i wanna see Ashen too
#off-topic-discussion
velvet void
I remember when TB showed off Below when it got announced way back when
Game looked sick
velvet void
Even more so now
hollow dagger
i remember seeing transistor for the first time from him
and realizing "THERES A NEW SUPERGIANT GAME?"
velvet void
Same
Wished he could of lived to see one more good 40k game before he passed
Cuz 40k mechanicus was great
hexed hollow
TB is ultimately in a better place now, free from the pain of going through what he did
hollow dagger
never played or seen anything 40k its kinda scary how big 40k is
pulsar cosmos
@vale meadow I am 110% not joking when I say that I got "Jack the Stripper" printed on my leavers hoodie back when I left highschool
pulsar cosmos
I thought it was so funny until I realised my teachers had to see it
silk flume
That must have been an interesting convo.
main orbit
I wonder, how big community of Russian-speaking fans of Supergiants is?
velvet void
humble swallow
Pretty big as I know, Russians are literally everywhere xd
velvet void
torpid osprey
i'm sold
this looks really good
i feel like i'm watching Mass Effect, Bioshock and Fallout at the same time
with good voice acting and facial expressions
cerulean cloak
tfw no death stranding news at the game awards š š«
hexed hollow
I'm not suprised honestly
somber bloom
Well, we don't really know or understand a lot about Death Stranding yet
humble swallow
Hmmm, for me it looks just a bit like We Happy Few :V, well, it's from Obsidian so we can expect something interesting
hexed hollow
I think Kojeima wants to make sure it's ready before showing anymore
velvet void
Pretty sure Kojima doesn't want anyone to know anything about the game
hexed hollow
Nobody understands what death's stranding is
velvet void
Even when youre playing
hexed hollow
I think it's both
cerulean cloak
i'm just pissed cause it's been 2 years and we still don't know anything about it
velvet void
Heh
somber bloom
It is a Kojima game, I don't really see them as making sense
velvet void
This guy gets it
hexed hollow
Wait and see, we won't know what the game is untill people get their hands on it
And even then we'll have no clue probably
velvet void
I don't think people will even then
hidden glacier
more money for devs -> more budget for next game
tbh the only pro for steam is the fact that it has most of my games already
also cool for mp because of friends
other than that it is pretty broken and it always recommend me junks š¢
wanton echo
Dunno the epic store feels like a massive thing for the market if it works, imma support it. Valve needs to do better to keep me there. They keep mistreating smaller devs and for me thats a huge no no
distant wolf
'-'
hidden glacier
steam also has issues from players perspective imo
but epic store looks... pretty primitive?
hidden glacier
maybe it will get better with time tho
somber bloom
Epic store is also new @hidden glacier, steam has had over a decade to make itself what it is
distant wolf
In South america region, he is using dollars yet
hidden glacier
I hope so
distant wolf
Yep
hollow dagger
sales
distant wolf
I think so o
hollow dagger
more geims? and its also a thing about time
wanton echo
Yeah the guy that is in charge of the project said that more features are to come. Quoting the tweet "Many features will come online later next year, including reviews, achievements, mod support, parental controls, and more currencies for regional pricing."
hollow dagger
like if time passes and they become like a big think
distant wolf
(My english is very bad, i'm sorry...)
wanton echo
@distant wolf not at all!
hollow dagger
thing*
distant wolf
Yeah
hollow dagger
cuz right now its kinda concering, like should i buy a game in a launcher i may never use again
hidden glacier
you should because it is SGG š
wanton echo
For me its easier, I use the unreal engine, so I will bound to use the launcher for ever
distant wolf
Yep
wanton echo
Steam grew up off the back of half life and TF2 communities being massive. So yeah, everyone has an stepping stone
distant wolf
In 2016, foitniteb is underground
random trout
They've had a number of good games before Fortnite, but it has empowered them a lot and I don't believe that's a bad thing.
distant wolf
He famous grow up in final 2017- 2018
wanton echo
yeah regardless of your liking of a game. Cultural impact from games normalices the media and is overall good for the industry
random trout
Yep
distant wolf
Yep
wanton echo
Fortnite is not my game, but I support epic for their archievements. The same I do with Overwatch
even though I love me some overwatch
distant wolf
Stremmers make a boost for fortnite famous
random trout
I mean, they broke my heart when Paragon fell to the axe, but I will still support their platform. They have developers in mind. Valve rested on their laurels a little.
distant wolf
Overwatch is dead, the comunity is killing overwatch.
wanton echo
Valve not a month ago messed up the discoverability of indie games cutting traffic to their store pages by more than 60%. That is unnacceptable
random trout
Plus, all that money from Steam, and still no HL3. 
potent saddle
Overwatchās community makes any mode but arcade nearly unplayable tbh
distant wolf
Skate 4 confirmes (crying frome inside)
random trout
It's one of the few games that has a better experience on console va PC.
hollow dagger
I think steam now is big, jsut because people have the habit of using it
distant wolf
Yep
hollow dagger
it has this established crowd that has no where else to go
potent saddle
Yeah even with all the awful things about it itās not ever gonna die
hollow dagger
cuz theres nothing better
potent saddle
Because everyone has big libraries and accounts on there
random trout
GOD I WANTED SKATE 4 SO BAD 
hollow dagger
even tho steam is not all that great
distant wolf
If tou have a pc, and you are a TRUE GAMER(Kappa) you must have a stean account
potent saddle
Epic wonāt kill steam but itāll compete
wanton echo
And who benefits from competition?
potent saddle
Free game every 2 weeks is pretty š„ tho
hollow dagger
yay us
distant wolf
Yep
wanton echo
Every client š
hollow dagger
i am glad for what epic is doing, just nice to see change happening
and not this static steam monopoly
wanton echo
Man I wish there were more free games when I was a poor kid, played 3k hours of tf2 because I could not afford anything else
hollow dagger
its not that i hate steam ,or love epic, just nice to see change
hollow dagger
theeres oddly a lot of free stuff going around now
i think its kinda this streaming culture
distant wolf
In my opinion
hollow dagger
like with game pass and all that
potent saddle
Like even if you canāt afford new games thereās stuff like Humble Bundle that gives games for super cheap
distant wolf
The fortnite problem is the comunitty its so cringe
wanton echo
Yeah and also games shifting from Pay when you buy to pay for premium content after release made everything sustainable
velvet void
It's cringe cuz it's for children
distant wolf
Yep
potent saddle
Itās actually a good game
velvet void
Well aimed at children
potent saddle
But the people who play it are the worst
distant wolf
Yep
hollow dagger
i never played it i wouldnt have an opinion
potent saddle
Itās like any Nintendo game or Rick and Morty
distant wolf
The game is good
wanton echo
like games are way more expensive to make now, the only way the market survived was by making games accessible to different tiers of income
hollow dagger
i mean it makes sense, its the most popular ggame right now
more people bigger chance of childish people
velvet void
I played some fork knife but I stopped since I was trying to play a shooter and everyone else was playing Minecraft
Decided it wasn't for me
wanton echo
Same, I went back to pubg
hollow dagger
remember when fortnite was a horde mode?
wanton echo
Now I am on R6Siege for it
distant wolf
I played 5 matches of fortnite
hollow dagger
and it just seemed like an innocent lil game
velvet void
Lol I do
potent saddle
I disagree @wanton echo the games industry is actually doing just fine. In fact if anything is gonna kill it itās the lack of complete games and how many microtransactions and stuff there are
Good and complete games sell
And make plenty of money
distant wolf
Fortnite save the world dont be launch
potent saddle
The problem is the investors who donāt understand how video games work
somber bloom
Another thing is that investors take A LOT of money from AAA companies, and that makes games need to reach insane sales goals to be considered successful @wanton echo
Extra types of DLC, Microtransactions and more editions are more to get more money to the company than the fact that it is costly to make a game
wanton echo
@potent saddle I mean its doing fine because of that, not despite that for what I have seen working on the inside
somber bloom
They don't want some of the money, they want all of the money.
potent saddle
I get that they gotta make an unreasonable amount of money to please investors I just think there are ways to make money that donāt include selling things that should be in the game
RDR2 and GTA5 sold too many copies
somber bloom
RDR2 got too many prices at the game awards
distant wolf
Yep
cerulean cloak
still need to play spoderman
distant wolf
Celestia to the beast indie game
somber bloom
Still need to get a PS4 to then buy Spider Man and play it
wanton echo
btw Journey is coming to PC on the epic store
distant wolf
The spider man game ia the beast super hero game, before the batman sereis
velvet void
Noice
wanton echo
amazing game that I could not play
distant wolf
Yep
wanton echo
did not have a ps3 or ps4
hollow dagger
cool but weird
velvet void
That's actually hype
warm basin
@tardy anchor selling directly from their website isnt a platform though
hollow dagger
next u tell me bloodborne will be on epic store
wanton echo
thats a big part of what makes me invested on the store
cerulean cloak
man journey was awesome, glad more people are getting to play it
distant wolf
New dragon age
wanton echo
like you dont see ps4 exclusives just POP into pc
distant wolf
New crash game
cerulean cloak
my little brother hated it but then it clicked for him and he loves it now
hollow dagger
its just nice to see like risks taken
cerulean cloak
he's 11 btw
distant wolf
New mortal kombat
wanton echo
Its a great time to be a gamer IMO
cerulean cloak
oh hey, did you guys hear about the new supergiant game?
hollow dagger
i still cant see why celeste is so loved myabe i need to give it a better try
wanton echo
@hollow dagger because its a really well designed platformer. Loved it
hollow dagger
last year was the best year for indies to me
tardy anchor
epic games may require them to sell thru them only. I dont know....that said its day 1, they may be working on adding it soon!
My main point is that theyve released games before- if something isnt released a certain way, its probably not because they havent thought of it yet. Either itll be there soon or it cant exist for a valid reason š 
@warm basin
hollow dagger
it was insane
distant wolf
Anyone view the new avangers trailer?
hollow dagger
i am a sucker for idnies idk why i couldnt get into it
warm basin
@tardy anchor ive followed SG since bastion and strangely enough Jen Zee since before SG was a studio, i understand theyve probably thought of it - maybe less 'suggestion' and more 'desire' on my part to go back to a time when companies offered direct purchasing and downloading from their own websites (which i believe would be 100% profit), just putting my hopes in the hope bucket
vale meadow
Yeet
velvet void
Yote
chrome olive
Re: epic games digital store, I fail to see what's intrinsically awful about it.
It might be a slight inconvenience for people who dont like to manage a billion different online username/password pairs, sure.
(like me)
tender slate
I miss when game did not have storefront launchers tbh
faint panther
@warm basin well the answer to that I think is that hosting and protecting your own ādataā isnāt really free and takes dedicated staff to keep running; like for pushing updates and storing customer payment information. DRM isnāt free either and making your own would probably be a wasted effort.
I think having multiple āstoresā, or digital distributors is awesome. Especially for content creators and consumers.
last quest
Uhm, @faint panther sorry for the ping, just a quick question, can I add on a little butterfly in my nickname, it's considered as Zalgo, but not one of those bad ones which go over other ppl's messages, and ofc it'd be next to my username. Just asking in advance because some servers don't allow specific nicknames such as that. (I can DM the butterfly in question as well if needed)
tender slate
Multiple stores is good. Multiple stores installed on my computer is annoying
faint panther
@last quest hey it s alright ! sure thing , go for it !! as long as it s not one of those āannoying onesā it shouldn t be a problem
last quest
Ty 
haughty axle
i think people are overreacting about the epic games store, but i do not like that i have to opt in to NOT have my credit card details be saved rather than have it be the other way around
i know its just a single click but people might overlook it
oh and i have to opt out of the newsmails instead of having the option to opt in
kinda scummy IMO
tender slate
The scum is usually the stores that re-register you automatically to their news and promotions
haughty axle
ah yeah thats much worse
potent saddle
Wait are people upset about the epic games store?
I thought people were excited for it
velvet void
I think the vocal minority are upset
tender slate
What is there to be excited about it?
potent saddle
A game store that gives way more money to devs
velvet void
Other than they will give a bigger share of the profits
potent saddle
So lots of indie game studios will move over
haughty axle
im personally excited, this might be the competition valve needs to stop being so crappy with steam
potent saddle
Thereās free games every 2 weeks for the next year I think
lunar flicker
yo
potent saddle
And good games hopefully wonāt get buried by shovelware
haughty axle
^^
velvet void
They already lowered their share
haughty axle
lots of upsides to the epic games store
wasnt that just only for the really big sellers?
serene kettle
I heard Steam wasnāt doing so hot anyway so I think itās cool there is a new one
last quest
Speaking of stores, any of you like the current Discord Store?
lunar flicker
I doubt GOG will get lowered, since I'm sure they're gonna rise up a bunch in a few years
It is part of CD Projekt after all
potent saddle
Itās just for big sellers and still not as low as Epicās
tender slate
Discord being a store is just a big no for me
potent saddle
The game service is nice
lunar flicker
I like that they're doing it
potent saddle
Store is pretty meh
last quest
It's a nice feature, but keeping it locked behind the 10$ nitro, dunno
potent saddle
Their selection is pretty lame since half their games are nitro
And nitro games can even get removed from the library
They donāt just give them to you
velvet void
Oof
last quest
Also, I know they're working on implementing a server screensharing/video feature.
haughty axle
ooh the download page for the epic games store is clean as hecc
tender slate
They got some exclusives that released here before anywhere else, except since they released nowhere else, there were no reviews, so I did not want to buy potential garbage
last quest
Idk how well will that work tho, since the current one is also locked on quality between regular Discord users and Nitro users
lunar flicker
I feel bad for Humble Bundle nowadays
they dont really care too much about the actual bundles nowadays, aside from monthly
faint panther
Yup, competition is the lifeblood of consumers. I know people are sick of the āconsole warsā for example, but really itās the only thing keeping them all innovating.
lunar flicker
kinda hard not blaming IGN
velvet void
The main thing with these stores is that a majority of PC users most likely have all if not most of their game collection on steam so if they want to buy from another store the store itself would need to offer a better deal and better services to persuade people to clutter up their desktops with another launcher
I have 3 other launchers on my desktop that I only have because I got a free game from them but other than that I have no reason to buy games from those stores and not steam
lunar flicker
i have too many games on my steam to leave it aside
faint panther
Yeah, and thatās natural. I donāt think Steam will be conquered in a night. But for me, Iāll stick to whatever service I feel is best and move to another one if they have something I canāt pass up. Like Hades EA, hehe. Just speculating, but I bet they gave SGG a better deal than Steam would have.
faint panther
We all do, yeah, itās kind of needless overhead for everyone. But hey, thatās life
lunar flicker
true
apparently uh
apparently they said the cowboy bebop netflix adaptation is gonna have political commentary
faint panther
The worst part is I bet that will be the least of their problems. An angry anime fan is way scarier than an angry political science major xD
Iām holding onto some hope for them. They should just get the whole Firefly cast to do it.
harsh basin
Carnage, I forget the specific breakdown but Steam takes something like 30%, Epic is taking 12% and also refunding the licensing royalties for the engine if you use UE, which can bring Epic's cut down as low as 5% iirc.
Discord is taking a 20% cut, I believe.
warm basin
also epic charges 5% to use their engine on a different storefront
potent saddle
Cowboy bebop Netflix adaptation?
Seriously?
Why not just put the original on Netflix? They have the rights to it if theyāre making an adaptation
faint panther
Wow that is basically a no brainer then!
last quest
They got nge, and now are doing a series live adaptation of cowboy bebop
potent saddle
Iām just worried theyāll ruin it
last quest
Nge is šš»
potent saddle
If they take out the jazz Iāll cry
last quest
True
I mean, even with their own stuff, Altered Carbon was nice, even though as an adaptation it got changed up so much from the book.
I'm waiting on s2 for that.
potent saddle
It could actually be decent, Cowboy Bebop is hard to ruin, Iām just remembering the FMA movie
last quest
We'll see
potent saddle
Where they made all the actors japanese even though the show is set in Germany so the wigs all looked horrible
faint panther
The FMA movie was actually Japanese
harsh basin
I don't know, live action Bebop is an iffy prospect. I haven't really been a fan of any of the live action anime movies.
velvet void
I dont think you're giving Bebop enough credit if you're saying it's hard to ruin lol
harsh basin
(Looking at you, Ghost in the Shell)
potent saddle
On the contrary, I think Bebop is the best anime ever made
quiet stag
Eh. Not on steam? Meh.
potent saddle
Itās so good that if they donāt make it entirely political and take away the jazz and stuff then it couldnāt really be that bad
last quest
I mean even for anime, it's hard to keep it to its original. How many anime adaptations are so different from their manga/light novel originals.
torpid osprey
Rurouni Kenshin is decent
last quest
Most people won't complain about those, and I think in its best sense is that I enjoyed the anime adaptation of Magus Bride. They did that one well (though Chise's facial expressions were more blank in the anime, where as for that part I still prefer the manga)
Just remember, even Japan can mess up their own stuff
velvet void
The we have the manga that think no adaptation can do justice
Like Berserk
Vinland
Vagabond
But Vinland is getting a anime so I'm hoping
faint panther
Is it really more risky for them to just say āHey, weāre bringing on the writer and musician to make a show inspired by Cowboy Bepop.ā Just make it its own thing.
last quest
I mean, usually Japan says no to most gore/horror genre anime adaptations. Which I wish they didn't do. Because I love one niche manga, Franken Fran, yet I know it's never gonna get the adaptation I so want to see.
Are they bringing in the musician?
I just saw the writer is gonna be a ''councelour''
velvet void
Aside from Berserk, Vinland and Vagabond aren't exactly Gore/horror. It's more of the fact the artwork is hard to translate into animation and the the medium of manga being easier to pace stories than anime
last quest
I can definitely agree with the pacing. Some anime adaptations feel too short. Esp. since a lot of shows work on just a 12/24ep format budget.
(It's just personal preference of wanting more of the horror genre to be out, is all.)
faint panther
Nah they havenāt said anything about the music. I hope they do though!
serene kettle
Yāall thereās gonna be a new dragon age š©š©
candid sparrow
dmc5 demo is fun
slate lava
I just donāt think Cowboy Bebop will translate well to live action
Itās so good, I just canāt think of a single way that live action would enhance it
cobalt ivy
yeah, when I think of things that could work well in live action Cowboy Bebop just isn't included
solemn sierra
Also paying for nitro lol
harsh basin
What's wrong with paying for Nitro? Discord is awesome and worth supporting.
rustic orchid
@slate lava agreed, people are already making fun of the witcher
and that was just a costume & makeup test
solemn sierra
A variety of reasons. These social media platforms always seem to end up crashing and burning. Discord is funded by companies like Tencent. I've never liked the monetization of "gamers", there's an almost eerie feeling for me to see gaming "jokes" on the loading screen for a multi-million dollar company funded by venture capitalists.
velvet fjord
remember when netflix said there was going to be a live action The Last Airbender
I'm still prepared to wince at that
rustic orchid
remember when there was a Live Action The Last Airbender MOVIE
solemn sierra
I'm on Discord because people are on Discord, not the other way around.
rustic orchid
A series is one thing but the MOVIE???
velvet fjord
what movie there was never a TLA movie
solemn sierra
It's in 3d
candid sparrow
Nah
rustic orchid
...it was live action with people
candid sparrow
Hard pass
Ive never seen a good live action adaptation and i dont think i ever will
hexed hollow
š± runs far away as fast as possible
rustic orchid
what no I mean I'm saying there WAS a live action movie what was terrible so why would a netflix show be a better idea??
in fact there was a whole controversy around it because they whitewashed the entire cast
well from what I heard I don't care about Avatar. :P
solemn sierra
That seems to be a controversy with a lot of these live action pieces nowadays
rustic orchid
well technically its been around for a while.. like I could make examples but like I guess the oldest one would be like Mickey Rooney playing a Chinese gentleman
solemn sierra
I have not paid much attention to real life movie stuff lately
rustic orchid
thats alright neither have I... -_-;
like my biggest attentions in terms of like releases are DMC5 and now THIS
there may have been 1 more but I need to recollect my thoughts
solemn sierra
I stopped paying attention to DMC5 since that horrid Dante theme and microtransactions
hexed hollow
If the game is good, I don't really care that much
torpid osprey
Dante theme will receive some changes
rustic orchid
it already has
they announced the new vocalist yesterday
Micheal Barr ex-vocalist from a band called Volumes
and again the Microtransactions thing as far as what's been announced ONLY for Red Orbs
hexed hollow
hopefully the micro-transactions get removed
solemn sierra
They're still going with this metalcore stuff?
rustic orchid
and nothing BUT Red Orbs! Its not even anything NEW! It was in DMC4, DMC4:SE & DmC!
hexed hollow
ahh, then it won't hinder my experience
rustic orchid
I KNOW
hexed hollow
cool, I don't really care in that instance
rustic orchid
but people keep freaking out about it!
torpid osprey
i mean, they are not wrong
rustic orchid
as for the music uh... I dunno? Maybe? So far its a wip they say the track will change while they're figuring it out
I mean yeah I don't like em too but then I just don't use em.
hexed hollow
if the game comes out and requires you to buy red orbs or grind stages to continue
then I can understand people freaking out
solemn sierra
Which part of Lock and Load screams a shrill vocalist and bad mixing? Really gotta wonder what they were going for.
hexed hollow
but we don't know if this is the case, so freaking the heck out won't achieve anything
rustic orchid
Yeah no Itsuno & Walker have gone on record several times saying the orbs are only to speed up farming
And this was during NYC-Comic Con when they debuted Faust Hat
so people are just literally freaking over nothing. Like there's pre-order DLC stuff but what other game doesn't have that at this point?
solemn sierra
I'll wait, I'm just not "hype" and definitely not buying this day one
rustic orchid
fair enough but its like I'm seeing people saying NOOOOO THIS WILL BE TRASH F** CAPCOM SALT N BURN*
solemn sierra
And like every capcom game
this game will perform "under expectations"
same with resident evil 2 remake
If it doesn't sell an insane amount of copies, it's under expectations
rustic orchid
Pretty much, but at least for me, this isn't the DmC craziness we say ages ago nor is the the busted janky completely broken Umbrella Corps stuff we saw as well.
like at WORST they'll be fun games
instead of at WORST they're broken & unbalanced
which was more like... what ended up happening.. -_-;
torpid osprey
btw, if you have a Xbox One, DMCV demo is available
rustic orchid
yeah I saw... I'm a PS4 user
torpid osprey
you're lucky
rustic orchid
?
torpid osprey
PC will never receive a demo
solemn sierra
I guess so, not super hyped about RE2. But we'll see
rustic orchid
I mean neither am I for RE2 but it does look & I think it'll play nice.
I mean RE games have never scared me, especially the OG which were far too campy
torpid osprey
eventually there will be a PS4 demo
rustic orchid
I hope so, but yeah back on topic like if people are going to make complaints or concerns its like this whole xbone partnership which screwed up DMC4 back in the day
solemn sierra
But I don't know what I was expecting, Mr.X was always just a big dude in a trenchcoat walking towards you
rustic orchid
that is true as well
like I didn't play RE2 after finishing it or replayed it as much as RE1 or RE3 but he's always been just a dude in a long coat
like tbh the monsters in RE3 were always better to me since you had stuff like the Hunters who were more dangerous than like the lickers
or Tyrant who was crazy strong
solemn sierra
He also just seems to walk around, even in the main hall. The whole point of Mr.X is that he's the kool-aid man who shows up when you backtrack
rustic orchid
That might be because of the linearity the game seems to be taking
solemn sierra
RE2 was pretty linear
rustic orchid
I mean I hate to say it but this is gonna probably be more like the modern REs level wise
solemn sierra
Most of the time you search for key items, and the key item will open up say, 1-2 doors tops
In Resident Evil 1, one of the keys opens up 7 doors
rustic orchid
Was it? I'll have to double check cause its been a while. I could never navigate myself in OG RE games, or generally really I get lost standing still.
solemn sierra
Yea, RE2 is pretty damn linear, but it offers the option of playing the campaign 4 times with slight chances, either Leon A -> Claire B, or Claire A -> Leon B
rustic orchid
yeah that much I remember
solemn sierra
REmake is a lot less scary/interesting when you know where you're supposed to go exactly. The game sets up changes in some areas if you backtrack through them, for instance, one of the corridors in the north east side, the zombie in the bathroom can barge through the door, and zombies can get through the windows later on.
REmake is kind of like a puzzle box. I think that's why the combat is so awkward. Since you have to backtrack a lot and have limited resources, you have to decide how you want to handle certain backtracks, whether you kill the enemies or try to dodge them at the risk of losing health.
rigid mortar
@pastel phoenix you are still a welcoming hero. 
solemn sierra
I think what appeals to me in games like REmake is the limitations you have. I guess if I were to take a more recent example, it would be like the early game of Prey, you have very few resources and have to deal with enemies stronger than what your arsenal can handle, so you have to go at it more creatively.
Problem is, Prey just kind of breaks apart by the midgame, as if you're careful/crafty enough, you can break the game pretty hard
rustic orchid
yeah I can see that
iron kraken
https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/a43dxi/the_epic_games_store_does_not_seem_to_comply_with/ :S
I don't like having multiple launchers to begin with and now this happens.
solemn sierra
Isn't europe the place where they cannot post memes?
surreal brook
i will post sad memes in english prison
faint panther
:(
opaque patio
alright gang
what was i going to say
oh yeah
people keep telling me shovel knight is great
can anyone tell me why
idle condor
they just really dig it
mossy wraith
it's a really good retro platformer
opaque patio
so is celeste
mossy wraith
the story is good and very funny
opaque patio
why should i play shovel knight instead of celeste
mossy wraith
you shouldn't, you should play both
opaque patio
i have already played celeste.
but like
is there anything shovel knight is really good at
mossy wraith
they're very different games
opaque patio
i know, i know
mossy wraith
celeste is entirely parkour, whereas shovel knight is combat-centric
it doesn't bring many new mechanics to the table, it just does what it does really well
great level design, funny story, etc
opaque patio
level design you say
mossy wraith
and the whole thing is challenging but in a satisfying way, without being too frustrating
opaque patio
h m m
mossy wraith
kinda like celeste actually
spice pivot
it did when it came out
@hexed hollow don't get me wrong though, i'm a fanboi lol
anything other than nintendo titles i've like already played so ye
hexed hollow
ofc it was š
much like how the ps4/xbone and pretty much every console in existence was stupidly expensive at launch
spice pivot
yeah but like, XB1S/PS4Pro are really well priced atm
especially if they can do native 4k (upscaled)
while a pc of similar cost is like what? 1000USD?
hexed hollow
atm, heck yeah, I can definitely agree that they're at a good price point
except in australia, because australia tax
spice pivot
aussies get rekt regardless
hexed hollow
tis very true š
hexed hollow
night mate 
chrome olive
Gooood mornin', folks. Hope everyone's saturday is not terrible. ā¤
chrome ibex
delicate light
Hey, just saw that post that Ilnostro linked about the epic game store not complying with the GDPR. As an european player, I'm worried since I was planning on buying Hades and I don't know if this would be a problem. This reminds me too much of iRO, the official international server for Ragnarok Online that banned all european accounts rather than making the necessary changes to comply with GDPR and a lot of people lost a lot of money and years of gameplay progress without previous warning.
If anyone from Supergiant could say something about it I would be grateful, I suppose offtopic isn't the best place to ask but that's where that conversation was in and I don't know which channel the mods deem more suitable for this kind of question.
meager moon
frigging hell you have a dadjoke bot here, that's like the best decision ever
rustic orchid
There should be a dad joke bot but its HADES making the jokes
the REAL reason Zagreus wants to bail out of hell
mossy wraith
"no, no, I don't make dad jokes -- I make dead jokes"
left spruce
Hey. Regarding Hades being on "Epic Games Store": It's really hard to justify installing a new game launcher, which will only be for one game. I myself will make an exception, but I know that many others won't. I know of people that won't.
While the official launch will not be restricted to one launcher, I think that it's something that will be detrimental. If we could get it eventually linked to Steam, or maybe do so at a significant discount, I'm sure it'll sweeten the deal for many people.
prisma slate
sgg wants to market to the fortnite gamers
dusky cairn
I like their store tbh, even though the prices in rubles are pretty high
I mean, we're getting Journey on PC! Also I heard that is works better with sending players' data? And devs get bigger cut from sales.
left spruce
I think that their fans will be mostly at Steam, no?
@dusky cairn Really? Journey? That's good news.
prisma slate
eh, iām all for devs moving away from steam
dusky cairn
yeah, exclusive to Epic store too, it's on the main page
prisma slate
itās convenient and all but mostly because itās made itself the only option for pc digital games
left spruce
I don't have much love for Steam. I just don't like spreading my games all over the place.
There's GOG.
prisma slate
canāt steam detect other games on ur pc and add them to ur library? i thought that was a thing but iāve never used it
dusky cairn
I dunno, I like Steam too, I don't want devs to get out of there but it seems almost inevitable at this point.
At least Epic store is not Uplay š¤·
left spruce
Regardless, It's not just me. I can live with this. I think that if they could make it possible to somehow link, they would get more people.
Uplay is a disaster.
I really dislike using it, and I just don't buy Ubisoft games anymore. The problem is, that I already have Anno 2070, World in Conflict, AC IV which was for free. I'm stuck with it now.
brittle jetty
left spruce
I'll look it up a second.
prisma slate
they said theyāll bring it to different platforms after the full release iirc
but theyāre keeping it on epic for early access
left spruce
"If youād prefer to wait until the game is 100% complete, we expect Hades will eventually be available on a variety of platforms, once Early Access is complete."
In the FAQ, for the question about why early access.
tardy anchor
@cursive orchid AHHH THOSE BOOKS
i followed them so closely back in the day!!!!
scatty was so cool :')))
cursive orchid
@tardy anchor scatty the red head of my dreams lol
did you ever finish them? all six books
tardy anchor
Yes!!
cursive orchid
what you think of the ending, will try not to spoil it for the rest
tardy anchor
dont remember the end too clearly :'(((
cursive orchid
but idk to me that was the best twist ever
tardy anchor
....time for a reread
cursive orchid
well remember hook boi
try to sum it up in a way as to not give it away to others
but swords, hook boi, he-man "i have the POWER", ohsnapdidnotseethatcoming
tardy anchor
hfhjfjfjfjfh
cursive orchid
did that help lol
limber horizon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEmM6vVFrao @hasty kernel to confirm, this is the "dubstep" you are referring to?
not artists like skrillex?
hasty kernel
The part thats not sampled flute, yes
limber horizon
okay then
at least if you're not misinformed, i guess
what are your opinions on virtual self?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7QeR0VxnlA
@hasty kernel
hasty kernel
Seems alright?
dusky cairn
Bringing back old trance FeelsGoodMan
limber horizon
this song has an absurd climax
@hasty kernel if anything can sell you on virtual self, this song will
hasty kernel
Not my thing
hasty kernel
I prefer more melodic aggressive base stuff, like Aggrotech
tropic garden
all of us now that hades is out
opaque quail
It's perfect. š
velvet hawk
with Hades out I've decided I want to be able to play pc games again without being put off by abysmal framerates, but I hate computer shopping. Laptops never have trackpad buttons anymore and it weirds me out
cerulean cloak
pandora's labyrinth lmao
chrome olive
So I just read that Journey is coming to PC. I look for it on Steam. Huh, not there. Must not have added it yet. Then I perform a web search. Exclusive to the EPIC GAMES STORE wfalsdfadfgh
So Hades AND Journey. It's becoming more difficult to ignore it by the day.
Meanwhile valve doing a wonderful job turning steam into newgrounds.
sharp grail
yep epic games are being pretty convincing with their free games and exclusives
I do agree that competition is healthy even if I like having all my games in one place, maybe valve will pay developers more this way
but what do you mean about turning steam into newgrounds?
leaden steppe
it'd be nice if steam dropped drm
chrome olive
Steam doesn't have any DRM.
Not unless the publisher wants some on their game.
And re: the newgrounds comment, Steam feels liek it's totally choked with zero-quality junkware these days.
hasty kernel
Steam has DRM
hasty kernel
The inherent Steam DRM?
chrome olive
What inherent Steam DRM?
hasty kernel
You cant launch games without the steam launcher, you cant have the same game running on 2 PCs at the same time, you have to authenticate to launch a game,
And if you were to lose your Steam account
One way or another
Any Steam game you have installed is lost as well
chrome olive
So? All of that is perfectly normal and doesn't constitute some kind of insane anti-consumer policy.
Why would you ever be in a situation where you would want to run the same game on 2 PCs at the same time?
hasty kernel
Its normal but its not good
chrome olive
For whom isn't it good?
hasty kernel
To let a friend/fiancee/sibling play the game as well?
chrome olive
So move your butt out of your chair and let them play it.
hasty kernel
Or, I could let them play it and play myself
chrome olive
So buy them their own licence.
hasty kernel
Why? If I got a boxed copy, I wouldnt have to do that
Thats the problem with DRM, after all
chrome olive
Boxed copies require you to have the disc in the drive to play, do they not?
hasty kernel
No?
chrome olive
or they used to anyway
chrome olive
I haven't bought a boxed game in years because it's pointless.
hasty kernel
And when I mean years I mean decades
potent saddle
Yeah steam has built in drm
hasty kernel
You didnt need to do that for WC3
Which was like, what, 18 years ago at this point?
potent saddle
It helps beat piracy but itās bad for anyone who loses their account or something
chrome olive
I suppose technically what you're describing can be construed as "digital rights management" in the same way that old copy protection is
hasty kernel
Or for people who want to share the game with others, or for people who want to play offline regularly
chrome olive
It's rudimentary protection against software thieves and doesn't impact your experience in any way.
potent saddle
Steam literally manages digital rights
chrome olive
As opposed to actually harmful DRM malware like securom
potent saddle
I play offline all the time Iāve never had an issue with it
Yeah itās not bad DRM but it exists
chrome olive
I think the brainwashing here is that companies that reinvented themselves as anti-DRM crusaders on the back of the very legitimate outrage against malware DRM have trained an entire generation of gamers to conflate any copy protection with anti-consumer malware.
hasty kernel
I mean it is still anti-consumer compared to what boxed copies do
chrome olive
You shouldn't be able to share a game licence with others anyway. That's perfectly normal practice. I wouldn't want you to go around sharing your setup.exe with 50 of your friends and letting you all play at the same time on one software purchase.
hasty kernel
Being less anti-consumer doesnt mean it isnt anti-consumer
And no, it isnt perfectly normal practice, its the reason DRM was invented
chrome olive
Magnify that by hundreds or thousands of users via uploading your cd-key and setup.exe online and I'm throwing money away by not protecting my product.
It's not anti consumer at all
it's anti theft.
Thieves aren't consumers.
hasty kernel
Yes, thats how DRM is described
Thats literally the entire, and sole purpose of DRM
chrome olive
There's anti-theft, and there's anti consumer. Malignant DRM like denuvo or securom are both anti-consumer more than they are anti-theft.
The protections Steam uses aren't malignant in the least, and don't merit being lumped in together with the likes of denuvo and others.
hasty kernel
What exactly does Denuvo do differently?
chrome olive
I'll answer for securom since I"m more familiar with that one, but for one it tended to fry your hardware. I've lost two or three optical drives from Fallout 3's securom malware burning them out.
Denuvo, from what I' understand, has extremely aggressive anti-tamper systems that force you to reauntheticate any time you change hardware.
with a limited number of authentications. AFter which, as far as I"m aware, you're locked out of your licence.
Which is insane
hasty kernel
Oh so like Steam
chrome olive
that's 100% anti-consumer
hasty kernel
You just described Steam
chrome olive
Steam burns your hardware out and blocks you from playing your games if you change your video card?
That's ludicrous.
hasty kernel
Denuvo doesnt do the first one, but the second one, I think so?
At least I had to reauthenticate when I swapped in a new GTX
chrome olive
I've changed four or five systems since I started using steam and I've had ZERO issues.
hasty kernel
Though even then
Thats a pretty insignificant difference
The main problem people had with Denuvo
chrome olive
That is not insigifnicant
hasty kernel
Is that if you want to install on a new PC, you need to authenticate again
And you can only run one at the same time
chrome olive
that's the entire diference between confounding thieves vs. obstructing consumers from using their product.
Steam does not obstruct legitimate users from using their software, malignant drm like denuvo do.
hasty kernel
It does
chrome olive
Running one at a time is 100% reasonable. Otherwise it's a slippery slope. You PAID for one licence.
You could just as easily get your family member to play a second copy as you could share your cd key and setup.exe online and let thousands play it.
potent saddle
You canāt run a physical copy of a game on 2 consoles at once
potent saddle
Why should you be able to play a digital copy on 2 pcs at once
hasty kernel
Weve had 3 copies of WC3 running at the same time
Specifically, to play against each other
Same game
chrome olive
Because you paid for one copy of the game.
potent saddle
But your intent was not to share the game just to play against your friends
People online would exploit that and theyād lose thousands of sales
chrome olive
So tell them to buy their own copies.
hasty kernel
Thats the same argument as pirating
Funny thing is, people did research, and there just isnt a lot of evidence to back that theory up
chrome olive
What theory is that?
potent saddle
piracy is bad unless itās like an EA game or something cause they donāt deserve the money
hasty kernel
That piracy affects sales
chrome olive
Agreed!
hasty kernel
The EU made a study on it a couple years back
The result was that, basically, it doesnt
potent saddle
Pirating indie games and stuff that devs our love and time into is scummy
chrome olive
Absolutely is.
potent saddle
Yeah it doesnāt affect sales for big games
hasty kernel
Actually, no, its the opposite
With the exception of recently released, big products
It doesnt really affect them
So it would affect, say, idk
The God of War game when it came out
If it were on PC anyway
chrome olive
Sorry, I was responding to JustAddvVoid with "agreed" and "absolutely is"
should've made that clear
That's probably why it isn't on PC
potent saddle
A big company doesnāt care if they lose 1000 sales but a small game could be crippled by that. Of course thereās the piracy community that just pirates the game like a demo of sorts and always buys it afterwards if they like it but there are arguments against even those people.
chrome olive
I mean it does make sense, that thieves weren't ever going to buy the product anyway.
hasty kernel
The point is that the small company doesnt seem to lose a noticable amount of sales at all
potent saddle
How do we know this
chrome olive
However, what Steam's protections do is deter casual piracy. And the sales offer incentives to legitimately buy everyone who wants to play a game their own copy.
potent saddle
All Iām saying is that pirating a game that people put love into is bad
hasty kernel
An EU study commissioned in 2013, finished and never released in 2017
chrome olive
By casual piracy I mean you sharing the game with your friends and family, maybe 5-10 people.
hasty kernel
Also, to think why that logic doesnt work
You can share a movie
In fact, thats what movie nights do
You can share music
You can even share books
Why shouldnt you be able to share a game?
potent saddle
You can, with people sitting near you on the same pc
chrome olive
Can you legally make copies of that movie and share the copies to your friends?
Exactly. Move your butt out of your chair and let them play your copy.
Can you legally photocopy a copyrighted book and give it out? I think not.
That's literally what copyright is. You do not have the right to copy and share something.
hasty kernel
Thats not the same
potent saddle
Itās exactly the same
chrome olive
It is. Movie night is 20+ people watching one copy of a movie.
hasty kernel
Thats like saying "you can share a movie by letting them listen in on the telephone"
chrome olive
IT's not you ripping 20 dvds of a movie and mailing it to 20 people.
hasty kernel
They are clearly missing a huge part of the experience
potent saddle
Yeah thatās why they just watch it at your house or buy it for themselves
chrome olive
Streaming
Though that's not quite the same, as you suggested with your telephone analogy.
Again, you can share your copy of a game or book or movie just fine. You just ca't make additional copies to give out.
Which is what letting you play one licence of a game on 2 systems simultaneously would be.
hasty kernel
On a sidenote
If it werent for DRM
Copying DVDs and MP3s and what not would actually be entirely legal
For ones that dont have DRM, it is
chrome olive
I think you're putting them in reverse. DRM exists because its illegal to copy these things, not the other way around.
hasty kernel
No, it is exactly that way around
DRM exists because its legal to copy these things otherwise
chrome olive
That makes no sense.
hasty kernel
Its a way to prevent people from legally copying them
potent saddle
Thatās why downloading Doom from the Pirate Bay is illegal
hasty kernel
But also easily circumventable
potent saddle
Because someone uploaded their game to it
hasty kernel
You can temporarily transfer ownership of your DvD to them
Then, as the legal owner, they are allowed to create a backup copy of the DvD
Then they can transfer ownership back to you
hasty kernel
You can legally copy it for personal use
potent saddle
Not exactly a credible source but it also isnāt an essay on cell mitosis so it should be fine
hasty kernel
Its unfortunately wrong
chrome olive
I wouldn't describe "sharing with other people" as "personal" use.
hasty kernel
Well youre not doing that
chrome olive
As your own personal backup intended to be used by YOU, yes.
hasty kernel
They own the DVD for a moment of time
They, as the legal owner, create a backup copy
Then, they give back ownership to you
potent saddle
chrome olive
That's sketchy at best.
It'd be perfectly obvious to anyone examining the situation that you're explicitly trying to use legal acrobatics to evade copyright law.
so technically it might not be in violation, but in the spirit of what you're doing, it absolutely is.
velvet fjord
hold on are we really trying to argue that pirating indie games is ok in here
hasty kernel
No, only that DRM is inherently anti-consumer
And that its creation was not to combat piracy, but to combat the practice of legal copying
chrome olive
Okay, do you remember those old copy protection methods like code wheels and asking you to refer to pages in the manual?
hasty kernel
Yes, I do remember them
chrome olive
An early form of DRM. Or at any rate, DRM is a modern form of copy protection.
Are those anti consumer?
Inherently
hasty kernel
Those didnt prevent legal copying at all
If you wanted to make a copy, as the owner, you had the manual
You could do that
The only reason it would be anti-consumer is that, if you lose the manual, youre screwed
chrome olive
Likely not, no. But they did inconvenince it to ag reat extent before the advent of ubiquitous scanners and pdf sharing and the interwebs.
That sounds more like a You Problem than a copy protection is anti-consumer problem. You could say the same thing about losing the game disc.
If you lost the game disc without making a copy, you couldnt use your game.
Well, that's your fault, isnt it?
potent saddle
Itās not the companyās fault if you lose your copy of Spiderman
chrome olive
I once ran over my C&C Red Alert CD with my computer chair, scratching it to heck and rendering it useless. I had to buy another copy.
That was 1000% my fault.
hasty kernel
Sure, but the added layer is a problem
Anyway, the thing with DRM is that it doesnt prevent pirating
chrome olive
You could say the same thing about losing your Steam account today. Under what circumstanes did you lose it? It depends much on what precautions you took to seecure your account.
hasty kernel
Everyone knows it doesnt
Its not supposed to
Its sole purpose was to make copying illegal
chrome olive
How can you argue with "everyone knows"
potent saddle
copying is illegal
More sources have been presented for the argument that it is illegal than the argument that it isn't
hasty kernel
Well, if you want to go by examples, Just Cause 4 has DRM and was released, what, yesterday?
potent saddle
and you can't cite facts without a source in a debate
hasty kernel
Its already been cracked and is possible ot pirate
chrome olive
It might not HARD stop it, but it does make it damned inconvenient to pirate any Steam game. And with the incentives to buy on steam, like sales, achievements, etc. and other carrots, the inconvenience is outweighed by the attraction of buying it legally.
Whereas malignant malware DRM actually punishes you for buying legal copies in various ways, incentivizing pirating in a perverse self-defeating judo move.
An own goal if you will.
That's why i make the distinction between malignant malware DRM and perfectly benign DRM like Steam's client. And why I challenge everyone, or try to, who lumps them together without nuance in statements like DRM = EVIL
hasty kernel
To answer ot the sources
One is not credible, the second one actually says what I said
That ripping a DVD is only illegal because of DRM
I assume you read your own second source?
potent saddle
the second one says that you can't legally pirate copy protected disks yes
it's illegal
hasty kernel
Because DRM was invented to make it illegal
potent saddle
if they have the copyright then they can decide how they want it distributed
chrome olive
Again I'd strongly argue you have it the wrong way around. Copy protection was created because copying is illegal, not copying is illegal because copy protection was invented.
hasty kernel
This subject actually gets a lot easier once we go to the EU
potent saddle
and they decided against piracy because money being exchanged for goods and services is the backbone of a healthy economy
hasty kernel
Because its even legal to break DRM in several EU nations
chrome olive
Which ones?
hasty kernel
As they recognize that the only reason for DRMs creation was to try and prevent legal copying
Netherlands and Spain definitely
A few others, Im not sure of
The UK had it legal until 2015
Canada also has it legal, but cracking DRM is illegal, so it effectively doesnt work out
chrome olive
Well, to return to the original point, Steam gets around that neatly. You can make all the copies you want. You just can't run two at the same time.
Which you shouldn't ever need to do. Ever.
hasty kernel
Also Australia and New Zealand
Ok, looking up the legal situation in my home nation
In germany, its actually legal, and even exactly for the use case I mentioned earlier
You can create up to 7 copies for a close personal circle
Generally speaking, this includes family, significant others and close friends
Dont ask me why 7
I have no idea
chrome olive
Occult significance.
hasty kernel
Germany isnt usually very superstitious though
chrome olive
I kid
hasty kernel
Its also legal in Austra and Switzerland, with Switzerland basically having the same law as germany, but without the limit of 7
So yeah, its legal in a lot of nations, and in a few of the ones it isnt, its only illegal because of DRM
chrome olive
If the practice isn't illegal to begin with, there are no rights to manage.
That's like saying me putting a lock on my bicycle makes it illegal to steal it. Damn those anti-consumer locks.
getting in the way of free bicycles.
hasty kernel
Oh its "digital rights management" as in the endusers rights to the usage
Youre basically restricting what the user can do
chrome olive
Ah I read it as the seller's rights. But user's rights does make more sense.
hasty kernel
A better analogy would be putting a gate before your public library with an entrance fee
chrome olive
The difference being that the product isn't a free public service.
hasty kernel
Well, yes, the point is that youre making something that was legal illegal
chrome olive
If I buy a copy of Transistor, that copy isn't bing given out for free with Valve charging some obnoxious entrance fee.
hasty kernel
There is no perfect analogy
chrome olive
I suppose not.
hasty kernel
But yeah, thats the long and short of why DRM is bad, and why its actually been created to make legal things illegal
I mean, I get why they dont want it to be legal
Because, digital copies are plain easier than physical copies
hybrid wasp
Also, isn't that just what laws do? Make previously legal things illegal for whatever reason? That's sort of the point no?
hybrid wasp
Copyright law isn't a law?
hasty kernel
They are effectively circumventing the law by making the legal act impossible to do legally
Copyright law in most nations actually makes it entirely legal
hybrid wasp
B-b-because they made it illegal? Because the creator's rights are being protected over the consumer's?
hasty kernel
Even in the US its not exactly clear
hybrid wasp
So? Do you live in those nations? Are those nations' laws inherently suprior for some reason?
hasty kernel
As Fair use could be reasonably interpreted to allow for a legal copy, and there has not been a court case proving or disproving it
Its essentially in legal limbo
And yes, I happen to live in one of those nations
hybrid wasp
Good for you.
Steam doesn't, nor does a large amount of Steam's customers.
If you wish steam would change their policy on a country-by-country basis, try to give them a reason to.
hasty kernel
Technically Steam would have to comply with EU laws
And since there is no nation mandating DRM
They could just drop it
Like the Epic Games Store did
And GoG I think?
chrome olive
Well, why would you operateina country that doesnt protect your product from theft?
delicate light
I've been reading a bit, if copying and distributing was legal as you propose, we wouldn't have half the game industry we have now, especially indie studio like SGG, because it wouldn't be sustainable for them.
hasty kernel
Because the incredibly large market you lose isnt worth the incredibly small amount of sales you might lose
chrome olive
Sorry, Germans, [game] isn't available in your country anymore because they decided to make copy protection illegal. Write to your local government if you want it back.
hasty kernel
Remember GDPR?
chrome olive
Doesn't ring a bell...
hasty kernel
Yeah, Google Facebook and other big companies with a large EU market had to comply with it
Even if it meant reducing profits
chrome olive
Oh that
hasty kernel
And no, it wouldnt, Koishia, as a study has found
Pirating already exists and is as easy as it always was
hybrid wasp
A study, citations source, replication, please.
hasty kernel
It turns out, it just has an incredibly insignificant effect
chrome olive
Well, it's a cost/benefit calculation I guess. If you ecide it's not worth to operate in Germany, or wherever, just make the game unavailable to buy or play from there.
delicate light
I don't trust studies based on suppositions of things that happened in an alternate universe
hasty kernel
Good luck with reading it though
Its an EU study
Theyre very accurate and effective, but a pain to read
hybrid wasp
Oof. Yeah I'll have to give it a read through at some point.
hasty kernel
Its not the only study that found that, it is however the only one that specifically included video games to my knowledge
chrome olive
Again I think you're talking about aggressively anti-consumer DRM, not the kind that Steam uses.
hasty kernel
No, this is about any kind of DRM at all actually
chrome olive
They're not the same.
delicate light
I don't think we really know what would happen unless we got a time machine, changed the past, and see if indie studios still exist
hasty kernel
The point is that the benefit doesnt seem to exist, while the cost does
chrome olive
Again, you're conflating ALL copy protection together.
hybrid wasp
Indeed, we can't really conduct an objective experimental study of such things, but I'll drop the "piracy harm" argument for the moment.
hasty kernel
Bomoo, the point is that piracy, which is what we would have if DRM didnt exist at all (or rather, what we have right now since DRM doesnt stop it at all), doesnt actually affect sales
chrome olive
If I may use my own game purchasing experience as a example, prior to using Steam, I confess I used to pirate extensively. Until I installed Steam and it became significantly more convenient to buy discounted legal copies digitally than it would be to deal with pirated ones.
hasty kernel
Specifically because the only way it could is if the number of people who A, pirated the game, B, wouldve bought the game otherwise and C, didnt end up buying the game is just small
chrome olive
It does. Casual piracy does. If it's EASIER to pirate than it is to buy, it would significnatly affect sales. That's literally why I used to pirate games in my misspent youth.
hasty kernel
And also happens to be about the same as all of the above, except without C
hybrid wasp
I'm still standing on Bomoo's end of this, lumping all DRM as anti consumer practice is (imperfectly) akin to complaining that because I am not alloved to do all that is possible with a tool, my rights are somehow infringed.
chrome olive
The key is to make buying games more convenient and more attractive without any undesirable side-effects like burnt out hardware or unreasonable authentication limits.
chrome olive
gog requires you to log in to download your games
I could construe that as DRM if I was being a snarky ass.
hybrid wasp
Yeah, GoG also operates in a particularly interesting niche which has bred a very loyal and supportive customerbase that keeps them going.
chrome olive
You can' just stroll into their website and download anything you want, paying anonymously on the honor system.
delicate light
That used to be humble bundle, nowadays you also need an account for that
hasty kernel
You cant buy things from a store without going to the store
Once youve got it downloaded, its yours to use though
chrome olive
I think gog is very cunning in how it promotes itself. Whether it's actually DRM-free, well, that's up for debate.
hasty kernel
It is
chrome olive
Depends what you mean by "DRM-free" which is a fuzzy concept at best, as we've discovered over the past little while.
hasty kernel
Once you own a copy of the game
You can do anything with it that you want
Unless the game itself has DRM thats seperate from GoG
hybrid wasp
Going by how many piracy sites tag their .exe's as "GoG version", it sure looks like they're DRM free.
chrome olive
And if I buy certain games from Steam, I can likewise do anything I want with them. Many have an executable that doesn't plug itno the client. Like Darkest Dungeon and KErbal Space PRogram.
Someone still has to have bought that one copy that's gotten shared on pirate sites.
hybrid wasp
I mean, technically, if you own a knife, you can do anything with it that you want. Within the bounds of your local laws.
But imprefect analogies aside-
delicate light
So if I own a game I can take screenshots of the artwork and sell merchandising about it?
It's my game and it's my screenshots
chrome olive
And they had to have done that by logging in and divulging their payment information.
hasty kernel
That actually breaks a law
And there are steam games that circumvent Steams DRM?
Thats news to me
chrome olive
There's plenty
chrome olive
There's no "circumventing", they just dont use the client
You dont get any achievements or updates ora nything, though.
hybrid wasp
It's almost like once you go outside the steam protections, you also go outside their benefits. Interesting.
chrome olive
It's an alternate executable in the install directory for some games. I know of two with certainty, but there's likely others.
hasty kernel
Well, that is effectively circumventing it
delicate light
Well, I'm pretty sure there's laws preventing you from copying and distributing, as well as there's laws against public screenings of a movie
Even if you own the movie
hybrid wasp
Just because laws are essentially impossible to enforce, they don't cease to exist.
hasty kernel
Depending on the nations, but generally
No, there arent
Well, the "distributing" part can be a problem
If you give it to friends, legal in a lot of nations
If you distribute it to the public, its not
hybrid wasp
And where does something cease to be friendly sharing and begin to be distribusion.
hasty kernel
Public screenings are legal pretty much everywhere Im aware of though
delicate light
Emphasis of giving, which means you stop owning that game in favor of a friend
velvet void
i mean arent those two the same tho?
delicate light
You both shouldn't have the game at the same time
delicate light
You don't want me to go of the "things" that are legal in some countries
hasty kernel
Were talking about nations like germany and the netherlands
delicate light
I don't want to give examples because this would be poisoning the well
chrome olive
I suppose you could argue that streaming or broadcasting video of you playing a game is akin to a public screening.
hasty kernel
Also Switzerland and Austria, Spain, and for some time, the UK
velvet void
Same with Koishia, if i let my friend borrow my car then i cant use my car while they have it
velvet void
alright so here we are
hybrid wasp
Copies are not "giving" a thing away. It's distributing aditional pieces of wares, however you would put that.
chrome olive
It's literally making a copy, duplicating something you own and giving someone esle the use of it while you also have the use of it.
hasty kernel
I mean, there is nothing preventing you from writing down a copy of a short story or a book
That is also entirely legal
Its difficult
chrome olive
Not if the book is under copyright it's not.
hasty kernel
But laws dont usually concern themselves with whats difficult
hybrid wasp
Making it in handwriting does not chang ethe creator's right to copy protection.
delicate light
It being handwritten is not different from copying it with a scanner
hasty kernel
Well, it actually kinda is in some nations
hybrid wasp
So petition for those nations laws to be the global standard then.
tardy anchor
albin sorry for the deletion it was a very unfortunate typo
hasty kernel
For some reason
hybrid wasp
Oops, what did I typo?
hasty kernel
Germany actually explicitely outlaws photocopies of a book
Manual writing and scanning however appear to be legal
hybrid wasp
So that's why two messages got eaten.
tardy anchor
i believe you meant "count"?
hybrid wasp
Ooooops
velvet void
oof
delicate light
lul
hasty kernel
More accurately
hybrid wasp
Also, that sounds like a loophole, not a feature.
hasty kernel
Manual typing is also legal
No, its actually a feature
I dont entirely get it either
hybrid wasp
Well, how nice for germans.
velvet void
"It's a feature." -Todd Howard
hasty kernel
It also only applies if the book hasnt been out of print for a while
That part at least makes sense
delicate light
Let's handwrite game code on punch cards, maybe that would make it legal š
hasty kernel
Oh creating a copy is already entirely legal in Germany
Up to 7, to give to friends and family
chrome olive
Monks copying books out by hand = PIRACY
hybrid wasp
Oh, so there are restrictions on it? š¤
hybrid wasp
Sounds anti-consumer to me, I have more than 7 friends.
hasty kernel
Switzerland doesnt have it
velvet void
Do you have to let the law know youre making the copies and giving it to what friends and family
hybrid wasp
(Sorry, that was a cheap jab.)
hasty kernel
Not that Im aware of?
velvet void
is it immediate family
hasty kernel
I think, to put it bluntly, the german admnistrative doesnt care enough to follow up on it
velvet void
ah ok
delicate light
Switzerland is also a financial paradise and errr....
chrome olive
I mean, my common sense would say: "let them try your copy. If they like it, buy them their own copy next time it's discounted."
delicate light
There's many things wrong with what that allows others to do
hasty kernel
Not really
The big worry is piracy
Piracy is still illegal
The act of creating copies however isnt
delicate light
What would you use the copies for then?
hybrid wasp
Yeah but when does what you do with the copies become piracy? This is the entire crux of the bleedin' argumen.
hasty kernel
Personal use and for friends and family?
velvet void
and how is that enforced
delicate light
I have 10 thousand friends on facebook, that wouldn't be piracy then?
hybrid wasp
So it's the "countermeasures don't stop the issue, so let's not try" argument.
hybrid wasp
Except that's a value judgement which we just seem to fundamentally disagree on.
(Harm and Good being ultimately subjective terms)
hasty kernel
I mean studies show that it basically doesnt do any good
hybrid wasp
For the definitions of Good used in the studies.