Yep.
#h1-builds-and-combat
plucky oxide
@fickle hull then start a new game save if you worry about spoiling your progression loop
fickle hull
True. I might do that when the game drops a new update
stray radish
this is why i think it should be capped
fickle hull
It's a kind of damned if they do, damned if they don't
tired pivot
Why should darkness and keys be capped?
stray radish
so you can save a bit for future but not to the point of spoiling all the fun for yourself xD
and ambrosia. so you dont immediately unlock everything with new updates
fickle hull
If they facilitated my overplaying of the EA, other people would feel bad that rooms felt pointless. Either way, SG loss
tired pivot
Is that an issue?
stray radish
the downside of early access
silent cliff
i don't think anything should be capped. if you don't want to spoil your progression you can always use a new profile. at the same time, there are people who want to get rewarded for clearing the current content over and over
tired pivot
Personally I'd rather they don't cap things.
You can intentionally take your time to unlock the items if you want.
For me, I don't like grinding it too much, so I'd rather be able to unlock everything and jump back into the runs.
fickle hull
I agree. I think it's not a problem work solving and I'm most at risk of it.
plucky oxide
@tired pivot Yes. If boons had twice the chance to come up as rewards, we'd be seeing people get legendary boons waaay too often, too early. It's a careful balance, and suggesting that spawn rates change that drastically based off of simply collecting enough stuff is dangerous. Players might assume they just need to 'collect all the ambrosia so their runs can actually start mattering', instead of trying every time to push as far as they can.
tired pivot
If you really care that much, just set the goal of only unlocking one new thing per run.
silent cliff
plus there are way more important things needed for the game. such as an apprentice for dusa to help her cleaning
stray radish
im nowhere near completing the mirror yet so xD ill probably be fine
tired pivot
I see. I forgot to take into considering the last two mirror perks and the impact they would have.
stray radish
i guess there are other save slots
tired pivot
Personally though, I don't like the mixing of meta rewards and run rewards.
fickle hull
Yeah. I don't lose runs now with legendary maxed
silent cliff
also you can always set the mirror to the power level you want yourself to be at.
tired pivot
I would like it better if meta rewards and run rewards were found through different means.
plucky oxide
A thing to note! Ambrosia bottles can only be given one at a time! So runs set the pace of how you unlock things. Of course you can exploit this by forcing your death over and over again, but is that really worth it? Naaaah. They're setting the tempo for you!
plucky oxide
Yeah!
stray radish
if you have enough you can just give one everyone at the house every death xD
silent cliff
i think what pause means is that, even if you have a ton of ambrosias, you can still only give away one at a time to each character
plucky oxide
Sounds like a time saver to me!
fickle hull
I honestly think dash damage makes the game trivially easy, and the legendary versions of perks should be scaled down.
tired pivot
Maybe instead of scaling done legendary perks, scale down the strength of the mirror upgrade.
It would be a careful balance of making the legendary perks impactful when you find them in the game, but no make them overpowered with the mirror.
plucky oxide
They don't, if I recall.
fickle hull
Honestly I get a legendary perk every upgrade. I never end a run without at least 2
And that's without the rare occurrence upgrade maxed
tired pivot
That, I can see being problematic.
plucky oxide
What? How? They can't spawn until you reach a certain criteria.
plucky oxide
Very different
tired pivot
@plucky oxide What are you thoughts for making use of meta rewards after unlocking everything?
silent cliff
I feel like the mirror boon upgrades are mostly there to give us a motivation to keep playing during early access and might be replaced with something else in later stages of development
and if you feel you are getting too many legendaries just remove your mirror upgrades :p
fickle hull
I just think the best version of a perk shouldn't be as great as it is, and have the poms do what they're doing
Like 90% crit vs 100 with Artemis
silent cliff
I think the mirror rewards are fine - the game will become much harder once more levels are released
and there will always be people like you who are really good at the game, but it should be designed that the average player also succeeds
plucky oxide
^
silent cliff
that's why there should and probably will be leaderboards so that you will always have challenges
plucky oxide
@tired pivot Oh, nothing too great. Focusing on weapons for keys would be nice. Having darkness unlock a small % bonus that changes randomly on all weapons. Like a 10% attack damage at max run, and then being able to use keys to reroll what that small bonus is before choosing your weapon. Would incentivize rotating weapons around a bit more, and be a darkness and key sink, without overall breaking runs.
gritty ermine
Maybe a difficulty slider that could affect some of these things?
silent cliff
nah, rogue likes are supposed to be random and sometimes unfair, sometimes trivial imho
a difficulty slider would make the game predictable and less enjoyable
fickle hull
But the number of poms and upgrades you get will also increase, also the likelihood of legendary because of upgrade permutations. I don't think the game naturally harder because your upgrade kit get more robust and well-rounded
And I honestly don't think I'm better than average at this game
plucky oxide
I think the pace of the game is fine as-is. This is an answer that must be addressed when future content comes out. For now, the progression loop is working as intended. Many of us are just upset we've reached the end of its course.
fickle hull
I think it's too easy. Once you learn to not get blown out by witches on Asphodel and get your 3 extra lives, this game might be too easy
I wouldn't say upset. Just coming concerns that may or may not be planned for in January
silent cliff
@fickle hull i disagree. i personally finish the hydra at best with 2 extra lives and 25-40 hp remaining. imagine there being 3-4 levels beyond asphodel with an ever-increasing difficulty
but that might just be me being bad
and as I said, when there are leaderboards, then for good players it's more about achieving a high score than just beating the game
gritty ermine
felix, wouldn't you just avoid changing the difficulty then? Lol I know I'm really enjoying this, but I'm getting pretty frustrated and would like there to be an option that helps ease things a bit. I can't even beat meg after like 8 hours of game play. I'm just bad, and that happens.
silent cliff
@gritty ermine I understand your point, but take Dark Souls for example. Suffering is what makes the game great and a boss kill more rewarding
gritty ermine
maybe for you, but I can't even play that game
fickle hull
Dark souls wouldn't become worse if you had an easy mode
errant narwhal
felix please watch your language
fickle hull
Not would this game
plucky oxide
I personally think feedback should be disabled when the new patch/content comes out, and bug fixes should be the prioritized channel. Give people a few days to wrap their heads around the new stuff, and then ask for feedback. I just don't want day 1 griefs to show up.
tired pivot
@plucky oxide But you still think they should be used for out-of-run actions, not in-run actions?
plucky oxide
Yes!
That's their intended design! To offer you a reward that goes 'oh, I might be able to use this before my next run!'
silent cliff
@errant narwhal sorry, will be more careful in the future. i'm just not used to refrain from using my vulgar vocabulary
plucky oxide
Or even spending darkness on buffs that are one-run only. Things of that nature.
tired pivot
Hmm.
silent cliff
@plucky oxide i think that's a great idea.. similar to Dead By Daylight afaik
tired pivot
Interesting. For me that's actually kind of... unfun.
fickle hull
I don't know. I feel like that's bad for the high-level competitive running of the family
Game*
tired pivot
Even in DBD it's better because collecting the out-of-run items doesn't weaken your current run.
silent cliff
@fickle hull also very true
fickle hull
But runners will just create categories
tired pivot
Reward RNG is always going to be an issue in rogue-likes. However, there's a difference between rewards giving a small or large boost to a run, or rewards giving a boost or no boost at all. The latter isn't very good for competitive yeah.
fickle hull
But I really dislike the idea of a reset-heavy running environment
But that is more of a finish line kind of question
tired pivot
I'm thinking that if it does reach a competitive running level, people might mod it to remove the meta rewards.
Or if there could be an in-game option to remove them.
vapid mauve
that wouldn't fly
tired pivot
I mean, if the competitive format is to run without meta rewards, it would completely fly.
silent cliff
or maybe you could have something a bit more lore-related? like spending darkness sides you more with hades and gives you permanent, albeit smaller, buffs whilst on the other hand reducing the chance of finding (rare or epic) boons because you are out of favour with the olymp? not sure how this is balancable tho
vapid mauve
if it's a built in option, sure. Speedrunners aren't going to run on modded versions that affect the gameplay
fickle hull
We've just created the first turn off this development, I think more Gods, weapons, and a more varied loop is what they should focus on
tired pivot
Of course they will if they think it will make the game better.
vapid mauve
not if it's serious or competitive at least
vapid mauve
what makes you think that? Are you at all familiar with speedrunning? The vast majority of games have major random elements that don't get modded out
tired pivot
Sure.
But I don't know too many speedrunning which has RNG which can fundamentally not give any change to the run at all.
vapid mauve
???
there are tons of runs where your speedrun will just be straight up ruined by bad rng, much less ones where you can not get a benefit
fickle hull
Yeah, a certain build version may get run that is pre-patch of a an exploit, but the only mods I can think of is aLttP randomizer
plucky oxide
I mean, isn't there an entire character in Isaac that has random starting stats? Aren't there 'win streaks' runs, where the point is to keep playing, no matter your rng? Speed running isn't the only way to play.
primal folio
people will speedrun literally anything?
tired pivot
Eden win streaks isn't speed running.
primal folio
the notion that bad RNG would deter a speedrunning community is wild
tired pivot
Yeah, yeah.
plucky oxide
I think the idea is not to promote it
vapid mauve
yeah, rpg speedrunning is real big despite it being mostly text / cinematics / getting completely bodied by bad rng
tired pivot
I'm deflecting from my original issue anyways.
silent cliff
i personally don't think that the design choices during early access should be focussed around speedrunning the full release version of the game.
plucky oxide
There's a reason I don't put these suggestions I say in feedback. I don't feel they fit entirely!
primal folio
like I saw someone speedrun splatoon on an arcade Dance Dance Revolution setup
anything can be done
fickle hull
Lol. Absolutely. Not early-killing runs because of unavoidable run-RNG isn't super great to begin with
tired pivot
Of course.
Anyhow, I was just deflecting off my original issue of meta-rewards in the reward pool being unfun, so disregard what I said about the competitive aspect really.
fickle hull
Felix, great speedrun games work hand in hand with runners during development
See: Celeste and Ori
But I might agree that this is a tad early to be worried about it
tired pivot
They can always clean it up later anyways.
vapid mauve
yeah, this is the sort of game where people speedrun it despite it not being specifically geared towards that (like most games)
fickle hull
I think this game is pretty optimal for running.
tired pivot
I think this game is pretty good for speedrunning.
fickle hull
Working around playable RNG is part of the gig
tired pivot
Yeah, of course.
vapid mauve
I mean I don't think they are specifically designing it around speedrunning, whereas platformers often have timers / time trials etc
not that its bad for running
delicate smelt
is it really recommended to play with a controller?
tired pivot
On a side note, can you get the dash+attack damage bonus with bow?
fickle hull
Probably with a draw-release
vapid mauve
yes, dash and then start shooting right away, even if you spend time charging you get the bonus from artemis dash and from quick temper
it's very strong
tired pivot
Thanks.
vapid mauve
I've heard that it is Pingu, personally I've played keyboard + mouse and it works great for me
tired pivot
Wait so do you have to actually damage within the time frame for the abilities or just start the attack charge-up?
vapid mauve
just start the attack within time, you can spend however long you like holding the charge
fickle hull
Makes sense if it's input-dependent
tired pivot
Is that also true with spear charge spin?
vapid mauve
I don't believe so
tired pivot
Darn.
fickle hull
It swings then charges
tired pivot
Oh, I guess that makes sense since you attack with spear then charges the spin.
Yeah
Maybe with upgraded Artemis where you get multiple crits?
fickle hull
Probably could
vapid mauve
maybe artemis crit could work, I think quick temper is too short on the time window
tired pivot
But as long as you chargeup bow within the Quick Temper window you're good?
vapid mauve
yep
tired pivot
Nice.
vapid mauve
for a real good time with the bow: Triple Shot (daedalus), a big +damage on normals like from Athena, Artemis dash -> Dash right up next to someone and triple perfect shot them at point blank for absurd damage
tired pivot
Has there been suggestions for putting the time windows for Avenging Game and Quick Temper in the descriptions?
vapid mauve
if you can get backstab / skull earing damage on top of it all the better
tired pivot
Nice.
Bow is still kind of the most clunky weapon so far for me.
Though I found that getting poseidon on its attacks helps a lot.
fickle hull
My next darkness bonus is a bow, I'll have to check it out
tired pivot
Is Switch Pro Controller supported?
vapid mauve
dunno
tired pivot
Guess I'll see then
fickle hull
I think the reason I have maxed out darkness is that I already follow the bonus
Always*
10 percent is a lot in the long Tim
Run*
vapid mauve
One of your weapons at home will have purple swirls around it. If you take that you get Dark Thirst, +10% darkness from all sources for that run
hollow rivet
What is the most fun build you guys have found?
analog crystal
I have a lot of fun with sword special athena just because launching 20 ranged attacks back at those annoying 5 shooters in Aspho is satisfying
silent cliff
i've had an aris+zeus revenge boon, an aphrodite weak bonus on all attacks and an athena deflect and damage reduction
could let the hydra hit me on purpose and still win the fight
vapid mauve
huge damage bow was probably the most fun, my mainstay is just consecutive normal spear attacks with zeus
hollow rivet
I think my favourite one is bow, artemis dash crit and athena dmg+deflect on regular atack. I just dash in between every atack and deal like 200 dmg ๐
add triple shot for point blank nuking power
gritty ermine
OH MY GOD I HATE MEG SO MUCH
silent cliff
haha dont give up ghost
vapid mauve
mean ๐ฎ
turbid needle
Hello everyone
turbid needle
Meg is the first boss no??
vapid mauve
ya
hollow rivet
I also hated meg at first. But realized she has an easy pattern
you can just move out of her dash without dodging
turbid needle
Yeah she is pretty hard for a first boss XDD
gritty ermine
if she had 20% HP I'd be done with her lol
hollow rivet
i think the hardest part about her fight is the enemies she summons. they get in free dmg on you while you try to focus her
hollow rivet
try to get some for of AOE for her fight. ZEUS cast is decent
turbid needle
sorry for my bad english too ;d
forest marsh
I find for the most part you can avoid the adds in the Meg fight unless absolutely necessary to hit them. Invest in extra dashes from the mirror, and learn Meg's patterns to know when to attack and when to stay back
silent cliff
also I think once you clear a certain amount of adds, meg runs into the middle and spawns a new wave of adds
plucky oxide
Favorite build is still Artemis cast build. Rapid firing triple casts is so much fun.
forest marsh
I think it's health based, just like the Hydra fight
silent cliff
give me 10-15 minutes, I will try it out
plucky oxide
Usually mid health, she runs off and does her thing where she summons.
silent cliff
i have definitely seen her do that multiple times.. will come back in around 10 minutes and then we know for sure
forest marsh
@still dew I'm pretty sure I've had Dark Thirst trigger from Sisyphus, but either way that sounds like a bug report more than feedback. Consider using F10 in-game to report the issue when it happens again (if you can reliably reproduce it)
still dew
Whoops, I'm used to reporting in the feedback channel
I play from my couch with a controller though, so that's a bit tricky
I'm pretty certain about it though, at least it doesn't trigger explicitly
silent cliff
so here is what i could observe:
meg's fight can be split in 3 phases.
Phase 1 (100% - ~75% hp): meg only uses her charge and the melee spin attack. single adds spawn occasionally
Phase 2( ~75% - ~50% hp): meggie now also uses the casts and her projectiles (although she didn't use it once in the fight I just did which is pretty weird). more adds spawn
Phase 3 (below ~50% hp): At the start of this phase, meg runs to the middle of the room and spawns adds. She will continue doing so occasionally no matter her hp (did not hit her and she spawned adds 2-3 times). I think this goes off once you killed enough adds. The rest is like in phase 2.
vapid mauve
neat
pastel jolt
her attacks are randomised so she'll use the same overall set but different ones become avalable at different times
i've had meg fights where she starts with the circles
silent cliff
okay, that's odd then.. i ran around like 2 minutes at the start of the fight and all she did was charge and spin
gritty ermine
I
I've had her just sitting there spamming her AOE circles as soon as they become available and nothing else every fight
pastel jolt
different fights, felix
gritty ermine
its miserable, i literally can't stop dashing
pastel jolt
as in different runs
forest marsh
The attacks she chooses seem to vary with your proximity to her, from my experience
gritty ermine
so i've tried the AoE dash stuff and got her low, down to like 1/6th hp this time but ded
keen tangle
Oh I bugged meg just now
gritty ermine
so over her stupid face and stupid voice
vapid mauve
keen tangle
You can get her to stop at the base of a pillar, then if rubble falls on top of her she can't move
gritty ermine
Really?
errant narwhal
If youโre still there, please report it with F10 ๐
gritty ermine
I know about the extra wall dmg but didn't know i could stun her
errant narwhal
I think haiku means she got stuck...? Or am I misunderstanding
forest marsh
Unless they meant bugged as in irritated ๐ In which case, big mood
errant narwhal
lol
Sheโs always irritated, no need to make rubble fall on her. Just showing up is enough
keen tangle
She got stuck, I just reported it. https://clips.twitch.tv/ConfidentMoralFloofPJSugar
silent cliff
when your day is already terrible...
final goblet
She was on top of a rock
keen tangle
yeah, that's what i put in the bug report
you can make a rock fall on her and she can't move until the rock is destroyed
it might be position dependent
errant narwhal
poor meg ahahaha
keen tangle
like A* pathfinding hasn't updated or something
final goblet
That happened to me once with the ?bombrothers? but he got stuck between three rocks so I guess its report worthy
forest marsh
Skeletwins (can be either Slamdancers or Inferno Bombers)
final goblet
Inferno thx
silent cliff
the bomb brothers.. makes me imagine the dudes hanging out together after work and jamming
and then coming up with that dodgy band name
final goblet
But still you knew what I was talking about soo... mision accomplished 
silent cliff
hey no offense mate i didn't know how to call them either
final goblet
None taken but now I'll have an idea of skelebros having their own band
forest marsh
I bet they have a bangin' bassline
silent cliff
and their songs will blow your mind
final goblet
They take the depression of being killed over and over again and they turn it into kickass music
silent cliff
how amazing would it be if the locked door in hades house would lead to a secret rock concert
forest marsh
Aw, it's ok Snowcone. I was frustrated my first few attempts as well, but you'll get there eventually 
gritty ermine
its been like hours of attempts lol
silent cliff
we believe in you! tomorrow you will get her
forest marsh
Because the devs hate us 
keen tangle
at 25% health incriments
gritty ermine
it felt like way more than that
silent cliff
she becomes impervious when she follows you around to do her melee spin attack
gritty ermine
ah
silent cliff
else you could just kite and kill her with dash casts
keen tangle
maybe? I feel like I can consistently get her to go impervious at 75%, 50% and 25%
gritty ermine
which should be a thing
cause i can't kill her
lemme cast her to death dammit devs
haha
silent cliff
they should make a snowcone mode for that might which lets you exploit a variety of glitches haha
forest marsh
Best advice I can give is to side step her dash attack and then get a bunch of backstabs in
gritty ermine
that would make me happy
that's what I was doing, she's crazy punishing though
idk how yall beat her
forest marsh
Try a different weapon/boon build?
hollow rivet
i think i get her to become impervious at one point while she was chasing me to do her spin atk. and because i kept dashing and she couldn't catch up, she just stayed impervious untill i let her catch up. Realized that is what was happening much later, but got really miffed back then. thought it may be a bug.
keen tangle
so I got her to 74.6153% and she went invincible, I'll check her health percentage at the next incriment
silent cliff
ye she gets impervious when she rises into the air and spins around, I agree that that tends to happen at hp breakpoints
keen tangle
hrm this one looks to be 50.76%, but i'm eyeballing the markers so i might be off by a few numbers in my calculations
26.9, so yeah, still pretty close to 25%
and if it helps any, after the first time i beat meg, i think i've only died a couple of times to her (and I was usually just careless). It's definitely a skill fight - you learn the patterns
forest marsh
For both boss fights, the most important thing is to not get greedy in your attacks
turbid needle
Does Athena's "Sure Footing" boon (text says "reduces damage from traps") also reduce damage from Asphodel lava?
vapid mauve
that's sick, what level of reduction do you need to not get harmed at all?
errant narwhal
that's 92%
vapid mauve
looks like epic with one pom
errant narwhal
yes
vapid mauve
cool, maybe ill try that if I get a chance
would be nice on the hydra to have some more ground to stand on
keen tangle
do the conversations actually unlock more hearts on npcs or is that time gated (as more content is released)
vapid mauve
there's limits on how far you can go, because still in development
keen tangle
right
final goblet
Actually hydras room doesn't have a wall at the bottom so you can just run away
And believe you can run very far I've tried
hollow rivet
i just did 536 dmg with 1 bow shot
backstab + crit + athena dmg boost + daedalus 250% bonus dmg on power shot ๐
hydra heads went down so fast
does anyone know the highesr dmg record for 1 shot?
highest*
forest marsh
Bow damage can get silly! Though so can others, given the right conditions. My high score single damage number is I think 1134 from spear spin-dash with crit, backstab and extra damage vs armour
hollow rivet
i think i could have gottent like 700 if i had the melee 350% dmg bonus
keen tangle
I should have taken a screenshot of the 750 damage spear hits
forest marsh
Highest bow damage is probably going to come from Triple Shot, though it's technically 3 hits... Still one "attack" vs one target, though
hollow rivet
i think artemis dash is my favourite fot the bow. having guaranteed crit is awesome
for*
keen tangle
artemis is bae
neon bobcat
i really wish meg had less hp
i hate spending like 10 mins fighting her only to die when she is at 10%
hollow rivet
@neon bobcat try bow + artemis trinket and get the crit after dash option. i really think this is the easiest way ot beat the game right now. just dash - shoot - dash and repeat ๐
vapid mauve
I think she's good as is. does take awhile if you aren't using an op build, but only a couple or a few minutes unless your dps is really low
kindred sage
Yeah, a little less HP would keep the fight a little less frustrating when still working on a build (specially once the game is longer)
analog crystal
I would like to think that a boss wouldn't feel grindy unless using an 'op' build
I just choose a dark thirst weapon, and an appropriate keep sake and let rng choose the boons
vapid mauve
a 3 minute boss fight isn't that grindy I don't think
analog crystal
So I feel a boss thats alright with an OP build would limit enjoyability
True, sometimes it does feel like it drags a bit though
delicate smelt
@neon bobcat same, i feel like less hp would make it less frustrating
dapper heart
Yeah, it is frustrating.
I'm really happy though, I got to hydra utilizing Zeus/Aphrodite.
And experimenting with 'only using dash to move during fights.'
neon bobcat
so I got a hammer boon on my bow that says "your power shot does 250% damage" but it isnt changing my damage at all...
any thoughts?
dapper heart
The power shot is when the charged shot flashes white.
neon bobcat
does it have to be timed perfectly or something?
worthy frost
I'm probably not as skilled as most on here as it took my around 40 runs to finally beat Meg once. But I think the game would be even better if there were more bits of loot you could pick and the difficulty curve were a tad easier (or there was an option to scale difficulty a bit). Love the game although the color palette is hard on my eyes after a while of playing (I mean hard as in it causes eye strain rather than making an aesthetic comment).
forest marsh
It teaches you how to Power Shot when you pick the bow up in the weapon room, and will only go off screen when you leave the room or complete the action properly
lean onyx
Has anyone been able to find a good combo using the spear? So far I feel like ares attack upgrade and zeus special + hammer special (impact explode) have really shine bright. I've only been able to make it hydra and get him down to 10% however.
orchid rapids
Athena is really strong right now because they buffed her % damage
but Ares attack isn't bad either
I personally would try the spear spin
Especially with the upgrades, it's really strong
lean onyx
Really? I havent tired to use the spin very often since the left click for spear is fast to just do quick backstab successions
orchid rapids
The spin move can backstab so if you charge the spear a little out of immediate range of an enemy, you can dash to cancel it, hopping behind an enemy for example and get huge damage in an AoE
it also applies the dash damage mirror upgrade and the Artemis Hunter's Dash crit
lean onyx
I see, what would you recommend to get as a cast upgrade for a spear weapon then?
orchid rapids
Cast builds from my experience haven't exactly been super good besides I think Zeus
lean onyx
Right now I'm doing a run with artemis dash and zeus special. Been just teleporting around the room using 3x dash and jabs
orchid rapids
Zeus' cast can get REALLY powerful for clear and even on the Hydra can absolutely chunk a bunch of their health
Yeah Artemis Dash is really strong right now and honestly could recommend it for most builds and weapons
I don't use the special a lot for spear unless I really don't want to get up close
but it hasn't been too much of a problem since spear already has really good range to begin with
I prefer using an upgraded cast for a ranged option rather than the spear special personally
So one reason why I prefer Ares attack on slower weapons like bow and shield is that it takes a second to proc
% damage increase boons like Athena's on the other hand make the spin very strong
Zeus attack is also very strong when you have something very fast like spear attack or sword attack w/ flurry blade
lean onyx
I suppose that makes sense. I want to try out more weapons though Im keen on finishing up the game or at least getting to the third floor. Spear just seems to be my forte, and finding the right combo that works would just make that significantly easier lol
orchid rapids
Yup, a lot of combos can work in interesting ways though I would recommend if you're looking for super optimal then go for Athena Divine Strike, Artemis Hunter Dash and give the spin move a chance (the regular attack is also solid with this build so there's some flexibility). Throw in Zeus cast in there as well if you get the chance. Apply Pom to Divine Strike when you can.
vapid mauve
if you are spamming normal spear attacks Zeus on the attack is the way to go. Percent increases like Athena aren't great because your base dps isn't great, but flat damage per hit adds up real quick, plus it's great crowd control.
ares works too if you just want to poke and run, but since it can only proc every couple seconds you don't get the most out of your high attack speed with the spear
fickle hull
Yeah. I agree
hasty parrot
I can't help but feel Hades lacks half the depth of bastion's combat
formal hill
Do consider that hades is in early access and bastion was a complete experience
vapid mauve
bastion had more weapons and enemy types, I wouldn't argue that the combat was deeper though
hasty parrot
I can't wrap my around so many game design choices in this game
I'm not talking content
formal hill
Hades has only been "out" to the public since Dec 6th, that's not even a public full month of edits and revisions
vapid mauve
it's been a bit since I played Bastion but I don't recall exceptional depth of combat as a major point for the game
hasty parrot
Egg, no matter how many weapons they add to Hades they won't ever have the flexibility of bastions dual wield + shield gameplay
vapid mauve
even with weapons having 2 or 3 attack types each, and cast on top of that?
hasty parrot
It opened window for specialization in weapons and this opened enemy design to call for different moves
fickle hull
It's honestly apples and oranges
hasty parrot
Yeah, except for the spear, none of the variant moves in Hades really cover different aspects
fickle hull
Not remotely true
formal hill
Each one has a different style and way to play, same as well bastions weapons
hasty parrot
Each weapon has one style, true
formal hill
What some people do with weapons, I wouldn't have even considered and I play vastly differently
hasty parrot
And that's it
That's why bastions dual wield + shield with parry causing stuns allowed for a lot more
formal hill
I love shield tossing and base my builds on it; other people DETEST the throw and only do melee
vapid mauve
idk, kind of sounds like you just dont like the game
formal hill
The weapons have options, and the gods will expand upon that
vapid mauve
which is fine
hasty parrot
Yeah, but there's no point alternating moves
fickle hull
That I agree with Raf on.
hasty parrot
People do throw when they get upgrades for it
Melee otherwise
You pick a style and do an entire run solely on that strat if you're playing optimally
fickle hull
Still not quite right. I don't like the Bull Rush, regardless if I get skills available for it.
formal hill
I mean you're speaking to someone who when she uses shield she only does throwing, occasional melee, cast, and I ignore the charge and melee usually
Spear? Ignore the spin, and I just toss ๐
fickle hull
I actually think that's not optimal, unless you kit yourself to only use 1 button.
I think spear is more rewarding to dash and kite and backstab.
Feels better imo
formal hill
So yeah, it's not the same as bastion, but that's what makes it hades.
/shrug it's an open, early access game. Things will change.
And @fickle hullyeah I gotta learn to experiment more; I'm not as pro as a lot of ppl in here
fickle hull
I also think this combat feels more dynamic than Bastion. But I can understand not being able to dual-weild makes it feel more shallow.
formal hill
I think if you dual wielded in hades it would be too much
You're zoomed out to such a small scale compared to how "intimate" bastion was re: camera closeness
fickle hull
It would be the same problem, imo. Get a legendary Special. Well now you press Y a lot. Only good buff is on the other weapon? Well I guess I'll take it, but I'll never use it because I'm already playing optimally with this weapon.
hasty parrot
Hades is a lot more frenetic but there's less intentionally to it
fickle hull
I don't see how playing with multiple weapons solves that problem.
formal hill
I mean that's how I played bastion lmao
fickle hull
idk, in boss fights I feel like I'm moving and positioning purposefully.
woven cave
is there a place to post bug videos?
errant narwhal
You can post them here, but you can report bugs in-game with F10. Maybe you could include a youtube link in your bug report...?
plucky oxide
I remember playing bastion. Shield and counter felt waaaay too strong, and I was quick to find one combo and just stick to that for the majority of the game. I'd find new weapons, and was upset when they replaced pieces of the kit I was used to. Bastion's game play offered enough customization that every player could find a playstyle that fit them. I also felt that Tonics were a very frustrating experience, and was stuck between never using them, and feeling like using them was cheating me out of challenging content.
hasty parrot
@plucky oxide Bastion was radically different with gods turned on
plucky oxide
I've done such things as well. Just relies a lot on your ability to counter and execute timing.
hasty parrot
Most games allow for clutch tatics but there's a difference in between optimal play being a single tactic
Bastion was easier. Hands down. Not a rogue like. Still it offered more depth in the sense where optimal play involved more decision making on how to alternate weapons among different enemies
plucky oxide
I really think bastion's dual weapon system felt very very nice. Each weapon was specialized to handle one style of play, and you were bound to find customizations among each to alter the weapon to your playstyle. With Hades on the other hand, your kit is wide, but your optimization is limited. Attack, special, dodge, retaliation, cast... you only really get one flavor to utilize, and that's not really great.
hasty parrot
Some of them had long reloads. Some had high ranged dps but not as high as melee DPS. Which was ok given you could have both
Hades optimal play means choosing a single weapon
Depending on booms and upgrades one of your moves will have higher dps
plucky oxide
Carbine in Bastion felt good because it was good. Bow in Hades feels good because you found a bunch of boons that up your attack, but you'll never find any use in its special.
hasty parrot
To the point there's no enemies where changing moves would increase dps
Bow in Hades feels very fine right now. Would be perfectly tuned with a slower reload speed if you could also carry a second weapon
And melees having lower dps than the bow as base damage is insane
Even simpler design choices in Hades could help with the button mashing
Iike adding small recovery times after moves (DMG adjusted so DPS stays the same)
So there's decision in using moves in different enemies
But most moves compete with each other
Rather than complement
You can't attack while your throw is out
Your specials have long lockdowns so if they don't do higher dps than regular attacks they'll never be worth it
And so on
plucky oxide
I really don't mind this combat system. In fact I prefer it over Bastions. Feels very nice to just be able to go all out. If you want moves to compete with each other in this game, then boons would have to equally scale with your cast, special, attack. That seems polar opposite to what they're going for, so far. I think you're making a lot of solid points as well, about slower paced and deliberate attacks. If you'd like to share this feedback, there's a channel made exactly for that.
hasty parrot
I was mostly looking to hear what other people thought about it
I'm still not that motivated to make a huge compilation of feedback given how much there is already
I know that they listen but I feel like it's just too much being said already
fickle hull
I understand what you mean though Raf. This game feels a lot less methodical.
I'm okay with it, and I don't know if the core upgrade progression loop works with a more plodding combat system, but I can see why people would come to the conclusion you have.
I definitely agree we need better reasons to use our myriad of tools, and not just dash + whatever the best Epic was
turbid needle
I think the bow special's only really effective use is against witches in Asphodel when you got the Athena boon for it and can deflect essentially the entire volley of projectiles.
You can't attack while your throw is out
Have Zag throw a punch for 1 dmg ^^
fickle hull
I think the dash is better, and would probably always choose that
But with double projectiles, point blank melts bosses
vapid mauve
did a couple tries at fresh save file runs, seems like it's specifically set up to prevent people from easily going too far. I went 13 chambers with out seeing any charon shops, healing wells or the purple mini-shops. So no way to heal. Also didn't see any Daedalus hammers on either run, that might have just been bad luck
I'll give it some more tries tomorrow, I can definitely get further, but depending on how hard they tried to stop long 1st runs it might not be a feasible challenge
tired pivot
Yeah, it seems like there is some run gating.
keen tangle
holy cow i just got another legendary
tired pivot
Nice.
vapid mauve
I figure if I can at least get past meg that will be a good showing considering the circumstances
keen tangle
is this just a thing that happens when you start to upgrade the mirror on those things
plucky oxide
The mirror effects rarity of tier 1 and their 2 boons being rare or epic. It does not seem to change drop chance of legendary boons. Those have a chance of appearing if you've acquired enough of one god's boons (both tier 1 and tier 2)
vapid mauve
sounds about right
poseidon has a bunch though now that I think of it. +wall slam damage, wall slam stun, increased rewards, and the consumable pile of stuff
athena has damage reduction, trap damage reduction, pile of money, barrier on damage and increased deflect damage
so maybe it's 4 tier 2 each
drawing a blank on Zeus, +lightning bounces, retaliate damage, ??? what else?
plucky oxide
Only three tiers, according to wiki. Tier 3 has only one boon and that's the legendary. I believe a tier is defined by 'having a certain boon in order for it to be added to the draw pool'
So in order to get Zeus' legendary, you need:
Tier 1: lightning strike, thunder flourish, or electric shot
Which unlocks the next tier of boon:
Tier 2: storm lightning
Which unlocks the legendary boon:
Tier 3: splitting bolt
vapid mauve
I see, I was just thinking of it as the first 4 as one tier, the others as the next and then the legendary on it's own
that makes sense though
plucky oxide
Basically, Tier 2 seems to be some effect that requires an initial ability to be added to the draw pool. In this case, it's the bouncing electric attack. If there is a source of that attack, tier 2 is unlocked.
Just like how you need to have a weakening move on Aphro before finding her 'deal more damage to weakened enemies' boon. That's logically a tier 2.
plucky oxide
Tier 1.
fickle hull
It would seem some would naturally progress
Like Poseidon
His dash uses increased knockback
worn fulcrum
tiers is probably not the technically correct way to put it, some boons just have other boons as prerequesites
vapid mauve
true, you can have cases of boons with no prereqs but which also don't unlock the higher tiers, so they are a bit wonky
keen tangle
oh wow @worn fulcrum I didn't realize that. Now I want to chart them all out
worn fulcrum
the wiki is pretty clear I think
plucky oxide
Just using the language that's on the wiki, haha.
vapid mauve
like you can get +rewards from poseidon without any other of his boons, but it won't (or shouldnt at least) unlock his knockback related things
keen tangle
oh i haven't read the wiki at all
worn fulcrum
yeah, tiers definitely works
but is not 100% precise for artemis boons, for instance
Clean Kill and Hide Breaker require [anything that lets you crit from Artemis boons], while Burst Shot requires True Shot, but both are tier 2
And then the legendary is only based on Clean Kill or Hide Breaker
vapid mauve
plucky oxide
That and Poseidon, who states that a tier 1 boon also has a prerequisite to unlock. So ๐คท
vapid mauve
๐ค
plucky oxide
Basically, you can get a god's legendary in as little as three boons. But you have to pick specific boons to get it. Check the wiki for the progression.
forest marsh
@vapid mauve I think Dino said he's reached Hydra on new save first runs, but don't quote me
night storm
why does the bow gives me +10% darkness?
stray radish
weapons get a random darkness bonus sometimes
rapid seal
anyone have tips on the hydra, i just cannot seem to beat it
everytime the half health stage kills me
stray radish
you can see which weapon has the bonus, its the purple ring swirling around it in Skelly's room
and uhhh no clue
versed harness
@rapid seal the easiest advice, keep playing and get more upgrades/get better. othewrwise i found that the spear with ares curse boon on attack did lots of work combined with some other survival like aphrodite's less dmg taken and then the blade storm cast boon from ares as well
rapid seal
hmm
versed harness
and also having 3 revives
rapid seal
yeah i felt that the curse boon is the most useful
versed harness
its really strong, especially if yo8 get the epic one
i typically use ares gift just to try and get it early
rapid seal
i found that im the best with the shield, so ive been using the defend to be able to live through the non-immune bits
versed harness
and then getting the further attack range from the hammer upgrade
ahh, the shield would be good for the pink needles probably
rapid seal
also whats the "proper" way to avoid the projectiles
versed harness
i hide right against the wall
rapid seal
ive just taken to dashing like a madman and it sometimes works
versed harness
the 3 black pillars
rapid seal
mmm
versed harness
with the tow destructable ones
rapid seal
yeah i guess i just need more practice
versed harness
hide on the "higher" pillar of either side and HUG it as tight as possible
rapid seal
i mean i beat meg after like 4 tries and im just getting annoyed that ive died like 30 times on the hydra with various weapons
rapid seal
never gotten there iwth the spear lmao
versed harness
it goes spear>bow>sword>shield
versed harness
i like range far to much
rapid seal
but the pillars thing will help
instead of dashing like a madman and dying by getting hit randomly
versed harness
if you use shield then just shield and hide, idk if the shield blocks those projectiles
neon bough
Bow is clearly stronger than the others I think is the general consensus
versed harness
ahh, yeah, i figured it seems really good
neon bough
Shield is "easier" to handle but a bit weaker IMO
versed harness
i tend to miss my power shots cause my fps gets bad on later rooms and i time it wrong as well
so the bow ends up being weaker
rapid seal
i found that in the first part, the shield is strong but then your shield flies into the sunset in asphodel and it hurts me
versed harness
yeah, i saw that in the suggestion thing
ive only beat meg with spear and bow so idk what thats like\
neon bough
I don't know much about the spear, never uses it, the spin seems strong but difficult to pull off
versed harness
i typically forget the spin exists
until i get a hammer and it says your spin charges faster
neon bough
Isn't the "cooldown" on Ares curse boon making it not that interesting with spear ?
versed harness
yeah, thats gonna stay as my i wanna go far combo, cause its kinda boring to play unless its new content
rapid seal
ares boon is just universally incredibly good isnt it
versed harness
cause with that boon you just hit dash away and back in hit and repeat
versed harness
i ahd a really fun combo with the bow of 100% more arrows for the special and the pushback from brosideon
you are just like untouchable
neon bough
Btw are they actually gonna implement four other weapons ?
versed harness
is there spots for four?
rapid seal
four?
rapid seal
i thought it was like 1 or 2
versed harness
ahh, i like the blade storm from ares
neon bough
Just bounce everywhere making enemies bounce everywhere
neon bough
^ this
versed harness
or aphrodites one is really good
rapid seal
and some rooms i just destroy completely and some rooms take forever
how do you use the aphrodite one
never figured it out
because it cuts your range to tiny, and if youre using the sword(like i was at the time) you just have abolutely no range
versed harness
the dash ability?
versed harness
oh no, i have never used her cast
neon bough
Haha ok sorry
But yeah is Asphodel I typically deal more damage by dashing than actually attacking
versed harness
and also i just found out the mirror perks for the bottom most one for the increased chance for epic boons caps at 25%
so thats 2500 darkness
id imagine the rare one is the same so 1250 darkness
neon bough
Good to know, thanks !
versed harness
i was curious just now so i refunded all of my points
also, is there any use for keys past unlocking the mirror perks and weapons?
i havent found one
but, ima go to bed, its late here, goodnight!
versed harness
so 2500 as well
kk
i wonder if we'll get a legendary one at some point, that caps at like 5 or 10
analog crystal
And no there isn't a use for keys, but tbf its early access so im sure they'll be a use later
idk
Because legendary isnt chance really
You need the prerequisite of a tier 2 boon I think
So theres no chance of a normal boon becoming legendary
versed harness
yeah, im not worried for future uses just current, i hope they dont just not add any use for keys
analog crystal
Like imagine getting Aphrodite's weak enemies can join ur side, but you have no way to make them weak
analog crystal
They're all unique boons rather than increasing the % damage of a standard boon
I really like them, even though others find them disappointing
versed harness
ok, yeah, that makes more sense then
the one i got was super cool, it made ares blade storms pull enemies in
neon bough
Some are anticlimactic
analog crystal
Mmm, Artemis has a really cool one
Where each hit spawns a tracking projectile
So on sword or spear when you spam attack each hit spawns one
I imagine with blade flurry its OPOP
neon bough
How good is blade flurry btw ? I don't usually chose it
analog crystal
I really enjoy blade flurry
How good it is you need to have good timings
As armour cant be interrupted if you're spamming attack you can get hit a lot
But if you dodge their attack you can do a bunch of damage
neon bough
Ok ! Thanks :)
grand cave
flurry blade was busted while lifedrinker was in the game because you could lifesteal any damage you took, without lifedrinker its very situational
i usually take the heavy damage swing instead
analog crystal
I swear you can only get 1 hammer per game? (unless i've been that unlucky with rng)
How can you get flurry and lifedrinker?
plush blaze
Also lifedrinker only heals on the thrust animation
Which flurry blade removes
@grand cave ๐ค
analog crystal
I quite liked lifedrinker before it was buffed and bugged, I hope they bring it back soon
Is it right to say 1 hammer per game @plush blaze ?
plush blaze
Yeah
grand cave
maybe my memory fails me as it tends to do
analog crystal
Imagine +100% damage per bounce and increased bounces on shield if you could get 2
rough condor
Rather imagine point blank + triple shot.
analog crystal
Double hammer, where the 2nd hammer is half as good might be a fair and interesting add
Or would that still be too OP
turbid needle
Anyone know the chances of getting a legendary boon? i've yet to see one.
analog crystal
You need a tier 2 boon (a boon that you get after getting a dash, attack, special or cast) and then get another boon from the same god
It's not really a chance based thing I don't think
reef iris
I had like 3-4 Zeus boons last run and didn't get a legendary
Soooo, doubt it is a consistent way to obtain it
analog crystal
What was your distribution of tier 1 and 2 boons?
reef iris
Attack, then +bounces, then dash
If I understand you correctly +bounces is a tier 2 boon
analog crystal
Yep
I think in that case
You could've gotten 4 possible boons in rotation, and you just got unlucky you didn't get it to show up
analog crystal
Im not 100% on that, but I see it like how when you first get a boon you can have either attack, special, dash and cast so you arent guaranteed dash if you're going for that
Yeah true, I guess it is chance based then
rough condor
a second hammer with 50% power would still be too op
marsh wedge
Would be fun tho, maybe allow an infinite run and remove some of those restrictions in the game?
paper zealot
Wanted a place to throw out a balance idea - I think this is the place to do it, so here goes;
My suggestion... is to give bosses armour
Hear me out
What I'm thinking of, is something similar to how enemy defences are handled in Octopath Traveller; when their armour breaks, they're vulnerable... but you can still do damage to their HP whilst it's up.
Translating this to Hades, bosses effectively would have two HP bars, both dropping at the same time when hit, but when their armour-HP drops to zero, they temporarily become vulnerable to Crowd-Control effects.
This can help in three ways; Sword and Shield users get a clear opportunity to wail on the boss without having to worry about dodging right back out after a second in melee, Boons that deal extra damage to Armour become relevant against bosses, and I don't have to feel ashamed about being addicted to Poseidon's knockback effects.
...Also, who doesn't want to watch a Hydra's head get wall-slammed repeatedly. Honestly.
analog crystal
Poseidon's boons are so much fun, not working against bosses is such a large downside. This... I like
Would you lower their HP replace the rest with armour, so same max total
Or would you keep their HP the same and just add armour so a higher max total
paper zealot
Probably keep the HP the same, because as I said, you'd still be lowering their HP whilst doing damage to their Armour
So Bows don't have to worry about not being able to capitalize on the opportunity nearly as much compared to other weapons - they can still do what they do normally
analog crystal
While bows wouldn't have to worry, couldn't it also make it too easy for the other weapons
Being able to tear through them
paper zealot
That'll probably be when the temporary part kicks in
Whether it's just a timed thing, or if it'll be based on how much HP they lose, that might be up to Supergiant to decide, specifically, but afterwards they can just knock the player back like invulnerability oft does
And if the player gets knocked into a trap that's their own fault.
analog crystal
Lmaooo, I can't wait to see clips of people screaming at being knocked down to 1hp cus of lava
paper zealot
๐
analog crystal
I feel like they could add boons that do extra damage to health (a less % than armour due to it hitting more enemies)
Called like flesh piercer or smthn
paper zealot
Maybe if such a change was made
Otherwise it might as well be called 'Do more damage to bosses - the Boon'.
dim jacinth
Yknow that idea is very cool but the thing is with armour is that the boons are overpowered for that reason. It doesn't affect those without armour and one of those enemies being bosses. So for that to work you'd have to tween armour boons. I like the way the game is, but the whole crowd-control idea being implemented does sound cool. I think a way to work around it is calling it something else. Aka like a stagger bar or something. That way armour boons don't affect it but you still have the chance to use crowd control against the bosses
analog crystal
It could be like quick time events in god of war
That you sometimes get
And stuns the boss for an allotted amount of time
Every 33% health
analog crystal
Although hades doesn't really feel like it'd have quick time due to how zoomed out the camera is
dim jacinth
But it does take away some of the skill aspect of the game
analog crystal
True, maybe it could be quick time that you can actually fail and is hard
paper zealot
I ah, also don't think such cinematic spectacles would be the kind of thing that people would want to sit through for dozens/hundreds/thousands of times
analog crystal
So the stun is a reward for being skillful
It doesnt have to be a whole scene
It could just be zag slicing at megs tendons or something to give 3s of stun
In 1 quick impactful quick cut, that is cool but not taking up the pace of the gameplay
dim jacinth
Ohh, yknow it could be like in fighting games. Where the bar (stagger bar) starts empty. And the more hits you do the more the stagger bar fills up instead of it working like hp/armour. And certain abilities do certain amount of stagger points. Since it doesn't pertain to your damage, even if you have a bad build if you're good you can still stagger the boss.
paper zealot
Could also work
Though with the Fighting games that have it, the bar quickly degrades if the pressure's not kept up
How would that be changed for Hades?
dim jacinth
I don't think it would need to be changed. I think it's a reward for people being able to dodge attacks and still be able to be on the offensive
Of course the devs would have to tweak and test themselves ot see how fast the bar goes down
Idk bout that :^)
paper zealot
Fair point
wide hill
I've just started the game for a few hours and met Magaera.
So which weapon is thee best against her?
forest marsh
That's a loaded question ๐
next ether
forest marsh
The best weapon for you is the one you're most comfortable with. The best weapon as consensus in the community is... touchy. But I would say bow, as would many others
wide hill
I've tried shield and spear as they are my fav weapon but still lost though
forest marsh
All weapons are viable at this point, it's just preference
next ether
Best way to fight with shield is wait for her dash attack, dash in, hit 3 times, run away
forest marsh
Regarding stagger on bosses, I quite like that idea! You could tie that in with another oft-requested feature from the community, which is to have imbedded bloodstones have some sort of effect on enemies. So in this example, that could be increasing the stagger per bloodstone imbedded, or something similar
General advice for any weapon with the Meg fight usually goes like this:
โข Learn her patterns โ when she's going to dash, spin attack, summon adds, et cetera
โข You can side step her dash attack and then you have a couple seconds where she's standing still that you can get a bunch of backstab attacks in
โข Use you dash wisely, don't just panic dash around the room
โข Avoid doing the Benny Hill routine of running away while Meg chases you, it just wastes time. Let her catch up, start whatever attack animation, and then dash away to the minimum safe distance. She'll always have a period of safe time to attack afterwards
โข Ignore the adds unless they're overwhelming you or you have sufficiently strong attacks to deal with them in a hit or two
โข Be patient, don't get greedy with your attacks
formal hill
Oof I'm so sorry
Yeah I tend to get hit by one and then 6 more before I can move
Doesn't feel fun ):
plush blaze
It's frustrating because the only way to get out of it is to mash dash
And it's just a question of "do your mashes line up with the tiny window between each spike"
formal hill
(if I don't reply I'm in a car trying not to be motion sick, not ignoring)
plush blaze
I usually manage to get away with 3 or less hits, but this time I got hit 6 times and another time like 5
limber copper
you have two choices, either be behind the black wall, or be in the process of dashing between his head so that he's firing the wrong way
plush blaze
I know
limber copper
but his windup time decreases with every quarter health lol
fickle hull
We talking about the purple spikes?
formal hill
I've been behind the wall and still get hit
limber copper
it becomes impossible to react
hoary jewel
Do we know if they intend to up the maximums on mirror skills as they do updates?
limber copper
you have to be exactly in the middle
plush blaze
Also a problem with both meg and hydra is the invulnerability lasting to the end of the current attack
vapid mauve
I imagine there will be new mirror upgrades at some point
limber copper
or the last one gets you
formal hill
Guh.
vapid mauve
otherwise people will max it, or at least have all the most important stuff, too early
plush blaze
I've just finished maxing the penultimate upgrade, working on the last one now
vapid mauve
You can dash through the wall towards the hydra as he's finishing the shot spam, that way you won't get hit by the last 1 or 2 that curve around the outside
hoary jewel
That's my thought as well @vapid mauve. That the current max values (for things like number of casts) will probably "unlock" once more content comes out
vapid mauve
yeah, some things would get silly if they upgrade too high, but there are some that could go further and they can add entirely new ones
plush blaze
I hope there aren't any more mirror upgrades tbh
fickle hull
I hope there are some.
plush blaze
It has enough straight upgrades as it is, more weapons and "more things to unlock" is much better for a roguelike
Like, things which pop up in the run
Instead of just adding more bonuses to zag
to grind for
vapid mauve
it'd be nice if there were exclusive choices on the mirror, so it's not entirely making your character stronger, but also an element of designing a build
hoary jewel
Given the blank locations in the weapons room, I think it's a safe bet we'll seem more weapons. I'm personally hoping for dual-wield knives
vapid mauve
yah, more weapons is a given, more keepsakes as well
hoary jewel
Hey, bear in mind that not everyone will find the game easy. I, for one, don't. ๐
fickle hull
Bonus backstab damage!
hoary jewel
And they should probably have at least one more ranged weapon of some kind...
formal hill
Well it looks like there's at least 2 more planned, there's empty slots in the weapon room @hoary jewel
hoary jewel
Aye, @formal hill I mentioned those "blank spots" up above. nodnod
formal hill
Oh pardon, I'm skimming to avoid motion sickness while travelling home
hoary jewel
No worries at all! ๐
I get that, too - I remember being a kid and not having any trouble reading in the car. Now? Uh uh, no way
formal hill
Ugh Ive had it since I was a kid; I'm a mod in a huggggeee server so I'm looking in there as well as in here
So my body is slowly going "hey. Hey. No."
So I'm only skimming
fickle hull
What ranged weapon would make sense in the context of ancient Greece?
worn fulcrum
Net + gladius?
forest marsh
I could be wrong, but that's a Roman thing, isn't it?
fresh vortex
Hello, has anyone asked about a coop mode for Hades ?
probably not the good channel
forest marsh
There are no plans for co-op or multiplayer
fresh vortex
That's too bad, I think this could be lot of fun
forest marsh
From #hades-faq
Hades is a single-player game. We have no plans to add multiplayer, as we have been building the design and narrative of Hades with a solo experience in mind.```Should have read that
analog crystal
I would love a grimoire weapon, where each spell is dependant on boons
Also @limber copper its not impossible to predict the spikes, the hydra head always moves towards the middle of the room before firing off a volley
paper zealot
It's either that, or the lunge
...For either you should probably be behind cover, anyway
crude tangle
is there anywhere I could go to see the common upgrades people go to for the different weapons?
I'm pretty comfortable with what I want in a bow build but other that I'm just doing bad on runs and feel I need some guidance
paper zealot
Part of me wants to bet Reddit
pastel jolt
or, uh. here.
primal folio
yeah, what weapon are you looking for the common upgrades for?
crude tangle
discord usually isn't the best way to learn that stuff though, involves waiting around for it to come up in chat. was hoping there was a reddit post or something.
Really just common build ideas for sword, shield and spear
I have won as bow and get what I'm doing with it but never sure what kind of build to go for with the other weapons
primal folio
I think uhh- artemis Dash is a big one for Sword, since you get the crit slash and you usually use your dashes a lot on sword builds
Special for sword is possibly the strongest special in the current armory for AOE control so a boon that takes advantage of that (Zeus, Aprhodite, or Ares, or the 200% Hammer range upgrade)
crude tangle
I should be using the swords special more then, I feel like I hardly use it
primal folio
yeah sword special is. Fantastic for clearing out hordes
I haven't done a spear run yet (I'm on a borrowed laptop atm) but as for Shield, shield bashes deal a lot of cleave damage
so something like ares' curse means you can deal a lot of damage in one clean line
crude tangle
that makes sense
primal folio
daedleus' special upgrade for shield is (as far as I've seen) agreed to be kind of a downgrade, you get the shield to return to you after one hit
which like, makes ranged poke faster, but it's bad for spreading any boon effects
and you have to spam them down a lot more to get any ranged damage into hordes
crude tangle
thanks for all this
primal folio
np! this is just what I've noted though, so feel free to experiment with variants and see what works for you
paper zealot
When it comes to bow runs, I've often considered either Ares or Poseidon to be good picks for a primary attack boon
Ares for the massive delayed damage, since the rhythmic timing to it can be almost matched by the timing needed for a Power Shot
And Poseidon for keep-away tactics
primal folio
shield and dash boons don't usually go together well in my experience- since shield bash is an equally effective way of blocking-moving
fluid moat
So right now I have successfully worked out 3 types of builds that you can use on any weapon;
-
Primary Attack build; you take whatever trinket gets you the boon which maximizes your attack damage, right now that is Athena. Then keep Dash slot open until you get Artemis dash; spend Poms on the primary attack boon to maximize damage. Daedalus things:
Sword: slice speed increase, the 400% damage increase and only chop
Spear: spin charge rate or spin radius
Bow: triple shot, 250% power shots
Shield: bull rush charges instantly, damage reduction
-
cast build; start with Artemis and pick up the cast buff, try to get as many Artemis boons as possible that affect cast to get the legendary. Best are extra projectiles.
Daedelus: anything that reduces damage or helps break armor -
Dash meme build - get Zeus trinket, get thunder dash, try to get as many Pom Upgrades on thunder dash and things to increase max health, make sure to have Quick Reflexes +1/+2. Aphrodite or Athena for primary attack boon for survivability.
Run shield for the 20% damage reduction Daedalus and the OP invul from bull rush
Those builds almost always get me a win
crude tangle
thanks for that
fluid moat
Cthonic vitality and quick reflexes are the most powerful mirror upgrades right now, for post Meg trinket change harpy feather duster
If you need surviveability
No problem
๐๐
Extra note on the cast build; Pom upgrades are EXTREMELY potent
they are what make it insane
quaint gale
getting an epic upgrade on that cast will instantly make me shift my build to a cast build every time
it's just so much damage
night storm
is there any shied build where assault flight is useful? (your special is 50% faster and returns to you after a single impact)
paper zealot
I'd like to say something Poseidon-themed, for reliable knockbacks on a single target... otherwise, maybe Ares? Easier to time the delayed damage repeatedly if you don't have to wait 5 seconds for it to come back
night storm
yeah, it seems okay with curse. it's probably only useful against bosses, where you only have a single target
paper zealot
Mhm
Oh, I suppose Athena's might work too - for easier directed deflecting
tired rose
Question, does the skull earring only last for a certain number of encounters/rooms? I used it through Tartarus and see it's "Expired...for now" after beating Meg, so I'm forced to switch keepsakes
analog crystal
@crude tangle athena on special due to its long animation is busted imo
And @tired rose it lasts forever as long as you're under 40% health
The reason the keepsake is locked is due to you switching keepsakes
Each keepsake can only be used once each run and when you swap cannot be reequipped
Im guessing this is to stop infinite cerb heal
tired rose
Ohhhh I missed that. Good to know, thanks!
vapid mauve
on a related note, if I have one of the god's keepsakes and keep it equipped, will I be guaranteed their boon at the start of Asphodel?
paper zealot
No
vapid mauve
dang
analog crystal
Has anyone confirmed that the boons are actually stronger when you have a trinket of that god btw?
paper zealot
Idk
If I get an Epic, I'd just assume it's my +25% chance for one kicking in, at this point
analog crystal
Not that, the trinkets say "make boons from this god stronger" I think
Not more likely to get epic
or is that the effect it gives
paper zealot
I'd assume that's what it means by 'stronger' - by having a better rarity
Because otherwise... haven't seen it
And I swap trinkets a lot
analog crystal
I swap weapons a lot (dark thirst) but choose my trinkets according to weapons
slim spoke
Perhaps it sways the boost multiplier from 2x-2.5x to more of a 2.2x to 2.5x, for epics
vapid mauve
it says stronger but what it means is higher chance for rare / epic
the numbers on the boon aren't changed
analog crystal
Damn
I would like if it gave the base boon a boost in effect rather than just chance
paper zealot
Like if the God's boon was given a free upgrade?
analog crystal
Yeah like lets say zeus dash does 30 damage, with trinket it does 33 instead and each upgrade is better
So it standalone makes it better rather than the same effect being accompanied by luck
Idk
slim spoke
I would like the upgrades to be stronger, each pom gives a flat bonus it seems, regardless of tier it started as
like the curse is always +20 dmg per pom
even if it started at 40 or 80 dmg
analog crystal
I think the rarity increase by the pom amount
Not too sure as I havent tested
But thats what I think
So it'd make sense to increase by the same amount
If you think of epic as boon lv 3 or w/e
paper zealot
Well at least it means that those who don't get lucky aren't further screwed later down the line, eh?
slim spoke
I can see that, though the numbers aren't flat, they have some fluctuations
analog crystal
yeah ive noticed that
paper zealot
'Oh, you got this ability standard, now it's a terrible idea to ever upgrade it'
analog crystal
I mean luck kiiiinda does effect it still, I do better the more epics i have i find. I wonder why.... ๐ haha
Speaking of, aside from the other olympian trinkets, what kind of keepsakes would you want?
slim spoke
more darkness, +20% or something
paper zealot
Daedalus Hammer trinket
analog crystal
:0
I would love alternate upgrades to daedalus hammer that effect the weapon u already have boons on
paper zealot
Also
I'd save the increases to darkness-gain for difficulty modifiers, similar to Bastion or Transistor
...I have no idea if Pyre has that too
analog crystal
I really like that
slim spoke
what do ppl do once they reach Asphodel, for the trinkets? do you swap to something or ignore it most of the time?
analog crystal
It does
Titan stars
I swap
What I do usually
Is run the featherduster, beat meg, swap to cerb and heal up, swap to bone earring and head out
slim spoke
Safety build i see
I need a really trash run, like sword with no hammer, to even have a chance to lose to meg
fluid moat
Yeah 1st area use whatever god boon you want to get early,2nd area survivability with the feather duster or skull earrings
analog crystal
I run +20% at distant on the bow
slim spoke
I kinda wish that if you swapped to a diff god's trinket, it would act like the start of the run again, guaranteeing that god's boon next
fluid moat
Yeah I think that got posted in feedback
slim spoke
I've had good success with running like, literally nothing but curse on the bow
+350% dmg on close range helps too
but 180+ dmg curse tears up anything
slim spoke
works fairly well with spread too. that was a fun run, CC for days
analog crystal
The delay after using the bow special i feel is a little too long still
slim spoke
i think it just deals no dmg. knockback is the only thing I feel it's useful for since curse has a cooldown
paper zealot
The only weapon boon I always want when I'm running a specific weapon... is the faster swinging speed for the Sword
I don't care if the other options are more viable, I like being FAST
slim spoke
I would probably run sword even if that upgrade was just "remove lunge"
the whole not being able to dash thing is a real run killer, I've taken so much extra dmg becuase I can't dash out of it fast enough
analog crystal
Blade flurry is soooo much fun
slim spoke
plenty of weps have that problem, but I feels it's moreso on the sword
slim spoke
on the 3rd strike you jab forward
analog crystal
Oooo, I see
slim spoke
it locks you out of dashing for like, .25s
which is well enough time for something from the side to hit yo
or an armored enemy to strike
analog crystal
I can't tell if SGG did it on purpose with the whole dash delay to make it hard
Or
If its just idk
slim spoke
Idr exactly, but I think if right as a jab, or that slam attack version, do a special immediately after, I can dash sooner
but it might have been my imagination
analog crystal
If you dash and attack it removes dash delay and only has attack delay which is shorter
slim spoke
mmm. I also noticed that the sword's special upgrade, dash towards enemy than use special, if you really quickly tap Q, before the dash ends, you don't even use the special attack, you just dash once
like, that's not cool
I did report it though, not knowing if anyone else did ofc >_>
analog crystal
Ooo rip
I just usually go attack build
Or I have athena on special
Which makes u invinc for so long
slim spoke
yeah that is a nice effect. Similarly Poseidon knockback on it can work well for making space
analog crystal
Yeah, the true essence of a fat yeet
Knocking enemies into lava with poseidon is the most satisfying kill imo
slim spoke
has anyone else used the Poseidon legendary? the delayed 2nd knockback? I noticed that besides pushing the enemies miles away (sometimes good, sometimes bad) it doesn't ever do a wall slam on the enemies
like, I got it for the sole purpose of getting 2 wall slams per hit
and it failed me
paper zealot
I've found it... inconsistent
Especially when it kicks in in the middle of an enemy's leap
analog crystal
I've found that wall slams in general are inconsistant
slim spoke
^
paper zealot
Oh definitely
analog crystal
And that armoured enemies cant be wall slammed which feels a little cheap
I get bosses
Due to stun
paper zealot
Even against a lot of basic enemies if you're not using hit-stun attacks
analog crystal
But armoured enemies suckss
slim spoke
well they do get knocked back, jsut a lot less, like maybe only 33% as much
paper zealot
The big brutes that slowly move towards you? No hit-stun, no wall-slam, even if they're already next to the wall before you hit them
slim spoke
alas you usually have to dash away from the bloodless else you take that hit from their huge jump at you
I swear that thing has a hitbox that's twice as big as it should be
vapid mauve
armored enemies definitely can be knocked back, not sure if it's reduced
paper zealot
I swear the Bloodless can change their lunge direction in the middle of your dash
analog crystal
I didnt mean knocked back
vapid mauve
the slam dancers and bomb throwers sometimes are immune to knockback, when they are jumping
slim spoke
the enemies can definitely change attack direction on a dime. Noticed it mainly with bloodless and brutes or w.e they're called
vapid mauve
yah, bloodless are no joke
slim spoke
flashbacks of the lava boat arena in Asphodel
paper zealot
...Yeah that part makes the surfing-island section always 'fun'
analog crystal
Idm the lavaboat with the right perks
without it
Dashing through all the immune enemies trying to get to the blue gems
Takes more hp off me than id like to admit
slim spoke
I very rarely get out without taking like, at least 40 dmg. need a really strong/well suited build
paper zealot
It truly is hell 
slim spoke
mostly from trying to dash from one side to the other and getting clobbered by bloodless
bu-dum tiss...
analog crystal
Its a wee bit small, when armoured enemies cant be wall slammed especially
One issue I have, and idk if its intended
slim spoke
let's not forget the immunity crystals making it even harder. armored and immune = no knockback and no dmg, and no stunning to cancel their attack
analog crystal
Is bouncing projectiles bouncing to immune enemies
And auto target targetting immune enemies
If somethings immune
I dont wanna target it
slim spoke
if I have zues cast I generally lob it in the pile and hope for the best on hitting the blue crystals
slim spoke
I turned that off before I even started playing ._.
analog crystal
Do you play with mouse or controller
slim spoke
mouse
analog crystal
Im controller
slim spoke
fair enough.
slim spoke
yeah, on a diff game my friend picks 8 directional over free aim for controller because of similar issues
analog crystal
have you played wizard of legend?
slim spoke
I've not
crude tangle
might have to get that game then
analog crystal
Its very fun
Each magic is unique
And you build a run starting with 4 chosen magic and picking up magic on the way
With cloaks and keepsakes u can pick up as you go along and start with
I would recommend watching NorthernLion play it to see if you want to get it
slim spoke
reminds me of Magicka. you got like, a bunch of elements, and combining them differently makes a diff spell
analog crystal
Can you post links in this chat?
slim spoke
shrug
