i forgot how to find them
#h1-builds-and-combat
vapid mauve
so it's pretty easy to miss
royal charm
👍
pastel jolt
top right corner, lil push-pin icon
royal charm
gots it
thanks
is it just me or once you get past tartarus it gets a ton harder with the armor
errant narwhal
yes, most of the enemies from that point are armored
royal charm
yeah..even with weakness or armor piercing..seems to make little difference
*using bow mostly
autumn yarrow
if they were testing armor, I was pretty okay with it, but asphodel was over armored
it's a bit better now
hard holly
I like it tbh
Armoured enemies are more interesting
Alright then, time for the Hydra with a pretty good shield build
Huh
Shield might actually be bad now
autumn yarrow
shield is pretty bad imo
or at least
just slower than all the others
if u are okay with slower runs I think it's pretty good
hard holly
Its mostly that I had 5 levels of Athenas rare boon
Epic Hunters dash
Crit damage up
20% damage reduction
sacred fern
The thing is, the shield's defensive options make the others seem a little imbalanced
hard holly
And something else
And I still had to burn through 3 death defiances to beat the hydra
sacred fern
That and any form of Witch becomes easier due to the Q of the shield
autumn yarrow
or knock back on attack and a long distance, low delay special
hard holly
Witches are easy anyway
autumn yarrow
I mean if the special is 1 shotting too many things I can get behind that, but I don't think just being defensive is imbalanced
sacred fern
The ones in Asphodel can give you trouble in big numbers
autumn yarrow
because you won't have enough damage for bosses, evident through hydra
sacred fern
Trues, but with ares, you make make the shield throw powerful with the delayed damage
Thats how i beat the Hydra first time
autumn yarrow
sadly I feel like that's the only path
hard holly
The only dangerous enemies for me now are bloodless in large numbers, and armoured louts
And eh, the ones in Asphodel are still really easy
sacred fern
Ares and Zues pretty much break the shield trhow, and in addition to either Artemis or Athena upgrading your cast
I had a hard time with the Bloodless, but you wait for them to attack then dash away
dusky summit
Poseidon special is pretty meh once you arrive in asphodel, you don't want to knock a shielded witch too far and loose your shield in the process
hard holly
I dont agree that Ares or Zeus break the shield throw
More accurately, they make it usable
Not even good tbh
sacred fern
If you get a rare augment for your shield from Ares or Zeus, then I feel the game become so much easier to the point I don't even care about any more powers
dusky summit
But it's slow tho
dusky summit
Spear + Artemis Dash 
autumn yarrow
I just want to say I'm afraid of supergiant falling into a trap balancing the game too quickly damage wise before they actually add enough content to truly evaluate strength of weapons
sacred fern
That I can agree with. I got Zeus upgrade for spear special and just watched the enemies die
granite sentinel
even for spamming chain lightning sword main attack (esp with flurry blade) or spear are better
dusky summit
Why bother using the spear special at all, i don't get it. I find Quicktemper + Charged Attack superior in every way
granite sentinel
+500% vs armor is p nice and for kiting. It's not better then the charge but it has its uses
dusky summit
I guess that's true
granite sentinel
also in most situations you get one backstab out of it which ups it's damage by a bit
turbid needle
Artemis Dash is so bad
hard holly
2 upgrades that literally dont do anything for me
dusky summit
lol
pastel jolt
or did you get a GOOD hammer and you just don't know it yet. checkmate.
hard holly
It is better then charge in some situations
dusky summit
Artemis dash is the greatest in the game
hard holly
Its crit on dash attacks and crit after special
I have Hunters Dash
I literally will never need either
And the last one upgrades, well, my special
hard holly
I mean I took the special one because range up is nice
Ye
But its not what I wanted
Give me World Splitter dammit
autumn yarrow
artemis dash is bad on sword
dusky summit
Well
granite sentinel
at least it's utility
dusky summit
I haven't found what's good on sword yet
autumn yarrow
imo, sword benefits from attacking more
dusky summit
i usually run full dash attacks when i have to run with a sword
autumn yarrow
zeus's chain lightning is my wet dream
granite sentinel
except world splitter but the issue there is relying on one particular boon/hammer combination
hard holly
This is actually good
autumn yarrow
with flurry lightning
hard holly
Wish it didnt slow down the game so much after each use though
Nah, Artemis Dash is great on sword
granite sentinel
yeah the recovery time feels to long
hard holly
Its less the recovery time
granite sentinel
especially because you just knocked everything around you back
autumn yarrow
no god forbid you miss somehow you will get smacked and can't dodge out of the way
it does both
uneven shuttle
Crit on dash is good. Let's you pick up a non-Artemis dash, at least.
Also,back to the whole "quick slash / world splitter should be totally separate weapons because they play so differently": seems some people misunderstood my point. I don't so much care about how powerful it is, as I do about mechanical differences.
To me, it's like having an upgrade that turns the spear into the bow, instead of the bow being a separate option.
hard holly
Man
I hate the ending lag on thrust
Makes it hard to dodge when you got to that part of the combo chain
wicked gull
Everytime I get sword I hope for the 400% damage and dropping it down to a 1 hit move 😛
turbid needle
I came across this last night, but haven't seen it since. So I am hoping someone can confirm my memory
I got a Hades boon, and put it on my Cast...Spinning Blades. Then I got a Artemis boon, and put it on my cast as well, so I had Homing Spinning Blades...I am not imagining that right? That is a thing?
uneven shuttle
Those are both Ares boons.
turbid needle
Ares, right. Not Hades....Thanks mate
hard holly
So uh
Did they buff the knockback on Poseidons boons?
Because my enemies are flying at mach 3 it seems
Surely this isnt intended
vapid mauve
it varies based on the quality of the boon, did you get an epic one?
south comet
haha it seems pretty crazy I know
when I use the shield and get knockback on attacks i just launch people
I love it
hard holly
Ok, so which enemies do damage when you knock them into another enemy
Only Numbskulls?
south comet
huh, I hadn't even noticed that
hard holly
I did
Knocked a numbskull into another one
Got damage
Unfortunately, only Numbskulls
uneven shuttle
@vapid mauve are you sure about that? Last I checked, rarity had no effect on knockback velocity.
hard holly
Apparently it does
Because my enemies fly at rapid speeds
And they didnt use to when I had a common boon
uneven shuttle
Did they mention anything about it in patch notes? I can't check files ATM, but I kinda doubt they would do that.
What weapon / ability are you using, by the way
vapid mauve
I'm almost certain, but I admit I don't have any concrete proof on hand
hard holly
Sword
vapid mauve
I'll do some science
uneven shuttle
@vapid mauve check TraitData.lua, it would tell you. Last I checked, all Poseidon boons used 2000 or 2500 for knockback velocity (in some cases via the default value of a weapon, in PlayerWeapons.xml).
vapid mauve
odd, print screen is only working for me in-game if I'm paused
this vexes me
guess I'll record instead
pastel jolt
print screen's a little janky if you play fullscreen
vapid mauve
oh ok, ill just go windowed then
pearl willow
yuck, that was the ugliest hydra kill ive had in a while. only 2 are and 2 poseidon boons in the whole run.
ares*
autumn yarrow
if you took ares's attack or his blade stuff it's all pretty good
poseidon's cast and dash should be okay as well
after that there's just never getting hit :^)
hard holly
That was the ugliest Hydra Kill I had too
Im pretty sure most of the damage came from me standing in lava
On the other hand, I got to yeet the boneless all over Asphodel
That was fun
vapid mauve
poseidon is not cooperating...
seems like I'm stuck on a specific rng seed, I guess it's set up like that to discourage giving up on the 1st room til you get what you want
spark socket
i got like epics from the 1st rooms
i do wish there was like a restart the run button
tho i guess then maybe its too convient for the user to reset until they get exactly what they want
Binding of isaac does have a quick reset run though
vapid mauve
oh, I don't have permission to post pictures
well, suffice to say I did science and the epic poseidon boon was blatantly way more knockback than the rare version
@uneven shuttle I could pm the results to you if you are interested
pearl willow
I have no evidence to support this other than my own observations but it feels to me like knockback velocity is increased by the damage of the hit causing it. And potentially is even higher for dash attacks or attacks with smaller aoe.
copper sandal
who's more annoying to fight against, posiedon or artemis?
hard holly
You mean in the god challenge thing?
Depends
If you have a revenge boon, like Zeus or Ares
Always fight Poseidon
Their dashes that knock you back do no damage, but trigger revenge boons
Otherwise, theyre about the same
copper sandal
oh god artemis buffed creeps blink
hard holly
And Poseidon buffed Creeps dash into you with knockbacks
unkempt spruce
Artemis enemies actually get the same dash you do, it just doesn't scale to their size, but you can see the green wisp depending on the angle. It happens really fast.
hard holly
Its odd that 3 seperate gods just have the enemies blink
hard holly
We dont know if its intended, but currently that happens, yes
People already gave feedback on that though
copper sandal
that was such an embarassing end to my run
"Wait a second, I can just shoot those things back at it!" dead
granite sentinel
That happened to me too xD
Deflecting those might make the fight to easy
But then again crit dash triple shot exists
wispy moon
What boon makes the spear spin charge faster?
forest marsh
It's not a boon, it's Quick Spin from the Daedalus Hammer upgrade
lethal goblet
I tried the same thing deflect the hydra bullets luckily I did spin dashing so I did't get hit
uneven shuttle
@vapid mauve Hey, sorry for the late response. No need to PM; I believe you, just can't check why it works that way for a few days. My guess is that the rarity multiplier is getting applied to the knockback value, which should be sorta testable: an Epic would have more than twice the knockback of a normal version of a boon if that's the case. I'd also be interested to see which boons have knockback that scales with rarity, and which don't (my guess is that the dash and the cast probably aren't affected, while attack and special would be). I wonder if poms affect knockback too...
hard holly
From what Ive had in my run, they dont
Definitely seemed like attack boons knockback scales with rarity
My epic boon caused me to yeet enemies all over the place
vapid mauve
based on my crude measures epic seemed like around 50% more knockback than rare, so 100% more than normal wouldn't be farfetched
yeah, shield normal + epic boon is hilarious levels of knockback because the shield's base effect also applies
finished a 1 boon run. Tempted to go for 0 boons but I fear it would be really tedious
hollow totem
How do you do single boon runs
Like even if you avoided rooms
Cause ive done those and ive only gotten a 3 boon minimum
vapid mauve
I got lucky
had a chaos gate the only time after the 1st where I would have been forced onto a boon
for a zero boon attempt I would probably just have to take things on special and cast then not use those to mimic the experience
wicked gull
huh. I have had the easiest run I've ever done and I was surprised by it. started with epic Artemis cast, got the boon to make extra arrows with an upgrade in each and the 4 sec drop cast crystals and just mowed through everything. What weapon did you use for your 1 boon run?
hollow totem
Prolly bow?
Thats the best base weapon rn
Ive been doing 0 mirror upgrade runs
Its rough
wicked gull
oh wow really? That's funny since that's the weapon I liked the most when I started but avoid it almost altogether now
yeah not getting the extra health per room sounds brutal
hollow totem
But yeah adding a transistor supporting boon system
Go thumbs up that in feedback
That sounds amazing
👌
vapid mauve
nah I buffed the hell out of it
lvl 6 by the end, +46 damage per hit
which I guess might not sound like a lot, but on the rapid fire, weak spear hits it's over quadruple damage
formal hill
hey guys! I just wanted to check in here to see if anyone else has the same issue I do with the Hydra fight (I think it might be a bug thing, or I just suck : p ) is there a main place to talk about that with people?
(if so please feel free to ping me!)
south comet
Don't worry, this is the right place to talk about it!
Unless you'd like to leave feedback specifically about it, but if you are here to discuss the fight then you're in the right place
formal hill
it's mostly I think a bug might be happening but its hard to tell; no one else I know plays the game ^w^;;;
I've made it to the hydra maybe like... 3 or 4 times, and I can't seem to get a decent way to protect myself from its' purple projectiles? My friends mentioned hiding behind the pillars but it feels like they just.... go straight through all of them : (
this is especially a problem when I hit it's second stage after defeating 2 other heads.
I try dashing, I try hiding behind whatever's not destroyed, but it looks like it clips right through 😰
so i was like "maybe I should.........ask other people 😂 "
south comet
I think the projectiles are working as intended right now, but I have only made it to the Hydra a few times XD. I know that some people say walking and dodging back in forth between each shot can help you weave through, but I'm sure there are others here who know better than I!
formal hill
I also seem to get stun locked when hit by one but that might be a punishment thing for messing up : p
dense holly
ye. it staggers a bit
formal hill
oof, a bit is an understatement, i worry my game freezes 😂
mossy prairieBOT
Thanks for reporting a game freeze! The most common solution to this issue can be found in #hades-tech-fixes-old
dense holly
you just need to learn its pattern
formal hill
yeah, I guess so, I think ive only gotten there 3-4 times, but I did make it to its third (?????) stage where it called out 4 other heads?
which is the farthest I've ever got.
dense holly
took me some tries to win it without taking too much damage. when the head goes back (it may be about to send out missiles) you have 2 choices
-dash fast and hide behind a pillar (I usually go for hits on the head when she is throwing the last 1, extra free damage)
-jiggle dash between each side of her head
formal hill
jiggle dash? 😂
dense holly
she will throw all the missiles one way and you can bash her so much from the other side
formal hill
ohhhh
dense holly
ye, right beside her head
formal hill
man i usually stay far back to give myself more room....
formal hill
but then i cant hide enough behind the pillars bc it looks like they just noom right through
dense holly
the last few ones sometimes are too curvy and may hit you if u're not completely hugging the wall
dense holly
that's why I started going for hits on her when she's throwing the last ones
formal hill
well considering ive had it for like, a week and a half I suppose, getting to hydra reliably is enough for me 😂
its just surviving all those little bullets OTL
formal hill
yeah most of my good luck has been with that,-- wait does the shield have a passive block?
formal hill
YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO NAGATO
dense holly
if it's in the correct line of the projectiles/attacks
formal hill
!!!! I didnt REALIZE I THOUGHT.....I THOUGHT IT WAS JUST FLAVOUR........
dense holly
sometimes even a bit off can get you off the shield and take a lot of damage
dense holly
I hate shield though. I prefer hitting monsters
formal hill
well Im glad to know its not a glitch and I just need more practise with dodging
haha
see i like it for the crowd control
dense holly
shield is a much more passive style. you get revenge effects and you're good
dense holly
I'm bow all the way
formal hill
I had a bow run blow up in my face right before my hydra run
I cant crowd control enough/get meg enough
sometimes I can! its just...
difficult.
dense holly
get the +2 dashes from the mirror if you haven't
helps too much
hydra has 3 adds phases
you got to the 2nd for what you said
the dashes are helpful for a struggle run on hydra if you get lost
formal hill
yeah I def have the 2 dashes but I think I dont space them out enough 😅
well, i can dash twice, i mean
dense holly
you can get to 3 dashes in a row
formal hill
im saving for the rest but I keep getting distracted by other bonuses
😂
im like "that dash... but oooh i can buy something else!"
so I gotta work on it
dense holly
dash and death defies are probably the best for starters to stay in the game and learn boss' patterns and such
more time alive to learn from it
formal hill
yeah, I do have two death defies, so it makes me feel like I'm on the right track! Thank you for the advice : D
dire crystal
So the game is programmed in lua and I know a bit of that from ages back, been lookin through the files and messing around a bit. Great fun to go and reduce all the timing cooldowns to make enemies complete monsters lol. Tartarus is pretty reasonale, but asphodel just becomes a mess.
Been lookin into makin the dash longer but I can't find the bit for it lol. Rebalance it as chaos mode lol - make it the first mod ever or some such nonsense 😛
It's quite good fun that's for sure.
indigo compass
nice , just did bow run in 11min28sec 😃
dire crystal
nice!!!
thats p fast!
dire crystal
triple shot is greatttt
indigo compass
arte dash, clean kill:p
dire crystal
yeeee
indigo compass
clean kill had over 100+ extra dmg:p
hydra whent impervious after 2 shots lol
now im about maxed on my second mirror, need 42 darkness:p
indigo compass
damn just got to hydra with bow on 2nd run of my new save, did like 64 dmg per shot lol, a little bit more at boss but i died ofc:p
dire crystal
rip
indigo compass
maybe if i got some decent boons i could have pulled it off:p but only athena atk boon is not enough:op
turbid needle
hey quick question , sorry if this was asked before but..can you actually open these at all
forest marsh
No, at least not in the current build
turbid needle
oh alright thank you !! 
errant narwhal
@split marlin heads up, I am deleting your feedback in #hades-feedback since you grouped up 3 separate things together! There is already feedback about survival rooms and about the number of death defies you have left not being clear enough, so if you agree please look for them and vote for them
I couldn’t find any feedback about the number of rooms being displayed mid-run, so feel free to repost just that
turbid needle
The build I've had the most success with by far is Sword Special spamming
rough condor
what really? that is kinda extraordinary
the stun while using it feels so bad and opens up so many opportunities to get damage
opaque kernel
lamo yea I did that too
with Athena shield bash is good
with ahdes shield special is good
shrewd willow
Yo I haven't played the shield since it was nerfed, now it seems kind of wank, what's a good build path for it?
hard holly
Just upgrade the attack
And do a lot of dash attacks
And of course, completely ignore the special
shrewd willow
honestly i hate dashing too much because of the weird delay at the end
opaque kernel
I used to never use the special but now I spam it lol
hard holly
Well, the delay gets cancelled by the attack
analog crystal
Did they change the room 1 item? Ive got the mino heart 5 times in a row now
lost rose
Nah, just rng be like that sometimes
analog crystal
Rip, ty
shrewd willow
the movement delay doesn't get cancelled
stable oyster
@shrewd willow there is no delay after dashing if you attack
Then charge with shield
shrewd willow
there is an inherent movement delay when attacking, which is the same time as the dash delay
stable oyster
At least with sudden rush
shrewd willow
oof, got the increase poseidon knock back boon and over-relied on walls and lava to kill enemies, floating enemies are tough
copper berry
yeah
Really rough in Asphodel when you knock witches or brimstones way to the corner of the room over all the lava
rough condor
in addition knockback dmg on walls in asphodel/armored enemies is not working correctly
so poseidon is kinda a double no no 
formal hill
It's interesting to see that a lot of people don't like the shield special meanwhile I rely on it so much xD
river compass
In my opinion it would be nice if after beating every boss you made a resset and lost all of your boons except one of your election and with each start of the level you get one like in the start of the run(not counting the hammer buffs).
river compass
Also with every level the boons you got could be leveled up
hollow totem
especially if you're doing those homeless runs where you have a bunch of terrible boons that all work together to make it so you can barely beat meg
river compass
Tartaurus lv1 boons and 10%chance to get a lv2 boon.And same in Asphodel 70%lv1 boons 20%lv2 10%lv3 and so on with the next stages
hollow totem
the level 2 and 3 boons are based on meeting pre-requisites
so that wont really happen
river compass
What are the pre-requisites?
hollow totem
You can check the wiki
basically to get level 2 or 3 boons you have to have specific boons from the god that you want the 2 or 3 boons from
or gamepedia
my b
final goblet
What is the best strat for shield? I cant really find a good way to utilize it
indigo compass
what i try now is get ares on atk and go for a more hit and run strat
dash in dash out
bashing as many as i can into walls with maybe one follow up atk
final goblet
I see I've been trying to spam shield throw and run but that doesn't have much dmg and reliability thx
vapid mauve
I do ok on regular enemies just bopping them as sport said, haven't had much luck against the hydra yet though
indigo compass
ares pretty good for shield , if u get epic it can do about 98dmg after a sec or so, witch makes this dash slam tactic pretty good
also cast can be a nice way to play aswell
flame, for hydra i suggest goin for a bullrush strat
pastel jolt
re: @cunning tapir 's feedback about timed rooms - i think that massively depends on the room layout you get
i've gotten timed rooms in tartarus in that backwards-C kind of room with the spike traps around the edges and that was way harder than one of the larger rooms
finite grail
The lava rooms feel claustrophobic in those challenges too, in a good way
errant narwhal
there’s a lot of feedback about them already too so, I’m gonna hit it with a delet and if you agree you can just find the other feedback and vote on it there 🙏
cunning tapir
@pastel jolt no I don't thin it does depend a lot on it, in large rooms the method is sure to work, in small rooms you have to dash a bit more but are very likely to take very little to no damage as well, maybe you are not executing the strategy well enough in them 😃
@pastel jolt I can upload some footage of small rooms if it's relevant but the feedback has been removed dunno why 😃
@pastel jolt I can also tell you why it works: the reason is the attack animation and delay on literally all enemy attacks, they can never hit you while running away unless you are in a straight line since they focus your past location and not your current
pastel jolt
y'know, one ping would really have sufficed
cunning tapir
sry not too used to using discord yet I don't know what exactly you mean by ping, prob the @ thing but I didn't know it pings you just thought it was like a reply or something 😃
pastel jolt
yeah, it's the @ thing, it makes a notification pop up for whichever user you @
errant narwhal
@cunning tapir i've deleted the feedback since it's a repeat, if you would like you can vote on the feedback that has already been posted
cunning tapir
@errant narwhal ok thanks I tried looking through most of them but must have missed it 😃
velvet bone
Is there a visual indication when avenging gain procs? I'm not really sure if I'm getting my money's worth out of it
hard holly
It shows it as a small green bar on your healthbar
If you hit, you keep it as proper health
I ... think, at least
velvet bone
So that's what that is! Thanks @hard holly
hard holly
Just to be sure, I do not guarantee that is correct
But its what I think is happening
indigo compass
doesent it just trigger when u hit? when u dont i think u see nothing happening ,might be wrong tho
forest marsh
@faint basin re: shield block proc'ing revenge damage, I would say that's a bug and not intended behaviour
errant narwhal
you can report bugs in-game with F10, so please do that the next time you get a revenge boon with the shield!
final goblet
Finally beat hydra with sword 
vapid mauve
tried my first no boon attempt with spear, it was as tedius as I expected but I got to the hydra at least :<
final goblet
That's pretty impressive
vapid mauve
I've mastered the art of standing at range poking things repeatedly
got completely overwhelmed when hydra heads started spawning bloodless though
glass ledge
this is a good run
Spear, faster spin charge, crit after dash, +80% damage inc on attack from poesidon, your crit damage does bonus to armor, max mirror beside rare/epic boon stuff and I'm critting armored stuff for like 500 dmg
urban tree
What's with the legendary boons? I've never seen them in game. Are they supposed to be a thing for the early release or not yet?
errant narwhal
they have boon prerequisites and therefore are pretty rare
you need like 2 specific boons from the same god before you can get them i think
slate rain
This might be a dumb question but is this game on XB or PSN ?
slate rain
I hope so, thanks
plucky oxide
I can't recall off the top of my head, but is it possible to get more than one hammer upgrade in a run?
indigo compass
dont think so no, after 150 attempts cant say i got 2 hammers once
plucky oxide
Glad to hear. Wonder if that will change as more floors come out. I quite like how it evolves your playstyle, and the early rate at which you acquire it is nice as well. Gives you something to build off of.
indigo compass
well sometimes it can spawn right before the end :p can be a bit frustrating:p
old silo
Hammer is probably the best. Taking 20% less damage is one the best in my opinion. Which other ones are good ?
plucky oxide
I've yet to have that happen to me! Wow.
indigo compass
got it just a run ago had triple shot for bow in the store just before hydra
i was like yessss
plucky oxide
I mostly do cast runs with shield for the damage resistance. That, and the perma front facing invincibility.
Artemis is probably my favorite god, because of how well she enables cast AND crit
That and her personality is A+. Solid take on her.
plucky oxide
Crit is just superior damage right now, for a lot of reasons. That dash enabling crit is insane. Run secured, every time.
indigo compass
well for sword or shield i like to start with ares for atk myself:)
spear and bow artemis dash:p
plucky oxide
I really like the hitbox lag on sword's dash. Gives me a lot of mobile frames to do damage.
Sword: out
Hitbox: active
plucky oxide
I like the challenge, in comparison to spear and bow. But that's not really a good reason.
indigo compass
too tedious imo atm
old silo
I hope dev they do some balance with weapons. The best is shield and the worst is sword.
plucky oxide
Bow
plucky oxide
Bow, spear, shield, sword.
Shield is better than sword because of the weird revenge damage absorption.
vapid mauve
not casting shade, more praise on the devs, I really like how many people have differing, strong opinions about which weapons are good and which are bad
plucky oxide
Bow is reliable and safe, even without boons.
Spear's burst range, hitstun, and damage is incredibly useful to secure longer runs without a hassle.
vapid mauve
my take is that spear is easiest, bow is best if you know how to run with it
indigo compass
hmm i dont think spear is that easy tbh
old silo
I like shield because it has close range , medium range and kong range attacks
errant narwhal
spear is like the beginner damage weapon and shield is like the beginner Safe weapon
indigo compass
shield is too much of a hassle for me tbh, same as sword
urban tree
I'm not a big fan of the spear, I prefer the sword or the bow. Daedalus' upgrade with the double special range and +100% dam. with the sword is op
plucky oxide
Agreed Alma
indigo compass
imo bow is the easyest to get into
errant narwhal
sword is just not that great unless u upgrade it but not bad anymore, and bow rlly does require a lot of practice and a specific technique
i was rlly bad with the bow before watching a lot of bow runs by people who are actually good at it, i didnt get along with not attacking immediately
indigo compass
i guess it differs for everyone, had alot more trouble getting kills with sword shield and spear then bow
errant narwhal
and therefore, did not attack at all.... 😅
i released it too early and just died
constantly
indigo compass
bow did look harder at first tho but after a few runs it felt alot easyer
vapid mauve
people who use the spear, do you use the special or charge? or do you use the normals?
indigo compass
charge
plucky oxide
Mhm. Bow is an applied practice to get a hold of. Higher skill curve than, say, spear. Spear, you just charge attack and then hit dash for a mobile 400 damage or so.
errant narwhal
i charge and use normals
urban tree
I don't like things getting close range 😅 so having to charge attack with the spear is frustrating unless I'm dealing constant damage. imo the best use of spear is special and upgrade the cast
errant narwhal
dont use specials much overall because too many buttons for me, but i use it occasionally to cheese enemies stuck on one side of a gap
plucky oxide
It's my -poke enemies in lava- button.
errant narwhal
and when i get the 500% more dmg to armor upgrade
vapid mauve
I only just recently learned about charge -> dash with spear. I would pretty much only ever use it in point blank against a stunlocked enemy
plucky oxide
Charge+Dash is great for enemies in the middle of spawning. Makes chests trivial, with the lack of aim involved.
Bow was hard to get into due to my having to get used to 'snap aim' on PC.
vapid mauve
I have to turn off Aim Assist anytime I play with the bow
old silo
What are the best blessing for dash? I usually use Zeus or aphrodite but need someone recommendation. I only played like 10 hours
vapid mauve
Artemis dash is great
indigo compass
only one i dislike is poseidon tbh
vapid mauve
as long as you arent already getting criticals from another source
indigo compass
but seeing i use bow often i go with artemis
fluid moat
Artemis for primary attack builds for sure, if you want a solo boon win, Zeus dash early with Pom upgrades into it will win you runs with quick reflexes 1/2
Passion Dash still good, just not as much damage
indigo compass
yeah passsion dash is good for the debuff ide say
if u allready got something else on atk
plucky oxide
Bow- High Damage / High Manual Skill / High Safety
-requires spacing and repetitive manual actions to perform optimally. Not reliant on boons or skills to win, but excels quickly with correct specs. Requires high manual skill to get far consistently.
Spear- High Damage / Low Manual Skill / Medium Safety
-Easy to do a large amount of burst with little manual skill. In order to achieve this, keeps you open. Not as safe as optimal performance of bow.
Shield - Low Damage / Medium Manual Skill / High Safety
-longest, most assured runs. low damage, due to its reliance on correct hammer/boon upgrades. Literally gives you proc'able invincibility.
Sword - Medium Damage / Med Manual Skill / Low Safety
-understanding that moves can be punished, and requires spacing. Not enough damage output to justify damage taken by playing recklessly.
old silo
Thanks pause for your info. I have problem with the bow because im not really good in timing skills of the bow plus i find really hard to use when you over run by enemies and use spread shot all the time
plucky oxide
Just my opinion, gtx. Bow is tricky to say the least
urban tree
Shield is easy to get far on, but I just have the hardest time beating the hydra with it. Partly because my special goes off into oblivion for a good 5 secs after I throw it.
I love the bow though, you're right it does take a bit of getting used to
old silo
Bow is the best long range weapon in my opinion. I only wish sword would be much better. The main tactic i use od hit and run which shield and bow are the best for it and sword is close range and you can take easy damage from the enemy
urban tree
Poseidons boon for knockback is really good with the swords attack I've found. Then I just use the special and cast to bring major damage
plucky oxide
Aye, my most common success with sword is actually on sword special. But that was before a few nerfs to some boons I liked.
Of course, life drinker was also a busted hammer upgrade. But that was removed.
The third strike would heal for a % of damage you dealt with it. Problem was, it did so for every enemy struck, and you could dash cancel into it.
Strike, strike, dash+third strike.
If it healed you on the first hit, it would have been fine (maybe), but if you hit a good mob of enemies that was, like, 30-60 hp refunded.
wary beacon
I like the bow until I get put in an early room full of armored enemies before I've got enough damage increasing boons to break the armor in a quick and reliable manner before I'm overwhelmed.
plucky oxide
Agreed. Gotta play the keepaway/kiting, sometimes for an insufferably long time. However, you're always more mobile than the opponent, and you can always deal damage from range. Sometimes it's just a patience game.
Does anyone know if regular pots give coin? Or is it just the golden ones?
errant narwhal
sometimes
wary beacon
I've only seen it from golden ones
plucky oxide
I assumed they have a small % chance of 2-5 coins, on the off chance.
Nothing quite like walking through a doorway before locking eyes with a golden pot you just waltzed away from.
If a hammer is in a shop, and you don't buy it, will it show up later on in your run? The same question can be asked of doorways. I wouldn't know, as I always choose hammer as main priority. Is there a situation where you've ever found yourself NOT going for hammer over something else?
indigo compass
hammer can likely appear in shop if u have ignored it before it
but i only take my keepsake over hammers
wary beacon
I think they said you can only have one, but that shouldn't stop it from showing up again if you pass it in the store
old silo
I had few runs when i could get 2 hammers boon but i always lack coins to buy from the shop soo it possibile i guess
plucky oxide
Hammer spawn is something I'm interested in knowing the details of, so that I make better decisions in my runs. Getting a choice between hammer and the boon I trinketed for doesn't feel too great.
stray radish
anyone saw a blue pot or is that just my mind messing with me? it was in pre-Meg Charon's shop so idk if it was just the hue or what
plucky oxide
There are blue pots in Charon room before meg.
It gives that sweet sweet coin.
But it is not a 100% spawn chance
upper parcel
Does anyone else feel like the skeletons in the second world deal damage before they actually do their charge? As in they deal damage, then finish the charge animation and actually hit you (or where you were if you dashed). Or should i just git gut?
indigo compass
yeah the blue ones are also money pots
and yes habrok the skeletons are very inconsistent
stray radish
i saw that part, just wasnt sure if it was actually blue. thanks! xD
indigo compass
yeah i dont know if its supposed to be blue maybe cause of the lighting and colours or whatever but idk=p^
nova solstice
Hey quick question, but does the game work with keyboard controls? Everything I have seen requires a controller, and I do not and will not play console or with a controller.
plucky oxide
Yes
upper parcel
Alright thanks. I dont mind them being fast, since there needs to be some mechanics to stop dash spamming, but i just dont like when the damage doesnt line up with the animation in my eyes
nova solstice
Thank you!
plucky oxide
I have only played with keyboard controls. I like it, but I also played transistor with keyboard controls, no problem. I have hear friends report that transistor 'did not feel good' on keyboard, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
indigo compass
yeah fast is ok but they seem to sometimes charge out of spawn before seeing any animation or things like that witch si annoying
old silo
Are there legendary blessing in the game? I only encounter rare or epic blessings
upper parcel
It can be annoying that you can only dash in 8 directions, but its absolutely doable
plucky oxide
There are legendary boons
plucky oxide
They require a certain amount of investment in a God before they show up.
upper parcel
Oh my, havent seen any of those yet. I can't wait untill we get more worlds and content so that we can really see the crazy builds that are possible! 😄
hoary jewel
I am... kinda disappointed that the max of dashes is limited to +2 😦
indigo compass
yeah she said +2
grand patrol
oh oops
upper parcel
Personally i like that, 10 dashes could get silly
grand patrol
misread the + sry
hoary jewel
Well, 3 - but when you look at the mirror when you've got it maxxed, it says +2
grand patrol
ahhh
indigo compass
3 gets u into lava alot:p
indigo compass
so double is allready good in many situations
upper parcel
Agreed
indigo compass
i have allready beat the game with one
grand patrol
u beat a room n then die goin on the plank
hoary jewel
I kinda feel like if someone wants to have more dashes, they should be able to, if they want to invest the Darkness
indigo compass
maybe they will add more in the future content but i think 3 is good
upper parcel
Is that really fun gameplay though? :p
upper parcel
I can imagine
indigo compass
did it with only 80 percent quik temper and 30 percent backstab on bow
was on my second save file
upper parcel
I just got the game yesterday and got my first kill on the hydra today with the spear. How many times have you guys completed it? 😃
indigo compass
i am at around 60kills
upper parcel
What builds do you like the most so far?
indigo compass
for me its bow artemis
so hunter dash,clean kill with lots of poms, and maybe aphro on atk or something with sweet surrender is also nice
old silo
Soo what you have to do to get legendary boon?You have to stock 3 boons the od the same god/godess or do you have to max out by giving them ambrosia?
indigo compass
add triple shot hammer on there and u are unstoppable
upper parcel
Remind me - whats clean kill?
indigo compass
extra crit dmg
upper parcel
I had a run where i had 250% focused shot damage and hunter dash though
Damn
That was a lot of fun too
upper parcel
With athena buffing attacks too
indigo compass
gets hydra head in no time
indigo compass
focused? u mean power shot?
upper parcel
On one hand im a little disappointed that theres not more out yet on the game, because i just found out about it like yesterday
On the other hand its already so good and they're still going to be developing it for a year or so
So im pretty psyched ^^
indigo compass
yeah i think its allready well worth the money , allready got so much playtime in
upper parcel
Indeed
indigo compass
over 150 attempts:p
upper parcel
Damn
indigo compass
allready maxed 2 mirrors by now
upper parcel
Are the legendary boons different or are they just even beefier versions of the regular onces?
indigo compass
they are special boons
upper parcel
Is clean kill one of them?
indigo compass
u will get runs with insane amounts of boons
if u get like 2 trial of the gods in asphodel alone forinstance:p
upper parcel
So far i think my most sucessful runs have been funding a couple boons that work well together and upgrading them though
Rather than just getting a bunch of random onces
But ill def try to go for some legendary onces
indigo compass
sometimes u cant choose:p
upper parcel
Do you know how many boons you need to have before a legendary one can spawn?
True 😅
upper parcel
Alright, and even then they're rare i take it?
indigo compass
on bow u want artemis just for dash and clean kill:p
indigo compass
then i would rather have something like aphro on atk or athena or poseidon
upper parcel
I find aphros and poseidons boons to be pretty weak generally
indigo compass
once u get the big dmg the legendary becomes irrelevant for current content
ull be 2 shotting hydra into shield phase anyway
upper parcel
The knockback can often be annoying and you just get so little +% with aphro compared to athena
indigo compass
yeah but aphro has weakness debuff
indigo compass
for ppl that take much dmg it is sick
upper parcel
I dont remember what that does
south comet
Hey @upper parcel careful with the language please, from a few minutes ago
upper parcel
Ye 20% damage is sick for sure
indigo compass
i would say def for new players aphro is good
alot of ppl get dmged by bombs alot
12dmg
is alot :p if it then becomes 6 its suddenly alot more managable
upper parcel
Very true
indigo compass
everything has its use in the end
upper parcel
Something i feel is undertuned right now is Urge to Kill
But i suppose you might be able to stack it with other things that buff attacks
indigo compass
not that bad tbh, its one of the only thigns that affects ur cast
and cast can be good:p
upper parcel
Ye but epic Athena attack thing is like 80%
indigo compass
on artemis cast + everything can crit it can become crazy powerfull
upper parcel
I suppose
indigo compass
its not super but its more one of those that u suddenly get and is at least better then the other options alot of the time
indigo compass
tho ofc u would like every option to be as good as the others but if u think about it realisticly its hard to ever come up with completely balanced options tbh
theres allways gonna be things that are just far more appealing then others
upper parcel
Honestly I'm okay with some being generally better than others
upper parcel
It is a roguelike where random chance is a core part of the game
So its not too bad imo
indigo compass
true i agree
upper parcel
I just dont like if two things do essentially the same thing but one does it a lot better
indigo compass
i approach the game with this mindset so i enjoy it alot and just roll with what i get:p
upper parcel
Totally
indigo compass
where as first with dead cells i dident really have that mindset and i ended up feeling dissapointed alot
but the more i play the more i appreciate it
upper parcel
It is really just so solid
Im convinced this will be a classic once its done
The parts that are ready are already so fleshed out and polished
In the art department and dialogue too
indigo compass
i must say this game is so far one of my favourite experiences this year
upper parcel
Agreed
upper parcel
If anyone from supergiant is actually going to be reading this at some point, i just wanna take a moment to say:
You're an awesome company making awesome games and keeping my faith in the industry alive along with CD project RED, in otherwise very grim times. Keep doing what you're doing! You're amazing
I think im going to log off for now though. Have a good one mate
indigo compass
😃
i also left a message one of the first days i played:p dont know if any of the team saw it tho:p
upper parcel
Now its out there anyways 😛
indigo compass
😃
forest marsh
@upper parcel Just reading through the backlog and noticed your comment about only being able to dash in 8 directions with keyboard. You can change it to dash towards your cursor in the Controls menu, that way you have the same range of dash movement as controller 👍
upper parcel
Oh wow ill def check that out, Thanks 👍
forest marsh
Re: @formal ether 's feedback about the dash, there are definitely i-frames during dash. This was introduced in Patch 004, released Dec 13. The one action where I do think there's too much animation lock is on the sword special
little kayak
Am I tripping in thinking vertical spear hits have so much more screen range than horizontal? It's so much easier to tag enemies from range underneath/above than it is left to right.
Are imgur links allowed? Created quick album to hopefully show what I mean - https://imgur.com/a/2pDUVLk
forest marsh
Yup, imgur links are the go-to for image sharing on this Discord
I think that might just be an artifact of the isometric perspective?
flint hollow
I picked this game up the other day and after playing for a little while I discovered a really broken combo that’s caused me to be able to clear the game very easily. When using the Bow, getting Artemis’ boon that gives you a crit after dashing, and getting the upgrade that splits your shot into three shots I’ve cleared the Hydra with no issue multiple times
indigo compass
yes that is the easyest way to beat the game currently
little kayak
It's kind of making spear gameplay strange in that I can tag things nearly off screen if they're at the top, but half that range if to the sides. lol. unfortunate x.x
forest marsh
Hmmm, maybe it is off somehow, though screens aren't square (usually) 😆 
Someone posted recently about the dash movement having a similar issue, so probably related
little kayak
yeah true true 👍
vapid mauve
yeah, with an isometric game it can be real hard to tell if it's just the perspective being confusing
dire crystal
neat tidbit i found scanning through code, the item which buffs the next boon you find doesn't affect shop items it seems 😮
never noticed loll
forest marsh
Wow, that's a heck of a cast build!
plucky oxide
its like an automatic weapon at a certain point. really enjoyed it.
all aboard the pain train, choo choo 🎵
indigo compass
nice just got 102percent epic clean kill boon:) just a few rooms in,gonna be a good spear run:)
damn 600+ backstab procs on meg
425ish without backstab
oblique karma
What's that pause
Also is urge to kill actually good
Is burst shot an legendary boon
indigo compass
no burst shot is not
oblique karma
I've never got it
forest marsh
Burst Shot is a tier 2 boon
plucky oxide
burst cast (tier 2) vs support fire (tier 3 legendary) look similar, but one is much more useful than the other
forest marsh
So you have to get True Shot first
plucky oxide
The true shot projectiles do 25% of true shot's damage.
Support fire only does.... a whopping 15 damage.
But Support Fire launches the projectile on attack AND cast.
plucky oxide
Which is REALLY FUN when you remove the third strike on sword with the flurry.
Bad, but fun.
I'm interested to see what happens when more floors are added.
Like, will progression be slowed? Do I get to take this level of silliness even further? How weird and absurd are cast runs like this going to get? I love it.
indigo compass
hope they dont nerf the spear and bow, they are so fun right now:)
velvet quest
@worldly warren your interpretation is correct - you need it on the preceding run to get the benefit of the next run, i just thought that wording was ambiguous
forest marsh
It's actually bugged (I don't think it's been patched). I had a run while I was trying to get the 
wall scroll where I didn't have the Coin Purse equipped, and then on the next run I equipped it but it still gave me the 200 from my previous run
velvet quest
huh weird
unless it's not bugged and that's intentional bc the language does allow for that interpretation
forest marsh
My interpretation would be that intended behaviour is it needs to be equipped for 2 runs to have an effect
Otherwise it doesn't make sense how you're bringing the coins back
worn fulcrum
I think it makes the most sense from a game design (not flavor or common sense) perspective to only need to equip it on the run you're gaining the money
And thematically, Charon is reclaiming the gold that you have when you die in either case, I suppose, so his coin purse could contain the gold even if you weren't wearing it when you died
wide gust
So I didn't realize that charging the bow right after dashing affects the charge time. I was always angry about the charge time not seeming consistent, then finally figured it out.
Was that said somewhere and i missed it? Or do you just have to figure it out
Suddenly the bow seems WAY better
forest marsh
It's not stated anywhere, but it is Known™
And yeah, it makes the bow very effective
wide gust
Just cleared the game for the first time with nothing but Perfect shot and Divine Strike level 6. Seems just buffing the bow and spamming dash-strikes is the easiest build, for sure. Maybe not the most fun, though.
crude tangle
also just beat what is available with bow, seems pretty strong right now
wide gust
I don't think the bow itself is strong. I'd argue it's actually possibly on the weak side. It's just the upgrades are amazing
Triple shot is 2 or 3 times the damage if you are close enough, Perfect Shot is 2.5x the damage as long as you're charging right...
The close-up buff is 3.5x the damage if they're close
Those are all WAY better than most of the other weapon's choices
It's also the only high-damage attack in the game that has practically no commitment. You can dash during charging and right after shooting. The sword's Special has a HUGE lag afterward, and the spear's charge has a bit, too (plus charge time)
forest marsh
One of the biggest reasons Bow is so strong right now is the pierce that they patched in
turbid needle
imo weapons mean nothing you only need your right click
buff your right click with artemis everything artemis and you got an easy gamethrough
cold oriole
I think the far and away strongest bow build is rapid shot with curse of pain and you just dump every pom you find into curse, gives you zero charge time attacks that are good for like 200 damage each. Got my first clear using that strat
rough condor
let me fix that for you: the strongest build now is the bow.
cold oriole
I mean there are three distinct dominant bow strata from what I can see though
Ares with rapid-fire, or Aetemis/Athena with triple shot/perfect shot
rough condor
Point black shot, triple shot, perfect shot with any boons or ares with rapid with area but the camera zoom out zoom in while using rapid shot and the problem that you can't spam attack if you still want to dash is a huge downer for me
This camera stuff is really bugging me the most with rapid shot
turbid needle
won with all weapons in a row with just artemis upgrade right click and increase of max ammo afterwards pick upgrades for em and gg
you dont need anything else
flat halo
Guys, how many rooms are there in the Early Access full run ?
hushed parrot
There are 27 chambers in the current version of the game
flat halo
Thanks! I guess the first boss is "only" half way through?
golden minnow
More or less yeah
swift cloak
huuu everytime i see someon saying "don't nerf thing, make other op" i just want to loose my eyes
the point of nerf and up is about how much time the devs think about how long a run should last (because if something make the run last for 5 mins, and something make it last for half an hour, you can clearly see what is wrong and fix it to make it like, last 15mins)
if you make everything op, you'll end up having one boons to rush the game cause there is no need for more. Where is the strategic and the decisive choice you need to make in an RNG based game if you remove that
before yelling "we need to balance boons" we should first balance weapon, so special feel worth using them, instead of attack spam / boon empowerment on attack
golden minnow
I feel unless you get the exodia combinations of powers, a lot of boss fights and even some mini bosses are like Dark Souls. You wait it out, dodge the mechanic cycle a lot, rinse repeat. I if you don't get a boon on a certain part of your kit. Meg is like a 10+ minute fight even if you are chipping away constantly. It feels good to beat them the first time in a challenging way. But having to keep spending such a long time to clear and then get slaughtered in the 2nd zone feels bad. So I think a bit of tweaking would be nice. But I think currently it is fine.
Also you can totally just farm gold in Meg's boss encounter by just not hitting here and only farming the adds that spawn. So there is that
tawdry sail
I feel Meg is easier with several slots unlocked across the mirror. If I try a little hard, I can consistently beat her hitless, irrespective of boons I have or duration of the fight.
I can't say the same for Hydra though. It's tough and I still haven't come up with a strategy that's better than rushing in.
I'd say scale Meg up as per player abilities and how many times player beat her. And do the same for Hydra. True, it'd mean slaughter for people who rush in with an OP build. They'd win enough times that Hydra will be too strong for them to actually strategize.
That could prompt a boss rush mode?
Case in point: Hollow Knight and it's latest DLC Godmaster
neon bough
I'd say have Meg deal more damage and have less HP ? The uncool thing of this fight is that it's very long, but not that difficult
I mean it's not necessarily a reference here but that's why Dark Souls' bosses feel good, they'll open you up in two hits if you don't know how to handle them, but if you master their moves you can beat them quick
tawdry sail
I'm not sure that's a good idea for newcomers. For experienced ones, it's a good challenge. But for them, this is the first boss fight. Having a tremendous scaled up difficulty might put them off
neon bough
I'm not saying two-hit kills, but (as a relative newcomer) I'd have feel less desperate about not managing to beat her if I felt like it was a matter of patterns mastery rather than stamina
tawdry sail
In that case, yes. Lower health would be better. Perhaps, both health and damage can scale up via some algo as number of victories against Meg increases?
steady wing
to me its juts a matter of unlocking the right mirror updates. after about 10-15 runs you start getting the hang of it. And once you master her pattern you hardly get hit anynore
stray radish
it's still easier to avoid her than to actually scratch her, even if you know what you're doing. speaking as a casual: casuals tend to not be as coordinated xD
hollow totem
Idk the real challenge with meg is not becoming impatient
fleet oracle
did you guys know you can dash while bull rushing with shield and it will propel you during the bull rush?
hollow totem
Youll whittle her down eventually
stray radish
but the fight is so looooong
indigo compass
yeah patience is key specially at first
hollow totem
Yes i did
indigo compass
once u get her down u kill her quikly if u have any decent dmg
fleet oracle
i just figured it out by simply messing around and its glorious
indigo compass
with bow i get her in about 1min i think
fleet oracle
im using posiedons perks on my regular attacks and it destroys
the quickest run i had was a spear crit/ares build
and that widdled down meg really quickl
or chain lightning spear
indigo compass
my quikest run atm is bow 11min 28sec
keen badger
The most effective way I've found to deal with Meg is to equip the bow, find a Daedalus hammer and get the upgrade that makes it charge instantly, if you're lucky enough to have the option,
It does reduce your damage a little but if you combine it with a Boon that increases the damage of each shot (Zeus, Ares or Athena, personally) you can effectively joust with her, firing off two or three shots until she starts charging her bull-rush attack, dash behind her, turn around, rince and repeat,
If you can get that Boon from Zeus that causes a lightning strike every time you dash, all the better
fleet oracle
lightiing dash is sooo good
keen badger
I don't like the bow much by default but with the instant charge upgrade makes it great
lost rose
unless you've got an ares or artemis boon
indigo compass
no dmg output and doesent work well with the camera and dashing
hollow totem
Imo the bow is good with any of his primary attack hammer boons
indigo compass
triple shot up close is sick
hollow totem
Because the bow is broke
stray radish
ye tbh i hate the bow cause it doesnt have that instant panic melee reaction xD
indigo compass
just dash away instead then fire:p
stray radish
eh why bother when spear does that better xDD
indigo compass
not rly spear is only good with charge spin
keen badger
My personal favourite weapon is the shield because it's so adaptable, and you can use it to hit foes from around a corner, but it's kinda useless in the Meg fight because it tends to lock onto her goons and leaves you vaulnerable for too long, is it easier to target a specific enemy in a crowd with M+K controls?
stray radish
guess im a hipster then
you could try to turn off auto aim and see if that works better
keen badger
The auto aim is really useful, if you ask me, but I supose I could turn it off during the boss fights then back on afterwards, if it helps
stray radish
maybe
indigo compass
i play with controller and aim assist on myself, just takes some getting used to
plucky oxide
I remember a postmortem of Darkest Dungeon, where they talked about game balance. Their goal when balancing the game wasn't to make every class perfectly balanced amongst one another, but to enable different styles of play and let the individual determine what was optimal for them. This seems especially true in any game that involves manual action. Sure, there might be some amazing weapon out there, but what if you like the game feel that another weapon gives you more? In a day and age that seems obsessed with multiplayer/community balancing, I think it's unfair to look at a weapon and go 'this is superior to the other weapons. It needs a downgrade'. In my opinion, the question ought to be a bit more nuanced than that.
stray radish
in a perfect world, every stage should be at least doable with different weapons/playstyles @_@
plucky oxide
And it is
keen badger
Extra Credits did an episode on "Perfect Imbalance" which touches on something like that, You might like it Pause
plucky oxide
Life Drinker was good. Too good. It wasn't removed purely because it made sword better than the other weapons. It was removed because it took away a lot of the stakes of the game. I could beat meg by continually attacking her, tanking her hits, and leave with the same amount of hp. It had to go, in my eyes. And action was indeed taken.
@keen badger thank you for the suggestion!
keen badger
@plucky oxide, Pleasure~
Anyway, if I may go on a little tangent, anyone got tips for the Hydra fight in Asphodel? - I've only fought it twice but I'd like to see how others have handled it
plucky oxide
Understanding when it's safe to attack would be a good first bet. Their unblockable pink projectiles leave them very open during the animation. Standing in front of them is never a good idea. Treat the center as a 'don't go here' zone. Stay behind walls if you need to hide. Dash over them to initiate. Dash behind his array of pink projectiles and crunch out some meaty backstabs.
indigo compass
not overusing dash is also a good tip i can give u
u can get lost easily
or dash into projectiles
plucky oxide
Area damage accelerates the multi-head stage of the fight quite a bit (alongside just good dps to begin with). Being able to deal damage to multiple heads at once and their surrounding spawn is a good way to avoid getting trounced.
keen badger
hmm, okay~ - any particular weapon to recomend for that fight?
plucky oxide
Bow has built in piercing. Spear has that amazing sweep of damage with charge+dash. The area damage is great on them, yeah.
indigo compass
spear spin can do ridiculous dmg but is tricky to pull off
plucky oxide
With sword, you might be reliant on getting upgrades and boons that boost special. I've played builds where 1-3 specials on sword kills a hydra head. That was before Aphrodite was normalized, though.
Shield's dominant strategy for me seems to be retaliation boons. Taking the 'deal damage when hit' effects and using your charge attack to block that damage results in some slow but safe and consistent damage.
indigo compass
ares on atk is pretty good for shield imo, do a bit of a hit and run strat
plucky oxide
Holding charge attack in front of the hydra as they spew a volley of those projectiles, only for each to be blocked and dish out a slew of particle effects. Very fun.
Aye, and that. There's enough attack upgrades in the game for primary fire shield to turn into a beefy threat.
keen badger
Oh yeah, general question: Once you've unlocked all the weapons and Mirror abilities, are keys as useless as they seem? - I've got 50+ and nothing to spend them on
plucky oxide
Hold em and wait, it seems.
indigo compass
yes they are atm
i just maxed my mirror then started a new save
on 3rd save now:p
plucky oxide
I compare keys, darkness, and ambrosia, as floors with nothing on them. This is okay, in my eyes. In other roguelites, each room doesn't need to have a run-benefactor goodie in it.
But it is a weird transition, going from (yay, keys) to (ugh, keys?)
analog crystal
I feel like, especially with ambrosia, stocking up on resources doesnt feel bad as it means in later updates you wont have to grind for it
keen badger
It just seems that you'll inevitably end up stokepiling dozens if not hundreds of literally useless items after a while, you'll run out of things to unlock, run out of skills to upgrade and run out of people to give gifts to
Why not allow us to trade them with someone for other items or just money?, the only item that actually retains its value throughout the game
Even if the exchange rate was really, really low, you'd still have something to do with them
indigo compass
its only just launched im sure they will add some sort of use for it somehow
analog crystal
They will probably add something in the future as when the game is fully released stockpiling keys wouldnt be acceptable i feel
plucky oxide
This turns overall campaign progression into individual run progression. A tricky thing to pull off, without making one option trivial. A few coins instead? Maybe. But I worry about empowering the individual run over campaign progression. I'll be interested to see how they implement this 'recycling' feature, if at all.
stray radish
i feel like maybe early access cap would help. so you can still hoard some of them for later but not to the point that you can just unlock everything the moment it's released
neon bough
Also, not completely related, but how do you feel about darkness not being removed after every run ? It seems a little too benevolent with the player to me, compared with other roguelikes ?
indigo compass
that why i like this game tbh
losing cells and blueprints in dead cells for instance really annoyes me
analog crystal
How would you get darkness otherwise? You get none if you dont finish the run? @neon bough
indigo compass
and turns me off from the genre
neon bough
It kind of encourage grinding early game
@analog crystal i was thinking sthg similar to Rogue Legacy, you spend it before starting a new run or it's gone
indigo compass
i think they did a great job not making it too much the same as others
stray radish
makes sense that something that fuels permanent upgrades doesnt go away
neon bough
Yeah but from a gameplay perspective
analog crystal
I see, an interesting concept I feel would be 'interest' after each run then. If you can finish the run instead of losing all your darkness you get a 15% increase to add a sort of risk/reward thing
stray radish
i dont like the spend now or lose mechanic, at least when you have quite expensive upgrades
plucky oxide
It's a rogue-lite. Part of the genre's appeal is being able to take things like darkness back with you after a run ends. Remember, the game isn't going to end at Hydra. There will be more floors.
stray radish
like, Skelly is right but also sometimes you just dont get enough from a run xD
analog crystal
I get around 150-250 each run which imo feels like enough
neon bough
I mean they could be more generous with darkness but make it disappear when a new run starts
stray radish
im lucky if i get like 40 per run
split flicker
i dont think forcing you to spend darkness would really add anything to the game
keen badger
I would absolutely have given up by now if you had to spend darkness right away, it would just be far too tedious to get 100 darkness for the later upgrades in one run
analog crystal
@stray radish I run with darkness thirst every run, do the timed chests and always go for darkness doors and challenge doors
plucky oxide
I average 80-100
neon bough
We don't have to suppose we'd earn the same amount per run if this change was implemented :)
stray radish
i dont like the mini-boss fight darkness rooms
indigo compass
i like this system , dont want to lose darkness
stray radish
same
analog crystal
Maybe darkness could be used for another purpose, such as empowering weapons slightly
plucky oxide
It feels like an unnecessary change to a system that isn't broken, in my eyes. Just changing the context to which we 'grind'. It would also make upgrades permanent, which removes a lot of the learning process for new players.
neon bough
I just feel like it lowers the stakes of dying
stray radish
in theory the increase rate could help if it disappeared between runs but eh
indigo compass
this is little more friendly to ppl who usually arent rogielite or like players
split flicker
imo the stakes of dying are like... having to play thru the entire game again
you feel
neon bough
I mean the game's about dying amirite
stray radish
tbf, for the story, it kinda makes sense that there are no stakes
you just reset back to your home
neon bough
Oh no, permanent upgrades but non permanent darkness
stray radish
the world isnt gonna end
analog crystal
Tbf to @neon bough I do sometimes stand in lava to kms because I dont feel my run can beat hydra so i wanna start again
neon bough
It's true there is a feeling of coziness
analog crystal
And then I keep the darkness which feels a lil unfair
indigo compass
theres a give up function
stray radish
XD
indigo compass
:p
analog crystal
Oh....
plucky oxide
How would you implement the refund system Nicolai?
indigo compass
idk man took ppl long enough to get to hydra with the current system
split flicker
keeping darkness only if you beat the game seems to kinda defeat the point lol
plucky oxide
It's pretty old. I've logged more hours into it than transistor, already.
neon bough
Nooo you just lose it when you start the run haha
stray radish
#fun
neon bough
Like in Rogue Legacy
analog crystal
Ive logged wayyy more hours into hades than pyre, trans and bastion
neon bough
It's a roguelite, spending hundreds of hours is normal haha
The other games are of a diffzrent genre
Well anyway don't want to argue too much, was just saying :)
plucky oxide
And again, there are also only two stages, bear that in mind.
stray radish
you have a good point. but also, why fix something that isnt broken xD
i wish epic had time counter, i dont even know how long i spent in hades
neon bough
Well I think guys at Supergiant are aiming for "best as possible game" rather than "non broken game"
plucky oxide
Oof
neon bough
(uuh excuse my approximative english btw)
Anyway off to play some more, have a nice day/evening guys !
analog crystal
Hf!
stray radish
good luck!
keen badger
@neon bough - You may be right that Hades is significantly more generous than a typical rogue-like, but that's a very deliberate design desission, not an oversight
They want to keep it accessable to more casual players to promote an active and friendly community,
this discord would be significantly less fun if everyone who can't or doesn't want to spend hundreds of hours fighting through the same rooms got turned off and stopped playing
analog crystal
Also considering SGG hasnt done a rougelite before but has a very committed fan base they wouldn't want to deter them I feel
cold oriole
Yeah, I come from bastion and transistor and this is the first roguelike I've played like ever
So I'm quite glad I was able to pick it up pretty well and get a clear
stray radish
i usually play games on easy modes because i like to have a good time
so hades's been pretty unforgiving so far
keen badger
If you want a more hard-core experiance, fair enough, but that isn't what Hades is here to be, maybe try Darkest Dungen or Rogue Legacy for a more agressive game
cold oriole
Also is you want a hardcore game like
analog crystal
I really like that they've implemented mechanics from other games, mainly the bow shot from pyre and some attacking from bastion but it makes it feel familiar which is nice
stray radish
they'll probably add ways to make the game harder eventually
cold oriole
Just don't spend darkness?
stray radish
like the limiters etc
cold oriole
I'm sure idols will come
analog crystal
Maybe idols give +% darkness too which would be nice if there was something to spend it on
cold oriole
If i had to guess this games limiters will involve invoking the titans somehow
analog crystal
That sounds cool
I would hope it's not just like angering the gods in duel boon rooms though
stray radish
but pyre already took the concept of titan stars xP
cold oriole
Yeah but
cold oriole
The titans are literally sealed away in tartarus
analog crystal
Do you think that after escaping the underworld, the next stage will be Olympus?
cold oriole
That'd be awesome
analog crystal
Especially as theres only 4 levels of 'hell' in greek mythology
I feel like 4 floors isn't enough
Or even fighting gaia seems to be a reoccurring concept
cold oriole
Yeah there's only two more weapon pedestals too
Adding an entirely new realm would make sense for the typical length of an SG game
keen badger
Speaking off he titans, is there any other reason to jump into those pits that take away health, then to get a little extra money or darkness? - that bit of lore you get about Chaos the first time you go in lead me to believe you'd slowly learn more about the primordial Gods by visiting there
analog crystal
I would love a grimoire weapon
With casting spells
Which change based upon boons
cold oriole
I just want to throw some got damn bombs
analog crystal
I do feel like the blood pits are underwhelming for the price
I got 75 gold for one in Tartarus, when I could've done a room to get 100 and take no damage
cold oriole
Pretty much the dark pits can accelerate hydralite
Is the only good use I've found lol
analog crystal
As im currently grinding darkness to finish the mirror, I only take them when I dont have anything 'good' in the next set of rooms
To try to get darkness
cold oriole
How many tiers of those godly favor upgrades on the bottom are there?
That's just about all I have left to start upgrading
cold oriole
Wow that's a Lotta dankness
analog crystal
Yeah, its the only resource I'm not stocking up on yet
cold oriole
I hope we get more gods too
cold oriole
I mean I'd love to see some hermes mobility shenanagins
keen badger
I'm sure we'll get all 12 Olympians sooner or later
analog crystal
What I reallly want is more keepsakes, I feel like there isn't enough controlled customisability with each run
keen badger
Not sure how they'll all have useful, unique boons though...
analog crystal
SGG has done a pretty good job with the current boons. apart from Poseidon I feel
As knock back does nothing to bosses
cold oriole
Hermes you the quick
analog crystal
Hermes would be really fun if it could add some sort of controlled teleporting mechanic
Easy backstabs or something
teleports behind you
cold oriole
Demeter can make resources you 'harvest' from rooms stronger
indigo compass
i would love to have a boon that reduces enemy atk speed
analog crystal
hephaestus would be fun
analog crystal
I would love if Poseidon abilities could put out lava puddles in Asphodel
stray radish
omg