the screen sometimes. It's a known issue but I'm not sure it's very high priority

[wary parrot]

thanks guys

[reef iris]

@opal ravine you can in Hades XD

[harsh ridge]

all righty thanks

[opal ravine]

The upgrades of the mirror are fairly marginal, when they added the new health increase I was surprised because to me that was in stark contrast to the rest of the mirror upgrades

[wary parrot]

oh and do hunter dash still downgrade to common?

[still pewter]

yes

[wary parrot]

:c

[patent ibex]

@reef iris I agree with point 2, and thats my view of the game

[still pewter]

I wouldn't call it marginal. +dashes+backstab+boon rariry+death defiance

[lost rose]

the health increase is wild. that is too much imo

[stable oyster]

But if you never fill the mirror you will never get that feeling, so if you dislike it just refund darkness. Or you could even do one more run with pacts or no mirror to prove that it was you @reef iris

[patent ibex]

But I simply cannot just straight out ignore a whole game mechanic "for the challange"

[lost rose]

It also....it like. Idk how long it took you guys to max out the mirror

[stable oyster]

You can

[lost rose]

But it's taken me like

80+ runs

[patent ibex]

Like I said, maybe its just my issue, but thats what I think

[lost rose]

So...

[still pewter]

I still haven't maxed it out

[lost rose]

Again consider that we're playing this game way more than it has content for right now

And that the final pacing could be very, very different

[opal ravine]

I'm at like 60 runs and I'm currently grinding out the boon chance percentages

[reef iris]

@patent ibex not only yours at least XD

[wary parrot]

i have 30+ runs and i have evrything maxed except gold and rarity of boons

[still pewter]

yeah. again, I do believe this is a debate on design. not on how one can have their own fun

[opal ravine]

doesn't help that Asphodel plummets in darkness gain

[stable oyster]

Just bc you don’t want to doesn’t mean the option isn’t there, I think your issue might be that the optional progression is to in your face, correct?

[opal ravine]

you get like 100 average in Tarturus and then Asphodel you're lucky to get 20

[still pewter]

true @ pascy. darkness should be harder to get post chaos update

also makes nyx keepsake really bad in ashphodel

[opal ravine]

hydra not dropping darkness is a bummer too

[still pewter]

I dunno ichoren. I'd still appreciate it if the mirror gave me new ways to enjoy the game, adding more variety, over making me stronger

yeah, used to drop 30 darkness too. big chunk

[stable oyster]

I think weapons will fill that role in the final game

They just don’t have all of them yet

[still pewter]

weapons and keepsakes are such a system. I unlock more ways to enjoy the game

[stable oyster]

Yea

[still pewter]

I'd like more systems like those. honestly I actually don't hate the mirror, even if it sounds like I do. I just think it's the less fun of the 2 alternatives. I think it could be better.

[stable oyster]

I understand

[still pewter]

maybe it's good to have both types of systems. maybe it's good to provide non-roguelike funs (but ssg fans) the option to gradually make the game easier

at the same time, I don't really think sgg is pandering to anyone

[willow kindle]

@opaque wolf won't even ask you how did you do it. just picked all the boons without upgrading them + shop?)

[opaque wolf]

yeah xd

[stable oyster]

Combine those 2 with pacts and anyone can tailor the game to their exact preference

[willow kindle]

@serene isle tested out your shield-special-ares build. quite funny. cleared all the way to hydra without any problems .lel

[opal ravine]

the chance upgrades for the boons is my biggest issue, feels like the maxed out upgrades are where the game should be at and you're just unlocking the fun

[willow kindle]

Hyrda projectiles is not a problem , but her head slam is

it's like. covers ALL the zone

[opaque wolf]

tons of double boons

[plush shell]

Hydra bite feels the worst.

[still pewter]

again, I'd like to challenge the notion of tailoring the game/difficulty to one's preference. aren't games fun because they present a challenge, and you through your wits and skills overcome that challenge? If I'm tweaking the difficulty on demand, it feels like I'm going against this whole concept. again, many people won't have a problem with this. It's an interesting debate nonetheless

@/Muggins#0658 big agree

again,

I should stop using again so much

[willow kindle]

I'd like the challenge 😃 Have smth around 35-40 runs and Hydra is still alive. I've also just opened the boons rarity option in mirror. Guess things would go much funnier now!

[stable oyster]

If you tweak the game to be harder then you can handle you get the opposite effect

Before heat I got burnt out with the game bc I just eon every time

Now I actually die to meg sometimes just bc of heat

[still pewter]

with systems like that, it's hard to convey to the player what's the "proper way to play" is. you might argue that there is no such a thing, but it makes a difference in how much satisfaction one gets from the game.

at this point, I think I'm taking the debate a bit too far

[stable oyster]

Np np

[still pewter]

let me use an example on how games can create "easy modes" without compromising the core experience the developers are considering "the proper way to play"

have you by chance played celeste?

[stable oyster]

I would argue that there is no exactly proper way to play. Different players like different things, and sgg gives you options

No unfortunately not

More of an XCOM guy when I want difficulty

[still pewter]

celeste is a pretty hard game. not too hard, but it is meant to be played by people who are a bit experienced

a child or an older person will have a hard time beating the game

however, apart from an awesome platformer, celeste has really strong narrative themes

that the developers thought should be accessible to all audiences

instead of introducing an easy mode, they have an "assist mode". an "improper way" to play the game for people who just want to follow the narrative

of course, there is no shortage of collectibles that require all sorts of masochistic tricks to get

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NInNVEHj_G4

[stable oyster]

But I don’t think that it is necessary improper, it’s just for a different type of player

[still pewter]

I'm terrible at explaining, I think this video is really insightful though, I think it's worth your time

[minor merlin]

me: attempts to use bow
zagreus: I'm near death

[stable oyster]

Ok so I have a sister, and she would be the first to tell you that she is bad at video games. She has been enjoying hades bc she is slowly learning and unlocking mirror upgrades. That’s enjoyment she would never have gotten if there wasn’t permanent progression. I’m generally better and like challenge, so I ignore the mirror or turn up the difficulty with heat. Both are valid ways to play the game for different people

There is no improper way to play, bc games are about having fun

And as long as you are having fun, you are playing properly

[still pewter]

I understand and I agree. I think the video I linked better describes but what I mean a bit better. after all, it's what instilled this idea in me

[stable oyster]

Ok I’ll look at it

Just remember that not everyone is good at rouge likes or plays games solely for the challenge, and that’s ok

[still pewter]

at the end, I realize I'm too extreme in my ideas at times. in reality I don't care so much as I seem to. I just get attached to pure, fundimental concepts

[placid plinth]

I in general suck in action games, because I have horrible reaction time, can't follow multiple targets and start button mashing too often. So, if game is too hard for me, even when it's fair, I just can't enjoy it and drop it quite often. Like I dropped Furi on the second boss after three hours of trying

So, I think, in general, having some alternative way to play is a plus, and "git gud" only gets annoying

[still pewter]

definitely, games should be accessible to as many audiences as possible

[minor merlin]

i dont even generally like roguelikes most of the time but i love both hades and dead cells bc of how even if you died it still feels like you've accomplished some meta progression that will help your future runs. also just bc i appreciate clean and fast paced combat

when you die it feels fair but also not discouraging

[placid plinth]

That's why I like Transistor the most of SGG games, and third most favorite game ever. I don't think I ever did a single action outside of Turn()

[minor merlin]

but doggo

[placid plinth]

Except Jaunt(), just for jumping around

[still pewter]

there just needs to be proper communication so that each player can tell which way to play the game is proper for them

[minor merlin]

jaunt() was so good they made it a default thing in hades lol

thats how ive been describing hades combat to ppl who have played transistor. its like the bits when youre not using plan and ur just running around like a madman trying not to die

[still pewter]

while using breaker's bow from bastion

[minor merlin]

lol

[still pewter]

hades is secretly SGG allstars

[minor merlin]

whats the best boon for the bow special do you think bc i generally dont likeit very much

[still pewter]

I don't like it either

I like giving it a niche, like knockback with poseidon, or deflect with athena

if my basic attack lacks it

I usually don't use it very much though

[minor merlin]

the bow is cool when ur quick sniping everything like legolas but the pecial rarely hits much, does very little damage, and leaves you vulnerable to be hit for a few frames after

[still pewter]

if you wanna do dmg with it, ares is definitely the way to go

[willow kindle]

it can be supercharged with damage keepsake + ares + artemis crits.

[minor merlin]

ah is that just standard damage after hit deal for him

[willow kindle]

and you can cast the whole Q into the one body

[still pewter]

athena artemis crits

[willow kindle]

sryt

ofc, Artemis

[still pewter]

[minor merlin]

artemis best girl?

[still pewter]

indeed

shaggy, regarding the debate from earlier, don't think that people that don't like the mirror are against the game being accessible

[minor merlin]

people dont like the mirror?

[placid plinth]

BTW, are there any "general tips" list? And especially any tips for Meg? I made total of 56 attempts and got through Meg only three times because of OP builds

[still pewter]

it's just, a system that gives you more options/variety in your game is generally more fun than when they give you power

[willow kindle]

@placid plinth oh well you gotta get your chair on fire once you are about to get to the hydra lol

[still pewter]

I don't like the mirror. I still think the game should be accessible though

[minor merlin]

i really love the mirror but i would be open to heavy changes to iti

[willow kindle]

Meg is pretty basic.

• counter the witches as they spawn
• tick the correct timing of her dash -quick attack after it
• dodge aoe
• run through the gaps in the bullet hell

[still pewter]

I'd say, the most important is to stay calm. wait for her to do her attack and then hit her a couple of times.

you can usually dodge her circle aoe with a couple of dahses

[minor merlin]

or just get zuess dash and jump around zapping everything lol

[placid plinth]

@willow kindle I just got to Hydra with my OP build (Shield with Epic Poseidon special and +100 damage on each bounce). Wasn't exactly obliterated, but died on it's 50%

[still pewter]

and youcan also destroy her projectiles in the bullet hell phase

[willow kindle]

Died on 15% =\ know da feel

@still pewter more easier just to run near the wall with the lines of her projectiles

[placid plinth]

If Meg was alone, I probably could handle her. But there's so much stuff going on, I get overwhelmed

[still pewter]

sure, with bow and spear though, you can spam attack and be basically completely safe

[willow kindle]

yep, that as well

[still pewter]

I suggest using the bow with ares or athena

on your attack

the spear is also very strong

[willow kindle]

@placid plinth the only problem is witches cast. just lead meg away, slay the witches and big slow muscle guys is not a problem at all

[still pewter]

do you know that after you charge your spin, you can dash? and where you'll end up, you'll do the spin

super useful

[placid plinth]

I should ignore big guys or kill them?

[willow kindle]

I'm ignoring them. Never get too close to actually do stuff

@still pewter wow

[still pewter]

I only kill them if I have the chance/ they get too many. I don't focus on them

[placid plinth]

Wow, I should try this spin thing. Because in general I find spin useless outside of cases when I charge in area where eneimies are spawning right now. If there are enemies anywhere, I get interrupted 100% of the time

[still pewter]

the previous discussion was ignited by these two excelent videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXEQ8VBqXBY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NInNVEHj_G4 . they're a lenghty watch combined, but you can see the thought progress on some of the arguments.

yeah, try the spear on skelly a bit. spear is reaaaally strong

[serene isle]

@willow kindle told you friend. Hilarity ensues

[willow kindle]

extremely , hah)
need to get used to hydra's phases now. thx bro

[placid plinth]

Spear is my favorite, even despite me not using spin 😄 Then shield, then bow (it's so slow and there's nothing you can do when enemies are in front of you and you can't dodge anywhere), then sword

[still pewter]

if you're focusing on spear basic attacks, consider the zeus attack boon

really effective and loads of fun

[placid plinth]

Yep, did it today, good stuff

[plush shell]

I usually don't bother with the minions spawned during Meg's fight because they just respawn, and Meg goes invincible to spawn a bunch at once if you kill too many of them.

Though I did just realise that they drop gold, no matter how many you kill, just like the mobs outside of the boss fights..

[still pewter]

you get some spare time to kill em while she goes invincible

[plush shell]

The only triggers I've noticed to her going invincible are her hitting certain hp% (causing her to spawn more goons) and by having too few goons on the battlefield (causing her to spawn more goons).

It's tied to the summoning animation.

[still pewter]

yeah, sounds about right

so yeah. I find it hard to justify some dash boons like aphro

[broken cipher]

I love her dash boon. Especially when also having Zeus' at the same time. Best thing.

[turbid needle]

the weaken effect is actually REALLY good when combined with certain other boons that i can t remember right now

[broken cipher]

True. Weaken in general is nice when you have high dash attack bonuses.

[turbid needle]

what s the highest damage have yall dealt ? i saw someone in here say they ve dealt around 700

[still pewter]

yeah, that was some pre patch madness

with old arte dash and spear spins + backstab

hmm stuff can get pretty crazy now as well, with the new crit

[broken cipher]

I only use sword so damage output is...not high, even with +200% boons and upgrades stacked.

[still pewter]

world spitter should give some thicc numbers

[plush shell]

World splitter crit would be quite nice I think.

[severe sinew]

Got around 400+ dmg with bow, power shot, crit and backstab.
Does that count

[still pewter]

yeah. and it can backstab. unlike other high dmg aoe

400 sounds pretty hefty

[turbid needle]

it s way higher than what i can do for sure !

400+ is really good

[broken cipher]

Wow.

[severe sinew]

But consider that you can have keepsakes giving extra dmg, + plus got a hammer for dmg for distant foes

[turbid needle]

i can never figure out how people master the bow i commend you for that

[severe sinew]

Bow is my favorite!
If I can I always choose range combat

[hard holly]

Only issue Ive got with shield

Is how youre pretty limited in how you can play it

Its always dash double tap or full eurobeat

[broken cipher]

I'm impressed with people that can do spear. Spear is...oof. Bow seems like fun...until you get to one of those survive rooms.

[still pewter]

gas gas GAS

[hard holly]

Mainly because its hammer upgrades are pretty weak

[turbid needle]

i like long range combat too but the timing... i can never get the timing right

[hard holly]

Like, one of the charge upgrades is good

And fun

And thats about it

[severe sinew]

Bow is fun UNTIL you get to the boat section...

[hard holly]

The less damage taken one is dull, the damage up and lose knockback isnt terribly interesting, all the special upgrades are entirely wasted

Why doesnt shield have stuff like worldsplitter

[severe sinew]

Because it would make it too broken, you have block with shield, remember!

[hard holly]

Give us shield surfing

Where we can steer the charge

[still pewter]

yesssssssssssss

[hard holly]

And keep going

[broken cipher]

Block...I'm way too basic to use that effectively. Holding down a key? Why do that when you can chain dash.

[severe sinew]

I still find swords move set limited compared to the other weapons

[hard holly]

Actually

Ironically sword is the most well-rounded

Most of it is behind hammer upgrades

But its there

[opal ravine]

when the shield block just doesn't work

[severe sinew]

Im talking base dmg

[hard holly]

Its base damage is decent, honestly

[still pewter]

rip lifesteal. never got to play with it

[hard holly]

Its just a hard weapon to utilize because its so unsafe

[severe sinew]

Anything can be powerful with buffs

[hard holly]

But I like the sword

Its just too hard to use at high heat

[broken cipher]

Lifesteal was great.

[still pewter]

armor screws you if you're using the basic 1 2 3 combo

even with the armor slayer hammer upgrade

[opal ravine]

I find the special builds for the sword to be mind numbing

[hard holly]

There is usually enough time to get a combo between enemy attacks

[opal ravine]

I swear you spend most of the run not even pressing anything

[hard holly]

Also, you can dodge after the thrust to hit an enemy thats further away

Which is fun

[severe sinew]

Okay tell me if its possible!
You can dash right after using a full charge on spear spin.
But can you do the same with swords special?
I always find its cooldown abit long

[hard holly]

Oh not the special

Just the thrust

The third hit in the combo

[still pewter]

I wish I could interrupt my combo with the dash and resume then resume it

[hard holly]

You dodge after it goes out

And it hits on your new location as well

[opal ravine]

ye sword needs dodge offset

[broken cipher]

Sword's special is...I wish I could animation cancel.

[hard holly]

True, but its really strong early on

And it can get silly

[broken cipher]

It's useful for survival rooms and when you're being swarmed by skulls but.

[severe sinew]

Exactly!
Give sword maybe a charge swipe or dodge offset on special, then I think its more balanced. IMO

[still pewter]

ahhh idk, I don't find any special very appealing the more I think about it. I think all need some work

[hard holly]

Spears is good

Swords is fine

[severe sinew]

All specials are range honestly, think its meant for stun or range battle

[hard holly]

Bow needs some work, Shields needs a full rework to make it useable

[still pewter]

they don't feel good to me

[hard holly]

I love spear tbh

Though they nerfed the crit upgrade :S

[broken cipher]

Sword's does exactly what it's supposed to do but I barely ever use it.

[severe sinew]

I find Bow too powerful, thats why I also choose it 😂

[broken cipher]

xD

[severe sinew]

If you could tap to shoot arrows, it would be broken

[still pewter]

most specials feel a bit clucky don't you think?

[severe sinew]

Kind of, shield and swords special are sort of okay, considered one is a range+combo attack and the other is kind of like stun/knockback

But everything went too hell when ARMOR showed up!

[still pewter]

yeah, kinda. most of the time you'd image sword special is useful though (used on a bunch of enemies) you still end up getting hit even while using athena

[broken cipher]

They do feel a little clunky but since Sword is a heavier weapon it makes sense.

[still pewter]

probably due to armor

[broken cipher]

Armor...yeah.

[still pewter]

shield special I think feels ok, it just lacks oomph and it dilutes the identity of the shield. people like it though so I guess that's fine

[severe sinew]

Im okay with armor not being effected by hits, but then you should be able to get around it with a move set capable to do that.
Knockback and critical makes it easier, with knocking enemies into traps or walls or removing it entirely

[broken cipher]

That would be interesting.

[still pewter]

on another note, since you mention it, I think environmental hazards are some of the more interesting parts of the game

they are powerful, dynamic, and create good emergent gameplay

it's not very consistent how they work though, some walls dont consistently lead to slams

I wish the system was streamlined a bit and made more consistent

[severe sinew]

But considered armored foes is coming later in the run, it's more reasonable to choose a buff that works in your favor against it, but that makes you only think about dmg numbers, and how quick you can remove the armor

[broken cipher]

Yes, they're definitely a brilliant addition to the game~

[severe sinew]

I usually knock enemies into lava, or spam them in a corner 😅

[broken cipher]

Knock into lava is best thing. Except then there's witches.

And they just...float there mockingly.

[severe sinew]

Lava is the natural enemy to armor

Yes unless they fly

[still pewter]

and brimstones. and soulstones. and medusas. damn those floating lads

[broken cipher]

^

The stones. They give me the most difficulty when there's a ton of them spawning in at once, all of them armored.

[severe sinew]

Just only buff up Poseidons knockback, and enemies would literally fly out of the screen!

Best weapon against brimstones, SHIELD!

[broken cipher]

xD That's one way to deal with the problem.

Oh! Maybe I'll give Shield another try then.

[still pewter]

shield with poseidon is pure joy

[severe sinew]

Just block and charge when they stop laser beaming you

[still pewter]

yeet fools all the way across flegethon

[broken cipher]

😂

[severe sinew]

Which powers do you find Broken or Weak?
Just compared to ALL weapons

[broken cipher]

Hmm...boon wise or base moveset wise or upgrade wise?

[still pewter]

what do you include in powers?

[severe sinew]

Boon set, like God powers
Sorry should have been more specific

[still pewter]

I find zeus making the biggest diference where he's optimal

where other boons give +80% dmg, zeus can give effectively +200% dmg

on say spear thrust or flurry blade

[severe sinew]

Yeah Zeus is definitely the most powerful imo aswell

[still pewter]

+cast and dash are so good

[severe sinew]

It can be used on all move sets and weapons

[still pewter]

other than that idk. poseidon is the most niche I think? not all playstyles want knockback

he can give you tons of max hp tho

[severe sinew]

What powers is the weakest?

[still pewter]

hmm hard to tell. poseidon maybe?

he has his niche tho

aphrodite potentially if you're so good you don't get hit

[cursive pecan]

Okay I finally figured out why sometimes I’ve had insane slowdown

[hard holly]

Ares

Ares is by far the weakest

[cursive pecan]

Oh

[hard holly]

He has 2 good boons in total now

[still pewter]

what do you consider good? curses?

[cursive pecan]

I thought you were answering my statement. Because the Ares Mark is causing slowdown on Zagreus every time it goes off on an enemy

[still pewter]

what do you mean by slowdown?

framedrops? or zag moving slower

[cursive pecan]

You know how you freeze briefly when you hit stuff

[mossy prairie]

Thanks for reporting a game freeze! The most common solution to this issue can be found in #hades-tech-fixes-old

[still pewter]

an yeah, don't type fre eze

it triggers the bot

[cursive pecan]

Oh whoops lol

[analog crystal]

Proxy bless

[still pewter]

^^

[hard holly]

Nah, revenge and Urge to Kill

Those 2 are good

The dash is maybe passable, but it doesnt fit any weapon particularly well

Cast thanks to boiling blood is bad

And the curse upgrades are worthless

[analog crystal]

I like it on sword where i dash across, the rift does damage while i backstab them

[still pewter]

I mean, you might think that they are worthless for meta setups. that doesn't mean they are not the best obtion for certain playstyles

[cursive pecan]

Curse is amazing, rift is great with shield and it’s good on point blank builds with the bow

[hard holly]

No, but they arent

[analog crystal]

Curse isnt as good due to it being standalone damage

[hard holly]

The only time Ares isnt terrible is when youre using a terrible skill you shouldnt be using

[still pewter]

ofc they are. nothing better on bow and shield special

I know shield and bow special are bad

[hard holly]

Bow special is way better with regular damage up

[still pewter]

doesnt mean curse isnt the best way to boost their dmg

[broken cipher]

Let's not tell others how to enjoy a game. ^^"

[hard holly]

I mean you can play the boons if you enjoy them

Im just saying, they are objectively really bad

[analog crystal]

Its not how to enjoy haha, its discussing pros and cons

[cursive pecan]

Anyhow yeah, if you Ares curse an enemy, the damage when it goes off causes the impact pause on Zag

[still pewter]

that's what I'm saying tho. you gotta consider the whole spectrum of situations and playstlyles regardless of power level of said playstyle

[broken cipher]

🤷 if someone likes using a particular skill and getting upgrades that benefit that then it's fine. Even if it isn't optimal for the greatest amount of builds.

[analog crystal]

Sounds like a bug?

[hard holly]

The problem with Ares is

The only time its not the worst is shield special

[still pewter]

@ wobbles, yeah it's especially bad with brimstones. because every tick procks it

[hard holly]

But shield special is really bad to use, and worse yet, encourages bad patterns

Shield special honestly needs a full rework

[cursive pecan]

So if you hit a whole group of enemies, every separate instance of the curse damage will pause you. And it makes the game experience feel like an awful frame drop

[broken cipher]

That's...that doesn't sound like it's supposed to happen. o-o

[still pewter]

ah, I was refering to the ares revenge

[cursive pecan]

I don’t think it is

[hard holly]

Yeah that shouldnt happen? I dont think there is an impact pause to begin with

[analog crystal]

Ive never noticed that but ill run ares when i get home nd check and report it maybe

[hard holly]

Honestly, I think Ares and special both need a rework

Maybe have Ares be a DoT rather than a delayed nuke

[still pewter]

I think ares has a niche. but maybe that's be cause we have slow attacks that desl low damage, like shield special and bow special when used at range

maybe that's fundimentally bad and there needs to be consistent dps across the board

but again, on shield for example you trade dps for range

[hard holly]

Thats preciely the issue

[still pewter]

which leads to this situation

[hard holly]

Its only good when your attack does low damage and is slow

Which means your attack is bad and shouldnt be used

[still pewter]

yeah, but you aren't factoring in utility

which is a real parameter that takes away part of the power budget

[hard holly]

I mean

[still pewter]

now, I don't like shield special too much myself, I'm just saying

[severe sinew]

Well I find Weak to be the weakest 😎

[hard holly]

If they had utility

Maybe

Buuut shield special has no utility

[still pewter]

range is utility though

you're safe

away from the enemy

you might not value it and I don't value it, but it is objective utility

[hard holly]

Ehhh, I dont count range as utility

[still pewter]

and some people appreciate it so who are we to say

[hard holly]

Because every weapon except sword has it

And unlike shield, the other 2 are good at range

[still pewter]

I still don't like spearspecial but hey

[hard holly]

Its good, not as good as spear regular is probably, but the best special overall

[still pewter]

its clunkyness makes it really unapealing to me

feels too slow

[mighty swan]

same, i just can't abide that delay

[hard holly]

It doesnt have that much of a delay

Its kind of like the bow

[mighty swan]

bow's usually too slow for my play style too

[hard holly]

Well, thats fair I suppose

[pastel jolt]

i loooove the bow

nyoom nyoom shooty shooty

just need to get hunter's dash fixed and i will be an happy birdie

[mighty swan]

honestly i love my cast more every day

[wide stratus]

im trying my best to love it
PLEASE LET ME, LOVE YOU BOW

[kind prawn]

I like using the bow for special-based builds

[pastel jolt]

earlier i tried to base a run around scatter shot and it took two attempts to get aphrodite to give me it at a decent rarity and then i didn't get any poms and it was just TERRIBLE

i want to like the shotgun cast

but :c

[kind prawn]

I tried running an attack build with a bow, but I was yet unskilled enough with the game. should give it another go

[autumn tapir]

I really don't like the bow

it's competing with shield for weapon that feels the least impactful

[hard holly]

Uhhh

Impactful in what way?

[pastel jolt]

you can have the bow from my cold dead hands

[hard holly]

And even then good luck

Because I will have glued it to my cold dead hands

[autumn tapir]

doing enough damage to make it worth using

the bow is super slow compared to its damage IMO

[mighty swan]

heehee "impactful"

[pastel jolt]

@kind prawn the best advice i can give for bow is to practice with it on skelly

[hard holly]

Eh, it really isnt

It does absurd damage

And its still pretty fast

Especially if you do dodge shots

[pastel jolt]

dashing makes your next shot charge slightly faster and it takes a while to get the hang of powershot timings

[hard holly]

Its like .4 seconds for a powershot

[pastel jolt]

but once you do it's real nice

[hard holly]

And bow can easily hit for 600+ damage

[kind prawn]

@pastel jolt I need to get my dash shots better to make it worthwhile. I did have a blast using it with deadalus hammer upgrade that removes cast time

[pastel jolt]

y'know i've never taken that upgrade

i'm more a point-blank kind of person

[mighty swan]

i love me my shield 😩 i supplement its low special damage with insane cast boons and i'm satisfied

[hard holly]

Rapid shot

I think its a weak upgrade

But some people do swear on it

Best one is triple shot

[mighty swan]

however lately i have rekindled my love affair with the good ol sword

[hard holly]

Because its a 3x multiplier

[kind prawn]

you can spam shoot with it. I don't have patience enough to do a sniper build with the bow 😄

sword with remove-thrust upgrade and ares curse is pretty badass

@hard holly I haven't tried that one yet, I might give it a go

[hard holly]

You do have to be up close and personal though

[pastel jolt]

did they change triple shot recently? i coulda sworn the three shots were closer together before

[kind prawn]

my last run I managed to get both Zeus and Ares legendary boons

[pastel jolt]

ah, yup, chaos update

Triple Shot (Daedalus - Bow): widened attack arc

[kind prawn]

the moving boat in asphodel I laughed at how fast everything died

[pastel jolt]

if i have to get right up into people's faces to hit em with all three arrows i'd rather be using point-blank anyway

[plush shell]

@kind prawn Zeus is better for that I think.

[pastel jolt]

one of these days i WILL do a run where i go for All The Blade Rifts

[plush shell]

But I still super agree.

[still pewter]

thing is, 3ple shot is effectively point blank+aoe for normal rooms

[hard holly]

Eh

Its also better than pointblank

[kind prawn]

is there a way ATM to do a "monotheism" run? just get a single gods boons

[hard holly]

Because it does way more damage

[still pewter]

maybe 3prlr shot could see another nerf to stop it from eating point blank's cake

[hard holly]

It probably should

[plush shell]

Luck mostly? You can avoid other gods some of the time.

[hard holly]

Make it only do damage once per enemy

[still pewter]

it is possible, but it's random

@ bruisedlie

[kind prawn]

I hope they put the achievement for that. Monotheist, if you get only one god's boons, Atheist if you get no gods boons

[still pewter]

those are some neat achievement ideas

I dig them, and the names

they make too much sense

[kind prawn]

thanks 😃

Tinkerer would also be nice. Get 3+ daedalus hammers

Minimalist if you avoid ANY boons and damage upgrades

[still pewter]

"an aquired taste" after getting 10 onions

[kind prawn]

that's a great one 😄

[severe sinew]

I think that would be like customizing your own run, which probably wont be
But certainly an interesting idea, and achievements are just fun tho

[still pewter]

gourmet after eating 10 poms!

they are supposed to be delicatessen in the underworld after all

[kind prawn]

@still pewter wasn't a pomegranate supposed to bring fertility? Something in those lines might be a better name for achievement?

Potent, for instance

[still pewter]

potentially

[severe sinew]

Like ticking of which boons too be active through a run, like item swaps? could be in pact of punishment? 🤔

[kind prawn]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomegranate

ooohhhh, by this myth, it was 6 seeds that were eaten so we have 6 month of bad weather and no crop growth

[still pewter]

interesting

[kind prawn]

maybe just call it POMpous if we eat 10 poms ? 😄

[still pewter]

haha, that'd be funny

[mighty swan]

10 poms? antioxidants

[kind prawn]

hah! nice

this name seems more appropriate...

[still pewter]

achilles would agree 😂

[proud storm]

a pom a day keeps the bad dad away

[hard holly]

So what youre saying is

Hades is deathly afraid of cheerleaders?

[kind prawn]

Oh, if you clean a room doing only backstab damage, Achievement could be Rogue initiate

@hard holly I think you're onto something there 😄

maybe a global pom eaten count could be something like Cheerleader ? 😄

last one before I go: Duying by standing in lava could be something relating to average WoW raider

Raid Leader's Favorite maybe

[still pewter]

haven't played wow, so I can't rally contribute to this one

[hard holly]

I imagine nowadays most people havent

Its aged poorly, and it wasnt even that great when it came out

[turbid needle]

I really like this game

even though I can't get past the fury boss 😦

[severe sinew]

You get past her, in due time!

[turbid needle]

Yeah

There's only so much leveling up I can do before my sheer amount of suckage prevents me from continuing

[severe sinew]

Find a weapon that suits you best and your way up from that

[broken cipher]

You could always try rebind your keys too, if that doesn't work~ Maybe a more familiar setup will help?

[drifting hemlock]

Or go into the game files and delete the first boss!

[broken cipher]

[turbid needle]

lol

we'll see

I've gotten her as far as halfway

[autumn tapir]

oof the chaos boon that increases your found gold doesn't apply to infernal troves

[valid burrow]

When I went to a bloodgate I got 2 of the same boon from chaos

forgot to press f10

sorry if this is the wrong chat, but where should i report it?

i got a pic

[severe sinew]

Feedback, but dont know if you can upload pics there

[valid burrow]

I can't

there could be a channel just for bug finds though

[severe sinew]

Then the best is to word it as best you can, so they can look into it

[errant narwhal]

feedback is definitely not the right channel for that

Bugs are deleted there

[drifting hemlock]

Nope not feedback

[errant narwhal]

Here’s the message I deleted, in case you find a better place to send it: “I don't know if this is the best place to report bugs, but I forgot to press f10 at the time, so here it is: One time I entered a blood gate and 2 of the options were both abyssal strike. One making me suffer 152% damage from traps for 4 encounters with a reward of 23% more of attack damage, the other making me suffer 347% damage from traps, and 16% of attack damage reward. That isn't supposed to happen, is it?” @valid burrow

[severe sinew]

Sorry @valid burrow

[abstract glen]

What is Heat used for?

[pastel jolt]

it's used to power up the conditions on the pact of punishment

[abstract glen]

so.., Chaos?

[pastel jolt]

no

[plush shell]

@icy idol I'd be fine if they spawned exclusively as trove challenges too.

That makes them opt-in, makes it so not all troves are simply "kill x enemies as fast as possible" challenges, and helps make sure players always get a certain number of upgrades over the course of their runs.

[icy idol]

I like that idea, add extra challenge, but then if that happened I think you shouldn't have to pay keys

[plush shell]

Occasionally you get one that's free to open. I like them taking keys, because that gives them a use for players who have already unlocked everything (or would like to get some extra coin for their run).

Maybe if they removed the ones that take two keys to open somehow, that'd be nice. 🤷

[icy idol]

Ye 2+ keys is a lot to invest of a chance to get x amount of y items

Because you never get the total since the counter starts as soon as they spawn and they all don't spawn at once and you can't insta kill them all so it's never gonna give you the max reward

Buuut if you did a challenge and complete the challenge it could give you the reward, say 75% baseline just for completing it and then upwards depending on how quickly you completed it

Or for survival it'd be how many enemies you killed while surviving

[plush shell]

It feels like too many enemies spawn in survival to make fighting them a reasonable option. This is more a problem in Asphodel because of how tough and mobile the enemies there are.

[tulip timber]

It got better after the mini patch.

I think it's okay now, you just have to play more careful than you would otherwise to avoid onion.

[dusky drum]

i did 60 heat yesterday with little to nothing

https://imgur.com/a/QEnEiu5

i had 3 death defies and skelly lvl 2 trinket

at the start of hydra

[valid burrow]

Am I getting worse at the game or am I having bad luck? Sometimes I get to Meg with 2 boons, no pom, no hammer and just die there e.e

[dusky drum]

bad luck

i think im ok and i can consistently get past meg but when i get only 1 boon i die

thats the drawback to rouge likes

its a mix of luck and skill but with no luck its really hard

what should i put heat into for 120 heat

since 60 was 1750 or 200 darkness, 1 death insurance, 200% damage, 100% hp, and 50% more enemies

[drifting hemlock]

i went in with a maxed imrror

mirror

for 120

guess sacking some mirror upgrades for more boon options is better

[indigo compass]

120 heat is a nightmare tbh

[dusky drum]

has anyone beat it yet

[indigo compass]

yeah i think so

but i cant do it

[dusky drum]

i feel like the last statue will be zag or skelly cosplaying zag

[indigo compass]

is it me or did numskulls get alot faster? specially with armoured ones i cant even decently draw my bow before getting hit just before dashing

[dusky drum]

same

i attack only to have the endlag cause me to get hit

[indigo compass]

have alot of trouble with all enemies except witches

[patent lodge]

The only one's that trip me up are the louts

[indigo compass]

specially thugs and louts atk range is so annoying

[dusky drum]

louts and armored skulomats are annoying

especially with death insurance

[indigo compass]

yeah for a heat run its allmost undoable

[vocal totem]

my friend just beat meg on his 5th ever run or so, without even encountering chaos yet, and im still unable to beat her after 25+ runs

[patent lodge]

I don't mind the skulomats nearly as much as louts. the louts without armor are fine because you can stop their attack by attacking but the armored ones are just a proper pain

@vocal totem same

[indigo compass]

hmm still louts have a weird atk i feel sometiems its like they suddenly atk faster then usual same with thugs

[dusky drum]

and i feel like they can turn around while charging their attack

[indigo compass]

even had a lout go through a wall and hit me

[dusky drum]

and the fact that bloodless predict your dash is a pain

[indigo compass]

yeah

although they have def improved

[plush shell]

It bothers me that the thugs will turn after flashing and readying their attack.

[dusky drum]

yea

[indigo compass]

yeah thats super annoying

[plush shell]

But only sometimes. It feels random, even though I know it's not.

[indigo compass]

and how they sometimes hit me 2 dashes away

[plush shell]

They have a lot of reach.

tbh the base dash (without the mirror) doesn't evade a whole lot of stuff.

[indigo compass]

sometimes i can just dash once without getting hit sometimes 2 isent enough

[dusky drum]

the hit boxes are kind of janky

[indigo compass]

very inconsistent

[plush shell]

Comes from working out the early access kinks, I suppose.

[indigo compass]

and louts seem to have an endless range

[plush shell]

Sword I have a lot of trouble dealing with enemies with tbh. Its chain just doesn't feel nice to do.

[indigo compass]

nope

thrust is to slow

i can never get thrust in without getting hit

[plush shell]

The hammer upgrades to make it quick but no thrust, or earth breaker, are really good if only because of that.

[dusky drum]

i feel like sword is too reliant on getting world splitter or flurry

[indigo compass]

yeah flurry blade is good

[dusky drum]

its special is way to slow, and it has no ranged option

[indigo compass]

yup

but same for bow

that special is so slow its too unreliable

and no dmg

[plush shell]

It feels okay with some damage bonuses and the daedalus +range bonus.

[indigo compass]

atk is still alot better

[plush shell]

Mostly Athena's because of the long winddown.

[indigo compass]

doesent lock u into place for an eternity

[plush shell]

For sure, no contest.

[brave aurora]

I feel like the spear is the worse weapon can have easy time completing runs with any weapon but that one

[indigo compass]

with poseidon knockback its pretty usuable in the right places

but still no fun to use imo

spear is alot better then sword:p

imo

[vocal totem]

maybe it could have a jumpy attack like in bastion

the pike in bastion rather

[indigo compass]

imo specials should be way more powerfull maybe even with cd

[brave aurora]

Yeah cd or maybe some sort of resource

[indigo compass]

would be nice if they could be a part of ure kit everry run istead of having to invest in it and it still being not a good as atk

maybe like the sword special for instance if it was stronger and faster but on a cd it would get far more use i feel

[hollow notch]

Something is not right... I died two times at the hydra today

And I had darn good builds...

[indigo compass]

ive been trying to get 120 heat done but i cant even beat meg :p

been to asphodel once

[brave aurora]

Yeah definitely would feel more like a "special"

[native kelp]

I made it to hydra my first time today. Theres a lot going on in that fight, but my only criticism about the game so far is that the early parts seem to introduce armored enemies pretty fast. Making progression to where you last died take longer

[indigo compass]

its a nice fight , although for heat runs its a little bit too hard i feel, the last head phase is allmost impossible without taking dmg