#Toxicity and bullying in #gameplay-help

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

misty lotus
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I have noticed this happening a few times, and I am always baffled why it is allowed. Some new member or someone deemed unfit to give advice shares an opinion that goes against the grain, and people start making fun of them and dogpiling them for giving "wrong advice." Bonus points if they are not fluent in English because elitism about language makes it more fun.

This happened yesterday. It starts here #gameplay-help message. The guy gives a simple opinion based on his preference for PR1 ships (frankly an unimportant part of the game, and picking any of the ships to develop is whatever anyway).

It then gets latched onto and someone else disagrees. But that is not enough. They have to go the extra mile to "prove" the other guy wrong and insult and bully them in the process.

For comparison here is me giving 2 opinions (one where I recommend ibuki in pr1 #gameplay-help message, and one where I recommend zwei in perma pity potentially #gameplay-help message. Both of which would have been targeted by some "regular" if some newbie or outsider had dared to give them.

Then more people join in and the typical gameplay-help dog-pile happens with the insult added here and there. All because the guy dared to have his own opinion even though it broke no channel rule. The unforgivable sin was not giving "optimal advice."

Giving optimal advice has never been part of the channel rules afaik. Rule 5 specifically states elitism is not allowed and recommendations are negotiable. If you want "newbies" and "outsiders" to not give opinions and advice, make a specific helper role. Call it the Elite Council of Pricks or something equally fitting to how the people in that channel behave.

Frankly, it is getting embarrassing to be part of this community.

You guys should do better

jovial monolith
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Wtf? This is just cursed, I feel sorry for the poor guy. Glad I am not using that channel anymore

restive ridge
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So basically giving advice that doesn't match what the majority believe gets you bullied?

valid geode
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It is not allowed, i have discuss this with ender yesterday saying what ghost and i forgot some other people that doing it is wrong, also "
Giving optimal advice has never been part of the channel rules afaik" yes it's never been part of the channel and yes it doesn't break any rule, but it is recommended for people to lean toward better recommendation, i have read the conversation yesterday and said person "opinion" also have parts that actually make someone run worse, which is discourage even if it doesn't break any rule. Hope this clear it

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like im not dumb enough to just let it go that ghost literally " 🤡 "

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so hence i already talked about it with ender yesterday

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Also you might have missed the point or you completely missed yesterday problem of izumo vs monarch, it's not the matter of who giving the "opinion" or advice, it's the matter of why is it wrong, im not disagreeing that what it ended up is not great look for the chat but it is also worth noting that the start of the conversation of said person ignoring vets collected experience of why monarch > izumo

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Also i will note this "frankly an unimportant part of the game, and picking any of the ships to develop is whatever anyway" this take is not always correct, the whole point of the channel is to help user to the fullest except if they asked otherwise and this have been what the channel is since the start

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Again the take away from this is it is highly preferrable if the recommendation help said user to the fullest and ofc what gray and others do yesterday was not needed and wrong

misty lotus
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So is giving optimal advice part of the rules or not I am confused

If giving non-optimal advice is allowed why was this guy told yesterday his opinion is wrong and he should not have shared it?
There is absolutely nothing wrong about telling someone to build izumo instead of monarch
None of these 2 will brick an account or hurt progress

Also can I see the “vast amount of data” of why monarch > izumo
I am fairly active in #gameplay-help but I must have missed that memo

I have always seen ppl recommend ppl to focus a season for one reason or another
Suchi’s shipyard guide gives multiple options
So does Sam’s guide iirc

Also i have always seen people recoomend building roon
Or saint louis or AvP or anchorage etc
There has never been a solid consensus and all of these recommendations have been fine

I suggested ibuki (which I linked in the op). Am I wrong for suggesting this? According to who? Please designate an arbiter of truth in that channel since apparently we have been misleading newbies for so long

Who determines what opinion is allowed or not?
If there is an unofficial council please share their findings and deliberations.
Next time we will just link to that study and avoid this whole toxic argument

valid geode
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It is like unwritten rules, everywhere you go in any games help channel is always like this, you are allowed to give advice based on what you know but it is better if it's the best, like just think of it like this, if you go looking for help are you looking of just "ok" help or "a help that set you up good for the future"

Also again you literally missed the entire point of yesterday izumo vs monarch
people saying monarch is just way easier to develop and the ships is great compared to izumo which is facts, it is not about "wow picking izumo, bad shit recommendation"

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the whole shit about yesterday was

guy recommend izumo
some people saying nah don't do that, monarch is easier and better
guy is like nuh uh, izumo is better and easier

misty lotus
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So his recommendation was not wrong
It was just not optimal
And there is no written rule that opinions need to be optimal
Except there is unwritten rules that it NEEDS to be optimal

But also when a regular gives non-optimal opinion it is fine
But when a newbie gives fine advice that is not optimal they deserve to be bullied for it

Is this correct?

valid geode
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? regular most of them doesn't even give unoptimal recommendation tho if they did then someone corrected

Also bruh, i literally fucking wrote it above the fucking bully was not ok, maybe read instead of keep pushing it like i said "oh bullying is fine"

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I literally fucking explained that part was not ok and i already discussed it with ender

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what part of that sentence it makes it ok

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I already explained that not optimal is fine but it is better if it's optimal and bullying is not ok
which part is unclear

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We have never warn anyone that give shit advice, most of them already self corrected by most people in gph regular

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that is never part of rule breaking

misty lotus
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Samheart’s shipyard guide has multiple non-optimal recommendations. Why is it allowed?

And if bullying is not allowed or okay why does it keep happening?
Why did no one shut down that conversation yesterday and it went on for 4 hours?

valid geode
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If it doesn't happen then we don't need mods or any police, We have police irl, why does crime still happen? that is the same analogy

jovial monolith
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Bro tryna avoid the burden of proof?

misty lotus
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So presumably the offending parties have all been warned? And we shall not see this behavior in the future from the same offending persons?

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Also u did not address my point
Why is sam’s non optimal guide allowed?

valid geode
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Making more mistake or not is up to them, but yes we do handout warns

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???????

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go back read to what i wrote

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"I already explained that not optimal is fine but it is better if it's optimal"

misty lotus
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Where? Link it pls

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So if it is fine why was he told to keep his opinion to himself by multiple people?

valid geode
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I already explained this but i will write it again

He giving recommendation was fine, people corrected it to a better recommendation, he fought back and the whole shit happen

misty lotus
misty lotus
valid geode
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but people said the data yesterday about how monarch is easier than izumo tho?

misty lotus
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I did not see any data
All I saw was baseless opinions in a sea of bullying and insults

valid geode
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He literally already told of this

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monarch need 7 ship to make and izumo need 10, i don't remember the rest

misty lotus
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Monarch needs 10 as well
So the best data is 1 factually wrong statement?

tepid finch
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Right. Okay lets all just take a step back for a second.

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What yuki is trying to say is that obv any form of bullying and harrasment is a no go. It was obv a mistake on our part to let it play out for as long as it did. However. I do want to remind you all that you are free to ping/DM us at any time.

misty lotus
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This does not address the source of the problem
At the moment the channel regulars feel like they have an unofficial mandate to bully newbies and outsiders for giving “wrong” opinions based on 0 evidence and data

Please address the route of the problem

tepid finch
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It's ofc a bit of a difficult conundrum since you have the right to an opinion. But i can understand gph wanting to help someone in the direction of the most optimal way of doing something. If someone wants help with something and you want to give a suggestion may i suggest going "It might not be optimal but you could do this"

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If someone comes flying in and starts to talk shit on you for that please let us know.

misty lotus
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And they could have said this without insulting and ragebaiting

The person who was bulled tried to disengage from the conversation more than 5 times from what I saw

He literally said this is my opinion and later was told to keep his (shit) opinions to himself

tepid finch
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Did you or the person ping the moderators at any point

misty lotus
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Some ppl pretended to be moderators and made up imaginary rules
Does this count?

Also at some point there was afaik but the conversation was still ongoing from what I can tell
For some reason

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I know you are probably not a gph mod/admin
I Invite you to go back and read it for yourself
This is a regular occurrence in that channel

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Anyway thanks for addressing my post
I have said I all I care about this topic

Please make a post/new rule in #gameplay-help so that no one else gets bullied in the future

tepid finch
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From what i gather no one pinged the mods or admins. This could be resolved if this had been done. Like i said before. We obv do not allow gatekeeping/elitism/bullying.
You also have to rememeber that while there is no rule on things being optimal. The veterans have been around for a while and tend to know how things turns out if you do them in a less than optimal way. They don't want someone to be doing something that takes extra time and resources. If the person had come in and clarified they weren't looking for the most optimal way there would prob be more room for people suggesting otherwise.

tepid finch
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Next time please ping the mods.

misty lotus
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I did not expect it
Thank you anyway