I am simply tired of the "EXPLORE IT YOURSELF" trope
#off-topic-discussion
toxic steppe
Emulate some older stuff
toxic steppe
I've been playing Donkey Kong Country 2
odd grove
All it does is make me depressed because i wander around the same empty areas over and over thinking something happened
toxic steppe
The music is 10/10, David Wise is an incredible composer.
odd grove
But nope, i just walked over this one floor i can smash
I found out after googling it
It's not fun getting lost only to give up and look up online
tranquil cloud
I like graduated hints to be available for games like that
toxic steppe
That's been a thing in games since games have been a thing tho
tranquil cloud
So you can ask for a nudge without being spoiled
And then ask for a bit more direction if thats still not enough
toxic steppe
Imagine us suckers that ran into that before Google existed
tranquil cloud
And then ask for the straight up walkthrough for that section
odd grove
And the only amusement from that is "finally it's over"
And what happens once i speak?
tranquil cloud
So you don’t like games like Myst and Riven, then?
tranquil cloud
Oh well if you’re frustrated by that sort of thing then don’t
toxic steppe
Puzzle games are probably exempt from this complaint
They're supposed to curve by design
odd grove
In puzzle games you don't walk past the place you are supposed to be
tranquil cloud
You do though
tranquil cloud
I don’t mean puzzle game like a game where there are self-contained levels where you solve a puzzle and then move to the next
I’m talking about immersive first person puzzle games where the whole world is the puzzle
toxic steppe
The kinds of puzzles you need a physical notepad to take notes for
tranquil cloud
Myst pioneered the genre, and then they made Riven off the buttloads of money they made from Myst, there will never be another game quite like it
odd grove
Ok fine but
I simply don't enjoy being held back from the actual game because i don't know where to go or what to do
tranquil cloud
In those games that IS the actual game
tranquil cloud
I didn’t like Obduction as much but it was fine
toxic steppe
And The Talos Principle
tranquil cloud
The Witness is more individual puzzles spread throughout a world
But I like it for its atmosphere
tranquil cloud
And the... unconventional puzzles
toxic steppe
Plus it has fun secret puzzles
tranquil cloud
I know, I 100%ed it 😊
I usually prefer games that blend story in more
But i did like it
Despite the complete lack of plot
toxic steppe
Yeah it's a fun challenge
tranquil cloud
I like the Talos Principle
I wouldn’t say it’s one of my favorites ever but it was legitimately good
I got motion sick though
hexed hollow
Talos Principle is something I've been meaning to pick up but keep getting drawn in to other things 
tranquil cloud
We had to do a lot of fiddling with the view to make it possible for me to play it
toxic steppe
Quern - Undying Thoughts
flat prism
Same aggy
tranquil cloud
Over the shoulder, wider view angle
flat prism
Hi cale
toxic steppe
Hello
tranquil cloud
Quern is alright, has some decent puzzles, but I was annoyed at how they kind of like... paper machéd a plot over a pure puzzle game
“Some guy wants to see if you’re worthy so you have to solve these puzzles...”
toxic steppe
The Journeyman Project 3: Legacy of Time?
odd grove
Ah well
odd grove
I tried to play metal gear rising and it's
tranquil cloud
I love it
odd grove
Odd?
toxic steppe
So good
odd grove
Like you can notice how old it is in some aspects
tranquil cloud
It’s so charming and fun and has some great puzzles with an interesting mechanic
But I didn’t like the very end
The entire rest of it though
odd grove
And is it just me but free blade mode is kinda tricky?
tranquil cloud
Fantastic
toxic steppe
I didn't realize you were such a puzzle connoisseur
tranquil cloud
Oh it’s my favorite genre
flat prism
Cale I posted a small things in #self-promotion if you're interested in our project, sorry to bother
odd grove
Ok...
tranquil cloud
I’m always looking for more to play but I think I’m too genre-savvy at this point
All the puzzles seem derivative of stuff I’ve already played
I need to memory wipe myself haha
toxic steppe
Ooh I'll peep it Cyg
flat prism
Tytyty
toxic steppe
Did you play Monument Valley, Dama?
wide ember
and RiME?
odd grove
How do you become better at games?
toxic steppe
Just play them a bunch, I guess
It's more a time thing than it is effort, though effort is useful as well
toxic steppe
The Room?
tranquil cloud
Yep!
toxic steppe
I liked Rime a lot
tranquil cloud
All of them
flat prism
It's not exactly a puzzle game I think (?) But there is a really cool game where you play as an archaeologist and explore and translate ancient texts or something like that
toxic steppe
The best puzzle game
tranquil cloud
wHaT’s ThAt???
toxic steppe
😎
flat prism
Yeap
tranquil cloud
I LOVE heaven’s vault
I can’t believe I forgot to mention it
One of my favorite games of last year
flat prism
I want it so badly tbh
Since I don't go out and don't spend money on things might splurge on a few games
tranquil cloud
Heaven’s Vault isn’t too pricey is it?
flat prism
Full price to support
tranquil cloud
It was amazing, I played it through three times
toxic steppe
Hades also well worth it
tranquil cloud
There are choices you can make that affect outcomes significantly
flat prism
I just can't wait to have my ears be blessed with more Darren and Ashley
toxic steppe
Haha you have no idea
tranquil cloud
I got to see them play in person a few months ago!!
flat prism
I am so jealous
tranquil cloud
I only caught the tail end of their set but it was Setting Sail, Coming Home so I’m happy
flat prism
Lefksfohsbeskodepjhrfbddbdbdb
tranquil cloud
I wish I had been there for Good Riddance though
flat prism
Bastion
tranquil cloud
The line to get in to the event was CRAZY
Took way longer than I expected
But getting there super early wasn’t an option with my kids with me
tranquil cloud
Yeah, and also I’d have to have woken them up early
odd grove
I wish i had self esteem
tranquil cloud
It was a fun event though, got to see a few games in development that I’m looking forward to
flat prism
But man seeing Darren live is bucket list level
tranquil cloud
I guess it will be a while before I can see any live performances from anyone lol
flat prism
Our current project is drawing inspiration from SG games as is totally not cause of me
tranquil cloud
Haha
Anyway, we gotta go on our afternoon walk-around-the-neighborhood-avoiding-all-other-humans excursion
Back later
hexed hollow
Good luck, have fun with the social distancing walk
odd grove
We?
flat prism
Have fun
odd grove
Shouldn't you be alone?
tranquil cloud
We as in me and my family who lives with me
flat prism
Kids, family members
odd grove
I mean, you should go alone as to minimize risk
tranquil cloud
Uh? The point is to get the kids out and about to avoid going insane
We’re not going within 6 feet of anyone else
odd grove
Well, just be careful and so
tranquil cloud
This is considered an “essential” reason to go out according to the lockdown guidelines
hexed hollow
Not going insane is definitely the optimal play
tranquil cloud
The rule is to avoid gathering with anyone else
odd grove
I have stayed inside my whole life and i'm not insane just legitimately anxious
I have a paper and all
tranquil cloud
Not to hole up exclusively indoors
We send just my husband when it’s time to do stuff like grocery shopping, because contact with others is inevitable
But we all go on the walk, it’s not a super busy neighborhood, people cross the street to avoid getting close, everyone’s being responsible
odd grove
So he takes the bullet?
tranquil cloud
Dude someone needs to go get food sometimes
They are only letting a few people in the store at a time
odd grove
In my country some people refuse to follow the quarantine
tranquil cloud
And the people waiting stay apart from each other
odd grove
They get in fights with cops and all
tranquil cloud
We are following the lockdown rules
Grocery shopping is allowed, it’s necessary
Wash hands, don’t touch face, avoid others as much as possible
hexed hollow
That's gonna be the case everywhere Net
But that shouldn't stop people doing nessesary things like food shopping
fervent zenith
Yeah, starving to death is not an option for most people
Although in some parts the literal army in Spain is sending food to people lol
tranquil cloud
We have a four person household, needing to restock every so often is inevitable
A neighborhood walk is fine
Back later
odd grove
K
wide ember
take care
flat prism
People that don't follow the quarantine are the reason the virus is spreading
hexed hollow
Okies, have fun, take care ^_^
toxic steppe
Be safe Mama!
odd grove
Yup, honestly
flat prism
Take care
fervent zenith
Here we have food reserves till Saturday
toxic steppe
I have no food reserves at all
odd grove
They say stuff like "but i didn't travel" like it's any reason
flat prism
Greece is just excellent when it comes to things like this
odd grove
I went to move with my parents asap before quarantine hit
toxic steppe
It helps that Greece is TINY
hexed hollow
Some people have it and are asymptomatic so don't know 
odd grove
Sadly i left a bag of nuggets and meat in my frigde
flat prism
Nightclubs and everything closed down so people piled on each other at beaches
I'm not joking
odd grove
...Piled?
toxic steppe
Nice
flat prism
Overcrowded
wide ember
ah, Italy?
odd grove
Oh my f god
toxic steppe
But yeah, people that gather are aholes
odd grove
That happened here in Argentina too
flat prism
People are dumb ig
hexed hollow
That happened at Bondi Beach either yesterday or sunday
odd grove
Also, Cygnus, you said something about a game and so yeah?
flat prism
Yup
odd grove
I'm actually interested in all, about to study game design and development
But quarantine and all i have to wait for now
flat prism
At uni/college?
odd grove
Yes
flat prism
Daang
mild pelican
they say, virus also makes people want to go travelling, meeting other people, visiting lots of places and stuff.. as time goes on, this statement seems to me less and less of a joke..
flat prism
Nice
odd grove
The only college of my country
flat prism
It's me and only me Cale
odd grove
Do you have a continuity director?
flat prism
Technically everyone is contributing but one artist dipped because "he felt overwhelmed"
odd grove
That's important
odd grove
Ye
toxic steppe
You and you only, oof.
flat prism
I mean, it's a detective/investigation game so
odd grove
Continuity is important
flat prism
We're all careful when it comes to that
flat prism
Misgendering the what
toxic steppe
If you ever look to start expanding at any point, let me know. I've been doing creative writing for 14 years now and have helped develop some stuff before.
I also do music.
odd grove
It's when you state a completely irrelevant fact during the game, only to disregard it completely later
fervent zenith
Let me show you
flat prism
14 years
Wow
odd grove
For example, saying a cat is a girl for a joke only to say it's a boy later for another
flat prism
So basically the opposite of Chekov's gun?
odd grove
Thus, Misgendering the Cat
flat prism
Yes that's now how it's spelled but eh
odd grove
YIIK made that term
flat prism
Oh god... YIIK
fervent zenith
flat prism
Bruuh
fervent zenith
Fined for playing Pokemon GO
odd grove
Yes, YIIK
fervent zenith
Skipping the curfew
odd grove
I honestly thought YIIK had potential
fervent zenith
Ah, yes, YIIK(ES)
flat prism
@toxic steppe I'm managing fine on my own when it comes to writing, but inspiration doesn't come every day
toxic steppe
I have zero idea of what YIIK is and something tells me that's a good thing?
fervent zenith
That cringefest
flat prism
YIIK is... An interesting case of an indie game
toxic steppe
And aye, inspiration rarely does come every day.
flat prism
It's an attempt at being a self conscious game only to become a cringefest
toxic steppe
Writing has probably been the most full of obstacles out of any of my creative hobbies.
odd grove
YIIK is a decent concept soiled by unproper balance of gameplay elements, story, etc
fervent zenith
It's a game trying to be persona and MOTHER and failing miserably at both
odd grove
No like
flat prism
But still, YIIKES
toxic steppe
Undertale.
odd grove
Undertale is when you get attacked you dodge stuff
fervent zenith
YIIK: Serious scene
YIIK: Next scene: ||A GOLDEN ALPACA||
toxic steppe
Hot take but I honestly was underwhelmed with that game.
slim bobcat
it's a game that brags about being clever
fervent zenith
odd grove
YIIK is as if every attack was a duo attack from Mario and Luigi
flat prism
I still haven't played it
fervent zenith
Yep it's truly trite
odd grove
Only worse
toxic steppe
The thumbnail alone is enough to warn me.
flat prism
I read continuity as community lmao
odd grove
Oh lmao
toxic steppe
Hahaha.
odd grove
I meant continuity
toxic steppe
You essentially just mean a proof reader.
odd grove
Because mistery games need a very careful continuity
flat prism
But still, a community director could be nice
Since I'm the one fulfilling that role rn and I'm doing a very mediocre job
fervent zenith
Who would want to stand us?
flat prism
Our team is 5 members, 2 artists, a coder with minimal to no experience and a potato pc, an SFX guy and me that does writing coding and music
toxic steppe
That's rough.
flat prism
Along with discord server management
odd grove
Still, i have seen games be done with less people
odd grove
It's about knowing your abilities and managing them
flat prism
One only works traditional so like, anything he makes he has to scan
We have no set animator either
odd grove
For example, do you have a "game" you can run as of now?
flat prism
Nope
I've looked into how Unity isometric stuff works
But like, we have 0 assets
The latest concept posted was just a sketch that was left unfinished due to lack of ink with the suffix of : "is this style good also waiting for inks"
odd grove
Okay, i have gone through the EXACT same thing
flat prism
Not really
toxic steppe
pats
flat prism
Ooh
fervent zenith
Finally found THAT YIIK video
flat prism
I mean I have a vague image in my head but haven't put it on paper
odd grove
Once you make a base, people will show more motivated to do stuff on it
Not an idea in paper
toxic steppe
You definitely want to establish a narrative framework ie skeleton.
odd grove
When working as a group, you need that silhouette
flat prism
So like, story framework/branches and whatnot or something else?
odd grove
Explain the concept and direction
toxic steppe
The last thing I worked on was an ARG and I lead the writing development and before anything, I ran through the entire idea with the team and we applied the Hero's Journey and made sure it followed standard narrative beats and then began to build up around those beats.
odd grove
And most importantly, the actual game
As the program you run
Make something that can fit on the idea, then mold it as needed
Even if it's a blank plane with a HUD and buttons
toxic steppe
Ultimately your story is the foundation anyway, any game can be good even if some of its mechanics are bad because of a good narrative.
odd grove
Not quite
flat prism
Mechanically the game is going to be rather simple but since it's 2D there needs to be discussion with the artists
odd grove
I have had some time on it, and a game needs to have a minimum amount of responsiveness in order to work
flat prism
Which...aren't really active on the server to begin with
odd grove
That's another issue i ran into...
flat prism
I could make something but with other assets
odd grove
Here's the thing
If it's supposed to see if the game works
use any asset
Make a stickman in paint
Anything
fervent zenith
Oh, damn, oh damndamndamndamn
fervent zenith
Guess who voices the Main protagonist of YIIK?
odd grove
You haven't even set an artstyle
odd grove
...Who?
fervent zenith
A disgraced voice actor
An abuser sexually and physically
Imagine a nastier Mignogna
flat prism
I'll look into making stuff with assets
Thing is, we're supposed to work on the game design aspect as a team since it's the most common ground between everyone
fervent zenith
He was Byleth in FE:3H before getting outed and his voice replaced on a patch
flat prism
And I don't want to go off making and declaring things on my own without asking
fervent zenith
Outed as an abuser
flat prism
Yet again no one else on the team seems to be trying so I'm just sitting here like
This is fine
odd grove
Wait but did Vic even... do anything?
odd grove
What?
fervent zenith
Like you act inadequately on cons and the rumors are gonna fly
odd grove
I honestly never saw anything that could logically be related to Vic doing those things
fervent zenith
Welp, I prefer no stir the pot
odd grove
I just honestly don't want to instantly believe anything people say
fervent zenith
Fair enough
odd grove
And from all i saw of the vic thing... Honestly it doesn't seem he did anything improper
flat prism
Oh well
toxic steppe
She almost sounds like Cortana
Nah from this vid of the shiddy RPG they were talking about
fervent zenith
YIIK
toxic steppe
I feel bad for that voice actress lol
odd grove
Alex literally asks what's going on right after they explain it
toxic steppe
Right
toxic steppe
And the wording of that one line lol
"That you came from his world into your world"
The next character is like "I don't understand"
Yeah no sh**
odd grove
And story is the main thing for a setting
Which in turn can help a lot with the feel of a game
Which in turn complements gameplay
toxic steppe
If you read a lot of books you get a much better idea for how written dialogue should and shouldn't flow.
wide ember
did they try to sound like a webnovel
wide ember
because I feel like I've seen that kind of writing in some webnovel
toxic steppe
It was way too much supplementary information at once.
flat prism
Those cheesy romance novel things ? Not so much
odd grove
I shared some of my stuff to a friend an they liked it
But i ain't sure if it's actually good or just "yeah p cool bro"
toxic steppe
Send it to me and I'll give you a genuine answer.
odd grove
It isn't much of a story as much as a setting i shared to my friend after i said "hey wanna make a game while on quarantine"
Cuz hey, we code and sculpt, might as well
Also extremely crude
flat prism
That's how I also started
2 weeks later there's very little, if anything to show for those 2 weeks
tranquil cloud
I’ve been writing fanfic nonstop lol
Need some sort of creative outlet in quarantine
toxic steppe
I'm in a Discord text RP rn.
flat prism
I have a bit of intro written, some general world building and a few tracks I can work on
toxic steppe
But it's stalling which is the opposite of what I expected a lockdown to do.
Would you like to read some worldbuilding of my own that I've done, Cyg?
flat prism
Sure
hasty kernel
See, the issues with getting everyone in a team to cooperate with the whole game dev thing is half of why I want to try making games on my own for now
odd grove
The perk of multiple visions along manpower is far too good to pass up tho
hasty kernel
Well, theoretically anyway
wide ember
it is takes an organizer with good leadership skill
too bad I have very little leadership skill
hasty kernel
Maybe, but finding people and organising them is a pain and I dont want to have to compromise on my visions
wide ember
you need to find someone with said leadership skill and tell them to organize for you
this is why old time artists have patrons right
they take care of the money and marketing
hasty kernel
Right but the leader is gonna set the path the devs will follow
flat prism
Working solo is much more time consuming, it would really have to be a passion project
hasty kernel
If its not me, I have to compromise on my vision
I mean, yeah
Thats what it would be
flat prism
Dust: an elysian tail comes to mind
hasty kernel
Granted Id start with small games
flat prism
Other than voice acting it's all a single guy
wide ember
let's pull a makoto kusanagi: buy 3 spare android bodies and remote control them into a self-made team
hasty kernel
Because I have negative talent when it comes to composition
hasty kernel
Anyway Im also waiting to get better at art/writing before fully starting
wide ember
no wait you've already started, no?
hasty kernel
Well
flat prism
If you're part of a team, everyone is making compromises
wide ember
I remember the drawing you made
hasty kernel
Ive made concepts
wide ember
yes and that
hasty kernel
But lets call them more
Preparation
Than actually starting
Yes I know, thats why I wanna do this solo at first
wide ember
if you have a really good team, it's less compromise and more aiming the same direction
hasty kernel
There are a number of games I wanna make that I definitely wont be able to do solo
But Ill deal with that once I get there
For now I hone my skills, start small, and see where that takes me
toxic steppe
From my experience, working with a team on Discord is already a super rough experience, especially if it's a passion project and not something that's going to be treated with a certain level of professional dignity.
There's a fine line between being interested in an idea and actually wanting to make that idea into a reality.
hasty kernel
Yeah
toxic steppe
And without the main motivator, aka, MONEY
hasty kernel
If you wanna work in a team, its gotta be a proper job, or you gotta be close friends
flat prism
Cale that's basically me rn
flat prism
Anyways, gn y'all
wide ember
night
wide ember
well, I've seen many fan games being made with zero money to be gained
toxic steppe
They definitely exist.
But I personally believe that it's lightning in a bottle.
All the right things need to line up to accomplish something like that.
wide ember
yes, they already had the community
and also it's less directing and more cadavre exquis?
toxic steppe
Look at you with the vocabulary.
hasty kernel
It works if theyre friends Id argue
toxic steppe
I don't think I've ever seen a human being use the phrase 'cadavre exquis' outside of a book.
hasty kernel
Or just generally
toxic steppe
So you get points.
hasty kernel
Likeminded people
wide ember
so A writes texts of X character, B writes texts of Y character, then after put them together and the musician comes in and makes a music of that-
wait what
hasty kernel
Oh, Exquisite Corpse
wide ember
you said you've been doing creating writing for 14 years and UNOvven is UNOvven so I finally felt safe enough to use some of my vocabulary
toxic steppe
I'm not complaining.
hasty kernel
I know the english version but Ive never seen the french one before
Partially due to my nations natural aversion to french
toxic steppe
It's a fresh breath of air because my roommates, sans one, and bless them, are IDIOTS
and i'm STUCK WITH THEM
tranquil cloud
I got a crazy high score on the verbal section of the GRE and I don’t know “cadavre exquis”
Lol
hasty kernel
See thats why I live with my family, theyre all academics
wide ember
I get mocked a lot in real life because I tend to use words that others don't know and yet don't understand their memes
wide ember
part of my vocabulary is because of the researches I've done for my personal projects and part is because I used to hang out with really smart people, and part is because my parents like to use me as living dictionary/encyclopedia
tranquil cloud
Ah sorry I didn’t mean to come across as mocking
wide ember
no no I didn't think any of you were mocking me
tranquil cloud
That’s good
hasty kernel
I just like neat words
tranquil cloud
My extended family gives me a hard time about my word choices sometimes too
hasty kernel
A lot of "fancy" words are neat
tranquil cloud
I’ve kind of adapted to dumb down my vocabulary around people I don’t know well
toxic steppe
Fancy words are just French words d:
hasty kernel
Nah
tranquil cloud
I learned an excellent word the other day, “deracinating”
wide ember
I've said things like "so you can't handle him because he was being too mercurial?" and got "what??" in return
tranquil cloud
And now I’m sure I’m going to see it all over the place from now on lol
toxic steppe
There's a term for that phenomenon
tranquil cloud
Yes
toxic steppe
Baader-Meinhof.
toxic steppe
I'm crying.
tranquil cloud
Lol my stupid autocorrect
toxic steppe
Auto-correct is beautiful.
wide ember
ah, the "green car" psychology
tranquil cloud
I try to do that keyboard mashing thing to express emotion
And it turns it into “eyeshadow”
wide ember
lol
hasty kernel
Wait, Baader-Meinhof?
wide ember
frequency illusion
tranquil cloud
Baader-Meinhof yes, like when you learn of a concept for the first time and then it seems to start coming up all the time
hasty kernel
Huh
wide ember
you don't realize how many green cars there are until you've bought a green car
hasty kernel
Im just confused because I only know Baader-Meinhof in the context of that german terrorist organisation
tranquil cloud
But really it’s just that while you were unfamiliar with it your brain was just not really noticing instances of it
mild pelican
my friend recently discovered a game: if you're using cell phone, try typing a word and then mash all the words suggested by autofilling feature
mild pelican
results can be interesting
wide ember
our brain is naturally "xenophobic", anything too foreign to it bounces off it like water off hydrophobic lotus leaves
tranquil cloud
Cognitive psych is a really cool subject
hasty kernel
Fascinating
tranquil cloud
I did my masters thesis on game theoretical modeling of certain social cognition phenomena
hasty kernel
Also Im struggling with one thing while writing right now
Which is that I dont know my MCs motivation and that all solutions I could come up with either make him a prick, or are basically copying a story that was already made
wide ember
Dama, you are one degree higher than me in academics, I might ask you questions about psychology in the future
oh, UNOvven, I have just mentioned the colour chart method lately, I'll mention it here again
for character creation
tranquil cloud
Oh sure, you’d be welcome to, but be aware I did things from the math side, I only did a minor in psychology in my undergrad and one social psych seminar in grad school
So I’m not that familiar with like, grant application processes which comes up a lot for psychology grad students
I don’t think I could ever make any progress writing if I didn’t have a solid grasp of character motivation
hasty kernel
Yeah, thats the issue
I dont wanna write until I resolve it
But I cant resolve it
tranquil cloud
I can’t write anything at all if I’m not fully in a character’s head
wide ember
ok looks like colour chart method will come in handy for that
because it's creating 2+ characters at once, usually 3
tranquil cloud
Can you like... immerse yourself as the character and even if you don’t fully understand your own motivation, work out what you’d do by feel?
Ah sorry
I know that was the vaguest .... advice .... ever
hasty kernel
Nah that is how I usually do things
I basically let the characters create themselves
The problem is that sometimes, that leaves parts of it vague
And when you try to conceptualise that vague aspect, you realise there is a contradiction
Or an inconsistency
tranquil cloud
I think it’s okay if you don’t have explicit knowledge of everything as long as the character themself doesn’t either
wide ember
(I'll let Dama finish and then I'll start mine)
tranquil cloud
People are inconsistent sometimes
hasty kernel
For example, the character in question is a spell thief
As in, he steals peoples unique spells
The question was, why?
tranquil cloud
@wide ember sounds like he has a lot more technical understanding of this, so listen to him, lol
hasty kernel
Initially solving that seemed simple "he needed all spells to unlock an unspecified magical thingamagic"
Then i realised I didnt know why he wanted to do that
mild pelican
guess, untill the character is believeable and realistic, it's okay if there is small inconsistency
tranquil cloud
What is the purpose of unlocking the thingy?
Like generally speaking
Not from your char’s perspective
hasty kernel
Basically it gives you full access to the core of magic
You can do just about anything with it
tranquil cloud
Is he just power-seeking?
wide ember
ok I'll do the colour chart method, it's kind of based on the archetype studies but also at least 2km apart
tranquil cloud
Or is he trying to solve a problem?
wide ember
see, in psychology, you need "mirror" or "filter" people to understand yourself
tranquil cloud
Is he lacking a necessary resource?
wide ember
so when you make a character, you'll need to make those characters for them
and also, psychology of how people like to gather
tranquil cloud
This seems like less if a lack of character understanding and more like a story details thing
If it’s an external motivation rather than intrinsic
wide ember
"quest" and "conflict" are traditional methods that are good in basic creative writing classes, but after the intro classes in uni you learn to discard them
hasty kernel
Well, he is supposed to be a gentleman thief archetype kinda deal
wide ember
and it's not good for character creation either, just for story plot
hasty kernel
So youre supposed to be able to sympathise with him
wide ember
so colour chart method is, see, this is how you pick colours: https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/dZPbQ6c5_TfHiVzeXby8XrBdzGCOKznewA5rV0vOweo/https/image.shutterstock.com/z/stock-vector-color-theory-with-hue-tint-shades-wheels-for-primary-secondary-and-supplementary-combinations-1069619102.jpg?width=341&height=330
tranquil cloud
Character needs to steal spells to unlock thingy because even though they are essentially good-natured... plot happened and resolving that is a higher priority than behaving morally toward others?
hasty kernel
That rules out power-seeking
hasty kernel
Well the idea I had is that initially its to try and find their missing dad (as the plan to steal spells and unlock the thingie was in the notebook, the only memento the MC has from him), and then its to stop a nefarious organisation from unlocking it themselves
wide ember
(ok this is getting all mixed up, I should let dama finish, then dm later)
wide ember
no no, what you are doing isn't wrong either, it's just that yours is from social psych + literature approach, and mine is from comparative literature approach
you did talk very much like a social worker
hasty kernel
So now Im stuck in a weird limbo kind of place
wide ember
which helps with understanding of motives, though it's more case-by-case
tranquil cloud
That is probably more useful! You should go ahead
toxic steppe
...
hasty kernel
The alternative would be to make the targets he steals from villainous
Thats usually how you do gentleman thief archetypes
Buuut Ive already figured those characters out and theyre not villainous
And I kinda dont wanna change em
toxic steppe
What exactly are you struggling with?
toxic steppe
Oh bro
hasty kernel
Why does he steal spells while also being sympathetic and not an egotistical maniac
toxic steppe
Do I have some exercises for you
wide ember
the other people around him is part of why
hasty kernel
Well, he is working alone
wide ember
so in the colour chart method, you create groups of characters from one character
toxic steppe
Give me a moment to get back to my computer
hasty kernel
Thats the other part of the gentleman thief archetype
odd grove
Why not
wide ember
he probably had influences in his life
odd grove
Something like Rubick, the Grand Magus from Dota?
wide ember
even though by current time he works alone
toxic steppe
I have a process outline that I use that I can share with you
odd grove
You see, he steals spells out of curiosity
But frequently forgets them because he lacks enough interest to keep them o his mind for long
tranquil cloud
This is backwards from how I usually write anyway. You have a character and the behavior you want from them and you need to figure out the external factors that prompt that behavior. I always start with the external factors and the characters, and write whatever behavior would result
hasty kernel
Well there is already a character like Rubick, so that doesnt work either
tranquil cloud
So I don’t think I can be of any help, really
hasty kernel
Well the idea I started with was spell-stealing story
toxic steppe
If I may.
This is a scene outline I use that demonstrates a bit of my process -
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LnuQqhHHYuIVE19bTUkNFISRNOsRQL8lqwCKT-WwGfM/edit
tranquil cloud
I’m not criticizing, just saying my usual approach is utterly unhelpful here lol
toxic steppe
Which can also be retrofitted to apply to character motivations.
And I can go very in depth about it.
But with this usage the character motivations are already being considered so there's really no point in separating the process.
wide ember
looks like a very good outline for tabletop campaigns
tranquil cloud
It’s like I don’t know how to do story algebra lol
toxic steppe
I can actually show you the finished scene that this was intended for, if you want to see how well it works.
tranquil cloud
The equation is: character + external factors = behavior
But I can only do addition lol
wide ember
we are outside their timeline
we can bypass their cause and effect and pick from anytime
hasty kernel
Ill be honest
wide ember
so we can start with any of the 3 points
tardy ore
That just sounds like different cognitive processes involved...
hasty kernel
I cant even seem to understand your outline
toxic steppe
Hahaha
hasty kernel
I might just be tired
wide ember
ask fifty writers and they may say fifty different things
tranquil cloud
Yeah I understand that I should be able to do that, but only one way seems to work well for my own process
toxic steppe
I can go in depth about it, the ultimate boiling point is that writing is very structural and there are some pretty agreed upon universal guidelines and processes that you can work through to build up the narrative framework.
Any obstacle you might run into while writing can be overcome.
And there will be plenty.
For some reason your muse likes to hurdle most often when writing.
tardy ore
@tranquil cloud as far as I'm concerned, there's no "should" other than what works for you
hasty kernel
Id go one step further, ask fifty writers and you get 60 different answers
tranquil cloud
@tardy ore true true, and I just write for fun, not for a living
I’m not beating myself up about it
toxic steppe
I added the scene the outline was for to the bottom of the outline if anybody actually cares enough to read through the whole thing.
hasty kernel
Anyway Ill probably just keep thinking about it until I find the spark that I need
wide ember
character + external factors = behavior is indeed very good for fanfics
mild pelican
also, i guess, when your life is interesting or complicated enough to be a part of some story, a character made by you can look more consistent then if made by anyone else
wide ember
alternate history stories can also profit from that
hasty kernel
Sure, maybe it helps
wide ember
huh, Volus, that is an interesting point
tardy ore
My life contains almost entirely stuff I don't want to focus on in writing.
mild pelican
well, if you want to achieve in life something.. and your character wants similar thing.. maybe not exactly same, but similar
toxic steppe
I'm at a point in my life where I'm beginning to consider writing about parts of it.
I'm definitely beginning to understand more as I get older, at least, the sort of influence that your life can have in your writing.
In your art in general.
tardy ore
It's more in the sense of "Ugh, it's either mundane or overdramatic."
toxic steppe
What isn't, though?
wide ember
in Inception, it was discussed that it's best to avoid putting too much of your life in it, because you also put your inner demons in them
hasty kernel
I mean one solution for my predicament would be to just not be bothered by the fact that it might sound similiar to Magic Kaito
toxic steppe
Yeah.
hasty kernel
But conceding that your idea isnt very creative doesnt sit well with me
tardy ore
I sure as hell don't like hearing my own life story enough to put it in fiction... and I don't like writing realistic stories anyway.
wide ember
the meta perception is that the inner demons are part of makes the story alive
tardy ore
@hasty kernel Being similar to another thing isn't uncreative.
toxic steppe
I mean, pretty much all stories are the same story anyway, at the very core of it.
tardy ore
There are no original stories etc etc
hasty kernel
Yknow, I never liked that sentiment
toxic steppe
I think it's equal parts the story and the voice of the one telling it.
tardy ore
I think it is a bit of oversimplification to say that there's only one or only a tiny handful of plots though.
tardy ore
That's essentialism, and I don't have truck with essentialism
toxic steppe
smh
mild pelican
there are two kinds of stories: ones which shows life as it is, and ones that are meant to be a place to escape from routine
toxic steppe
I only use the sentiment as a counter to the sentiment that you shouldn't write a story similar to another.
The point is that who tf cares if stories share similar points.
Because it's bound to happen.
tardy ore
But I will say that a story having similarities to another one isn't really the same thing as not being creative enough.
That part is correct
💯
wide ember
and the kind of stories of what life could very well be, made into a new routine
hasty kernel
RIP
mild pelican
🇫
toxic steppe
Dang it.
I was just saying that a story is nuanced, obviously.
I think we all know what a story is though.
hasty kernel
Ok this might reveal that I used to listen the hell out of Linkin Park, but isnt it "It doesn't even matter"
wide ember
true
tardy ore
wide ember
what it is doesn't matter, how it feels is what matters
toxic steppe
I'm just using the proper past participle aren't I
cause
ONE THING
I DON'T KNOW WHY
hasty kernel
Granted at least I dont know every single lyric to In the End like I do for breaking the habit
toxic steppe
IT DOESN'T EVEN MATTER HOW HARD I TRY
tardy ore
(Every time I hear their name I think "LinkedIn Park" and think of a bunch of suited businessy people singing)
hasty kernel
Speaking of band puns
Every time someone says "Cheers!"
I immediately have to think ".... for fears"
tardy ore
d?
tardy ore
@hasty kernel beers for fears, with the new Corona beer thing
Also, when in doubt add more puns
I'd play a game about a magic stealing wizard thief
That's like "Hey, FINALLY my damn character class gets some love"
toxic steppe
Have you played Wizards of Legend
toxic steppe
The magic in that game is a chef's kiss
toxic steppe
Ain't that just the way
hasty kernel
Ill be honest, I dont even remember how I cam up with the idea, or why I wanted to write it
tardy ore
I'm a fan of Sanderson-style rule magic
tardy ore
Cosmere gang
hasty kernel
The magic system I got for this story is a bit more free
tardy ore
Magic systems are the one... uh, biggest thing I'm good at designing.
hasty kernel
Usually I prefer heavily rulebound
tardy ore
And worlds and critters
hasty kernel
But that didnt make much sense for this one
faint panther
Bending is cool.
tardy ore
I'm awful at the specifics of plot, outside of broad goals and outlines
And characters are hit and miss
hasty kernel
Usually I have no trouble with characters
Which is why I have such a hard time fixing a problem once it does appear
tardy ore
Me forgetting to have an actual protagonist in the week long xenobiology exercise: oop
toxic steppe
I'm kinda sorta developing a roleplay campaign that's set during the pre-Avatar era back when society still lived separate from each other on the backs of Lion-Turtles and bending was given/taken by them when people journeyed into the Spirit Wilds.
faint panther
Good luck with that!
tardy ore
Nice.
toxic steppe
I was going to have it in the Fate system and Bending would be a mechanic, but players would only temporarily have it and it'd change between the four Elements.
mild pelican
sounds interesting
tardy ore
So who was the Avatar after Wan?
tardy ore
I always kinda figured it would be Avatar Tu.
toxic steppe
Probably T-
tardy ore
<:
toxic steppe
damnit
tardy ore
Yeah, that was just setup for the joke
Oh right. I had a whoooole set of headcanons for Advanced Bending
tardy ore
Earth has lava and metal. Fire has lightning. Water has blood.
My idea for air? Soundbending
toxic steppe
Airbending is essentially Illusion lol
You could make yourself invisible with airbending.
tardy ore
Oh right, light was also For Consideration
Although I forget whether that was a fire thing for me.
toxic steppe
Vacuumbending
tardy ore
Sound though...
mild pelican
Lightbending :Pog:
toxic steppe
You bend the air and change how it refracts light.
tardy ore
But that sounds plausible.
I just remember I went hard on developing the sound thing as a concept...
hasty kernel
To bend it so hard that it refracts light around you
faint panther
That sounds like one of those "theoretically possible, but would require modern day knowledge of chemistry/physics."
hasty kernel
I imagine the pressure would be incredible, and it would create a sonic boom
tranquil cloud
Like how Toph invented metal bending
tardy ore
But this was also in preparation for a modern/future era Avatar fic I never properly tried to write.
faint panther
Toph invented metalbending by her seismic sense being so ridiculously sensitive that she was able to detect the errant earths still in the metal.
tranquil cloud
Yes but I mean
hasty kernel
Anyway airbendings advanced method is interesting
You could have it just be bending any gas
tardy ore
Oh right. I actually did go solid liquid gas plasma
tranquil cloud
That would have been easier for someone who already knows that
hasty kernel
Perhaps the ability to seperate the gasses within air
tranquil cloud
Like there are a bunch of metal benders in legend of Korra, they don’t all have the same degree of sensitivity
hasty kernel
Create pockets of oxygen
mild pelican
bending sound and light to create a fictional lightning and pretend you're a powerful firebender.. wait, it is illusion then
toxic steppe
Metalbending in Korra is so COOL
tardy ore
Since firebenders derive their power from the sun to some extent, and that's just superheated plasma...
toxic steppe
THEY JUST SPIDER-MAN AROUND
faint panther
No, but I bet that detecting it could be a teachable skill.
toxic steppe
I really like the Kuvira arc because of all the metalbending.
faint panther
Also Korrasami. 
tardy ore
Aw ye
Korra had some... lame elements, mostly the obligatory teenage love triangle crap
toxic steppe
I'd like Korrasami more if I got more than like 2 seconds of it
I think there's a comic tho
tardy ore
That too
faint panther
There is, I've been meaning to get them.
wide ember
official comic?
faint panther
Yup.
tardy ore
When the canon ship appears at the last second because it's been blocked by like 3 seasons of awkward conventional love triangle drama.
toxic steppe
I actually liked Mako x Korra.
mild pelican
there are a lot of unofficial art, and not always speakable of
toxic steppe
I rooted for Bolin on my first watch but on rewatch Korra and Mako were fine. 🤷♂️
tardy ore
Also, each season revolving around a different form of political extremism and being on point about it was pretty :pog:
wide ember
I wanted ot3
toxic steppe
And I remember hating Book 2 but when I rewatched it ended up being my favorite lol.
tardy ore
First watch: "C'mon, did they do this because the network ordered it?"
faint panther
You're the first person I've ever met who's said book 2 was their favorite.
toxic steppe
Ikr
tardy ore
Which one was which?
toxic steppe
It catches what I think it unnecessary flak.
And my rewatch I was watching it fresh on the heels of binging all of TLA again.
tardy ore
Book two was... who again
toxic steppe
Book 2 was Spirits.
faint panther
Been a long time since I've seen it, I didn't hate it, but it just wasn't nearly as good as 1, 3, and 4.
tardy ore
I liked the Nuktuk song.
toxic steppe
It introduced Wan, Vaatu and Raava, etc.
tardy ore
And the endless jokes about Vaatu being a Reaper
toxic steppe
I'd probably need to rewatch AGAIN to reiterate why it's my favorite tho
tardy ore
Ah yes, "spirits"
mild pelican
it was a favourite show of my friend, even inspired her first nickname.. untill book 2
tranquil cloud
I love the fight choreography in korra
faint panther
Maybe I should rewatch with the knowledge that it was supposed to be The Last Airbender.
mild pelican
she never finished watching, i believe
tranquil cloud
Especially that zaheer vs tenzin fight
toxic steppe
After the Netflix Witcher I'm cautiously more optimistic about the live action The Last Airbender show they're doing.
tardy ore
Oh? They're finally making a live action Avatar?
toxic steppe
Yeah, both OG writers are on board too.
tranquil cloud
I will... give it a chance
mild pelican
oh goodness
tardy ore
Man, it's been a while since the shows. I can't believe they're actually trying to adapt it to live at last.
faint panther
I wish they wouldn't adapt and instead would introduce new story in the universe.
tranquil cloud
The Dragon Prince, anyone?
tardy ore
@tranquil cloud oh yeah the fight scenes were big pog
faint panther
Like, what's the Avatar four cycles down doing?
mild pelican
i still remember the other live action show, and if it's.. pls no
tardy ore
I'm on the TDP train but waiting until the next season is confirmed...
Was it?
I live under several rocks.
tranquil cloud
Not sure
tardy ore
Also, I would have preferred a new Avatar show
tranquil cloud
But I’ve really enjoyed the exciting stuff
Existing
That IS A WORD ALREADY, Autocorrect!!
tardy ore
Rather than a remake, I want a future series with fancy bending assisted tech
Cough cough
Mistborn third series when?
tranquil cloud
That’s kind of my feeling about a lot of live action remakes
toxic steppe
I think they're bringing the cartoon to Netflix too?
tardy ore
I don't see that much appeal in live action in and of itself, on that note.
mild pelican
also, the universe is good enough to have some stories without the actual avatars
tranquil cloud
Like give me a live action Mulan sequel where we can have Ming-na Wen playing live action Mulan
mild pelican
like, spinoff.. what happened while Aang was frozen
toxic steppe
There's a Mulan sequel already
tranquil cloud
Like 20-30 years later
tardy ore
Even just some kind of slice of life in that universe
@toxic steppe What do you mean. There's no such thing. 4Head
Just like there's no live action Avatar yet
tardy ore
toxic steppe
Our three bois get a romance plot
tardy ore
Just kidding, I watched the crap out of that movie.
toxic steppe
THEY GOT THEIR GIRLS WORTH FIGHTING FOR
faint panther
Make a war movie set during the Hundred Year War.
tardy ore
And most of the DTV Disney ones
tranquil cloud
You know what Disney sequel is actually fantastic? Cinderella 3
faint panther
don't set it during Iroh's failed siege
tranquil cloud
There is a YouTube compilation of highlights absolutely worth watching
toxic steppe
Iroh's life would be interesting.
tardy ore
I wish they hadn't butchered the whole idea of an Atlantis sequel
Also
Where's my Treasure Planet 2, Disney
toxic steppe
Apparently the episodes in the new live action Avatar are going to be like 45 mins
tardy ore
Never forget, never forgive
faint panther
Look, Tales of Ba Sing Se is bad enough.
toxic steppe
Compared to the OG 20
faint panther
Oh.
tranquil cloud
I think whatever happened while Aang was frozen would be too depressing to watch
faint panther
Okay, I'm watching that now.
tardy ore
mild pelican
Where's my Treasure Planet 2, Disney
@tardy ore exactly :c
tardy ore
Okay, but again, now I'm wondering: What exactly is the whole deal with live action remakes of animation?
I don't... get it, as a phenomenon
faint panther
They could make it PG-13. 
mild pelican
i've never been too much in remakes of originals.. since childhood
tranquil cloud
Some people will not watch animation
mild pelican
why such people even exist
tranquil cloud
This way they catch all the people sufficiently nostalgic for the originally AND all the anti-animation folks
Oh it’s still about money lol
It’s about grabbing a wider audience
mild pelican
like, "am not goeng to wutch it, itz too old for me"
tardy ore
The anti-animation thing is just absurd to me lmao
tranquil cloud
I agree
mild pelican
anti-anime too
tardy ore
On another note
Anyone here into non-human-focused stories?
Just in general
Unrelated ish
toxic steppe
Honestly I recommend watching the video I linked a bit ago. It has a lot of information that's made me even more hype now.
They're using the filming tech that the Mandalorian does.
tranquil cloud
I do like anime but I kind of understand how some people could get turned off to it as an entire genre because of tropes they can’t get past
toxic steppe
Like, that crazy LED wall they use
tardy ore
Anime isn't even a genre though
toxic steppe
For super realistic sets
tardy ore
It's a medium...
tardy ore
People are silly to think of it that way.
mild pelican
i can understand, when people dislike the visuals
wide ember
I can understand too... staring at all the waifu shows
staring harder at the loli waifu shows
tranquil cloud
There are some tropes that are common in anime regardless of the genre within the medium
tardy ore
Something something othering, something something the outgroup is seen as a monolith, is also a factor
hasty kernel
Unfortunately yeah
mild pelican
but sometimes they're just like "ah, (insert genre/medium) is for [censored]"
tranquil cloud
Which could reasonably make people dislike it if they don’t know of the counterexamples
hasty kernel
On a slightly related sidenote, ID:Invaded, that anime that was a lot like AI the Somnium Files finished recently
toxic steppe
RUFIOOOO