pvp

[halcyon hill]

Soo how strong do you guys think the chink trio is gonna be?

[elder crane]

Great in PvE, not really useful in PvP

They'll be decent PvP I guess, but not amongst the top

[halcyon hill]

Hard to take that Aurora spot huh

[elder crane]

Their toolkit isn't that good in PvP, and Aurora hard counters them

Their main draw is the evasion stacking they can do: they consistently hit the evasion rate cap in PvE

But Yat Sen remains vulnerable, which is an issue in PvP, and evasion mech. means they can't hit cap here, and Aurora just wrecks them

[modern tree]

Boats made out of paper with lots of evasion fold like paper when you take the evasion away and we happen to have Aurora with Sirius on the way so enjoy them in pve and leave it at that

[halcyon hill]

I see, Aurora is just stupid strong on pvp

[elder crane]

Vs nonaurora teams , they're okay, but then their lack of utility still holds them back

[halcyon hill]

I guess the only way to make Aurora kind of useless is to run some sort of triple CA and just tank through everything

The only issue with triple CA is that Portland kai is probably the only decent one rn

[modern tree]

While aurora reduces your frontline HP by roughly 33%, which is a lot, it's not really anything to lose your head over when facing her. It's just a probelm when your HP even post retro is over a thousand less than other CLs in case of Ping and Ning, and about HALF of HP of other CLs in case of Yat Sen. Seriously, check it out, she has like 1600 hp at lvl 100

[halcyon hill]

Yeah, i guess it is to sort of compensate for the damage reduccion buff

She doesnt even reach 1900 base hp at lvl 120 wowee

[modern tree]

she's really powerful when she gets to dodge things and you can manually keep her out of harms way, its not really a thing in pvp tho

you just eat bombs

if she fails to dodge one BB shell that sets her on fire shes dead

[halcyon hill]

Amakaga is just gonna blast them right off the bat

Maybe if you have doble +10 toolkit you can survive tho

[modern tree]

Feel free to try it, trying is free.

[real notch]

Btw is chink an offensive word?

[velvet fossil]

As a chink i still find it a funny word but theres always the ones who dont have the same humor

[elder crane]

The aurora thing is not a fixed number, to be exact, since it reduces evasion rate.
For ships like other CLs, that have base ~40% evasion rate in PvP, 20% reduction (to 20%) is ~25% eHP loss, for DDs that often have base evasion rates of 60% or higher, it can reach 30+% eHP loss, and for Ning/Ping who rely on skill to boost evasion rate to 70+%, it gets close to 50% eHP loss

Which also shows why they aren't great in PvP, in PvE they easily hit the 90% evasion rate cap, in PvP they only reach 70-80%, which means even before aurora, their eHP has been cut by a factor of 2-3 relative to PvE performance

[ionic magnet]

are those numbers accurate or just an estimate

i might be underestimating aurora all this time

[elder crane]

Mostly accurate
You can calculate, based the formula approximations we have
Ship "hit" stat range from ~80 (CVs) to ~150 (CL/DDs),
Evasion rate, ignoring lv (since all lv 100) and luck (roughly equal lucks), is eva/(eva+hit)

upper cap of evasion rate is 90%

your typical CL has 80 or so evasion, so it's 40% vs a 120 hit stat ship

[ivory vine]

i dont think you can generalize luck as roughly equal

[real notch]

luck varies depending on ship

[ivory vine]

and it varies a lot

[elder crane]

ship luck difference is at most like 40 luck in most cases, which iirc is either 4% or 0.4% eva rate difference

[ivory vine]

ship luck is like

0 - 100

[elder crane]

yeah, but most ships are in the 50-70 range

plus, the PvP viable ships mostly have >50 luck

and only a few have above 90

okay, change is (luck diff)/1000 fractional, so 40 luck is 4%

[real notch]

btw from what i know luck isn't a factor in calculation it's evasion

luck influences evasion

[elder crane]

https://azurlane.koumakan.jp/Combat#Evasion_and_Accuracy
which iirc matches CN wiki formula

And a list of ship luck
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQ_lpnWPsy_2H-aUSHXSZ8dERR8HREOY_owOVmcxDPp-sRbPWhfFyIk6ba8s3Uck0Y1G2tSfI3RIkGz/pubhtml

[real notch]

hmm

beware that table might be level 120

double check on that

[elder crane]

Luck doesn't change with lv iirc
And in any case, every luck list I know of is sourced from the same CN dataminer

[real notch]

luck is related to evasion but i'm 100% sure evasion changes with level

wait what formula are you using luck for in anyways

[elder crane]

yep, I gave a luck table, not evasion table though

I linked it in the wiki

[real notch]

oo ic

[elder crane]

oh whoops, I forgot the 0.1, my numbers are a bit off (that teaches me, to do this off the top of my head ) but roughly they hold

plus, it really depends on what you assume will be shooting at you

CVs have about 80 hit, BBs with +hit aux have about 100-120, frontliners have about base 150 or so, plus minor adjustments from luck

so any raw number for evasion rate in PvP will be an approximation, based on some sort of mix of incoming damage source that the calculating person chose to use

[real notch]

CVs have more like around 90

enterprise akagi and kaga are 107, 90, 90 respectively

but again i think that's with level 120

[elder crane]

Do we know if that chart is lv 100 or 120? (I have the same numbers so assuming same chart)

[real notch]

likewise with 120 +hit aux depends if it's 1 or 2 SGs

[elder crane]

oh lol, yep

[real notch]

the chart you are using is definitely 120

[elder crane]

yep, which is why I said about 100-120
but some run no +hit, some also run FCR which gives more +hit

it's only CVs that are absolutely consistent (no +hit equip), and vanguard that are mostly consistent (+hit not BiS)

[real notch]

you can hit 90 something with 1 SG on BBs at level 100

assuming you drop 5-10 hit from the level 120 values

[elder crane]

well, to clarify, since hit varies across all different damage sources, I choose not to do more exact calculations, since it mis-represents the certainty we have on the numbers

approximations give close enough values unless you start breaking down damage sources more exactly

[real notch]

yea it's just the approximations just need to be noted for level 100s

i think hit aux is more valuable at level 100 than level 120

especially with BBs with low base EVA

[elder crane]

well, all +stat aux are as such

no raw stat iirc doesn't have diminishing returns on a +flat value addition

[real notch]

no it's cus we already have most endgame EVA gear

[elder crane]

Wait, there is not a single piece of +stat equipment that doesn't lose effectiveness from 100->120
or are you saying +hit suffers more, or we get better options for the other +stat equip?

[real notch]

i think i did a calc a while back, you need something like 140 hit to get 85% of shots landed on a 48 EVA BB

which is basically saying you need 2 SGs to consistently land on a USS BB

yea i think it depends on where u are on the curve of diminishing returns

cus BBs get so much value from 100-120 on the EVA (low end of curve)

as opposed to hit

at least that's how i thought of it in my head

[elder crane]

the higher the eva stat of target, the more valuable +hit becomes iirc, based on what I remember from eHP calcs
the reason why it isn't run on CN anymore is because the +% buffs from the shell auxs scale much better (since it's +% on derived stat [even better than +% raw stat] instead of +flat value)

[real notch]

yep, if the enemy EVA is too low then you'll get diminishing returns per hit you add on

which in reality means 1 SG instead of 2 SGs

[odd schooner]

Done testing with friend about the jp/cn boiler tactics with current EN composition

[elder crane]

Helps for shooting down vanguard ships though

[odd schooner]

Turns out every torpedo that should not reach backlime are taken by gotta go fast vanguard

[real notch]

i had this tested with dunk before about over-statting into hit

[odd schooner]

Always ends up 2 dying lmao

[elder crane]

plus I think CN meta is all shells and no FCR/SG

[real notch]

yea, CN is shells/SG atm

but also don't forget badge

[odd schooner]

And rudder

[real notch]

badge is common in BBs here in EN as well

[elder crane]

yep, depending if people want damage or survivability

it's rudder/tank on CVs too iirc

[real notch]

the (silly) conclusion we arrived at was

because SG gives both HIT and EVA

whoever stacks more SGs than the other has an advantage

[elder crane]

It's the best we have for EN right now, none of the other non-restricted aux are nearly as good

[real notch]

because with 35 acc you'll hit like 85-90% hitrate against no SG

[odd schooner]

Ah regarding hit and Eva

[real notch]

but if enemy runs 2 SGs

[odd schooner]

It's 1:1

[real notch]

you'll drop to 80% hit

[elder crane]

like are you going to use camo, or purple FCR

[real notch]

but if YOU run 2 SGs

you'll get 70 hit

and land 90-95% of your shells against a no-SG BB

also dodge 25-30% of enemy shells

so basically whoever uses more SGs wins

[shy hazel]

so is full roc yatsen ningping

can even compete with ijn pvp

[elder crane]

well, that's true to some degree cause our other options suck for BB aux

[shy hazel]

👀

[elder crane]

no, not at all

[shy hazel]

thought so

3 cls 👀

[elder crane]

the way mechanics interact means that even before aurora, ROC frontline isn't great in PvP

[real notch]

also @odd schooner so basically speed = torp magnetic?

[odd schooner]

Ye

Like every time

[elder crane]

they lose something like somewhere between 50-75% eHP compared to their PvE performance, relative to other ships

[odd schooner]

7/10 matches

The other 3 being my front extends a bit to hit backline

[elder crane]

then aurora further kicks in their teeth for about another 40% or so eHP loss

[odd schooner]

1800 hp yat sen

[elder crane]

yeah, and that's before considering how much more vulnerable Yat sen is in PvP

[real notch]

yat sen is a fishing boat

[shy hazel]

[odd schooner]

Jesus Yamato

[shy hazel]

dunno someone keep telling me

roc is good in pvp

[elder crane]

[odd schooner]

@shy hazel tell them aurora exists

[shy hazel]

ya i literally told them that

[ivory vine]

but aurora doesnt exist

[shy hazel]

eat my jitsu aurora foxes and well see

[ivory vine]

sendai when

[odd schooner]

Even 370 eva ship dies in a few torp

cause i tried using badge on fortune

[shy hazel]

pvp best en meme still juneau

[odd schooner]

Juneau is staple in almost every comp

On each server

[shy hazel]

need ykkz so can dump this dumb eldridge loli

🔪

[idle python]

Make a backline ship that disables healing

[odd schooner]

Oh no

[idle python]

And make it ijn because why not

[odd schooner]

Yostar is reading this

We all know who's fault jesus gonna be booted out in the future

[shy hazel]

ilike using double bb bc for now

theb jesus dies

make hp great again

if im in avrora

top 10 rn with all my pvp charges used

will i get to gensui

👀

for some reason since rear admiral

i only get 2 or 3 bonuses per day

[elder crane]

You can get it with no bonuses, you just need to rush more when the time comes

[shy hazel]

imposiburu

last round i no lose but ppl on top is still like

30 bonus points above me

[lone pendant]

lo

[elder crane]

In the end, yes, but usually if you rush matches after resets, you can cheese out higher ranks, including gensui

[lofty smelt]

^ have done that on seasons where I missed matches

Can confirm

Also I thought I was sitting on a lot of points. 5 matches left but still behind number 1 even if I use them. I hope they don't have any spares.

[pastel forge]

dw, almost certainly there are people out there with even more points waiting

[lofty smelt]

I know, that's what worries me

I thought I was learning to sandbag properly, guess not.

[elder crane]

If you are short pts, don't overcommit on earlier rushes, the later rushes are easier (also the midnight rushes are easier)

[odd schooner]

@shy hazel gotta go fast next time

That's the reason you should still raise the fastest pvp fleet in case bad things happen

[hybrid tendon]

these fucker death squad is beating me

with aya jint aurora

then I decided to release my prinz

its actually an advantage having 3x HP more than them

who would have thought

my mirror aya jint aurora lose to their every match

also atago's burn skill against light crruiserino?

BOI

[runic iron]

is the Gold BTD-1 Destroyer the best dive bomber rn

[odd schooner]

It's the sb2c helldiver

Purple

Heavier bomb bigger radius more consistency

[sharp obsidian]

@lofty smelt , hey there fellow Lexington buddy! 😄

[lofty smelt]

[supple stratus]

MY Cancer CANT BE THIS CUTE

[odd schooner]

This season probably had the most reset without gaining any +1s

4th reset 0 gain

[vague token]

oof

[modern tree]

It seems that people are either getting smsrter or lazier. I am not getting many extras but somehow I am still roughly 20 points ahead from current nr1 spot so probably everyone is getting bad luck

[hot creek]

its been the opposite for me. for the first time ever I got a +12 and not only that I got it another two more times.

but i lost a match so I'm not expecting to hit #1 again

[modern tree]

But have you gotten 11 with your 12, cuz getting just 2 extra per reset is average

[hot creek]

I have.

how many points are you at rn? 1606 for me and 10/10 charges

[modern tree]

I am at 1605. How bizarre for you to always be like a charge ahead whenever you ask

I don't quite get it considering you are hardly ahead of me comes season end

[hot creek]

just lucky I guess.

[modern tree]

I am still getting top 3, watch me

Wonder what I could do in a decent time zone

[sharp obsidian]

What is the point of getting ranks? Don't we just need to hit Admiral of the Fleet once?

[hot creek]

No point after you've collected the extra merits from AoTN.

We're just tryhards who're addicted to the high of the leaderboards. (pun intended)

[coral wren]

Do you check ranks every hour? I rarely can get more than one +11/12? it's usually before the reset and then it's just four times +10

[ivory vine]

i wouldve got 2 +13 today in a reset

but i uh

lost a match cuz i tabbed out

[coral wren]

And for some reason untill you reach a certain rank you will be getting low lvl enemies

not even a reset helps you

[hot creek]

I'm always near a computer or phone so I check every 20-60 minutes. Sometimes less if it's just after reset.

also +13 is like...impossible, unless you've been sleeping on your charges lol.

[odd schooner]

I think ppl on avrora are focusing more on going hq lvl 100

[sharp obsidian]

Hmm... You guys are intense lol.

[ivory vine]

i was at 10 left

but yeah i missed 4 matches

[sharp obsidian]

I usually just grab AoTN then shift to maximize Merit Point gain rather than Rank Points

[ivory vine]

including the loss mentioned as missed

[modern tree]

I find pvp more fun and varied than farming for Radford to get my collection percentage to 95.

Can't wait for harder pve content

For now I have memes

[hot creek]

I didn't bother going for collection because I started this game after the first event passed. Missed out on PoW , Vampy.

[coral wren]

Same here

[hot creek]

Which caused me to skip Kalk because I already rolled all the other FW ships and didn't want to bother

[ivory vine]

you can get them from build but

i dont care about collection either

[hot creek]

and now PoW and Vampy are in the normal pool so rip me

[ivory vine]

i missed dland anyway

she didnt drop in like 60k event points or something

so fuq it

[hot creek]

man, i must've gotten like 20 of those farming for stupid mag torps which I whole heartedly regret doing

[ivory vine]

i got z46 from farming

but i got like no bp anyway

[hot creek]

everyone around me complaining about not dropping Duetchland and im like, oh look, another 4 medals.

[dull hollow]

wow jp is fucking pepega

ive been emptying my battles without any optimization and fighting ppl below my rank

still hit top 10

[odd schooner]

@livid fractal

[livid fractal]

Might take a while for me to move

[coral wren]

[dull hollow]

amagi without fcr effect

[shy hazel]

im so far behind bonuses

cant really rush aft reset cos at work and sleeping at all damn resets

[hybrid tendon]

Lul

All resets?

Are you a cat

[shy hazel]

yup all resets

japanese company

go work early leave late

sleep at home

[hybrid tendon]

Thats 24 hours of sleep per day

I just slack off and play shit at work

[shy hazel]

prolly get demoted or slapped by boss if gensui rush at reset

[hybrid tendon]

Genaui rush is always on sat

Or sun

[ivory vine]

getting slapped for free merits

ez worth

[shy hazel]

sunday is problem

too far behind points alrdy

sat mmm

well see

everyone is shikikan now

shikikan of the fleet in like what

two days

[odd schooner]

Always lookout for first 4 minutes per reset

[shy hazel]

before reset?

tips for bonus points pls

i can beat any teams

[dull hollow]

same tips as always

sit on 4 battles

reboot game every 1-2 hours

see if other guy

[shy hazel]

ofc u can,always beat mine too

[dull hollow]

improves

ranking in pvp so stupid

much more fun to just fight people for power

but if u wanna get that gensui go for it

[shy hazel]

so every2 hours

[ivory vine]

i just want merits for purins

but rank up merits are nice and im already doing fuck all most of the resets

[shy hazel]

i just want the rank

i never got it before

yet

reaetting for bonus points so tiring

not gon do again after

[ivory vine]

this is only the 2nd season i even bothered to do pvp

[shy hazel]

[ivory vine]

but last season i missed like 15+ games cuz i was busy doing other shit

[shy hazel]

i set alarm on all resets

[ivory vine]

[shy hazel]

cant wake up a very tired body tho

[dull hollow]

meanwhile in JP i hit top ranks by not doing any sort of rank waiting

[ivory vine]

resets arent that bad in my time zone

[dull hollow]

cuz everyone's given up

[ivory vine]

[dull hollow]

[ivory vine]

it's like 2am/2pm/8pm

[dull hollow]

no that it matters

[ivory vine]

[dull hollow]

even in top 50

[coral wren]

y have they given up?

[dull hollow]

every comp is fucking garbage

because al is a bad game

there's no content

only nutjobs like me who like pvp still play

[shy hazel]

nutjob

alot of ppl using jint foxes aurora

heh

[dull hollow]

ppl will get baited into playing jintsuu aurora attacker side

and then complain

not knowing that attacker side torps suck ass

[coral wren]

I wonder why didn't they just make it even for both sides to have the same distance between rear and vanguard

[dull hollow]

yeah i dont get it either

would make attacker torps actually a bit more viable

and make defender torps less cancer

[odd schooner]

I found keripo's fleet

@charred sable nice fluff fetish

[charred sable]

[dull hollow]

ayanami on defense

cruel man

[charred sable]

I actually don't bother setting up a separate defence

[dull hollow]

ayanami on attacker

[charred sable]

Not enough spare gear cause of PvE leveling fleets

[sudden niche]

anyone

im gonna make pvp tier list soon

[supple stratus]

Sandy top tier

[sudden niche]

can u guys list out what is cumpolary ship to be on specific tier

its gonna be individual ship but synergy will be noted and placed on different list of tier

[dull hollow]

why make a pvp tier list

there's already like 3 floating around

[sudden niche]

no there isnt

and theirs are pvp comp tier

[dull hollow]

because pvp is all comp based lol

[sudden niche]

didnt really specificy if it was individual or placed on different comp with same synergy

not really

[dull hollow]

u cant just put akagi on hms

[sudden niche]

u can put enty on everywhere

juneau too

leander/belfast for their smokescreen work for all comps

im gonna make a new brand of real tier

[dull hollow]

i mean if you truely want to invest in a project that stops being true

in like

however long it takes for EN to get 110

i wont stop you from persuing ur own projects

but at the same time

you producing this product runs the risk of being misinformation

and since you are trying something that is one of your kid

kind*

if someone finds it weeks from now

they might not know

and that's a yikes from me

[sudden niche]

if they found out i'll edit

lol

[dull hollow]

it stops being useful very quickly tho

if ur vigilant and making sure it gets obslete'd when the time comes then yolo

[sudden niche]

i mean im not gonna make it 100% reliable, but enough for rough view of what beginner should invest on their ships

[dull hollow]

if they play for good PvE units they'll have a handful of good pvp units by default

the only exception is leander and belfast

everyone else you field in pve with decent success anyway

er

not leander

Juneau*

[sudden niche]

meh im gonna make it anyway

[dull hollow]

[coral wren]

Hm, is your tier lsit will be for en only?

[sudden niche]

yes

[coral wren]

Aight, i'm requesting Zeppelin

😄

[sudden niche]

i dont think ill be putting zeppelin into it

[dull hollow]

i can already tell you the project will be pointless but it will be fun for me to critiqgue it

[coral wren]

Oh, i thought you could name any ship, oh well

[sudden niche]

nah

[coral wren]

Is centaur strong because of her slow skill only?

[sudden niche]

both of her skills

[coral wren]

I kinda see that together with monarch the enemy team is slowed for a good amount of time, but other than that, is her buff that good for backline compared to others?

[odd schooner]

Go on

[dull hollow]

not like there's that many good buffers in the hms department

u have QE and then ?

centaur ship that brings broken damage and broken utility

gets a free buff too

abuse that shit yo

centaur fixes QE being useless as shit and helps monarch with getting 2hko which is key to her kit

[coral wren]

Hm, i see... but does she fit uss setups, like wasd?

[dull hollow]

she does ok

the slow effect lets the BB be more lethal

the con is that u get cucked by enty and eldridge

[coral wren]

But no better than big e, right?

[dull hollow]

which is pretty

depends on ur playstyle

if u play suicide FW enty probably better

but u can probably use ryuusei centaur and still bop some heads

if you front vs front fw

which sucks ass anyway

centaur is probably ur strongest option

barring E cucks + eldridge

[coral wren]

Mm, could you tell me what is the thing with essex? I heard she is way better than big e, but i guess it really once again depends on setup, right?

[dull hollow]

Broken dot, good team buffs

Better into akaga

Fw gonna be ded meme in en since you got amagi before nag

Fw was only good to shit on nakaga

Which might br outright skipped in en

[coral wren]

because ng+amagi>fw?

I think someone here tried suicide fw and it actually was pretty decent vs that

[dull hollow]

Namagi hard outclasses everything

Suicide fw sucks vs namagi

Their damage doesn't come during sodak window

And their damage is just naturally higher

Fw has low as shit damage

That's their biggest weakeness

[coral wren]

rip

[dull hollow]

Suicide fw just happens to excel vs akaga cuz you negate an entire wave of damage while having just barely enough to win on the return fire

[coral wren]

really never understood what was so special about fw, since that 5 secs invul on sodak is pretty shit imo and wash barrage has garbage dmg

@dull hollow What about hms on jp? How are they doing vs namagi?

Same as the rest?

[halcyon hill]

Besides Prinz and Portland, which other CA is good for pvp?

"good" btw

Maybe Indi for portland's buff?

[coral wren]

st baguette

[sudden niche]

all CA is generally not good for pvp

i wish the staff balance these type of stuff

[odd schooner]

They did

120

[modern tree]

Making a tier list based on boats objective power seems incredibly hard considering most of the boats are powerful only in contex of something and EN has like 2 boats that are free of that

[coral wren]

EN has like 2 boats that are free of that
amagi and ?

[modern tree]

Enterprise and Juneau. Amagi is not that strong without 4 ijn

Just like Helena is not that strong if you have nothing to synergize and Belfast is not that strong if everyone plays BBs

[coral wren]

but the only thing that amagi loses without 4 ijn is her shortened time for her 1st salvo to shoot

[sudden niche]

^ that is important tho

[modern tree]

I have believed that, but running her without this fast shot makes her just a hood sidegrade

You take less damage instead of dealing damage faster

[wise summit]

Amagi is kind of lacklustre outside of activating the proc, and the Big Deal is that she fires in underneath Belfast with Akaga, it's three strikes in before the enemy has even one

[coral wren]

hmmm u got a point

[wise summit]

And this is very extremely powerful

[sudden niche]

45% reduce cooldown is significant, especially she procs when she fires

[coral wren]

hmm wow never thought of that, thanks

[odd schooner]

I assume you guys tested this too right

Like

Hands-on

[sudden niche]

yes

[odd schooner]

Welp

Seems like it's no use checking all of the skills and how it would work better than enterprise for stalling purposes on Washington fleet

Gotta go

[clear cloud]

is enty with beaver good?

[coral wren]

no

[odd schooner]

Technically yes

eHP

She'll live longer than usual

[clear cloud]

is it better than aviation aux tho

[odd schooner]

Ppl were swapping out a cata for a beaver + double dmg from lucky E cover much of the dmg loss

She's still dangerous on her own

With the right planes

[coral wren]

🤔

[odd schooner]

I'm testing it now. No issue on dmg at all

BiS front BiS backline

Well the only big concern is when this is placed on defense

Like your after your front dies on first airstrike, 2nd.wave of torpedoes will hit your back

And usually, E chan gets facetorped so hard

And that's how ppl end up screwing FW fleet in less than 30s

[clear cloud]

Repair tool or Fuel Filter on frontline?

[pastel forge]

I don't think you use fuel filter at all on pvp currently

[modern tree]

Boilers

[analog hare]

Boilers

[clear cloud]

oh sorry wrong aux. i mean boiler

[modern tree]

"Like your after your front dies on first airstrike, 2nd. wave of torpedoes will hit your back" that's every comp tho, defense fleets are only threatening if they run torps and get lucky to mess up your main fleet. Stalling doesn't really work anymore

[modern tree]

Mostly because our 2 viable fleets can both dps race akaga and snipe Enterprise so most things you will see on defense just folds. the only thing I could really see giving people trouble as defense fleet is Enterprise Akaga, Jintsuu Juneau Aurora/Ayanami cuz you take all the things that actually work on defense and use them at the same time, it's probably still rather bad

[coral wren]

Wasd Desron gave me quite the hardtime but thats because i dont have leander

And hopefully when warspite retro hits the en we will have the final solution to namagi question

Could anyone share their BB Kaga / Aurora equipment please?

[modern tree]

Recommendations from the pin will work. Most important things are probably purple 410 gun on Kaga and a good AA gun for Aurora to leverage their skills and stats respectively

[real notch]

@coral wren
aurora
triple 155mm
quad magtorp
twin 113mm
torp bulge
toolkit

*note: auxs and torp will vary depending on VG comp

[coral wren]

Thanks i‘ll now wag my tail and rub it on you

[real notch]

[modern tree]

Today I am gonna test boilers vs lunchboxes on 3 CL fleet over a dozen of games just to have a proof that there is a meaningful difference between them or to prove that they are interchangable I guess

What would be the best fleet to run this with?

Was thinking of HMS because 3CL is sort of a staple and the fleet is not really super overpowered to mess with the results

I could try wasd hood/amagi too I suppose, depending on how much time I waste

[hybrid tendon]

CA is great against jint auro aya deathsquad

😂

Been demolishing them left and right

[coral wren]

they do survive opening torps?

[dull hollow]

the only fleet truely devoid of rng is Tirpitz + akaga

[modern tree]

I can play that too

[dull hollow]

like speed is important but you dont need like 4 boilers level of it

usually running Saint or a DD implicitly fixes your speed issues

with a beaver tossed in

3 CL sits squarely in pepega terrority tho

so u might need 1 or 2 boilers

[modern tree]

yeah but EN doesnt have Louis or Ykkz so our options for speed blow

So 3CL is basically what you get

[dull hollow]

well u guys can meme with aya

[modern tree]

Ayanami on offense

We do have DDs like Cygnet or Fortune that are semi-useable, but their HMS niche is by far the weakest it has been on EN in a while and slotting them in without 15% boost to evasion is

Maybe we will get Centaur with the Chaser

[odd schooner]

@coral wren CA def doesn't live that long more or less they die faster than a CL on first airstrike

[shy hazel]

Didnt realize

If i fight leftmost person and he is lower rank than me

Still only get 9

[hybrid tendon]

They did survive the shitty torps

Lul

Do i have to fucking record a video or some shit

For you guys to believe me

The point is aya jint auro is really bad at surviving

[odd schooner]

Did you read the def part

Or do I need to put it in caps

We did say Belfast was just enough to counter a jint aya aurora def

[hybrid tendon]

Actually no

[odd schooner]

Actually yes

[hybrid tendon]

You need more HP

[odd schooner]

Just the smoke

@modern tree try the boilers on hms, Washington fleet vanguard just sinks while eating everything
Combinations I tried was Belfast Juneau Fortune Kai
Belfast Juneau Leander
Belfast Aurora Juneau
Belfast Jintsui Juneau

I tried 3 boilers tho

2 juneau 1 on wildcard

[shy hazel]

Try using justice loli

[sharp obsidian]

Aya Jint Aur's true value is really just to make PvP life less time consuming - for both attackers and defenders. I am honestly very happy when Jint and Aur came since I can now end most matches <40s.

[ionic magnet]

do boilers really help? i tried using beaver tag and the bonus spd just makes me eat all the torps around

[uneven trench]

it helps with avoiding bb salvos

[coral wren]

same here, i love how its so much faster to win now

and how there is less ent vs ent situations

[clear cloud]

i feel that ryusei is better than cuda
the sakura torp spawn so close to the enemy frontline they just eat all the torp

[elder crane]

On offense, that's true, for defense, it kind of isn't
It also can be somewhat RNG at times
Plus, it slows down launches a bit, which can often make the mirror uncomfortable
Overall, it's certainly an option, but I don't think it's actually better

@ionic magnet Yep, bascially, it's an anti-BB strat and has been shown to actively be worse against torps to go faster

[real notch]

the problem with CAs are that they get shredded by CV strikes

and unlike torps it's guaranteed shredded everytime

[vague token]

port kai sooooon

xD

believe in the 75 evade CA with 5k hp ;)))

(probably not but i want to dream)

[deft flicker]

finally got the top 3, then back to 300 4hrs later

[odd schooner]

Looks promising imo

[placid musk]

leander retro or aurora for hms fleet?

[coral wren]

id go aurora

[hot creek]

Aurora is a IJN ship

if you're playing HMS, Leander would be more useful.

[coral wren]

aurora is HMS...

[hot creek]

I know what I said.

[coral wren]

?

[hot creek]

Aurora is for buffing Akaga airstrikes and IJN torpedos

[coral wren]

doesnt need to be ijn torps

[hot creek]

It might as well be. She does not benefit HMS fleets nearly as she does IJN.

[placid musk]

isn't that jintsuu's job?

[hot creek]

The evasion debuff makes torps and airstrikes much much more effective

[coral wren]

but that doesnt mean she cant be in a hms fleet

[hot creek]

If you're playing HMS, you're much better off with using a stall frontline.

Aurora doesn't fit that criteria.

[placid musk]

true

so akaga/amagi / aurora / ayanami / jintsuu?

[coral wren]

some people throw a bel in there instead of aya or aurora

dunno y aurora though

[hot creek]

take out ayanami, put in Belfast or Junuea

[shy hazel]

Aurora is ijn ship

The man isnt lying

[coral wren]

i havent seen many jint, jun, aur combo's though

so i cant be certain if it works

[shy hazel]

Aurora outside of ijn is crap

[hot creek]

on offense, you don't want to invest too much in torps unless you're memeing

so I wouldn't bring Aya while attacking, she's fine in the defense fleet though.

[shy hazel]

👀

[odd schooner]

You could still go ayanami for blitzing

[shy hazel]

Hey that depends

[odd schooner]

But for mirror fights

Better go Belfast or Juneau

[shy hazel]

I agree using ayanami for fast bomb teams

[sharp obsidian]

Why won't you bring Aya to an offense fleet? Is there a better candidate to winning games faster?

[odd schooner]

[hot creek]

torps on the offense side are still RNG as hell and because the battle is closer to your side, you won't even have the benfit of hitting enemy backline as often when you miss the fronline.

[odd schooner]

Ayanami is the greatest threat for Washington fleet btw

[hot creek]

I guess if you want to reset everytime you don't get a satisfactory openeing torp, you can use Aya on offense

[odd schooner]

But technically for mirror match, swap her out

[sharp obsidian]

Hardly though - there's 2 layers of RNG that more or less guarantees your win if either one hits

First would be the Torp Strikes, next would be Amagi + Akaga's barrage

If either of those destroy the FL, then the battle is pretty much won?

RNG wise, it is pretty favorable since either conditions could work unless you are really unlucky

I've not had to switch any ships since Amakaga + AyaJintAur came offensively. Resets are barely needed as well.

[odd schooner]

IJN Jintsuu Aurora Aynami - Any fleet that isn't IJN
Jintsuu Aurora Belfast/Juneau - IJN + It still works on any fleet but don't a consistent expect 30s below matches

[hybrid tendon]

beat this guy with this lineup

prinz survived till the end

while belfast die in the initial torp wave

oh wait I should find a guy with aurora

hes gonna lose even harder

[sharp obsidian]

I'm not sure what your point is?

[hybrid tendon]

people keeps talking shit

about CA

being useless

they are wrong

[sharp obsidian]

if you put it defensively, it is easy food for practically any lineup

[hybrid tendon]

and they should shut their mouth

[odd schooner]

@hybrid tendon put that on def and I'll sink that in 30s

[sharp obsidian]

Offensively, of course anything can happen

But Defensively, any CA is just food

[hybrid tendon]

same shit can be said with anything

[odd schooner]

You already even went past 40s blitz

[hybrid tendon]

I'm confident that I could beat any line up

[odd schooner]

With a fox backline

[hybrid tendon]

[odd schooner]

The purpose was already lost

[sharp obsidian]

Offensively, you can put Kisaragi in there and you can still win agaisnt anyline up

[hybrid tendon]

so CA are good offensively

[sharp obsidian]

I am not sure what your point is

[odd schooner]

Ye

[hybrid tendon]

against aya torp squad

they are not useless

NOT

so next time you talking shit about CA

[sharp obsidian]

No ships are useless - but some perform far better than others

CAs are in a bad spot at Level 100. They become useful at 120

[hybrid tendon]

aya torp when it actually hit deals like 2k dmg at best

I just got hit

[sharp obsidian]

I really fail to see what your point is?

[hybrid tendon]

one shotted

a DD

but

not a CA

[ivory vine]

ca actually take more damage from torps anyway

[hybrid tendon]

a DD has like 1500 hp

[ivory vine]

less eva and they have med armor

[sharp obsidian]

You need to look at Effective HP

[hybrid tendon]

btw that was my first try

[sharp obsidian]

Rather than raw HP

[ivory vine]

basically the only place id consider using ca is if they have aurora

[odd schooner]

First of all we never mentioned anything on OFFENSIVE CAs

[hybrid tendon]

everytime I use CA vs torp squad

[odd schooner]

We're trying out DEFENSIVE ones

[ivory vine]

or just at 120

[velvet fossil]

Any ca i go against literally dies before akaga dive bombers get to finish

[ivory vine]

cuz then they actually have eva

[hybrid tendon]

"CA are shit" encompasses both

[sharp obsidian]

lol

[hybrid tendon]

next time be specific or stop talking shit

[sharp obsidian]

You have no point.

[odd schooner]

@hybrid tendon See that time. It's already past 40s

Guess what

That defeats the purpose already

[hybrid tendon]

what

the torp squad were too weak?

[odd schooner]

IJN was meant to blitz during crunch time

[hybrid tendon]

ok I'd find another one with aurora then

they would still die

[odd schooner]

Oh my goodness

[hidden wyvern]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HNhe9AEL3o

[sharp obsidian]

You don't understand - Offensively, anything can work

Defensively, some ships work better than others

CAs are really bad defensively

[coral wren]

^

[hybrid tendon]

so next time stop talking shit like "CA are bad"

[sharp obsidian]

You can bring a Fletcher Squad to PvP and do well

[hybrid tendon]

use "CA are weak defensively instead"

every fucking time I see people shitting on CA

I want to prove that they are WRONG

[sharp obsidian]

We already made clear what the discussion is

You are not proving anything

[lament lichen]

dude any ship can be used offensively

[coral wren]

and successfully

[odd schooner]

Anything can work offensively the problem on your end is that you don't understand rushing especially during admiral of the navy days

[lament lichen]

you were salty that your torp comp kept losing in the mirror wor some reason

[odd schooner]

Not everyone can have a perfect win on all tries every season

There's always 1-4 loss/miss on some people

[lament lichen]

no defense team is perfect anyways

[odd schooner]

The ijn is the key for some ppl to taste gensui

And some of us still want them to suffer

[sharp obsidian]

I just wish there would be a <20s comp 😃

[odd schooner]

Imagine blocking one dude for 10s

To let another guy in

Then that guy has 1 point more in total

[sharp obsidian]

Is the Gensui rush intense on Avrora?

Lexington is pretty chill

[lament lichen]

depends what time you do it

but its pretty easy to get it if you only want the bonus

[odd schooner]

@sharp obsidian ye some ppl get stuck till last reset

[sharp obsidian]

Wow, that's tough. I've had season where I missed 5 attacks in Lexi and still had 0 trouble getting AotN. I suppose Avrora is prolly the toughest since most Veterans are there

[shy hazel]

U should realize in avrora

U lose once u no get aotn

At least thats how i feel

God i feel that i wont get aotn even without losing

[coral wren]

damn thats rough

lex is so much more chill then, lose a couple battles, no worries

[sharp obsidian]

Yeah, Lex has at least a 5-loss buffer. You can lose or not attack up to 5 times and still get AoTN. It isn't as intense and don't really need to get any +1/+2. You can get just the standard +10 per attack and still comfortably get AoTN.

[wise summit]

I'm rank 5 on lex with 5/10 right now

and I have a terrible fear of losing points

[shy hazel]

When i lose i go to Mcdonalds fast

Eat alot of fries

So i can reduce my life a little bit faster

[coral wren]

[odd schooner]

Isn't that stress eating instead

[real notch]

CAs suck

they're the worst VG class in PVP

pretty much undisputable fact atm

[subtle whale]

yeah they pretty much just dies

[shy hazel]

Ima try out jintsuu avrora ayanami torp memes

Reset until i get a torp hug

[coral wren]

Its not even a meme. It legit works better than all vanguards that exists so far.

[real notch]

if anyone finds my fleet

plz test against me

[odd schooner]

What's your ign again

[real notch]

i'm testing jintsuu aurora juneau effectiveness vs jintsuu aurora ayanami/belfast

it's tanamichi

[coral wren]

I tried them too. Belfast is working the best for me

[finite valve]

i find that belfap aurora jintsuu work best for me

[coral wren]

same

[finite valve]

belfap to counter foxes and aurora + jintsuu to ensure front die in 1 air strike and back line take damage

[lone pendant]

o

still lvling akagi skill

[topaz beacon]

there seems to be hella lot of akaga defense fleets

akagamagi to be specific

[finite valve]

well they are call meta for a reason

[modern tree]

I find it funny that mr. Senate comes here periodically trying to convince everyone that CAs are great with screenshots that show that he would have lost if he didn't have attacker advantage. CAs (with Belfast) let me win (in a fox miror when I have advantage and my opponent has no Belfast) therefore CAs are great (they defeated torpedo boogeyman 1/1 time)

CAs are better than people give them credit for, but they require: badge that you could be using on a backliner, smoke or a destroyer to fix their speed so they don't make you tank everything from the backline raw, a backline that benefits from stalling by trading damage efficiency, probably more...?

[ionic magnet]

its just one of those "just bec it works, it doesnt mean its good" things

[modern tree]

Yelling "I won with it" won't convince anyone. Especially me. I got my first gensui with Portland Indianapolis and it sucked

[lament lichen]

The reason why he even began to use CAs was that he kept losing in e mirror

[real notch]

the problem is we've had plenty of those people before

ones who argue specifically that CAs are amazing and should not be slept on

it's not anything new

[modern tree]

I'd say that people that try to convince others that the lineup they play is the bee's knees by just saying it wins can still teach us something, it's just harder to see what it is

[real notch]

well there's that

and there's the actual way of proving a point in AL PVP

which is
a. data evidence
b. empirical evidence

either you prove your point with pure data numbers or you prove it with reset testing

[dull hollow]

"perfect" saintlouis style FW on defense

loses 10:0 vs namagi

[real notch]

running up to someone with a couple unrecorded wins against untracked opponents is just useless information

[vague token]

eh, it isnt that bad with bulge

like i meme with Minne and she doesnt die to torps usually with badge/bulge

[real notch]

nah portland is good in PVP

[vague token]

and she has less hp and less evade

[real notch]

portkai level 100

[vague token]

portland will be a straight upgrade of that

[real notch]

probably the most viable CA

[modern tree]

Port kai should do fine for what she is, which is beefy CA gun with mgm. Still hard to really see what lineup would want that, but she will work

[dull hollow]

houston lol

[real notch]

45 EVA with 75 after badge

[dull hollow]

nevermind the 1.4k HP differntial

[vague token]

i mean she's just a bruiser

she doesnt have a team skill

[coral wren]

im guessing this is only pvp wise that CA is shit, cause the guys in #gameplay-help are praising them, saying CA is best class and CL is worst

[real notch]

portkai will be probably the only PVP viable CA

[dull hollow]

i mean those guys would be correct if uh

you guys had 120 uncap

[vague token]

xD

[real notch]

ehh i wouldn't say CL is the worst class lol

[dull hollow]

CL is handsdown

the worst class

it's just not evident yet

[vague token]

cl is the worst class, just some CLs have good skills lol

[real notch]

some of the best ship skills are in CL class

[dull hollow]

that's the only thing that gives CL a pass

they have the best utility

[real notch]

are we talking PVP

because in PVP CL is the best VG class

[dull hollow]

is it even fair to call junny a cl

she uses dd guns

[vague token]

id say technically cl isnt that great without a huge damage steroid like jintsuu

not a lot of damage pressure

without her and aurora

[real notch]

in PVE CL is including phoenix jintsuu and helena

[vague token]

no jintsuu gimps damage, no aurora means you can dodge them

so they just become floating skills

[dull hollow]

tbf there's no longer a pressing need for aurora or belfast anymore in latergame pvp

[real notch]

from my perspective, in PVE phoenix is better than minneapolis

[dull hollow]

like with nagato's buff and amagi's silliness

and an 818 utility bot CV

you have 0 issues deleting frontlines

even speedmorons like ykkz

[vague token]

ugh i dont want to imagine nagato/amagi

plz lets not have that yet

[dull hollow]

you guys will straight skip nakaga and go to namagi

nakaga is a joke now

ive had battles where my junny dies to opening strike and I baiscally lose Nagato to the first air strike

amagi solo carries

[real notch]

nagato amagi when

[dull hollow]

Hyuuga is fine

Hiryuu is okayyyyy

hiryuu kai obv better

taihou is super good in that slot

i mean u could probably run stupid shit like enterprise

[real notch]

taihou when

[dull hollow]

but that means slotting 2 IJN fronts

which is awful

since no ykkz

lel

[vague token]

isnt enterprise a little slow?

[dull hollow]

enterprise is fine

if taihou can keep up

[vague token]

but taihou is ijn for gun speed

xD

[dull hollow]

i just relegate my solo CV to a utility bot anyway

like i see every CN guide suggest ryuusei on their hiryuu and im like

let's put ryuusei on a CV with no buffed air power

or you know, just run 818s and go for frontline dominance

[vague token]

is that the swordfish slow one?

[dull hollow]

yeah

cuz with FCR effect amagi fires

when ur CV launches

bb firing on slowed frontline is super fucking strong

[vague token]

yeah, i wanted to do that with ark but she's ugh

[dull hollow]

ark 117 reload

at level 120

idek what it is at 100

[vague token]

bad

will dork work as a stop gap lol

xD

[dull hollow]

no

hms is dead until centaur monarch

[modern tree]

Just run Fulmar on Ark

[vague token]

i do

it's still barely fast enough for a 406

[modern tree]

I was slapping nerds with it. Was fun while it lasted

[dull hollow]

centaur lets u do all that while actually being a powerhouse unit and having stacked reload

bless this stupid boat

[vague token]

ive had multiple rounds of ark dying to amagi and first air strike

so, not really into it

xD

[modern tree]

I still have sliver of hope we will get Warspite kai or Centaur tomorrow

[vague token]

centaur plz

=D

[dull hollow]

with namagi taking over we're seeing an end of bullshit era tbh

nakaga vs nakaga is always a clencher

because both sides feel like paper

[vague token]

i still feel like paper on offense lol

[dull hollow]

namagi is a more "slow" burn

so your 20% stat bonus

means u just win

it's kinda boring i guess

[vague token]

i dont have akaga so

not really

xD

[dull hollow]

nakaga vs nakaga was sill a coin filp

cuz of opening torp bullshit

and airstrike rng

[vague token]

yeah

[dull hollow]

namagi vs namagi doesnt have that level of bullshit

outside of nagato procs I guess

so overall you just naturally win cuz fewer burst rng openings

outside of the hiryuu mirror matchup I'm sitting on a 100% winrate

all flavors of nakaga havent managed to force me to reset yet

FW lost 10 battles in a row

[modern tree]

Do shells increase crit rate on Hood/Wash barrage?

[dull hollow]

probably not

since the white shell doesnt increase crit damage

as such, put FCR on your primary barragers

since accuracy does increase crit rate

[modern tree]

I did consider that. Just wondering if you could do something silly

I am little bit burned out by FW having no damage

[dull hollow]

yeah that shit sucks lmao

FW was hyped up for so long

and we got it on JP

and we're like

????????

[modern tree]

But I don't want to play foxes and HMS

[dull hollow]

play essexE then

[vague token]

lol

[modern tree]

As soon as we get anniversary

[dull hollow]

every nation besides kms has a viable comp in pvp

[modern tree]

You are right, I will play kms cuz it doesn't matter what I play on EN

[vague token]

xD

[modern tree]

Thanks

[dull hollow]

kms doesnt even have a kms lineup

u have to slot one off nation ship

or not run tirpitz

[modern tree]

I will use E and pretend her and tirp are sisters

[vague token]

technically nep also is trash

;)

[dull hollow]

cant run full nepline up either

[vague token]

yep

NEXT form retrofits for the cpus when

for viable

xD

i know

[dull hollow]

i just put DoY in school for 20 hours straight

[vague token]

ill be using duke of york

because team debuff =D

[odd schooner]

Dude if we get centaur this cny imma flip

Flip in joy ofc

[modern tree]

I wish they'd stop holding the patch notes hostage

[odd schooner]

Ye

1 day left

12 skins waiting for us to pop

Was it 12

Or 11

[modern tree]

Maintenance is in 24 hours, just tell us

[vague token]

they've gone up like way earlier before right?

[ionic magnet]

11 i think

5 are fodders

are you sure

maybe theres more announcements later

[hot creek]

welp, my HMS is having trouble against Amakaga now. I assume they max skills and are actually geared now. rip in peace

[real notch]

which amakaga is this

can i se

[hot creek]

bel, jintsuu aurora.

my frontline just gets nuked every time no matter what

I would test a little bit longer

[real notch]

what's fleetpower

[hot creek]

but resets coming

it was like 12.4 12.6 or something

Hood was refusing to proc as well. She's like "just switch to amakaga for you own sake, admiral"

didn't matter whether she proc'd or not though, cause once frontline is dead its gg

unless you've already taken out at least one of their backliners

which HMS should have no problem doing before

but Amagi's debuffs are balanced

and healthy for the meta

[real notch]

true

hmm

[shy hazel]