#Patch - Fishing Changes

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late saffron
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šŸŸ

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I would (in context of general) say that fishing fights are a bit irrelevant to the coral price change. Losing the fight doesn't significantly affect coral income

crude jasper
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i think that change should be announced before so. i can understand @shy wagon he feels kinda betrayed just lowering the value of his farmed corals

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i know that happened similar to other things like raid scrolls

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i was pissed aswell

late saffron
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Fishing is much easier to participate, but I'd also like to consider the power of scrolls from t7-t9. If it's nerfed this much, those progressing t7-9 will have a harder time compared to those who have used fishing before

I also do see that progression relying on something like fishing is definitely unfavorable šŸ˜‚

humble sable
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(from what i have seen) Main concerns are:

  • Price was changed too much, 1000 might be more fitting #šŸ‘‹ā”‚general message
  • This change makes farming scrolls harder in early-mid game leading to more difficult accessibility of Raids like fey Yeti #1432761545162756173 message
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-# And a general frustration of a (favourite) guild being less profitable now

late saffron
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1000 is reasonable imo, but Im not sure what the perspective is for people who fish vs people who donā€™t

wide depot
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Conqueror's guild is a relatively new source of scroll income fwiw

late saffron
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Time spent is something to consider, but difficulty as well. Fish are a much less difficult pursuit than anguish 40 towers šŸ« 

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Conq guild is a potential substitute, especially considering itā€™s a passive income that isnā€™t absurdly efficient. Underworld portals too, but they are t9 dungeons iirc

humble sable
late saffron
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As a player who does pretty consistently, i just dont feel like itā€™s a viable scroll source anymore. Considering the alternative of materials for coral, id much rather spend it on mats

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Time spent to get so few scrolls just isnt it, no matter how easy fishing is imo

wide depot
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I like fishing as an afk thing while I'm doing something IRL. I don't have to really look at my screen, I just double/triple tap and rely on vibration. It's fine to receive less rewards from this.

If there is a rework that rewards active play, that would be a better way to increase rewards in the future

late saffron
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Iā€™ve always silently thought fishing should be more active with something similar to mnemonics

wide depot
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Yeah I expect a future rework may add something

unreal oyster
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Iā€™d argue the price is appropriate for such a low investment activity. It was way way too low previously, which is way it had to be increased significantly

late saffron
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Itā€™s to the point where itā€™s just not worth it imo to spend coral on scrolls anymore

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Simply too high of a price for the time invested

wide depot
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I wanna put one thing out there - the argument that "early tier progression will be hindered" is a poor argument IMO.

Early tier progression is already insanely fast at the moment and the "fast track" should definitely not be fishing for hours and then asking people to come kill your raids in general chat

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While shortcuts like this may sound nice for established players looking to level up an alt, this is a very poor gaming experience for new players that:

  • Does not teach them anything about the game
  • Is not engaging gameplay
  • Rewards minimal effort
  • Leads them to be disinterested in the game loop at best, burned out and helpless when they reach tier 10 at worst
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There are loads of interesting ways to progress the game at early tiers, fishing is not one of them

verbal glacier
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change is good, devs should hit mat prices too

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i dont understand why there was a mechanic that allowed you to (sometimes, for some people) literally afk gain absurd amounts of rewards for ???

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i think the most efficient way to grind mats/dm should be playing the base game

candid delta
# wide depot I wanna put one thing out there - the argument that "early tier progression will...

I agree that the "early tier progression will be hindered" argument is bogus.
This change does nothing to solve the fast progression problem.

Right now over-leveling is already seen as a big problem.
The largest issue cited is that they can easily reach a high level without the equipment to actually play at that level.
All this does is make it harder to find the right gear.

If people wanna power-level fast there's still an overwhelming surplus of EXP from world raids.

Just one 7-star raid (the first horseman) has ~389m exp from a clear.
T6 (gazer) seems to give around ~278m EXP (from my logs)
Event raids seem to give more (~550m for 7* Sekhmet)

Running the numbers (in number of raids to hit next tier)

+-------+--------+--------+------------+
| Level |   T6   |   T7   | T7 (event) |
+-------+--------+--------+------------+
|   125 |   1.71 |   1.22 |       0.87 |
|   150 |  10.47 |   7.48 |       5.29 |
|   175 |  63.34 |  45.26 |      32.01 |
|   200 | 380.49 | 271.92 |     192.32 |
+-------+--------+--------+------------+

30-40 scrolls to get from T6 to T9 (and unlocking summoner) is still quite do-able with the increased costs,
or even just getting them mostly/entirely without fishing.

What has been made much harder is finding the right raid to get gear that you want

Aside from the suddenness of the cost increase,
my main complaint that that it does nothing to solve the surplus of EXP from raids issue,
while just making it harder to find specific raid spawns.

I've accumulated so many (80+) extra raids in search of Fey Yetis that I refuse to do for now since I don't wanna overlevel.
My current Fey Yeti % is probably around 3-5% of the scrolls I've used.

Fishing was a tool that greatly helped address the summon scroll RNG,
and that tool has been greatly diminished with no warning.

wide depot
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Fishing doesn't reduce scroll RNG, it just floods you with scrolls. If you want to get specific raids from scrolls, just ask for help from people

candid delta
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Is there RNG manipulation for summon scrolls? šŸ¤Ø

wide depot
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Relying on mass amounts of scrolls is just part of the issue that fishing has created

wide depot
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You can trade off raids with others. Some higher tier players might be fine with trading their fey yetis for whatever other raids you get

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There are discord channels set up for sharing raids with others

candid delta
wide depot
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That is a fair point and an issue I've complained about before

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Raids need that button that lowers the agony level

candid delta
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agreed

wide depot
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All of this is off topic anyway - the changes to fishing are not aiming to fix this problem

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You can definitely try to coordinate with kingdom mates to get fey yetis though

candid delta
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I'd argue that it is at least partly on topic since the adjustment was meant to hit raiding/memory-hunts specifically?

Though definitely not directly about fishing.

wide depot
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What I meant is that this change is not about "fixing the rng of raid summons"

candid delta
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ah

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gotcha

wide depot
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Or about nerfing the early game power leveling

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It might help a little but not the main point

wise prawn
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Hello, I don't understand why the price of DM and scrolls from fishing are multiplied by 4. It doesn't make rational sense since the game is becoming even worse in matter of farming with anguish content

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Just change the price according to Tier, T11 cost is lower than T10 to avoid farm abusing from alt / low level players

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I don't understand why NF tries to fix problems by creating new ones

grizzled prism
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A price that scales downwards to T11 would both make the above early progressions points significantly worse while not addressing the underlying economy issue that the new prices address. Iā€™m not sure I quite get it

grave pumice
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nah this is insane. 4x the price for something you already need to kill around 180 raid bosses to go from 233 to 234. That's without counting how long it takes to farm for good gears from those bosses. All this does is that now you have to spend 4x more time fishing (the most boring activity of the game) just to be able to kill some bosses. I don't really understand why would they increase the grinding of the most boring part of the game, what does this balance?

grizzled prism
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This is all an effort to reward thing. A passive and effortless activity should not have yielded more scrolls/DMs than an activity that required moderate effort

It should yield rewards, but not outclass active play. The numbers should currently achieve that

grave pumice
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nope, it's still the best way to get scrolls in my opinion. It just makes progress way slower for nothing

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there's no incentive to engage in other activities

wide depot
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"There's no incentive to play the game, the best way to spend my time is afk tapping the screen for hours a day and logging off"

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"Why do I have to play the game to progress"

grizzled prism
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If itā€™s currently the best scroll source after a 4x adjustment, then that highlights a massive disparity in content acquisition sources before

wide depot
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"I want to play the game the least amount of time possible with the least amount of engagement possible, why am I being nerfed"

tardy fog
wide depot
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I'm not mocking the person - some opinions deserve to be mocked

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Everyone's allowed opinions but not all opinions have the same value

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I'll tone it down

grave pumice
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it would be a good mock if that was actually the case. I want to play the game a lot (I've actually been playing it a lot). And I want to keep it that way. What has kept me engaged is how much fun stuff there was to do up to this lvl (I'm 233). Now the only way to lvl up is to kill hundreds of raid bosses and all the other content seems to be repetitive grinding aswell (some more fun, some not so much). The problem for me is that insane amount of grinding in orther to unlock novelty. Doing a repetitive action with no variations whatsoever is fine for a while, but I need novelty to keep engaged and to feel I'm progressing

grizzled prism
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The midgame grind issues are definitely something weā€™re aware of, but not something weā€™d like to solve with a minigame like fishing

grave pumice
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I agree with that. Fishing was just good because of how overpowered it was. But I don't think nerfing it before introducing anything to fix the midgame grind is the play

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for example, at this point there is not much incentive to walk (which is why I downloaded the game in the first place). All the other content gives so much more than actually walking. If the intention was to remove rewards from pasive play and engage in more active play, we would need to reward players more for walking around

wide depot
late saffron
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As someone who does fish consistently, the fix destroyed its scroll potential. Iā€™d much rather farm towers and even normal dungeons than spend 2k a scroll

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Though i think the difference in my perspective and that of those who support this nerfā€™s magnitude is the value put on time vs value put on effort

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The hours of minimal effort is just not worth 7-9 scrolls from the net coral income at the 500 cap imo

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And even then, hitting mat prices similarly will just wreck fishing. Anguish is already stronger imo, not even considering that anguish gets 2 mat selections per path

unreal oyster
wise prawn
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Great so now people farm less scrolls overall, for spending even more time doing "engaging" content like towers. Very enjoyable as T9 indeed

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Maybe you prepare new contents to farm scroll with engaging content then it would be, in fact, a solution to your problem

grizzled prism
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I believe we may be going in circles at this point

To summarize this thread:

  • There needs to be more ways to progress mid to late game (studio agrees)
  • While fishing was filling that gap, that was only due to economy issue
  • We have not been able to confidently suggest the passive player should be more rewarding than active play
wise prawn
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Then at this point also nerf Conqueror guild, it's way too much ressources for the time spent vs fishing + DM or scroll

grizzled prism
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If you can provide some data to demonstrate a significant gap of activity to rewards among the guilds, letā€™s do that

wise prawn
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Then give me access to your api

zinc belfry
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Its entirely possible to gather such data without requiring the devs open or create api endpoints that are publically available

late saffron
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I agree that the active player should always be earning more than the passive player. A large concern of mine is how especially t9 and (early, mid) t10 when raiding is especially important to find gear to progress, can obtain sufficient quantities of scrolls to meet those needs.

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Fishing should not have been as powerful as it was, and certainly should not have been the primary source of scrolls (across pretty much all levels) as an easy, low effort activity. Iā€™d imagine that there should be something to partially replace that (possibly through making some other (active) guilds a viable scroll source? Probably better ways to do this but just putting this as an example)

wide depot
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Conqueror's guild exists now

zinc belfry
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Monumental Guild has Summoning Scrolls at only 30 Proof of Monument, and while dependent on if the event has many monsters/bosses in Monuments, that seems like a pretty good source of scrolls for active play. Average Scrolls per Monuments (or Monument per Scroll) vary heavily depending on the event and tier.

Conqueror's Guild is 15 Proof of Crownship, which while dependent on your ability to travel a good bit and PvP. After you do, you can earn one a day (ish). Not a good source, but consistent as heck.

Traveler's Guild is 8 Proof of Distance, which is very RNG on if you get those to appear as Traveler's Intutition, otherwise its 3 (?) per day for reaching 10k steps. (1 at 3k steps, 2 at 10k steps?).

Blades of Finesse is 50 Proofs of Sparring. If you can find another player outside the T10/T11 BoF bracket, and assuming you're a strong PvP player, you can earn 1 Scroll in 12 matches (60 A.Tokens; Assuming you win every match from 0 win streak) or just 10 matches (50 A.Tokens; Assuming you win every match from a 5 win streak). Possible, but unlikely. More likely is fighting the BoF Monsters for 1 Proof per Win, needing 50 wins (250 A.Tokens) for 1 Scroll.

Spelunking Guild is 250 Deepshards. Not sure what this looks like tbh. I know what the average rates are for T4 and T11. T4 Avg is 25 Shards/Deep, T11 is 100 Shards/Deep, so somewhere between 10-3 Deeps per Scroll.

Titanfelled Guild is 5000 Tower Shards, but is also a T9+ guild. I have no data on this, someone else fill in here.

Circle of Anguish doesn't sell Summoning Scrolls.

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Seer's Guild is 50 Proofs of Remembrance. 10 Memory Hunts, which could just be 10 Mnemonics, but you also get 1 proof when Recollecting. Assuming casually getting 1 DM per day from Concurrence, 10 Days for 1 Scroll just from Seer's Guild, without Recollection.
Otherwise, this gets into fun math on (potentially) maximizing player gains by buying Mnemonics from other guilds, to use them (gaining lots of profits from those alone), and using the Proofs of Remembrance to then buy scrolls.

DM Prices:

  • 50 Proof of Monument
  • Unavailable in Conqueror's
  • 15 Proof of Distance
  • 50 Proof of Sparring
  • 250 Deepshards
  • 5000 Tower Shards
  • 200 Proofs of Melancholy (currently? idk how this guild works, lmao)
wide depot
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Agony yetis also drop extra

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Though that would mostly be a t10 thing

snow geyser
# grizzled prism I believe we may be going in circles at this point To summarize this thread: ...

Anecdotal but I think the part that needs the most help is t9. Most of my friends I got into the game stop playing at t9. Its the combination of much slower progression without many new additions, for many casual players towers feel impossible and the content they had access to feels stale.

Probably a minor thing for most players, but simple change, but when I was leveling many moons ago I always liked being able to hunt world bosses a tier above. But t9 players cant see t10 bosses and that was a disappointment for me