pvp

[sharp wing]

Don't think survivability bonus from Rudder can compare to damage boost from shell

So ye

[elder crane]

So the top contenders right now are, I think:
SG/Shell
SG/Rudder(or badge)
Replace SG with HFCR if you want to run that

I'll have to check out double-shell but I don't think that's good

veeeeery much not good

since the skill doesn't stack

you lose like 10% eHP for a 2-3% bonus average dmg on main and 2-3% less damage on vanguard

vs SG/Shell

[vague token]

double shell is bad because amagi says hi

you definitely want at least the the 45 hit

base hit will make you sad

[elder crane]

well it's mostly the lack of skill stacking that immediately makes it non-competitive

without the critboost SG/Shell vs SG/SG gains about 5% damage vs main (0% vs vanguard) for almost 10% lost eHP

aka the critboost is worth over 5% damage

which means..... for sure you use it on KMS I think

well I'll be eating my words there

[sharp wing]

[elder crane]

wait a fing second

my rows are mislabelled

I was wondering why the effect seemed so large

erm, ignore all of what I said above

except the part on double-shell being complete shite, that still applies

heck I swapped label on "critrate boost" and "crit dmg boost"

ofc +25% critrate is broken af

SG/Shell sacrifices about 7-9% eHP for 7-9% damage boost vs main, about 5% vs vanguard (aside from ykkz who laughs cause only 2% more on her)

loses about 1% more eHP than that for same other diffs, comparing HFCR/Shell to HFCR/SG

and if you run rudder for sure pair SG with it, Rudder with Shell is dogshite (6-8% lost eHP for 4% more on main, same on vanguard, 5% less on ykkz)

huh it seems with lv120 SG/Rudder now has an advantage on a pure-"1v1" tradeoff vs SG/SG

[wicked rivet]

would shell in shop be better than purp FCR?

[silver root]

15 eva is equal to 7~9% eHP?

not doubting, actually curious

[elder crane]

yeeeep

and rudder eva is worth around 20-30% eHP

[silver root]

[elder crane]

well, boost, in terms of lost eHP for not running it it's around 20-25% lost eHP

grrr the difficulties of conveying multiplier differences

[modern tree]

Shell from core has 9 less ACC but 33 more FP and a crit damage passive. It's much better than purple fcr

[elder crane]

okay, so SG/SG vs SG/Rudder is about 11% more dmg on main, 15% on VG, 20% on ykkz, in exchange for losing about 11-13% eHP

ehhh that just sounds like the old tradeoff I mentioned, so not much change there I think

so for now I think 3 "best" trade-off setups on Namayuu in mirror for BB aux:
SG/Shell (most dmg)
SG/SG
SG/Rudder(or Badge) (most survivability)
(sub in HFCR for SG when you use that)

And two niche setups

Rudder/Badge (max survivability, but loses more %dmg than it gains %eHP)

Rudder/Shell (in-between SG/SG and SG/Rudder, but will lose on a "1v1" basis against either)

and holy **** Louis has a lot of Eva
Even with her low luck she has better Evarate than CLs

Fricken 170 or so eva at lv120 with rudder and speed boost if I'm not off on my calcs

for some reason I never seem to have crunched those numbers

Updated calcs here
maybe I'll expand on them in future, especially to include other ships
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xVEtFH-CFDc0pcGb4VGNWaJ0z4RNJz1OP0A3CwQ0p78/edit?usp=sharing

[vague token]

sanrui is also faster than belfast by 2 xD

[elder crane]

idk I'd run SG/Rudder or SG badge since she takes a lot of heat as flag
SG/Shell on Amagi imo is more interesting

[modern tree]

not stackign eva on flag will probably kill you if opposing naga barrages

[elder crane]

oh right derp HFCR/Shell

grrr all of this is blending together especially in this heat, imma take a short break

[vague token]

[finite valve]

tfw when you use foxes so don't have to worry about stupid math

[ionic magnet]

cant wait for ppl to equip shells to die faster

[finite valve]

shell only worth it on auto crt ship like bisko or WS

rest is just meh

[coral wren]

i have a feeling with white shell ws is gonna steal mvp from monarch every time

[elder crane]

erm, white shell is only gonna boost her snipe damage by ~20% or so over SG, I think

and other damage by ~10% or so at best

crit dmg multiplier is already 150%, +25% is 175% for an effective increase of ~15%

[modern tree]

Barrages are unaffected by shell

[elder crane]

oh right I keep forgetting that

[modern tree]

you run shell on Warspite because she has double ACC of other BBs base and 90 luck

[elder crane]

you can tell I don't play HMS

well more like you run shell cause WS is usually in a decently safe spot

[modern tree]

I mean, 50FP before QE buff is still gonna make a noticable difference for barrages, but you dont run it for the passive

[elder crane]

Also since when is 100 Acc double that of 70?
Isn't til her retro that she gets 125

[vague token]

what's the closest aa gun to the 100mm pr one?

in terms of stat spread

[elder crane]

105 mm

[vague token]

ok

[elder crane]

a teeny bit more damage for a teeny bit longer reload for the 100mm PR AA vs the 105

and everything else is identical

aside from nation but that doesn't matter for AA guns afaik

[vague token]

gotcha, thanks

[nova tree]

for AA selection, backline should have max range AA guns while vanguard gets higher RPM guns?

[elder crane]

If you check the pinned PvP guide, and go to the FAQ section, I've a short rule-of-thumb and a larger analysis written there

From that,
"
Without the PR STAAG AA gun, for a rule of thumb, half of your ships should run the Bofors gun, half should run the 113 gun, with 113 in a tied slot.
For some slight further optimization on the Anti-Air setup, run the 113 on higher AA ships and Bofors on lower AA ships.
With the PR STAAG AA gun, for a rule of thumb, all your main fleet should run STAAG if possible, then run as many 113 as you have STAAG, and fill rest with half/half 113/Bofors
For some further optimization on the Anti-Air setup, run the 113 on the highest AA vanguards and replace the Bofors with STAAG on lower-AA vanguards
"

[ionic magnet]

well backline gets staag p much right? cos of hit bonus

[elder crane]

yep

[ionic magnet]

oh yea you wrote it there nice

[elder crane]

if you're subbing in the 105 gold AA cause you're lacking guns, it counts about like half of a 113 and half of a Bofors

[nova tree]

so it'd be more beneficial for Amagi (lower AA state) to get STAAG instead of Junaeu?

[elder crane]

For sure
But the main reason of STAAG on Amagi is for the +10 Acc stat bonus

STAAG is the only (current) AA gun that, for whatever reason, also gives Acc stat as well as AA stat

[nova tree]

ah thats why

[elder crane]

but yeah, it's also good to have higher AA damage guns on higher AA stat/slot efficiency ships due to how AA works in AL

Overall, the points of optimization for AA outside of the Acc stat on STAAG, in order of importance:

1. Optimize the mix of AA guns you use - this has by far the largest effect
2. Optimize placement based on AA damage, for a small improvement
3. Optimize placement based on reload
   (if AA damage potential is about equal and there's a large reload stat difference, you want the faster-reloading gun on the lower reload stat ship - this effect is quite small though)

triply, low reload stat too (relative to other members)

yay +0 this reset....

[nova tree]

hm would beaver be beneficial enough for belfast to replace your recommended any of bulge, boilers, toolbox, and pearl tears?

I have bel, jun, and yuki for vanguard

[elder crane]

Actually, kinda yes, that and the PR Rudder
It gives the most eHP of all the options vs non-torpedo damage
But:
You want pearl somewhere, and Bel is a nice and reliable spot for it usually
Lead spot eats lots of torps and would prefer Bulge first
You want 2-3 engines with the typical CL/CL/DD setup so that the vanguard can reliably dodge BB shots by moving around, and those need to go somewhere

I at least think that's optimal

...not really

another Eva equip boosts her evasion rate by about 5%, and her Evasion rate vs damage ranges from ~30%-50%

Bulge imo offers more

[midnight heron]

just rushed 5 runs cuz logged in late lul

[elder crane]

well I use 2 with a lower-speed fleet and it works fine overall

[nova tree]

made just in time then lol

[elder crane]

Louis is 2 speed faster than the Sheff I'm using

+0

[buoyant parrot]

**NightRaven Guild 37/38 Rec Lv80+Player^^ **

[elder crane]

oh no not here too

[buoyant parrot]

Yeah we direly need 1 to fill the slot

We need more hammbite logistic

[elder crane]

loool 679 10/10 for me

I'm 16pts behind you

a full match + 1 pt

hmm, I do love my

[shy hazel]

[shell heron]

699 10/10

now I'm even more confused on why I was 29/30 on the weekly

[elder crane]

oh huh there's a 24H CD on applying for guilds

didn't know that

what hey you were one match below me on pts

....did I miss matches?

[shy hazel]

my points are lower

but well see season end

[elder crane]

the heck I swear Cay was lower than me earlier

[shell heron]

I was also 10/10 at the time to your 9/10

[elder crane]

Wasn't it the other way around?

[shy hazel]

scores pretty much swings early

it balances out mid season

[elder crane]

I was 10/10 and you were 9/10

[shy hazel]

u got too many points so u get less bonuses

[elder crane]

is the heat getting to my brain

[shy hazel]

unless u wake up every reset

[shell heron]

I'm pretty sure I was 10/10. But midseason will screw me like always

[shy hazel]

typical timeline

there were alot of times im lower than most ppl here season start

in most of the time higher season end if i dont sleep on any charge

[ionic magnet]

@shell heron you prolly missed a match cos im 698 10/10 rn and i started with 136 first five matches

[shell heron]

I wonder when did that happen

[ionic magnet]

[shy hazel]

[elder crane]

I'm in Canada so didn't even hit 30 C here
but then again I'm Canadian and so already started melting

[shy hazel]

lets see season end

[cerulean estuary]

[buoyant parrot]

I'll be back in CA this August, where are you in CA?

[shell heron]

I too stalled until 2nd reset but got a 146 start instead

[stone grove]

I got to 8th rank on Washington server with a memey offence fleet

[buoyant parrot]

anyone can be top 1 everyother day with proper sandbagging lol

[shell heron]

We always lurk beneath you until the last hour

[elder crane]

I'm in the GTA region so it's Canada-lite, imo

[buoyant parrot]

oh, gonna be back to OT, Scarborough

[elder crane]

eyyyy
I'm on the opposite side in Mississauga though

[buoyant parrot]

I miss the winter so much that I felt like having my wet balls stick to a poll this coming winter

[shy hazel]

do it

until it sticks

[elder crane]

Ether are you drunk?

will stick instantly on the right days

[shy hazel]

frostbite on your stick

[cerulean estuary]

gotta find the pot of gold by the leprecons

[shy hazel]

[stone grove]

I was going to be off in the last hour so I figured I'd pvp while I remembered to
Just didn't expect to ever get in top 10 with memes

[elder crane]

but luckily enough one of the easier detach options is readily available

[buoyant parrot]

my year is full of summer... I was in Aussy this December (summer) then Philippines SUMMER again... OMG please 1 year of nothing but summer. I HATE SUMMER!

[elder crane]

pee on it

[cerulean estuary]

@buoyant parrot are u pinoy?

[shy hazel]

id like for it ti be summer soon

[buoyant parrot]

I did try to lick a poll when I was on Medicine Hat way back a year ago

[elder crane]

I fricken hate summer

[shy hazel]

my gas and electricitg expenses too high on winter

[elder crane]

anything above 25 C starts melting me

[buoyant parrot]

GOT STUCK doing so... good thing my friend has coffee with him and poured into the poll for me to unstuck my tongue

[elder crane]

at 35 I just sit in front of the aircon basically

[shy hazel]

scary

[elder crane]

if you touch with bare skin it starts sticking to you

[shy hazel]

are u gonna pour coffee on your stick

[elder crane]

leave it for too long and it takes a layer off your skin

[buoyant parrot]

when I get back to OT I'll prolly try my balls and see what happens

[elder crane]

leave it for longer then that and you're actually stuck

[buoyant parrot]

this is of course for SCIENCE...

[stone grove]

I used to live in Canada, saw people lick the poles and lose layer off the tongue to that

[elder crane]

no warm water on hand I suppose

or paniced

[stone grove]

Yep

[elder crane]

pee is always an option though :P

[buoyant parrot]

its funny coz I've been seeing it a lot in cartoons way back... I didn't know that it was base in real life that it fascinated me 😂

[shy hazel]

stop talking bout morbid things

it reminds me of winter horrors

frostbites with a hole in the fingers

[elder crane]

the fast heat transfer of metal basically instantly freezes all moisture/water on contact

luckily not too large heat capacity

[shy hazel]

its so traumatic when i get frostbites

[elder crane]

and you can overwhelm it with just some warm water

[shy hazel]

imagine sticking skin

[elder crane]

but yeah, don't even touch bare metal with bare skin on really cold days

[cerulean estuary]

apply cold water to burned skin

[elder crane]

unless you like a nice, deep, exfoliation

[shy hazel]

i never go outside on winter without gloves

[buoyant parrot]

Too bad I wasn't there when the polar vortex happened in OT

[elder crane]

What's OT anyways?

[buoyant parrot]

Ontario

[elder crane]

That's ON or ONT

I've never seen OT O.o

[buoyant parrot]

Oh sorry I was kinda associated with yzz in passport

[elder crane]

oh yeah, the "idk what code to give it" of Pearson Airport

YYZ
everyone else is like, CDG = Charles de Gaulle
PEK = Beijing (Peking)

[buoyant parrot]

😂

[elder crane]

but then some airports have these rando serial combinations

BER = Berlin

LHR = London HeathRow

[buoyant parrot]

do you go to convention in Toronto?

[stone grove]

SFO = San Francisco Int'l

[elder crane]

I haven't, but I probably should at some point

[stone grove]

IIRC YYC = Calgary Int'l

[buoyant parrot]

that's kinda far yet close... I believe you can drive to down town toronto right?

[elder crane]

AniNorth, right?

[buoyant parrot]

We drove to Mississauga before to visit museum there

[stone grove]

Nice

[elder crane]

huh it seems like all the Y[whatever] codes are canadian

YET = Edson Airport, Alberta

[buoyant parrot]

I miss maple bacon so much, I wish I could go back sooon™

[elder crane]

oh nvm YES isn't

Yasuj Airport, Iran

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airports_by_IATA_code:_Y
It's almost all Canada though

Probably minus the ones that actually sorta spell out an airport from somewhere else

rest are mostly serial codes for rando Canadian Airports

[buoyant parrot]

soooooon be back there... be singing
Oh Canada, The home of bacon land...
True pastries love, with all thy sauce command~
with glowing tart sweet treat delight
The true north strong and sweet!

[elder crane]

What's your opinion on Beaver Tails?

[buoyant parrot]

haven;t tasted it.. looks good though

[elder crane]

well they're pretty commonish in Ontario these days

[buoyant parrot]

oh really~

[elder crane]

so shouldn't be had to find one

there's one in UTM occasionally
most ski places have one too

[buoyant parrot]

Looks evil so im sure I'm going to get my hands on it

[hot creek]

oh hey cool. I wanted to test something else as well

need to know whether or not you still get bonus if you fight someone who technically has more point than you but you never refreshed

[elder crane]

who's on your list?

[hot creek]

or if you were in the middle of fighting and they happen to do their pvp by the time you finish

[finite valve]

pretty sure that's a yes

[hot creek]

cyaneko has me on his list

[finite valve]

you will notice those on rush day

[elder crane]

it's really obvious sometimes on rush days

[hot creek]

I wouldnt know cause I always be relogging

[buoyant parrot]

anywho I'm out for this season, be back on the next one

so if you see me on your farthes left, im always rushing

[finite valve]

[buoyant parrot]

omg my Yukikaze died while ramming Hiryuu in Invul mode... I didn't see that coming... I thought you wound;t get any damage from it despite hiryuu in invul mode.

[finite valve]

she take no dmg not you

[elder crane]

iirc she can reduce ram to 1 dmg though

[finite valve]

unless the skill stated that neither she or her enemies don't take no dmg

is as intended

pretty sure that's jesus kai domain

akagi chan does that to a certain extend no?

[elder crane]

wait if you offset two of those, one on each team,

could you get almost an infinite-stall?

[hot creek]

jesus needs no kai

would be great if she didnt exist

[crisp sage]

What's the counter comp for this

they refuse to die

[elder crane]

.... shall someone break the bad news to him?

[sharp wing]

[elder crane]

well at least the positioning on vanguard is suboptimal and the fleet isn't full 120

[sharp wing]

Ppl think in this "perfectly balanced" game you can counter everything

[elder crane]

that's one of the top fleets, you'll want to consult the pinned guide on other good teams

[ionic magnet]

by counter, do you mean a comp that can beat that cancer?

[elder crane]

if you build any of those a victory is decently high-%

Mirror is the best team vs it though sadly, but that reaches very high win-%

[ionic magnet]

any namagi comps, hms, foxes and other decent comps can with enough rng

[elder crane]

(aka no "counter" so to speak)

[sharp wing]

WS Kai will deliver us

[lament lichen]

You win by refreshing the list

[ionic magnet]

theres no sandy kai yet still so ws kai is still a dream

[sharp wing]

Goddess Sandy will deliver all

[ionic magnet]

[elder crane]

if we get WSkai first,
Sandy has made the ultimate sacrifice, and out-Jesused Juneau

She died for the sins of the AL devs

[sharp wing]

[ionic magnet]

i wont complain about that

[sharp wing]

Heresy

[ionic magnet]

[sharp wing]

You speak foul things

[crisp sage]

I feared the worst, and it was expected

[elder crane]

yep, you found a top-meta fleet

[crisp sage]

Welp, I'll just keep messing around with a full kms fleet then

[sharp wing]

Top Cancer

[ionic magnet]

oh my kms

[sharp wing]

Ohboi

KMS enthusiasts

[buoyant parrot]

[sharp wing]

You shall leave pvp till it's too late

[elder crane]

Bis/Tirp/GZ Roon/Jun/ykkz should be pretty decent

[crisp sage]

I saw a comp on AriPanda's guide involving FDG and Bismarck that I really want to try some day

[buoyant parrot]

I'll pray for your sanity...

[sharp wing]

[elder crane]

it should be good enough to beat that sometimes, if set up well

[crisp sage]

speaking of

[sharp wing]

That's way off...

[crisp sage]

I mean it's a KMS fleet

[light kestrel]

FDG is a degen unit and can basically just win by herself

[elder crane]

heh idk why he thinks Sandykai>Ykkz

[crisp sage]

Of course it's not the comp I'm talking about

[elder crane]

the CV meta is dead

[sharp wing]

Well, main full KMS VG is not an option atm

[buoyant parrot]

let me tell you now, every time I see a KMS fleet at this season even all of them is Lv120 I considered it a fodder fleet. It can;t pretty much beat any of the Tier List that we have on EN

[elder crane]

there's no good full-nation vanguard

[sharp wing]

well, IJN can pull it off

[elder crane]

mostly cause Jun and Ykkz are almost always too broken to not include

[crisp sage]

IJN's full of one-woman-army units

[sharp wing]

That's USS actually

IJN is team based

[elder crane]

eh full-IJN is suboptimal too

You want aurora in torpmemes

[buoyant parrot]

that KMS fleet can't even beat the lowest Tier we have on our PvP Guide

[crisp sage]

Nagato and Yukikaze and still flex by themselves, even if it's not optimal

[sharp wing]

I mean it works, not top

[crisp sage]

Amagi as well

[light kestrel]

Yeah or Belfast If not torp memes

[crisp sage]

@buoyant parrot I assume that pvp guide is in pins?

[elder crane]

I'd say full-HMS almost as good as full-IJN

[buoyant parrot]

yes

[sharp wing]

Belfast extinct when Akaga extinct

[elder crane]

yep that one

[buoyant parrot]

this one
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BglmSOaD1ec8zc6bKwiItf2OcQueoRNxF3UGzlQnHBU/edit?usp=sharing

[elder crane]

Well Bel isn't terrible outside of akaga-countering

she's probs mostly good enough to not have to worry about it too much

[sharp wing]

Well, she is more of my waifu point, so i just use in anyway

[vague token]

saint louis is a bigger bel when you arent countering foxes

xD

[finite valve]

until you have dev 30 sanrui or nep that's is

[elder crane]

Saint Louis is to counter Aurora imo

I think Nep is better generalist, maybe

[ionic magnet]

bigger bel sounds good

[elder crane]

Aurora meta isn't happening yet on EN so far

[crisp sage]

Interesting

[sharp wing]

Bel cannot get any "bigger"

[finite valve]

aurora with what foxes or WS kai?

[crisp sage]

As an underdog at least it will be fun to hunt these comps down once I perfect things

[elder crane]

Aurora in Namayuu

[crisp sage]

Like a bounty list, see how far I can go

[vague token]

to be fair sanrui is faster than most cls xD

[elder crane]

apparently that's the best anti-mirror strat vs not-Louis

[vague token]

34 vs 32 and 33

[sharp wing]

and more eva

[light kestrel]

We don’t have hiryuu Kai so that matters

[sharp wing]

Kai doesn't matter

[elder crane]

Yeah, small diffs abound

[finite valve]

aurora in cancer comp to me is just sub optimal

[sharp wing]

it's very slight boost

[crisp sage]

Kai is just like a cherry on top

[finite valve]

unless you are mirror

[elder crane]

Kai matters possibly for Aurora strat

[finite valve]

or vs stall comp

[light kestrel]

Aurora is also just not great

[coral wren]

15k defense teams on both backline and vanguard are a thing now

[light kestrel]

She dies really easily

[elder crane]

At 120 that's less an issue

and plus mirror is the only challenging matchup anyways

[sharp wing]

every1 dies, but Aurora makes enemy vg die faster

[finite valve]

@coral wren if anything 15k team are the easiest to beat lel

[elder crane]

the other interesting thing to try out is Namagi-KagaBB

[sharp wing]

dildo teams, lul

[finite valve]

sub optimal gear for inflated fleet power

[sharp wing]

same like 14k vgs on EN

[elder crane]

Namagi-KagaBB for a short moment was the CN meta for the top people there before Hiryuu was dredged up

without Hiryuu kai on EN it might not be so clear-cut

[sharp wing]

kagabb deals better when you face another BB on side

I use it vs NamaHyuuKai

[elder crane]

Well slam Amagi with KagaBB, do the usual amagi focus on Hiryuu

[sharp wing]

It's so much better

[elder crane]

and it might work?

Since Hiryuu might not be enough to wipe in return if you do it fast enough

[sharp wing]

Kaga is to melt heavies

Amagi as usual

anything med

[elder crane]

she's pretty tanky outside of aviation though, KagaBB

and with not-kai Hiryuu aviation damage is reduced a bit on Namayuu

I think it's worth testing out

thoughts on what the VG should be for that?
I assume it's probs not much diff from Namayuu, but I wonder on torps vs full-stall vs semi-(aurora)-stall

[sharp wing]

stall

[coral wren]

Blue why do you keep showing up in my defense roulette

[sharp wing]

[coral wren]

[elder crane]

um, should I set up something less of a wall

[sharp wing]

Will have to wait 30 mins anyway till def team refresh

[elder crane]

hey if you can beat me, bonus pts probs cause I'm doing a few matches soon, I think

hmm, 30 mins on def team refresh?

[sharp wing]

Wasn't it like that?

[elder crane]

idk I actually don't know anything about def team refreshing
I thought it's on resets only, cause whenever we had new lv unlock I never saw fleets w newly unlocked levels until the first reset after patch
but that could just be luck

[sharp wing]

At max it should be ladder refresh aka 1 hr

But i remember talking about 30 mins

[elder crane]

yeah, I never paid much attention overall to that, but it's something that would be interesting to know

[coral wren]

after two resets, I beat you

[sharp wing]

[elder crane]

oh darn just realized messed up my calcs

I forgot to include bonuses from non-aux equip

I don't think it changes too much? (Aux selection on Namagi)

[sharp wing]

not really

they remain same for diff aux

numbers would be pretty comparable if at all different

[elder crane]

well now shells are weaker since FP is higher
and SG weaker cause total Hit is higher

[sharp wing]

total hit... STAAG?

[elder crane]

yeah ofc

[sharp wing]

well, there many ppl without single staag nayways too

so odds of having 1 on that exact ship

[elder crane]

well that's not me is it

[sharp wing]

[elder crane]

but in all seriousness you can just fork the doc and edit it yourself

[sharp wing]

Where is my :lazy: emote

[coral wren]

wait, the STAAG aa gun is actually good?

i crafted one earlier today and got it to +10

out of curiosity

[sharp wing]

That's BiS main fleet AA gun

[vagrant veldt]

Gives hit. The first AA gun to serve two purposes and changed the AA slot choices of ships

[coral wren]

oh I see

I’m currently running Namagi + Enty backline, who should I put it on then

Nagato or Amagi?

[lament lichen]

I would put it on amagi first

[sharp wing]

Every ready for 12 hrs maint

[arctic imp]

fk yeah

top 20

[sharp wing]

[shy hazel]

how,cute

[trim horizon]

[midnight heron]

how to be meta

[sharp wing]

[elder crane]

Not AA radar smh

[midnight heron]

jokes aside it made me rmb a question i had before

ever since the ui update we had the planes show an evasion limit stat

how does that even work

inb4 sg radar reduces dat eva

[waxen crater]

Guys I have discovered something that you all probs already knew about

Essex is coming out in August and i hear she’s very good in everything including pvp

[vague token]

o.O

[elder crane]

Evasion limit is used for ch13

Your planes get shot at in ch13

And can evade being hit

Essex is mainly anti-CV tech, and this is very much not the meta for her

#Amagi ruining things again

[midnight heron]

so ch13 is pvp now

[elder crane]

She was used in WaSD to counter Nakaga

Ehh just giving some context on a stat, for why irrelevant in PvP

[vague token]

does evasion limit do anything in pvp

xD

or does it not exist

lol

[waxen crater]

I mean I’ve seen gameplay and people say she’s good 😂

[midnight heron]

nah i mean its like pvp cuz ur plane gets shot

[waxen crater]

But idk it that’s after PR2 comes out

[elder crane]

It doesn't matter outside of ch13 afaik

[midnight heron]

and yea same question about it doing anything in pvp

[vague token]

aww

[waxen crater]

I mean planes have always been shot at in pvp 😂

And she gives herself and her team a nice buff so I wasn’t sure if it changes anything

[elder crane]

That was back when Amagi didn't happen
Remember, we got her early

Neither WaSD nor Foxes are top meta anymore

[waxen crater]

I’m not saying to use her in only WaSD tho

[elder crane]

And since Essex was mainly WaSD's anti-Akaga tech, well

[waxen crater]

Hmmm I dunno I feel like if you use her with war kai

[trim horizon]

ws kai

[waxen crater]

She could become a valuable asset to a USS team if you make it right

[vague token]

eh

[waxen crater]

Everything needs a ws kai let’s be honest...

[elder crane]

Overall thing still holds
Essex is anti-CV, and CVs aren't an issue anymore

[vague token]

essex doesnt really do that much to stop hiryuu

[elder crane]

Hiryuu isn't really a normal CV anyways

[vague token]

yeah

[elder crane]

Essex is interesting if you're facing at least 2 CVs

[waxen crater]

Maaan I’m just trying to avoid amagi and nagato 😂

[vague token]

you can avoid nagato

[elder crane]

Otherwise she provides not much

[vague token]

but you cant avoid amagi

like, nagato is strongest but you can still make amagi/x/x work

sometimes

xD

especially since most people arent all 120

[waxen crater]

Stupid pvp 😂

[vague token]

personally ill be trying essex as a more consistent and faster sara, with 500 less base hp >_>

[waxen crater]

Yah she’s still waifu so I want to try and get her to work

[elder crane]

Essex strike power, while not bad, is also not particularly powerful

[vague token]

well, she has standard aviation

for her tier

maybe a tiny bit higher

since she buffs herself to 1.05

[waxen crater]

Doesn’t she also give off more ships as a skill

Yah and buffs herself

[vague token]

oh god

does flood override or renew?

[waxen crater]

I mean she’s definitely a CV counter tho

[vague token]

like if i have essex AND sara

[elder crane]

Oh also planes shooting down planes is kinda not much of a thing in PvP

[vague token]

does the weaker sara flood override the essex flood?

[finite valve]

flood override burn if that what you mean

[vague token]

no i mean like

[finite valve]

i think both flood are the same

[vague token]

do floods override or renew

they arent

[waxen crater]

Like do they stack?

[vague token]

essex has a higher aviation ratio on her flood

so it'll be stronger than sara's

sara is always going to be after essex

[finite valve]

unless they code specific flood for diff ship

i would say no

[vague token]

so im curious as to the renew or override

[finite valve]

in this case the higher avi ship flood will override the weaker one

[elder crane]

Ehh, reference on that?

[vague token]

like flood is on a whopping 3 ships

[elder crane]

Burns for example will not do that

[vague token]

who knows what the rules are

[finite valve]

normal skill works that way

[waxen crater]

If it stacks then holy shit 😂

[finite valve]

and also like i said

[vague token]

floods dont stack

[waxen crater]

A double flood or burn lol

Oh nvm then

[vague token]

just like burns dont stack

[finite valve]

unless they code diff flood burn for each unique ship

[waxen crater]

That would be nice if it did

[elder crane]

Lower dmg BB fire will refresh from higher dmg BB fire but not update fire dmg

[finite valve]

it will be that way

[vague token]

where's our resident data miner

xD

[elder crane]

And yes, each flood seems to be uniquely hand-coded-in

[finite valve]

well if you are talking about higher dmg refreshing lower burn dmg than that's a yes

[elder crane]

They all have different coefficients

[finite valve]

i doubt a lower burn dmg will refresh a higher one tho

[waxen crater]

Imagine if you had an all burn/flood team and it stacks

That would be something else

[elder crane]

Lower dmg will refresh

[vague token]

lower burn damages will refresh

but higher burn damage doesnt override

it just refreshes the original

[elder crane]

If it's lower calibre it can only refresh once

Same calibre can do so indef

And it doesn't overwrite fire dmg either case

Fire dmg overwritten only if higher calibre fire is set

[finite valve]

if that the case than flood would be the same no?

[vague token]

well

who knows

[finite valve]

just refresh the first flood

[elder crane]

Yeah but there isn't a clear calibre on floods

[vague token]

i dont think floods have a caliber

just a aviation ratio

cause 1 is Sub Torp

one is Aim Torp

and one is Cuda Torp

[elder crane]

who knows

[vague token]

literally different categories

[elder crane]

Spaghetti code could mean funny things

[finite valve]

well you can ask the bois in JP to test it out for you

where's zack when we need him

[vague token]

i mean

no one (except me) would even bother with essex/sara

so not really a problem

[elder crane]

It's a PiTA to test these
Would be great to datamine instead
But ofc AL spaghetti code...

[finite valve]

well i would bother with essex

not in pvp tho

[vague token]

yeah but not necessarily with sara

[finite valve]

sara is just whatever

[elder crane]

Would you run two flooders in the same flt though

[vague token]

which means you wouldnt worry about flood overrides

ill try it

for kicks

and science

it'll be bad but w/e

ill just boot saint louis for a bit and put like

[elder crane]

It probs won't be that bad

[vague token]

port kai

[finite valve]

i mean essex is just for 2 CV+

[vague token]

amagi/essex/sara

[finite valve]

so unless you are vs foxes or bunnies kai

essex is just a good CV

[vague token]

well, essex is a better DOT ship than sara

100% activation

and an attack pattern

that actually makes sense

unless her TBF squad is aim torp

for 0 reasons

[finite valve]

[vague token]

if it's aim torp ill cry

[elder crane]

Well considering sara's is for 0 reason too....

It's possible

[vague token]

sara is a prankster though

she trolls you

with her gun aim

and by aim

[finite valve]

lex > sara anyway

[vague token]

i mean WHEE

[finite valve]

so yeh zzz

[vague token]

lex kai when

[elder crane]

Sara > Lex fite me

[finite valve]

FBI want to know your location

[vague token]

sara isnt underage, she's owari da's senpai

[midnight heron]

nice fLEX

[hidden wyvern]

https://i.imgur.com/vO8Yzlx.png

[vague token]

but yeah, essex 100% activation

unreduceable by fire extinguisher

fun times

heck i can even meme with 818 squadron on essex

to lead into sara lol

mankind wasnt meant to have this kind of power

[elder crane]

I was about to ask why not the other way around

[vague token]

then you remembered sara has 0 torp bombers

_>

=(

[elder crane]

But then you can't run comets sara

I think

[vague token]

i mean, i doubt vf/comet/comet sara is faster than x/heccdiver/cuda

i think

not sure

[elder crane]

What would it take to get 818 Essex b4 comet sara

[vague token]

i could just do zero/comet/818 essex

[elder crane]

Zero

[finite valve]

all these meme fleet

[vague token]

i guess vg would be better on essex for the higher ratio

zero/comet/comet sara

[elder crane]

Is essex more reload stat?

[vague token]

na she has 1 reload more

literally 1

[elder crane]

idk I think Me/SB2C>Zero/Comet

[vague token]

3 fighter/3 dive/2 torp

for essex

[elder crane]

Comet+Zero bombing is literally just Ju87

[vague token]

yeah, ive actually been using fairey + btd lately

xD

[elder crane]

Which is lower dmg than just sb2c

[vague token]

id use 2 btd's if i had two

[finite valve]

shouldn't have scrap them lel

[vague token]

since i learned that bomb size increases hit rate

of the bomb

xD

[elder crane]

And just plop meme 155
Or even skyrocket, not like that thing is worse than Zero if you ignore zero bombs

[vague token]

man plane bomb rules are silly

i want 45 aviation

but i want fast take off

but if the bombs are small

they miss

AND they have a smaller aoe

reeee

can we get a plane with a single 2k bomb with 45 aviation please

just one 2k bomb

[elder crane]

2x1000 is better than 2k and that already exists

But is not that fast launching

[finite valve]

inb4 rainbow hell diver that cost $10

[elder crane]

Well JP CN are getting a new gold DB

[vague token]

what was the hit rate on 1k bombs again?

wasnt it like 10% lower?

[elder crane]

Yeah but like 80% of the dmg of the 2k bomb

Cause bomb weight -> dmg scaling is terrible

The only large step up is 100lb->500lb cause that's a 5X difference in weight

[vague token]

oh it was 14%

hit rate

66 to 52

from 2k to 1k

[elder crane]

Dmg?

[vague token]

base hit rate

[elder crane]

No, like I want to know dmg diff too

[sharp wing]

1k bomb is 88% damage of 2k

54 damage diff

[elder crane]

Iirc when I did calc expected dmg of 2×1k was similar to 2k+500

[vague token]

the damage assuming all hit yeah

[elder crane]

Nah including hitrate too

[sharp wing]

2x1k and 2k+2x500 is bigg diff tho

[vague token]

oh, no, at least not according to the cn wiki

heccdiver blows everything out based on that table they have

[elder crane]

Yes ofc cause there's another 500lb bomb there

[sharp wing]

helldiver has highest hit and damage period

[elder crane]

I said 2k+500

[vague token]

oh xD

[sharp wing]

Yeah, but there no such plane

[elder crane]

But it makes for easy comparisons

When comparing full sets of loadouts

[sharp wing]

816 vs 804

[vague token]

well i only want a theoretical 2k only plane if it has a lower take off speed xD

otherwise id rather run btd or fairey firefly

at that point

(in terms of gold plane for aviation stat)

[elder crane]

Like, say you're comparing Zero/SB2C and VF-17/firefly

By doing that conversion + 2×100lb about being equal to enhanced 500lb,

You'll find the dmg potential of the two setups are similar if both slots same efficiency and plane count

Which means if you ignore AA skill the faster launch of the two setups is probably the strictly better one

[sharp wing]

It's not similar tho

but double gold Air boost

maybe it will work out

[elder crane]

Iirc when I did my calcs the two setups were super similar on dmg

Vf-17/firefly iirc the faster launching too

Mostly cause the zero is 🚮

[vague token]

xD

[sharp wing]

zero only 0.7 sec faster

not worth damage loss

[elder crane]

Basically when I did this analysis I found that the zero is never worth it, you're better off sacrificing DBs first or jumping directly to meme155

[sharp wing]

1 zero deals less damage than 1 500 bomb

[elder crane]

For ships with Fighters and DBs that is

[sharp wing]

100 bombs just deal non existent damage + poo hit

and poo area

[vague token]

[sharp wing]

155 also only 0.28 faster zero

with total lose of surface damage

Not even 1 sec faster vf-17

[elder crane]

Basically, question I was investigating is,
If you need to reload adjust on a CV with both DBs and Fighters, what's the best setups at each reload adjustment requirement?

[sharp wing]

adjust w/ vf-17

that's as far, as i'd go

discord dying again...

[elder crane]

And answer is, vf-17 is broken af, Zero is trash, sacrifice DBs down to comets first (firefly intermediate step)

and then jump directly to meme155/skyrocket

[sharp wing]

those meme only worth on 2x fighter cvs

Same as comets only worth on Akaga w/ 2 bombers

Kaga specifically

all her eff is on torp slot

[elder crane]

Idc about being "worth it"
Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to reload adjust

[vague token]

is there a take off speed calc yet

lol

[elder crane]

And that's the best reload adjust setup at that reload requirement

[sharp wing]

reload adjust is vf-17 vs other fighters w/ 500 bombs

[vague token]

we should add that to the google doc

[elder crane]

Nah I mean down past the standard/best dmg setup of vf-17/SB2C

It wasn't done with a specific application in mind

[sharp wing]

What's the point adjusting that if you lose all damage

[vague token]

team comp

not everyone is a meta slave ;)

[elder crane]

Just, "suppose adjustment 100% needed for whatever reason, what is the best you can do?"

[sharp wing]

what you usually do then

🚮 planes

[elder crane]

That's what I'm trying to determine smh

[vague token]

which trash is the shiniest trash basically

[sharp wing]

Determine 100% needed condition tho

[elder crane]

How to make the best of it when forced to use trash

[vague token]

the most polished trash

the diamond in the rough

;)

[elder crane]

E.g. now I can tell you that you're better off not bothering with Zeros over vf-17 on comets Sara
Better to just skip to meme155 or skyrocket and maybe upgrade a DB, better dmg for miniscule reload time increase or minimally worse dmg for faster launch time

Or run a 2×500lb fighter and eat the reload time gain

[vague token]

oh im using vf

if i did do essex/sara id move vf and slap on the meme155

probably

[sharp wing]

just put other 500 bombs fighter on cv you want launch second

[elder crane]

The point is to keep sara launch time low

[sharp wing]

leave VF on her

repuu on another

[vague token]

vf would be better on essex

?

[elder crane]

Find the best setup if we keep launch time low on her, then eval comparison

[sharp wing]

same setup w/ not VF-17

[elder crane]

Can't compare setups if you don't even know what one of them is

[sharp wing]

repuu whatever

[elder crane]

But what if we need just that reload diff?
The idea that such scenarios could come up is why I did that earlier analysis

[sharp wing]

then replace Helldivers with Junkers

[elder crane]

Comet Sara aside from being fast to apply DoTs also preempts other normal CVs

We're already on double comet

[sharp wing]

what's the point of giving yr CV 0 ground damage, esp DB focused 1...

[vague token]

because dive bombs already destroy backline anyways

[sharp wing]

putting Comets on double diver high eff cv

[vague token]

the main thing is boosting dot and gun damage

[elder crane]

DoT memes
And preempting CVs

[vague token]

also, escort damage boost

[elder crane]

And the gun too

[sharp wing]

it's indeed memes

[vague token]

well yeah

if i wasnt doing memes

id be running hiryuu like a sane person

come on

i thought we've gone over this

;))))))

[sharp wing]

No, run Sara w/ normal setup

[elder crane]

Back in Enty meta double comet Sara was legit

[vague token]

sara with a normal setup gets nuked by amagi and owari da

because it's too slow

[elder crane]

Cause you avoided enty invul

[vague token]

xD

and your dots are weak

which means you dont get to toast vanguards

[sharp wing]

dot's aint main damage source of her...

[vague token]

it is on vanguards lol

[elder crane]

Erm, it's a pretty significant amount

[vague token]

ykk is gonna negate the majority of your bombs

[elder crane]

Idk what you mean

[vague token]

because ykk

does that

but if ykk procs on a torpedo

it still applies the full debuff

[elder crane]

Also her DoT just needs to hit once

[sharp wing]

ykk will avoid those torps as well

[vague token]

vanguards usually catch one

especially on first take off

[sharp wing]

tank catches it usually tho

[elder crane]

And high evasion rate on VG means you only get a few hits in on VG anyways

[vague token]

i mean, tank cls still tank your dive bombs

light armor plus belfast is beefy

or whoever

[sharp wing]

well, you don't even have 2k bombs so

[elder crane]

Can't tank fires/floods as well though

Which is the point

[sharp wing]

The point is that unreliable

[vague token]

i mean

sara is unreliable

[sharp wing]

[vague token]

her guns go everywhere

[sharp wing]

Sara is reliable double diver CV

wdym

[vague token]

she has escort damage boost for w/e reason

double diver is strictly worse imo than anything with fighter/dive/torp

[sharp wing]

She will be good without skills

[elder crane]

Erm, her dmg on VG is not exactly stellar

It's reliably not great

No matter the setup
Unles you try to RNG DoTs

Cause if she RNGs a DoT on a VG then that's heavy damage

[sharp wing]

relying on rng skill on rng hit on rng

[vague token]

exactly

see you get it

[elder crane]

You're using a meme ship, what do you expect

[vague token]

;)

[sharp wing]

Well, i mean if relying on her more raw power

[elder crane]

She's not good enough otherwise

[sharp wing]

might get much better results

[elder crane]

Better reliable average results doesn't mean much if your average is not good enough

Unless you land DoTs with Sara she's (arguably well) behind other options

[vague token]

might as well run owari da

[sharp wing]

She's pretty much behind with DoTs tbh

[elder crane]

That's the meminess you accept when you run her

[vague token]

na, against stall

dots tick hard

against torp memes

dots dont do anything

[sharp wing]

lol

[vague token]

although sara DOES have a bulk advantage over hiryuu

1700 hp difference

_>

[elder crane]

Cause a DoT on a VG from sara is a significant chunk of a stall-vg's HP

[sharp wing]

10 sec invulnerability account for more eHP

[vague token]

depends

[elder crane]

15s

[vague token]

if i trade sara vs amagi

usually it's advantage to sara

because amagi forces final counter early

while sara takes her 1700 hp + juneau

and just shrugs it off

[sharp wing]

While Final counter get's juneau

and big comeback

after 15 sec

Like Sodako comebacks

[vague token]

well

sodak comebacks were different cause hp was tiny

and the timings were lined up

with fox strike

final counter has variance

[sharp wing]

mechanics same

[elder crane]

Erm, a Amagi barrage can chunk something like 1/3 of Hiryuu HP
And you actually don't want Jun after Hiryuu proc

[sharp wing]

It happens usually

You don't choose much

[elder crane]

Not in my experience
Then again I run PR rudder Hiryuu

[sharp wing]

Also it's pretty convinient

Then yr Jun die too fast

[elder crane]

Erm, no?

[sharp wing]

what no

[vague token]

well, juneau mid with no bulge dies in a very wide range of timings for me

xD

[sharp wing]

i always run bulge and toolbox

[vague token]

pearl/boiler

for me

[sharp wing]

junie pearl?

[vague token]

sanrui cant use pearl

[sharp wing]

well

[elder crane]

Bulge/Box jun dies waaay too late if not leading

And if she leads her death timing is even more RNG

[vague token]

and ykk cant use pearl

[sharp wing]

YEah, she dies often after final counter

Which is pretty relaible

[elder crane]

Cause it's fully dependent on how enemy torps turn out

Nah bulge/box Jun mid dies often after Nagato and often Amagi too

[sharp wing]

I always tank her

She still manages to die late sometimes

[elder crane]

And then her death timing is super variable due to torpRNG

[sharp wing]

not really

Tho vs Akaga it's always much rng

[elder crane]

Mid with double Engine is much more consistent on timing

[sharp wing]

depends how you want to time it

i played mid Jun w/ boiler for a while

Wasn't to my playstyle

[elder crane]

You can adjust it up a bit if you want
But pretty sure jun heal after final counter is suboptimal

Cause if you fail to proc their final counter early, yours is the safety net

[vague token]

well with sanrui you can skip 1 boiler

so it's ok for pearl boiler juneau

[sharp wing]

I never rely on final counter

[elder crane]

You have to rely on it when RNG says "screw you"

[sharp wing]

Nah

It's just extra round of planes to me and a bit come back

[elder crane]

How else do you win from being down 3 barrages

[sharp wing]

If she is left alone I just restart

[vague token]

xD

[elder crane]

I forget, are you one of the ppl who complains about RNG in Namayuu?

[vague token]

no i only complain about your defense nagato always 0:3ing me

[elder crane]

Cause if so now I know why

[vague token]

;)

[elder crane]

Oh not you Kiro

[sharp wing]

0:3 is rng no matter how you look at it

[elder crane]

If you're not even trying to win in badrngcases when there's clearly a possibility I'm not gonna take you seriously when you complain that namayuu mirror is too RNG to have high offense winrates

[vague token]

hmm what if i tried essex/mass/amagi

with 818

xD

[sharp wing]

So you say Naga is not RNG?

[vague token]

that sounds fun

[elder crane]

I ain't saying it's not RNG
I'm saying despite it all a very high winrate is still possible

[sharp wing]

It's always possible on offense

Doesn't make it not rng

[vague token]

in the end

all things are rng

[elder crane]

Idk y'all made it seem like the thing was a coinflip
And were super skeptical at my claimed 85+%, 90% likely winrate

[vague token]

[elder crane]

And I'm saying if you don't even try for it when there's obviously a chance no wonder it feels like you have to reset half the time

[sharp wing]

Hiryy abuse win doesn't sit well to me in 1st place

Also i don't reset half time, lol

[elder crane]

Hmm, haven't seen Mass being proposed to be part of a team for a while now

[sharp wing]

80+ winrate is legit thing

But still 0:3 rng pisses me off

[midnight heron]

i complain about rng cuz sometimes when its 0:3 you know you cudve won if it was u doing 3:0

[vague token]

i mostly want to try ap rounds once people start using sanrui

since then the ratio of light to non light

[midnight heron]

but the game doesnt giv u a "revenge" mechanic to allow dat to happen

[vague token]

will be 2:4

which means you can kill a CA before juneau

and have better backline dueling pressure

[sharp wing]

yeah, each time u get 0:3 it's just faceroll

[vague token]

it's not good but i want to try it

xD

[sharp wing]

And nothing can justify that

[midnight heron]

i strongly believe dat if the game had a way to reverse the rng of a particular match in ur favour u wont need to reset dat much

but its a pipe dream

[elder crane]

Erm.... Obviously?

[midnight heron]

yea the problem is precisely because its obvious but not implemented in any way

[elder crane]

If you're winrate is at least 50% you only ever lose to bad RNG

[midnight heron]

if the enemy can rng u 0:3, why should i hav to reset more than once to get dat rng

[sharp wing]

And that 0:3 makes it pretty obvious

[midnight heron]

if u catch my drift

[elder crane]

And since offense has massive advantages that should always be possible unless your fleet is much worse

[lament lichen]

the only time i reset is when i see nagato proc the 4th time

[sharp wing]

[lament lichen]

match too long to bother

[elder crane]

So basically you're saying nobody should have to reset more than once

[sharp wing]

lol

[midnight heron]

nope im saying dat if u get bad rng, an option to reverse dat rng wud be gud

[sharp wing]

reverse rng match

[midnight heron]

cuz its very unlikely for it to happen in the first place

[sharp wing]

[elder crane]

.... Basically that means you never have to reset more than once

[midnight heron]

the fact that you can get consecutive bad rng is a big problem as well

[elder crane]

Unless your team is so shite it can't hit 50%

[sharp wing]

Well as i said, PvP is ALs second Gacha

[midnight heron]

if ur team is bad no matter how many times u reset u wont win

[elder crane]

Cause if your team has at least 50% if you lose and reverse RNG for the reset you always win

[lament lichen]

oh fun wasda team

time to use dragon sisters

[red nexus]

Seems stupid

Just rrset you goddamn lazy person

Or build a better fleet

[midnight heron]

u also need to rmb dat barrage rng isnt the only rng in place

[vague token]

well, casuals dont know WHY things are better

[elder crane]

Might as well just skip the fancy fluff and say if you reset you always win on the reset

[midnight heron]

theres the rng ur vg keeps running into shells

[elder crane]

Idk you didn't specify what RNG

[sharp wing]

There is RNG shells actually hit

[vague token]

and ykk rng ;))))

hmm, yes, nice 1500 shell

[red nexus]

Barrage procc rate

[vague token]

lets make that 1

kek

[red nexus]

Basicalky it's all rng

But it defeats the purpouse of rng skills if you get the barrage procs you didn't get before in the rerun

[sharp wing]

The purpose was already defeated

After they gave you ability to restart

[midnight heron]

thats the root of the problem

[elder crane]

Would mean then the % for barrage is meaningless

[sharp wing]

I didn't believe it was a thing at 1st, lol

[elder crane]

Well not completely so, it's still wasted time

[midnight heron]

its not meaningless if u're just given the option to reverse the rng once

so u can at least find out wat happens if u get the proc instead

[red nexus]

Yeah i agree... reset is already a huge thing they gave the playerbase

[midnight heron]

if u still lose, too bad u suck