2025 H2 General Discussion

[viscid pawn]

Chakrams does not

[mortal pawn]

Dex is not a boogeyman

[viscid pawn]

Ursa also yea always hits but doesnt crit right?

I mean it is if ya play beo

[mortal pawn]

We have to stop being afraid of dex builds

[viscid pawn]

Beo has no dex XX

XD

[viscid pawn]

Isnt even dex builds

[mortal pawn]

I main beoH and have no problem hitting realmDs with dex

Without flat miss

Dex is not a boogeyman

Ss3 flat miss is lazy

[viscid pawn]

You will have 40% miss chance unless you put a lot into accuracy dex or a lot of ALs above tjem

[clever kindle]

Didn’t say it’s the boogeyman, just stating that ss3 having a fixed miss chance was nice for it

[viscid pawn]

Gilgy also has same issue

Cant use anything but ss3 in pvp or just... miss all the time XD

[clever kindle]

Also I’m comically unlucky with hitting rsds

[mortal pawn]

Gilg would get accuracy compensation in place of the flat miss removal somehow if this goes through

[viscid pawn]

Yea which would be nice since other attacks on gilgy arent good. Except as gursa

Gursa can use rs2 to insane effect

[clever kindle]

Or anything that dodges a lot tbh

[viscid pawn]

Gursa does have decent dex tho too

[mortal pawn]

Every time we discuss flat miss removal people are always quick to rush to the 'dex problem' (that doesnt exist). Only lack of dex options for gilga is the real problem. Nobody else has a real issue

[viscid pawn]

I mean it does for certain classes

Like gilg mainly. Beo second

[mortal pawn]

Yeah gilga thats it

[viscid pawn]

Beo has options tho

[mortal pawn]

Beo can wear any gear in the game

[viscid pawn]

Gilgy doesnt

[mortal pawn]

Cool so we agree 🤝

[viscid pawn]

Yup which is why I wasnt saying it would invalidate the class

Oh yea definitely haha

Just saying if they do add dex to it give that homing shield to gilgy XD

And it is nice that there is an option available to beo to ignore dex without using accuracy gear / ranger spec or just out leveling people. Was the thing I disliked playing heretic too. Needed to stack so much dex on pvp build before. Now just run ranger on my heretic and no problems

Ranger spec change really fixed most of the issues with accuracy

[plush badger]

whispers softly Flat miss shall be your mistress for all your days. 💀

[mortal pawn]

Yeah something along those lines for sure or just increased accuracy for using ward skills built in

[viscid pawn]

Tho I will say it is a bit dumb that it ignores dorito class ability to boost dodge

[mortal pawn]

It sure feels that way

[viscid pawn]

Even if that passive is crazy strong

[mortal pawn]

Flat miss completely invalidates an entire classline (realm) and stat (dex)

Exactly

[viscid pawn]

Yea. Mystic feather rarely sees use in pvp so 2 rs classes not using it... and dorito one that works all the time is negated :/

[tepid halo]

ironically on that topic I'm generally more concerned about mystic feather in PvE

[viscid pawn]

While it is my saving grace vs dorito players... I do think it is dumb haha

Mystic feather in pve is fine tho really. It is nice but 60% chance isnt that insane. It is really good though

Most enemies that are dangerous use an ele and heretic gets 50% chance to negate while at full hp

[tepid halo]

berserk fallen realmshifter

[viscid pawn]

🤣🤣

Ah you mean enemies

[tepid halo]

yeah

[viscid pawn]

Thought ya meant rs class was too strong in pve hha

[tepid halo]

oh you thought I was referring to the player having it nah

[viscid pawn]

Uea berserk rs with anguish 2nd chance malus 💀

[tepid halo]

exactly

[viscid pawn]

When playing deity that is time for apex spell XD

Never miss and crazy high m1 haha

But yea perfect shot or bolt 4 have too low m1 to kill them

[tepid halo]

I'm just sitting here like fuck I have to snapshot onto my ss3 specifically for this stupid guy

[viscid pawn]

Mana-ray/blood ray fix it for heretic tho if ya don't instantly die

Ss3 does not ignore mystic feather

Collateral does tho XD

[tepid halo]

oh well I'm just stupid apparently

[viscid pawn]

Hit a diff enemy :p

[tepid halo]

that's not news though

[stiff hollow]

i don't want to start a flame war but i don't understand why the class that is already by far the best at all content (beo) got buffed while the only close rival (deity) was demolished by stead fast removal

[viscid pawn]

Collateral chance 100% hit another enemy. Collateral generally hits weakest (lowest hp) enemy

[stiff hollow]

i speak as someone who will hoc to whatever is best regardless so i am not like "omg my class got nerfed"

[viscid pawn]

Yea deity isnt even op anymore

[tepid halo]

this might be a mega hot take but beoh is only strong because it uses ss3 as a crutch

[viscid pawn]

They do not need a nerf anymore

[tepid halo]

in my opinion

[stiff hollow]

beoh is dramatically better than anyone else shackled in tower

[viscid pawn]

Eh beo A also very strong. Block beo ftw X

XD

[stiff hollow]

like not even comparable to anyone else

[viscid pawn]

Esp with new yel helmet lol

[stiff hollow]

and tower is by far the most important content to clear fast, like immensely more important than everything else

also beoa is infinitely better than anyone else at raiding like dramatically , insanely better

like solo agony 50

[viscid pawn]

Well yea block beo I made an example of just steam rolling towers in a status immunity build a while back

[stiff hollow]

because stasis

[viscid pawn]

Anguish 1.0

[tepid halo]

yeah but judging a class's strength on one form of content seems kind of incomplete

[viscid pawn]

Correct

[stiff hollow]

sure raiding beo is 10x better the second best

[tepid halo]

I don't play auriga so I'll defer judgement

[stiff hollow]

tower beoh is a lot better than anyone else

[viscid pawn]

Gilgy raiding is easy. Heretic too

[stiff hollow]

dungeons beoh is very close to best up until mel 20-25

[viscid pawn]

Rs very easy

[stiff hollow]

what else?

[stiff hollow]

at agony 40?

[viscid pawn]

Beo is good too but it has competition

Frenzy :p

Deity can still 0 raids out at anguish 50 shackles js

Abyss made a demo of that XD

[stiff hollow]

do yuo do torment 30 towers with any other class other than beoh one click clearing the floor shackled?

ss3

is being nerfed for all classes

[viscid pawn]

Well classes are better at diff things

[stiff hollow]

• steadfast loss

i said deity pre this patch is close to beo

this patch is "let's make beo the infinitely better class at everything"

[viscid pawn]

I havent raised my shackles high on tower but I could wipe towers quick and easy as dursa or dara

[stiff hollow]

i mean no prob i will hoc to beo but is it intended?

[viscid pawn]

Heretic ara makes towers a joke

[stiff hollow]

at which torment

[viscid pawn]

Heretic AL 18 beat deity 50 AL in tower clearing

[stiff hollow]

i am not sure we are talking the same game

at low anguish every class does everything

i am talking high anguish

[viscid pawn]

Which is why I said I havent raised anguish too high but ik deity players who clear anguish 30+ towers easy with yel staff. Heretic too

Heretic ara sigil flask and vestaga entire floor also

[tepid halo]

did the dev team put out performance metrics this time around?

[viscid pawn]

Dof spec for extra turns from dead ones if ya miss one

But yea deity shouldnt be nerfed

[tepid halo]

anecdotal evidence is not a strong form of evidence

[stiff hollow]

evidence of "which class to the top people on leaderboard hoc to" should be relevant

[viscid pawn]

And not saying beo is weak in towers or not even not the best

Just the others still do quite well

And quickly

[stiff hollow]

if we are starting with beo at least in the podium of classes if not already the best

how can it get a significant BUFF lol

[tepid halo]

I mean I'll grant that additive bonds ought to have numbers adjustments

[stiff hollow]

almost everyone in the top 30 in HoA hocced to beo

in the last few months

[clever kindle]

I would like to point out that it is abyss doing that, that’s not near the average deity

[viscid pawn]

Is beo getting buffed?

[tepid halo]

mainly through the bb change

[stiff hollow]

yes bb buffs are getting better

[viscid pawn]

Shackled tho

[stiff hollow]

and pet AI getting better

[viscid pawn]

Ah

[stiff hollow]

which means the class that ALREADY was BY FAR the best at high agony raiding, by an insane margin

got better

lol

[tepid halo]

but I also maintain that the old formula for calculating +bb effects was nonsensical

[clever kindle]

He’s still got perfect gear man

[viscid pawn]

Well tbh the spells on bb3 just ruined beo A A lot of the time

[viscid pawn]

I mean a lot of players do

[stiff hollow]

not the amities

but it doesn't matter

[viscid pawn]

I have perfect gear on my deity. My gilgy gear is less tho

Amities effect m2

[stiff hollow]

AL 130-140 beo

[viscid pawn]

Nit m1

And are offense for abyss

[clever kindle]

Anyways, I, for one, shall be embracing our new gilg and beo overlords 😂😜

[stiff hollow]

in duo can kill agony 45 great anguish raid

in 30-40 sec

i am not sure you guys know that

[viscid pawn]

Was talking about 0ing them out haha

[tepid halo]

I can't say I'm overly familiar with AL130+ gameplay but isn't that a vanishingly small portion of players?

[viscid pawn]

Anguish bonuses for damage are boosting m2

[viscid pawn]

Shackles

[clever kindle]

What even is the shackle level at Al 50v there’s a chance that his shackle level is over his al

[stiff hollow]

same proportion they nerfed ss3 scaling after al100 for in the previous patch

[tepid halo]

I mean in my opinion the ss3 scaling change last time was flawed but the horses are out of the barn on that front

[stiff hollow]

actually higher because AL-ing is very easy these days so i assume more and more people are al100+ now

because of time and very easy mat access (and infinite orns if you hoc to gs)

[clever kindle]

?

[stiff hollow]

agony is infinite proofs basically

like 4k+ per hour

(for beo)

[clever kindle]

But what is the shackle level for agony 50

[stiff hollow]

i think around 160, why?

[clever kindle]

Abyss may be below that so it doesn’t matter if he’s shackled or not

[stiff hollow]

yes and?

abyss doesn't kill super quick

towerfall can deal 100m+ damage

in duo with lotan it's easier than you think

you can start 1hp already fully redlined

[clever kindle]

I’m talking about this

Also I know towerfall hits like a truck, that’s why I’m embracing the new beo/gilg overlords

[past cobalt]

I do think Beo is overbuffed atm

[viscid pawn]

Well i mean they scale higher than the ALs per anguish level in shackles. So being able to 0 it is still a lot.

But when it comes to nerfing ALs im always against that

People earned those

[past cobalt]

Anguish gear follower stat% bonuses are quite high, bestial bond calculation changes enable ridiculously high stat builds, only content they don't excel at is endless

[viscid pawn]

Half the fun in pvp is fighting high AL enemies

Mingus and heatnick are the only ones who potentially survive a hit XD

[stiff hollow]

i mean they can go ultradeep even in endless, they just don't excel at orn endless

[viscid pawn]

But yea the removal of bb3 spells that basically nerfed beo is the biggest thing that is nice but beo didnt really need other buffs.

[stiff hollow]

in which case the gs comparison is mandatory and... it is quite insane i admit

[viscid pawn]

Mammon acolyte was terrible when it was spamming bolt volley in anguish

Esp since Ai int makes them use it more :/ at least when I tested it a while back idk if that changed

[tepid halo]

eh I still maintain that the old +bb formula was extremely unintuitive and the new one makes more sense though it needs a significant numbers adjustment

[fallow sphinx]

What would you change?

[past cobalt]

Honestly, no clue

[clever kindle]

Making the pets affected by anguish could be something

[stiff hollow]

hybrid from beoh should apply on pre-al stats

[clever kindle]

Idk how effective that would be, although personally I’m against harsh nerfs like that, I’d prefer to buff

[past cobalt]

Sure yeah. More gear consideration for anguish

[stiff hollow]

maluses should apply to the pet in raids

[clever kindle]

Once again not really a beo specific thing, but asg should be more expensive for how stronk it is

[stiff hollow]

no one is using it anymore in the endgame

it's all about towerfall

[mortal pawn]

Is there something you tested that made you feel this way?

Curious to see screenshots or something

[fallow sphinx]

The problem with towerfall is stasis

[stiff hollow]

@fallow sphinx if your AL 0 mag is 6000 and att is 6000, you shoul dgain 40% of 6000 at ANY AL

like lines, they don't scale with AL

[past cobalt]

Well you sent screenshots of the difference in stats pre and post bestial bond changes

[fallow sphinx]

Otherwise you're super squishy

[stiff hollow]

hybrid scaling with al is just broken

[viscid pawn]

Well ik old bb was great but I didnt play it enough to comment so im not going to talk about it much really

[fallow sphinx]

I mean that would destroy the class imo. Insta hoc from me

[viscid pawn]

Ill leave that to the people who play with bb bonuses more

Since while I used to play beo a lot, I havent since bond boosts became more common

[stiff hollow]

the class is completly out of line man

[viscid pawn]

And beo H all the way since :p

[mortal pawn]

I did? Where?

[stiff hollow]

i am doing stuff better at al 40 in beo than 197 in gs

[fallow sphinx]

Not really

[stiff hollow]

really

[fallow sphinx]

oh well thats' gs

[stiff hollow]

like dramatically overpowered

[fallow sphinx]

just delete that class lol

[stiff hollow]

like deity pre nerfs

especially with shackles it's not even funny

[viscid pawn]

Ik old beo I had fun with cleaning anguish 50 1.0 with AL 20 beo

In orn gear

🤣🤣

[fallow sphinx]

gs is not a class, outside of like endless and bloodpact

[mortal pawn]

Ah thats not me i see. Yeah thats pretty nutty

[stiff hollow]

sure but al 40 RS or hera is so much worse than beoh

[past cobalt]

Oh WHOOPS

[stiff hollow]

at dungeon torment monument

[past cobalt]

Lmao sorry

[stiff hollow]

like not even comparable

[viscid pawn]

Some nice def there

[stiff hollow]

maybe dungeons doing right path RS can play

[viscid pawn]

Using morri gear or something?

[stiff hollow]

but tower is the most important content by far

and beoh is just utterly broken there at same AL shackled

[fallow sphinx]

At what? They both deal more damage than beoH at that al becuase of crit passives

[icy cloak]

Beyond seeing big number stats, where exactly is Beo broken?

Or is there a general feeling because of high AL stats? (Which is an AL problem not a class)

Or are we targeting specifically BeoH?

[viscid pawn]

Or is thay a bond bonus thing?

If so that is crazy haha

[tepid halo]

it wasn't bb themselves it was the +bb bonus on gear being practically zero impact; the way the formula worked was if you had for example an 8% bb and equipped gear with a +30% bb bonus, the actual bonus conferred was 30% of 8% or 2.4% which was quite unintuitive imo

[past cobalt]

Sirith with 10 less ALs and slightly worse gear, but with new bb changes
#1437494599718404197 message

[mortal pawn]

Yeah im on your side that seems a bit overtuned

[viscid pawn]

Yea

[mortal pawn]

Thanks for the evidence on that

[clever kindle]

I will say beo h gets some ridiculous offense

[stiff hollow]

already being able to wear all gear is a massive bonus that should cost in some terms elsewhere, but it doesn't. I mean stats shoul dall be lower for the "all gear classes" (original sin of this game)

but other than that getting free line from pet is broken

[tepid halo]

the new formula would add 30% to 8% for a total 38% which is why I think a numbers adjustment is warranted

[past cobalt]

And bestial bond % scale with gear quality and anguish, if I'm.not mistaken

[fallow sphinx]

Eh? Deity gets that too. And pet is just for passive buffs for beoH

[stiff hollow]

rs can't even play the same game because bl2 >> everything else

[viscid pawn]

Biggest noticeable thing i did with it was the crit chance boost for fjalar using fey gerd gear

[stiff hollow]

yes pre nerf deity was the only other comparable class

[clever kindle]

Deity may be getting its legs chopped out this patch by losing steadfast on its celestials

[stiff hollow]

deity and beo shoul dhave significantly lower mag than hera

[viscid pawn]

Getting 100% crit but took a lot of investment

[stiff hollow]

and lower att than rs/gilga

all gear = it shoul dcost a lot elsewhere

they are inherently broken until that happes

beo had a dex problem at least

but 7 accuracy on helm with anguish is broken for beo and fixes that

also for some reason beoh second chance resurrects the pet in dungeons in the next floor

which makes it identical to second chance

[clever kindle]

Wait seriously?

[stiff hollow]

yep

[clever kindle]

That’s cool, learn something new everyday

[stiff hollow]

i mean to be clear i will just play whatever is best

[tepid halo]

it's not identical to second chance in that it still can't trigger twice on one floor

[viscid pawn]

Ah right forgot about that one

[stiff hollow]

but the fact beoh is so much better than alternatives

is a bit insane

given this patch... buffs it lol

[fallow sphinx]

I forget we have psudo second chance most of the time

How?

[stiff hollow]

which is immaterial honestly, you trigger it because the surviving 2nd chancer on the other side hits you

[viscid pawn]

Gs also resummons

[stiff hollow]

then you kill it

[viscid pawn]

If all summons die

[tepid halo]

berserk fallen realmshifter

[viscid pawn]

Even if you are dead in party mode XD

[fallow sphinx]

Base and BeoA are getting buffed, BeoH is staying the same?

[tepid halo]

beoh will still benefit from additive bonds

[viscid pawn]

Well bond bonus for beo H

Is huge

[fallow sphinx]

Nah

[stiff hollow]

why? beoh has bb1 bb2

[viscid pawn]

Run anguish pet

🤣🤣🤣

[fallow sphinx]

We don't care about the stat bonds at all. If you're using gerds on beoH you're doing something wrong

[stiff hollow]

anyway beo class isn't "only" beoh

[viscid pawn]

Hm?

[stiff hollow]

beoA as well utterly broken (you say because stasis, might be)

[viscid pawn]

Not really. Beo H with Gerd is great if this bond boost is gonna do that much

[stiff hollow]

still beoa getting buffed lol

[viscid pawn]

High ward def and res

[fallow sphinx]

Where are you gonna use gerds on beoh?

[tepid halo]

it's numbers dependent

[viscid pawn]

With a huge buff to pet? 🤣🤣

[past cobalt]

Have you seen the bond changes

[viscid pawn]

Have you looked at bond on some of the pets?

Thinking Gerd gear is pretty awesome

[tepid halo]

as implemented right now the stat gain from additive bonds is... significant

[viscid pawn]

Esp with bond boost a while back on it

[viscid pawn]

One way to put it

[stiff hollow]

even if beoh isn't getting buffed as much as beoa

the classline is getting buffed objectively

[fallow sphinx]

What content are you gonna use gerds as beoH?

[stiff hollow]

and it was already the best classline for all content except endless orns

[viscid pawn]

Still think about the damage on ss3 hybrid amity

Pvp with Gerd

Using hybrid bonus of anguish pet

[past cobalt]

Bonds now scale with gear quality and they are calculated differently, where they are way strongef

[viscid pawn]

🤣🤣

[stiff hollow]

ss3 getting nerfed for all classes except gilga

[viscid pawn]

And attack mag boost

[tepid halo]

my first instinct was ward stacking

[stiff hollow]

pre this patch we had beo>deity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything else basically for all content except endless orns

like 90%+ of top 40 HoA leaderboard hocced to that (those that didn't quit the game lol, except me)

[viscid pawn]

Dont discount hp bonds

🤣🤣

For tank

[stiff hollow]

this patch nerfs deity significantly

and buffs beo lol

[viscid pawn]

Yup

[stiff hollow]

i don't understand that

[tepid halo]

that was the ward stacking instinct that first entered my head lol

[past cobalt]

I think the beo changes are intended to be qol/identity based with bonds and calls and such, but it's implemented in a way that is a significant buff with no tradeoff

[stiff hollow]

also the "if you snotra you towerfall more often" alone is MASSIVE

like really massive

like alone game changing buff

[near kindle]

stats are likely too high, yeah. the AI chances should give a good QoL improvements to turn economy issues/wasted turns

[mortal pawn]

^ 100% agree

[near kindle]

• bestial bond gear should be exciting

but we don't need runaway values

[mortal pawn]

Yeah they are currently runaway it seems

[past cobalt]

Thoughts on anguish gear bonuses for beo?

They seem to scale very high with little malus impact

[stiff hollow]

thought on applying maluses to the pet casting?

[near kindle]

malus adjustment gets a little nuts because it'll affect everyone's current anguish choices

[stiff hollow]

but if all classes get them except BeoA pets, you are just giving high agony to Beo as a gift

[past cobalt]

Are followers affected by anguish elemental damage malus?

[fallow sphinx]

So for more damage? Damage is definitely not something the class struggles with. Utility pets will probably still be better

[near kindle]

like, you need to replace a current malus with the follower debuff. adding to the pool means everything will be deterministically reset

[stiff hollow]

no i mean just apply character debuffs to pet actions

and give free pathspurs for agony to everyone with the patch

[near kindle]

which ones specically? many currently should apply to follower already

[past cobalt]

To this point, I think a big malus refresh could be accompanied by a pathspur code. Or maybe pathspurs could unlock each choice permanently

[clever kindle]

Permanent unlock would be pretty cool

[past cobalt]

That refresh could address other complaints from all classes

[stiff hollow]

i might be wrong but the -dragon - holy -dark - dragon maluses don't apply to pet towerfall?

[clever kindle]

I don’t think they do

[near kindle]

sidenote: why do these threads light up at 11pm? you had me all day when actually at work

[stiff hollow]

almost 5am here

[past cobalt]

We are out of work too I guess 😂 or maybe it's just new timezones popping in

[clever kindle]

Everyone’s procrastinating going to sleep

[fallow sphinx]

Towerfall will be fine if we just properly nerf stasis. You are the definiton of a glass cannon

[near kindle]

just play Orna at work, geeze

[past cobalt]

I already do and it's bad

[near kindle]

me too

studio should probably stop playing our own games

like everyone says we don't

[stiff hollow]

you can towerfall with 3 fey gerd gear + autumna shield and 1 epee for very solid damage

[near kindle]

🙂

[past cobalt]

They apply from amities so in theory the malus should hit them too... but idk

[stiff hollow]

especially with this patch

[near kindle]

yeah, amity effect and anguish is no different. iirc they currently affect followers but could be wrong

[stiff hollow]

well if they do i am mistaken then

[past cobalt]

We need a beo main to spill the beans

[near kindle]

i'm afk, so can't verify via the code

[past cobalt]

@young cobalt does elemental malus in anguish affect towerfall

[granite robin]

It should

I cant test it effectively tho bc ive been avoidin those

[near kindle]

lol

[young cobalt]

It does afaik

Actually I can say with confidence they do cause I have alot more of the elemental maluses in my torment choices than my agony choices and my Towerfall at the same level with the same build does like 6mil less Dmg

[granite robin]

Yea

[viscid pawn]

Tis fun tho. Also if using ss3 there are plenty of people ya need damage for :p but yea the hp or defense ones probably best overall

[past cobalt]

Against titans? Keep in mind they have floor 50 scaling

Or maybe you tested against event tower floor 1

[viscid pawn]

Those have been fun to hit

Forgot how squishy old titans were before the scaling boost

And the hp bonus from 50 floors XD

One shot titans has been amusing

[past cobalt]

Follower stat scaling in anguish is a bit crazy I think

[viscid pawn]

Uea I eas meaning to ask about that change

[past cobalt]

Basically every gear gets the base stat boost and an additional 3% per anguish level of the gear

[viscid pawn]

Was off for a bit and noticed it shows up twice now

[past cobalt]

That's multiplicative per piece of gear

[viscid pawn]

Does it actually boost from both? Or just the higher so that you don't lose stats for first few

[past cobalt]

Both

[viscid pawn]

Yea it gets crazy high at 50

Oh wow that is insane

[past cobalt]

So that's basically five 3% boosts to follower stats per anguish level

[river moss]

each piece of gear that gets +follow stats gets an additional +3% follow boost per level

[viscid pawn]

Which is why Gerd gear is awesome tho that you get bond and crazy high bonus 😄

[viscid pawn]

Yea that is awesome. Was off for a bit and havent been on beo much lately

So was wondering about that

😄

[river moss]

I believe as of this beta patch, it's additive though (vs multiplicative)

[viscid pawn]

My purly less favorite staff ascends to greater heights!!

Which is great because that is still amazing. Multiplicative is just insane

Thought it was additive before since beo mains always told me it was and I never really went back and checked the math XD

[past cobalt]

That's not in patch notes, are you sure?

[viscid pawn]

Well i mean some stuff gets left out by accident and they edit it back in, could be one of those?

But idk

[river moss]

They might've been in the alpha patch notes but not in beta, dunno if it's part of this or not

[viscid pawn]

Ah so maybe in the future might not be this set of changes

[river moss]

Some changes that are part of this beta weren't included in the patch notes, so that might be part of that crowd

[drowsy flax]

Northern Forge, pls dont implement an appraising currency, just let us batch appraise in the appraiser building for gold or orns.

But cmon, dont force us to long click through hundreds if not thousands of items.

P.S: I have no idea if this is really going somewhere or if "its just a beta thing" but pls, dont address the appraise system problem like that, anything mass and fast so people can finally cleanup our inventories so both individual players and the servers as a whole lag less

[grave siren]

Mmm it's not like towerfall pets only have towerfall as their only mag based skill though, they also have rune of titans, Oceanus has frost skills, eos has Titan seals, and prom seems to like Titan strikes as well

So mag based skills are still somewhat balanced by bloat spells. Just had one run with snotra jinn golem fort buffs but my prom spammed rune of titans and Titan strike 9x before doing a towerfall

[winged wraith]

Is there any rs thread? 🥹

We kinda feel left out…

😢

[royal jacinth]

There's no RS changes, so I'm not sure what you want to be discussed in a RS thread lol

[winged wraith]

Precisely 😢 we feel left out bc we didn’t get any changes

Im glad gs got one tho deserved 🙂

[royal jacinth]

Arguably you're a little less left out than deity who only got nerfed

[winged wraith]

Also deserved (dont come after me deities Im sorry)

[clever kindle]

Deserved yes, but I also think the removal of steadfast after 6 years of having it is brutal

[near kindle]

It’s a different game than 6 years ago

[plush badger]

Orna Classic ™ when?

[granite robin]

This is already on live

[past cobalt]

Yes, and it is already crazy

[granite robin]

Ehh no

[past cobalt]

15% follower stats per anguish level is pretty crazy yeah

[granite robin]

3

15% is base of the gear

Its not 15+15+ x%per lvl

[past cobalt]

Or probably more like 15.9% since it's multiplicative. Five pieces with follower stats, 3% per, 1.03^5

[granite robin]

Anguished does not scale with als

[past cobalt]

Who said anything about ALs

ALs make it worse though

Just from five gear pieces you get 15.9% follower stats per anguish level

[granite robin]

Where do you get that 15

[azure python]

Just going to slow mode this channel as it is already at 1500 comments in less than a day, makes it hard on any analysis tools we might want to run through it.
Best to try keep the messages to one longer message, rather than hit enter on each line if that's ok folks! <3

[granite robin]

Its literally just 5x 3% per lvl (if fully geared)

[past cobalt]

That does math to 15%, yeah. If you read what I wrote I also explained why I said it would be 15.9%, but I don't know that for absolutely sure

[granite robin]

⁉️ pet beo is currently struggling in anguished content. Why do you think its crazy

[past cobalt]

What anguished content is pet beo struggling in? From what I hear it's one of the best choices in high anguish raiding for example

[faint estuary]

Are there any plans to bring this beta to iOS? I can only get away with playing on my wife’s phone for so long

[proper owl]

Just buy an android phone
They are made of sticks and duct tape and cost pennies anyway

[crisp oxide]

Can we get mammoth in beta somehow?

[crisp oxide]

Towers seem inaccessible for some reason

[rare mason]

With how much damage SS does on gilga now i dont think sacrificing stats for dex is'nt a big issue.
Or missing.

It probably is time for the removal of class restricted gear?
Or at least turning it into meele/magical & valsummonan

[azure python]

I'm not inserting an opinion there, just giving history :)
Was there something you were after from me?

[mortal pawn]

Ss3 flat miss poll currently at 91-19. Make sure to vote!

[rare mason]

I just expanded on that idea! Nothing wrong with it. Im thinking about how class restricted gear is influencing the game and the fact that most gear has specific stats like CD or Avidity that only works with full potential on the respective classes anyway, and that that a huge complain point that never gets mentioned for some reason when it comes to deity is Wear-Everything - that it might me time to remove class restrictions in gear.

[azure python]

Understood - the ping told me you needed me, hence asking

[dusty grail]

I'd an issue that is strictly beta related and does not concern the new content (built a tower and it says built by an ally)
Does it still go to beta bugs ?

[azure python]

Yeah any beta bug should go in that channel, regardless of if it's touched on in the patch notes <3
https://discord.com/channels/448527960056791051/1437502712513036318

[mortal pawn]

That's a pretty big change you're proposing. If everyone can wear everything, why even have classes at all?

Preserving class identity as much as possible is key in my opinion

[magic vapor]

./suggest Remove Celestial class's ability to wear other class's gear

This is a joke but this is genuinely what I'd prefer more than allowing everyone to wear everything

[mortal pawn]

^ agree would prefer this over making everyone deity

I like where we are at though. One celestial is able to wear one classes other gear per restricted class basically

[radiant stratus]

Lol. The people voting to keep as is are insane. Incomprehensible to me

[icy cloak]

I’m on board 🤷‍♂️ Heretic doesn’t get much out of it

[mortal pawn]

Theres probably a reason for it like its super easy for PVE and they dont care about PVP. Or maybe missing context like something will 100% replace the accuracy for gilga if its removed

[radiant stratus]

That would be interesting. But it would just make deity and beo much stronger.

[radiant stratus]

True. They prolly run rend epee builds on kingdom wars

[mortal pawn]

In this meta that sounds crazy but maybe correct 😅

[dusty grail]

weren't accuracy sources added last beta specifically to alleviate for gilga poor aiming ? No one is using those ?

[near kindle]

Homing Shield? no, it never made it to launch

[dusty grail]

I was thinking about ranger, but homing shield works too yes.
I feel like too many specs are disregarded and no one wants to put power on them because it would prevent them from using one of the few very strong options.

[mortal pawn]

Nothing beats oracle & BoF damage. Nobody wants to sacrifice speed or minmaxed damage for arguably necessary utility

[dusty grail]

yes, that's what I'm saying and IMO it's much more a balance issue than dursa having SF1 but somehow everyone wants to turn a blind eye on the state of specs.

[mortal pawn]

The state of specs is for sure a noted problem by NF, as evidenced by the new gear from last month.

The Dursa SF1 removal is a separate discussion. I am collecting ideas over in that thread if youd like to suggest some

[rare mason]

Base stats - special and unique passives like CD, avidity, Apex, Beast bonds, Mystic Feather, initial crit mults etc - class specific changed abilitys, like SS having more pen on gilga - Ascension beeing more cumbersome. Thats all i can brainstorm rn.

Classes evolved so much that locked equipment is hurting everything thats not deity or beo, and feels very much outdated, as most pieces of Equipment can only be utilized fully by some classes regardless of lock.

[plush badger]

All the utility in the world does you no good if you cannot do any damage in a game where you don't win unless your opponent dies.

[mortal pawn]

All the damage in the world does no good if you cant get the hit off for whatever reason.

I believe good balance requires you to make those choices. It shouldnt be an obvious decision. Arent you the spearhead of that spec problem movement 😂

[plush badger]

I'm a something head

[azure python]

A good chunk of mirrors done, will return to more tomorrow all

Good night ❤️

[thin hearth]

Night❤️

[faint estuary]

Seems pretty conclusive. Can we beta test this now? And can we poll doing the same to other skills? (With blood ray being the most problematic)

[past cobalt]

Why would we jump from target nerfing ss3 to removing all fixed miss/guaranteed hit from skills 😂

[mortal pawn]

Workin on it

[faint estuary]

1- Blood ray is as problematic as SS. Similar turn 1 damage, never misses and bypasses pet protect. It’s a completely unbalanced skill

2- Chakram and RS2 are both physical skills when it comes to resistances. That means they are much more punishing for classes that run BoF, so realm will still be useless if we only change SS

[clever kindle]

Bloodray just needs damage reduction in PvP similar to apex

[faint estuary]

If that’s the route we want to take sure, but it needs to be a massive reduction, the damage output is insanely high

[past cobalt]

I would not say it's as problematic - SS builds are tanky, bloodray is fragile. I agree the damage should be nerfed.

The second point is not really a chakram/rs2/fixed miss problem at all, it's just the risk you take using BoF. Plus, realm is only "required" to run BoF because ss3 is still dominant and can't be dodged

[thin hearth]

Has anybody tested SS damage on Deity/BeoH yet? Wanna know how much they got nerfed

[plush badger]

Just as an aside, it's a grand oversimplification to call SS builds tanky and doesn't do the whole problem with ward overinflation justice to equate ward to tankiness. It's just a massive hit point pool with it's own rules

[thin hearth]

So 25% reduced for every class other than Gilgamesh?
-# might be getting it wrong sorry

[jagged delta]

Yes, that's how I understand it

[thin hearth]

Okay thanks

[jagged delta]

In fact even more than 25%, as your opponent has def

In terms of total damage

[thin hearth]

Well I did encounter this at some point

Only al16 so it's probably not the best person to test with

[simple kraken]

What class, beo?

[simple kraken]

we were 160/170 live / 145 beta when we tested yesterday with very similar builds. BeoH for reference

[past cobalt]

"a massive hit point pool" is kinda the issue here - it certainly isn't fragile!

[radiant stratus]

Massive hit point pool is the best defense in the game. And it’s not weak stats either

[radiant stratus]

Idk man. I remember dorado being pretty nasty without fixed miss. Fixed miss is not a problem. Realm can go tanky too.

I do think blood ray is a lot of damage. But so is the investment if you want that damage. It is basically…swash…no one has a problem with that. Can’t be used on defense either. And can only be used once.

[faint estuary]

Swash can’t bypass pet protect and have a guaranteed hit, it still needs to handle those. Blood ray is just an instant win on attack

[crisp oxide]

I think anything that fixed miss accomplishes is better done by varying accuracy bonuses on skills

[faint estuary]

Dorado can go tank but then it lacks the tools to kill anything. And going tank only handles Chakram and RS2, blood ray pretty much ignores resistance

[radiant stratus]

Yeah. I know it’s strong. Just not at serious offense yet. Heretic never had any high power damage on first turn. And drawbacks are good enough. And realm is bypassing pet protect with 2-4 turns per turn. In the end, I think it’s actually quite even with swash

Also no second chance and will have vulnerability to status effects. So let it play out

[faint estuary]

This is a 90AL heretic vs a 170 GUrsa gearing for resistance. This is as seriously offensive as it gets imo.

[radiant stratus]

Why he geared for resistance? lol. Shouldn’t he be Max hp?

[faint estuary]

If I gear towards defense, no one can hit me for 400k turn one with SS3. I don’t have the option to build against that here

[faint estuary]

Maxing hp wouldn’t get me through a 400k hit

It’s just a proof of concept to show you can’t build resistances against it

[past cobalt]

As we've already mentioned, this is a damage issue, not a guaranteed hit issue

[kindred yoke]

if the flask gets through a smaller brick wall with ease, it can surely get through a taller, thinner wall (more hp, less res). it's dealing way too much damage

[faint estuary]

And note that it’s on a 80AL disadvantage. On equal footing there’s no way to counterplay this

[faint estuary]

It’s both imo

[past cobalt]

Your video is just damage

[faint estuary]

I get that heretics finally got a cool tool to play with, but there’s no world where I’ll agree this isn’t absurdly overtuned

[past cobalt]

Literally nobody is saying it's not overtuned, you're arguing against nobody

[radiant stratus]

Overtuned, prolly. Absurdly? Not even close.

[faint estuary]

Double pet protect amities and stonewarg. It was actually a couple minutes of repeat testing, but discord doesn’t let me upload it all

[crisp oxide]

I think the games in a better place when you have to squeeze dex in your build vs certain targets. Not needing to diversify is part of what gets us to an always full damage juice meta.

[faint estuary]

If patch notes came out saying “Gilga can’t miss with SS3 and will bypass pet block” this discord would go up in flames

[radiant stratus]

Just sneeze on that heretic. In your video, the Gilga ursa survived the hit. That was gg.

[kindred yoke]

so the only counter play is second chance, which nullifies any builds whatsoever you work to deal with it :p

[radiant stratus]

Yeah. Basically how I deal with everything. Problem is, we have to be careful reducing the damage. There are no other options for heretics. Haven’t been any for years now.

And…it’s good for endless and deep anguish. I don’t even PvP anymore

[faint estuary]

Chakram has been dominant for a long time. Scythe is pretty viable as well. Qc ultima is still good, especially since very few people still run resist amities

There’s a world where it can be adjusted for PvP only if it changes endless dramatically

[radiant stratus]

Chakram is just good against BoF. QC Ultima is a joke man.

But…tbh it is really important in endless. That’s why I didn’t want mana ray gone. I use them both in endless

[faint estuary]

A possible solution I suggested was making flasks unusable in the first 2 turns of pvp combat (akin to frenzy). That would mean the heretic would have access to it if it was able to survive long enough, but remove the turn 1 instant win condition

[radiant stratus]

Heretic? Survive? Nah.

[thin hearth]

I could agree with this... If the hera could even survive for 2 turns that is

[mortal pawn]

I posted a screenshot multiple times yesterday

7.5k defense BeoH 45 AL

[faint estuary]

I’m not a major fan of that screenshot tbh. It’s a super optimized setup and using dragon damage, which can be resisted with gear and by class abilities. Not saying the skill isn’t still overtuned on non gilga classes, have only been testing gilga for now, but that screenshot is probably not accurate to the reduction most players will see

[past cobalt]

Bordoadas, I understand you don't like fixed miss skills, but pointing to a flask designed to never miss and not be blocked by pets and complaining that it doesn't miss or get blocked is disingenuous

[thin hearth]

Those were sent at AM for me so makes sense why I didn't see them
-# was asleep by then

[faint estuary]

How so? I’m of the opinion that no skill should ever be able to not miss or get blocked altogether. I fundamentally disagree with the core design of the skill. The fact that it hits like a truck is just making it even more egregious

[prime vale]

At least it's corvus only which doesn't have SC, so it's a glass cannon suicide build that can't defend

[mortal pawn]

I cant help people if they arent using element damage for extra juice in pvp

[faint estuary]

How much damage does the same build do on live against the same opponent? I think that’d make it a better comparison

[past cobalt]

Yeah that's your opinion but it's not how the game or the skill is designed

[mortal pawn]

I want to kill player A - he has 120k hp/ward turn 1 and no drag immune. i need the element damage to kill him. Bam flat miss 145k give me element damage all day

[simple kraken]

percentage wise though, it was the same reduction AFAIK that a normal person would see.

[faint estuary]

Sure. But if NF wants the skill to continue being undodgeable, it needs to at least not be a turn 1 nuke

[mortal pawn]

I wish i had the same ALs on live as beta. My beta is set up with ALs spread to test other classes

[past cobalt]

As we've been saying the whole time, yes nerf the pvp damage

It's already been brought up in the heretic threads

[simple kraken]

AL45 BeoH
144k live
116k beta (cant swap pets yet kek)
For reference, same build ish as S2's

[prime vale]

I'm ok with fixed hitrate only if they come with a downside such as chakrams or RS having an extremely low M1 value. Unlike SS3 that has the full package

[faint estuary]

Have you tested the new SS3? The M1 was fairly lowered

[faint estuary]

I think people need to be clear about numbers when talking about this. If it’s to stay undodgeable, the numbers need a drastic reduction. I’m fine with it being pvp only, but the nuke aspect of it has to go if the rest is to stay

[crisp oxide]

I think anytime a move is very high damage its problematic when it has FMC. I mean no one's complaining about perfect shot. Would mages really be happy if it was lowered enough that it wasn't consistently a 1hit or would they prefer something that was a consistent 1 hit but hit 80% of the time instead of 100? People are trying to jump through hoops to say why their FMC 1shot is different than SS, but I'm sure they all feel the same to a RS.

[faint estuary]

How much defense? Amities are different btw

[prime vale]

Unfortunately haven't yet, still RS2 and chakrams have M1 1 so it's not really going to match the situation. Before May patch when they swapped M1 between ss1 and SS3 (someone said SS3 m1 went even higher) I could definitely mitigate a lot even SS3 and zero chakrams from people in my Al range

[clever kindle]

I’d go 40% damage nerf in PvP, same as apex, heretics would have more informed opinions though

[grave siren]

How about nerfing starting flasks for pvp?

[faint estuary]

Honestly? That might be too low for the numbers I’m seeing in testing it. It will still be a guaranteed one shot in most scenarios

[past cobalt]

Just because an RS feels they are the same does not make them the same. Bloodray requires flask power gear that is not defensive and makes them fragile in both def and ward; it already does not nuke without a lot of these pieces

[simple kraken]

Good catch, here's updated amities
5443 defense

[past cobalt]

It's great for glass cannon pvp offense, but it's unusable in pvp defense and if you get parapet'd /second chance'd, there's not really a second try. So it's currently too much damage, but not without drawbacks

[faint estuary]

I think the defense is probably too low in that scenario. At higher defense you should see much better damage mitigation

[simple kraken]

It's the best I had to get a good comparison

[faint estuary]

You get a second try against anyone running SS, since it will fully deplete their ward with the nuke and make them unable to damage you

[past cobalt]

Not against parapet but sure

[faint estuary]

And you still get to parapet them back, and get the added benefit of being able to pet block

[crisp oxide]

You may be surprised to learn many gilga run full bof to one shot nowadays which makes them easily one shottable even with larger ward pool

[past cobalt]

If we wanna argue about how to change this Heretic flask I welcome you to discuss it in the Heretic thread

[faint estuary]

We’re discussing fixed miss/guaranteed hit as a whole, this all came to when discussing removing fixed miss from SS

[past cobalt]

I understand how it started, my statement still stands

[faint estuary]

Heretic thread is discussing other changes important for the class, I’m not going to separate the conversation and derail the general topic but splitting it over 2 threads. A few solutions have been proposed for blood ray and SS, I think that’s what we should be discussing now, since everyone seems to agree they’re both problematic

[prime vale]

So what do you think if that flask receive the same "treatment" of the ara flask. It's high penetration, no miss and whatever only when full, otherwise you're substantially nerfed

[past cobalt]

Solutions to bloodray have already been discussed. In the heretic thread.

[faint estuary]

In that case I’m sure you’re able to share them here so people not looking to derail another class’ thread can continue this discussion

[past cobalt]

I'm not sure how talking about heretic changes in the heretic thread would be derailing the heretic thread. I also am under no obligation to bring the discussion from that thread here

If anything, I think the bloodray discussion has derailed this thread

[faint estuary]

The only proposed solution I can find in that thread is lowering the pvp m1. Nothing that hasn’t been mentioned here, but this thread has provided other alternative solutions as well, so it seems to have been at least more productive on the topic

[past cobalt]

I wouldn't call the other solutions proposed here productive

[faint estuary]

Off the top of my head, the proposed possible solutions for blood ray:

• significantly lower its damage in pvp
• remove guaranteed hit/pet block bypass
• make flasks unusable on turn 1, like other class specific abilities

[past cobalt]

Yeah those two other solutions are not reasonable

[faint estuary]

How so? The miss chance is literally what the community has been requesting for SS for ages

[crisp oxide]

IMO a big miss if SS loses fixed miss chance but nothing else does. One would enable dex builds for everyone while one just targets one problematic move.

I think along with this would make sense to look at how dex differential determines miss chance. Having it be a small flat value is problematic when AL scales small differentials. Would make sense to be more % based.

[faint estuary]

“Fixed miss is bad, but only if it’s not my skill”?

[past cobalt]

You realize Heretic has another flask that also can't miss or be blocked, right? Actually probably not since you don't play the class

[crisp oxide]

Its a bit silly that we have gilga players arguing for removal of fixed miss when they're arguable hurt more than classes that have more dex/dex access

[past cobalt]

The only difference between them is damage. Which is what we will nerf

[faint estuary]

I do, but it doesn’t hit for 800k turn 1. Also, if it already has one, why would it need another?

[faint estuary]

Then you end up with 2 similar flasks and no variability

[crisp oxide]

This is a similar issue to last patch spiked shield, I could do a million before it wasn't a nerf when they got it down to 800k, they had to knock it down to 200kish range

[minor urchin]

you may keep snarky comments like that to yourself, we don't really need those here

[past cobalt]

Does this qualify as snarky too then?

[faint estuary]

Just to make sure people don’t think I’m pulling numbers out of thin air, I’m not the one stating the 800k number

[past cobalt]

Yup, hence why I want to nerf the damage...

[faint estuary]

Halving 800k to 400k is still a one shot in 95% of scenarios

And nerfing the damage only works until another piece of gear that further boosts flask damage comes out

That’s literally the story of SS3’s life

[crisp oxide]

I've heard rumors of the 1.2m Ray that someone at my al would be capable of

[past cobalt]

You don't know the nuances of the skill or the class; it's just not that simple. This is a full glass cannon build that also has a m2 variance between 0.4 and 0.7

So you're looking at the top end of the range that can be almost halved already

This is also already extremely packed full of flask power

[faint estuary]

Ive extensively tested the skill with heretic players to make sure I know what I’m talking about. So keep comments about my knowledge to a minimum and let’s discuss solutions instead

You’ve proposed one and been adamantly against any other possibility. So I’m not sure progressing this conversation between us would be fruitful, unless you have any alternative solutions to present

[past cobalt]

I don't really feel like discussing solutions that involve redesigning the skill when it fulfills important purposes for the class outside of pvp

Or involve changing how all flasks work

There's reasons we settled on a pvp damage nerf in the Heretic thread

[past cobalt]

And contrary to this, we did discuss other options, but it's not hard to understand why they aren't great options

[faint estuary]

I don’t think the thread really “settled” on that. 2 or 3 people talked about it, but the thread was mostly focused on the other changes made to heretic (yes, I did read the entire thread). This thread has been much more extensive and had more community input on the topic

[past cobalt]

Well we don't have that many Heretics playing in general

[prime vale]

Guess heretics may benefit from the point of view of the victims of their perks as they're not many people then

[past cobalt]

Of course, but I don't see many proposed reasons why a damage nerf would not be sufficient (other than a dislike for fixed miss)

[prime vale]

So let's make it identical to manaflask

[clever kindle]

Might be in the minority here, but outside of PvP, I don’t really care what the other classes do

[radiant stratus]

You don’t think that nerfing the damage will ruin it for PvE? We run all PvE with very little magic because we would t be able to survive anyways.

Nah. I’m pretty set. For now, blood ray should stay as is.

[prime vale]

The only benefit is that you have 2 flasks for the purpose so you can alternate

[past cobalt]

It would be a pvp-only damage nerf, like Apex

[prime vale]

So if you mentioned it hitting 800k turn 1, how significant should it be to be balanced?

[past cobalt]

I assume you mean Manaray flask? Bloodray is Corvus's signature flask essentially, it is a "better" manaray. We were actually talking about swapping manaray out for anything else but haven't settled on anything

[past cobalt]

In the thread I recommended 50% m1 reduction in pvp, but that's my opinion. It's a fragile build so I'm of the opinion that building glass cannon should give high damage

[prime vale]

I feel it's just too much in one package, we have dursa strikes that never miss, can't be blocked, but it takes 2 turns, doesn't deal insane damage, can't crit so no further bonuses from prom hands and amity

There's also a side of bloodray flask that hasn't been considered, it comes with innate 25% crit chance like Ultima. Maybe decreasing that could do something in terms of build?

[past cobalt]

I don't think you need 5 pieces of gear dedicated to boosting strikes of ursa though

[prime vale]

I can pull an optimized bof 25k atk build and still it will be awful don't worry

[past cobalt]

I doubt any skill with 25k attack will be awful 😂

[plush badger]

25k attack Q.Q

[prime vale]

Let's say that with less base atk (14k) but full buff against starlord I couldn't hit over 5-600k if I'm not wrong

[plush badger]

In my most recent Ursa testing it works out to about the same DPT as a GS4 build in raiding, I keep trying to shoehorn it into PVP builds, maybe a 2 hand quickcast build pr something

[prime vale]

Quick video with "just 20.2k" as I'm too lazy to swap adorns for the purpose

[fallow sphinx]

Just jumping in to say that if fixed miss gets removed from all skills then doritos passive needs a rework because it's going to be cancer in pvp

[prime vale]

Freeze, stun, sleep, paralysis, blind makes it targetable as they all cancel Dex or reduce it significantly (blind with aaru that can't miss)

[mortal pawn]

That is 0% true btw

Just gonna call it as it is

[faint estuary]

Dex gearing has come such a long way, people just don’t build into it since it’s useless in a fixed miss chance world

[fallow sphinx]

Those are all easy to get immunities via gear

[mortal pawn]

Fixed miss is completely unstoppable.

Dex difference is

[faint estuary]

So the realm is supposed to build all of those and still have a competent build to do damage and build his dex up?

[prime vale]

Meanwhile flipping a pancake

[simple kraken]

This is realm's life since day one

[faint estuary]

Trust me, I mained realm for 4 years, through the years where it was absolutely useless. It’s the class archetype I love the most by far. I felt forced to HoC away from it because fixed miss made it literally unplayable to anyone that enjoys PvP

[fallow sphinx]

Freeze, paralyze and stun can be immunes with accessories. Blind is hard to apply because you need to land a skill that can be dodged

[faint estuary]

Sands of aaru is a guaranteed hit skill

[fallow sphinx]

You have to hit with it first. Then it's a guaranteed blind. If landing a hit is an issue that's not the solution

[faint estuary]

Sands of aaru works like blood ray. Can’t be dodged, can’t be blocked

[stable harness]

No, it's reduction for EVERY class INCLUDING gilga

[fallow sphinx]

If fixed hit gets removed I'm abusing realm until it gets nerfed for pvp because it's going to be incredibly unfun to fight

[past cobalt]

Here's my question to all RS mains about this. I understand the class is in a rough spot with the current meta in more ways than one; but if there was no fixed miss or guaranteed hit skills, what would stop you from maximizing dex with the easily accessible gear and out-dexing others essentially by default?

If the answer is basically "accuracy augments/effects", then not that much really changes except more people will slot in +accuracy effects, no? How does that help the RS class

[prime vale]

Cause you can't max in a meta where people recognise the impact of maluses and we're forced into immunity builds

Still without being able to fully cover all of them while maintaining a significant damage

[fallow sphinx]

Not to mention you are giving up a whole bunch of damage to get accuracy stuff, so all of a sudden you're risking not killing in one hit which is almost always a loss

[static wedge]

I don't understand the dex endgame too deeply, but I've been trying to run V4 in PvP because I was tired of SS3. BeoH trying to do that are more or less restricted to arisen rift gear and tons of turul feathers, would that not be how essentially everyone would be restricted without flat miss skills?

[prime vale]

Aaru sands can't miss, it's guaranteed shot, blind insanely reduces Dex and increase your survivability as an Rs could miss, so we'd be forced into always carrying fey eye or Hel gear ( non optimal for 2h bof damage)

So it's a problem if you can't Min max your gear for damage cause you've to bring accuracy, but it's fine to tell an rs that we can use immunity gear without considering the loss of efficiency

[fallow sphinx]

So you have to waste a turn to maybe blind them, if they don't have immunity. Which has multiple good ways to gear for. Not a great strategy

[crisp oxide]

I think removal of fixed miss chance would necessarily introduce skills with accuracy bonuses, including those losing fmc. They just don't need to be 100/95/90% when someone is out dexing you

[fallow sphinx]

Realm is already one of the best offensive pvp classes with extra turn stuff

[prime vale]

30% avidity comes with either 20 bristles, or 10 monocerus essences, bristles reduce attack monocerus don't add anything useful, still it's either 20 slots for a 30% chance

[fallow sphinx]

Yep that's a lot for how powerful it is

[prime vale]

And yet your complaint is about not being able to maximise damage cause of accuracy gear (riftrogue has insane stats overall but ok)

[fallow sphinx]

You have to maximize damage at my al because HP and defenses start to out scale damage.

[past cobalt]

I wouldn't say it's "not okay to have to bring accuracy", but in order to keep accuracy/fixed miss/guaranteed hit from invalidating RS (by this logic), you'd have to remove all of it. A new augment just came out this month giving 10% accuracy, it would not require that much sacrifice to slot in 3 of these and turn every skill into Chakram

[prime vale]

Not a problem against an rs as we don't have high hp and def, you're covered don't worry

[fallow sphinx]

HP gear like pumpkinless scales very well in pvp.

[past cobalt]

The idea that fixed miss/accuracy stuff invalidates RS, therefore we must remove it means deleting a huge amount of items at this point

[prime vale]

Fixed miss is a problem cause it doesn't requires any investment, accuracy does

[faint estuary]

I’d love another NF blog post analyzing class performance. I people really don’t understand just how dire the PvP scene is for realm. Realm having a 20% chance to act again is so outpaced by over half the classes having a 50% chance to survive a kill shot. Avidity is much more of a PvE thing than a PvP one. 30% cap is just too unreliable

[past cobalt]

No gear investment in theory, but the skills (should) have drawbacks

[fallow sphinx]

I wouldn't use chakram if it wasn't for realm existing

I'm fine with ss losing it

[faint estuary]

If you’re running pumpkinless, Chakram and RS2 just blow you up, no matter how much hp you can get.

[past cobalt]

I am very hopeful that ss losing fixed miss means RS isn't pigeonholed into bof

[faint estuary]

The fact that Chakram deal physical damage is also an issue, since it further punishes BoF users. In a vacuum, that makes perfect sense against the BoF meta. But for realm specifically, it just furthers the issue

[faint estuary]

The issue is damage. If you’re running base or Corvus, any slight breeze kills you. If you’re running Dorado, BoF is mandatory in the one shot meta

Oracle doesn’t cut it

[static wedge]

Back in the day when I was grinding BoF in the dumpster tier t10 bracket, a realm that had any idea of what they were doing instantly erased me if they hit avidity at first chance. I don't know what it looks like now but I can see plainly that it's going to be hard for some people to see past performance vs current conditions because it was an intensely negative experience when you lost to avidity.

[past cobalt]

The one shot meta is primarily perpetuated by ss3 though

[faint estuary]

And by any other fixed miss/guaranteed hit skill that one shots

Just changing SS just moves the problem to another skill

[fallow sphinx]

Vs a well geared realmy who has parapet and and stone dog I should win around 70% of the time on offense, and they should win 70% on offense. Feels fair to me

[past cobalt]

Bloodray is the only one comparable, and that should be dealt with this patch. Other skills, the answer is don't go bof since it's not really as vicious of a oneshot meta

[faint estuary]

I’m down to changing both SS and blood ray and seeing how the meta shakes up

[fallow sphinx]

Actually with extra turn shenanigans a good realmy is probably winning 90% on offense vs me

[past cobalt]

I think that's the best course of action here - take it one step at a time. Nerf the outliers and see what happens

[near kindle]

True for base and Corvus, yeah. Their PvP performance is in the lower bucket

Dorado is current #1 for offense, #2 for defense. But Dorado’s got more in the kit for PvP

[fallow sphinx]

Well well well

[radiant stratus]

It will be. Not so much cause of dodging (they resist status effects the higher their dex goes), but more so because other classes can’t invest in dex the same way.

[faint estuary]

What’s the metric used here? Settlement fights? Arena? Kingdom wars? Trying to figure out the context since it doesn’t match my experience at all, though I’ll admit that may be skewed by higher level matchups

[plush badger]

I was realm before High Tenacity, so I can understand.

[radiant stratus]

As usual….i think one thing at a time. Too many changes will be very unstable.

[near kindle]

This is vanilla PvAI data

[past cobalt]

Is that just kingdom wars?

[faint estuary]

Is performance similar at all AL brackets?

[near kindle]

War defense it is #3

Settlement defense #4

[radiant stratus]

That’s good info

[plush badger]

I always felt like Dorado was the Realm version to give the class pvp validity outside offense

[past cobalt]

We can also keep in mind that bloodray's power isn't exactly well-known or widespread yet

[radiant stratus]

Can we see other examples? Just so people have a perspective. I know I need one for other classes

[faint estuary]

So it’s the perfect time to change it, right? Won’t cause as much outcry, and we prevent a new SS3 situation

[faint estuary]

Appreciate the additional info. My experience is that more knowledgeable/experienced players (who should trend towards higher AL) will know to use fixed miss chance skills against Dorado, but that’s purely anecdotal

[near kindle]

iirc Dorado doesn’t have a big low-AL scene

[past cobalt]

Yeah I wouldn't want bloodray to become a widespread problem. But I also don't want to gut its potential completely

[near kindle]

oh, against, nm

[past cobalt]

I think bloodray can serve a glass cannon nuke purpose

[faint estuary]

Realms glass cannon skill does less damage and misses 10% of the time. I’m not against heretic having a nuke, but the numbers are clearly off right now, and it’s compounded by it being undodgeable

[mortal pawn]

I almost won a pvp tourney as a 13 AL BeoH, no flat miss ss3 stuff, against a 140 AL Deity. Accuracy wasnt a problem. That was before all of these new dex options 2-3yrs ago.

Really tired of these Dex / Realm OP arguments

[past cobalt]

I mean you can make it miss 1% of the time instead, but yeah I get the idea. At the very least RSD gets more ward, HP, and warrior gear

Our gear is also dedicated to boosting the nuke's damage with no real flexibility

[radiant stratus]

I don’t get the issue. That doesn’t sound bad at all. 90% to hit. And less damage, but prolly not by much. I don’t feel that that should be the way to compare.

[mortal pawn]

Id like to add context that the current high AL dorado meta is SS3 btw

[radiant stratus]

You just a different animal. That’s not fair. You winning that only means prolly no one else can lol

[faint estuary]

Not by much? Phil was claiming 800k turn 1. RS2 will have a hard time cracking 200-300k against most people

[mortal pawn]

Sorry that wasnt meant to be a brag literally just like can we stop this dex boogeyman bs 😂

[radiant stratus]

I want to see a 800k first turn.

[faint estuary]

And it deals with a miserable M1, while blood ray has one the highest in the game

[past cobalt]

Reminder that 800k top end is against people without a lot of res and could have been like 450k by sheer m2 variance

[radiant stratus]

I don’t think it’s possible to get 800k. I’m maxing out at 400k against AL0. And get as low as 240ish

[faint estuary]

450k being the lowest variance is still a 50% increase vs RS2. Resistance doesn’t factor much into it with the M1 it boosts. I got hit pretty consistently for 400k while sporting a high resistance build against a heretic with less 80ALs

[past cobalt]

Right, so after a pvp damage adjustment, it will be a lot more in line

[faint estuary]

Sure. I just don’t see a world where blood ray should be allowed to leave the beta unchanged, be that via damage adjustment, miss chance, etc. I’m down to toning down PvP damage significantly and seeing how things shake up

[mortal pawn]

Does anyone know the exact M1 and M2 of Bloodray ? (Odie cough)
If it's glaringly obvious how much higher than alternatives it is then there really isnt an argument to be had.
Numbers never lie

[past cobalt]

6, 0.4-0.7

[radiant stratus]

Again…that’s just a heretic deals more damage. I know m1 is low, but attack is ridiculously high. And in a true glass cannon build, it will be comparable.

People are talking about a 40% damage reduction is not enough. How is that fair when heretic is the “other offensive class”? I get an adjustment, all I’m saying is that we’re gonna go overboard again, and it’ll be an issue. Sacrifices are exactly the same, but we’re trading m1 and the extra accuracy for not being able to use it on defense and only having one cartridge. Seems to me it only needs small adjustments.

I’d love to see it in beta

[plush badger]

m1 is a low 6?

[radiant stratus]

Both in a heavy glass cannon build, with no second chance and no SF

[radiant stratus]

I’ve heard there are defenses that work. BUT the guy that told me is not available. I really want that info. Just prolly not on turn 1 (I’d assume)

[faint estuary]

RS2 has to deal with miss chance, pet protect and a M1 of 1. These 2 things are not the same, not matter how much people try to paint it like that

[radiant stratus]

Ok. Fair. Still I think it’s close enough to be comparable. Not a huge gap. Yes. Currently blood ray is better. I’m just saying they’re in the same neighborhood on true glass cannon builds

Unlike ss3 that had the same firepower, but on a 150k hp build with 400k ward

[past cobalt]

Ran some arena, this is about my top end with a pretty maximized build. I've gone over 800k before but maybe not with comparable AL? Not sure. Maybe using Darkrift Robe

[faint estuary]

They’re not even in the same state. RS2 is very very easy to zero out/significantly lower, even against glass cannon builds

[acoustic river]

How is an m1 of 6 and an m1 of 1 comparable at all?

[radiant stratus]

I stand corrected. Is that a 95 crit build?

[past cobalt]

Bloodray has innate 25% crit chance (so 75% in stats)

[radiant stratus]

☠️and look at me setting my builds to 95. Whoops?

[past cobalt]

And btw not that this helps the RS side, but this is gonna happen pretty frequently against classes with second chance

[radiant stratus]

I stand by what I say. Gotta be careful with this one. On this crazy meta, it is the only thing that has worked.

And yeah. SC is 50% on turn 1 (correct me if I’m wrong)? It’s a one shot meta. Only realm has the issue of an auto loss. But so does heretic against almost all realms

[faint estuary]

Don’t forget that any ward skill using class also won’t be able to clap back since they’ll be left at 0 ward if they proc SC

[past cobalt]

I still think gilga should rely on more than just ss3, and maybe they will have to without fixed miss. Give gilga 2.5x crit multiplier

[faint estuary]

That’s a proposed solution for Ursa

[mortal pawn]

This is bonkers for anything usable turn 1 flat miss for sure. Without flat miss id argue thats not much different than rend/epee, which is usable on every turn (but spec restricted)

[radiant stratus]

Gear too.

[past cobalt]

Keep in mind - that's a full flask. The m1 is at 50% with 50% charge turn 1 I believe

[mortal pawn]

Right. I wouldnt even mind 'increased accuracy' similar to what we are trying to get to sub ss3 flat miss for gilga. But flat miss on that is absurd

[past cobalt]

So now we're talking about m1 of 3 turn 1, which I propose be halved in pvp

[mortal pawn]

Without flat miss its just a rend epee usable once

[plush badger]

I know the SS trauma runs deep atm, but there's no problem with Gilga being good and effective with SS imo. The biggest problem has been that everyone and their brother has been good with it and everyone who hasn't has been left off the train. The haves and the have nots.

[faint estuary]

Can you hit for 750k with rend epee though? 😅

[past cobalt]

And requires 5 pieces of gear etc

[mortal pawn]

Hold my beer

[past cobalt]

In that screenshot I'm running a 7.6x multiplier on bloodray's m1, plus at least a 2.74x crit multiplier (not counting heretic's naturally increased crit boost)

Literally every piece of gear is to boost bloodray (accessories are arisen rings)

[faint estuary]

Thing is, you can lower the damage output and still oneshot 99% of players

So any damage reduction would have to be significant to justify keeping the guaranteed hit portion of the skill

[past cobalt]

My defense stat is 67

[faint estuary]

What amity are you running?

[past cobalt]

Just 2x crit damage. I could be running crit/parapet but it has a malus I'd have to work around more, or crit +max hp or something

[mortal pawn]

Yeah its really just all the flask boosting stuff that makes bloodray so much higher

[faint estuary]

So a crit + manaflask amity would boost that even further. At the same time, you could run crit + parapet or pet block and significantly boost survivability in case of SC proccing

[past cobalt]

Yup that's all true. But anyone can do that

[faint estuary]

About that beer… I kinda drank it

[mortal pawn]

My question is - who cares if it can one shot 500% of your hp pool if you have to dedicate your entire build to it - only for them to use it once and miss. Because we all know building all the multipliers sacrifices a ton of dex.

This is assuming we remove flat miss from blood ray

[faint estuary]

No, we can’t pet protect against blood ray 😅

Coral + pet protect would immediately get you an extra 19%

[mortal pawn]

Because there are plenty of other skills that can one shot you for 100% of your hp pool

[past cobalt]

Bloodray should not lose its guaranteed hit, it's kind of the point of the skill

[faint estuary]

Then the damage needs to go down to the point it isn’t a consistent one shot

[mortal pawn]

Then in order to balance it, should hit for less than 100% of a normal players hp pool imp

Resulting in a difficult balancing game with all the multipliers available

[past cobalt]

M2 already has that inconsistency built in, and there's parapet/second chance/high res/hp

[faint estuary]

As soon as a public server finds a crit + manaflask amity the numbers immediately jump another level. That’s the issue with just adjusting damage, it’s subject to power creep from new gear, events etc

[kindred yoke]

leaving a turn 1 unmissable nuke skill's fate to a coin flip isn't overly appealing imo

[past cobalt]

I get that. I don't have a great answer considering that this is the largest issue with ss3, but in contrast bloodray has strict build requirements and leaves you fragile

Reducing the m1 makes stacking res more viable as well

[icy cloak]

And isn’t spammable and can’t be used by AI on defense so yes you can take a territory (maybe) but you aren’t holding it no way no how

[prime vale]

Corvus wouldn't hold a territory even if it could use that flask in defense

[past cobalt]

For the record, it can use the flask on defense - but it won't unless it's fully charged

[icy cloak]

Heh so

It can’t use it xD

[kindred yoke]

deviating a bit from the current topic to follow up on this, and maybe more towards Odie:

not sure if still doable for the current H2 iteration, but would it be possible to do something like it was done ages ago with the stats/graphs to showcase the popularity and performance outliers among pve/pvp (or even add anguish guilds/settlements to the mix)?

I believe it could be a lot of work and could mess with schedules and priorities over the roadmap - but just in case it was possible. I think the 2023 iteration was a pretty solid blog post that allowed to form opinions on a lot of things (this being the blog post), and with all the new content and adjustments since then it could bring a new perspective of how things evolved

[stable harness]

Relevant to the above, I'd also be curious for things like the polls and everything else... What % of people are using what class? Gilga's have traditionally not been very vocal, is some of that based on the players? or is there a factor of not many around?

It's fine for people to state their opinion, but when the same opinion is reiterated roughly 5 times an hour, it may bury any thoughts from others. In my opinion the whole topic of "Flat miss Chance" should be an entirely separate thread, cause frankly anything else stated here is just buried with endless back and forth on that one topic.

[stiff hollow]

sorry guys gotta write this because i think the last 12+ hours of discussions are just absurd. It's incredible to focus this much on PvP in the balance patch as you are doing here. Far less than 1% of the player base has PvP V PvE in the way they spend time in the game, and the vasy majority AT MOST has PvP as a tiny marginal detail extra, which if fully removed wouldn't change their gameplay much. I literally never had anyone in my kingdom , nor ever talked with anyone, who was in the game mainly for PvP (HoA, but the patch is the same for both games so). Even people who care fairly a lot about conqueror build dedicate far less than 50% of their total gametime play to it. So this is all to say that obsessing exclusively over PvP effects of changes is wrong, except if it's PvP-explicit changes (like Gursa not countering anymore which i think was absolutely necessary). SS being nerfed for all classes OBVIOUSLY is more relevant for high agony raiding than for PvP! high agony bottlenecks builds a lot, SS3 dodges most / all maluses, so it's viability is VERY RELEVANT and losing it matters. Might have been necessary (or not) but that should be discussed a lot more than PvP! Same for literally all other changes imho

[mortal pawn]

The problem with this data ( as a data nerd myself and would love to see more of it) is that people will latch onto anything to fit their narrative. A lot of the data doesnt have enough context for it to be fair to share.
For example - a large portion of the RealmDs are high AL, and using SS3, which could account for their high performance currently.

[mortal pawn]

Just because you dont like pvp doesnt mean others dont.

[crisp oxide]

I do think the separate thread is a good idea

[mortal pawn]

We can do that in the future

[stiff hollow]

class performance data as published in the past is useless because the by far most important stat was never published. Which is time efficiency GIVEN AL (and now given AL / anguish level / shackles). That's literally what defines balance, above everything else. To do X (and so to collect Y resources) how much time does it need? the lower, the stronger. Nothing else matters (for balance), literally, definitionally. But that data can't be get server side. Because you never know who is hard trying or not. You don't know where non-hard trying people gravitate to. You would need people hard trying their class / AL / build as much as possible and then compare. That's what balance is about. And that's why NF side data is mostly useless to judge that

[near kindle]

Please keep in mind that this is the Orna server, where PvP is much more prevalent

I understand it’s not a priority for HoA players, but you’re in the Orna space right now

[stiff hollow]

i am 30th in conq guild in HoA (and haven't played it since august). So i was once close to top 10. I am saying even the people most dedicated to PvP still do far less PvP than PvE, so EVEN FOR THEM PvE is much more relevant, then there is everyone else

[stiff hollow]

i understand this but i don't get why , especially because of reactions like those we saw, we can't just keep going with what already happened for a lot of stuff which is to just wire it differently for PvP specifically.

[near kindle]

I didn’t say we couldn’t - I’m only commenting on your suggestion that it is absurd to spend time on PvP. I’m not sure you are aware of the PvP landscape in Orna

[plush badger]

I remember how difficult GS was to deal with before the battalions nerf (and other nerfs). It was craaaazy upon launch

[stiff hollow]

it's absurd to spend 80%+++ of the general patch discussion on PvP (imho). I just said that because it went on for like a day in the general thread. Others mentioned doing a PvP general discussion for the beta which sounds reasonable, not my call though

[near kindle]

It’s really not absurd. We’re literally taking over the world here, settlement by settlement

[plush badger]

Speaking of which, I really miss the old summary screen that showed how many local 'terriories' newar you were unclaimed and how many local dukes etc 🥲

[prime vale]

We have T9 people in the top 10 conqueror guild, so I'd say PvP is relevant in Orna

[mortal pawn]

PVP is great because it illuminates glaring balance issues that can also transcend to PVE that may not otherwise be as obvious

[crisp oxide]

PvP is great because you can crush your enemies and hear the lamentations of their women

[stiff hollow]

i don't know man i am a GS i never did anything other than 1 clicking BP for 2 years, and i never had any chance to build anything defensive at all so i never even tried. I just one click and autowin 99%+ of the times except vs gursa counter which is being removed (summons kill the second chance). Doesn't seem a very strategic gamespace to me.

[prime vale]

If you had to drive to a territory/settlement you'd consider having a strategy to defend instead of just nuke and come back to take it again

[sterile topaz]

Yeah, I later realised it was a different state of balance that I was trying to refer to, from mid 2025 and with some raid stats, mb

[stiff hollow]

there is none for GS at all at same or close AL, also you can't defend in a game where if you change builds your pvp builds changes , and i play all content with different builds (often different classes where i have far fewer ALs)

[sterile topaz]

How do you lose against the G.Ursa CA, if pacts can't proc it?

[near kindle]

It really might be more productive to let the Orna folks speak about PvP in Orna, my friend

[prime vale]

I don't know how HoA works but that's why this is a Orna server and thread

[stiff hollow]

ok but i think the "if i change spec / class / pet the pvp build in defense changes" problem is the same in Orna? i don't even understand the concept of building defense unless i can guarantee a specific class / spec / pet will be the defense 100%

[prime vale]

If I change spec, pet and whatever I can have different results for sure. Unfortunately or luckily there's not such a thing as the definitive build that anyone can't beat, but you can create different working strategies that allows you to hold your territories or increase the chances of losing a lower amount of them as it's people travelling on the highway maybe so they can't take too long for a single fight or if you know the player against you then you can have specific builds for that class/build and AL

[sterile topaz]

Yeah, that's the same, and mb, meant to reply to your other message up there

[plush badger]

I think the whole build changing thing is part of the beauty. You get to choose. Do you want to farm PVE? Well alright but the trad eoff is you might not be at your optimal for defending your settlements while you do that.

[stiff hollow]

eys sorry for the gursa counter i was thinking of when i did ss3 build for a while because i wanted to try if it worked (it did with old selene hands) on GS

[stiff hollow]

so you think a mechanic that makes you not play the game in all it's other aspects to optimize it is good? i strongly disagree

[sterile topaz]

Ah yeah, that makes sense then

[plush badger]

Well, you are perfectly free to disagree, but having your cake and eating it too are not premises I agree with when it comes to Orna.

[stiff hollow]

i think for any game, it's inherently bad to discourage playing more, strictly. If there is something you achieve better by not playing the game, then that's something that has to be fixed

"i won't farm mnemonics this hour because Max is taking my territories" is simply not a strategy that should ever benefit you

[plush badger]

Personally, I think it's far better to encourage a healthy level of play and player choice having meaning.

I don't mean to devalue you your own opinion. Just stating that I do not share it

[stiff hollow]

you will have much much much wider choices if you were allowed to build defense: including putting ALs specifically only to a classline for PvP defense

also spending a pet there (which is how OS work)

[prime vale]

I can do PvP, raids, towers , dungeons without bothering about changing class or spec. It seems more like your problem

If I want to go for an endless run to farm orn I'm changing class and spec, but tbh I couldn't care about losing in PvP while focused on that 😂

[plush badger]

Exactly what I mean by player choice

[near kindle]

The biggest difference between the two games is the landscape of opponents

Your Aethric opponents are typically optimized for turnover, as Aethric has limited settlements

Orna optimizes for defense tenfold

Players in Aethric arent waking up in the middle of the night to stop a drive by on their highway domes

[stiff hollow]

more reasons to make defense something you can fix like an OS

because even is ashketa wrote that, i literally don't believe he raids with the same spec and pet and does pvp and dungeons with. And it's not a "me problem". it's just you either play super suboptimally one content, or the other, or just don't play a content at all to allow for defese, or disregard defense. Which is a tradeoff that implies you can often be better off not playing, and i don't understand how that is healthy at all

[mortal pawn]

Complains whole thread is about PvP

Gets into heated discussion about PvP

💅

[stiff hollow]

because the defense setting thing as being a major thing for 2+ years and this is a balance patch so after the creator of the game tells me PvP is actually super important, i bring up the only change i think is needed in that content

[near kindle]

In this example, they’re changing their build to counter their opponent, likely recognizing the sprite

You don’t want fixed defense here, you want a build that you can change as fast as possible

[prime vale]

I play Dorado blade of finesse with stonewarg for everything I've mentioned

Ang 24 dungeons, ang 16 for towers and raids

[stiff hollow]

sorry odie but i don't understand . Fixed defense would still be changeable quickly if you are in the game. Point is you can't keep defense "good" if you are doing other stuff in many/most cases

people should just have the ability to fix defense PvP like they set OS, but also class / spec , and that stays until they change it regardless of which content they actively are playing ; with sets to quickly change to completly different builds

[plush badger]

Any type of game where I can be in the optimal build for whatever I want to do while ignoring any other sort of thing that may be going on is not something I am interested in. If I care enough about settlements to try and defend, I should prioritize that, not jacking up my ascension levels.

[prime vale]

Before the 2hands weapon aoe patch I even used the same build for everything, just avidity/Bof passive for hordes with my 2h cele bow

[near kindle]

Sure, that’s fair. As long as either is equally accessible and quick to change.

It may be just an additional management layer for some

[stiff hollow]

just think memory hunting, everytime you do that with the pet and everything, your defense is handicapped. Especially if you swap to beo to do that

or i mean all the guild specs, like monumental , great oracle and so on. Why should using them weaken your defense

[plush badger]

Because your choices should have impact. If I am choosing to do memories, am I in a raiding build, should I be as strong at raiding? Of course that sounds ludicrous on the surface because you don't raid and do memories at the same time. Well I hold the same view as to pvp. you should be able to do pvp and memories at the same time as effectively as you could do onw or the other.

[prime vale]

In Italy we say that if you can't handle wine then just eat the grapes. If you can't tolerate losing territories while enjoying other content, then just don't take part in PvP or accept you'll do the other content not at the optimal condition for it.

[crisp oxide]

Orna PVP is not about guaranteeing 100% winrate IMO, its about optimizing your 'outs' to either get high a winrate as possible or to slowdown your opponents

[stiff hollow]

i am italian and i never heard that saying. I am saying that creating an artificial tradeoff between playing actively and optimizing defense is a mistake as a game should never punish activity

[mortal pawn]

Except when that activity influences ascension levels that somehow impact PvP

[prime vale]

If we want to make PvP defense better I'd like to have the possibility to decide the abilities I want for the first 2 turns( if I get to a second turn)

Sometimes even with just one skill equipped I hit with the normal attack while defending which is annoying

[stiff hollow]

yes defense AI could gain from more options the player can set, as well as having log replays accessible would allow people to strategize better

still being able to set a defense build come first and above that

[soft oxide]

Log replays would not be possible in game I think, its already slow with enough things in your inventory

[granite robin]

I have seen this in bof guild...

[icy cloak]

Unless you gave someone enough turns to buff up and get iconoclast online and have a fully charged Bloodray (your fault), there is no way an AL0 Bloodray is hitting for 1.2m

Bloodray is an issue because of flask power scaling shoving what was a finisher tool in PvP into a one shot tool not because it is some broken ability on its own or at 0AL

0AL without flask power can maybe crack 120-150k on turn 2 with a full flask Bloodray

0AL with flask power gets that up to around 230k depending on the opponent and assuming they are also AL0 which is around the same amount of damage a full hybrid SS3 or HS3 will hit them back for

[granite robin]

Ive seen dmg variance of 400-600k in bof before i even get turns to act. Thanks to flasks giving extra turns

[past cobalt]

Bof flask skip is a whole different beast than bloodray t1 nonlive pvp

[granite robin]

But i did see one guy doing 1m dmg with bloodray in bof..

Idk how he did that. But i know what i saw.

Maybe my nerfed defence helps thst on my ss 3 build, but still its quite high dmg in live pvp

[granite robin]

That just makes the problem bigger.

[past cobalt]

It's a different problem. And the only way I could think of to charge and use a flask before the enemy even gets a turn is like... Delay strike from sphinx follower on turn 1

[granite robin]

And this comes from beoA perspective. I do not have any way to beat corvus in bof.

[past cobalt]

Otherwise, this didn't happen

[granite robin]

Flask> metro> oneshot bc you used 3 turns so rules dont matter anymore

[past cobalt]

Flasks don't give extra turns if they're not full

You'd also need to take 4 extra turns to break the rules if your opponents took 0 turns

[granite robin]

Idk what he did. But every heretic in bof seems to oneshot me before my first turn

[past cobalt]

As I said, pretty sure the only way to get 0 turns against heretic is through sphinx kit follower rng lol

[granite robin]

Sometimes with paraphet i get a second chance but bc thats my 1 turn i cant kill my opponent

[past cobalt]

You're just forgetting you get 1 turn every time I guess

None of this matters to this thread so I'm gonna stop here

[granite robin]

@vocal thicket

[vocal thicket]

Hi

[granite robin]

How does heretics turn 1 work in bof ( in scenario where opponent does not get turns)

I know you have been testing stuff

[vocal thicket]

With hera at most the enemy would have 1 turn just after the charge up on t1, to allow a full flask for the added turn

With stormflask you get the combo built in, corvus (i haven’t tested newer charge rates) i would push the next enemy turn back 1 to allow the “same combo”

[icy cloak]

Yeah the only way to change the opponent getting a turn is to have a Sphinx Kit delay strike

The opponent always gets one turn otherwise. I have found people throw out a counterattack to stop me when they’re paying attention and not just clicking the same button over and over

[vocal thicket]

Also side note, enemy can still 1 tap you after passing the total turn count 4, turn 5 is always restriction free regardless of order

[icy cloak]

Though also this isn’t relevant to current beta 😅 and BoF has its own set of issues and top tier builds. I’d rank HAra turn skip #3 - maybe #2

[vocal thicket]

Id agree with that JUST because of para and SC

Its still 1 single hit

[past cobalt]

Base hera can do it with aligned sigilflask too, but not the ara nuke

[granite robin]

I mean ca was hard nerfed in pvp so currently it acts as second chance with more rng

[vocal thicket]

CA used to be a hard counter for my metronomus strategy too, but now it doesn’t phase me much

[granite robin]

Yea i used to counter metro with ca

Now i only use ca to meme in pve with summon block

[icy cloak]

Anyone rocking chronomancer in BoF deserves to win 😆 it is the coolest spec in the game and I am still frustrated stasis got nerfed in PvP due to PvE cheese

Buuuut hey beta patch?

[vocal thicket]

Dursa can also 2 tap people if they go second now with apex power existing, lots of new stuff happening

[granite robin]

But i belive the bloodray needs dmg/pen nerf in pvp

600k dmg without als is kinda crazy without buffs

[vocal thicket]

I love me some chronomancer ⏰

Finally got my Dursa off bof and onto a viable build for chrono, ive been happy

[icy cloak]

Bloodray needs a nerf in PvP, no arguments there.

600k is not with no ALs

I am of the mind that making it require a full flask would be the best solution to not shaft its use by low ALs/no flask power

Though I would also be fine with reducing Flask Power effectiveness for PvP. It was a concern I brought up as soon as we saw it on gear 😅

[granite robin]

Bof has no als...

[vocal thicket]

If the flasks themselves were slightly nerfed in pvp would that solve the issue in a roundabout way? Like apex being reduced
Im sure its been mentioned before

[granite robin]

Yes imo

[icy cloak]

No, because they were added with the intent to increase Heretic’s access to PvP amongst other things. It is the same reason that making Bloodray miss while a reasonable solution also takes away part of why the class has the ability in the first place

[vocal thicket]

My pov just doesnt know the math behind the m1/m2 values there, i barely know my own skills i use daily

[past cobalt]

I don't think you saw 600k bloodray on bof turn 1 with no buffs

[granite robin]

Maybe he had mimic to buff him

[icy cloak]

0ALs turn 1 damage

[vocal thicket]

Thats really fair, apex feels like a pve tool mainly

Gimme apex start to 100% and ill look the other way

[past cobalt]

What could possibly go wrong

[granite robin]

By turn "1" i mean in bof bc i usually only get 1 turn

[icy cloak]

You usually don’t get a second turn. The only way this changes is if they have a Sphinx Kit DS3

[granite robin]

Yup

[vocal thicket]

BeoA is the only “counter” from that classline in my eyes

[granite robin]

I mean beo A has no real dmg or protection vs bloodray build

[icy cloak]

And Heretic has no real protection 😅

[granite robin]

But you have the dmg

[vocal thicket]

Ive seen my low AL heretics in my kingdom struggle to gain ANY defensive power tbh

[granite robin]

Imo bloodray hard counters beoA

Atleast my ss3 version

[vocal thicket]

Am i wrong for mentioning how horrendous Dara is for pvp? Ive actually been struggling to put together something worthwhile

[radiant stratus]

I mean…Jord builds were real cancer…

[granite robin]

Not anymore

You have bloodray to hard kill jords

[icy cloak]

Yeah so… what else did your Jord SS3 lose to other than second chance and parapet and another Jord build?

Maybe defensive builds shouldn’t catch everything with full effectiveness 😅 which is part of why status builds should also exist in PvP

[radiant stratus]

Exactly. Sounds good to me.

[granite robin]

Honestly i did not use jord. I run other stuff, and i would love status builds if they werent that hard countered by other classess than beo. And base rs + most immunity gear gives too much immunitiea imo

[opaque briar]

Hi, Chrono..

[charred swift]

Maybe immunity gear shouldn't give full immunity in PvP, or be reduced by assassin gear 🤔

[sterile topaz]

How does it vary that much with AL? Because Phil with 68 was dealing x2-3 times those amounts, while my BP for example only goes from 130-140k with no AL to 210k tops with 52

[icy cloak]

Since Flask Power is m1 the raw magic gained from ALs just gets to punch through as much as possible - basically it is an unimpeded m2

[sterile topaz]

Nah, but like it has the same M1 as BP2 in pvp, at least when you use it T1

That’s why I’m surprised

[past cobalt]

Flask power multiplies m1, not m2. My m1 in those screenshots is around 21 if I'm not mistaken

[sterile topaz]

Hmmm, ok yeah, that explains it then

[grave siren]

@past cobalt hmm what about reducing gear effectiveness in PvP? Yel gear adds what, 15% or something flask power right? What if there's a hard cap on gear bonus (could also include the gear % limit to apex gear, avidity gear, collat gear etc for balance issues) so that "one hit" wonders can only be achieved via high AL or near perfect gear via att/mag stats (and maybe penetration)

[past cobalt]

Godforged yel gear gives 72.5% bonus for each piece. A cap for pvp could be introduced but I know NF prefers not to make weird distinctions like that

[grave siren]

Theoretically, would a hard 25% total (so you can have GF chest and MF legs for example) bonus cap be enough - and by enough I'm thinking enough dmg..

Well you know what, amities also contribute to these "big numbers" so idk if we should include that in our "balancing" aspect. Like, if someone with GF'ed standard quality gear managed to find a 40% crit amity, should they be able to deal more damage compared to someone with 195% GFed gear but garbage amity?

[past cobalt]

So that's not quite how it works. Godforging any quality piece gives it a 72.5% boost, so a 25% cap is way overshot by one piece

[grave siren]

Yeah fair enough. Perhaps quality should somewhat affect gear % boosts then. I just find it hilarious if GFed broken gear gave nearly the same power boost as 200% GFed gear

But yeah, perhaps a PvP hard cap on gear bonus multipliers (ward power, 2h power, flask power, apex power, summon/follower stat etc) might be helpful.

Encourages players to build up mag/att stats via quality gear and ALs instead of getting power creeping gear.

[icy cloak]

Per Heretic, I still believe the least low AL/general use screwing is to just make Bloodray only useable with a full charge. That also gives more reason to want FoC on HCorvus while not affecting PvE (much) or wrecking Flask Gear, or doing PvP vs PvE specific stuff

I understand it can affect Endless and Raids but I can’t imagine it will be nearly as much as people think - for me in Endless if Bloodray isn’t full, I can’t do enough damage with it when I need it anyway

It also assuages the complaint of Heretic doing too much damage t1 in PvP with a can’t miss skill

And I don’t believe the damage is as big of an issue when Ara’s Edge (Deity and Beo) and SS3 (Deity, Beo, and Gilga) still exist

[sterile topaz]

Those have a lot less M1, can be blocked by pets and can also be missed, though

Considering SS will soon lose its FMC*

[icy cloak]

M1 doesn’t matter as much on ascended Deity and Beo due to hybrid options. Heretic actually can’t use Ara’s Edge super effectively without some ALs and even then can be zero’d

SS3 has high m1 (especially if hybridized) - for comparison, there is no way you can survive it no matter what you’re wearing on a Heretic

Heretic Corvus is the only one with Bloodray and dies to someone farting in his general direction whereas a Gilga, Beo or Deity can sit behind walls of ward and mammoths, spamming SS3, and have second chances, and can use it on AI Defense.

I understand the concerns about Bloodray’s damage and can’t miss. But comparing the the settlement ramifications of ”I can usually take territory if my opponent doesn’t Parapet or Second Chance” (Heretic Corvus) with “I can almost always take and hold territory” (SS3) is not the same. Heretic can’t defend territory pretty much at all regardless of which but also struggles to take them (without Bloodray) especially from ward giants

And despite that, I am still of the opinion that the best option is to take away the option of t1 Bloodray from PvP.

Removing flat miss removes one of the reasons Corvus has the ability (a can’t miss finisher).

Removing damage or penetration hurts the new Heretic or low AL more than anyone else

Scaling back Flask Power (or just making it apply to Manaflasks) is another option that also sours PvE for new builds people are finding but is the second best solution (IMO) since it was what broke the ability in the first place

[opal shard]

Since its a class that doesnt have dex It would be a good idea add accuracy based ward, no?

[sterile topaz]

Comparing it against BP2, BP2 doesn't have fixed miss scaling, it can be blocked by pets, has a capped M1 in pvp, deals 2-3 times less damage while also going full glass cannon fully stacked with pact effectiveness/mag and it also can't be used on the def

And BP2 is considered strong on the offense

[icy cloak]

Per Bloodpact - okay, you’re on Summoner. You also have (at least) 2 extra bodies now that can also block (non Bloodray). You also go 2-3x deeper in Endless 😅 and are getting a cool PvP-flair GSH rework - which would survive a Bloodray with its new summon sac to survive second chance

And if you survive you could use literally anything to kill the HCorvus

Which again, per my suggestion, wouldn’t be able to Bloodray because they would be dead before the flask was charged 🤷🏽‍♂️

[faint estuary]

So, pretty much everyone seems to agree bloodray is problematic in PvP. Should one of the mods get a poll going with all the proposed solutions?

[plush badger]

You are aware it's M1 got reduced in this patch, yes?

[icy cloak]

Yes and it will still kill any Heretic build whatsoever 😅

[plush badger]

Alright, just making sure you knew that it took a not insignificant M1 hit

[sterile topaz]

Why are you bringing endless up when we are talking about bloodray dealing 800k first turn with <70AL

Not to mention Heretic is better than GS at dungeons, towers and PvP

As if endless was a big part of the game, or sum, something you run once a month

[icy cloak]

So we both agree Bloodray is a problem in PvP but you disagree with my solutions?

[sterile topaz]

I don’t disagree with any solutions, I was just comparing the damage and usefulness of both in pvp offense, and you started bringing endless up for some reason

Not being able to use it first turn might solve the issue, don’t know. But the amount of damage it deals and the fact that it can’t miss or be blocked will definitely still be a big problem

[icy cloak]

No, it really won’t - if you let a Heretic charge a flask when they have no way to survive, that is on you

In other games if you let a mage cast a spell that requires time, it’s kind of your fault

[chilly peak]

Thats a really unique and effective way of explaining that. Thank you. It provided clarity and changed my perspective.

[past cobalt]

Removing the turn 1 aspect would definitely fix most of the concerns people have with bloodray, because it immediately creates infinite ways to counterplay it

[sterile topaz]

Tell that to the AI or to any stall def build, which won’t really attack first turn and will succumb to the flask second turn. Since we are talking about Heretics using it on the offense. But still, this is most likely the best possible fix, since it makes it counterable and preserves its pve usefulness.

[last jungle]

This seems like a great solution to the problem

[mortal pawn]

Poll it

[viscid pawn]

Yea i agree it really isnt op. You sacrifice so much for it and have to play a class that cant win defense battles. Not to mention AI wont use it. Parapet stacking and second chance can give a pretty good chance to live from it. Also is the only thing that the boost really works for. PvE flask power is irrelevant. Maybe nice if it does boost m1 for endless? But still. Maybe make it an m2 buff if it is an m1 boost ig since m1 is already very high. But I dont really think it is a large issue. Biggest thing I use it for is anguish berserk farming open world :p

[viscid pawn]

Does ignore summon blocks at least 😄 but yea bp is re-usable if they get second chance and summons can kill their second and 3rd chances that are possible. Used to be always hit but paired with having 2 other bodies to guarantee 2nd chance wont work... it was too op

Ranger bp combo already pretty much always hits too and has very high damage. Terrible for defense but it was amazing for offense

[viscid pawn]

Yea but still hits really high and something similar with blood ray. Make the items an m2 boost only if what people said about it being m1 boost is true

[viscid pawn]

I mean i do 300k at 56 AL gilgy with ss3 while sacrificing damage for more defense and hp.

But my hit counters 2nd chance since collateral 😄 but yea 800k is a lot lol.

Another thing could be just not making all the gear multiplicative and make the bonus additive. Will still be plenty strong

Oh and that is as a class with 2nd chance and is far tankier

I play a lot of heretic too but I am not really impressed with full yel gear blood ray for pvp. It works worse than gilgy ss3

[icy cloak]

That hurts the Bloodray and Omniflask PvE builds people are working with right now but nerfing flask power is my second vote if not being made to require a full flask

[viscid pawn]

Yea im not a fan of not being able to use it. I dont really see much wrong with blood ray being strong atm... you sacrifice a lot to play corvus so I have found it underwhelming in pvp even on offense and just useless for defense since AI wont use it until it is full... good luck living that long. I havent messed with omniflask since the buff so idk how strong it is with that gear

Blood-ray already has extremely high m1 though so limiting it to m2 instead of m1 wouldnt destroy it but it would allow res to at least do something. That is if it actually boosts m1 atm, idk though if it does like they are saying so 🤷 just if it does swap it... if not then meh.

But could even just slightly reduce it then in pvp like ultima has been and such so it doesnt effect pve as well if it actually is a problem at higher levels.

[viscid pawn]

But that said, from my use of it i dont really think it is anything crazy. My ss3 does better on pvp offense. So I agree with you on it. Just if they decided to nerf it would rather something like this

[granite robin]

My problem with that is mostly bof guild related

The whole kit around blooray feels unfair in pvp content where you are restricted via rules that other can bypass by using charge + delay mechanic

[viscid pawn]

Still think collateral/delay strike/ avidity / sigil flask are way stronger in bof

Stack blue flask first turn as heretic ara, sigil flask and kill 100% hp on your second turn. Extra turn bypasses the 50% hp limit

Delay strike, then collateral can work to guarantee death on your second turn before enemy has 1

Or just high damage high fs delay strike as rs and kill them whenever it does proc.

Gilgy just needs to live 1 turn when 50% hp limit is around and turn 2 collateral works to kill enemy right away, even if they had second chance. Deal 50% first turn then the other 50% and their second chance next turn. While being tanky

The nerf that blocked collateral and avidity turn 1 though way back did fix the most obnoxious parts of it though

Getting the damage needed to kill someone is easy in BoF, it is turn economy that is the limiting factor which is why the 50% limit is there. So even beo is way stronger when they get pet with high enough damage and act rate to hit half and they hit half and kill turn 1

If it happens to counter 1 build somehow more than those... that is normal in this game. I use ss3 and ward a lot, base rs can 0 my ward easy with ward damage boost and their high damage if they hit me. Especially with gilgy low starting ward. Everything has a counter really

[granite robin]

Currently everything else is basicly nerfed in bof, but heretics thing.

BeoA pet cant double act on turn 1
Rs cant proc avidity turn 1
Gilga cd cant proc turn 1
Gs summons are reduced to 1 etc

[icy cloak]

And yet they can all still beat the glass cannon 😅

Heretic isn’t top dog in BoF. If it were, you’d better believe I’d be calling foul on it like I am on Bloodray

[granite robin]

To me heretic feels like its one of the top dogs

[icy cloak]

One of for sure. I mentioned yesterday I’d put Sigilflask turn abuse in the top 3 or 4 builds but it isn’t #1 because it’s on Heretic and the builds that beat it tend to not give an opponent a turn rather than giving them 1 - which even if it gets 1 it can’t do anything until #2

however, BoF rule seasons could also shake things up and make it fun in BoF 😄

[granite robin]

Yea changing rules each season would be nice

[icy cloak]

And props to you for trying weird janky builds. That is what Orna should be! Jank until something sticks

[mortal pawn]

#1437527716634296400 message

Vote!

[viscid pawn]

Those are things that could kill turn 1. And what you are suggesting nerfing isnt even strong in BoF. Sigil flask into vesta 3 is what is strong. Also beo can still kill someone from full to dead first turn or at least proc second chance. Collateral and avidity working turn 2 isnt as op as when it worked turn 1 but it is still crazy strong.

And they were only nerfed after people demonstrated ways to steamroll by getting high fs and not allowing people to even take a turn.

Also just going to say... getting enough damage to take half of someone's hp in a turn in bof is easy so... high damage attacks arent really op in BoF. Turn economy is.

[past cobalt]

Bloodray is very relevant for pve btw - it's one of my main raiding methods for anguish. It does need some help/specific builds though

[past cobalt]

Heretic's thing is NOT turn 1 😂 it's charge turn 1, then use flasks to skip turns to break the rules

[past cobalt]

And one point of clarity, reducing penetration on the poll also means reducing the overall damage of the spell, not just penetration, yeah? And are these options pvp only?

[sterile topaz]

The moment someone has just a bit of AL the summons become useless, since they have no AL scaling and they very easily start missing or getting zeroed out, so it’s not as good as it may seem

[sterile topaz]

It’s better with Nolan’s and sequencer, but still, going full mag/pact effectiveness you are looking at 212k at most, with 52AL, and that was against an arcanic. it usually hits for 180-200k, and the moment you start using the Nolan’s to not miss you’re dealing 130-150k

So yeah, definitely a lot less damage than Bloodray and SS and against people with similar AL it doesn’t work clearing SC procs, while also being awful defensively

And it doesn’t matter if it’s re-usable if you’re dead next turn, and only really need to deal 1 hp to kill them, where you
can just use sands of Aaru, for example

[radiant stratus]

For those reasons I honestly believe that even taking the turn 1 option out is a mistake. It is nothing new. And there’s a lot of classes that can do the same. How have people been defending against ss3? Parapet and block. How about a beo? Same. The problem isn’t blood ray. It’s PvP in general. The thing is heretic doesn’t get ANYTHING else. And all of this is with no defense, ever. And without access to it in defense. Be real. This is just about settlements. Which is still meant to be high turnover. Ain’t nobody losing to a heretic when the heretic is defending.

The longer this debate goes, the more I think that blood ray is needed just to compete in any content. Not just PvP. If everyone was playing by the same rules, it wouldn’t be an issue. The reason it was added was because of dex issues. People say it’s addressed. But it’s really not because investing in dex doesn’t allow me to hit hard at all. While my opponent can have both high defenses and dex.

In the end everyone is comparing blood ray to other skills and saying we all need a pet to stop all of them. Is that a blood ray problem?

[radiant stratus]

I’d love the option of no changes. I refuse to agree to nerf the only viable thing I’ve had in heretic against this ridiculous meta. Heretic spent 2 years in the PvP dumpster. It’s been good on offense for 2 months. That’s crazy. They need to deal with other stuff first, stuff that’s never dealt with. I refuse to have the class be useless again. In orn gear at f250+ I start needing blood ray to deal with any berserk. Any nerfs to it will put us back in the dark ages. Any hit will end the run. And for PvP simply it’s the only option. Nothing else works to deal as much damage to the kind of builds that are out there. The class is designed to be a one shot class. So we’re gonna give up the one skill that is a one shot in a one shot meta with no way to survive past turn 1. Nah.

Excuse the typos. Can’t double check the spelling

[opal shard]

I would nerf ara sigils for pvp since It can deal milions of damage and you cant defend it in any way

[icy cloak]

My local Gilga opponents would like a word with you. Their 1.2m ward Bone Mammoths tank my AV3 Sigilstorm even while they have Gunnr and I have iconoclast