Let's talk about GS Anguished Endless.

[tidal wyvern]

All temps and already casted 2 apex skills before this. Looks like quick raid. Or what was time to do it? Can you compare it to others? If he miss single temp, he would need those turns again.

I can post here ss with gs doing 1bil hit. "There is no round after that". 🤷‍♂️

[restive turtle]

that's duo that one doesn't count, anyways disable anguish mode on gs endless so that everybody won't feel threatened about orn gains

easy fix, no complicated shenanigans

[tight dagger]

69 mil hp raid?

Yeah that'd take me 6 minutes as a GSA to do, If I get lucky 4 minutes XD at my 100AL and optimal set

I really don't think GSA is on par with any class on any content, it's at least low bargain 2X slower, granted I've never been able to do a tower in under 10 minutes ( and seen many who have and make more tower shards then me 😭 )

GSA dungeons I'm having to switch sets 3 times per dungeon just so I can kill A.mammon 😅 thing is the bane to summoner existence, not many classes have such HARD counters as we do tbf, enter some more of them in endless you'd probably reduce the efficiency of it at the very least

[restive turtle]

hmm maybe deity needs another nerf because they can do 10x better and faster on gsa raids

[tidal wyvern]

I bet it would also take several hours or days for exp-less to kill it. Lets nerf all others accordingly.

Your choice to nerf yourself to gsa and killing the raid only via summons.

[tight dagger]

Well I'm not AL 200

So my BP doesn't hit cap lmaoo

And it's not even raids, summons are bad in ALL content but endless iirc and it can be a 3X comparable at least

[sacred canyon]

I would encourage you to take a look at the volume of Orna discussion threads vs Aethric. Feedback for the game is virtually non-existent on that server - perhaps this is why folk feel like updates are forced upon them - we need adequate feedback (or in some cases, any)

Rather then stirring up drama on the Orna server where conversation is trying to remain productive, please consider trying to get the right conversations going in the Aethric side

[fossil galleon]

Idk about how difficult it would be to code it but wouldn't applying the anguish maluses to the summons be enough of a nerf alone? Buff fade no longer is a benefit to summoners and you gotta take account for what dmg types you're summons are getting?

[noble flower]

It wouldn't be that bad if it's endless only, but it wouldn't solve the "summons outscaling anguish" problem, that most people see as the biggest issue

[tidal wyvern]

Well, since as was said - summoner is weak everywhere else - the hit should only apply to endless.

[fossil galleon]

That's fair, I think the only thing thats gonna be at least relatively accepted is gonna be an endless only nerf or change

[thick wolf]

I was asking for it too - i just didnt wanna lose steadfest. I do not like beeing slandered like that :)

Sadly only thing we got is depression

Oh no wait nvm
Youre right i was against it xD

[pearl marten]

BeoA with cactus is basicly weakest aoe if you count melancholy in this .

[fathom apex]

GSH, let me introduce myself.

[pearl marten]

atleast gsh can use bl2

[untold urchin]

This is "Phil struggling to get his point across" the thread

[fathom apex]

weakest BL2 in the pack. Even with Souls + HyPa's 4 temp Mag stat boost. DoF the best spec because of % free turns when you kill, but the draw back is temp buffs are gone next floor. There is also the problem of Auto-summon not procing next turn or procing other summons that is not Summon Dead. If you go oracle, you lose % turns from DoF but need a God roll on Amity where its 40% Crit and 50% Positive. So yeah. I think BeoA can use CD followers right?

[pearl marten]

there is no collateral dmg pets

[tidal wyvern]

So, umm, hydrus pact being aoe, procing temps, you are trying to keep them, isn't that basically using of dara aoe apex - getting temps, hoping they will stick, having only low chance to have them and apex can be used only every 3-4 floor? 🤷‍♂️

[twilit pumice]

It is simular to apex, but HyPa is not full AoE (max 3 enemies), and currently much less AoE damage (less than the typical split damage).
@tidal wyvern

[tidal wyvern]

Well, I tried my AL0 GSH at ang10 dungeon ...and it was okay dmg?

[storm valve]

it is ok dmg and i can also 0 things out with gsh, hoping chain dmg gets fixed to try non crit builds

to be in topic, I agree with phil that there should be more interactions between summons and ang maluses, at the same time there should be more interactions with bonuses as well, as someone already said, if you nerf GSA in that sense without anything in return you kill the class in other content as well, remember that summon stats are additive and that yel gear use pure dragonite, which is not a common material and the average player is not going to be able to use his demonworking tools to lvl up is gear as fast as you think

[twilit pumice]

Currently, HyPa is not just split AoE, but it hits the max of 3 enemies with only 1/9 damage per enemy compared to hitting a single opponent. Thus, the AoE capability is currently very limited - much less than BL2 or Apex-based AoE (but probably rather a bug that will be fixed). And now back to topic (unless anybody really thinks that GS is strong in other content justifying an overall nerf...) 😉

[tidal wyvern]

Summon stats are additive, but then multiplied by AL.

While stats on ang gear is just additive, without AL (or any other) base stats interactions.

[storm valve]

that's already a fix i can agree on, make ang bonus summon stats be calculated additivectly after AL is taken in consideration, same with other stats

[tight dagger]

Mainly because summons don't have crazy multipliers and interactions like 40% crit or 2-handed bonuses ect

They are generally just chunks of pure stats, in which each summon scales differently

Summons with 1100% summon stats multiplied by 100AL still do less dmg then an average player can pull off at 50 AL for simple interactions like raids/dungeons/towers/world spawns

(Adding maluses to summons just kills the summoner playstyle if no added Benefits come into play, on that note, simply disabling endless from anguish content would be the simplest answer )

[tidal wyvern]

simply disabling endless from anguish content would be the simplest answer

tho I agree on this like one of possible solution (and maybe simplest and fastest for the time, before better solution come into place), I still kind of like the option to run it anguished for challenge

[tight dagger]

Unfortunately it kills a lot of summoner endless builds if anguish is turned off, like gazers/phoniex pledges/ect

I think anguished endless is just too profitable for everyone to ignore more so "the fun of the challenge" on orna side of things

While on HOA, everyone would much rather do other activities then even touch endless XD

If it was for fun, I'd rather just disable the orn scaling entirely in mel content orns not scaling per floor, so I can still play my many different and unique endless builds rather then completely killing all options but AD and mammoth realistically

[tidal wyvern]

Unfortunately it kills a lot of summoner endless builds if anguish is turned off, like gazers/phoniex pledges/ect

Umm, would be same as ang1? summons stats would be still pretty high and summoner would still get deepest of all classes in both farm gear or pure depth? 🤔

I think anguished endless is just too profitable for everyone to ignore more so "the fun of the challenge" on orna side of things

I don't think it is profitable for anyone but GS. Not sure about Beo, but one pet can't save its life, so most likely not. Everybody get hits by the maluses and lose their damage before it is profitable to run. Ppl run just ang1 to get new passives and that's it lol.

[tight dagger]

1. Ang1 AD was the only real viable option, you don't have enough summon stats to negate getting zero'd out by a redlined RS floor 500 on gazers ( you'd have to use them to understand really, but their pen is much less ), we have mammoth now which is better then AD, but you'd kill at least 4 types of endless summoner builds and nearly kill gazers usefulness in most content, summoner would still go higher then other classes but you'd be effectively killing some builds for summoner doing so was my point

2.with the limited ways to get orns in orna it just seems besides memory hunting and endless there's no other ways to profit in orns so in which case anguish endless content is seen as "too profitable to ignore" not so much "for the fun of the challenge" on that note I wouldn't mind getting rid of maluses that hinder other classes in endless content either imo, as long as it enabled more builds and diversity I would be okay with it 👍

[tidal wyvern]

Just to point 2. There are more ways to do orns in Orna. But I'm not willing to spend more time on something that can be done quicker - endless. World farming or memory hunt never was profitable as endless - even close.

[noble flower]

That would affect more than just endless, though, unless it’s an endless only change

[storm valve]

i mean there is another thread about an endless overhaul with which i strongly agree, from an rpg point of view kinda makes sense snapshotting for endless, you are preparing with everything you have got for an seemingly endless effort, but the same snapshotting is what makes this thread (and every other thread before this about classes being too good) a thing, I think it's time for an endless revamp where anguish and snapshotting gets taken into account for the difficulty

[fathom apex]

HyPa is capped at 3, plus don't all the Dieties have Staying Power?

Think of it this way. Diety having 40% Buff for the Synergization of that T. All+++ helps alot. While GSH's Temps lasts for 1-2 secs. GSH lost at that because if the temp buffs (especially the 3 T.Mag and T.All+) are lost at the next turn, you have to HyPa (if your board is full) or Summod Dead (if your board is not full) -> HyPa which already make you very vulnerable because Summon Dead are fragile, Auto-Summoned summons (ex. AD, GP, and GH) are semi-fragile too. Those can't do allat because have less stats, do less to no damage, and can't take any beating. They made HyPa only hit 3 because people are so tired of seeing another full AoE skill, compared it to BL2 and made it so that it cannot be spammable. So idk.

[tight dagger]

Gsh was already good for BL2, but comparatively always be the worst magic class to use BL2 lol

At the very least base GS summons can tank a hit, and clean up when using BL2 as base GS, GSH doesn't have that luxury ( no summon stat scaling or useful passives really )

Gs lines still remain the most frail and AOE is our hardest counter in our gameplay loop

But on the subject of endless as @tidal wyvern has said as well, if the objective is to put everyone on a semi same pace for endless, no anguish content in endless would put everyone back on track, and it's the simplest answer for a fix without huge overhauls

[noble flower]

Yeah, none or level 1, so people can still take advantage of the anguished gear passives

[true bronze]

Personaly, i think that would be good change(maybe untill endless rework in future 👀).

[velvet rock]

Endless is fine imo, gs as a whole is what needs a rework

[true bronze]

I'd say its kinda fine for gsh, gs and gsa just need passive rework as they're kinda joke and litteraly worst in game, but that's conversation for gs/gsa rework thread which will maybe someday be created

[restive turtle]

and then ascended summons gets plucked out

[twilit pumice]

So the reasonable proposals for a potential GS endless nerf seem to be:

• Option A: Change anguish summon stats from AL multiplicative to additive for GS endless only
• Option B: Disable anguish in endless for all classes
• (Option C: don't nerf GS - there also seem to be many voices for this)
  I prefer option a) (or c), but b) is also okay. Endless has built-in difficulty- and orn increase with higher floors, which is already "anguish-style". A choice between Anguish 0/1 is strange for me, and it would need an additional anguish tab.

[true bronze]

Option A would be good if it was for endless only, but i think it would still let gs absolutly dominate endless

[velvet rock]

I'm fine with gs being God tier at endless, I just don't think summons should out scale anguish. Point of anguish is to make things more difficult to get increased rewards and it defeats that purpose if a class gets more rewards + easier difficulty

Richard typing up another novel with incorrect math and disingenuous assumptions 🍿

[twilit pumice]

I agree, but for me it is totally fine if a class dominates in one specific content. I even prefer a game design where you can profit from switching between different classes and getting familiar with different playstyles. Before GS, Dara dominated endless - like easily reaching F400 with AL0 in full orn, while probably all other classes are struggling to reach F400 with AL0 in their strongest gear - but Deity is at the same time very good in all other aspects of the game, which is not very healthy for any game (but please don't get me wrong: this does NOT mean that I want deity nerfed further!). GS is currently either used by fans of the summoner style or for endless only, and I think that's fine.

[twilit pumice]

You have not pointed to any incorrect calculation. Oh wait, you didn't calculate anything at all... 🙄

[quick gyro]

GS dominating endless isn’t a problem. The problem is the degree to which they do so, which completely invalidates one of the most important currencies in the game

[tidal wyvern]

As Bordoadas said. As AL150 GS at mel20 I was able to get to lower floors then GS at mel40. By several hundreds. Weirdly enough. 🙂 Not to mention my orn was a bit over 100% from anguish (cuz I had to be shackled), his was over 300%, so not that he got further, he even got more than double the orns from same floors. Huh.

GS will dominate endless still. GS dominated endless even in ang1.0. GS had similar gain in endless as DAra per hour without Yelm gear. Yelm gear (just common, for buffing phase), made GS endless just more convenient and make it easily supras DAra - even without anguish.

[twilit pumice]

I don't disagree, you can get deeper with more anguish, particularly with high AL. Just let HoC cost 5x of the current proofs, then people will think about whether HoC to GS just for orns is worth it 😂

[restive turtle]

let's just make hoccing to gs much more tedious

we'll require id, police records, medical records, driver's license and 2 authentication factor + qr code on top of it.

[twilit pumice]

Easy fix 👍 😄

[tidal wyvern]

Ok? I would still buy it from market. I made in 4 hours orns I would need 40 hours as my main. Market price is joke against that. Not to mentined the mental breakdown from so many hours of endless I escaped.

[twilit pumice]

You mean the rune shop, for real money? I guess nf could live with that proposal

Honestly, I would probably prefer if orn bonus for anguished non-endless (shackled?) content was heavily increased, so that you have to actually play difficult (otherwise normal) content for orns/ALs. Instead of running endless, which is one of my least favorite content (except deep dungeons 😅)

[tidal wyvern]

I already bought couple there. Even stock some when they were in action. Before Conq guild came into game and I had bunch of useless proof to spend for them. 😄

[true bronze]

2 month arrest in summoner. You can't hoc back in 2 months 🤣

[twilit pumice]

Or after 3x defense winning in kwars, whatever comes first (-> it will be 2 months, but let them try) 😄

[noble flower]

I won 2 against players with +30AL more than me just yesterday

[fathom apex]

Isn't ALs like a reward system for your hard work getting the materials, golds, and orns for it to get a +1% on all stat? Also players who HoC into a class they don't want to play/hate (Summoner) makes it like a punishment for them, because they have to go though what they hate. I see no problem there. 🤣

[lone flume]

just make anguished endless more difficult so no class can benefit from it

[boreal saddle]

Scorched earth

[fathom apex]

What if... hear me out here, Odie puts a "Cap on total Orns gained" from infinity to 1B? Thoughts?

[fathom apex]

https://tenor.com/view/hope-nuke-truth-nuke-half-life-half-life-3-valve-gif-7775989612184395817

[twilit pumice]

Or simply an absolute orn cap of 10B (not only the shown value). 🤔 Even with AL200 that's enough for 20 ALs, but then you cannot HoC only once to farm Orns for the rest of your life. This would also create a level playing field for new players who have not already farmed orns to infinity. (Yes, because of this thread, I have farmed orns beyond this cap, too...)

[fathom apex]

I think this will provide further bias to the players that have reached endgame and is farming orns at this point because it makes New Players/Midgame players not have access to GSA's power, while the Endgame players have the luxury to farm it more before it's nerfed to the ground. It's a very hard thing to balance if really gives hard probs

[twilit pumice]

I think many are already way beyond 10B orns. So I would just cut-off the balance >10B (including orns already farmed), but orn farming would still be accessible to old and new players. So instead of a nerf for new players only, this nerf would equally hit everybody.

[fathom apex]

What would be funny if they plan to nerf it, people might start panic farming to make the most of it. imagine if they locked in and made it to 5000 Floors

[true bronze]

Pretty impossible rn, highest floor count i seen was 4.2k and it was done when summoner could use deity summons

Also, yea def ppl are way above in orns, im sitting on 25b rn and my friend is sitting at past 10x that.

[restive turtle]

me personally it'd be a lot of fun if we make everyone start at 1m orns and we start farming from there :p

[stiff marsh]

Why? People would just farm 20-200 bil orns in one day with GSA 😂

[twilit pumice]

We were talking about implementing a hard cap, e.g., of 10B orns, so farming 20-200B would be meaningless. This nerf would affect everybody, not just new players. And you cannot just HoC to GS for a day and never again. However, I can't imagine that this will go through; I guess there would be a lot of complaints whereas nerfing "unknown" new players is much easier... 🤷

[quick gyro]

Capping the orn economy because one class is busted at getting them instead of fixing said class would definitely be a choice…

[true bronze]

You can't cap rn, unless you'd take away alot ppl orns but then they wasted hours of thier time. You can't cap without another problems.

[restive turtle]

nah like all of us start to 1m after disabling anguished endless

lets make it chaotic

[tidal wyvern]

Let delete orns and everything that cost orns transfer to gold cost. Since both are meanigles currency now.

[twilit pumice]

As I said above: "I guess there would be a lot of complaints" 😂

[lone flume]

if nobody can't do anguished endless will anything get better?

[ivory breach]

Personally, Orns and Gold are the least interesting thing to farm in Orna.
I can't see it ever being anything other than "find out most efficient farm" + "just do that single thing a ton"
So I have no issues with orns/gold being "solved" at T10/T11.
Potions are another thing where getting enough was difficult at earlier tiers, but a non-issue at T10+ which I'm also OK with.

I think the material hunt for ascensions and other stuff is much more interesting.
There is at least not a single activity that is the best for getting all types of materials at once the fastest.

In theory, proofs/shards can get you all materials,
but you might be waiting days/weeks for the right material(s) to roll around.
So farming for that specific material in dungeons/raids can still end up being faster.

As a side note,
I think Gurnnink is being fair in principal by saying there shouldn't be a class disparity as huge as GSA and everything else.
but counter question
Do you really want to have to spend 10x as much time on Endless grinding for Orns?
(I'm assuming GS would be nerfed rather than other classes getting buffed to be on-par with GS)
Seems like most people don't actually like grinding endless that much, so making people spend at least 10x longer on it seems like it might be a net negative?

[tidal wyvern]

Even pre GS orns wasnt that hard to get. For most classes (looking at poor gilga). In hour I could get orns for 3-4 ALs. Mats took me waaay more time. So I always said "orn farm take you single% of your gameplay". At least with gear and ALs, not so easy for more fresh people (towers cost pretty much for instance). So I did endless runs few times a year. Current GS just turned them to complete joke. Which is sad?

As I said, I farmed 40bil in 4 endless in less than 6 hours. And my total orns combined in almost 6y gameplay before that are 34bil orns. 🙃

I have several endless videos on my yt. Around discord laying several my long runs with comparison, stretching over couple of years. Endless used to be best way to get exp in old times, not really that good for orns. We used to run hard dungeons for orns. Orns used to be much slower. 1t ultima endless and later DAra upgrade made them much faster....but current GS stomp them to the dust.

[prime bronze]

due to this topic, I went and tried this method, using the yelmogus gear. I found the set up easy (required much less class switching, just switching out gear), and I gave it a few tries using summon ancient dragon as my main summon. I do think that I'm either doing something wrong or the gains in this thread were massively overstated or only gained by those with many ascension levels.

I Heart of Changed my ascension levels over to summoner and did much better, as I then understood what was meant by ascension levels being multiplicative (factored in after all the summon gear boosts were added together). Still, while the set up seemed smoother, I didn't do that much better than I did when I was a Diety Ara. Eventually your summon damage can't surpass what you need.

Especially with the real limiter (especially for me, being stuck on the material fogstone), being materials not orns, and other classes that can also do well (like diety ara with its massive stat boosts)....maybe summoner being the best at endless...this is something we should or can all be OK with?

[stiff marsh]

Few questions - did you have anguoshed gear? And you were using AD instead of mammoth, did you give your summons berserks?

[prime bronze]

Yes, full anguished gear, which was very helpful. I was using AD instead of mammoth, I was using a single berserk on the ADs (from the berserk mushroom). I'm assuming that if I had mammoths, they could sustain health with multiple berserks, but I used what I had to see how much better it was than my other methods of endless. it was great, but I didn't think it was so good as to warrant changes that may have unintended consequences in other aspects of summoner gameplay and especially for early players with less than 20 AL

[true bronze]

There's mistake, you want full zerks with mag buffs

[tidal wyvern]

You literally could have x2.25 higher dmg just from those missing zerks.

My single mammoth was doing higher dmg on f1400 ang20 than my DAra on f700 mel0.

[twilit pumice]

Have you ever tried to switch to semi orn Gear in high floors? I am quite sure that your max damage is much higher than that of mammoth but you just don't have enough pen (don't get me wrong here, of course GS gets more orns, but still you could increase your Dara orn outcome).

[tidal wyvern]

Ultima/seq is ~40% less orns then seal3. The drop is huge.

And yes. Even ultima got sucked really quickly. 🙂

Mammoths at f1400 was still doing way over 1mil dmg.

[twilit pumice]

Even my AL10 Dara can do >1 million damage, but of course not against high def/res. So switching 1 orn for 1 mag item should easily increase your damage by 500k+.

[tidal wyvern]

Usually it is not even worth to switch to ultima in safe spot, rather push as hard as you can with seal3. Rather to run more endless with seals.

[twilit pumice]

But for seals build you just reach the point earlier that you don't have enough pen. And going deeper should be much more profitable, even if you lose a 1.6x orn multiple.

[tidal wyvern]

Not really. It is about luck. I take safe spot as f600 with seals. I can die after. If I switch to ultima and push onther 200-300 floors, it just cost me time with the gains closing to f600 seals at the end of the run. If I just choose to push with seals until I die, I can sometimes get even to f800 with luck ...which gave me way more. And if not, I usually run 3-4 endless in quick session, since each takes only 30 minutes top usually. Ultima is not worth it for me....anyway, I do it sometimes. And again, even ultima dmg is not mammoth level. 😄 (and we are still talking single mammoth level in high anguish)

[twilit pumice]

This screenshot is from your very same run. Even w/o weak, this clearly shows that you can do more than enough damage - you are just lacking pen, which you could easily increase with some more mag

[tidal wyvern]

which you could easily increase with some more mag

So switching to Heretic robe? It is only spot to gain some mag. Or do you know about any other? Which would make seal3 mult (x180) and ultima (x107) downgrade to whooping x65 orns. 🙃 No, not even closely worth it. I would get orn gains as at start of the run with seal3. 😅 Not to mention, any miss/2nd chance = death for me anytime. Also this increase would be still too low for zerk fallen bosses. Which can all oneshot me in those floors.

Also It is with t.mag+++ and old ultima weak. So comparing it to the one above, this dmg would be 6 / 2.5 / 2 = 1.2mil. 🤷‍♂️

1.4-1.5 mil was my mammoth dmg at f1400. 🤷‍♂️ Idk what are you even trying to compare. 😅 I ran so many orn endless I dont want to even count them, back when Zipper made stupid numbers in them and everybody was "whooo what" I was proving that Deity (old deity) could do the same or better. I know what dmg I can do, I just tried what mammoths can do. Same AL for both.

[twilit pumice]

I would probably go with FSS and switch the robe against high def/res. This would substantially increase mag and res, while def stays constant.

With ang12 you would even have no orn decrease. And no relevant malus. And around +20% m1, which would be enough to compensate the hp increase of enemies.

[tidal wyvern]

Switch the robe like ...on different floors? This isn't about getting as high as possible, but increasing orn/hour as much as possible. Which again play into card for seals3 running till death and pray to get as high as possible. Any switching in floors is no-go for this.

So I would have higher M1, ~similar orn, while enemy HP/res will rise same way? Not really helpful right?

[twilit pumice]

Let's forget anguish for a second. Just with FSS, your mag should increase by around 15%, right? If you currently reach F800 in a good run, you should reach F940 instead (15% more enemy stats). If my calculations are correct, this would result in 57% more orns if full orn, so around 35% more orns semi orn. With 35% orns vs (940-800)/800=17.5% floors, you would have double orn efficiency per floor (= per minute). And you can skip another setup.

[tidal wyvern]

Agree, but it is really simplified. I won't look into that huge orn difference you put there 😅 just ....

F800 in a good run, you should reach F940

It is all enemy stats - HP, res and dmg. Zerk amount. The run is flip coin after f600 becouse with each floor more and more enemy can survive and one shot you back. I usually have to several shot many fallen enemies and high HP ones, or ultima them. I can still zero enemy dmg against many, but with FSS this would also drop down a lot. So I don't think it would increase the floor amount by much, if any. It is same question if add Snotra after that floor, it basically means death sentence by any enemy.

And that is pre f600. I just take all those give me 0 dmg back. After f600 it getting more and more common with more and more enemies able to kill me. 🙂

It is funny when everybody want to nerf class from screenshots with massive buffs and super high dmg, but usual any runs - not just endless, but dungeon too - are rather about surviving the lowest dmg you output. Like - with current deity nerf - my temps are barely ig for both dungeons and raids. They can appear for couple floors, but then they are gone again. Yes, I can swap to full duration mode and completly kick of crit for instance - but dmg output is sligthly worse, so why to do that. 😅

[tight dagger]

Another thing is AD have much less pen then mammoths

And their omnimancy spell is only 2 elements ( dragon,fire ) 2000-3000 move ( so it can hit much less or kinda on par )

Mammoth has a 3 elemental omnimancy spell (fire,water,earth) 3000 power

On average mammoth hits much more then AD, and debatably besides HP has higher stats then AD as well ( also a collat passive ), dark immunity can be a little trouble but AD faces harder walls then mammoth

On average most summoners with low ang ( 10-15 ) and low AL (20-40) won't make it to floor 1k, without changing sets constantly ( cycling T.buffs, stasis, bloodpact, ect ) it takes considerable amount of time and patience if you do want to go higher floors, especially with any summon but mammoth 😅

[tidal wyvern]

On average most summoners with low ang ( 10-15 ) and low AL (20-40) won't make it to floor 1k, without changing sets constantly ( cycling T.buffs, stasis, bloodpact, ect ) it takes considerable amount of time and patience if you do want to go higher floors, especially with any summon but mammoth 😅

That I agree. I think they can hit constantly f700-800 with what you said (and what I saw) - full buffed mammoths for that ang. But in almost same time as me and x1.7 more orns than me on AL160. 😅

[tight dagger]

We'd also be assuming this summoner nearly has a year's worth of event gear as well 😅 ( counting, ally chance gear, dispurse gear, optimal summon stats gear, riftlocks, stasis gear, pact gear, dullahan gear, lugus, ect )

As someone who's done endless a lot, you don't do it in full orn gear unless you have the AL to brute force it, zero RS just punishes you if you aren't prepared, cycling T.buffs, stasis switch, bloodpact/lifepact switch is needed for the lower AL playerbase, which can take time to constantly switch too on top of your 15 minute ish set up, you'd probably be looking at floor 500 within an hour and after 500 the smallest of mistakes ( either summon AI or you overlook an enemy with mystic feather passive or redline ) and you'll end your run quickly

[tidal wyvern]

Yea, but you are still talking about the long nasty runs which is for screenshots and posts of "higher orn I made". I'm talking normal profitable runs. Worth of doing...

You need Yelm set. And it is sufficient in common quality. Then you need 2 banners, which you can get anytime asking kingdom mates to drop you couple moondrops - again, common quality. Ally effect chance set from fomorians is I guess also a bit pain in the ass, since it isn't twice a year as Yelm (or you have to live with 5% items).

I never need pact, stasis, dullahan, lugus, etc in my runs.

You need any gear with summon stats. As basic summon stats are just small drop. Anguish are higher. I don't know where you took 15 minute of setup? It took me 5-6 min max. And it took me** full hour including buffing** to reach slightly over floor 1000.

I assume the ang10-15 and AL20-40 mammoths will oneshot everything up until floor500. Easily just enough with stun darts. As I did up to floor1200. Once something starting to survive, it can kill you ...and it has to be smart enough to pick you as target as it is 1/6 chance. And that will again happen only against handful of enemies.

And to add, we have those AL20-40 summoners in our kingdom (not main summoners, just want their orns), running this basic runs. Reaching floor ~800 constantly. Doing more orns then I ever did. 🙂

[tight dagger]

I was more speaking from a low AL/ang perspective on that event gear ect

As I said you can AL brute force it in which you don't need pacts/t.buff cycles ect

But you can't AL bruteforce it at a common lvl XD which is around ang 10-15, AL 20-40

You'd need pacts/stasis/t.buff cycles, ect and the event gear to do said methods

And no it takes me much more then 6 minutes to set up, but I also pass more buffs on my summons then most would ( asteria stance/tree of life/towering ect ), asteria stance along on at least 3 summons can take nearly 100 floors or more XD

Buffs you can skip as a high AL, not buffs you can skip if low AL tbh

There's definitely things you can skip as high AL and I'm not denying that

[tidal wyvern]

endless 2 year ago 🙃
new DAra (and AL160 ofc) push it 2.5x to those numbers
GSA with ang2.0 push it to 20x those numbers (for me, for some even 40x cuz higher mel)

[tight dagger]

Tbh since the introduction of ang 1.0 averaging 500 mil orns per hour ( at least for hoa ) can be done with no AL XD

On the endless topic, it's not nearly a big gameloop for AL efficiency and more so a huge exp income

[tidal wyvern]

Interestingly enough ppl I talked to back then, didn't make 500mil/hour in one-shotting ang50 bosses in full orn gear. 🤷‍♂️

[tight dagger]

We were, this wasn't even the full extent of it

We had some crazy people ( ornate bogs ) making upper close to 15-20 mil orns per zerk boss, drastically less now cause HP scaling, but you can still average depending on your ang 8 mil per

[twilit pumice]

I think we have several topics here.

1. GS is better in endless than Dara -> yes, for several reasons, incl. AL multiplicative ang stats and snapshotting -> as GS you can go as deep in full orn as with max strength gear. As Dara, you could of course also go much(!) deeper with your best gear.
2. I know Daras which reached F550 with Ultima build in full orn as AL0. So let's not compare mediocre Dara runs with extremely good GS runs.
3. With GS AL 29, I usually reach around F700-800, when I go full orn w/o switching classes on high floors. But yes, with some effort (and a lot of class switching); my good runs can go to F1000 (but even with switching classes, yesterday i died on F700).

[lone flume]

just remove gs classline and endless from orna and hoa

[tidal wyvern]

2. I made all comparison against me and my experience or experience of ppl who I tought how to do things - which is all pretty high end experience of orn gains. I never mentioned some "low AL deity".

Also luck is luck. I can die even pre f600. I can reach with same build sligthly over f800. 🙂 GS runs are also about luck, just hitting much further. Tbh one of my run I lost mammoth at f1150, still with 4 mammoths I reached almost f1500 before I died 😄 .

3. Is literally what I said.

[tidal wyvern]

Tho this is ang50 from ang1.0 screeshot? 👀

Anyway, it would be hard to search, but we talked in Deity channel in OL about that. Back when I was runnning a lot of endless. Pretty much several every week. Doing those statistics. HOA guys was 300-350 mil/hour nonstop boss farming when they did comparison for me - so some of them started endless cuz of those ...🤷‍♂️

Not to mention those world orns are constant. Endless gets better with each AL.

[tight dagger]

Yep ang 1.0 ang50

[tight dagger]

Though you can make more orns on ang 40 of 2.0 from world encounters, it's a lot longer of a fight ( HP scaling gets insane )

Ang 1.0 you could one shot bosses world farming and was much more efficient, ang 2.0 kinda killed worldfarming for lower AL players, you'd need AL and drastically better gear now then you once did

[twilit pumice]

I totally agree that with AL multiplicative ang stats (and 150 ALs), you have "a bit" too much power 😄 Thus, my focus is rather on low/no AL because there you can see better how much better GS is if you make ang stats AL additive.
In my endless runs, I know quite exactly which enemies will survive and attack themselves. So I switch to stasis for this round and finish them with my full orn gear. As Dara you don't have to switch classes/spec, but you could simply switch to a high def/mag loadout and switch back afterwards. From my experience, this is the main difference between a mediocre run and a good run.

Don't get me wrong, your Dara guide is extremely beginner friendly and helped me a lot for starting with endless. It requires no event gear etc, so I could easily farm orns with Dara/seals build (full orn F400+) after a few months in Orna. So it's really great for that purpose! But with better gear and more switching, I could do much better than that. And it would still require less event gear and switching than GS.

[tight dagger]

Those HOA testers weren't using the right spot or tactic probably ( party reset spawns in Olympia grounds ) cause even I as a summoner was killing 600 bosses per hour, given the 2 hits per kill, not 1, so I wasn't even doing it optimal but getting 4 mil orns per boss, in HOA worldfarming was MUCH better ang 1.0 then endless was for a lot of us, no AL requirement, no event requirement, just decent farming gear

But ofc I only saw mostly beo/deity/hera pulling it off in farming gear for the most part XD

But that is off topic so I do digress sorry 😅🙏

[paper spire]

Meh, buzz kill. Let the summoners have their cake.

[boreal saddle]

Like people can't just swap classes to run better on a different class

[true bronze]

Im not saying its not good idea, i do it too, however i don't like that new gear for that class is bad. Summoner dgs are alr mid, bad if you consider speed and party play, so i feel the gear for dgs should somehow help us, not just be another piece that's unusable bc yel is simply better.

[stiff marsh]

Frequently Argued Points

1. "Needs lots of gear and specific event summon"
   Not hard to do, just time gated. You don't need high quality of anything.
2. "Need AL to really abuse it"
   Not relevant, the problem begins at fairly low AL and gets worse exponentially
3. "You're only hurting casuals"
   The proposed changes in the thread have included lots of ways to only affect high end endless.
4. "Summoner should be good at endless"
   Nobody's asking for that to stop. We are asking for anguish to be difficult instead of making GSA runs easier so profits aren't egregious.
5. "Orns don't matter anyway"
   They will never matter again if we let people stockpile tens of billions to trillions of orns. I'd rather that not happen
6. "But people have already abused it"
   This was the same logic used for refineries. Abuse/exploits have to be cut off as early as possible, not allowed to get worse and worse.

[prime bronze]

good to know, thanks!

[restive turtle]

but refineries are laid back grinding endless isnt

you get mats from that, you dont from endless watchu gonna do with 100b orns? buy every single mats from what and where?

[bold jewel]

All of this heat, only for orns is mad

[quick gyro]

Endless isn’t? GS endless is literally spamming stun dart after following an easy guide for setup. You can get to F1000 without looking at the screen

[restive turtle]

i mean there's the lengthy set up, you have to watch ou constantly if this mob is stun dart immune and what not. Sure if u have like a bazillion amount of als you could brute force it i gues but its not like everyone can do that lol. Only a very small percentage of players can actually pull that off, what do u do with refineries again? oh just put the mats in there and go on with your life, watch a movie, go to sleep, touch a grass etc.

if everyone and any gs players couldve make it to floor 1k, everyone in hoa wouldnt be asking be on how to get past floor 500 and how to beat a zerk rs. Cus the issue is if your summons stats are not enough you'd hit a wall a zerk would zero out everything the summons throw at it. Im not sure if you guys have done it but me and baldrice taught some of the players on how to cycle t. buffs to go deeper and not run into penetration issues.

[twilit pumice]

I am not entirely sure whether you are interested in improving Dara endless anymore (as you farm orns with GS or you already have more than enough), but I will assume you are:

• Up to the floor where your pen is getting too low, you have max. orn gear.
• Then, you switch to semi-orn, e.g. FSS and a high def/res chest like arisen fey banshee robe.
• After switching, you should have around 15% more mag, 18% more pen, and aditionally 6% more def and 36% more res. Or you go for Arisen fey plagued/raven garb for more balanced stats (but banshee has another advantage: +3% pen). This mag/def/res increase should help you to go substantially deeper (as stated above: probably around 150 floors), which will quickly compensate your 65% orn loss - or you just see it as continuing with another run from F600-800, so skipping the first 600 low-orn floors. The orn loss would be similar to QC ultima build, but less risky as you have more def/res.
  (- And of course you could even additionally switch to qc ultima on high floors if you need even more pen.)
• Additionally, you can switch to high mag/def/res gear for otherwise deadly floors, and then switch back to semi-orn.
• And probably Penguin instead of Phoenix? Higher pet act for DC.
  These would probably be my main adjustments (in addition to considering anguish) if I would run Dara endless again.

[restive turtle]

btw you could make everything look overpowered you just need a high al and high anguish for endless. And the higher the anguish go the less floors you need to climb for a billion. At mel 20 around floor 500-600 is enough for to earn a billion, and im pretty sure a deity could pull that off with no issue. Gs will always go deeper because of how the class is made. And lets go back to mel, if a player is mel 30 it doesnt matter whether that player can go past 1k floors, because you would accumulate so much orns beacause of the orns % bonus from anguish. If your class can't do the same feat at a certain anguish, maybe thats the reality yk some classes aren't made to go deeper in endless.

[ivory breach]

With high enough AL sure.

AL 8 and Mel 10, and my max floor is 637 which did require actually looking at the screen.

[restive turtle]

if gs was really that broken for endless then why summoners with average als relative to their mel level are not pulling the same feat as the examples you guys are bringing up? why not every summoner are beyond 2k floors with 30b orns per 1 run, on some hasty generalization. Maybe that kind of feat only applies with players that has high al and high anguish dont u think? complain that its broken after abusing it is such an orna classic.

[stiff marsh]

Mel 10 at AL 8 floor 637 "required looking at the screen".

Meanwhile my AL 80 heretic at just above floor 600 max on mel 5 with semi-orn gear, pet swapping throughout the whole dungeon:
😐

[restive turtle]

https://tenor.com/view/walter-white-falling-fast-gif-18043850

me when my al 110 gsh isnt producing as much damage output as my al 10 heretic and al 15 dara in horde content

[paper spire]

I'm just tired of nerfs. Give more buff potentials!

[bold jewel]

That ain't gonna happen lol, it's only nerfs in this game

[stiff marsh]

You guys are crazy, every event this year has brought power creep

[twilit pumice]

You mean since Thursday?

[tidal wyvern]

I ran endless as full orn. I ran endless in QC ultima. I ran combined. I ran full mag endless. I ran pure depth endless in full def/res gear with ultima or other things. Those runs really didn't help to get much further, as even in full def/res enemies just kill you even around f800. (maybe good measure for that is looking at endless record at OL, at Heretic/Beo/Deity and which build get them where...seal3/ultima just sux hard even in full mag/def gear and get you nowhere 😉 ). And the dmg go down super fast. The things you wrote are just your assumption which doesn't work as you think. That mag/def/res will help you in way less floors than you think, you won't push that much far. Even if it did (which won't - really), anything beside full orn is really waste of time. My hourly record is still just seal3 pushing/dying/starting over again.

QC build orns at F850 are same as seal3 in F450. There is no reason for me to switch really. Not to mention those floors above F450, or even F600 in seal, those are gains I can't never push to with QC ultima. Not to mention swapping out 1 more gear. Which would put it to F300 gains. So yea, I would rather start new and push as far as I can to die with seal3. Again, caring total depth with switching, changing build, or don't run full orns just result in less hourly orns.

[twilit pumice]

"QC build orns at F850 are same as seal3 in F450" -> No, first, it should be F505 (seal3), second, you ignore higher chance of zerk encounters on higher floors, which make higher floors much profitable. Total gains after F850 qc should be around factor 3 of F450 seals 😉

[velvet rock]

The amount of power creep we've seen over the past few years is insane. Usually when Odie "nerfs" something he tries to please everyone and ends up buffing something else

[paper spire]

I know how to fix this. Buff everything!
Players fall in love with their various ways of play and even if it is unbalanced, nerfing stuff is disheartening. Whereas if they introduce ways to buff out the imbalances, those that are happy will stay happy and those that screem victim have no grounds to stand on and can play their favorite way without feeling the need to HoC and change for Meta. Everything just has its counters to one another, even if rng based.

[stiff marsh]

Wow what a novel idea, buff everything! Surely we won't run out of content or interest when everything is stupid good and no thought or strategy goes into any content 👍

[restive turtle]

if struggle is the objective play gsa for 1 year and use it for everything :p

[stiff marsh]

The objective is balance, I'm happy to buff gs in other content along with nerfing anguish endless

[still wraith]

I was waiting for this response. Read from the top. Iv been gs since it came out iv NEVER reached over 300 endless regardless of anguish I'm 21ish AL and I die most cases in setup. This has never been my story that I can just hop into endless and prosper. It takes me like 20 mins to set up sometimes an hour. Also I just found out about yelg gear but the only time iv done a yelg tower i died floor 2(i digress) please do not try and say ANY summoner because no i clearly cannot and im closer to the benchmark of your casual-advanced player. I do not however represent the ELITE/End game(t12 imo) anguish 100-200+(ALS) sides of the gs community. It makes 0 sense nerfing an entire class because 1% is doing stuff that at this point aswell as for the next like 4 years I won't even be able to do. :t

[tidal wyvern]

Yep. This is one of our guild mates. 5y+ gameplay. AL30 beo in time of starting his gs endless. This was his starting runs (that first 530 was literally his first run the other day). Dont sounds like your kind of endgamer? He had AL10 summoner during his first runs and those screenshots. He pumped few more ALs later, he is bit over 20 now in gs and his floors are also higher. 🤷‍♂️

Even pre-anguish-anything gs was class which was able to get deepest. If you werent able to get to 300, that kind of your fault. 🙃

So anyway, this guy, non-gs, with just scrap gs gear and things needed for buffing, ended with same gains as me. And then ppl whi can run higher mel and have actually ALs get exponentionaly more.

[still wraith]

Did he show videos of his setup?

[tidal wyvern]

Well, according to abyss videos/gs endless guide ofc. Same as everybody.

[still wraith]

😭😢 yall need to share then because iv yet to break 300, in "the only content we excel at" also please show me his "scrap gs gear"

[tidal wyvern]

https://youtu.be/F8-1DfJaOiQ?si=FDXcP1YbAZLAFTcP

https://youtu.be/ALGD9T-p8xU?si=zkE22EdE3rvm56hO

[twilit pumice]

You can also have a look here 😉
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vTmr8V0BhXSCUBwIPoUSnmHr_NPS0f2sKRyHL8G6_uBTcEHCm5r9Y6PeoBoxTqY11k8Bt9Gb525CwVt/pubhtml

[still wraith]

I'm asking about your friend. Because assuming his class isn't summoner that dosent help me if he's using yelg gear that I couldn't even get as a summoner main i.e it's my only class.

[true bronze]

The requirement of summoner being alot better than deity in endless is yel gear, other wise you can't pass every buff and it'll lower your dmg by alot

[still wraith]

Ah! OK so then that entire blirb is mostly irrelevant to players who cannot even get to yelg. I.e majority of actual summoner MAINS.

[twilit pumice]

There are very different opinions what "easy" means. I would say the requirement is very high as you need a lot of different classes, event items and so on while other say "you don't even have to farm high quality gear".
There is some truth in both views.

[still wraith]

Then what exactly is the point here? If my barrier for entry for better setup; is an event that's no longer active and presumably a non summoner class in order to even kill yelg. which also requires me farming that classes equipment and event only gear to make it good enough to get ANY yelg gear. Because I don't care about quality i just want to be able to actually go deep endless attall.

[tidal wyvern]

You literally need to finish 1 tower to get common set. And thats it. You need it only for buffing phase. The event was just in december. In time when everybody already know about gs endless exploit. That you didnt isnt our fault. Apperently the proposed nerfs wouldnt even touch you then lol....(And apperently the event will be held again, third time in ~half year )

[still wraith]

Yh my issue was with finishing a single tower but now that I have gsh I can do that easily. Setup is what kills me most in endless. Also WHO MADE THID POST. can they please specify >GSA< because im sick of the summoner hate en masse. It makes no sense.

[tidal wyvern]

Actually propose nerf from me is anguish gear bonus not being multiplicative with AL only in endless. So pretty much no to low AL summoners wouldnt care much. Targering only big fishes. 🙃

Lets skip the part where AL0 perfect gear gs on high mel is able to farm same or more than me on DAra. 😅

[twilit pumice]

I think the yel event (wyrmhunt) will be soon? The last yel was only due to winter week, before in summer iirc

[tidal wyvern]

july-december-january

[still wraith]

I'm for balence, but in the spirit of "equality" in orna there generally is none, each class is so drastically different that the precedence needs to be made that classes do not need nerfs. They need balence and in the case specifically for summoner SPECIFICALLY GSA, (who chronically are placed dead last in all content except endless) should adress egregious offenses like this in its own class via anguish content.

I.e X% ward fails should be read as
X% ward fails, pets fail to block, summons fail tp block, second chance fails ect.

[twilit pumice]

I guess at least regarding the most important outcome of this thread (Ang summon Stats) we absolutely agree 🤣

[tidal wyvern]

Yea, summon block really isnt that big in pve. Enemy inteligence when they pick 1 of 6 targets is your "block". 😅

[still wraith]

This being said, this entire post REPRESENTS A SYSTEM BALENCE ISSUE WITH ANGUISH. not a class issue requiring any nerfs to any class. That's my take on this.

[tidal wyvern]

Yea, that is true. GS can get deeper the more anguish you use (summoms getting stronger). And getting more orns from just pumping those anguish. ALs make this exponentional.

Tbh fastest and easiest proposition was just to turn off anguish for endless. Now. Until smth better is done.

[still wraith]

Furthermore in events like this there should be a comprehensive enemies Ai buff. Enemies trash mob enemies should continue as they have been. However bosses, especially player class bosses should obtain better more aggressive AI. I.e RS should only target players. Making summons block chance matter. Other things sould be enemies are aware of immunity and only use effective attacks. This while adjusting Anguish malus to say "reduce/ignore ward & summon block chances" will quickly see less 2k floor 200 AL endless runs.

[tidal wyvern]

Well, ehh? My enemies didnt have chance to play until floors I cant event imagine to get into with deity for instance. F1200 was sometimws first fallens with turn. When mammoths was stupid. But then again, once my mammoth die too soon (f1150 somehow, i never tried to heal any)...and my 4 mammoths was enough to push to almost f1500. 🙃

[twilit pumice]

In the meantime, you can also try Deity Ara endless. There exists a very good, beginner friendly endless guide, which doesn't require any event gear or AL (mainly because Apex passive is like having 100 free ALs) 😄 So no HoC or anything required. At least for me, it was also fun to try Deity class mainly for this purpose. 😉

[still wraith]

And while we're on this topic introduce fallen GS & fallen celestial classes to endless after floor 200. Again making any "player class" "fallen characters" aggressively target players because they are fallen heros they know that heros are the issue not pets/summons.

[tidal wyvern]

Yea deity is good for start, but really it is not getting much better with ALs. Just slowly moving up. GS is now quite opposite with AL/ang combined.

[twilit pumice]

Yes, the general expectation is that 100 AL doubles your strength, but for Dara it is effectively only 50%. 2 sides of the same medal 🤷

[still wraith]

I can't play other classes they arnt fun for me. But gs feels bad everywhere. And its hilarious because the one time I feel like, wow! I killed amori in one try! Sone gs drops a clip of them killing her in 1 attack. Making my 5 minute kill feel like a joke. Then there's posts like this asking to nerf an entire classline due to an issue w anguish not inherently the class itself.

[tidal wyvern]

It is not that different for other classes really. Rs runs 1 HP full passive. Heretic at 90% low mana regen. Old DAra also run low mana and 60-70% passive. Current DAra is just easiest to sustain.

[tidal wyvern]

Nobody ever said in this channel to nerf whole classline. Everybody who is speaking here and want nerf - wants it only to endless. And not to burn gs, just make it with line to other classes, keeping it as top endless class, just not 10x better. Cmon.....

[true bronze]

Ngl i alr accepted gsa endless should be somehow nerfed but would any ORN member here be able to ask what's odie opinion about this? Im very courious what he thinks about it.(Also please no nerf untill end of exp event, i need my badge )

[tidal wyvern]

I just found out my 4 endless gave me 37bil exp, while all my previous exp gain was 27bil combined. And I even didnt run exp mode - as I had lost helmet, not using exp statue all the time, not to even speak about super exp potion lol....crazy numbers.

[true bronze]

Yup, im at 350 overlvled without exp buffs like shrine super exp pot and tomes, would be higher if i had more mel lvls but 17 is enough for naw

[still wraith]

It's not a nerf issue tho. It's an anguish & enemy Ai issue. If bosses targets the player, and Anguish options were Class specific. Anguish would be Anguish. Level with me, if "less apex gain. Pets ignore orders, less summon block chance, 40% chance to use random flask ect" were in anguish instead of one size fits all approach to the maluses. That would fix the issue no?

[twilit pumice]

Enemy AI wouldn't change much. Most of the time, your summons kill the enemy before he can act. Summon block chance is (almost) meaningless, too, for the same reason.

[true bronze]

Depends, you can spam provoke 1 and 2 on summons and be untuchable by mobs

[still wraith]

This I'm already including to the "agresisve enemy ai" some way almost all bosses are immune to poison and debuffs. Just treat forcing attack choices as a debuff.

Also the biggest issue with endless imo, isn't its scaling it's its floor. Raise the floor of endless fixes things exponentially. Look again at every peice of content on launch, then look at towers. Towers has the single highest floor and the second highest ceiling. Why not raise the floor of endless to the floor of towers. Where as it scales it scales there is few mobs with higher fs than succubus however there are plenty of mobs with fs higher than base players. This should be a thing at floor 1 of endless and should persist.

Adjusting enemy AI to target players only, changing the start point of floor 1 endless to the same difficulty(base setting) of towers at start. And changing ANGUISH to be per class regardless of which class you switch to. Would both fix the issue and issues to come. Vs nerfing 1 class in the only content it excels at, and later down the line every class inevitably will just creep it out of existence then we enter this place again only it will be a summoner main asking for justice and getting laughed at by players who don't even play gs.

[ivory breach]

What's your ward and summon situation?

When I got my Yel gear I was using GSA to get to the boss (and in general to clear towers).
I was using Bone Mammoth + Panda and a bunch of ward gear.
At most AL 6 on my summoner at the time.
and then ASG Beo with little/no AL to defeat Yel.

Though I have no reason to think I couldn't have beaten Yel with summoner.
It just would have taken much longer since damage would be lower.

[still wraith]

I couldn't tell you shortly after getting packed up I vowed to not touch gs until gsh was fixed and it was so now im back. I haven't rouch gsa since then ill check. It verry likely was user error how he said. However let's move this exact convo to #👋│general to not block up thread.

[tight dagger]

I wouldn't go as far as to say "any summoner can do this"

That's an exaggeration, but any summoner with the proper gear to pass the buffs needed should be able to make it to floor 500 at least ang 4, with all gear up to ang 4

Not "any summoner" has access to mel 15 and up or access to the event gear/summons needed for it to reach deeper floors

Yel tower is EXTREMELY rough for summoners especially low AL ones, wyrmhunt in general is pain and misery cause we don't have any AOE options to clear the dragons before they hit you a few times, you gotta B-line to yel forget the shards it's not worth losing the key imo, then you pretty much need to 0 yel with rhada soul adorns, dragon res amity 80% and rhada gear ( tanky gear in general ) and do the slow 20 minute fight to aquire your dispurse gear XD

Most new summoners aren't even going to survive the yel tower or titan fight XD

[bold jewel]

So when's rs buff? If he's gonna please everyone, at least make a temporary buff for them

[thick wolf]

5 - basically everybody that wants those orns already has it. The damage is already done.
6 - Too late. We knew this existed, we waited till everybody who needed can have their cake, now its basically gatekeeping. Everyone who abused it willingly should be punished if its removed, else its another rick get richer, and says clearly "yes, abuse every system, you wont get a payback anyway".

[stiff marsh]

I'd love to see your evidence that everyone has already abused this

[thick wolf]

Either let it be, or punish the ones who explited it. Its either one; everything else is just a great way of top players wanting to control the game, have everything they need, and then kill the tap again, which is not the first time, and most likely wont be the last.

[thick wolf]

Sadly, i can't check the orn counts everybody has. Neither can i Check with the tools Odie has. An unreliable way would be checking the top 100's Endless records, but again, there were more of those exploits, so it wont do a lot. There is screenshots of people using this, this is known for a while - best we got.

I can also try to wiggle my way in all top guild discords and go check there. But i dont really care enough about that. It just baffles me that is a serios argument. After the conversations in this channel alone.

[bold jewel]

That does make sense tho, the richer do get richer and the players who can't do it yet stay the same

It's either u early to do the exploits as efficient as possible than be late to do it/ can't do it anymore cuz patched

[thick wolf]

Its super simple:

• Find heavy exploit
• Tell all strong players, all your friends etc
• wait till the events needed for the gear arrive, farm it quickly
• Abuse it as much as possible
• If you have enough, go make a thread on maincord and complain about the exploit
• General public is now aware, Odie, who wants ppl to have fun, now feels pushed to act
• ???
• Profit

[stiff marsh]

It baffles me that your argument is "everyone has abused it, might as well give up and keep it in the game" simultaneously with arguments of "only the top 1% can do this" all the while ang 2.0 is not even 6 months old

[bold jewel]

This is every exploits gameplan yea

[stiff marsh]

Pretending that people like me (who haven't abused this btw) are really just trying to maliciously gatekeep others is insane levels of paranoia

[bold jewel]

But is orns really a issue for the game? If endless did give us a lot of mats like diluted memories then I can see the nerf being justified

[quick gyro]

People will go to ridiculous lengths to try to defend their class’ OP shit from nerfs. That’s the reason why most threads can’t be taken seriously, people just can’t be objective

[thick wolf]

There is nothing to give up. Also never said that only Top players can, as you laid out its super easy with anguish gear, no matter the quality, and farming into melancholy does'nt take power, just time.

All im beeing vocal about is either keep it; let it be used by everybody, not the inner circle - some dont have mammoths for example, they can't do it.

Or remove it immediately and punish those who have used it actively.

The plan of posting a thread here instead of beeing for a nerf, just making everyone aware is genius, its the most effective way to get another scott free get out of jail card.
I would just really like this to not be the case anymore.

Also, i have never said you have used it. I never asked, nor assumed. Calling me paranoid is... A weird choice.

[stiff marsh]

See FAP #5
#1449963223724855448 message

Edit: if we let this go unchecked there never WILL be another use for orns, because every cost will be a joke

[bold jewel]

But there's not much u can do with orns besides max upgrading your towers or AL

Like if endless was a mat farming method like diluted memories then I can see the nerf on why it's OP

[stiff marsh]

You're saying this thread (which I made) and the arguments within are basically gatekeeping. I don't know what else to call it besides paranoia

I'm here asking for this to get nuked before more damage is done, I don't know what you mean by "get out of jail card" when I'm not involved

[bold jewel]

The games already grindy as is, and u wanna worry about orns

[thick wolf]

Im simply asking for either letting this persists or punishing those who used it when it gets nuked.

I dont ask for removing it and letting the ones who used it keep the billions of orns and having a severe advantage compared to anybody else.

Cannot be much to ask for. Definitely better then just getting rid of it and then letting another Refinery worthy discrepancy live among the others.

[stiff marsh]

I disagree. At the end of the day, the people who abused it did it within the game's mechanics just like refineries, just like Beos using stasis to nuke high ang raids in seconds, etc. It's too good to remain in the game but those that abused it don't deserve "punishment". Plus, it's literally never been done that way so idk why this would be different

[thick wolf]

So we still keep the rich get richer alive and the way to the top is raw cheese and abuse, and any level of it will never result in a punishment. What a great mentality to keep a game alive, absolutely appreciated 👍

This thread degenerated into the same thing it always does. I wish one day we have enough players who want a fair game instead of the constant bandaids applied to serious problems. I guess this day is not today.

[still wraith]

What about my proposed plan isn't fair. It's the system not the class that's broken

[stiff marsh]

How exactly is this a "rich get richer" situation when you admitted it yourself that it's fairly easy to access and do?

Ending the abuse is precisely what is needed to make the game more fair

[quick gyro]

I’ve stated a million times here that I don’t think GS should be nerfed. Simply disable anguished endless and I’ll be content

[still wraith]

Phil, doesn't fixing the ai raise the floor and make it punishing PER CLASS fix this?

[stiff marsh]

You're asking for 3 game-wide changes unrelated to endless to fix the problem with gs anguished endless. No, it does not fix the problem even then

It also heavily nerfs GS across all content if enemies always target the player lol

[still wraith]

How do you figure, if the floor is raised in endless and & bosses in endless target the player. And anguish targets the player per class affect anguish in other areas?

[stiff marsh]

Every class would be affected by any kind of "floor raise" (still unsure what you mean by this); any change to AI would apply to the whole game, not just endless; and I'm not totally sure what the goal is with the last thing, different anguish levels per class would be a nightmare to manage and serve no real purpose

[velvet rock]

Rs is not a bad class but yeah it's well known to be odies least favorite

[bold jewel]

I just feel sorry for those beginner rs that must suffer in their early t10 experience

[restive turtle]

exactly my point lol, glad someone's getting it

[fathom apex]

The damage is already done, while we keep speaking here about this GS Endless, some player out ther is already farming orns till cap. Either Odie's gonna do something to fix and balance it where everyone is happy or let it continue. But I get that no solution will make one group or the other happy, there will aways those who will be displeased about changes.

[thick wolf]

I just really hate the mentally of let abusers abuse and then just have an unbalance of progress cause of it. Any other game provides rightful penalties, Orna is the only game where you can get away scott free with those things and it sickens me after all those years that the mentality to this is still the same.

[thick wolf]

Ending abuse involves punishing the abuser, else abuse is created towards the ones who didn't participate in it.

Either there is real justice, a real change, or it is a superficial bandaid that gives the message if FOMOing any exploit without any reprocussion; while leads to scenarios like this, where there is silence for months and the someone says something.

Stuff like this either has to go ASAP or you just create extreme discrepancies in progression. I would rather not have people who have tens and hundreds of billions of orns farmed in a few days or even one in this exploit just having all of those currency and never having to care about it while everyone else gets the tap closed and making a catchup with a somewhat similar time investment completely impossible. You can't want this for the community.

[fathom apex]

I mean it's not the players fault tbh, it's the system and since players like to min-max(manipulate) the system, we get stuffs like these, where the devs can't really do something.

[fathom apex]

If the punishment is given, would you agree of taking the ascension levels and the orns of the players that did the abuse? If so, most of the OG players will be mad. What punishment would be fitting to those abusers?

[thick wolf]

I get what you mean! Tho i disagree, chosing to do this very deliberate setup is a choice, seeing that something is wrong with the scaling is apparent pretty quickly, and well, yes, if we actually wanted this gone in a resonable time, Odie could have quickly disabled Anguish endless for a few days and looked for a fix. There was plenty and much reasonable options, that were not chosen, because he probably wasnt even made aware of this - or cause he wants us to have fun and doesnt really mind this at all until people pester him enough so he has to.

[fathom apex]

"Wasn't made aware" is not it. This GSA endless abuse was done far more months ago. I doubt it Odie did not see it.

[thick wolf]

I dont think taking away the ALs is reasonable. Usually mat blocks are way more annoying, at least IMO. Resetting the Orns to 0 would be a good punishment, if there was no code in track that keeps track.

You can check endless records and surely compare them to records before the exploit existed, surely seeing someone suddenly going from endless 500 to 2500 and them suddenly having 50 billion is suspicious.

But also, its work, and i honestly dont think its worth doing - but not doing it is just allowing this abuse mindset that is poison for the game continue. So its either let it go or remove it and punish for me, an inbetween bandaid is a dumb decision that only pleases those who either abused it, simply dont care about fairness or or dont care at all.

And yeah, i think he saw it. I think he said ti himself "wow, good for them! That seems fun!" (or something along the lines of "My plans of balancing the game twarted again!", smiled, and moved on. Hence why i love this guy.

[fathom apex]

"cause he wants us to have fun" I thought this was abuse. So there will always be a difference of fun and abuse? Is it abuse if people don't have fun anymore?

If its really a problem, why has not devs decided to fix it? Not make it a priority to balance GS Endless Ang.

This is the same as items being released, First Act became OP in pvp, Dev team decided to make it PvE only. They even fixed the Pet using Player spells. I doubt it's on top of their priority list.

[true bronze]

Odie was in this thread, pretty sure orn members inform him too?(Not sure), fact it wasn't changed nor commented by him, its safe to assume he want us either 1) having fun with it 2) wait with decision to make bigger nerf to it/change

[fathom apex]

Maybe the problem is too far gone to be fixed so they just let it be. I mean, it's a mechanic, Ang 2.0 made new problems for the GS Endless that it even took a while for people to get used to it and have a deeper understanding to the mechanics.

[thick wolf]

Basically this is where i stand. You can't act now without either punishing those who used it with a nerf, or you create a handful of players who got a nice 50% discount on potentially all future progression regarding powercreep.

So... Let it be. Make people aware it exists, make them have fun with it. Is not going to hurt the game at all, if everybody can do it. Its not like refineries where you have to play a city build sim instead of the game.

[fathom apex]

While RS still scrounging the crumbs of what's left in the buffs they give to other classes. Still redlining and fighting ward disabling debuff, niche event items, etc.

[lone flume]

maybe nobody can do anguished endless (since thread concern is gs exploiting anguished endless)

[restive turtle]

true lol and it's not like orns are gonna give u a fk ton of mats too so idk where this complaining is coming from. They say they don't care about HOW DEEP CAN GS go but rather the orn it accumulates. Like brother are you serious? But that is literally the reason why gs can get so much orns because it go deeper, go longer because of its innate playstyle. 1, gs can push like that cus it's literally 6v1. 2, None summoner class can still earn a fuck ton of orns, just up your anguish bro anguish orn % is the key to making this huge orn incomes. 3rd even if u can only reach 700 floors with heretic or deity you can still make a lot of profit as long you have a high anguish.

Oh because we do pet swapping and this and that, brother we do too lol. I have taught literally countless people from aethric on how to cycle t. buffs just so they can make it deeper in their runs. Not every player has 150+ als that can just brute force endless without t. buff cycling. Most players struggle yo ho past 1k and even reach 1k because of zerks zeroing out their summons' attack.

[bold jewel]

I find this thread pointless honestly, the people who are against GS endless is just worrying about orns of all things

You can only max upgrade towers with orns and upgrade your AL

[thick wolf]

I dont think any of this argument really is against GS going deep its just about worrying that Orns become pointless; so that supports your point if anything.

[bold jewel]

Only 2 things u can do with orns lol, yet they acting like the whole game is gonna be ruined cuz of a lot of orns

[velvet rock]

This thread should be about how anguish is making endless easier for gs instead of more difficult but people keep trying to make it about the orns

[twilit pumice]

You know what? I am running GS endless with Mimic head instead of lost helmet, which let me quickly reach the gold cap. And I continue because... more is always better. 😂 Oh no! Gold farming is broken, too! 🙀

[thick wolf]

it is a frequently brought up argument if the others run out; so its part of the discussion.
But yes, it should - but it never really was.

@twilit pumice Funny number go BRRRRRR

[bold jewel]

Everybody, it's time to nerf gold farming, -500% gold income, final decision lol

[twilit pumice]

But due to my low GS AL (no, I didn't HoC, and I will not HoC), until now I only farmed around 20B orns plus 4B for 5x F50 towers with endless. 90% after this thread started - "just in case". So please don't nerf endless, otherwise I would be ornless after my next 100 ALs 😭

So from an egoistic perspective, I really wouln't care (or if anything, I would have a relative advantage if it is heavily nerfed). But still I would either do nothing or, as proposed several times, just change anguished summon Stats from AL multiplicative to AL additive. For endless only.

[thick wolf]

Which would keep you have this amount of orns, giving you a massive advantage over others, while others cant aqquire it in the same timeframe anymore - which creates a big discrepancy - which is my point.

[twilit pumice]

#1449963223724855448 message

[true bronze]

Nerf it all you want but wait untill next month, i got orns, naw just exp event and badges

[thick wolf]

Yeah. I get that. That is honestly a reasonable idea, but also would punish those who farmed as much orns without, which prolly wont be a lotta ppl...

There really is no winning anymore i feel, this existed soooo ling

[twilit pumice]

I would lose 50% of my orns, too, but that would be alright for me. But of course not for everybody...
However, I can't imagine that there are more than a handful of players who had >10B orns before GS endless. 🤷

[thick wolf]

Still 10B orns is a lot-lot to have compared to others who dont. That takes a chwile to farm! And the way to do so would have gotten deleted, and a smaller, but still big discrepancy was still created

And all of the badges, endless records etc would still be on their profile, proudly saying "ayo there once was this thing you can NEVER archieve again but i did it cause i FOMO'd it"

[twilit pumice]

I think you misinterpreted one aspect. I wouldn't nerf GS endless. Just the total amount of orns so that everybody (new players, too) still has access to orn farming with GS endless but not with "1 HoC to GS for a few days for infinite orn farming and then never again". But I can't imagine that this will be done...

[true bronze]

Tbf, i don't find gsa endless to be too op if you look at the class aspects overall, making hocs be harder to get or unusable to be spammable every day would fix problem of hocing to gs just for orns and going back. The class is slower overall, so getting mats is harder than other classes, which is more important part of als, so it ofc should be able to get lot orns atleast.

[thick wolf]

I know! We understand the same problem. You say nerf something related to it, without punishing anybody, or tying the tap, which is a great solution in my opinion.
It also works good against further stuff of that kind that could escalate extremely quickly

[stiff marsh]

What you are advocating for is really just petty vengeance, not justice. You are painting a picture of players as malicious abusers just to justify punishment according to your judgment. While we have used the language of "abuse", the reality is that this is a balance issue.

Removing orns from people who used non-glitch, non-exploit game mechanics would:

• Affect people who did not really know it was imbalanced
• Make the next imbalance be way more hidden and less likely to be found, as those who took part in it would want to hide to avoid punishment

And to drive the point home, one of the biggest reasons players should never be punished for this is that this problem was known since beta.

[thick wolf]

It was known since beta and we NOW wanna do something?

Yeah no, lets just not. ^^"

You can label me as much as you want, that does not change the facts i and multiple other people in here have understood and presented. Your point of argument seems very out of reach and you stretch my points into disbelief willingly; i don't know what arguing here will do, so i just dont.

[stiff marsh]

I did not label you, I am calling out your stance as petty and vengeful. You would rather leave cancerous gameplay in the game than see players left unpunished...

[thick wolf]

Rather a controlled cancer then one that is untreatable; either remove the unfairness this created with it, or create more gaps over gaps, which i agree even less with.

[stiff marsh]

Removing the unfairness = making anguish have appropriate difficulty instead of just pure strength+profit for gs endless. That's my stance

Creating more gaps = leaving this untouched. That's your preferred stance given that nobody has ever been punished for using game mechanics

[restive turtle]

https://tenor.com/view/jujutsu-kaisen-kaisen-jujutsu-jujutsu-kaisen-jjk-gif-1764710323378111897

u got this rhayvhen

[tidal wyvern]

/s Why did NF actually fix any exploit/unfair stuff which was in game before? Cuz many ppl abuse it and I didn't! They have such headstart! Why didn't leave them? Why any game devs do it ?! Fun killers! We could all be AL1000 with inifnity everything, pffft. /s

[fathom apex]

I think it's already untreatable, you don't want to refund all the orns the players who kept using the "abuse" because that would make OGs and other Players who HoC for it angry. What more could you do if the creator of the game says "It's for fun" about an obvious problem in your stand point. Buffing other classes and making them relevant for Endless is not good, Nerfing a gameplay of GS where he gets carried buy 5 other strong entities is bad too because it's GS's identity. We should blame the system and mechanics for having a loop hole where any player can use.

[restive turtle]

but hey at least we abused it before it got nerfed am i right?

make the rich richer

[tidal wyvern]

This isn't first loop hole. This isn't even last one. There are couple each year. Imo only question is how fast it is stopped. 🤷‍♂️ Anybody advocating for any types of those unbalanced gains is nuts.

[fathom apex]

How could this be a make the rich richer if the creator of the game don't even give half the fck and think to give solutions?

[stiff marsh]

Also, it's a loophole easily accessible to anyone with standard quality event gear. One of the least "rich people" advantages lol. And people who did and did not abuse it are advocating for removing it now, so it's just wrong on all accounts

[fathom apex]

If gold and orn cant buy stuff for mats and only be used for tower upgrades, why are we even concerned by orns and gold being giga farmed? Why does a content being done by a Class that summons strong entities the problem for using it's skills and gear designed for them to do a content? I think the problem is in class scaling design, gear scaling, and skill scaling not the Grand Summoner having the best kit and scaling to tackle Endless Ang 2.0.

Endless should've been kept non Anguish.
Or GSA's Ascended Summons passive should be nerfed? idk

[stiff marsh]

See FAP #4 and 5
#1449963223724855448 message

[fathom apex]

I think the problem here is "Why can't other(my) class do this Anguish Endless but GSA can?" and not "GSA's passive and gamestyle can breeze a Endless Anguish content."

Mind you I have not done any GSA Endless Ang "abuse" and only farmed orn slowly with unfinished RS Endless guide.

If people keep doing it then let them, Odie seems to not care, why should you? If it affects you so much then tell Odie for a change. But if the creator of the game don't give really anything about it then let it be.

[lone flume]

i still don't think orns from endless are problem because they aren't that important currency as you progress what's actually important is materials that you can't buy with orn
there is a reason why odie didn't put anguish malus specifically for summoner and there weren't before ang 2.0 (probably)
talking about exploiting when so limited ppl actually do endless
if this thread want to nerf gs for orn problem then it's a braindead thread seriously

[thick wolf]

standard quality usually dont spawn with anguish level.

[stiff marsh]

I do anguished endless on Heretic, but going higher gets harder. The problem is that for GS it gets easier as they go up in anguish - totally backwards.

The point of this thread is exactly to show Odie the problem and hope he fixes it 👍 we will see what comes of it, if anything. Nerfs are extremely hard to get through

[tidal wyvern]

You can anguish anything? Summon stats doesnt scale with quality? 🤷‍♂️

Also any gear with summon power is enough. You don't need some high-end gear from super raids beside those for buffs, and those you need ang0 common. 🤷‍♂️

So no idea what are you saying ...

[fathom apex]

true

[velvet rock]

The problem is that anguish was designed to make content more challenging. If it is instead making it easier for a certain class, that is fundamentally broken and needs to be fixed

[restive turtle]

buddy you anguished that, that wasn't anguish by default

[twilit pumice]

It is really easy for new T10 players: just quickly farm almost all events, yel is also easy for fresh t10, then farm proofs for Mel20, buy 20x5=100 DWTs, upgrade gear, and voila: you can easily run endless as fresh T10. Shouldn't take more than a couple of days, right?

[fathom apex]

buddy the context of this is from gurnx said. I just replied to rhat to show u can put anguish on any quality

[granite yarrow]

Ah?

[fathom apex]

Just remove the Permanent Buff Fade. Change it to a more dangerous malus like hard to stick statuses or sum

[lone flume]

just increase anguish difficulty in endless that would maybe make endless difficult to gs too

is it not that simple?

[stiff marsh]

The point isn't that it's easy for a fresh t10, but that it's really not that hard in general. No fresh t10 is running endless properly anyway; it always takes a bunch of gear and skills.

Summoner has one of the lowest entry barriers tbh - and melancholy levels just make it easier

[fathom apex]

nope, not that simple. just imagine preventing someone from bleeding who got shot by a shotgun.3 times, while their head is unattached.

[twilit pumice]

This is nonsense. You can easily run endless with Dara w/o event gear. So 2nd best endless class has a very low entrance barrier.

[lone flume]

anguish fixed at 0 in endless would work? it's a easy solution according to me since you can still farm good amount of orns and mats like it used to be.

and i donno if ppl complained about endless before ang 2.0

[lone flume]

bad example XD ( didn't understand anything)

[fathom apex]

Berserk was always up while you have it so nothing to complain. Plus I think Yel gear was not yet available and only have the infamous Fomor gear and Ophion Banner for the buff spread

[lone flume]

so summoner endless became unbalanced just because of better buff spread?

[stiff marsh]

Event gear is just a timegate; other classes actually need high quality gear. Dara endless needs two high quality arisen terrors, very difficult to grind properly; summoner doesn't need quality on any of their gear

[fathom apex]

and zerk being removable, making you go on stun darting and sleep darting while summons do the work. Yel was a bit farmable while wintara was very rare I think

But the mindless stun and sleep darting is an exaggeration, you still have to think better actions and manage provoke to not get targeted.

[lone flume]

so endless fixed at ang 0 should work because according to the information i got from this thread gs gets stronger faster than anguish difficulty

[twilit pumice]

Why difficult? Because quality is "famed"? Just use luck gear. btw: 2x legendary is also fine. Mine were barely ornate when I did my first Dara endless runs, which was more than enough for the F400 reward in full orn.

[lone flume]

i don't think yel changed something game breaking it only made buffing phase easier

[fathom apex]

, it made it more available, wintara is so hard to find due to requirements to appear.

[twilit pumice]

To be honest: before yel in principle the same was possible, but is was so annoying that I never wanted to do it...

[lone flume]

why are we comparing different classes in endless ofc gs is good other class may perform good too so instead of nerfing something making anguished endless more difficult make more sense.

[stiff marsh]

Do you know where to farm Arisen Cthulhu? The actual availability of the monster is very low, you're relegated to occasional monument spawns and chaos scroll world farming.

The key difference is that the quality of terrors for D.ara will directly impact their depth and profitability, so of course you wanna grind the highest possible. Summoner needs no quality.

Btw we are also ignoring quality of the orn farming gear and the legs, which once again summoner gets to ignore

[twilit pumice]

The thing is: if you play real slow, all these discussions don't matter because you don't have mats. If you play more intensive, then you will usually get required Dara gear much faster than the event cycle.

[lone flume]

exactly what i said it just made it easy

[stiff marsh]

Sorry, what do mats have to do with this? The cost of upgrading gear?

[fathom apex]

You said it's not a game changer. It did change, the availability because Yel is easy to farm but Wintara is crazy hard to do because you have to go to a snowing area to farm em.

It's because GS's gameplay focuses on summons doing damage for you, it's even said in the flavor text for the class. It's just that Ascended Summons is your ALs shared to Summons. Other classes dont have a good way to tackle endless Ang because of the designs. Imagine if they just went Damage gear instead of farming gear, then it would create another problem of why GS can use farming gear and go deeper.

[lone flume]

bruh stop comparing summoner with other classes it feels more like you are bitter that D. ara isn't that good in endless

[stiff marsh]

My main class is Heretic... Richard brough d.ara up lol

[lone flume]

oh maybe it's difficult for orna in hoa i easily got windara gear XD

[tidal wyvern]

Well, yea? But I don't want to be that good. I'm fine with as it is. Also running melancholy is impossible, while rising anguish for GS make it easier, not harder (huh?). So not you get further with higher anguish, you make several more orns. Not to mention even in base itteration GS is class that can push endless deepest, with anguish it can go even MORE deeper. It is going backwards. 🙃

[lone flume]

i see tho i hope you understand my point

[fathom apex]

So it's about orns then?

[tidal wyvern]

Also if I should compare gains, in billions per hour in endless, for my AL, rought estimate:
Gilga > Beo > Heretic > RS > Deity > GS
0.3 > 0.5 > 0.9 > 1.1 > 1.5 > 10 (mel20) > 20 (mel40)

That end ...huh?

[lone flume]

bruh I'm not even gonna explain myself you didn't even understand my point also if you see my message about then you should be able to know that i also want gs to feel difficulty

[stiff marsh]

Yeah I don't really care that summoner is better than other classes. The comparisons are useful for showing just how crazy it is though.

Summoner endless is not "tons of effort and gar restrictions", it has effort and some restrictions but it's arguably easier than other classes and gives like 10x or more orns

[tidal wyvern]

Umm, did you read what this thread is about? 😅

[fathom apex]

I just made it clear to understand it more deeper. np

[twilit pumice]

I thought it's obvious: orns w/o mats = no AL. Isn't this thread all about AL? Or what do you use orns for?

[lone flume]

so how gs having more orns easily breaks game? i understand that gs isn't feeling anguished endless difficulty and it should but orns that argument is stupid

[stiff marsh]

See FAP#5...
#1449963223724855448 message

[fathom apex]

What if we made GS have only 3 summons, huh watcha think? reducing summons slots means reduced damage, reduced damage means less deep and more harder, more harder means more weight on skill decision. + remove the "Permanent Buff fade"

[lone flume]

just increasing anguish endless difficulty is a solution now it's difficult for all classes including gs

[twilit pumice]

Interesting! I would say for my AL10 Dara and AL10 GS this was rather around 0.2 and 1.0 (with orn event etc) 😂
Oh, rather 0.3 and 0.7 because my avg. Dara run was like 45 min and GS rather 1.5 hours 🙈

[tidal wyvern]

So how would that increase look like? It would hit all classes too? So GS would still be highest dmg/highest floor? Other classes would die at F100-200 and GS would get to F600-700? 🤔

[lone flume]

it affects survivability too and I'm only concerned about that

[tidal wyvern]

I said comparison to my AL. 🤷‍♂️ Well, we already agree on ang sum power × AL make it more ridiculous and the scaling goes out of roof. (And that deity AL are helpful just a little.)

[fathom apex]

True. but Battalions hmm...

[lone flume]

isn't the point of this thread to make gs feel difficulty of endless and if just gs is nerfed (directly or indirectly) it just makes class worse and pathetic so isn't it better to make endless difficult like it's supposed to be

or

rework gs and gsa so they are like other class in endless and good in other contents

simple

[tidal wyvern]

Proposion to nerf GS was ONLY for endless if you read the thread. They go since begin, through whole thread....

IE: turn of anguish scaling summon stat for endless
IE: turn of anguish for endless completly for everybody, until better solution come
IE: turn of anguish stats multiplication with AL
...

Proposition that should affect GS anywhere else is something even we don't want to. Proposition that would make a "little hit" for GS in endless but also hit others either.

[fathom apex]

Turning off scaling would mean ALs and Ascended Summons is useless. 2 is possible but why not do it now to prevent more orns being farmed. If turning off ALs then whats the purpose of you farming and upgrading your ALs if you can't use it for endgame content.

[lone flume]

so just because few ppl keeps talking about nerfing gs (when it isn't even good like other classes) makes increasing anguish difficulty altogether wrong?

also adjusting gs summon stat scaling is something i agree so it feels difficulty in endless .
gs kit is almost perfect for endless so it's will always be good in endless but adjusting scaling and making anguished endless difficulty is more reasonable because nerfing gs scaling als affects it in dungeon and since it's only decent in endless nerfing it there is just unfair

[tidal wyvern]

@fathom apex
yes, turn of anguish would be currently best thing to do and do it asap

Turning off scaling would mean ALs and Ascended Summons is useless.
it is not like other classes can use much of anguish in endless, gs would still remain best 😅 , but yea, got it

If turning off ALs then whats the purpose of you farming and upgrading your ALs if you can't use it for endgame content.
AL × summ power would normally reamain, only summon power from anguish gear wont be multipled by AL (in endless only) ....if you dont know, other gear stats (so for all other classes) anguish stats are NOT AL multiplcative, they are just added to end of stats

@lone flume

so just because few ppl keeps talking about nerfing gs (when it isn't even good like other classes) makes increasing anguish difficulty altogether wrong?
I still dont know how will you do that? If you increase anguish difficulty, it will increase for all? GS would still remain several times better ...? it wont change nothing?

because nerfing gs scaling als affects it in dungeon and since it's only decent in endless nerfing it there is just unfair
why couldnt be endless standalone from dungeons? it has after all many special rules that doesnt apply anywhere else ...so this can be done only for endless not affecting any other content 🤷‍♂️

[twilit pumice]

• We agree that changing from AL mult to add would be a reasonable fix. However, it still feels more like a workaround - (only) summoner gear working differently depending on the content feels a bit strange.
• The proposed alternative: no anguish for endless, would at least be more consistent.
• Maybe there are other ideas which prevent HoC to summoner just for endless/orns? Because this seems to be the main (only?) issue for me. GS mains that have an easy time to farm orns (but more difficulty in almost every other content) should be fine.

For example: HoC could give all your mats and orns from ALs back, but you lose your Orns from inventory (with a big "Warning!" before HoC). This way, you can't switch to summoner just for orn farming. Maybe there are other (better) ideas about in this direction?

[thick wolf]

Other ways to get orns faster, after something like this exists for multiple months, would be great. Else we just cut off the bottle again.

[lone flume]

1st the target of this thread isn't to close the gap between all classes in endless but to make gs feel difficulty and increasing anguish difficulty does that effectively
as for 2nd point if endless becomes independent then it's actually good.

[twilit pumice]

I know what you mean, but maybe there are still reasonable alternatives to "no change"? I mean if you invest into some GS ALs (instead of HoC), you can still get plenty of orns, but you have to actually invest into the class.
I think neither low AL gains nor general GS (high AL in other than endless) is any problem. Only high AL players HoCing to GS for a few days.

[tight dagger]

At that point now we are assuming people have what? 100 demon tools to get their gear up to ang 20 from 0

That alone is something most don't have access too, only higher AL players would, assuming even at mel 20 most people don't get to as a GS, they use another class then they invest into GS for 1 content and don't touch it again lol

[twilit pumice]

That was also my thought:
#1449963223724855448 message
So I really think that it's neither an early t10 / low AL nor a high AL summoner main problem. Only high AL HoCing to GS.

[true bronze]

Yup yup, that's what i been telling, make hocs harder to use, smth, anything, even smth like month or two block from hoccing again after using hoc.

[bright nimbus]

If summons should suffer the maluses like reduced crit damage, elemental stuff, etc. Then summoners should have access to the benefits of additional crit damage, elemental weakness, etc

I think it a poor ask to shackle summoners down with stuff they're unable to influence otherwise.

[stiff marsh]

How exactly are you trying to shift the "blame" to everyone besides GS 😂 Seriously? The problem is simultaneously not with low AL or high AL? The mental gymnastics are incredible

[twilit pumice]

High AL non-summoners HoC'ing for orns and then HoC'ing back are the problem. Summoner mains underperform in all other content, so I can't see any issue if they are better in endless. Oh man, I already try to write it in an understandable way. Probably I must try harder...

[stiff marsh]

The problem is that we've already talked about this over and over again in this thread. Summoners can be better at endless, nobody cares; and summoners can be buffed in other content, nobody is against that.
#1449963223724855448 message
Using this as an argument is just a logical fallacy or intentional misdirection.

You're asking to change how HoCs work as a whole instead of changing the actual root of the problem - anguished endless for GS is too good starting at AL 0 and is unhealthy for the game

[tight dagger]

I think the faults here are

1. Thinking AL 0 summoners can do anguish endless easy

2. All summons being good for endless ( some take lots of AL/and anguish stats gear to be good, like failed phoniex and gazers, changing how AL effects summon stats on gear kills at least 2 viable summoner endless builds, more so for the untested summons and combos, and killing more builds is something I would like to avoid, that's like killing 2 raid builds for another class cause 1 outlines the rest )

3. Saying getting the event gear isn't hard, most summoners cannot even get through the yel tower for dispurse gear, mind you the hardest titan up to date, and most the dragon encounters kill summoners XD you need to be well prepared before even obtaining all the gear

The main outliner here is the orns income, if that is the main concern at this point, and I'd rather nerf the orns gains then change/ruin many summoner endless builds, as endless is truely one of the contents we can truely enjoy playtesting summons at a lvl we can't get them to go anywhere else in game 👍

[stiff marsh]

I didn't say AL 0 was easy, I said it was too good. Saying "well a fresh t10 can't do it easily!" is irrelevant because literally no fresh t10 can do any kind of endless easily. Endless always takes preparation and effort and specific gear, but gs has it fairly/relatively easy and generates way more profit.

[tight dagger]

I think that's a difference in games on that note, as it's easier to obtain and target farm items on HOA, relatively easier to do endless for some classes then summoner till a certain point

The gateway to summoner endless isn't relatively easy at all, unless we want to call the wyrmhunt mobs a joke and the titan with avidity and 2 of the strongest moves in game ( on that note prismablight )

All you need is common gear and I agree that seems like a easy task but most won't be able to do it compared to farming relatively easier gear to get your hands on for endless, available all year long and not nearly as time gated or challenging to get your hands on

I agree on the generates more profit then the rest when it comes to endless content though 👍 and as suggested I'd rather nerf orns gains in endless then kill endless summoner builds cause 1 is outlining the rest

[stiff marsh]

I think there's lots of potential ways to nerf anguished gsa endless.

I don't like just nerfing endless orns - that nerfs everyone and summoner is still able to go crazy deep due to anguish.

Disabling anguish in endless is an option, but it wouldn't be ideal since it once again affects everyone.

I wouldn't want a summoner nerf that significantly affects performance across all anguish, unless it was accompanied by appropriate buffs in non-endless. I think there is massive room for improvements and reworks here

[tight dagger]

I wouldn't specifically say GSA endless as I'm pretty sure highest endless record on HOA was with the GSH rework XD

Using GSA summons, switching to GSH bloodpact, and basically one shotting any boss ( cause BP being quad scaling and all )

Better yet to just say GS endless then to specify a certain GS line 👍

Nerfing endless orns, makes orns relevant more so, doesn't effect summoner too much as endless would be more so fun of the game ( how endless really should be is for the fun of the challenge not profits imo )

Disabling endless kills all but 3 GS builds, mammoth/AD/bloodpact, then endless is no longer a fun theory build environment but a meta hungry activity

And yeah I mean the next best solution really would be a endless rework, or maluses in endless effect other classes less so, but ideally endless isn't a profit margin but too see how far you can go type of activity

[twilit pumice]

It's kind of funny that you always accuse others (not only me) of logical fallacies, intentional misdirection etc, while you just keep repeating that all arguments that are not in line with your position are not relevant...

When you always ignore all contrary arguments, then I have the strong feeling that you are not in this thread for discussing the specific potential problems and solutions, but just to try to push the sentiment to nerf GS endless in whatever way...

[stiff marsh]

Show me where I've ignored your argument without actually giving a rebuttal 🤷‍♂️ I've laid out my logic every time

[twilit pumice]

Even in your just mentioned thread, you don't even try to say that you think that typically stated points are not a big issue, but that they are not relevant. Even if several other people just don't agree.
Just an example: for me, it was much(!) easier and faster to farm gear for Dara endless, and you continue to say how easy it is to farm gear for GS endless. I did not have to push anguish, buy plenty of DWTs, and so on.
Needing AL? Not relevant.
Nerf mainly hits new players? Not relevant ("as it is the same as refineries", which is just not true as discussed several v times above) 🤷

[stiff marsh]

I've never said "that's irrelevant" without giving arguments as to why it's irrelevant.

• I already mentioned farming gear for GS requires some effort, but it's comparable to other classes at most. Farming demontools is something we've only been doing for like 6 months, so of course you'd find it difficult to justify investing proofs on random summoner gear. Either way I didn't say it was irrelevant
• I said needing ALs is not relevant because you don't really need ALs to abuse it. We have video evidence of this in the first post of this thread, AL 0 summoner can outperform all other classes at higher mel than then.
• How do you reconcile that third point with the second? Is this a high AL problem or a new player problem? What nerf are you talking about exactly, I already mentioned that I'm not in favor of a nerf that hurts GS in other areas unless they also get buffs. I said this is the same as refineries specifically in the context of the "new players need a way to catch up" argument, which I just don't see as outweighing the damage it is currently causing to the game.

[thick wolf]

I was genuenly unsure if it was just me, or if im not properly taking points in. (Usually when i was younger that was the case.)
Thank you for reliefing me of my worry that its all me ^^"

[bold jewel]

I don't actually mind the 10-20b orns cap, cuz orns can only upgrade towers and getting more AL

[tidal wyvern]

I would still HoC to GS even if it was 10b. Doing it for 1h instead 6h for it is ok investment (and that is for DAra, for some other classes it is even much bigger time saver). And ofc when I would be at GS, doing some duo raids for speed in the meantime is also time saver.... 🤷‍♂️

[tidal wyvern]

Tbh, to line with GS endless, every class should get respective buff to their "way of play", so it is HUGELY ahead of others and distinguish from other classes. That way you want o AL everything (or be worse in those fields).

Smth like ......

Gilga should have at least x3 HP (so ward rising accordingly), so he can run super high torment. And just be immortal everywhere.

Beo should get new pet with Towerfall 3, which should be 15 hits, sligthly stronger, non affected by resist/immunes. So he kill those raids in first 5 turns. And of course stasis back to 100%. So that is agony class.

Deity should get staying power to 200% together with all temps in pool, so he can run those dungeons more quickly without buffing etc. at high mel.

RS/Heretic should get crit dmg at least 400%, but non crit dmg would be only 50% dmg. And some other bonuses on top. I guess.

This would be fun.

[fathom apex]

It's all about class design and end-game mechanics.

[lone flume]

roses are red plague like bread,
not I'm sure the discussion here is braindead

(joking)

[bold jewel]

U know what I want, I want a bulk order in guilds shop cuz it's boring to tap everytime for your mats

[restive turtle]

yeah but we have an orn inflation to face, its basically making orns invaluable due to inflation and stock market is crashing down i fear that orns might collapse both aethric and orna's econmy in 6-7 months from now

so we have to nerf gs as fast as possible just sayin

[true bronze]

I say make great orn reset, nerf it then and make ornd usable 🥸

[fathom apex]

https://tenor.com/view/look-at-the-time-nothing-clock-nothing-ever-happens-nothing-ever-happens-clock-well-would-you-look-at-the-time-gif-15455772068412513883

[bold jewel]

If we want it to be fast as possible, they can just put a cap on orns to 10-20b orns?

It's the easiest method I can think of? Or we going with the AL addictive for summons?

[tight dagger]

My main concern for that method is it turns possibly 6-8 viable summon endless builds

Into maybe 1-3, you'd kill multiple builds in doing so, on that note If it's applied to all content summoner might as well not do any anguish content XD

[bold jewel]

Those aren't my solutions, it's the solutions I see on this thread that some people kinda agree with

But I still agree with the 10b-20b orns cap, the peoples main concern about this thread is orns being invaluable or something like that, so the cap ain't that bad

[next cipher]

Oh this thread still exists

[shadow salmon]

Isn't endless now the same as endless before for summoners? All it took before was either summons not killing the mob (deeper zerks or 2nd chance misses) or dungeon time expiring. If anything, the deeper you go as summoner in endless, the riskier it gets to pump all 5 summons out before RNG decides to one tap you during the buff phase, after that it's the same old boring stun dart/tbuffs cycle regardless

Also, the way anguish makes content more challenging is less of the enemy stat increase than it is the maluses right? So it's moreso that summoners basically ignoring anguish maluses that make anguish endless for them a breeze.

Find a way to make anguish maluses relevant to summoners and boom mission accomplished

[velvet rock]

Not quite sure what all that has to do with what I said, and I don't know if I can state it any more simply than I already have but I'll try.

The intent of anguish is to make content more difficult in exchange for more rewards. More anguish = more difficulty and more rewards.

The other part of anguish is anguished gear, which lets you offset the difficulty increase and go deeper into anguished content than you would normally be able to. This doesn't mean anguish gear will let you scale infinitely. You will still hit a wall where the only way to progress is more ascension levels.

The issue with summoner endless is that anguished gear negates the difficulty increase entirely and actually makes it easier while at the same time giving increased rewards. That doesn't change how gs does endless, or the fact that endless monsters eventually out scale you, but it does go against the "more difficulty for more rewards" design of anguish and changes it to "less difficulty for more rewards" which is a balance issue that goes against the original intent of anguished content

Yes you could solve that with maluses, but it would be much much easier to just make it so anguish bonuses don't cause summons to out scale anguish difficulty increase

[stiff marsh]

Yeah regardless of anything else, higher anguish just should never equal easier content for any class

[fathom apex]

https://tenor.com/view/look-at-the-time-nothing-clock-nothing-ever-happens-nothing-ever-happens-clock-well-would-you-look-at-the-time-gif-15455772068412513883

[restive turtle]

right but beoA with stasis is busted at high ang still and you get more proofs too. In endless it's only orns so which one is more busted? U get orns but for what? to ascend like 5x per month and never used it again?
We say that endless is busted because summoner ahh ohh scary. But if don't turn a a blind there's content out there that is actually busted and that gives more value comapred to orns.

Idk how casual are u guys but

proofs, shards, and any other currency is better than orns.

Now you tell if endless is really a lot busted than any other content. Cus as far as i know if this gets converted to mats that means faster ascension.

just look at it like this, u can have orns but you can't use em if u don't have proofs, shards or enough mats for ascension so what good will that do. But if u got tons of mats like converting your proofs, shards and other currencies then It is more busted cus you're getting more value from there and from orns? not so much.

I can farm 100b orns right now but would that give me +100 al in just 2 months? no right, but if i converted my proofs into mats then it's easily achievable. Orns blocks are easier to deal with than may blocks real talk.

🫳🫴🫳🫴

anyways orn inflation is so real and broken omg, like gah lee It takes like 500m orns now to pay anything. Average cost of homes have skyrocketed, we can't buy no food no water. Orn inflation is bad that we can't actually sustain a living in game.

Please nerf endless itself

[lone flume]

75% ppl here just want gs nerf nothing else
it's the only solution according to them it hurt them so much that meta class aren't as good as gs in endless

[tidal wyvern]

You said smth everyone know. I agree with you. On the BeoA vs raids situation. Make a thread about it. But that's not the subject of this thread. The only thing it is is an attempt to divert attention. Ok? Discussion here is endless problem. Why are someone still pointing to something else?
🫳🫴🫳🫴

Why you don't spam this in "Kingdom orns" thread? Or "Reworking Conq guild". Your post belong there same as here. 🤷‍♂️

[quick gyro]

The gaslighting in this thread is insane. Everyone at high AL has spent countless hours farming endless, and suddenly we’re pretending orns don’t matter or take time to accrue just because people don’t want anguish endless nerfed.

[lone flume]

he mentioned beoA once if i remember right

[restive turtle]

just cause the thread is about endless doesn't mean my comment is irrelevant. You guys say this is broken and when there's actually content outside of this that is actually broken and busted.

[tidal wyvern]

And yet again, should I copy what I just wrote or you didn't read it?

[lone flume]

maybe you should reread because considering your messages it doesn't seems like you do

[restive turtle]

idk man endless kinda busted to me ✋ 😐 🤚

orn block us much easier than a mat block

[quick gyro]

No one will argue that BeoA stasis cheesing high agony isn’t broken. That’s not the point here. Two things can be broken at the same time.

Regardless, if you buy a ton of mats via BeoA agony, you still won’t be able to get a ton of AL. You know what you’ll be missing? Orns

[tidal wyvern]

Imo powercreep of many classes and some builds is insane. Be it BeoA or GS endless. Or Deity/Beo overall performance. Funnily enough I'm not advocating for keeping any of those and I'm all in for some kind of nerf. But usually threads are full of defenders of those playstyles, cuz ppl who would like to keep their sanity doesn't involve.

[lone flume]

but mats are more difficult to farm and you can get orns easily without endless comparatively

[quick gyro]

Mats are more easy to farm exactly because orns have been trivialized by anguish endless. I’m AL177 and I assure you I’ve been orn locked a lot of times and spent hundreds of hours in endless dungeons

[tidal wyvern]

Can sign this.

Again, in 6 hours GS endless I farmed more orns than I farmed through my almost 6y of gameplay. 🫡

[lone flume]

The only thing i can agree with here is that ppl who want to preserve sanity don't involve

[lone flume]

I'm not very high al nor got past 500 floor on endless so i can't say much here

[tidal wyvern]

Well, then the proposed nerfs would probably barely touch you, if even ...and again. They are all for endless only, not affecting GS play anywhere else. And even with those nerfs, GS would still be best in endless. So what is your cause actually?

[lone flume]

just because it doesn't affect me now doesn't mean it wouldn't affect me later but putting that aside i like gs class and it getting nerf indirectly is still nerf and gs isn't a class like beo or deity that can good even after few nerfs

[tidal wyvern]

Endless nerfs. Only.
Won't affect you in other aspect of game.
GS would still be best class in endless.
Highest income.
Deepest floors.

You just won't be able to get 10-20x then class behind you, which is nonsense. Even BeoA doesn't kill raids 10x fastere than classes behind.

[lone flume]

i don't understand why gs needs nerf. if it's
1- get too much orns then just put a high cap on orns so low al ang players still earn like usual and high anguish /al get little limited.

2- If gs is too good in endless then there shouldn't be problem since other class have a content where they perform good too.

Instead of talking about nerfs first answer me how they affects because even if you have 100 billions of orns they are still useless because of mats requirement (that obviously becomes too expensive).

[tidal wyvern]

First that answer. They are not useless. As I already mentioned. As bordoas mentioned. I already spend 30 bil orns in my ALs. Plus some bilions elsewhere. My orn income grow as time goes, and as games became easier tbh. Yet, that 30+ bil is income I gathered over 6y of gameplay. Over dozens of endless I run in full orn equip. Over thousand of hard dungeons I ran in full orn (that was the way before how to make orns). And probably more and more content. Oh, one things to add - when I ran endless orns I used to buy shrine for it. There wasn't any guilds to buy them easily. I actually spend over 100 dollars to buy shrines for my endless (when there weren't any around - and they used to spawn way more) over the years.

And now, I ran 6 hours of endless as GS and I made more than I made in all of this ^.

I am really not fan of orns being easier and easier loosing their weight. But this last overstep just made it ridiculous.

__
So, if GS si too good in endless.

Ok, in perspective. If I do dungeon in 2 minutes, is there any class that can do it in 12 sec?

If I do tower in 10-20 minutes, is there any class that can do it in 1-2 minute?

If I do raids in 1-2 minute, is there any class that can do it in 6-12 sec?

I'm really curious. I just simply put "10x better" for all those content. It is how currently GS (and it is 10-20x) stands against 2nd class behind it in endless. Let not even talk about the last in the end, it is beyond nonsence. So?

[lone flume]

and how so much orns and als is something problematic and orns already lost their value their only use after buying all classes is als and there shouldn't be any nerfs just because Class is good in any single content and decent or miserable in others also things i wrote in last weren't nonsense i was just telling that mats are more valuable than orns.

[quick gyro]

If you all think orns have lost their value, then there’s no point in letting GS easily farm billions anyway, so the nerfs shouldn’t matter.

[lone flume]

if nerf is on endless like having cap i don't mind it

[tidal wyvern]

I tried this already. It didn't work. They come up with smth else ... 🤣

[lone flume]

as i said most ppl here are looking for summoner nerf rather than fixing problem

[tidal wyvern]

So what is the fixing problem solution?

Orn cap? I would still swap to GS whenever I would run out of orns.

Making endless harder - somehow? It would be for all, so GS would still be 10x better.

Add summoner specific maluses? It would affect GS everywhere.

What was next "fix problem" solution?

[lone flume]

1st so what's the problem here
2nd so what's the problem here
3rd most stupid thing

[tidal wyvern]

We should make raids and towers harder. So GS actually don't stance a chance there. 🫡 Also make a cap of 2 minutes per raid, then his HP replenish and you have to start over.

you basically just said you really don't care if any class is stronger in smth or not

[lone flume]

i don't understand if you are trying to ragebait me (isn't working) or you are clearly stupid since you just can't understand what i write

[spiral tartan]

Try to keep the insults out of discussions just because someone disagrees with you

[tidal wyvern]

so if you actually don't care about any optimization, you don't care about how OP any class is, it is really pointless discussion ...that's basically way to powercreep hell

and I didn't say single insult there (if he did, i didnt even notice that 😅 )

[lone flume]

sorry for that it's just nvm

[spiral tartan]

Was talking about this

[lone flume]

you mean gs is op? and orn cap solve the orn problem so where did your 'make tower harder and raid replenish hp etc' came from

also sorry for that insult it just felt stupid

[tidal wyvern]

So, if GS si too good in endless.

Ok, in perspective. If I do dungeon in 2 minutes, is there any class that can do it in 12 sec?

If I do tower in 10-20 minutes, is there any class that can do it in 1-2 minute?

If I do raids in 1-2 minute, is there any class that can do it in 6-12 sec?

I'm really curious. I just simply put "10x better" for all those content. It is how currently GS (and it is 10-20x) stands against 2nd class behind it in endless. Let not even talk about the last in the end, it is beyond nonsence. So?

It is basically this. Why not make some classes way superior above others in this way? Should we do it? Apperently in your eyes, it is fine.

[untold urchin]

I envy your patience man 💀

[twilit pumice]

I absolutely agree that GS is much more efficient in endless. I just don't like if conclusions are drawn based on the wrong assumptions.
@tidal wyvern has already stated that he earned around 700 million orns per hour. I think this was even w/o ang1 passive bonus. For AL177 you needed 39B, right? After "hundreds of hours" - say 300? - you could have gained 210B...

[lone flume]

gs doesn't do well in all content listed so i don't see a problem if it's good in 1

[tidal wyvern]

Thats the things, it doesn't solve the problem. It will cut it just into smaller pieces. I will still once a year HOC to GS and farm my 10 bil orns in 1 hour top instead of doing it 10 hour for my main class. Or if we take Gilga for instance ...30 hours of orn farming? 🙃

[quick gyro]

Gurnnink did it on DAra, which in itself was already the top class for endless when it released (and was, deservedly, nerfed in part for it). Even then, DAra never even came close to what GS can achieve now

[lone flume]

and class being good in 1 content and Okay in other is fine what's wrong with that

[tidal wyvern]

I'm comparing "best" times (although I didnt list the best) to 2nd best. That's why I listed those times. And how it should look like ...if ...

Same as I'm comparing GS endless to 2nd best endless.

The gap between them is enormous.

[twilit pumice]

Now we are comparing GS not to second best anymore? 🙈 How about we nerf deity in pvp in way that in defense they are comparable to GS? 😂

[lone flume]

so gs should be good in other content too unless you have good al gs feels miserable yeah it's save but the damage output never match other class in same level according to you

[tidal wyvern]

First that answer. They are not useless. As I already mentioned. As bordoas mentioned. I already spend 30 bil orns in my ALs. Plus some bilions elsewhere. My orn income grow as time goes, and as games became easier tbh. Yet, that 30+ bil is income I gathered over 6y of gameplay. Over dozens of endless I run in full orn equip. Over thousand of hard dungeons I ran in full orn (that was the way before how to make orns). And probably more and more content. Oh, one things to add - when I ran endless orns I used to buy shrine for it. There wasn't any guilds to buy them easily. I actually spend over 100 dollars to buy shrines for my endless (when there weren't any around - and they used to spawn way more) over the years.

And now, I ran 6 hours of endless as GS and I made more than I made in all of this ^.

I am really not fan of orns being easier and easier loosing their weight. But this last overstep just made it ridiculous.

This is pretty much answer to the one @quick gyro said.

(also I'm earing 1-1.5 bil/hour on my current AL)
(or 10-20 bil/hour on my current AL as GS, depending on mel)

[lone flume]

why gap needs to be small even little bit just switch what's the problem with that at the level you need to farm orns and have decent gear you should have all classes and according to ppl here gs takes less 'gear investment'

[twilit pumice]

I know that content was more difficult in earlier days. I reached t10 and end of tutorial after 1 month, which would not have been possible earlier. Still, i think it is not helpful to argue with time invested years before major changes.

[tidal wyvern]

So yea. You are fine with powercreeping. Classes out of limits. Etc. It is fine, no problem. I don't think it is healthy for game. Any game. But that is your view I guess. Then you are not in for any kind of nerfs. Got it and I really have not much else to add to you. 🫡

[lone flume]

so class being good in one content and being decent or meh in other is powercreeping (I'm not familiar with this term so seriously is it?)

[tidal wyvern]

That's why the last sentence. Orns were slowly moving forwards and being faster and faster over the years. The steps were slow. Okay, didn't like it, but it was what it was. This last GS step just broke any barrier that existed before. And as stated in start of this thread, it rendered orns completely useless. It is kinda final step for orns to fall into abyss.

[twilit pumice]

Abyss is getting all the orns? Nerf! Now! 😂

[lone flume]

can please tell me?

[tidal wyvern]

The question is "how much better".

That's why I posted that time vs content.

Is some class that much better than other for you ok?

[lone flume]

so is a class being miserable also i joke if gs were to be good as other classes in other content then this nerf should make sense but guess what it's miserable

[twilit pumice]

I think nobody would care about GS endless if HoC would be no option.
Most people know that summoners are much worse in every other content. Which is just part of GS mechanic. Summoning and buffing cost plenty of turns, so they will always be better in endless even if they are worse in all other content.

[lone flume]

being worse is just part of mechanic 😔
honestly depressing

[quick gyro]

Again, the issue isn’t GS being better at endless. It’s summons actually getting stronger the higher your anguish level, which is completely contrary to the whole idea behind anguish. Just disable anguish endless or cap it at anguish level 1 and the issue is solved. No nerfs for GS, they’d still be the best endless class by far. They’d just no longer get enough orns to last them a lifetime in a literal day

[lone flume]

yeah if anguished endless isn't possible it's good too
ang 1 is good too

[potent narwhal]

So after 2.5k messages we came back to the same conclusion

[tidal wyvern]

It is more that every day someone new join being over the place "dont nerfe gs, gs too weak, stop hurting gs, every class is better" 🙃

[twilit pumice]

That would be fine for me, and have also stated that before. I also find it more consistent compared to changing anguish passive (AL additive in endless vs multiplicative everywhere else) depending on the content.

I would even say: no anguished endless at all. Increasing difficulty is already part of endless. Anguish 1 would just be used to make content easier (Ang passives). Which is the very same argument why deleting higher anguish in the first place.

[lone flume]

i always liked this suggestion

[tidal wyvern]

Did someone put this problem infornt of Odie and that simplest and fastest solution would be just turn ang off for the endless? For indefinetly or till some "better version" of endless will be introduced?

Since you are ORN ..... ?

[fathom apex]

https://tenor.com/view/look-at-the-time-nothing-clock-nothing-ever-happens-nothing-ever-happens-clock-well-would-you-look-at-the-time-gif-15455772068412513883

[potent narwhal]

We discussed it in the orn chat. The issue is known but I don't think we got any promises about how and when it will be tweaked

[tight dagger]

Problem with doing so is you also kill diversity of endless builds alongside that as well 🥴 you turn what can be 6-8 endless builds

Into 1-3, if a class overperforms with 1 build in raids, does that give reason to possibly kill 4 other builds alongside it? ( you also kill many other untapped builds as well or silly ideas some summoners would like to be able to endless with )

If endless is a profit margin, remove the profit, there's other ways to make orns outside of endless

[tidal wyvern]

Problem with doing so is you also kill diversity of endless builds alongside that as well 🥴 you turn what can be 6-8 endless builds
So the anguish summoner stats, which everybody agree make each increased melancholy more easier rather than harder, opens also new possibility for endless? Who would guess that.

if a class overperforms with 1 build in raids, does that give reason to possibly kill 4 other builds alongside it?
To actually make that same principle, anguish should open more possibilities for raids for other classes. It doesn't, riht? It actually kill most of them cuz of maluses AND higher enemy stats, so those builds damage goes to zero. 🤔

[tight dagger]

1. You'd have to use different builds to understand how some summons work, such as gazers and failed phoniex's, and why'd you'd need extra summon stats to make them work, there's no other way to customize summons or increase their potential other then just raw stat increase, and a solid strategy

2. Not what I said lol, let's put into perspective, I kill towerfall, that's kills 8 builds because 1 was outperforming then the rest doesn't it? And leaves you to maybe 1-3 left as a BeoA, killing more build diversity then necessary imo

Rather then just simply removing the profit margin that is in endless and reducing it to less orn income then other sources that exist currently if orns being relevant is the main point

[lone flume]

wasn't anguish less endless good solution?

[true bronze]

I think that's what most ppl here want alr.

[tidal wyvern]

So, if GS si too good in endless.

Ok, in perspective. If I do dungeon in 2 minutes, is there any class that can do it in 12 sec?

If I do tower in 10-20 minutes, is there any class that can do it in 1-2 minute?

If I do raids in 1-2 minute, is there any class that can do it in 6-12 sec?

I'm really curious. I just simply put "10x better" for all those content. It is how currently GS (and it is 10-20x) stands against 2nd class behind it in endless. Let not even talk about the last in the end, it is beyond nonsence. So?

So can we implement this? To make diversity even more shouting out loud.

[lone flume]

also i just want to know why are ppl acting like orns are very precious after exploiting endless for orns? most ppl who get orns from endless are happy so what is the problem? it's not like you get orn without doing anything?

[tidal wyvern]

Well, as you can see people even have problems with cutting out ang completely and for everybody. 🤷‍♂️

[tight dagger]

GS gets further in floors

But take your orn gear off and actually try to go deep in endless, my solution is to make endless not a profit margin but a challenge to see how far you can go instead, summoners would still have their summons and build diversity, and endless orns gains could be dead for all I care

Summoner would be able to enjoy endless still rather then just limiting them to 1 event summon, and AD lol

Or bloodpact all the way up ( which is equally boring )

Take away orns from endless, I'd live with that, rather then killing all motivation to actually have fun in the 1 content you can push summons in and actually do something with them, I would say every other content RELYING on summons is at least a X2-X4 slower process then any other class in game

[tidal wyvern]

But take your orn gear off and actually try to go deep in endless

I did and not just one time. Most of builds I can push don't get me as far as summoner can go in full orn just watching summons and do nothing else. Then there is pretty much single which can almost get me to same ...with enormous switching and work. Eh.

Well, endless is for many income. Both in exp and orns. Why one broken class (do you even agree that AL × summ stats making each maloncholy level EASIER is a thing?) should kill it for the rest of normally working classes?

And also, duh, why I'm even trying to compare it. That wouldn't even kill GS. You would have to try more. If they will have to do something with "broken", it would affect you in some kind of way anyway.

[restive turtle]

dam

[lone flume]

what happened!?
why he got removed?
i see so that's why

[true bronze]

???

[fading otter]

if you've got nothing to add to the thread and post the same gif thrice you might awell stay out

[tight dagger]

1.Do you believe every summon can do endless? Do you truely think every summon out stats enemies in melancholy?

Yes I know summon stats on paper is outscaling enemies

But not every summon is regardless of that fact^ otherwise I'd be able to make ANY summon work in endless just fine by that logic, there's outliner summons whether we want to agree or not on it, being only 2 summons ( don't get me started on how broken dark riftus still is XD )

And yes removing orn income from endless as a whole solves orn inflation ever so little If that was a main point, rather then removing what makes a class mechanic stronger in it's main content it excels at ( GSA endless ), other classes can actually do endless and theory build on how to get further as well without that constant worry of doing so in weaker builds for profit 😁

[lone flume]

don't remind me of darkrift council they renew my hate for deity

[tight dagger]

( if high ang you can still use them and they are still stronger then every summon in our arsenal in terms of endless )

[tidal wyvern]

No, I don't.

Same logic - do you believe that whatever skill (and there is more skills than summons) or build I take (or any other class take). Any skill, can outdamage endless/raid/[put anything] and be worth using? Or are we crippled with like 5 skills used over and over again in non anguish and that amount being even more reduced when we actually use some anguish?

It just supports theory that anguish - which should make game harder - make endless for GS easier. It works the opposite way.

So you still didn't answer to this:

do you even agree that AL × summ stats making each maloncholy level EASIER is a thing?

[tight dagger]

I do believe if built properly any skill can be used in raids and viably so If you buff right, worth using? That's up to you, as a summoner who settles for 50-100k dps, that's viable for any raid for me personally, will it take a while? Sure, but I can kill it eventually XD

I did answer though, "yes, I know summon stats on paper is outscaling enemies"

But most summons in our arsenal are not

You're pointing out maybe 2 summons that are doing so, we have nearly more then 10, T10 summons that simply don't

Stats on summons work very differently then players

[fossil galleon]

Wouldn't a good temporary bandaid be not allowing mammoth and AD in endless as those are really the only two that allow you to push as far as you can with gs

[tight dagger]

I have 100AL mel 25 summon stats optimal gear

I can get to floor 1600 with failed phoniex/anubis combo

I can get to floor 2600 with 4 immunity gazers/BP

I can get to floor 2300 with mammoths

I can get to floor 1800 with AD

I can get to floor 800 with A.bloodwargs/anubis

Different strategies and set ups for each one, no anguish stats involve or multiplicative Al's, I would cut those numbers to less then half ( some 1/8th because of stats loss )

[fossil galleon]

Ah fair enough, I've only ever seen those two get used so I didnt think the rest of the summon options could scale as well

[tight dagger]

Other strategies rely on much longer set up, it takes me nearly an hour to set up gazers

[tight dagger]

Taking them out would significantly make GS worse at endless XD

Granted it would be an option, kills the meta builds, but then you're forcing every summoner to nearly hour set ups XD

( and early endless summoner builds would be nearly non existent )

[tidal wyvern]

I have no answer.

Mel = make endless easier for GS. Not harder. You just indirectly said it in several last posts without actually saying it. 🤷‍♂️

Literally only anguish content for only class that gets easier as angusih rise up.

Nope, nothing.

[true bronze]

It could be hard to make, but how about spliting endless. 1st being locked at mel 1 for everyone to grind orns, with 2nd being sandbox type, with no limits and 100x lower orns etc, so summoners can still see and have fun in endless.

[lone flume]

just let endless stay as it is in hoa

[tidal wyvern]

It is ok for me.

So lets make it easy.

Ang0 endless = normal profit.

Once you turn on anguish = profit zero.

[tight dagger]

I did say it, you didn't read it

"Yes summon stats scale higher then enemies stats on paper"

AD and mammoth scale higher and better the more anguish you go up then enemies

The rest don't do so nearly as much, the class itself doesn't get stronger per ang lvl, unless you want to say maluses don't effect GSH as well 🤭 or base GS builds

Only 2 summons get stronger per ang lvl, the rest stay on par with enemy stats maybe less here and there but due to their mechanics as summons whether it's having 4 immunities or a temu execution, they can somewhat keep up only due to the anguish stat increase

[true bronze]

Would't ang 1 support most classes? Increase in mobs stats would be worth for ang bonuses like accuracy, crit dmg etc.? Not sure how endless works for other classes

[tidal wyvern]

The rest don't do so nearly as much, the class itself doesn't get stronger per ang lvl, unless you want to say maluses don't effect GSH as well 🤭 or base GS builds

"Nearly as much"? You just said that if it wasn't for mel25 (which should make game 500% harder), you would cut the floor to "less than half or even to 1/8". It is not "nearly as much", but it is WAY MORE then anybody else. Actually it is infinitely more. Cuz everybody else in anguish gets WEAKER and the content HARDER. You just said no anguish would cut every of those summons buidls down.

[tight dagger]

I would be okay with that personally

[fossil galleon]

I think that seems to be the route most people on this thread are ok with

[tidal wyvern]

It would, but why complicate it? Just easily make it to ang/no-ang. Ang1 is no big breakpoint. If you want to run it with those bonuses, settle for no income, but only depth builds.

[lost lance]

Just make it so that the exp, gold and orn bonuses from anguish don't work in endless. I doubt that it would still be too much of a problem if the ang 0 orn rate is being applied at say ang 25?

[tidal wyvern]

Tbh it actually settle even me. As I was at first sceptic about the no anguish for endless will kill for fun or attempts for builds. But took it as easiest and most common ground ...but ang/no-ang is so far best shot.

Just make it so that the exp, gold and orn bonuses from anguish don't work in endless. I doubt that it would still be too much of a problem if the ang 0 orn rate is being applied at say ang 25?
Anguish actually let you push to higher floors than without anguish. Not to mention summoner can abuse status fade. And higher floors is just bigger income.

[tight dagger]

Scaling is different between our games so I wouldn't be sure to say it's "500%" stronger on our end personally

Also you skipped the part where I also said no multiplicative AL XD, If I tried every single build at 0 AL on that mel, I wouldn't even make it to floor 600 on most of them, I have 100AL on my person, base 0AL just anguish stats many of those builds wouldn't function at all

But I digress, yes summons get stronger per ang lvl only being mammoth and AD for the most part, the rest barely tread that thin line of just enough to do dmg still XD

But I agree on the no anguish endless being for profit

Anguish endless no gains or profit

[velvet rock]

Holy goalpost moving. This is a thread about gs endless not stasis. Stasis has been talked about exhaustively and a nerf is in the works. As I've stated multiple times already it's not about the orns, it's about gs using anguish to make endless easier, the opposite of its intended design

[restive turtle]

holy cope maxing

bro you guys talk about "busted" stuff and then when i actually bring up what's actually busted and abusable everyone turns a blind eye and would give me the classic "but errm this is a gs endless thread" like golly Even if u farm 10b orns it means nothing if u can't use it, as ive said orn block is easier than a mat block

🫳 🫴 🫳 🫴

[tight dagger]

I'd also like to suggest maybe this change be only orna as well, quite a bit of the HOA community would quite mind such a change as we do have better orn incomes/more accessible orn incomes and a lot of people on our side already hate endless as a profit margin and would rather memory hunt anyway ( which is a better profit long term scaling wise )

You'd probably have much less resistance to the change itself if this specified "only for orna" and proposed a change that suits orna most and didn't effect HOA

[restive turtle]

anyways, hoping that whatever changes u guys want would only get pushed through orna. Im only going this far and hard cus i know we're bound to have the same update or changes u guys want when the community in aethric is pretty chill and cool about it.

anyways that's all mwa no hard feelings pookie bears nomnom

[velvet rock]

Yes that's how topics work, you stick to the topic the thread is about.

Guess I'll keep repeating myself since you're still not getting it: it's not about the orns, it's about gs abusing anguish to make endless easier.

[tight dagger]

If this effects both games then this would be the best option

[fossil galleon]

If no one likes and uses endless in HoA then a nerf there doesn't matter as the same logic we've used before yes?

[tight dagger]

It matters to summoners, and me myself as a endless enjoyer

We can't worldfarm in the new ang 2.0 like most can

We are inefficient at any other orn methods BUT memory hunting which anyone can do if you have the gear and amity ( still better on beo then the rest iirc )

You're killing the 1 enjoyable content for summoners all around cause that's the only content we can actually min max summons in, the rest of the game is too short designed for us to achieve such heights in with summons our main mechanic 😁

[lone flume]

not no one

[restive turtle]

almost everyone in hoa does endless, there's only a few people who doesnt and there's still players who are still in ang 1 doing world farming so

[fossil galleon]

Lol a lot more HoA players here than expected huh, I suppose if thats the main community thats pushing against endless changes than soft launching a change on just orna is probably not a half bad idea

[lost lance]

Stasis has been talked about exhaustively and a nerf is in the works.
Why did you actively ignore the part where he said that the busted stuff is going to get nerfed and say that everyone is turning a blind eye to the actually busted stuff.
People are just tired of having to repeat the same point that just because one thing is broken it doesn't give justification for another thing to be broken as well.
To reiterate, everyone agrees that stasis is broken and should be nerfed, a stasis nerf is on the way and that gs endless having scaling greater than the difficulty of melancholy is also a problem.

[velvet rock]

Cuz he doesn't use his brain when he types. Pure reaction and emotion, zero thought

[tight dagger]

Let's avoid personal jabs 😅

[restive turtle]

pretty much if thats what u wanna hear 🫣

maybe im wrong yk, maybe the reason why gs is so busted in endless is that every time i earn 20b orns i can do 20 ascencions per month. Maybe agony farming isnt relevant to the matter, cus what u guys are saying "busted" isnt probably busted at all if u look at the game holistically.

idk man just sayin maybe when the currency can be actually converted to mats is what make this game much easier to achieve als.

mats > orns

[restive turtle]

anw bye pookies, as ive said earlier

[fathom apex]

is the 20 ascensions per month consistent or has been declining and turned into 20 ascensions per 3-4 months?

[tight dagger]

( there was sarcasm in that statement XD, as in 20 billion orns can give us enough mats for 20AL's per month, it doesn't, though if you truely grinded giants and titans event you could probably pop out nearly 30AL's worth of mats for low effort compared to other methods )

[fathom apex]

still wouldn't the reset and increase of mats after a +1 upgrade still make it exponentially hard to get the next +1 or the next +1 when the mats appear?. if you get 10K Pure Draconite on you mats and need 3K more, after you have farmed it, the next mats or the next one after that still needs you to farm 10K Pure Draconite + the increase, wouldn't that still need you to expend more resources like Kingdom Orns for Dracon, Time for Dungeon T8 Dungeons (less floors), and wait for the next Wyrmhunt event? unless you pay proofs for it or wait for resets in tower mats that cost tower shards. unless you no life the game, then it's a win-win for you and the game, you get your reward for no lifing it and on the other hand, your life has been wasted. Even at the sarcasm point, that 20 ALs per month would actually be 20 per 3-4 months, and then will proceed to a more decline.

[restive turtle]

20als for 3-4 months is diabolical

im just chilling at the game rn and would still get 10als per month

[tight dagger]

That's what makes mats so much more of a currency then orns

You can take time to farm orns much more then you can a lot of mats, and most methods of getting mats, you'll likely get your orns in too

Now ofc memory hunting can supply you with more mats then you can dream of ( I've seen some people go up 30 AL with just memory hunts, in a week )

Mats are used to constantly scale your equipment up to your ang lvl, upgrade equipment in general, ect, it's a constant currency that actively gets used unlike orns, gold is used more then orns XD

Orns is more for 1 time unlocks, while gold and mats are used for almost everything and more actively as both those currencies aren't locked to 1 time unlocks as much, eventually orns is just AL currency when you hit a certain point in the game 👍

[twilit pumice]

Let's try to be realistic here: orn farming with endless probably required around 1% of playtime before GS stepped in. Considering gurnninks high AL experience, now orn farming might be more efficient by factor 3 (low AL) to 10 (high AL), so around 0.1-0.3% playtime.

Obviously, this doesn't change anything about how fast you can ascend. I guess it is rather that most people don't really like endless, so it is not a "fun" content. And because of that, even 1% playtime felt like an investment (otherwise we wouldn't talk about it because nobody would ever be orn locked), whereas mats farming is rather just playing the game in the way you enjoy.

So yes, GS endless is much more efficient for well equipped players. And no, objectively it doesn't change anything for progression. But still, for some people it feels different. And I guess this counts, too? Even if it rather means to insist on "blood, sweat, and tears" instead of having fun with the game.

[fathom apex]

nothing is happening, while "abusers" gain more and more orns

[fading otter]

please review the discussion thread rules on constructive feedback and server rules for trolling/spam

[restive turtle]

surely orn farming isn't that game breaking

it's not like kliktu or halloogood earning 30b in 4 endless runs would break the entire server's economy, or any player for that matter.

not gonna explain why cus two players already explained it above

[stiff marsh]

Y'all are talking about mats being more valuable than orns as if nobody else knows this...

I've stated a bunch of times that amassing orns is a problem for game health in general because orns become worthless and won't be able to be used for anything new. People seem to ignore this and still just say "well orns are only used for ALs and mats are more important there"

[lone flume]

maybe being some super expensive(orns) and very important things for t11/high ang/high al
it's a random idea may or may not be good but could bring positive results if we put efforts maybe

[restive turtle]

orn economy would go bad if we can buy items from other players using orns. We could simply up the prices of the items like say 50b orns for an ornate item of this. But the game is not built like that right? regardless of how much orns you have its not gonna affect the game. The orns that you'll ever amass would solely affect you and no one else. If you can buy items using orns from another player by trading yeah sure endless needs a change since it's the sole reason why prices are going up. So its not like the game's economy would go bad whatsoever. I mean we can say the same for gold, we are overflowing with gold yet the game is not in a bad shape. Considering you can do a lot with it unlike with orns its just ascending and swapping out classes. So even if u were able to farm 50b orns, then so what? would u even be able to use all of it? its not like you need to run endless 24/7.

even if i farm 1t orns its not gonna affect everyone else, i can't donate it, i can't do anything with it except use it for swapping out classes, ascend thats it. It's not like we regulate orns here in this game by trading with real players anyways so how is it gonna make the game in a bad health?

[stiff marsh]

Did you even read what I said

[restive turtle]

I did

[stiff marsh]

You seem to have ignored the part where I said "won't be able to be used for anything new", and then you said "orns are only used for ALs" like I said people have been doing

[restive turtle]

whats the most expensive thing you can buy in the game? except for ascending?

and towers

[stiff marsh]

🤦‍♂️

[fossil galleon]

My brother in mammon he means that we can't get new things to spend orns on because theres no way to properly price something when some players can get billions of orns for very little investment, its not just that they aren't as important now its that we can't ever use them for other things because the "orn economy" is getting destroyed

[tight dagger]

The orn economy has been destroyed since ang 1.0 lol

As soon as millions of orns could be acquired by 1 boss it was over for orn economy, pricing things with orns would have to be in the billions at this point, and at that point it's just gold 2.0 slightly harder to get then gold 🤣💀

Unless there was announced plans for orns to be used as an active currency or future things other then one time pet unlocks/Al's, it's not a currency that matters for the long term of the game

( assuming we aren't getting a T11 class branch, and more in depth endgame mechanics as well )

It's not new that the orn economy is going crazy, it's BEEN crazy since ang 1.0, where getting 4 billion orns per hour is feasible, without event gears

Getting more then that with quality gear and grinding, orns as a currency doesn't have a bright future unless you did a reset and nerfed all orn bonus values down a peg or two, it would need a whole separate discussion on that topic itself

[tidal wyvern]

it's BEEN crazy since ang 1.0, where getting 4 billion orns per hour is feasible, without event gears

how did we get to this numbers out of nowhere 🤯 ....???

we had 500 mil/hour from full equiped, event + one time use allegiance proof from memory hunt

we had 500 mil/hour from "totally busted" 1 shot bosses in ang1.0 in hoa (which was you claim and i had lower numbers from other claims saying 250-300 at mid-high ALs)

and then 1 bil/hour from high AL deity/rs/heretic runs

[tight dagger]

#1449963223724855448 message

Even so averaging 1 bil orns per hour is pretty orn economy breaking, a lot of people AL 100+ are hard grinders

24 hours=24 billion orns, that's still much crazier then orns used to be, back in my day 1 million orns an hour was top 👴 these days it's over X10 that value

Pricing anything with orns since ang 1.0 was already something from a broken currency

( also yeah memory hunting is extremely broken, 500mil orns per hour+tens of thousands of mats, it's basically THE AL breaking activity and will always be especially since the titans/giants event )

[tidal wyvern]

that was zerk fallen boss, so you can nonstop killing fallen bosses and no other bosses spawn? 1 each 10 sec? i will skip the part where this one was zerk so its x3

[tight dagger]

Chaos scroll, and on ang 1.0 it was 3s a boss if you weren't using summoner XD

Map reset was the only thing holding you back, but if you did it on a decent running phone or PC, you could map resest within 3-5 seconds

We had people hitting 300-400 billion orns in ang 1.0 without endless being a factor into orns gains for our side of things, bosses were much easier to cycle and 1 tap back then granted

You can make more orns on a boss NOW then before BUT you won't likely one shot it unless you had the very best BIS gear

[tidal wyvern]

24 hours=24 billion orns, that's still much crazier then orns used to be, back in my day 1 million orns an hour was top 👴 these days it's over X10 that value

umm, how long do you play? 6y+ ago when T8 was max tier? cuz even 5y ago and with T10 classes you could earn much more than 1 mil/hour ... ?????

and 24 hours for 24 bil is still some big time invesment, meanwhile same AL as me:

[tight dagger]

I played back in 2019-2021 on orna left for a while and came back but to HOA instead, and back then there wasn't many talking about being able to average 1 mil orns per hour, could be wrong though 🥴👴 Ik I was only making maybe 600k orns in an hour XD that's if I drove around some

Orns as a currency has overall been quite overthrown though, it's beyond a saving currency unless it has some other long term spending values other then AL's

Mats and gold both are actively used for many things other then just 1 time unlocks and a stagnant limit breaker system, ang 2.0 added more value to mats as you have to spend them more to scale your equipment, however 2.0 also made orns even easier to obtain then 1.0 granted how far you go into 2.0 for that orns scaling bonus

You'd have to kill orns bonuses nearly by less then 1/4th they are now if we wanted to take orns as a serious currency

[tight dagger]

But If orn incomes are that much different between the games ( and it's value as a currency ) then I would recommend this change be for orna and not HOA

We do have many different things in our games and even different guilds, so this could be seen as a orna exclusive change 👍

[stiff marsh]

There is 0 reason to make it an orna-only change, you're just suggesting it on the basis that "orns don't really matter in HoA"

So why would nerfing endless be an issue then

[tight dagger]

Thank you for conformation that you don't read all my points, If any of them 😁

1. #1449963223724855448 message

2.#1449963223724855448 message

3.#1449963223724855448 message

I enjoy endless for the challenge and the ability to take on such a challenge with many different builds, I don't see it as a profit margin nor care for it being a profit margin, but others are not the same and I wouldn't want to rob them of an experience simply because it was deemed too profitable by the rest on a game that has a very different economy and how to achieve that economy, we simply have different orn economies and if you can't except that, you can't except that we can target farm certain items better too and idk what to say on that note?

Nerfing endless gains? Sure that would be okay for orna, on HOA it may be seen as another summoner hate crime and beating a dead horse down XD ( at the same time I'm not 100% against it, but the reasoning from the orna side does not match the HOA side )

Nerfing endless builds completely and the gains? Now you're forcing less diversity of builds and killing creativity of endless builds among summoners, on the one content we can enjoy most

[stiff marsh]

I'm not reading every post you make, no. But every time we talk about possible nerfs we are not aiming to "kill gsa endless", we are trying to make it reasonable gains (still better than other classes) instead of absurd gains where more anguish = deeper runs

[velvet rock]

Wasn't gs already the best class for depth endless? Pretty sure we're just talking about how summons scale with anguish bonuses, not destroying your ability to do endless

[shadow salmon]

In the case of HoA vs Orna only changes, technically Orna has infinite access to endless via way gates or something no? HoA on the other only has 5. Orna can stack 5x 24hr long endless runs and if they die in one they can queue up another one. In HoA if you have 5x 24hr endless queued up and you die in one, you can't queue another until after 24hrs

[tight dagger]

A lot of the suggested changes

Kill summoner build diversity within endless content, and many creativity of the challenge itself for us, rather then suggesting buffs to other classes and lessening orns bonus on endless to not be the main profit margin ( or the best one, but more so just for the challenge )

Rather then suggesting changes to the content that is the problem, we shift the blame to a class that's always excelled in this content ( wasn't the best at it 2 years ago but much better now ), and was handed more ways to do such content in more fun ways then it ever could ( just to revert it and leave it back to barren same old 2-3 builds again )

And on the orns economy topics orna and HOA are on different lvls of economy ( from our chats here )

Rather then nerf GSA endless cause of gains

But a lot of HOA community on our side has spoken against the change for HOA, we see different perspectives and this effects each game differently ( could come down to difference in our scaling as well, somewhere someone said we have less scaling in anguish content? )

But I've voiced why this should be a orna only change, endless isn't our only orns method nor is it the most ridiculous one ( we still have people on ang 1.0 racking up mats and orns on our side XD )

[velvet rock]

What suggestions have people made that would ruin gs ability to do endless? I don't think anyone here is arguing for that. Personally I think all it needs is a numbers tweak on anguish gear bonuses so that summons aren't outscaing the anguish difficulty increase

[tight dagger]

But I've stated my reasons

I'm probably 400 messages deep in this thread and we are definitely running circles XD ( I'll take blame in that )

I'm fine with this being my last statement for a while till we hear news, I thank y'all for hearing my standpoints regardless if we don't see eye to eye, and I understand how game breaking this can be from your standpoints as well

[velvet rock]

I don't think Odie gives a shit lol. Seems like he's kinda given up on balance for a while

[shadow salmon]

I don't blame him lol balancing means some people will dislike it.

Adding QoL or new content? At the very worst people will be indifferent

[velvet rock]

He's always been timid about nerfing things, he tries to please everyone

[tight dagger]

( read the paragraph again, you don't kill summoner's ability to do endless, you kill it's ability to do endless with different builds, it would be limited to two summons, AD/mammoth, no leeway for any other summon build and absolutely kills creativity of the challenge for us )

Which is turning off anguish, lessening anguish summon stats on gear, ect

Target specific nerfs on GS basically, rather then making the content less of a profit margin

[velvet rock]

My solution in no way hinders build diversity 🤔

[tight dagger]

Tweaking the numbers on anguish summon stats does

Not every summon has a 3000 power omnimancy spell, self healing, and higher stats then AD other then mammoth

Tweak numbers on anguish summon stats and you're making already either painful endless set ups for summoner more painful or unable to do so

(gazers, failed phoniex's,A.bloodwargs)

Every summon has different stat pools and movepools, MOST summons don't outscale enemy stats ( or even come close ) even T10 summons, some of our T10 summons are weaker then our T8 summons 🤣

Messing with summon stats is a overall nerf to EVERY respective summon

Nerfing outliners would be easier then nerfing ALL summons basically

[velvet rock]

Yeah I really don't think it affects diversity at all

You could nerf outliers sure. I'd be on board if it means that increasing anguish actually makes endless more difficult like it was intended and like it is for every other class

[tight dagger]

If you don't see how it would effect build diversity among summoners then you won't see it simply put

I'm okay pretending every summon has the same stats and they all scale the same 😁👍 but in till you actually try these builds and other summons you wouldn't truely see how summon stats effect them and make them viable

[velvet rock]

If you're saying you need a broken system to make bad summons work then I kinda get what you're saying, but I don't think it matters right now. Fix the broken system first

[tight dagger]

Kill build diversity, cause of certain outliner builds

Almost as If I said "beoA prom is too powerful" let's nerf all follower stats!

1. Nerfing all followers because of one outliner would be unfair

2. All followers scale differently and are only good in certain content

That's just reference on how that statement can be seen as^

Gazers was our most decent endless summon for a while, now without absurd summon stats they fall very far behind in endless content, BUT they are only viable in endless content, why make them unviable in all content because of an outliner summon?

Same can be said for some other named summons and builds among them, also if you set up gazers properly, it's nearly an hour or two hour process XD, but it is very viable atm if you are patient enough

If that helps clarity

[velvet rock]

"But our build diversity!" Just seems like a distraction to me. It doesn't address any of the issues people have brought up with the way gs is abusing anguish to make endless easier when it was already the strongest endless class without anguish. Build diversity is a totally separate issue. There's always going to be good summons, bad summons, good pets, bad pets. That has nothing to do with anguish not working as intended and gs abusing it

[tight dagger]

Agreed to disagree 😁👍, I've said what I've wanted to in this thread

[velvet rock]

Disagree on what exactly?

Simple, easy yes or no question for you: Do you think that increasing the anguish level of a piece of content should make said content more difficult?

Holy moly that is a lot of typing for a yes/no response 😂

[tight dagger]

I disagree on that statement "but our build diversity" and how you simply slandered the ability to have it

And it wasn't the strongest class in anguish before ang 2.0, rather it excelled better then most in endless content

But ofc we won't see eye to eye because instead of actually reading any of my points, you're blowing them off as an excuse or distraction

You're right no class should have build diversity in the content it excels at 😁👍

On that note, anguish scaling as I've said tens of times, isn't the same per summon

Anguish content already achieves its purpose of making content harder, there's just outliners as said

( I'm done talking for this thread for a while now, bye bye )

[velvet rock]

That doesn't answer my question 🙁

[tight dagger]

You didn't see my reaction to your question? 👍 meaning yes ( but you did ask two questions )

[twilit pumice]

While everybody thought before: anguish summon stats are broken because they are AL multiplicative, whereas all other gear stats (so for all other classes) are NOT AL multiplicative...

BREAKING NEWS:
Anguished gear stats seem to be perfectly AL multiplicative, too! But based on base stats (100%) not on quality drops! (which could make it feel not being AL multiplicative when tested by high AL players for 200% quality gear).
I think this could heavily change how anguished endless is perceived for other classes, too!

See here for details:
#🍂│late-game-⭐10 message

Big thanks to @ivory breach for extensive testing! 🥳 Additional testing by others welcome!

[stiff marsh]

It had been extensively tested before and it was not the case until recently. And perception has nothing to do with anguished endless, the reality is that no other class got deeper in endless with increasing anguish.

It's possible this change makes a difference, time will tell

[twilit pumice]

I don't think that this is true. I have never read before that anguish bonus could refer to base gear stats. And maybe gurnnink can tell us whether he was AL155 when he tested it (w/o finding a working formula), because in this case the new formula would explain his data from several months ago.

[stiff marsh]

I'm saying that when ang 2.0 came out, ang stats were not AL multiplicative at all, tested by many people. Odie must have stealth patched it 👍

[ivory breach]

It is important to note that while the anguished stats do scale with AL,

there is a bug either in how the stats are computed, or the anguished stats displayed on the item's page.
(already reported here #1460042928276639897 message)

Right now, the displayed value on the item's page shows a 3% increase with the quality taken into account,
but the actual change on the stats page uses the item's normal quality.
(this bug only affects actual stats like atk/def/mag/etc. not the summon/follower stats bonuses)

Either way, the most important real measurement is how much further GS can go than other classes.

I'm assuming that the quality was accidentally left out somehow,
and when that bug is patched people could get up to 2x the anguished stats they're getting now with a perfect weapon.

We'll have to wait and see which part is the bug.

[bold jewel]

After we finish this GS endless thread, can we focus on bulk order for guild shops next

[velvet rock]

And then let's talk about collateral damage 😄

[thick wolf]

I already made a thread for that a few days ago, about the guild interface and lack of bulk buy options.

[tidal wyvern]

I did it with AL11 in beta. I will look into that. 👌

[twilit pumice]

Ah, you had provided different data points for different ALs. The one I referred to is here (with AL148). So maybe you can use it as just another data point for testing the formula (my quick calculation on the phone might have been slightly wrong). It was late in my time zone 😅
#996100510069297255 message

[tidal wyvern]

Already in tier11 disc with gishe. You can check there.

Sadly also whole on mobile...wont get properly to pc today.

[dry hornet]

I mean, id be fine with maluses affecting summons, if it came with other stuff like gear bonuses and amities affecting them too xd

[bold jewel]

We need a lot of people in that thread so Odie can see it

[thick wolf]

With the amount of threads that emassed about it the Last few months, i think he us aware

[bold jewel]

I don't even think it's a hard thing to add in the game, it's just a bulk order for guild shops

[thick wolf]

It already exists in the game; the random amount mats dont belong and should be replaced with a bulkbuy Option; but i digress. We can continue this in my thread if you desire so ^^

[heavy basin]

as I wrote weeks ago just remove orn buffs from anguished endless. but I keep reading that anguish makes it easier for GS and that's just plainly false. if that was the case Mel 30 dungeons would be easier than Mel 1 and no, they aren't. summon stats on anguish gear make it so that GS can so higher anguish yes (in endless) but lol at this meme that endless anguish 30 is easier than anguish 1. it isn't. and it's quite scary to claim otherwise for us, because internalizing that (false) claim would allow for nerfs to summon stats in all anguished content. and gs sucks already in all content lol. yes I know the intention of ppl here is to touch endless exclusively. but that's not how NF does things often enough. so please don't touch summon stats scaling which are the only thing making GS barely playable in all content

[stiff marsh]

Do you have evidence that endless anguish 20 doesn't end up going deeper than endless anguish 1? I say 20 because I'm pretty sure above 20 the enemy scaling is higher

We've seen crazy depth at high melancholy. Why would summoners be pushing ang like that if it wasn't easier and made them stronger? The orn bonus is nice but not that nice

[heavy basin]

it looks like "easier" only because it's overkill by a zillion so even 2x harder doesn't make it harder. Basically you never even come vaguely close of dying because summons aren't enough. You always die because of very bad chain of rng well before summons have problems. people aren't going to run 100 anguish 1 vs 100 anguish (say) 15 just to show that at floor /(say) 900 you need 3 attack in vs zerk boss instead of 2 at higher mel; it's still a doable amount and you stil kill the zerk and prob don't even notice the difference

[true bronze]

My suggestion is to make anguished endless bring no rewards, splitting endless in 2.

[empty lark]

The issue with GSA is, compared to other classes and in any content, that it is slow to set up, but once it's done he is very very strong. That's why he explodes every other classes in endless, but he is worst (which just mean slower) in other content.

To fix that we probably need to give more power at the beginning of fights but nerfing his full set-up. But it probably needs more than just some number changes.

[tidal wyvern]

It is easier. That woud be problem with endless and anguish stats being additive, so more floors you can go, the less impactful anguish enemy stats are.

Ie. for Orna
Floor1000 mel0 enemy are 2100%
Floor1000 mel20 enemy are 2500%
(19% increase)
Floor1000 mel40 enemy are 3380% (60% increase)

And as I said, since melancholy is static number, the higher floor you are able to go (higher AL you are), less impactul melancholy enemy stats are.

While summons, at AL100
At mel0 they are 1218%
At mel20 they are 1818%
(49% increase)
At mel40 they are 2418%
(98% increase)

So floor1000enemy are just partially stronger, while your summons are double stronger (doesnt matter what AL, it is just melancholy impact).

And this gap is even bigger in hoa, since your anguish is weaker.

[storm valve]

nerfing the set up we have now means killing summon raiding, yel + ophion is the only way to make summon raid speed acceptable

[tidal wyvern]

GS is not slow to setup since Yelm gear exist. I have 5-6 min setup done and in hour since start Im in f1000+. 🤷‍♂️

[true bronze]

Im with gurn here, maybe bc i done alot endless and im just used to it. I can fully setup in 7min and it'll be alot shorter once i get wintra fomo set.

[empty lark]

Not really, it depends how you do it. Are you using triple zerk + asteria + whatever in your raids? Removing the option of those buff while allowing us to put the usual faster/with less restrictions would nerf endless while accelerating raiding (for example)

@tidal wyvern I'm not talking about endless set-up which is indeed fast, but tower/horde dungeons that take way more time than any other classes (we have to summon, buff them while maintening ward, while other classes just put 2 buffs and let the pet do the rest)

[true bronze]

I agree with dgs, sometimes in lair dgs it takes me to f10 to even have 5 summons and by the time i buff its alr done. Not sure about tower since towers are pretty nice with my setup.

[storm valve]

i use bear/jinn, warcry/magic and wyrm song with ophion stance and 2 yel pieces, i don't even need to look at ward thanks to sky legs, i can even pass spiked pauldrons/greaves to penguins and mammoth easily now and just steam roll raids, nerfing the set ups speed in endless means nerfing one or more of these gear pieces ence nerfing summoner in other content where th problem is being able to set up summons fast

[stiff marsh]

Why are we talking about dungeons in the endless thread

[empty lark]

Because if you change a class while looking at one content only you might destroy the rest of the content?

[storm valve]

he was suggesting about slowing the set up speed of gs in endless, I was explaining how doing so would be terrible for gs in every other content especially raids

[empty lark]

I'm never talked about nerfing the speed, I talked about make it faster but weaker at full buffs (since we put all the buffs in the world on our summons). I said that slowness was an issue !

[stiff marsh]

Slowness is not an issue in endless. Nerfing the anguished endless absurdity is the goal, not nerfing GS in other content

[storm valve]

To fix that we probably need to give more power at the beginning of fights but nerfing his full set-up
i missread this than sorry

[true bronze]

The changes they want would apply endless only, like my suggestion. However from what ik, often suggestions that would nerf summon stats for example, will be also made for other content. (My opinions is peak by far here, ik im humble)

[empty lark]

If you want a very caricatural idea of my proposition, it would be:

• start with 5 summons
• remove possibility of putting permanent buffs on summons
• summon have by default atk+ atk++ mag+ mag++ crit+

It would be faster in any content
It would be way weaker in endless because we can't cap with zerks + asteria + pauldrons + snotra + affinity + whatever

[true bronze]

I mean, i'd take it but that would be way too op for other contents.

[empty lark]

Ofc, it is the extreme opposite of what we have right now, the goal is to find a balance between the two ! (that's why the very caricatural is in bold)

[tight dagger]

Hecks no, you kill almost any summon diversity with this

( and without gaits/zerks/affinity, you make GSA raiding much worse )

But something that would completely fix all headaches would be fixing snapshotting completely ( though you kill GSA dungeons doing so, and a lot of endless build variety and ability to do it )

That or simply removing orn bonuses from endless so it's just for the challenge and not for the profit

[shadow salmon]

Eh if you remove the profit from endless then there's really no point. One of the arguments as to why BeoA world farming ORNS at anguish 50 would be that should that method of orn farming be gutted (and so it was) then endless would be the alternative.

Now if you remove the orn gain aspect from doing endless, then there's no real incentive for most of the playerbase to interact with that content, why all the effort and time spent with little returns only?

[restive turtle]

so are we deleting gs class or no?

[restive turtle]

the old set up is the one that's slow yelm gear made it less hassle to set it up

[fathom apex]

https://tenor.com/view/fire-writing-gif-24533171

[sour wasp]

Im a full time stubborn gilga, and getting orn is such a pain, every AL will have Orn Lock 🔒. Orn method is Endless but keed on dying at 300+ stage. Its been like this for quite some time to get to AL50 earning 50m orn per run.

Id say Delete Gilga 🥳 HAHAHA

[tidal wyvern]

Just take AL10 GS on mel20 and and you should be able to do 1 bil per single hour run. 🙂

[stiff marsh]

1 bil sounds about right, the AL0 video showed 700m in less than an hour

[twilit pumice]

I tend to agree here. The video is mel22 up to around F450/470 (with almost optimal gear - of course, it's abyss), which should be possible in around 40min, with 700m profit.

However, given that f450 is not much different from what is possible with other classes with Ang0/AL0 (my personal experience), the difference in orn gains seems to be mainly the anguish bonus here: around 130%? (I am not yet at mel22)

But given that summon Stats should slightly outscale enemy stats, wouldn't Ang0 bring GS endless (for low AL) down to a worse performance than other classes? First, because of summon stat reduction, second because zerks can't be applied anymore (no perma fade, and GS can't self heal with ashen rubies).

Another proposal was: completely kicking the orn bonus from anguish path (for endless only?). This could indeed be an interesting alternative.

I know, this view is focused on low AL. However, I am never a big fan of balancing stuff based on high AL only, when they represent only a very small percentage of player base.

[storm valve]

I feel like all this thread shows is that Endless in general needs a revamp, it's the format in general that enables this type of cheese/abuse

[tidal wyvern]

Another proposal was: completely kicking the orn bonus from anguish path (for endless only?). This could indeed be an interesting alternative.

And high anguish farming will hit mainly high AL players. Low AL won't really have to care. GS was best endless class even before ang, so why it should bring it below other classes?

[empty lark]

Isn't high anguish hard horde boss a good orn source for classes that can't do endless (like Gilga)?
It was with old anguish but idk with the new one

[tidal wyvern]

You can get orns. It is worse than endless by a lot. It is immeasurably worse than GS endless.

[twilit pumice]

I must admit: I never run endless with summoner without Anguish (perma fade) and Yel gear. So I don't know for sure how good it performs. Yes, casting with max summon stats, buffing, and switching to full farming gear (while still doing max damage) makes endless THE content for summoner.

• Low AL: However, my expectation is, that for Ang0/AL0 GS doesn't perform particularly well in endless. Dara has the advantage that he gets 100 ALs “for free” thanks to Apex passive, which can likely (over?)compensate the difference of lower stats due to farming gear.
• High AL: With the corresponding ALs, it looks different: with AL100 double summon stats vs. with Dara only a 50% increase (from 200% to 300% stats). So the situation likely changes for high AL - similar to dungeons for BeoH (AL multiplicative passive) vs Dara (AL additive passive).

And for most other classes, it is easier to deal with zerks due to ashen ruby. As GS you can only drink potions, not only removing the ability for stun dart but also for any interaction within endless (only "endless" potion clicking). Not entirely serious comparison: How would you feel if, as a deity in endless, you could either a) no longer use Zerks, or b) no longer use ashen rubies? 😉

Sidenote: I know a lot of people who use GS endless guide, but have low AL for GS and not maxed anguished gear. Yes, most of them find GS (with perma fade etc) more profitable than Dara, but they are far from reaching 1B orns per hour; instead they are rather happy if they get around 500 million. Don't forget tha massive orn scaling: With 100 ALs, you have double summon stats so you should reach around double floors -> F500 vs F1000 (identical Mel) is around x5.5 orns!

But I am happy to hear different views, particularly based on personal experience.

[stiff marsh]

Personal experience - there is no way that D.Ara reaches floor 450 in orn gear at AL 0. I got to 400 with insane luck once, 450 is at the very least unreasonable to expect.

Meanwhile, the summoner al 0 mel 22 got to ~450 and it was normal/unlucky RNG

[twilit pumice]

Personal experience: My best out of <10 total orn runs that I did with Dara: AL 10, Floor 465, full orn. With switching from seal to ultima build, much more should be possible. 🤷

[stiff marsh]

Ultima = over 40% orn loss, and of course that 10 AL difference is very meaningful

[twilit pumice]

200 vs 210% stats -> 5% more power. So around 20 floors expected difference. But yes, ultima has lower orn income. But the main reason that I never tried Endless/Ultima build: at that time I did not yet have a cele weapon, so no quickcast. And with all my crit adorns, I could only get around 40% crit - which is not ideal for a full crit build 😂 So Seals build was much more easily accessible as a new Orna player.

[twilit pumice]

I was just looking at my messages from my first Dara endless runs (I was quite excited, so I wrote it in my kingdom discord). My very first full orn runs (with zero Deity knowledge in the first runs), all w/o monumental shrines: F218/303/391/F400+ reward/(2 or 3 missing runs)/F465. But of course, I don't know how representative this is. Just my personal runs.

[stiff marsh]

Ultima is not full orns though 👍

Also this was definitely when d.ara passive was higher than 100%, at minimum it was 120%

[twilit pumice]

My runs were all with seals build, so full orn. As I said, I didn't have a cele staff or crit adorns for ultima build. And it was May 2025 - I am almost sure that at that time it was already 100% apex.
Correction: 120%. Just a few days before the nerf.

[mossy portal]

#patch-notes message

Nerf to Dara passive happened in May.