hybrid tendon
back to 600+ now
#pvp
dusk bridge
You'll get 381 BPs from doing pr stuff. No point in getting more than 2 right now imo
zenith tundra
i use all 3 when i play amagi nagato and bb kaga. plus there really is nothing in en shop worth it unless u use ca a lot but pr weapons are better the 203 from core data. oxy if u want to meme around since it's hardly needed for anything but daily torp. the rest is literally useless
no shells no cv aux no good planes.
dusk bridge
Not sure if using 381 on all 3 would be the most efficient, but I guess if you can offset the shelling with fcr it's ok
zenith tundra
i use hsfcr on nagato and i would still use 3 381 even without. it's all about barrages not shelling
dusk bridge
Getting 6 oxy torps total should be more of a priority though for most people
zenith tundra
i cant find an use for 2 lol
dusk bridge
3 for pvp fleet, other 3 for pve ships and subs
modern tree
oxy is for subs and meming so having this many is probably redundant
dusk bridge
Well that's just silly
zenith tundra
subs is like a mini game for now. if u want to play it u do it if not doesn't matter
dusk bridge
I mean pvp is also a mini game
But yeah you're right
You can literally do anything in the game through w13 without subs
modern tree
taking 20% of health from later worlds is pretty neat. but also it requires you to play shitload of sub maps
and probably also holding way more maxed oxytorps than it is reasonable
dusk bridge
Yeah its helpful for sure, but you can still do somewhat low oil fleets in w13 without them
zenith tundra
not even w12 in en. w13 is so far away imo at least 3-4 months
modern tree
also, random spawns are killing the idea
you can barely get 4 fights with subs on SUB MAPS
dusk bridge
Also the "oxy is for memeing" stigma is just not true and really blows my mind. It's the most efficient offensive aux you can have for any situation on torp botes. Getting rid of it for boiler is like saying "I'm gonna remove hsfcr from nagato for fire extinguisher"
modern tree
okay but you ran SG radar on Aurora and though it was good
zenith tundra
let ur ship explode to random bb shoot is better right
dusk bridge
It is good lol
lament lichen
so double oxy yukikaze
modern tree
I rest my case
lament lichen
lets go
dusk bridge
Not the best but I never said it was
jovial sedge
How original
dusk bridge
I'm not trying to say stacking double oxy torp is good either, just blows my mind that people forego it for something like boiler
zenith tundra
id rather have an alive ship that does less dmg with rng torp then a dead one that does nothing
dusk bridge
Also when I put sg on Aurora, I was really not even trying for pvp anymore. And didn't need to change it for anything else
dry socket
So here you throw your logic from nowhere to nowhere
you clearly suggest maximizing vanguard potential and focusing on damage with a vanguard is more important than their survival, but then throw Aurora an SG radar and potentially decrease damage for your backline
and if you happen to not use a BB/BC back there or have SGR spares, then why throw Aurora one if you're pushing to maximize vanguard potential?
midnight heron
dusk bridge
@dry socket you obviously don't know how long ago this context was, because this sg radar Aurora thing was really just a fleet power boosting meme back when she first came out, and while it's not the best option, I have like 20 sg radars so i just threw them on everyone.
dry socket
I'm more than knowledgable of fleet power inflation via gold items
dusk bridge
It's really just something only daxam brings up to shut down any opinions I have because he doesn't have an open mind
zenith tundra
dry socket
what I'm not understanding is your logic of trying to convince others of maximizing <this>, but at the same time, throwing off <that>
zenith tundra
1 nagato barrage on that poor hood
dry socket
Nagato pretty much secures a victory if the arrows miss the vanguard 
zenith tundra
took me like 10+ tries to get it still worth to see the damage
dusk bridge
I'm not really understanding what you're trying to say, so I'll just leave it as this, the sg radar on Aurora was just something I threw together for 14k frontline when she first came out, and while I know it's not the best item to throw on her, it never gave me any issues with her surviving so I just kept it on her
It was really just a power scare for less experienced PvP players
But still worked out ok
zenith tundra
i used beaver on jintsuu because she was much tankier with it at lvl 100
dry socket
it's a complete reword of Daxam's point
you run full offensive vanguard, trying to convince us that oxytorps are useful and then place a SGR on Aurora
for some background, Daxam is a very... PvP-oriented player
He won't take in your radical idea because that's not how competitive makes it turn out
I'd trade an SGR for a boiler any day with the current stall meta, for oxytorps are just for torp memes right now with all these shells and bombs flinging around
do note you're in the pvp channel
lament lichen
"'I'm not really understanding what you're trying to say, so I'll just leave it as this, the boiler on Aurora was just something I threw together for 12k frontline when she first came out, and while I know it's not the best item to throw on her, it never gave me any issues with her surviving so I just kept it on her
It was really just a power scare for less experienced PvP players
But still worked out ok"
you use what works for you anyways
modern tree
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/226080531543097351/561578341090590771/unknown.png if you see this picure and deduce that the oxy loudout is better for ykkz then power to you, but you are wrong
pearl nimbus
We're not just in the stall meta tbh
It's kinda a mix at this point from my experience 
lament lichen
honestly just wait for 120
lament lichen
also alot of JP players dont care for pvp
dry socket
There's a guild system being implemented
which does sound interesting
I would assume it has something to do with competitive play, knowing that PvP is finally getting attention
lament lichen
its probably for pve most likely
zenith tundra
whatever that system is i hope en gets it day 1
pearl nimbus
Nah, it'll be "unstable" 
dry socket
Going to give you a big doubt sign right there
zenith tundra
i prefer to hope as i hope we get ui 2.0 day 1 too
dry socket
your hopes are quite high, consider farming Maya
wicked rivet
i got maya faster than I got poi
zenith tundra
i should farm w9 ships i have all sr already from drops
modest elbow
bb kaga or hiryuu for namagi?
dry socket
wicked rivet
hiryuu
zenith tundra
hiryuu>bb kaga imo. she is so much safter and consistent then bb kaga
wicked rivet
50% chance for an okay barrage vs 100% chance of a stall
modest elbow
okay
dry socket
mate, the barrage cuts down blocks of HP
zenith tundra
hiryuu doesnt suffer in any matchup while bb kaga makes ur comps vurnerable to cv comps
dry socket
Hiryuu is best for the long run, however
modest elbow
i'm more of a consistency guy, so how's the vanguard with namagi + hiryuu, just pure stall?
dry socket
Definitely not
lament lichen
its just stay alive
you can kill in 30 secs if it goes right
expecially agaisnt nakaga
dry socket
Amagi keeps everyone alive as Nagato and Hiryuu deal damage
zenith tundra
i use belfast juneau yukikaze. u can let ur backlines do the rest
modest elbow
wicked rivet
what do yall think of Kawakaze/Ayaya/Yuki vanguard
modest elbow
so front doesn't matter much with that backline?
modern tree
Amagi has more FP than Nagato and barrage that procs twice as often
dry socket
frontline does
it stalls for your backline to deal damage
Amagi's barrage is nowhere as overwhelming
wicked rivet
if the frontline dies too fast your backline will die aswell
dry socket
and it's not a large FP difference anyway
wicked rivet
amagi's is good for nuking a single ship
wicked rivet
always
dry socket
the frontline stalls for the backline to deal damage—a guide to pvp in a nutshell
modest elbow
i was thinking torp front cuz ijn at first
dry socket
run a mixed frontline with wasd if you wish
zenith tundra
u can run jintsuu juneau yukikaze too it should work just fine
dry socket
Jintsuu is perfect for sinking an enemy Juneau early in the battle
Hear "Juneau wa—" within a few seconds of the battle and you'll learn that it's usually a win for you
zenith tundra
namagi hyuuga test
1 barrage 70% hood hp
cant wait for max yellow skill
its unoathed but still
zenith tundra
@real notch if u have a bit of time i want u to check and correct how i see ship tiering
zenith tundra
i made a list
nagato t0 ijn
amagi t0 ijn t0.5 other
sirius t1 with carriers
sheffield t0.5 hms t1.5 others
kawakaze t1 with jintsuu
juneau t0
jintsuu t1
yukikaze t0
aurora t0.5 foxes t1.5 others
ayanami t2 jintsuu
belfast t0.5
enterprise t1
akagi t2 t0 with kaga
kaga t2 t0 with akagi
hiryuu t1 t0 with namagi
washington t1.5 t0 with south dakota
south dakota t2 t0 with washington
kaga BB t1.5 t1 with nagato
duke of york t1 t0 with queen elizabeth
hood t1 t0 with queen elizabeth
warspite t1.5 t0 with queen elizabeth
queen elizabeth t2 t0 with hms
modern tree
I cant believe all the ships from tier 2 comp are tier 0
real notch
hmmm yea maybe review the HMS ones
zenith tundra
just tell me what then
real notch
ok lemme see
zenith tundra
i just didn't want to take comps tiering into account but i guess better this way
elder crane
Ehh, I think Hiryuu is better than you give her credit for here
Defs T0.5 base at least
I ran her before Nagato, and she was still extremely strong
zenith tundra
ok t0.5 it is if everyone else agrees
real notch
nagato agree
amagi agree
sirius agree
sheffield agree
kawakaze agree
juneau agree
jintsuu agree
YKKZ agree
aurora - t0 with foxes, t1 with HMS, T2.5 otherwise
ayanami t1.5? prolly i don't use ayanami
belfast t0 still imo, as long as foxes are meta
enterprise agree
akagi agree
kaga agree
hiryuu t2 t0 with namagi (i'm not too sure about this one)
washington agree
south dakota agree
kagabb agree
(the below are HMS ships, i have experience against them but not using them)
dork t1 overall
hood t1 overall
warspite t2.5, t1.5 with QE
QE t1 with HMS
elder crane
Hiryuu carried the team I ran of Hiryuu/Amagi/Hood
real notch
yea, other people probably know more about hiryuu than me
zenith tundra
belfast t0.5 t0 against foxes?
real notch
hmm sure for hiryuu, i agree
belfast, yep, maybe even rank her lower against non-foxes
i would be ok with T1 belfast
cus there are so many CL competitors now, like i might even use sheffield over belfast if there are no foxes
modern tree
excuse me, what is the point of doing tiers for single ships if you are gonna make a bilion disclaimers describing different tiers in different circumstances
real notch
(just 1 disclaimer) 
elder crane
Nah, I'd say t0.5 for Hiryuu as an independent ship for PvP
Her skill is just brokenly powerful
Makes her absurdly tanky, and means she always gets 1 more airstrike above everyone
modern tree
qe is t2 but with hood and doy shes t0.5 but with hood warspite shes only t1
what is the actual point
of doing this
wicked rivet
There is no point of HMS fleets in EN rn
modern tree
you are already tiering the comps, lay it off
zenith tundra
u cannot tier some ships without comps
elder crane
I mean, he's kinda right 
I'd say even that most ships are tierable only in comps, sometimes even vs comps
zenith tundra
sirius is useless outside of cv comps
real notch
but some people just wanna look at a tier ranking
wicked rivet
Most ships should only be used in certain comps
real notch
if they are lazy or don't know enough about the game
elder crane
Those people can look at a comp tiering then
modern tree
instead of tiers you can make a tiny writeup like MUCH BETTER AGAINST CARRIERS, MUCH BETTER WITH CARRIERS, MUCH BETTER WITH COMP USING HER BUFF and so on
real notch
but the comp tierings don't rate individual ships
so it's only useful if i have all the ships in that comp
elder crane
And idk how much we care about ppl who won't read/think
real notch
if i only have 1 ship out of 6, then i wanna know how good that 1 ship is
well, i do that sometimes
like a new ship comes out that i didn't prepare for, and i just wanna know if she's shit in PVE or not
so i go to wis' tiering list and i double check
the number
modern tree
or whatever, I dont know, I am still waiting for people to level their amakagas
zenith tundra
un can run some ships in a lot of different comps while some are specific
elder crane
PvE is easy to eval though, overall
real notch
if the tier ranking is 1 or above, then i keep
elder crane
PvP, most ships are situational
real notch
i don't really read the descrip
yea i know my point is there are people who just want to save time and not read
zenith tundra
the descriptions don't even describe what comp they are best with all the time
elder crane
PvE flat tiering of ships imo just barely makes sense
PvP, it probably doesn't
The best you can do is make a list of individually strong ships, probably
and ignore the situational picks
real notch
naw, that can't work
modern tree
tiering comps also doesnt mae sense because someone green will just put ships together and get fucking destroyed because they thought 2 reloaders on Nagato since they dont have other items is great or something
real notch
we have to somehow account for both synergy and individual strength
real notch
like, it won't be clean, tiering ships on both criteria but the need is still there
elder crane
Most well-thought-out teams will work for offense PvP, given resetting and 20% damage
real notch
like people who read guides will still be looking for a tier ranking
to me it seems fundamental to have some sort of ranking at least
otherwise if you play it too safe, don't make any statements (that could be wrong) and just try to appeal to everyone the guide will be like useless lol
elder crane
Hmmm, then it either has to be personal or with very well-defined criteria
zenith tundra
is interesting that @elder crane u against a tiering list considering u didn't run meta comps just 3 ships that worked well but no real synergy in between them
elder crane
Such a project would definitely have to be strongly led by 1 person
modern tree
also, Wis tier list is the one that puts yama/fusou at the same tier with Wash, right?
zenith tundra
unless u consider hood amagi hiryuu to have synergy
elder crane
Yeah, but that team isn't top anymore
real notch
EXACTLY that's why i recommended the idea of having multiple assessments of 1 ship
so it's not a super personalized tierlist like wis
elder crane
I don't think any "good stuff" teams can be considered to be amongst the top right now
zenith tundra
but some people will run things like that
elder crane
Maybe once PR2 is online
zenith tundra
like wasd monarch some people were talking about
elder crane
Hmm, so there's some solid criteria then
Ships that would work in a "good stuff" team?
elder crane
I suppose then some ships would only make sense to be evaluated as part of a mini-group, like WaSD
real notch
ok, so this is why i was also considering... how about a tier ranking from each person who notes the ship?
elder crane
I think a tiny bit of separation might make sense, at least stall vs dmg for vanguard
Though, some teams do mix, hmmm
zenith tundra
wtf is available thing? i thought it was if the ship is possible to get rn not if it's in the server tbh
real notch
yea that's what it is @zenith tundra
dry socket
I feel that multiple tier opinions would make it confusing for many players—keep it concise for the bakas and precise for the casual community
zenith tundra
i still think 2 tiering 1 for specific comps and 1 for outside that comp is right way
elder crane
I still would like some criteria, how much do we want to eval considering syngergies, counters, and such
Aurora/Sendai stand out as ones that work amazingly in very specific scenarios and fall flat elsewhere
Eldridge too
dry socket
As much as I don't like wis' guide on PvE, he does one thing right—add notes on a ship's situational and general uses
zenith tundra
that's exactly why 2 tiering was the way 1 for when she's usable and 1 for when she's not telling sendai is bad outside of this comp
dry socket
Two tiers would definitely be better than one to clear things up and open the general competitive player's mind
real notch
i mean the guidemaker is questionable but
elder crane
So, at most 2 tierings for every ship
One just independently, as part of a random team (say you're looking to add something into a flex spot)
One in the team she would be strongest in
real notch
his guide is pretty useful and well formatted
zenith tundra
that was my intention from the start tbh @elder crane
real notch
i think all the descriptions only show the ships in their best comp
or at least most of them
dry socket
which is a problem
real notch
yea, tho i don't see what maniac would use nagato in a USS or HMS fleet 
zenith tundra
how about 1 description we all agree for a ship that explains tiering and some extra lines based on personal experience?
dry socket
Nagato loses her support capability but retains her d a m a g e
elder crane
Huh, then the initial rankings roughly make sense
Nagato is actually decent independently, only needs a few IJN in fleet to be quite good.
ionic magnet
personally im not a fan of individual tiering cos ships has different roles. just leave notes where a certain ship is useful and where does it fall short. we will disagree a lot on tierings for sure
zenith tundra
i think nagato is t0.5 at best outside of ijn
elder crane
Some madmen in CNJP slapped her in HMS for the lulz when she first came out and were quite shocked to see she did decently
dry socket
She's great as an independent IJN and great with some spice on top
elder crane
t0.5 or t1
dry socket
with IJN
elder crane
hmm, t1
And we need a set of criteria for what each tier ranking means
dry socket
wis' guide does set a good tier system up
zenith tundra
i think a general description telling a ship strong/weak points is good
and from that individual opinions
elder crane
well, the point of such a tiering is for people who don't want to think
so idk if descriptions make much sense
I suppose it helps us writers keep track?
modern tree
I give this ship a gold star
elder crane
cause unless we KeepItSimpleStupid on it, might as well just link to the team comp guide with full descriptions
zenith tundra
i read iwis tiering description for like half of them if not even more
real notch
yea tho we do need to note criteria
because when this goes public people will criticize the guide
for sure lol
vague token
i mean
it's a pvp guide
in a game for casuals
of course they will
"what do you mean my waifu is t3"
xD
"but prinz is OP"
ionic magnet
imagine ignorant people just slapping random tier 1 ships
zenith tundra
so what criteria do we use? damage for backlines and support for vg as a general idea?
real notch
ye so we gotta set criteria to rationalize the tiering
modern tree
I will once again act like a voice of reason and ride my ego into te sunset, but how about instead of tiering them on merit or whatever, tier them on wether they can work outside of their usual comp. t0 works all on it's own with whatever (Amagi). t1 it is a good ship on it's own but performs much better with support (Wash). t2 absolutely requires support to function (QE)
elder crane
Then all would be top tier @balmy torrent
vague token
t0 is solo god, add to anything and it becomes better
t1 is solid, but requires extra help to be really good
t2 is cannot function outside of composition, then rate the comp
maybe?
ionic magnet
yea thats a good start
elder crane
What about t1 that is really good in a comp?
dry socket
Kiro just made it simplified, yep
real notch
lolicon 
elder crane
If 2 comp, just take 1 I think
vague token
i would rate the comps on a separate table/page or w/e
if you're doing ships alone
just do the rating and maybe a quick link
to the comps
with their tiers for the comps noted
or something
xD
elder crane
Hmm, so a rating as you gave, then a link to all comps she is used in
elder crane
second part seems lots of work, but first part seems simple enough to begin with
zenith tundra
@modern tree how is that any different then my tiering? i put t2 on ships like qe that are bad outside of hms and t1 hood that would work in other comps as well. just the criteria wasn't set
elder crane
I think the project can start with the last tiering proposed and add in comps modifications later
@zenith tundra Maybe should have stated your criteria first
zenith tundra
i know that was my fault
elder crane
It's what makes the ratings make sense
I agree, your overall rankings are in the right spirit for this set of criteria
Good base to start with, as far as I can see
real notch
we just need to take zack's ratings and rationalize them
before that, we need to sort out our target audience
if we are targetting newbie PVP players or nonexperienced ones, there's no need to overcomplicate the tiering rating
dry socket
The classic tier list follows the format of
"overall, situational, and bad"
which is literally simplifying Kiro's suggestion
elder crane
We're going with Overall, Somewhat Situational, Very situational I think
No need to list bad in this case, too many to do
dry socket
right
vague token
bad would be after t2 xD
real notch
wait so by that criteria, a fox is T1 and not T0? because they are situational by needing another fox?
ionic magnet
rip vocab
vague token
yeah, and then rate the composition
elder crane
Nah, I'd place that bar a bit higher
If you had to choose 1 ship for a comp, it'd be a T0 ship
zenith tundra
i think the only ship rn that would be close to t0 solo would be amagi
vague token
ykk is definitely t0 and same with juneau
zenith tundra
for backlines
ionic magnet
yea those 3
vague token
the universal god tiers
elder crane
Yep, if you have a flex slot, as of currently, Amagi is pretty much the only choice if you're not already running her (and have her, ofc)
so by that criteria, she's the only T0 main
real notch
wait, and then enterprise and tirpitz are T0?
i think this might cause some misunderstandings
ionic magnet
why ent and tirpitz?
elder crane
Enty is T1 for sure if Amagi-levels is what is needed for T0
Tirp, idk if she makes it
zenith tundra
i think tirp require bad comps to be good
ionic magnet
tirp is a big no cos she cant have another BB in team
elder crane
Just 2 good CV/BBV, and we have a clearly subpar but barely usable comp, I think
zenith tundra
hyuuga tirp enty?
real notch
see now people might actually make tirp ent hiryuu comps because all 3 are good "individually"
elder crane
It sounds like it can work on offense, with great difficulty
vague token
except imo enty is weaker than sara kai atm
zenith tundra
enty has a great plus imo. her high luck is best yukikaze counter
ionic magnet
thats the problem with tiering individual ships
elder crane
Nah enty just isn't universally good enough anymore
vague token
i mean, compared to the average carrier it's only 3% hit rate
lament lichen
dont bother tiering ships by themselves
ionic magnet
people will start to pair up random t1 ships then come back crying
elder crane
T0= universally good
vague token
if they have 60 luck or so
lament lichen
just tier teams
vague token
yeah but we dont want to scare people away
with strict comps
so it's good to analyze ships separately for people
elder crane
Actually, just 3XT1 ship from the proposed listing will probably be good enough given target audience
vague token
who dont want meta or bust
lament lichen
you probably can have replacements for some units that can be swapped out
elder crane
Like, you're not expecting these people to make AoTN
real notch
shouldn't our goal be to help them make AOTN 
vague token
i would figure the goal is to make it easier for them to make their own decisions
lament lichen
the goal is to make more rushers 
vague token
not to just get a rank
elder crane
T0/T1/T2 is good enough
T0 is god tier, run this if you have room
T1 is very strong, add if you want, may be amazing situationally
T2 is situational-only, but worth adding to list due to situational usage
vague token
otherwise you might as well just give them the comps only
and not bother with any other ships outside of meta
like, we have to believe that giving them information
will help them make their own judgements
aka they have a brain at the minimum
xD
zenith tundra
i think 1st page should make it clear for comps tbh
vague token
like we dont have to include the obviously silly ships
but having a solo analysis of ships that have an interesting tool is fine
elder crane
Yeah, I think it makes sense to make the list pretty short
real notch
ye, so giving them info on synergies is gooddd
vague token
like id include ark royal
elder crane
Or eld, even though she is very off-meta
vague token
because she has an interesting tool and it's up to players to decide whether the tool is useful or not
real notch
i guess if they don't read the description for their synergies and just look at the ranking... that's their fault i suppose
lament lichen
oh yeah did you guys even fight any nakaga teams
lament lichen
only fought 2 but
vague token
was getting blown up a bit
zenith tundra
i can't find a thing with 4 behind tbh
vague token
but still doable
elder crane
NamagiH is bulldozing everything for me
So far, only a mirror has made me reset
I'm at 110 full max aside from 170 aff on Nagato
vague token
o.O
elder crane
I'm developing Sheff, to investigate her usage over Bel right now
vague token
i still need a ton of skill books for sheffield and my nagato has level 7 barrage
elder crane
Oh, on that topic, I confirmed CN info on HP multiplier in PvP
The HP multiplier in PvP scales with level, in case y'all didn't know
vague token
o.O
real notch
ye, i'm also developing sheff to replace belfast
just from the numbers sheff should be superior
zenith tundra
that's interesting
vague token
so you get more hp when you have more hp?
real notch
as long as it's not foxes
elder crane
I have sheff at higher HP than Jun, but at 100 not 110, and her protection doesn't cover Jun
vague token
yikes
vague token
no wonder 120 changes bulk so much then
because you're getting even more hp
than what it says
lament lichen
oh yeah
lament lichen
edin has like 27k eHP with sheff and qe i think
vague token
i wonder if my nagato was getting sheffield shielded at some points lol
it is all ships right? xD
zenith tundra
only vg ships
elder crane
http://wiki.joyme.com/blhx/各类计算公式#.E6.BC.94.E4.B9.A0.E7.9B.B8.E5.85.B3
For source on info
elder crane
2.1X at lv 100, 2.34X at lv 120
vague token
wow 24%
elder crane
I haven't seen it posted anywhere in English
Which is why I was a bit skeptical to begin with
now I have confirmation
zenith tundra
i have lvl 110 sheffield and she has more hp then lvl 100 erebus
elder crane
But works in PvE
See: blue glow (and lack of it) around Juneau
No info on how they tested/datamined afaik, so take the actual numbers on wiki with a grain of salt imo
zenith tundra
it works on backline too
elder crane
Do you have Erebus HP boosted above Sheff's? (if not, can you try that?)
See if it still activates if HP is only a bit larger
zenith tundra
erebus has 3035 default
elder crane
Wiki Says it's .9+0.012*level
zenith tundra
sheffield 3593
vague token
oh ok
elder crane
Okay, can you adjust equip so that Erebus above Sheff's HP by a bit, and see if it still works
vague token
i mean most backlines are gonna be above sheff so xD
real notch
ah interesting
elder crane
Great to have some 2nd party confirmation, with the opposite situation to boot, with Sheff at lower HP
real notch
i suppose with sheffield release it's a bit easier to see the HP multipliers in PVP
zenith tundra
3035+583
real notch
that's definitely interesting
zenith tundra
still works
elder crane
Healers could also be used to test, since they are fixed %
damn, why didn't I think of that earlier
zenith tundra
i can try akashi
vague token
oh no
elder crane
I just happened upon it today with Sheff, which is why I noticed
zenith tundra
can u calculate pvp hp for sheffield with 3593 hp and see what hp i would need on erebus to see if it deactivates the skill
or at least tell me the formula
i can do it myself
real notch
i see
elder crane
Wait a sec that's the wrong way around, derp
elder crane
3800
vague token
the damage buff from skills is additive to the penalties
so you get more out of multipliers than you'd expect
oops
tried to copy paste it failed
elder crane
Basically +20% dmg is actually +25% in PvP
CN wiki has javascript preventing copying
elder crane
for whatever weird reason
vague token
ah
but yeah that line
so since there's a global damage penalty
but then you ADD your boost
you get MORE than what you'd expect
no wonder those 2x procs are scary
elder crane
Also what we call the 20% dmg diff between off/def isn't exactly that
zenith tundra
this is 3801
elder crane
Look at the damage reduction column
zenith tundra
should it work?
vague token
no wonder centaur is so strong too
zenith tundra
doesn't
vague token
she gets half the penalty
to her damage
lol
while retaining 3 plane slots and cv tier stats
is this balance?
xD
vague token
uh
real notch
shite
vague token
it's
zenith tundra
this is 3795
vague token
it's not 3x
elder crane
2.25 actually, I think for enty/Sodak
zenith tundra
so 3795 works 3801 doesn't
vague token
but yeah cvl only has a 10% penalty kek
elder crane
Just as expected!
Oh and CL gets buff to dmg
Explains why CL torps seems to be more powerful than expected
zenith tundra
i'm not sure if i can find any closer values tbh
elder crane
And DDs get mad dred
vague token
yeah no wonder jintsuu is busted at 100 lol
you get 15% on top of her crit boost
but then as the hp boost kicks in
CA gets no penalty
so you just run around with huge hp and no damage loss
elder crane
Also explains why CA seem so shite at 100
Aside from bad eva stat, lower dred %
vague token
nope
elder crane
Yep!
vague token
it's way more complicated
and damage adjustments are by ship class
cvl gets a lower penalty, cls get a 15% boost
xD
real notch
elder crane
Yep
Statements are near-identical though
Off does 25% more dmg than def, approx
ornate river
stone tablets
vague token
xD
elder crane
I saw it back when I was on CN
real notch
ah but then considering planes and AA were just as unknown for like 4 months... it makes sense why this info is still unknown
vague token
although the translation is kinda silly in some spots
All units on the offensive side are reduced by 20%
xD
elder crane
idk, tbh I though it was common knowledge
vague token
yeah
elder crane
I trawl the CN/JP wikis regularly
elder crane
Remember though that evarate formula goes eva/(eva+enemyhit)-0.1 though
so it just brings it to eva/(eva+enemyhit)-0.05
vague token
yeah
elder crane
aka eva scaling is still bad at high eva
elder crane
though ykkz makes it i think, to having good scaling with eva
vague token
god this is needlessly complicated lol
elder crane
at least vs some ships with low luck
real notch
yea this is insanely complicated
elder crane
and until -evarate debuffs
real notch
next step is to derive some basic rule of thumbs from this data and just memorize those going forward
elder crane
Aka basically not much changes actually
vague token
yeah
elder crane
I've been working with this info, and honestly not a big diff
lots of tiny changes, but not a big deal
real notch
well forsure we need to change the things we've been telling
because it's not technically that
elder crane
Biggest deal is the HP scaling with level
real notch
with HP scaling and dmg reduction
and then class-specific buffs
overall dmg penalty
that's a pretty big difference from just saying
20% dmg buff, 2x HP
vague token
the hp is a huge one
kinda want to meme with an aggro cvl now
but that's literally just centaur
elder crane
I've always said it correctly mysefl
It's why I predicted that WaSDA would wall Amkaga at lv110 when it failed to at 100
vague token
no wonder she's busted
you know, maybe independence might be a good attacker cvl for eagle then
wait what are even eagle torp bombers
lol
eww tbf avenger
caps out at purple
i guess she'd be ok with cuda since she has 1.5 already
it'd only be like 10% more with an eagle torp
elder crane
We get the event Eagle bomber when Indep arrives, no?
elder crane
vague token
oh wait independence aviation is still too low
yeah centaur is just busted
421 aviation at 120, lower penalty to damage lol
and dat yuge hp
yikes
elder crane
Basically a nerfed barra for first strike, but becomes a buffed barra at 2nd and onwards strikes
vague token
ah
yeah that wouldnt help unless the independence skills are really strong
because centaur's aviation and 3 planes >_>
elder crane
Yeah, VT-8 Squad is more meant for PvE anti-boss
vague token
like it's literally impossible for anything to beat out centaur lol
elder crane
since first airstrike in PvE isn't too important, but is super important in PvP
vague token
besides hiryuu memes, centaur is the strongest carrier basically unless you want like a tank or something weird
xD
elder crane
Also works with Shangri-La skill, or so I hear
Her bonus airstrike activates VT-8 Skill
vague token
ah
maybe hiryuu?
final counter should proc it then
theoretically
CHECK THE CODE
oh sorry that's gw2
xD
real notch
hmm, so georgia for example, with 20% increased dmg against BB/BC etc
is 16% on defense?
because of 20% multiplicative dmg reduction buff?
vague token
uh
i think it's
so defender BB does .2 less
attacker BB takes
.2 less
so that's 64% damage
add .2?
real notch
are these buffs applied at the beginning or at the end?
vague token
he said defender
oh yeah that is it
so relative to pve you just do 20% less
as a defender
except for CL xD
top kek CL balance
real notch
ahh i see
real notch
yea i suppose for georgia, her dmg buff is applied end-of-formula
so it feeds into attacker protection and her dmg comes out 80%
right?
because BBs are -20% dmg
vague token
just pretend it's an ammo buff
real notch
additive?
vague token
like the translation says
vague token
it's easier to think about it all
if you treat damage adjustment as ammo
and then after all that
multiply by the reduction
for like thinking about it
maybe i should just swap to a dps CL instead of a CA
based on these rules lol
GUN CLS
DAMAGE BOOSTO
since we dont have the full hp boost
for CA yet
or maybe i should swap Ranger in
xD
jk
to be fair
the game tells us literally nothing
so it's more like guesstimates
lament lichen
well 20% atk bonus isnt that bad of a guess in the first place
real notch
yea no this is actually a big difference lol
real notch
like yesterday, when limonada came in and asked why mogami is not good
real notch
a good answer would be "CAs in general are made inefficient due to dmg reduction"
vague token
but due to the Hit Point scaling properties
they will phase in at 120
xD
where hp differences are more pronounced
due to the increasing multiplier
glass cas still trash
because there's no flat bonus
yeah
real notch
eugen time?
vague token
yep
eugen still doesnt do damage
saint louis is tank and does damage
so
=/
wouldnt roon be tankier?
xD
lament lichen
eugen can tank those oxytorp teams lul
vague token
lol
actually the relative damage reduction buff for CA defense
isnt that bad too
like it's 15%
vs CL 20%
vague token
so CAs are actually not bad as the hp goes up
real notch
wait what
real notch
CL receives 20% dmg reduction, CAs receive 15%
vague token
i should just run montpelier
real notch
CAs receives 5% more dmg relative to CLs
real notch
ok w.e i meant like out of 100%
so basically CAs get the short stick
in terms of class buffs
vague token
yeah until hp scaling makes up the difference
since the beefiest CL caps out at like
real notch
CVLs have some next level buffs lol
vague token
dds dont have enough hp to multiply
is the problem
cvls get amazing buffs until you realize centaur is the only good cvl
is the problem
i just checked the sorted cvl by stats list
it's pretty pathetic how weak they are
except centaur
who is busted tier
until kitakaze
2.6k hp
xD
only rivaled by z46 lol
yeah
yikes xD
and a good gun skill
unlike z46
herp derp ap damage
yeah but that doesnt overcome Normal Ammo
1.15 global damage is great for kitakaze
unlike black heart
xD
neptunia retros when yostar
CH is making you a game
give us NEXT form
literally black heart skill
xD
still upset niimi gets rekt by her
sure she has 1.7 gun efficiency
who cares
xD
whelp time to find a dps CL to replace minne with
until 120
na it'd be sheff/belfast/ykk
if anything
wait
maybe st lewdis
although sheff/mont/ykk doesnt sound bad
as long as you arent against foxes
since you dont have to smoke
columbia as an option to boost flagship durability
might not be bad
basically pick a clevebro class ship
it's probably ok
at the very minimum
or wait, no retro mogami
true next level
sadly you wont get MGM+1
it's locked to modernization
so maybe not
guess i should farm for columbia now
ugh 11-4 farming
well
today has been enlightening
xD
elder crane
Glad to share what I know!
shy hazel
@zenith tundra i tiered most ships in individual page but everyone alrdy changed some tiers
just change whatever but ask others too for opinions
zenith tundra
where is the new tiering?
shy hazel
what new tiering 
zenith tundra
i tiered most ships in individual page but everyone alrdy changed some tiers -> don't understand this then
we talked earlier about changing the tiering to include both comps tiering and solo performance
i thought u actually did that
elder crane
Yo, I seem to have lost the sheet, dm me link?
zenith tundra
shy hazel
i tiered it like 3 days ago
some ppl alrdy chnged it
i think
i mean some not all of it
zenith tundra
ok i thought u did it recently
zenith tundra
i agree
zenith tundra
Ship tiering is based on a ship ability to perform in any comp and for most relevant comp. If one or the other misses it means that said ship can be used in any comps or only in specific comps.
how does this sound?
vague token
sounds good
ionic magnet
ok so nagato should be tier 1 only yea?
elder crane
1, 0 with IJN, probably, yep
ionic magnet
yea
red nexus
Will nagato be useful in the future?
elder crane
Amagi synergy should be IJN and with lines that value tankiness, imo
vague token
nagato + amagi = t0 core
elder crane
Next major meta shift after that, may be with PR2
vague token
nagato+amagi+hiryuu kai best core until ws kai
elder crane
Still a good core after too
red nexus
Wait warspite retro will break the meta?
elder crane
Yep, super strong individual ship
vague token
but also the most liberating
red nexus
Nice, i have WS lv 100 laying around
elder crane
So breaks up established teams, giving freedon
red nexus
And i realky like her
shy hazel
technically
elder crane
Once PR2 comes and is maxed, I expect those will further shake things up
vague token
oh god fdg with 2.32 times hp
shy hazel
hms should be able to compete before ws kai with double pr
vague token
lol
shy hazel
and centaur
elder crane
Good chance that Main fleet direct synergies won't be used anymore after PR2 maxed
elder crane
FdG with that tankiness and pretty good damage (Roon vibes, anyone?)
And Georgia with the nuking, potentially
vague token
oh i just realized that it's no wonder foxes barely do damage once one sinks
or wait, they boost aviation
not damage
not quite the same
ionic magnet
btw i changed kawakaze to tier 2 and sirius to t2 (t1 when with cv/cvls)
(though I only just asked)
vague token
xD
zenith tundra
u have to ask sirrequiem for permission
i want to include a general description of strengths and weaknesses of ships. where should it be placed
should just place it before player descriptions or somewhere else
ionic magnet
we can insert a new column between the name of the ship and the notes
should be better if we put the general pros/cons first before the "detailed" explanations
elder crane
For date, did you guys try the =NOW() function
ionic magnet
might need to edit the current descriptions then
elder crane
Apparently that should immediately show the current date
Oh wait, =TODAY() is better probably
ionic magnet
dont think we'll be updating it daily tho
elder crane
I think it only updates if you run the cell? not sure
zenith tundra
is that ok in the vg tab?
ionic magnet
prolly every season
elder crane
though that risks someone updating accidentally with roll-back difficult, maybe not
zenith tundra
before i continue any objection for the new format?
(the one in the VG ship analysis)
ionic magnet
can we include the link to wiki page per ship
and hmm solo/comp tiering and best comp looks redundant to me
ionic magnet
hmm anything else we should put in first column?
zenith tundra
can't think of anything
also i don't think sirius is usable outside of cv comps
that is why i put a / on tiering
zenith tundra
?
ionic magnet
i mean putting tier 3 is better than not ranking her at all
might cause some confusion
zenith tundra
read the 1st line
ionic magnet
but she isnt a bad ship
real notch
If people end up asking too much, we'll add the ship in the page
ionic magnet
shes just situational hence tier 3 without cvs
zenith tundra
i think putting n/a to discourage ppl from running her without cv
ionic magnet
i think t3 is more discouraging than n/a
zenith tundra
ok so t3 it is
vague token
i mean sirius is still a decent gunner with just 1 cv
since she has good FP
and a dd gun
and 15% damage boost
ionic magnet
hmm so lets settle with t2 (t1 when with cv/cvl)?
vague token
actually now that i think about it
i should try sheff/sirius/ykk
to prolong her gun time
and boost sara damage
since i have to farm up mont and columbia still
vague token
t3 would only be honorable mention
and N/A would be lol no
t3 would be like poi compared to ayaya
comparable but worse
just imo
up to you guys
lol
zenith tundra
my problem is exactly that i wouldn't pick sirius without cv in any case. guns are unreliable in dmg and hoping for her barrage to actually hit something i'd rather have jintsuu and hope torpedo land
ionic magnet
my only issue with N/A is it might confuse some people
so maybe put somewhere what it means
zenith tundra
there will be tiering explanations
vague token
xD
ionic magnet
aight N/A then
vague token
i mean you should have at least 1 cv for sirius
ionic magnet
t3 just sounds so harsh lul
vague token
no one is saying use 0 cv
naturally sara is the best solo cv for sirius
as she scales even harder with the aviation boost compared to others
since she can apply it so often
xD
zenith tundra
i don't think i should do the tiering description
mostly because idk what to write
zenith tundra
i would've miss another 3
lament lichen
sandbag harder
elder crane
I've already missed 4, on the very first day
Am slowly catching up, I think, hopefully
elder crane
The hecc does "AVAILABLE?" mean
zenith tundra
idk i changed that to availability and specify where u can get the ship
elder crane
Why is Enty "no" then
zenith tundra
someone memeing i guess
elder crane
So, plan is also to add where to get ship in there?
zenith tundra
i don't see a problem with doing that unless we just leave it to wiki page
shy hazel
just link
vague token
i mean it cant be hard to put Where to Acquire as a section
and then do like
Drop
Event
Build
xD
instead of a hyperlink
zenith tundra
i think writing a line for each ship or a link to wiki event shouldn't be a problem but not sure if that useful
vague token
i mean just as quick reference
if they need more info they can check wiki on their own
anyways
real notch
wow, just made the reset by 3 seconds
i also like to live dangerously
btw @zenith tundra is that new tab "VG Ships Analysis" the replacement tab?
if so i like it, it's a lot more detailed so it will require more time to make tho
zenith tundra
idk i was trying format and maybe separate vg from backlines
we can also have different tiering criteria
real notch
yep, i always had problems with the organization of the original tab
elder crane
Hmm, I dunno about the tiering on Foxes, should it not be "with [other fox] and Nagato/Amagi"?
real notch
i've been thinking what's a way that the table can auto-organize itself to be alphabetical order
zenith tundra
i'm not good with that stuff tbh. if u want to change anything and make it easier go ahead
elder crane
After, let's get the tops in first
zenith tundra
i can just complete lines after the format has been set
elder crane
Okay, for foxes, is it better as:
T0 with [other fox] and Nagato
or,
T0 with [other fox] and Nagato or Amagi
I'm pretty sure just a fox pair doesn't get T0 rating
real notch
well
as long as nakaga is t0 in our list
we can assume twinfox by themselves can be t0
it mean, it isn't any less T1 than it is T0
zenith tundra
akagi
t0 with kaga and nagato/amagi
vague token
eh, akaga/hood is way less threatening
.5 at best without nagato or amagi
or the ever meme akaga/e
elder crane
So, not just "T0 with [other fox]", overall?
vague token
at least to me
elder crane
Cause we have HMS at T1
zenith tundra
2 foxes aren't t0
elder crane
So if Akaga without mention of Namagi is T0....
I'll start with listing both of namagi
real notch
i mean when we say twinfox is t0 that doesn't mean twinfox + unicorn is t0
real notch
hmmm...
real notch
i am thinking of it from like, opportunity cost perspective
vague token
like even with a solid solo performer, twin fox is just ok
real notch
can twinfox be replaced by another 2 ships that are objectively better?
vague token
aka "i missed the events"
real notch
and still be in top meta?